NationStates Jolt Archive


The retired generals speak for those serving?

Daistallia 2104
15-04-2006, 12:34
I suspect this won't lead to changing many minds, but have a look anyways...

Anti-Rumsfeld Chorus Grows
Some military leaders question the public criticism as another retired general urges Defense chief to resign.
By Peter Spiegel and Paul Richter, Times Staff Writers
April 13, 2006

WASHINGTON — A recent surge in public criticism of Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld by retired military leaders is the culmination of months of intense but largely private debate among active duty officers about how best to voice dissent over Bush administration policies, according to officers involved in the discussions.

A number of officers have been critical of Iraq policy — mostly anonymously — since the administration's early days. But the calls for Rumsfeld's resignation are an unusual step for members of the military, who are acutely sensitive to the appearance of challenging civilian leadership of the armed forces.

Displays of public dissension are especially controversial while troops are at war and morale is a concern. In recent months, however, a growing concern that the war's setbacks may have been predictable as well as avoidable has spilled into public view.

The officers said that challenges to civilian policy were not new — similar opposition flared during the Clinton administration, particularly around the issue of gays in the military. But many of the latest condemnations come from officers who served in the Iraq war, and the controversy has split the ranks over whether attacks by those officers so soon after retiring are appropriate.

One current general who has debated the issue with high-ranking colleagues spoke, like others, on condition of anonymity when discussing actions of other officers.

"If every guy that retires starts sniping at their old bosses and acts like a political appointee, how do you think senior civilians start choosing their military leaders?" the general said. "Competence goes out the window. It's all about loyalty and pliability."

The ranks of Rumsfeld's critics were joined Wednesday by retired Army Maj. Gen. John Batiste, who served as a division commander in Iraq and was a military aide to former Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz, a primary architect of the Iraq invasion.

Batiste said he believed Rumsfeld should resign, arguing that the Pentagon needed a new leader who could work with top officers "without intimidation."

In an interview, Batiste said negative feelings about Rumsfeld were widespread among generals he served with. He added that there was an almost universal belief that the secretary did not treat military leaders and their opinions with respect.

"It speaks volumes about the leadership climate within the Pentagon," Batiste said. "Civilian control is absolutely paramount, but in order for it to work, there is a two-way street of respect and dialogue that has to exist."

Batiste's criticism follows similar attacks by three other retired generals who were involved in the Iraq war or served in top positions in the Middle East: Marine Lt. Gen. Gregory S. Newbold, former director of operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff; Army Maj. Gen. Paul D. Eaton, head of training Iraqi forces in 2003; and Marine Gen. Anthony C. Zinni, the former head of U.S. Central Command.

Former Defense officials said Batiste's criticisms were particularly surprising because of his direct role in planning and fighting the war, first as Wolfowitz's military aide and then as commander of the 1st Infantry Division when it was deployed to oversee central Iraq in 2004.

"Batiste is really the younger generation who has seen this war firsthand," said Thomas E. White, the Bush administration's first secretary of the Army and a frequent Rumsfeld critic. "When a guy like that steps up, it takes it to an entirely different level."

Batiste said his comments were not part of any organized campaign by retired officers.

Although he has worked with Eaton and Newbold, Batiste said he had not talked to either about his decision to go public.

The officers' falling out with Rumsfeld began over the Defense Department's treatment of retired Army Gen. Eric K. Shinseki, who said at a congressional hearing that several hundred thousand troops would be needed to occupy Iraq, only to be chastised later by Wolfowitz.

The shunting aside of Shineski appears to be something of a touchstone for military critics of Rumsfeld, particularly in the Army, where Shinseki is still well regarded.

One current general said that while the recent criticisms may have brought the uniformed military's strained relationship with Rumsfeld into the open, debate over whether they should be more forceful about voicing disagreements had raged for months.

"The Newbolds and Eatons and the public discussion is spilling over from the internal discussion," said the currently serving general. "This has been a rising issue within the military."

Criticism of political leaders by retired generals is nothing new. Historians note that former military leaders dating back to the American Revolution have written criticisms of the conduct of wars, and Rumsfeld dismissed many of the criticisms this week as just the latest in that tradition.

"It's historic, it's always been the case, and I see nothing really very new or surprising about it," he said at a Pentagon news conference.

But Andrew J. Bacevich, a professor of international relations at Boston University and a Vietnam veteran, said he believed it was unprecedented for retired senior officers who had so recently served during a war to criticize civilian leaders while troops were still in the field.

"I would take this as evidence that the search for scapegoats with regard to the Iraq war has now been fully engaged by the military," Bacevich said.

"The officer corps doesn't want to get stuck with responsibility for a war that has already proven to be a disappointment and could result in failure. This is an indication that Rumsfeld has been selected as the military's preferred scapegoat," he said.

The debate within the Pentagon has been influenced by the lessons of the Vietnam War, a conflict many current military leaders believe was lost because military chiefs did not stand up to civilian war plans.

A 1997 book on the subject, "Dereliction of Duty," by H.R. McMaster, now an Army colonel serving in Iraq, has been required reading for many Pentagon officers.

"There was a deep bitterness over Vietnam and the way the [service] chiefs had been co-opted," said Richard H. Kohn, a military historian at the University of North Carolina who oversaw McMaster's work on the book.

Kohn said it was a lesson sent repeatedly to all Army officers: "They said: 'We're never going to put up with this again, we're not going to be put in that position again by the civilians.' "

Nevertheless, Kohn, who has discussed relations with civilian leaders with several top officers, said he believed it might be dangerous for such recently retired generals to go public with such criticism.

"If they go out and attack the policy after leaving and they get personal about it, they're undermining civilian control," Kohn said.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-general13apr13,0,3539237.story?coll=la-home-headlines

(All emphasis mine.)
Tropical Sands
15-04-2006, 12:36
The only time they can speak freely and let us know what is going on is after they retire. They are really the only honest and accurate voices out there. So yes, I would have to say that the retired speak for those serving better than those still serving speak for themselves.
BackwoodsSquatches
15-04-2006, 12:47
This farce of a war is wearing on our troops.

Its easy to wave the flag, and scream "Support Our Troops!", but when the best way to support them is to bring them home, its not so easy to be quite so patriotic is it?

This isnt now, nor ever was a conflict in wich the average soldier can be proud to have participated in.
Theres no honor in it, above just generally serving your country when called.

The guy who is the Veterans Service Administrator for my home county said it best when he found out he had been re-activated.

"I'll go, because I have to, not because I feel good about it."

These Generals are speaking out about the ineptness, and blatantly wrong way this war was started, carried out, and is continuing to be handled.
I think its absolutely crucial that we hear them.

I think they do speak for the average soldier.
Tactical Grace
15-04-2006, 12:53
To cite another example, I think it's pretty clear-cut how every knowledgeable figure leaving the western oil industry ceases to talk about Peak Oil in evasive terms, and conceeds it is a reality. An man within a company or organisation always has vested interests, even if it is a simple case of keeping their record clean. A retired man has no interests.

Politicians too are a good example of this, witness Foreign Secretary Robin Cook's conversion from a cheerleader for the destruction of Serbia, to an outspoken critic of the war in Iraq, once no longer a senior figure. A whole load of people come out with "wtf, they said that?!" revelations once they no longer have to tow the line.

Thus I am inclined to believe a retired officer far more than a serving officer, because a question of integrity hangs over those who serve, not over those who have completed their work.
New Arpad
15-04-2006, 13:16
I don't know how it is in the US but over here soldiers/officers are legally obliged to stay out of any political discussion when they are wearing (literally wearing!) a uniform. I would not be surprised if there were similar regulations for soldiers in "civilian clothes" who are still speaking AS soldiers.

I suppose that such laws are probably necessary so that an army can actually do its job which is why I am glad that former officers take themselves the time to say what still serving soldiers may only think.



BTW, *I* am not against the military but one should never ever make the mistake to think that an army is democratic. It might genuinly be dedicated to serving a democracy, but it cannot be really democratic itself. That's actually also why I am all for the draft because it is literally impossible to shut up ALL drafted soldiers who have served their time. It is a form of democratic control imho.
CanuckHeaven
15-04-2006, 14:49
Perhaps this is the root of the problem?

http://img.coxnewsweb.com/C/07/80/38/image_1638807.gif

In regards to Rumsfeld, there has been problems with his role in all of this right from the beginning, and has mushroomed since. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that Bush surrounds himself with "yes" men, and Rummy seems to fill the bill.
Neu Leonstein
15-04-2006, 14:53
The problem is exacerbated by the fact that Bush surrounds himself with "yes" men, and Rummy seems to fill the bill.
Rumsfeld is not a yes-man. He never was.

He is one of the most forceful, most intelligent, and most hard-working people out there. Obviously he's going to offend all sorts of people. Personally, I don't even think the whole transformation agenda is so bad (although I have a number of things to add to it).

The problem is just that he's going for the wrong side.
Gauthier
15-04-2006, 14:56
Perhaps this is the root of the problem?

http://img.coxnewsweb.com/C/07/80/38/image_1638807.gif

In regards to Rumsfeld, there has been problems with his role in all of this right from the beginning, and has mushroomed since. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that Bush surrounds himself with "yes" men, and Rummy seems to fill the bill.

Not to mention there seems to be an inexhaustible of supply of Busheviks, especially online -coughcoughCommunalPropertycoughcough-
Gauthier
15-04-2006, 14:59
He is one of the most forceful, most intelligent, and most hard-working people out there. Obviously he's going to offend all sorts of people. Personally, I don't even think the whole transformation agenda is so bad (although I have a number of things to add to it).

The problem is just that he's going for the wrong side.

Unlike SDs in the past, Rumsfeld has taken a direct hand in the screening process for promoting three-star generals to four-stars and is known for being obstinate. That alone screams "micromanager" and the way things are going so far, he's one of the most horrible military micromanagers in history.
Tactical Grace
15-04-2006, 15:03
Unlike SDs in the past, Rumsfeld has taken a direct hand in the screening process for promoting three-star generals to four-stars and is known for being obstinate. That alone screams "micromanager" and the way things are going so far, he's one of the most horrible military micromanagers in history.
LOL, now I have Jeremy and his uber-micro from Pure Pwnage in my head. :D

Kyle: "C'mon, it's just one loss. It's no big deal. You could have got that flametank."

Jeremy: "I could have got that flametank, Kyle. I could have got that flametank. But I didn't. I just wasn't looking. Micro on three fronts. One flametank. Let him take out my whole base. Lost to a noob. One flametank. And then the world changes."
CanuckHeaven
15-04-2006, 15:20
Rumsfeld is not a yes-man. He never was.

He is one of the most forceful, most intelligent, and most hard-working people out there. Obviously he's going to offend all sorts of people. Personally, I don't even think the whole transformation agenda is so bad (although I have a number of things to add to it).

The problem is just that he's going for the wrong side.
I have to disagree.

Plans For Iraq Attack Began On 9/11 (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/04/september11/main520830.shtml)

If Rummy wasn't a "yes man", then he wouldn't still be Bush's push toy.

The "yes men" (http://www.theyesmen.org/tryem/sources.shtml)
Ultraextreme Sanity
15-04-2006, 16:04
I suspect this won't lead to changing many minds, but have a look anyways...


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-general13apr13,0,3539237.story?coll=la-home-headlines

(All emphasis mine.)



The ranks of Rumsfeld's critics were joined Wednesday by retired Army Maj. Gen. John Batiste, who served as a division commander in Iraq and was a military aide to former Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz, a primary architect of the Iraq invasion.

Batiste said he believed Rumsfeld should resign, arguing that the Pentagon needed a new leader who could work with top officers "without intimidation."

In an interview, Batiste said negative feelings about Rumsfeld were widespread among generals he served with. He added that there was an almost universal belief that the secretary did not treat military leaders and their opinions with respect.



You have a bunch a guys who think Rummy is a prick for a boss.
Nothing to do with the WAR and its reults or direction .

They cant stand him because he's a hard ass . There's a bunch of other generals that are on the other side of the fence and appreciate a civilian with big balls as a leader.
others think civilians should shut up and listen to them ...after all they are the experts...or so they seem to think . This shits been going on since the first general had to work for a civilian ....if you think this is something study up on McArthur and his cabal ..he and his crew make these generals look like a bunch of whineing pussies .
Neu Leonstein
16-04-2006, 01:07
I have to disagree.

Plans For Iraq Attack Began On 9/11 (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/04/september11/main520830.shtml)

If Rummy wasn't a "yes man", then he wouldn't still be Bush's push toy.

The "yes men" (http://www.theyesmen.org/tryem/sources.shtml)
What exactly do you mean by "Yes Man"?

Rumsfeld clearly has his own agenda, his own goals and he pursues them with all his considerable strength.
Bush is the yes man in the administration. He's the one who never makes a decision, who doesn't have a clear view of the world, who wouldn't understand half of the intricacies he's faced with.

But the people around him have been in this business for decades. They know exactly what they are doing.
Undelia
16-04-2006, 01:22
The problem is exacerbated by the fact that Bush surrounds himself with "yes" men, and Rummy seems to fill the bill.
What? You actually think Bush makes and major decisions? He’s Reagan II, he lets his cabinet handle everything.
Desperate Measures
16-04-2006, 02:11
What? You actually think Bush makes and major decisions? He’s Reagan II, he lets his cabinet handle everything.
But Reagan knew he was an actor. Bush doesn't really know that he's just for show and I think he actually does make decisions to the horror of Cheney et al. Bush sort of has this wide eyed innocence about him that is almost endearing. I'm sure lonely cat ladies love him.
Dobbsworld
16-04-2006, 02:18
But the people around him have been in this business for decades. They know exactly what they are doing.
Pity they're all unelected officials, then isn't it? I mean, if they know exactly what they're doing, it's a shame they're not beholden to the electorate - in order to make it abundantly clear to all concerned just what the game-plan really is.

This administration has all the transparency of a lump of coal.
Neu Leonstein
16-04-2006, 02:26
This administration has all the transparency of a lump of coal.
Exactly.

Don't get me wrong, I think Rumsfeld does horrible things. But you have to agree that he is very, very good at what he does. If he was going for different things, he'd be a role model.

My point was mainly that I disagreed with the idea that Bush is pulling the strings and everyone around him simply agrees. I don't think Bush is enough of a politican or leader to be able to do such a thing.
Daistallia 2104
16-04-2006, 06:08
You have a bunch a guys who think Rummy is a prick for a boss.
Nothing to do with the WAR and its reults or direction .

They cant stand him because he's a hard ass . There's a bunch of other generals that are on the other side of the fence and appreciate a civilian with big balls as a leader.
others think civilians should shut up and listen to them ...after all they are the experts...or so they seem to think . This shits been going on since the first general had to work for a civilian ....if you think this is something study up on McArthur and his cabal ..he and his crew make these generals look like a bunch of whineing pussies .

I wonder where the respect for decorated combat veterans that used to be a cornerstone of the right has gone?

Perhapse it evaporated when the deserter and the deferer came into office???