NationStates Jolt Archive

Why are all the liberal groups siding with them? I'm leftist and think they should be deported ASAP. No one should be with them or even sympathize. There ar eplenty of Americans who would kill for Illegals' jobs...I wonder why they don't.

Also, it's not xenophobic to want a job picking fruit that illegals have.

Are you serious?

Are you serious?
I'm always serious. But what specifically are you poking at?

Are you serious?

Looks like it..


Also, it's not xenophobic to want a job picking fruit.

What if you fear fruit, and not know what it is?

I think the best way to prevent Illegal immagrints from coming over the border is
simple....
Just get rid of the border.

So your saying that we should deport people, in turn sending them back to the dictatorships and hostile environments that they are trying to escape from? I thought we were the "Land of the Free". I thought we believed in "Equality for all" and "Don't turn anyone away." Were supposed to be the land of the free yet we have been taking away the rights of different groups of people for centuries. Were trying to send people back to their oppresive nations as well as take away the rights of GLBT Americans and the Native Americans.

I'm sick of these people who think they are leftist talking about taking away people's rights, that is not a leftist point of view, it's a rightist. It's one of those Fundimentalists points of views. We should help people, not harm them by sending them back to a retarded dictators nation.

I'm always serious. But what specifically are you poking at?

The deporting and not sympathizing part.

The fruit part is different. I've had a fruit picking job myself....

Why are all the liberal groups siding with them? I'm leftist and think they should be deported ASAP. No one should be with them or even sympathize. There ar eplenty of Americans who would kill for Illegals' jobs...I wonder why they don't.
Also, it's not xenophobic to want a job picking fruit.
Perhaps you ought to wonder about that a bit longer before you invest too much certitude in your current conclusion.
You might also wonder why employers would employ illegals given the legal risk to themselves, not to mention potential language complications...

I suspect there is some correlation between cost of living in the US, wage laws, and lower standards of living across the border in say Mexico, and number of illegal workers both willing to take the risk of illegally working on the US and employers wanting to hire them.

I would think that more liberals would be more against illegal immigrants, on account that they, theoretically, would undermine unions by their low wages and take jobs. I remember that one prominent liberal website, now defunct, www.retrovsmetro.org said something along those lines.

They're taking our ders!

I'm sick of these people who think they are leftist talking about taking away people's rights, that is not a leftist point of view, it's a rightist.

:rolleyes: It's an authoritarian view.

They're taking our ders!

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/MAR-Peeves/applause_crowd.gif

Yeah, how dare the illegals take jobs Americans don't want!

It's not like the illegals are taking CEO jobs away from Americans. The dirty truth is is that the economy does need them to do the jobs no on else wants to do. And the language part, Canada has duel languages and everyone's just fine with it. There should be some measures to reduce the number of illegals jumping the border, but deporting 11 million people! That's impossible and unethical to get rid of that many people. And, I don't think we need to treat them as criminals. Most of them just want work, if they do a criminal act, then they'll be deported. It's mainly the drug runners and criminals are the ones who commit crimes.

Why are all the liberal groups siding with them? I'm leftist and think they should be deported ASAP. No one should be with them or even sympathize. There ar eplenty of Americans who would kill for Illegals' jobs...I wonder why they don't.

Also, it's not xenophobic to want a job picking fruit that illegals have.

It's my opinion that if we on the left would spend just half as much time, energy, and money on unionization activities in Mexico and other developing nations that we spend on supporting illegal immigration, there wouldn't be very many illegal immigrants to get worked up over. But noooooooo. Actually doing something to help the people still in Mexico isn't as cool (or as easy) as walking out of class or standing in a crowd chanting in "support."

Yeah, we need to help mexico improve itself and if the economy becomes healthier and jobs become avaliable, then they'll stop trying to jump the border. Also, perhaps the U.S. should lax immigration limits a bit.

Yeah! Fuck those illegal immigrants who flee brutal dictatorships to try and enjoy a free and prosperous life in America!

If we wanted them to be free we'd have invaded their goddamn country already! And we will...... just as soon as we get Iraq stable.

This sentiment, of course, does not apply to MExicans or other Central Americans who have the nerve to try and escape something as trivial as crushing poverty. They are simply greedy fucks who are making our homegrown lazy-assed welfare cases look bad by daring to work for the same basic pay as a loyal citizen makes siting on their asses, squeezing blackheads, and and complaining about how unfair the world is.

That IS the problem you see. Illegal immigrants make our lazy fucks look bad.

And NOONE makes America look bad without paying a price for it!

Why are all the liberal groups siding with them? I'm leftist and think they should be deported ASAP. No one should be with them or even sympathize. There ar eplenty of Americans who would kill for Illegals' jobs...I wonder why they don't.

Also, it's not xenophobic to want a job picking fruit that illegals have.

I stand not by my country but the people of the whole world.

There ar eplenty of Americans who would kill for Illegals' jobs...





What is this nonsense? No there aren't.

I really want to be running around in a field, picking vegetables and fruits in the hot sun, with lower than Wal-Mart wages, and no healthcare. It was my life's dream until those damn illegals took all the jobs.

im not in favor of making being in the US without the proper paperwork a felony

im not in favor of breaking up families in order to make ourselves feel better that we have done something by deporting people who have lived here peacefully for 10 or 20 years.

im also not in favor of the status quo which leaves "illegal aliens" without the full protection of the law. making them subject to arrest and trial for a felony only makes them more vulnerable to the unscrupulous.

i dont love the idea of guest workers but it is preferable to having people working illegally. if that is all we can do, then i support it.

i dont see that it makes sense to be so harsh towards people who are here to work. they arent terrorists, they are landscapers and nannies. we need to stop ratcheting up the hate and start making rational plans to deal with the problem.

You know, no-one has yet explained to me who is going to make my sandwiches after this mass deportation.

Yeah, we need to help mexico improve itself and if the economy becomes healthier and jobs become avaliable, then they'll stop trying to jump the border. Also, perhaps the U.S. should lax immigration limits a bit.

Helping Mexico raise its living standards should be our top priority.

The US needs to do it's part too. We should force ALL employers to pay a living wage to all their employees regardless of nationality.

And I agree that our immigration quotas are too low.

I guess we'll have to do it ourselves, dammit!

:( I don't want to make my own sandwhiches!

I know you don't, oh what a sad state our nation is. Where we have to do work, damn them all!

i dont love the idea of guest workers but it is preferable to having people working illegally. if that is all we can do, then i support it.


I'm against a guest worker program, it's basically creates a set of second class citizens and I don't think its fair to people who after all are coming here for our benefit as much as theirs.

I agree the black economy aspect of illegal workers is a problem, but by the same token there are plenty of citizens and legal aliens who engage in the same types of transaction. It would make more sense to me to address that directly, rather than chasing down immigrants.

Amnesty, would it help?

I know you don't, oh what a sad state our nation is. Where we have to do work, damn them all!

Well it's true. Americans are lazy, and they don't do good work. The worker productivity in this country per hour is behind western europe for example.

The only thing you can say about americans is that they'll happily chain themselves to a desk for sixty hours a week.

Getting anything tangible out of the vast majority of them is a different story.

Hell, we are even having to use mexicans to rebuild new orleans.

It's like ancient rome.

Well, France's economy is bad

Well, France's economy is bad
Take a guess as to why.

I bet your gonna say it's beacuse of their Socialist takes on labor and such.

Well, France's economy is bad

Why do people always pick france?

The german economy is significantly worse, but no-one ever says germany. Ever. Why is that?

Anway, france's economy is, by historical measures, not that bad. It's weak compared to the US, but it's not like you go there and it's in the midst of a great depression or anything: think of the US circa 1993. They have a fairly high unemployment rate and anemic growth is all.

Take a guess as to why.

Garlic sausage?

I'm of German descent, so that's why I don't mention it.

But we're kind of diverting from the real issue.

Sel Appa hasn't been defending his position very well. I don't think he's much of a liberal.

I don't understand how just because someone is from another country they are somehow worth less than Americans, and less deserving of rights...

We're a nation of immigrants, trying to denie immigrants a chance at the American dream, which is slowly slipping away from anybody's grasp, American or not.

Yeah! Fuck those illegal immigrants who flee brutal dictatorships to try and enjoy a free and prosperous life in America!

If we wanted them to be free we'd have invaded their goddamn country already! And we will...... just as soon as we get Iraq stable.

This sentiment, of course, does not apply to MExicans or other Central Americans who have the nerve to try and escape something as trivial as crushing poverty. They are simply greedy fucks who are making our homegrown lazy-assed welfare cases look bad by daring to work for the same basic pay as a loyal citizen makes siting on their asses, squeezing blackheads, and and complaining about how unfair the world is.

That IS the problem you see. Illegal immigrants make our lazy fucks look bad.

And NOONE makes America look bad without paying a price for it!
amen

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/MAR-Peeves/applause_crowd.gif


LOL

I live where there are a lot of illegals. Never had a problem with them and they do shit jobs that no one wants to do. One contractor I know put off hiring them for as long as he could but nobody wanted to do the "Mexican" jobs such as clear work areas. I've also known a few that became successful with small businesses and became full citizens in the process. What the hell happened that people are looking at illegals now? There are seriously worse problems in America than people trying to make money.

The rich keep getting greedier.

LOL

Thank the Germans.

Share the love. (http://www.casual-gamers.de/cg/misc.php?do=showsmilies):)

I live where there are a lot of illegals. Never had a problem with them and they do shit jobs that no one wants to do. One contractor I know put off hiring them for as long as he could but nobody wanted to do the "Mexican" jobs such as clear work areas. I've also known a few that became successful with small businesses and became full citizens in the process. What the hell happened that people are looking at illegals now? There are seriously worse problems in America than people trying to make money.

I know several people that won't hire americans anymore. They tell me it's just not worth the shit they get. And it's not even like they are paying minimum wage.

Here's my opinion. If America don't want illegals immigrants, how about forget calling your home "the land of freedom" and start Saran® wrap your friggin country. Plain and simple.

I'm against a guest worker program, it's basically creates a set of second class citizens and I don't think its fair to people who after all are coming here for our benefit as much as theirs.

I agree the black economy aspect of illegal workers is a problem, but by the same token there are plenty of citizens and legal aliens who engage in the same types of transaction. It would make more sense to me to address that directly, rather than chasing down immigrants.

i dont really like the guest worker idea, but the rest of what is being proposed is so awful that its looking like the only plan that has any sense at all to it.

there are a number of people who only want to come to the US to work for a while. guest worker would work for them. rather than have it not be a route to citizenship i would use it as a leg-up for getting a full green card and onto the road to citizenship for those who show that they can come to this country, work hard, stay out of trouble and begin to assimilate.

it bothers me very much that millions of people live and work in this country without the protection of the law and without a chance to become legal residents (and eventually citizens). the vast majority are not a problem. i dont see a reason to toss them out. we need to find a fair solution to the problem.

Let's build a moat...of fire!

Here's my opinion. If America don't want illegals immigrants, how about forget calling your home "the land of freedom" and start Saran® wrap your friggin country.
lmao:)

There ar eplenty of Americans who would kill for Illegals' jobs...I wonder why they don't.

Also, it's not xenophobic to want a job picking fruit that illegals have.

Wow. You need to get outside more often. I really don't see any many people screaming to be low level laborers. Don't see them rushing to pick produce. Don't see them fighting to be janitors or mcdonalds workers....

I always wanted to be a janitor, or gardner, or produce picker. But no, those damn liberals don't give a damn about me!

i dont really like the guest worker idea, but the rest of what is being proposed is so awful that its looking like the only plan that has any sense at all to it.

there are a number of people who only want to come to the US to work for a while. guest worker would work for them. rather than have it not be a route to citizenship i would use it as a leg-up for getting a full green card and onto the road to citizenship for those who show that they can come to this country, work hard, stay out of trouble and begin to assimilate.

it bothers me very much that millions of people live and work in this country without the protection of the law and without a chance to become legal residents (and eventually citizens). the vast majority are not a problem. i dont see a reason to toss them out. we need to find a fair solution to the problem.

I agree.

There are problems with the status quo. (Criminal gangs on the border, smugglers &c, black economy issues), but I don't think that means that we should do something stupid and ill concieved. Like creating 11,000,000 felons overnight.

People need to do more thinking about this.

I always wanted to be a janitor, or gardner, or produce picker. But no, those damn liberals don't give a damn about me!

I've been a produce picker.

We used to piss on some of the strawberries. Think of that, next time you have one. :eek:

Besides, you can't deport or imprison 11 million people. It would be a travesty of civil rights. To be arrested just because you wanted a better life.

That's for illegals already here for some time.

Ha, I don't even like strawberries. :upyours:

Ha, I don't even like strawberries. :upyours:

Never eat a fruit you can't peel.

Unless you grow it yourself.

lmao:)
Well, Saran® wrap might add a little humour. ;)

But really, seeing Americans whining about illegals on the news is getting on my nerves. Then there's Americans boasting that their country is the "land of freedom". Well guess what? Everybody don't give a continental damn about how free your country is. Go grab a GLAD Cling Wrap® and wrap yourself before illegals "steal" your job.

*Note to would be illegal immigrants: Think its worth it to go to America?

I still like my moat of fire idea.

I was flipping through the channels one time and stumbled upon Fox News. They had scaremongers saying that this all may lead to civil war...which is complete bullshit!

I was flipping through the channels one time and stumbled upon Fox News. They had scaremongorers saying that this all may lead to civil war...which is complete bullshit!Faux News, their views and opinions are always beyond silly and ridiculous. :rolleyes:

I know, I just felt like showing everyone to show just how outrageous this whole issue is.

I call Blue.

I think calling them "illegals" is a poor attempt at masking a flippant xenophobic attitude.

It implies that their personhood itself is against the law.

Supporters of the term say, "Well, it's because they're here illegally." That's bullshit! I cross the street illegally, but no one has ever called me "an illegal."

You *could* just say, "illegal immigrant." But, what, that's too much effort for your dainty, citizen-by-birth fingers? Perhaps, you are too lazy to even make use of your limited but real education and communication skills?

I find it actually amusing that the "illegals" crowd is all about how "illegals" "steal" jobs from hard-working American citizens... but they're too lazy to even spell out "illegal immigrant." Kinda shoots their "hard working" argument in the foot.

Why are all the liberal groups siding with them? I'm leftist and think they should be deported ASAP. No one should be with them or even sympathize. There ar eplenty of Americans who would kill for Illegals' jobs...I wonder why they don't.

Also, it's not xenophobic to want a job picking fruit that illegals have.
Trust me- there are NOT Americans who want those jobs. The jobs they work have long hours, with extremely low pay and no benefits. The economy of the entire country would suffer greatly if the immigrant were deported.

Come on people, the moat of fire will keep those "illegals" :) out.

Honestly, I don't have a problem that they are illegal. I can understand wanting a better life.

My issue with them is one of assimiliation. Every other group that has come to this country has, at the very least, bothered to at least learn the English language. I am so tired of hearing and seeing Spanish everywhere. And now homework from public schools is starting to come home in both english and spanish. They don't even pretend to try to assmiliate.

Not them though, they expect us to cater to them. And politicans, Republican and Democrat, will do it for the hispanic vote. And corporations will do it for how ever much money they can squeeze from them. It used to be there were sections of towns where people could keep their ethnic identity. Now there are towns where the offical language is spanish. And we have a problem making the offical language English?

How can we offer citizenship to people who don't really want to be citizens? Look at all the demonstrations have been going on. I've never seen so many Mexican flags. These people don't want to be citizens. They snuck into the movie theater and now are demanding free popcorn. In spanish.

I don't hate them because they are immigrants. I hate them because they refuse to assimilate in the least.

I think calling them "illegals" is a poor attempt at masking a flippant xenophobic attitude.

It implies that their personhood itself is against the law.

Supporters of the term say, "Well, it's because they're here illegally." That's bullshit! I cross the street illegally, but no one has ever called me "an illegal."

You *could* just say, "illegal immigrant." But, what, that's too much effort for your dainty, citizen-by-birth fingers? Perhaps, you are too lazy to even make use of your limited but real education and communication skills?

I find it actually amusing that the "illegals" crowd is all about how "illegals" "steal" jobs from hard-working American citizens... but they're too lazy to even spell out "illegal immigrant." Kinda shoots their "hard working" argument in the foot.
Now that's well said! :)

It implies that their personhood itself is against the law.

Supporters of the term say, "Well, it's because they're here illegally." That's bullshit! I cross the street illegally, but no one has ever called me "an illegal."

You Sir are a jay-walker!:eek:

I agree.

There are problems with the status quo. (Criminal gangs on the border, smugglers &c, black economy issues), but I don't think that means that we should do something stupid and ill concieved. Like creating 11,000,000 felons overnight.

People need to do more thinking about this.
how about building a 2000 mile wall?

now i dont know all that much about building walls but it sure does seem to me like an utterly unworkable idea unless we are willing to spend billions every year for staffing and maintenance. even a simple 3 strand barbed wire fence needs yearly maintenance how much more is going to be needed for something that is exposed to the wind, water, harsh sunlight and determined people wanting to destroy it?

Come on people, the moat of fire will keep those "illegals" :) out.You do know that being a human being is NOT illegal.

If you want to bar them from having a better life, then stop calling your home a "free country" and start Saran® wrap yourself and America.

You Sir are a jay-walker!:eek:

Me, and people like me, STEAL the right-of-way!

Santa Barbara defending an issue like this?

*head explodes*

Me, and people like me, STEAL the right-of-way!
Yes, I'd heard as much. You ought to be ashamed stealing the right-of-way from hard working Americans, even if they were not intending to take up that right at the time you stole it.

Someone not currently driving on the particular road you stole right of way on could have taken the right of way if you had not stolen it. Shame on you taking unwanted right of ways from hard working Americans!:mad:

how about building a 2000 mile wall?

now i dont know all that much about building walls but it sure does seem to me like an utterly unworkable idea unless we are willing to spend billions every year for staffing and maintenance. even a simple 3 strand barbed wire fence needs yearly maintenance how much more is going to be needed for something that is exposed to the wind, water, harsh sunlight and determined people wanting to destroy it?

It's techinically feasible. There's a quite famous proof of concept in asia. (Interestingly enough, I grew up near the 2,000 year old remains of a similar project, though on a far smaller scale).

Neither of them really worked however. And you are right, the cost would be enormous.

I imagine the best solution would be a similar system to that used around Groom Lake. Motion detectors, with roving patrols to intercept 'trespassers'. Though obviously, given the number of people crossing the cost would still be massive.

That said, there is no doubt in my mind that if the greedy congress thought it could get away with funding such a huge boondoggle of a wall, they would gladly open the public purse.

Santa Barbara defending an issue like this?

*head explodes*

Well, I'm against several things here.

1) Government bureacracy. (Which is what makes someone 'illegal' or 'legal.')
2) Economic naivete. (The idea that I have a "right" to a job I don't even want or apply for.)
3) Paranoid xenophobia. (Fear and the idea that a giant wall will make me safe.)
4) Legal double standards. (Apparently, none of the "they better respect our laws" crowd has ever broken a single fucking law in their entire life.)
5) Paranoid xenophobia, part 2. (The disturbingly prolific fear that Mexicans are actually invading the US with a planned strategy to infiltrate our border and out-breed White, God-Fearing Americans, steal our jobs and take our women.)

All of which are at play on this issue.

In contrast, I support economic freedom, which means allowing job opportunities, not denying them.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/immigrant.gif
Now I am badass enough to be quoted in Rotovia's sig

-snip-

Whoa. I totally agree with TWO of your posts?

*head implodes*

Personally, I think that our best course of action is to streamline the immigration process, and open our borders to more legal immigration with Mexico. That way, the immigrants coming over will have legal status, which will mean that they will have the same rights and protections other legal residents have. Since the incoming workers will have legal protections, the incentive to hire them will decrease, since they will no longer be forced to work for wages below minimum wage, and will be able to demand legal wages and working conditions, and back up those demands with threat of litigation.

As for the ones here already, I think a simple admission that our previous immigration policy was incorrect and counterproductive would be entirely appropriate. An offer of amnesty to those who claim it within so long of issuing the announcement should help clear up the legal status of those who are already acting as a defacto population of second-class citizens.
Honestly, I don't have a problem that they are illegal. I can understand wanting a better life.

My issue with them is one of assimiliation. Every other group that has come to this country has, at the very least, bothered to at least learn the English language. I am so tired of hearing and seeing Spanish everywhere. And now homework from public schools is starting to come home in both english and spanish. They don't even pretend to try to assmiliate.

Not them though, they expect us to cater to them. And politicans, Republican and Democrat, will do it for the hispanic vote. And corporations will do it for how ever much money they can squeeze from them. It used to be there were sections of towns where people could keep their ethnic identity. Now there are towns where the offical language is spanish. And we have a problem making the offical language English?

How can we offer citizenship to people who don't really want to be citizens? Look at all the demonstrations have been going on. I've never seen so many Mexican flags. These people don't want to be citizens. They snuck into the movie theater and now are demanding free popcorn. In spanish.

I don't hate them because they are immigrants. I hate them because they refuse to assimilate in the least.
Strange how no one responded to this. It's the most rational thing I've seen on this side of the immigration debate, but I guess it's just more fun to take potshots at the loud morons than it is to adress someone who has a real point.

I'll admit that it does annoy me, but we don't really expect people to give up their herritages when they come to America. Sure, we expect them to learn the languange, and assimilate to an extent, but we don't seriusly expect them to forget their roots entirely. To expect such a thing is to deny the value of diversity.

America, 1883:


Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

America, 2006:

...they should be deported ASAP. No one should be with them or even sympathize. There ar eplenty of Americans who would kill for Illegals' jobs...I wonder why they don't.

How far we've come...

I'm fairly liberal, though I have a few conservative beliefs.

Keeping illegal immigrants out of america is one of these "conservative" beliefs.

We have 11 million people here illegally. I call them illegals, because they are doing something illegal every moment they are here.

I hate when people say nobody would take these jobs. Most americans wouldn't take them as-is, no. However, the alternative is to resort to nearly slave labor(slaves to needing the money, and not being able to get better jobs here). Maybe we should pick up child labor? I would have picked fruit at 14(I wanted a job very badly).

The solution is to raise wages in these places, and create unions. Force the farmers, etc to go more high tech(subsidize them a bit, so they can afford these improvements). Is it not great work? Sure, but its not very fun to be walking around for 8 hours at my work, cleaning theatres as fast as I can, before the people start coming in.

I'm all for making it easier to come to america, legally. These people then can pay taxes, get real wages, etc. But coming illegally is something that angers me, very much. It makes the tax burden on us larger, these immoral companies are making bank of exploiting desperate people, etc.

And one note: I never voted for america to be the land of the free. I'm not xenophobic, hell, I think mexicans are pretty fucking cool, depending on who you talk to. Had one buy me and all my friends(17-18) beers and nacho's at a pool hall. Didn't even ask, he just felt like being cool.

(Btw, funny story... a few years ago, I took bowling for school. Well, I would always walk across the street to the elementary school across the way, where my mom worked, then go home. Well, one day, as I was headed, a guy stopped me, and asked me if I was looking for work(a bunch of mexicans always stood outside of the 7-11 there, looking for work). Thought it was pretty funny that the guy picked me out, when I wasn't even stopped there, to ask me if I wanted a job... I woulda taken it, if I didn't have to go to school, lol...)

Hobovilla, nice cartoon. Makes a very good point.

There has been alot of people seeming to imply that left = liberatarian and right = authoritarian, this isn't the case, they are on separate axes - left and right are the polar ends of the x axis and authoritarian and liberatarian are on the polar ends of the y axis - they are all mutually INCLUSIVE not exclusive. So you can be left and authoritarian (ie left economically but authoritarian socially) ie stalin, hitler et al.

Would you be referring to Moderates?

Would you be referring to Moderates?

I am not refering to anyone in particular - im just saying that its unfair to say that someone is right wing for supporting the new imigration laws - they are indeed authoritarian but they can be as left wing as want as well. Left and right are measures of economic orientation NOT of social orientation. Im for the laws but I am a lefty when it comes to the economy.

So, do you support what Sel Appa said?

It's techinically feasible. There's a quite famous proof of concept in asia. (Interestingly enough, I grew up near the 2,000 year old remains of a similar project, though on a far smaller scale).

Neither of them really worked however. And you are right, the cost would be enormous.

I imagine the best solution would be a similar system to that used around Groom Lake. Motion detectors, with roving patrols to intercept 'trespassers'. Though obviously, given the number of people crossing the cost would still be massive.

That said, there is no doubt in my mind that if the greedy congress thought it could get away with funding such a huge boondoggle of a wall, they would gladly open the public purse.
where ever groom lake is...

i cant imagine anything electronic lasting a year in the desert. the bright sunlight degrades everything. not to mention the incredible blowing sand. the flash floods that come only during the torrential rains of the summer monsoon. the tumbleweeds that accumulate around any obstacle. migratory animals. migratory people who might just decide to vandalize the detector.

outside of a few big cities on the border, its pretty desolate. no one lives there and no one WANTS to live there. how closely together do we have to station people in order to make a timely response to the motion detector? if it takes more than half an hour to get there, its useless (and it takes more than half an hour to get anywhere on the border)

how many billions a year do we really want to spend in order to keep juan from picking lettuce?

I know how to make a barrier and keep cost down. Have illegals build the wall, wouldn't that be bitter irony :)

So, do you support what Sel Appa said?

Not really, but im from the UK and i support new legistlation in the UK to regulate illegal immigration which is becoming a problem. Economic migrancy isnt a valid reason for admission in my opinion but i support strongly the right to assylum in cases where it is appropriate. I dont like many of the governments of the nations immigrants come from, but equally its not a good long term solution to admit all and any who want to come to the UK (or USA) its just not practical (and sadly practicality sometimes does have to trump ideology). Its organisations like the UN that should deal with despots like the ones in the countries of origin of many immigrants. I dont see why the Western European nations / USA should have to pick up the pieces when the UN could just get off it arse (not thats its ever likely to happen).

Not really, but im from the UK and i support new legistlation in the UK to regulate illegal immigration which is becoming a problem. Economic migrancy isnt a valid reason for admission in my opinion but i support strongly the right to assylum in cases where it is appropriate. I dont like many of the governments of the nations immigrants come from, but equally its not a good long term solution to admit all and any who want to come to the UK (or USA) its just not practical (and sadly practicality sometimes does have to trump ideology). Its organisations like the UN that should deal with despots like the ones in the countries of origin of many immigrants. I dont see why the Western European nations / USA should have to pick up the pieces when the UN could just get off it arse (not thats its ever likely to happen).
how does the EU impact your immigration policies? can you keep out immigration from member countries? does the possible inclusion of turkey to the EU worry you in this regard?

dont expect things from the UN that it cant do.

how does the EU impact your immigration policies? can you keep out immigration from member countries? does the possible inclusion of turkey to the EU worry you in this regard?

dont expect things from the UN that it cant do.

We can't stop inward migration from the EU under the free movement of people laws however we are not part of the shengun agreement (which has lowered internal boundries) ie to enter the UK you still need to present your passport (unlike in france, spain et al) therefore if you enter illegally we arent breaking EU law by deporting you. Its illegal immigration (ie the sort where you enter without documentation, do not present your self to the home office and gain work without permit that i disagree with). I was very happy that the new eatern european nations now have access to the other EU member states and i support legal migration systems. Its illegal immigration that undermines the legal migration systems - people who work illegally will accept less than minimum wage jobs and hence cause employers to take the risk in employing them rather than employing people at minimum wage workers thus causing UK citizens to loose out on jobs. And this percieved problem regardless of its size or scope is exaggerated by the press which creates resentment and causes lots of the racial issues we currently have (ie race riots, demi-ghettos forming in the inner cities). If multiculturalism is going to work everyone has to play by the same rules, if illegals break the law they should be deported - otherwise it creates resentment in the indigenous population. I believe in liberalising immigration laws further but i support strengthening laws against illegal migration.

No, a leftist should not side with the illegals, because a true leftist would realize that the whole issue is completely sidestepping the larger question.

The simple truth is that there is a war being waged in this country, and it isn't a war between legal and illegal residents. It's a war by the rich on the poor. But no one is allowed to say that there is class warfare going on, because it just might, perish the thought, lead us to question the omnipotent power of the market.

Look, illegal immigrants from Mexico aren't coming here because they're trying to do the jobs we won't. They're coming here because in 1982, the economy in Mexico tanked, and the only solution they've ever attempted has been to "liberalize" their economy. As a practical result, it has made their country wholly dependent upon shipping cheap goods to the US, and now companies that once moved to Mexico for the cheap labor are now going to China for even cheaper labor. Capitalism isn't going to save Mexico; capitalism is what made Mexico dependent on the US in the first place, and then ripped its economic heart out on the alter of free trade. The human cost of this neo-liberalism is what we see today at the corner of every Home Depot: poor schlubs looking to make enough to eak out a meager existence.

Compounding this problem is the fact that the jobs illegal immigrants do are the things Americans adamantly refuse to support; take farmers, for instance. I was once a farmer myself, and I can vouch for the fact that farmers really are some of the hardest-working people in the country. But this hard work doesn't do a lick of good, because the simple fact is that farming is not an activity that fits well in the capitalist mode of production. The startup costs of a farm are extremely high, the profit yield per year is very low, and the risks are fairly high that you'll suffer blight or insects and lose your entire crop. Moreover, the good years you have are almost always the good years for everyone else, meaning that any good crop almost by definition comes at a time when prices are depressed. This was the entire reason why we initiated policies in the 30's to pay farmers to plow their crops under, because we wanted to give farmers a living wage by controlling supply and not forcing them into the price trap of producing more and more at lower and lower prices. But we don't do that anymore. Instead, we pay subsidies to Con-Agra and Monsanto, while we steadily drive small farmers out of existence. In this context, you see why illegals get paid less-than-living wages: because that is the only price at which farmers can afford to pay in the current system.

So instead of arguing about building a wall, perhaps we should be asking what it will take to rebuild the economy of Mexico and drive those rat-bastards at Monsanto out of business. That would increase the supply of native workers in those industries, because they will have wages they can live on. It would also ease the impetus of coming here, because living wages can be found in Mexico. Of course, we are never going to argue about that, because in this society, sticking up for the rights of the serfs in it is the only real treason.

So your saying that we should deport people, in turn sending them back to the dictatorships and hostile environments that they are trying to escape from? I thought we were the "Land of the Free". I thought we believed in "Equality for all" and "Don't turn anyone away." Were supposed to be the land of the free yet we have been taking away the rights of different groups of people for centuries. Were trying to send people back to their oppresive nations as well as take away the rights of GLBT Americans and the Native Americans.

I'm sick of these people who think they are leftist talking about taking away people's rights, that is not a leftist point of view, it's a rightist. It's one of those Fundimentalists points of views. We should help people, not harm them by sending them back to a retarded dictators nation.
America lets in more legal immigrants than any other country in the world. We've got nothing to be ashamed for when it comes to immigration.

No, a leftist should not side with the illegals, because a true leftist would realize that the whole issue is completely sidestepping the larger question.

The simple truth is that there is a war being waged in this country, and it isn't a war between legal and illegal residents. It's a war by the rich on the poor. But no one is allowed to say that there is class warfare going on, because it just might, perish the thought, lead us to question the omnipotent power of the market.

Look, illegal immigrants from Mexico aren't coming here because they're trying to do the jobs we won't. They're coming here because in 1982, the economy in Mexico tanked, and the only solution they've ever attempted has been to "liberalize" their economy. As a practical result, it has made their country wholly dependent upon shipping cheap goods to the US, and now companies that once moved to Mexico for the cheap labor are now going to China for even cheaper labor. Capitalism isn't going to save Mexico; capitalism is what made Mexico dependent on the US in the first place, and then ripped its economic heart out on the alter of free trade. The human cost of this neo-liberalism is what we see today at the corner of every Home Depot: poor schlubs looking to make enough to eak out a meager existence.

Compounding this problem is the fact that the jobs illegal immigrants do are the things Americans adamantly refuse to support; take farmers, for instance. I was once a farmer myself, and I can vouch for the fact that farmers really are some of the hardest-working people in the country. But this hard work doesn't do a lick of good, because the simple fact is that farming is not an activity that fits well in the capitalist mode of production. The startup costs of a farm are extremely high, the profit yield per year is very low, and the risks are fairly high that you'll suffer blight or insects and lose your entire crop. Moreover, the good years you have are almost always the good years for everyone else, meaning that any good crop almost by definition comes at a time when prices are depressed. This was the entire reason why we initiated policies in the 30's to pay farmers to plow their crops under, because we wanted to give farmers a living wage by controlling supply and not forcing them into the price trap of producing more and more at lower and lower prices. But we don't do that anymore. Instead, we pay subsidies to Con-Agra and Monsanto, while we steadily drive small farmers out of existence. In this context, you see why illegals get paid less-than-living wages: because that is the only price at which farmers can afford to pay in the current system.

So instead of arguing about building a wall, perhaps we should be asking what it will take to rebuild the economy of Mexico and drive those rat-bastards at Monsanto out of business. That would increase the supply of native workers in those industries, because they will have wages they can live on. It would also ease the impetus of coming here, because living wages can be found in Mexico. Of course, we are never going to argue about that, because in this society, sticking up for the rights of the serfs in it is the only real treason.

What else is there that can really work? Look at china under mao, look at the USSR, look at N Korea (where people die in the streets of starvation and people walk on by because its so common). The market isnt perfect, nothing is, but the market is alot freer than centralised allocation - positive liberty undermines the individuals right to self determination. The market is the most flexible apparatus to run an economy as it isnt rigidly planned so it takes a hell of a lot bigger spanner to jam it than it would a centralised system.

Helping Mexico raise its living standards should be our top priority.

The US needs to do it's part too. We should force ALL employers to pay a living wage to all their employees regardless of nationality.

And I agree that our immigration quotas are too low.
It's not our job to take care of the world. And we allow the highest number of legal immigrants into the country than any other country in the world, so our quotas are anything but low.

The solution is simple. Just put the national guard along the border and shoot them on sight.

Americans dying in Iraq wasn't a big enough distraction, this time. Approval ratings are staying low, and the 'culture of corruption' in the ruling regime is becoming undeniable, even by the staunchest of supporters.

So...

Let's start talking about "those foreigners that have ruined our nation and our economy, and that are polluting our culture"...

I bet he even believes it's original...

The reality is that the countries with large welfare states will have a hard time winning out on this issue over countries with smaller welfare states, as much as they might want to. It's darned expensive for countries like France or Germany to embrace a large immigrant populace. America will have a better time of it.

Ultimately, however, immigration will win out. This issue combines the biggest elements of the Freedom, Equality, and Globalization movements. A lot of practical issues prevent it from happening now, but two hundred years from now, immigration will be an internationally recognized right. Populists will fight it, but they will lose. The handwriting is on the wall.

Sal Appa, do you still stand by your statements?

The jobs illegals take are jobs Americans want. Americans will run into burning buildings, mine coal deep beneath the surface, and join the army...why wouldn't they want to pick fruit. Plenty of students and homeless people would gladly pick fruit if they were given minimum wage. The problem is more the employers.

If we sealed the Mexican border with a wall and cracked down on employers hiring illegals and make them pay minimum wage(even if it has to be subsidized, Bill Gates has $40B+ rotting in the bank), a lot of the problem would be solved. As for nannies, plenty of people would gladly work as a nanny and many more if they were treated with more respect. Also, why do people have nannies? If you can't take care of a kid yourself, don't have the kid. Lawn care: Why do people want their grass to grow and then mow it down? There are plenty of students who would mow lawns. Parents should encourage their kids to mow lawns! I should be mowing a lawn instead of being here arguing about mowing lawns...I would be, but our grass never grows and the companies hiring Mexicans are too established already...but I might keep the idea in mind.

EDIT: Mexico isn't a dictatorship. Another problem: the DEA. We should be stopping drug addicts and suppliers, not the farmers growing the stuff. That's one reason why they come here.

What else is there that can really work? Look at china under mao, look at the USSR, look at N Korea (where people die in the streets of starvation and people walk on by because its so common)....and post quoted here.

The USSR countries are screwed up now because the communist economy ended. Farms really need to be government owned so costs aren't a problem.

The jobs illegals take are jobs Americans want. Plenty of students and homeless people would gladly pick fruit if they were given minimum wage. The problem is more the employers.

If we sealed the Mexican border with a wall and cracked down on employers hiring illegals and make them pay minimum wage(even if it has to be subsidized, Bill Gates has $40B+ rotting in the bank), a lot of the problem would be solved. As for nannies, plenty of people would gladly work as a nanny and many more if they were treated with more respect. Also, why do people have nannies? If you can't take care of a kid yourself, don't have the kid. Lawn care: Why do people want their grass to grow and then mow it down? There are plenty of students who would mow lawns. Parents should encourage their kids to mow lawns! I should be mowing a lawn instead of being here arguing about mowing lawns...I would be, but our grass never grows and the companies hiring Mexicans are too established already...but I might keep the idea in mind.

EDIT: Mexico isn't a dictatorship. Another problem: the DEA. We should be stopping drug addicts and suppliers, not the farmers growing the stuff. That's one reason why they come here.



The USSR countries are screwed up now because the communist economy ended. Farms really need to be government owned so costs aren't a problem.


People are people regardless of on which side of an arbitrary line they are born.

I dont know any students who want to pick fruit or clean filth for minimum wage.

You're completely wrong at best, dishonest at worst.
Either you don't know many people, the people you know have jobs, or the people you know are rich and don't need a job.

I would pick fruit.

What else is there that can really work? Look at china under mao, look at the USSR, look at N Korea (where people die in the streets of starvation and people walk on by because its so common). The market isnt perfect, nothing is, but the market is alot freer than centralised allocation - positive liberty undermines the individuals right to self determination. The market is the most flexible apparatus to run an economy as it isnt rigidly planned so it takes a hell of a lot bigger spanner to jam it than it would a centralised system.

You seem to think that capitalism is the end of economic evolution.

Sad to say, if things continue the way they are, it will be. We'll be living on NikeGoogleMart, third planetary superstore from the sun. I wonder how often, in hours, Wal*Mart puts a supplier out of business.

Things to think about.

Either you don't know many people, the people you know have jobs, or the people you know are rich and don't need a job.

I would pick fruit.

Then why are you here, posting on a forum, when you could be out picking fruit?

Oh, right. Because you're not in a circumstance where you'd have to, so you can't really say what you'd do.

If we sealed the Mexican border with a wall and cracked down on employers hiring illegals and make them pay minimum wage(even if it has to be subsidized, Bill Gates has $40B+ rotting in the bank), a lot of the problem would be solved. [...whining...]


What problem?

Cost of living would increase, companies would go out of business, &c. &c. &c.

How much econ. did you take in college?

I dont think Microsoft hires very many sub-minimum wage workers.

You propose dividing the fine solution we have now (nothing terribly wrong with the immigration status quo) into a number of problems. You dont propose to solve anything.

Why can't we bus in some of those people living in crippling poverty in apallacia (sp) (W. Virginia, Kentucky, etc) or the deep south (Mississippi, Alabama, etc) to pick fruit and work on lawns? I bet many of them would give their right arm to have a job. Any job. Those who do have a job in those regions already do crap jobs such as coal mining. They're not adverse to hard work. And they have families to support too. It wouldn't fill all the jobs available, but it would make a big dent.

That's what Americans did during the depression. They hopped trains out west to take seasonal jobs on farms. And I have no doubt many would still be willing to do it now.

The only reason that this hasn't happened is because many employers are too damn greedy/cheap pay minimum wage. We need to crack down on employers paying less than minimum wage to ANYONE. And we need to develop stronger unions both here and abroad to keep the greed of companies in check.

Either you don't know many people, the people you know have jobs, or the people you know are rich and don't need a job.

I would pick fruit.


You're in the tiny minority.

There are a great many more desirable jobs than picking fruit.

Picking fruit is strenuous, unpleasant labor.

There is a reason that only the most desperate people pick fruit for a living.

Did you read "The Grapes of Wrath" in high school?

Why can't we bus in some of those people living in crippling poverty in apallacia (sp) (W. Virginia, Kentucky, etc) or the deep south (Mississippi, Alabama, etc) to pick fruit and work on lawns? I bet many of them would give their right arm to have a job. Any job. Those who do have a job in those regions already do crap jobs such as coal mining. They're not adverse to hard work. And they have families to support too. It wouldn't fill all the jobs available, but it would make a big dent.

That's what Americans did during the depression. They hopped trains out west to take seasonal jobs on farms. And I have no doubt many would still be willing to do it now.

The only reason that this hasn't happened is because many employers are too damn greedy/cheap pay minimum wage. We need to crack down on employers paying less than minimum wage to ANYONE. And we need to develop stronger unions both here and abroad to keep the greed of companies in check.

Yes, because we treated those fleeing the dust bowl so well. :rolleyes:

Either you don't know many people, the people you know have jobs, or the people you know are rich and don't need a job.

I would pick fruit.
You'd pick fruit for around 12 hours a day earning minimum wage?

Why can't we bus in some of those people living in crippling poverty in apallacia (sp) (W. Virginia, Kentucky, etc) or the deep south (Mississippi, Alabama, etc) to pick fruit and work on lawns? I bet many of them would give their right arm to have a job. Any job. Those who do have a job in those regions already do crap jobs such as coal mining. They're not adverse to hard work. And they have families to support too. It wouldn't fill all the jobs available, but it would make a big dent.

That's what Americans did during the depression. They hopped trains out west to take seasonal jobs on farms. And I have no doubt many would still be willing to do it now.

The only reason that this hasn't happened is because many employers are too damn greedy/cheap pay minimum wage. We need to crack down on employers paying less than minimum wage to ANYONE. And we need to develop stronger unions both here and abroad to keep the greed of companies in check.

you think that people living in west virginia should be bussed to california in order to be migrant workers?

you think thats a GOOD idea?

i think you way over estimate the poverty in the appalachians and under estimate people's attachment to their homes.

its almost as odd a suggestion as having prisoner slave labor take the place of mexican migrant workers.

What else is there that can really work? Look at china under mao, look at the USSR, look at N Korea (where people die in the streets of starvation and people walk on by because its so common). The market isnt perfect, nothing is, but the market is alot freer than centralised allocation - positive liberty undermines the individuals right to self determination. The market is the most flexible apparatus to run an economy as it isnt rigidly planned so it takes a hell of a lot bigger spanner to jam it than it would a centralised system.

You are apparently under the impression that you either have pure, unbridled capitalism, or you have damn, dirty statist communism. This is a false dichotomy. There are plenty of ways of having controls over the market without destroying the market.

I would also add that in society today, the majority of people are denied their right to self-determination by the current economic system. It's an exercise in foolishness to say that you have the right to do something if you do not also have the material means to do it as well. In this instance, saying that people have the right to liberty makes no sense when you consider that their liberty exists only insofar as they then liscence it out in ever-expanding segments of time purely for the benefit of another. If that's liberty, then it's a worthless concept.

you think that people living in west virginia should be bussed to california in order to be migrant workers?

you think thats a GOOD idea?

i think you way over estimate the poverty in the appalachians and under estimate people's attachment to their homes.

its almost as odd a suggestion as having prisoner slave labor take the place of mexican migrant workers.

Yes, it is a good idea to allow Americans who want to work an oppertunity to do so. No one is talking about forced bussing or relocation. Many of these jobs are seasonal. When the job is done they could go back home if they want to and spend the money they earned there thus helping to improve the economy in their impoverished region. And instead of sending money out of the country, they would be sending it to parts of the US that badly need it.

And, as I already said, this wouldn't fill all the jobs out there. But it would fill quite a few and help Americans who need the help. The jobs remaining could be filled by some sort of legal and regulated guest worker program that provides the same wages and benifits to all workers.

i think you way over estimate the poverty in the appalachians


You think? Think again.

http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_item&itemid=565

"Only eight of the 410 counties in Appalachia are equal to or better than the national average on indicators like per-capita income, poverty, and unemployment rates, according to Ohio News Now. All eight counties are urban or suburban. Poverty remains the worst in central Appalachia, including eastern Kentucky. Of the 91 counties classified by the ARC as “distressed,” 35 are in eastern Kentucky. In these areas, poverty rates are double the national average, according to the AP.

Even these figures do not tell the whole story. The Ironton Tribune reports that Congressman Ted Strickland (D-Ohio), has asked the ARC and Ohio Governor Bob Taft to revise the qualifications for “distressed” counties. In a letter to the governor and the ARC, Taft argues that the US Labor Department’s unemployment figures are misleading. In Lawrence County, the local government reported an unemployment rate of 17.9 percent--three times the Labor Department’s figure. Taft writes, “Of this 17.9 percent, [more than] 10 percent are individuals who are unemployed but who have simply given up and stopped seeking work, a measure that is not included in the Department of Labor’s official measure of unemployment.” "

Yes, it is a good idea to allow Americans who want to work an oppertunity to do so. No one is talking about forced bussing or relocation. Many of these jobs are seasonal. When the job is done they could go back home if they want to and spend the money they earned there thus helping to improve the economy in their impoverished region. And instead of sending money out of the country, they would be sending it to parts of the US that badly need it.
I agree. Bill Gates can pay for the busing.

you think that people living in west virginia should be bussed to california in order to be migrant workers?

you think thats a GOOD idea?

i think you way over estimate the poverty in the appalachians and under estimate people's attachment to their homes.

its almost as odd a suggestion as having prisoner slave labor take the place of mexican migrant workers.
Prisoner slave labor? I support that as long as they are treated humanely. They should be making the gov't money, not draining it away. A lot of prisons are air-conditioned(my school is not, for the most part) and have better food than my school which serves processed shit for meat sauce.

I'm still in high school...you should expect random, half-baked comments. And yes I would pick fruit if the job was open and I needed it. I bet a lot of New Orleans people would gladly pick fruit or mow lawns and they have noweher to live, so they would likely move with ease to their jobs.

EDIT: 1968 Minimum Wage-$1.60($8.85 today) Today's minimum wage is $5.15 and won't be increased to $7.15 for two years I think.

I agree. Bill Gates can pay for the busing.


Prisoner slave labor? I support that as long as they are treated humanely. They should be making the gov't money, not draining it away. A lot of prisons are air-conditioned(my school is not, for the most part) and have better food than my school which serves processed shit for meat sauce.

I'm still in high school...you should expect random, half-baked comments. And yes I would pick fruit if the job was open and I needed it. I bet a lot of New Orleans people would gladly pick fruit or mow lawns and they have noweher to live, so they would likely move with ease to their jobs.

EDIT: 1968 Minimum Wage-$1.60($8.85 today) Today's minimum wage is $5.15 and won't be increased to $7.15 for two years I think.


What does Bill Gates have to do with picking fruit?

What gain do you expect to offset the enormous cost of evicting immigrants, fortifying the border with mexico and raising the minimum wage to entice americans to do unpleasant work?

What does Bill Gates have to do with picking fruit?

What gain do you expect to offset the enormous cost of evicting immigrants, fortifying the border with mexico and raising the minimum wage to entice americans to do unpleasant work?
He has $40B rotting in the bank. And so do many other billionaires. The Walton's also have nearly $100B combined...

He has $40B rotting in the bank. And so do many other billionaires. The Walton's also have nearly $100B combined...


Answer the questions.

A) What does bill gates have to do with picking fruit?

B) What gain do you expect will offset the enormous cost of evicting immigrants, fortifying the border with mexico and raising the minimum wage to entice americans to do unpleasant work?

You are apparently under the impression that you either have pure, unbridled capitalism, or you have damn, dirty statist communism. This is a false dichotomy. There are plenty of ways of having controls over the market without destroying the market.

I would also add that in society today, the majority of people are denied their right to self-determination by the current economic system. It's an exercise in foolishness to say that you have the right to do something if you do not also have the material means to do it as well. In this instance, saying that people have the right to liberty makes no sense when you consider that their liberty exists only insofar as they then liscence it out in ever-expanding segments of time purely for the benefit of another. If that's liberty, then it's a worthless concept.

You appear to be under the impression that I only landed on earth yesterday. lol. The point I was trying to make is that although capitalism is not prefect by a long way it is a darn site better than any of the supposed alternatives. If you're defining liberty as the ability to do what ever the hell you want without constraint then i accept your point, but in the real world liberty is more about having the right to make choices (however limited your options) rather than have someone make the choice for you. A person is always at their liberty to apply for a job, just as the person who reads the application is a their liberty to not offer the job, unlike in a friend of mine's vision of a perfect socialist state where someone who knows better than you places you into a job without your being able to challenge the decsion. Just because the nett out come of a decsion is negative it doesnt mean you are not free. It may mean you are not equal to someone else in talent or whatever, but the notion of liberty is not bound with equality, its bound in the individuals right to make decisions for themselves.

Why are all the liberal groups siding with them? I'm leftist and think they should be deported ASAP. No one should be with them or even sympathize. There ar eplenty of Americans who would kill for Illegals' jobs...I wonder why they don't.

Also, it's not xenophobic to want a job picking fruit that illegals have.

Not all of the liberal groups are siding with the illegal aliens. The mainstream (read Right-wing) media like to paint it as a simple right/left issue, but it's not.

On the right you have the corpratists who are pro-illegal immigration so that they can be exploited. You also have the racists who just don't want foreigners in this country, and you have the isolationists who don't want any more influences on our economy than necessary.

On the left you have the social justice people who believe that illegal immigration is just a side-effect of our bad foreign policy and that banning immigration is like passing laws against suing for negligent homocide so that people can run around shooting indicriminatly in all directions. You also have the anti-immigration populists who think that corporate tolerance of illegal immigration is just a concpiracy to drive down the wages of US workers.

If you want to hear some anti-illegal immigration leftists try Thom Hartman and Mike Malloy on Air America Radio. (http://www.airamericaradio.com/listen)

Why are all the liberal groups siding with them? I'm leftist and think they should be deported ASAP. No one should be with them or even sympathize. There ar eplenty of Americans who would kill for Illegals' jobs...I wonder why they don't.

Also, it's not xenophobic to want a job picking fruit that illegals have.being a Leftist has nothing to do with it.

(It does not happen often but) you could be racist even if you consider yourself Leftist.

Let us look at the facts. The illegal aliens/ immigrants are here....what class? ILLEGALY. They may be here for a vareity of good and humane reasons and I'll even concede (for the sake of argument) that most of them are good people. But they are here....what's that again...ILLEGALY.

They should be deported as rapidly as possible, the laws we already have should be enforced and the border should be gaurded, fenced, walled 24 hours a day.

If they want to come here that badly do it legally, we'd love to have ya. Or if you want the same life in your country that you have here fight and die for it, have a revolution or vote the bastards out.

Or if you want the same life in your country that you have here fight and die for it, have a revolution or vote the bastards out.
Mate, you didn't fight or die for anything. You are citizen by birth, maybe, or maybe not related to someone who fought and/or died.

The only thing that counts is whether or not one is willing to work hard to make your living and make something out of yourself. Illegal immigrants certainly do that, moreso than millions of citizens whose only justification for their sloth is that they were by chance born between the arbitrary lines that form the States.

Let us look at the facts. The illegal aliens/ immigrants are here....what class? ILLEGALY. They may be here for a vareity of good and humane reasons and I'll even concede (for the sake of argument) that most of them are good people. But they are here....what's that again...ILLEGALY.

They should be deported as rapidly as possible, the laws we already have should be enforced and the border should be gaurded, fenced, walled 24 hours a day.

If they want to come here that badly do it legally, we'd love to have ya. Or if you want the same life in your country that you have here fight and die for it, have a revolution or vote the bastards out.

Yeah, the Bush administration is the source of America's wealth. Awesome.

Of course, this illegality argument is a little bit rubbish, let's just say the laws against immigration were relaxed, what then? Would it then be ok? It seems a little bit of a technicality to me

I wish Sel Appa wouldn't respond to this thread, even though I agree with his main point.

A.Bill gates, and most millionaires, do not have their riches sitting in banks, rotting. Most of these people have their money invested in many different companies. This allows companies to grow, to expand, etc. This helps the economy. Taking their money, and spending it on govt. things, would be way worse for the economy than letting them keep it(don't get me wrong, I'm fine with them being taxed an amount similar to other people, but still...)

B. We shouldn't, and we don't need, to resort to these special things like shipping people to california, etc. You did get it partially right. We need to crack down on employers giving less than minimum wage, and hiring illegals. We should do our best to arrest illegals, and send them back over the border. However...

C. I heard this plan on the tv if I remember right, and it sounded pretty good. Illegals are felons. However, there is a limited amnesty. Illegals here for a certain amount of time(2-5 years, I forget) are eligible for green cards. Illegals here for like 5 more years than that, are eligible for citizenship. Anyone under these, is to be sent back.

I think immigration should be easier, and green cards as well. However, illegals hurt us. They don't pay taxes, they raise our healthcare burden, they send their money back to mexico(or wherever they come from) often, etc.

If we can get a number of them to become legal, paying taxes and all, then we can start using the money we get from them, to help pay to get rid of the illegals. It won't be instant; why does it have to be? It can be a program that goes for a decade, or more. I just think we should address the problem.

I wish Sel Appa wouldn't respond to this thread, even though I agree with his main point.

A.Bill gates, and most millionaires, do not have their riches sitting in banks, rotting. Most of these people have their money invested in many different companies. This allows companies to grow, to expand, etc. This helps the economy. Taking their money, and spending it on govt. things, would be way worse for the economy than letting them keep it(don't get me wrong, I'm fine with them being taxed an amount similar to other people, but still...)

B. We shouldn't, and we don't need, to resort to these special things like shipping people to california, etc. You did get it partially right. We need to crack down on employers giving less than minimum wage, and hiring illegals. We should do our best to arrest illegals, and send them back over the border. However...

C. I heard this plan on the tv if I remember right, and it sounded pretty good. Illegals are felons. However, there is a limited amnesty. Illegals here for a certain amount of time(2-5 years, I forget) are eligible for green cards. Illegals here for like 5 more years than that, are eligible for citizenship. Anyone under these, is to be sent back.

I think immigration should be easier, and green cards as well. However, illegals hurt us. They don't pay taxes, they raise our healthcare burden, they send their money back to mexico(or wherever they come from) often, etc.

If we can get a number of them to become legal, paying taxes and all, then we can start using the money we get from them, to help pay to get rid of the illegals. It won't be instant; why does it have to be? It can be a program that goes for a decade, or more. I just think we should address the problem.


They do, however, lower the cost of living for the rest of us and increase productivity and cost-efficiency in businesses where they are heavily employed. It doesnt appear that their "healthcare burden" is greater than the gain to the rest of the economy that they provide.

They do, however, lower the cost of living for the rest of us and increase productivity and cost-efficiency in businesses where they are heavily employed. It doesnt appear that their "healthcare burden" is greater than the gain to the rest of the economy that they provide.

Well said Mr Granada,

In fact, I think if you consider that 4% of the population is here illegally, and there must therefore be net benefit in that exchange, pretty clearly the benefits of having them in the country outweight the losses.

Well said Mr Granada,

In fact, I think if you consider that 4% of the population is here illegally, and there must therefore be net benefit in that exchange, pretty clearly the benefits of having them in the country outweight the losses.

I might see if I can track an article I encountered about this...

It compared the 'costs' of so many 'illegal' immigrants, against the overall economic bonus (like the reduced cost of home-grown vegetables), and arrived at the conclusion that the two factors petty much balanced out, with a very small overall 'gain'.

Edit: Article that mentions the thing I'm talking about:

"There are places in the United States where illegal immigration has big effects (both positive and negative). But economists generally believe that when averaged over the whole economy, the effect is a small net positive. Harvard's George Borjas says the average American's wealth is increased by less than 1 percent because of illegal immigration."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5312900

(This isn't actually what I was looking for, but it mentions George Borjas' concusions, which IS what I wanted...)