NationStates Jolt Archive

Do you believe in it?

Those who do not adapt, become victims of Evolution.

I believe evolution occurs.

I believe in evolution. At the same time, I also believe in a higher power (not neccesarily the "Judeo-Christian anti-abortion kill all gays" God.) I believe that the universe wasn't "created" by God (lets just call it that) "God" can and does manifest itself in material forms. God is everything and everyone. Sometimes, God will specifically manifest itself in one person and that person will sort of become a "half-man half-god" and is worshipped by some people. :p

Evolution is part of The Conspiracy.

And that conspiracy is what, may I ask?

Yep. Being a scientist, I'm more inclined to look at the hard evidence rather than bowing to blind faith.

Why do you ask? :confused:

And that conspiracy is what, may I ask?
The

I believe in evolution. At the same time, I also believe in a higher power (not neccesarily the "Judeo-Christian anti-abortion kill all gays" God.) I believe that the universe wasn't "created" by God (lets just call it that) "God" can and does manifest itself in material forms. God is everything and everyone. Sometimes, God will specifically manifest itself in one person and that person will sort of become a "half-man half-god" and is worshipped by some people. :p

I more thnk that God is a grad student, working on his project, and dropped something funny into the test tube, et voila! Bet he passes with flying colours!

Do you believe in it?

I think biological evolution is as real as the science that makes airplanes and skyscrapers. Don't need much 'belief' to be convinced by the truckload of supporting data.

Do you believe in it?
Yes, I believe in accumulative change, as I see it happening all around me and within me everyday.

That’s like asking if you believe in breathing. Of course I do. Fuck, I’m not stupid.

I'm not saying I believe God created the world in six days, and he got a virgin pregnant, and that Native Americans are descendants of the Jews. (One christian sect actually believes that.) We just finished studying evolution in a science class I'm taking (I'm a student.) I believe in all of that: natural selection, adaptation, speciation, we're related to monkeys, etc. etc. etc. At the same time, I also believe that there is something greater than us and yea, I do put my "blind faith" in that.

Those who do not adapt, become victims of Evolution.


I was about to say that its ok, evolution believes in you, until your sig reminded me of where I heard it..

No. All life was created by ancestor spirits in the Dreamtime.

what the hell have you been smoking? :mp5:

After seeing so many of the "highly-evolved" humans in the world I would say "no". Nature should start over with the Platypus as the dominate species.

After seeing so many of the "highly-evolved" humans in the world I would say "no". Nature should start over with the Platypus as the dominate species.
*wipes out all of humanity just for Big Jim P*

*wipes out all of humanity just for Big Jim P*

Thank You. The check is in the mail.

*wipes out all of humanity just for Big Jim P*

Thank Neo I'm a platypus.

big JIm P! Wassup man? No, no, no. Not the platypus, but the chimp. Chimps rule dammit! :headbang: (I just put that smily in because I felt like it.)

After seeing so many of the "highly-evolved" humans in the world I would say "no". Nature should start over with the Platypus as the dominate species.

But they *ARE* the dominant species. The whole purpose of humanity is for platypus conservation, my un-beaked non-leathery egg-laying friend.

big JIm P! Wassup man? No, no, no. Not the platypus, but the chimp. Chimps rule dammit! :headbang: (I just put that smily in because I felt like it.)

Sorry, Humans are already under-evolved chimps as it is. No use repeating a mistake.

Sorry, Humans are already under-evolved chimps as it is. No use repeating a mistake.

Yeah, I guess ur right. The squirrel! That is the perfect animal to rule the world.

Sorry, Humans are already under-evolved chimps as it is. No use repeating a mistake.
What if we give them laser vision and make then 25 feet tall? They'll have steel skin and speak every language in the world and have extremely long penises.

Sorry, Humans are already under-evolved chimps as it is. No use repeating a mistake.

I agree. Did you know there is more genetic variation in your average group of chimpanzees than there is in the entire human race?

And humans cook their food. How revolting!

What if we give them laser vision and make then 25 feet tall? They'll have steel skin and speak every language in the world and have extremely long penises.

Even the females? :eek:

Even the females? :eek:
What? Oh, I forgot about them. They can stay alive, but we'll remove their vocal cords.

I agree. Did you know there is more genetic variation in your average group of chimpanzees than there is in the entire human race?

And humans cook their food. How revolting!

Did u know that if u play Hit Me Baby One More Time backwards youll hear "sleep with me im not too young"

Did u know that if u play Hit Me Baby One More Time backwards youll hear "sleep with me im not too young"

As a platypus I find it difficult to spin records backwards.

As a platypus I find it difficult to spin records backwards.
Then you must be genetically modified.

What? Oh, I forgot about them. They can stay alive, but we'll remove their vocal cords.

And we will never hear the saccharine-sweet high voices of anime babes ever again? Banish the thought!

OK, now show of hands. How many people believe in gravity?

OK, now show of hands. How many people believe in gravity?
I believe in intelligent falling.

OK, now show of hands. How many people believe in gravity?

Gravity is not mentioned in the dreamtime legends, so therefore I say it doesn't exist.

Then you must be genetically modified.
This is why my brain has been transplanted into a tank. Do you like my treads? Still makes it hard to fiddle with sound equipment.

OK, now show of hands. How many people believe in gravity?

Gravity is bunk. I just saw Chuck Norris do a high roundhouse kick.

Gravity is bunk. I just saw Chuck Norris do a high roundhouse kick.
Everyone knows Chuck Norris has jet fueled boots.

Gravity is not mentioned in the dreamtime legends, so therefore I say it doesn't exist.
Now that I think about it, when this guy killed a rainbow with his boomerang because it stole his girlfriend, the rainbow fell down. Therefore I believe that gravity is created by falling rainbows.

Everyone knows Chuck Norris has jet fueled boots.

The only reason Chuck Norris wears seat belts in airplanes is so he can take the plane with him when he flies.

While I'm not a scientist as you hear about in the news, I do tend to think of myself as one, and as such I believe in evolution. I do believe in a higher power, however, and feel that the Christian bible speaks figuratively rather than literally. I think that this "higher power" or God if you prefer, had an active hand in the way that things evolved. There are also some examples which show an unguided evolution to be very unlikely, such as bats. A blind rat with sensitive ears surviving long enough to adapt sonar is simply too unlikely.

While I'm not a scientist as you hear about in the news, I do tend to think of myself as one, and as such I believe in evolution. I do believe in a higher power, however, and feel that the Christian bible speaks figuratively rather than literally. I think that this "higher power" or God if you prefer, had an active hand in the way that things evolved. There are also some examples which show an unguided evolution to be very unlikely, such as bats. A blind rat with sensitive ears surviving long enough to adapt sonar is simply too unlikely.
It's only unlikely if it started out blind. One feature became more useful than the other.

The only reason Chuck Norris wears seat belts in airplanes is so he can take the plane with him when he flies.
That was my first Chuck Norris aphorism... I'm afraid I'm all out, now.

A blind rat with sensitive ears surviving long enough to adapt sonar is simply too unlikely.

Humans got sonar.

It's only unlikely if it started out blind. One feature became more useful than the other.
But why would it develop ears with increased sensitivity without need? if only we had a more complete fossil record to see if it actually would have needed the adaptations.

But why would it develop ears with increased sensitivity without need? if only we had a more complete fossil record to see if it actually would have needed the adaptations.
How would it get out of the cave? duh...

But why would it develop ears with increased sensitivity without need?
Type louder, I can't hear you.

Humans got sonar.

Ooooh, when I meet people who don't believe in evolution, I show them my left eye. I have voluntary control over my left-eye-twitch-muscle thing. I'm not sure if that muscle even exists in medical literature. They usually reel back in disgust.

Who knows in a few hundred generations my descendants will be able to see through clothing, or download internet porn directly into their brains.

Now to get laid...

How would it get out of the cave? duh...
But if it weren't blind it wouldn't need the sensitive ears. It keeps going back and forth. They both require each other.

But if it weren't blind it wouldn't need the sensitive ears. It keeps going back and forth. They both require each other.
Sonar is an edge over sight. Any type of sight, really.

Humans got sonar.
To expand, you ever see a blind person walking down the street with a white cane? You wonder what that constant tap-tap-tapping is for? They can get a very rough idea of where large objects are from the echos. Everyone has this ability (okay, everyone with hearing) but most people don't realise it and haven't developed it to any degree.

Most fruit bats don't have sonar, they use eyeballs. Some have a primitive form of sonar that works by going click-click-click which is very similar to tap-tap-tap. Not hard to see how this could be gradually improved on.

Sonar is an edge over sight. Any type of sight, really.
On a moonless night it is. And funny how you don't see bats in the daytime.

Sonar is an edge over sight. Any type of sight, really.
Not necessarily. Sonar would only be an advantage at night, because it provides very good information on the location of objects when you can't see them. Sight, I would imagine, provides better depth perception, and would work better over long range. Sonar is also lacking in the puzzle-solving abilities, because you can't tell color differences, only shape.

Sonar is also lacking in the puzzle-solving abilities, because you can't tell color differences, only shape.

On the other hand, you have a superman type x-ray vision like an ultrasound.

SUPERINTELLIGENT BAT: I see you are pregnant.

WOMAN: Yes, eight months now.

SUPERINTELLIGENT BAT: I see it's a boy.

WOMAN: Yes, how did you know?

SUPERINTELLIGENT BAT: I see you have fake breasts.

WOMAN: Shut up, bigears!

Not necessarily. Sonar would only be an advantage at night, because it provides very good information on the location of objects when you can't see them. Sight, I would imagine, provides better depth perception, and would work better over long range. Sonar is also lacking in the puzzle-solving abilities, because you can't tell color differences, only shape.
A bat's sonar is better than any sonar the US military is capable of. It's pretty good shit.

A bat's sonar is better than any sonar the US military is capable of. It's pretty good shit.
I'm not sure how it's distance compares to the military's sonar, but I'd be willing to bet that military sonar is much more effective with things in the water. I also noted that you made no claims about its lack of ability to distinguish coloring.

I'm not sure how it's distance compares to the military's sonar, but I'd be willing to bet that military sonar is much more effective with things in the water. I also noted that you made no claims about its lack of ability to distinguish coloring.
You can't distinguish coloring with sound unless you are Ben Affleck.

You can't distinguish coloring with sound unless you are Ben Affleck.
Ben Affleck can hear bullets coming, which is a bit odd as they travel faster than sound.

You can't distinguish coloring with sound unless you are Ben Affleck.
Or Chuck Norris, but the point was across. it severely limits the means by which they can develop to be intelligent because they can't distinguish anything other than distance and shape (the same thing when you think about it) and speed (think the Doppler Effect). Of course, the same thing could be said of us, except we have an ability to determine shape and distance, just not to that degree.

it severely limits the means by which they can develop to be intelligent because they can't distinguish anything other than distance and shape (the same thing when you think about it) and speed (think the Doppler Effect).

Didn't you see the superintelligent bat a few posts ago?

Or Chuck Norris, but the point was across. it severely limits the means by which they can develop to be intelligent because they can't distinguish anything other than distance and shape (the same thing when you think about it) and speed (think the Doppler Effect). Of course, the same thing could be said of us, except we have an ability to determine shape and distance, just not to that degree.
Well, the thing is there are different types of bats. I'm really trying to learn as I argue with you but it seems to me the bats that rely totally on sonar are mostly for catching insects (they can locate, catch and eat an insect in one second) and the bats which go after larger prey use sight along with sonar. And some bats don't use sonar at all.

Didn't you see the superintelligent bat a few posts ago?
I must say, that was a good one.

The last time I studied bats was in third grade and that was... uh... 18 years ago? So I'm a bit rusty.

But why would it develop ears with increased sensitivity without need? if only we had a more complete fossil record to see if it actually would have needed the adaptations.

Ah. A little miscontrued logic involving evolution, here.

Possibility of how bats evolved:

Small mammilians moved deep into caves for protection. Now, as eyesight is useless in pitch black, the pre-bats with good eyesight wouldn't have an advantage, and thus would not have a better chance of passing on the genetics for good eyesight. In these caves, however, better hearing would produce a great advantage. Over many, many years, the genetics for good hearing would be passed on, and hearing would get better and better the longer the process(one generation had good hearing, and those with even better hearing would pass on the genetics, due to having a better chance of survival).

Same would go for flying. Flight would pose a rather obvious advantage for the pre-bats, even if it was only a little boost in jumping to get at low-flying insects. Over the years, true flight would be achieved. However, this would require that the animals become lighter, to conserve energy. So the frail-bodied individuals would actually have the advantage over heavier bodies. As this would lead to poor protect on the ground, those who could find better place(Hang on the cieling, for instance) survived, those that couldn't died.

That's at least how I see the bat evolving.

It's not a process of the result pushing evolution, it's evolution achieving the result. Get what I mean?

Well, the thing is there are different types of bats. I'm really trying to learn as I argue with you but it seems to me the bats that rely totally on sonar are mostly for catching insects (they can locate, catch and eat an insect in one second) and the bats which go after larger prey use sight along with sonar. And some bats don't use sonar at all.
I'm doing the same thing as you. Funny how you learn more in arguments than you ever do in class. I'd imagine that the most advanced ones are either the ones that use sonar only or a combination, because it was an adaptation.

I'm doing the same thing as you. Funny how you learn more in arguments than you ever do in class. I'd imagine that the most advanced ones are either the ones that use sonar only or a combination, because it was an adaptation.
The one second thing really boggled my mind. I agree with you about learning from argument.

Ah. A little miscontrued logic involving evolution, here.

Possibility of how bats evolved:

Small mammilians moved deep into caves for protection. Now, as eyesight is useless in pitch black, the pre-bats with good eyesight wouldn't have an advantage, and thus would not have a better chance of passing on the genetics for good eyesight. In these caves, however, better hearing would produce a great advantage. Over many, many years, the genetics for good hearing would be passed on, and hearing would get better and better the longer the process(one generation had good hearing, and those with even better hearing would pass on the genetics, due to having a better chance of survival).

Same would go for flying. Flight would pose a rather obvious advantage for the pre-bats, even if it was only a little boost in jumping to get at low-flying insects. Over the years, true flight would be achieved. However, this would require that the animals become lighter, to conserve energy. So the frail-bodied individuals would actually have the advantage over heavier bodies. As this would lead to poor protect on the ground, those who could find better place(Hang on the cieling, for instance) survived, those that couldn't died.

That's at least how I see the bat evolving.

It's not a process of the result pushing evolution, it's evolution achieving the result. Get what I mean?
I see what you're saying, and it makes a lot of sense.

I'm having a hard time getting through it but this has been a good site: http://www.batcon.org/batsmag/v9n2-3.html

I'm not sure how it's distance compares to the military's sonar, but I'd be willing to bet that military sonar is much more effective with things in the water. I also noted that you made no claims about its lack of ability to distinguish coloring.

The bat doesn't need long distance, it needs precise information. In that sense, the bat is miles and away had of anything humans have achieved.

Also, I'm not sure that the bat would care about water, as it doesn't involve water. Dolphins and whales, on the other hand, have similiarily amazing sonar with water, probably far better than what we can produce.

The bat's ability to distinguish color with sight? That's fairly simple, actually. Bats actually have pretty decent eyesight, it's just that their eyes are very sensitive to light. At night, color-blindness is superior to color, as you can distinguish between camo-flauged animals easier, as patterns don't blend as well. As an example, we used Color-blind people in Vietnam because they were able to pick out camoflauged encampment from the air easier than people who can see color.

The bat doesn't need long distance, it needs precise information. In that sense, the bat is miles and away had of anything humans have achieved.

Also, I'm not sure that the bat would care about water, as it doesn't involve water. Dolphins and whales, on the other hand, have similiarily amazing sonar with water, probably far better than what we can produce.

The bat's ability to distinguish color with sight? That's fairly simple, actually. Bats actually have pretty decent eyesight, it's just that their eyes are very sensitive to light. At night, color-blindness is superior to color, as you can distinguish between camo-flauged animals easier, as patterns don't blend as well. As an example, we used Color-blind people in Vietnam because they were able to pick out camoflauged encampment from the air easier than people who can see color.
The mentioning of water and distance range was in response to him saying that bats' sonar is much better than the military's.

But their color-blind advantage is only at night, and with their eyes' sensitivity to light, they would be very ineffective. While they can determine patterns well, the use of colors themselves add many new possibilities.

The mentioning of water and distance range was in response to him saying that bats' sonar is much better than the military's.

But their color-blind advantage is only at night, and with their eyes' sensitivity to light, they would be very ineffective. While they can determine patterns well, the use of colors themselves add many new possibilities.
"A major goal of ONR's bio-sonar research program is to duplicate the ability to differentiate between two echoes that arrive at almost the same time. Today's electronic sonar processing can differentiate between echoes about 12 millionths of a second apart. Bats have it down to 2 to 3 millionths of a second. Being able to separate such sounds means that bats can tell the difference between objects and shapes that are separated by only about the width of a human hair."http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/04/020429073532.htm

"Scientists say that watt for watt a bat's sonar is a billion times more sensitive and efficient than any radar or sonar device ever invented by man. They continue to study bats to try and unravel their secrets to improve such things as military equipment and navigational aids for the blind."
http://www.marshallgrain.com/marshall/dept.asp?dept_id=3137

And about Dolphins:

"The Navy currently uses trained dolphins to help detect mines. The dolphins are carried in holding tanks on warships and released upon entering mine-infested waters. The dolphins use their sonar to find the mines and later communicate that information to sailors."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/12/1212_021212_batsonar.html

The mentioning of water and distance range was in response to him saying that bats' sonar is much better than the military's.

But their color-blind advantage is only at night, and with their eyes' sensitivity to light, they would be very ineffective. While they can determine patterns well, the use of colors themselves add many new possibilities.

Ah, I see on the sonar. However, what was he referring to as "better"? Was it just distance, or overall. In perspective, overall would probably go to the bat. Their accuracy is second to none.

Ah, but most bats are nocturnal. Being nocturnal has many advantages, and color sight hinders ability at night. Also, as to their eyes' sensivity to light, it's actually an advantage at night. They can detect light far better, as their eyes are more sensitive. Also, eyesight is mostly unnecessesary(I'm sure it has it's uses) for the bat, as it sleeps during the day, and hunts at night using it's incredible sonar. Eyesight just isn't that important to bats, and adding color would only hinder most.

"A major goal of ONR's bio-sonar research program is to duplicate the ability to differentiate between two echoes that arrive at almost the same time. Today's electronic sonar processing can differentiate between echoes about 12 millionths of a second apart. Bats have it down to 2 to 3 millionths of a second. Being able to separate such sounds means that bats can tell the difference between objects and shapes that are separated by only about the width of a human hair."http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/04/020429073532.htm

And about Dolphins:

"The Navy currently uses trained dolphins to help detect mines. The dolphins are carried in holding tanks on warships and released upon entering mine-infested waters. The dolphins use their sonar to find the mines and later communicate that information to sailors."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/12/1212_021212_batsonar.html


Lol, I almost forgot about the navy-dolphins. If only they had lazers on their backs...

Lol, I almost forgot about the navy-dolphins. If only they had lazers on their backs...
http://shows.airamericaradio.com/maddow/files/maddow/images/armed%20dolphin.jpg

http://shows.airamericaradio.com/maddow/files/maddow/images/armed%20dolphin.jpg

I'm sueing. That was my idea.

Dolphins have very large, well developed brains. Which gives us a good place to implant the "laser."

I can not comprehend HOW in this modern and supposedly educated and advanced world of 2006, there are still people living in some ignorant pre- victorian mindset bubble of fundamentalist encouraged belief in a totally debunked and unproven theory, put forward by a group of men thousands of years ago to explain things that they had no other way to understand. I live in a place where dinosaur bones, footprints and other fossils are found on a regular basis, as the cliffs and coastline erodes, in the natural course of events. How the hell did they get there? hundreds of feet under the ground at the base of ancient cliffs that are being exposed by the sea? did Darwin get some mining firm to dig down and hide them there in case someone questioned his theory? Maybe through modern science, some of his theories have proved to be wrong...but I point and laugh at anybody who can say hand on heart that they REALLY HONESTLY think that a being 'created' the earth from nothing, made light, water, land and animals etc in 6 days and then sat back and let us balls it all up ever since...yeah right...And don't give me the free will argument either, God seemed pretty happy to speak to people. smite evil doesers and generally make his presence felt, but suddenly he has gone all shy...hmmm...so tell me, where is the wrath of God on todays sinful world? I am waiting, as I would like to believe very much, as it would be nice to think that my Mum is in heaven and lives with the angels....

Yes, I believe evolution is correct. I don't actually "believe in it", because it's not a religion/philosophy.

Dolphins have very large, well developed brains. Which gives us a good place to implant the "laser."
They also have the keen ability to judge who deserves a lasering and who does not.

Do you believe in it?

If you "believe" in it, you don't know what you're talking about. There's no call for "faith"; it has logic and truckloads of evidence. It requires no more "belief" than the functioning of an airplane or the process of solar fusion. No science does. You accept a theory based on thought, not faith or feeling.

Chimps rule dammit!


Get your hands off me, you damn dirty ape!

Get your hands off me, you damn dirty ape!

But humans can't speak!!

Do you believe in it?

Its a bit of a moot point. one can no more believe in evolution than gravity or sound.

hitler!

hitler!
Godwin!

I more thnk that God is a grad student, working on his project, and dropped something funny into the test tube, et voila! Bet he passes with flying colours!

One day, half a dozen enormous objects will materialize near earth, and after ten years of decoding, we'll discover that the message they're broadcasting is "Thesis Defense in progress, please do not disturb".

One day, half a dozen enormous objects will materialize near earth, and after ten years of decoding, we'll discover that the message they're broadcasting is "Thesis Defense in progress, please do not disturb".

And what would they be defending from or against?