NationStates Jolt Archive

I am unfortunately going to see family over the weekend. Lots of very devout, very Catholic family. Needless to say, I am going to need all the ammo I can get when I get the endless "why are you a godless heathen" and "why are you an atheist" questions. So I am coming to you, the atheists, agnostics, antitheists, and yes, even the plain old anti-Catholics of General to aid me in my plight.

And while we're at it, we can make a nice little thread with all our fun facts about how the Church is full of crap.

The two biggies I am looking for are 1) which pope it was who owned the fishing business and thought "hey, it'll be a great idea if I make them eat fish every Friday!" and 2) the pope who convinced everyone Mary Magdeline (sp?) was a hooker by refering to it in some speech, when he had really just confused her with someone else. Dates and links will be appreciated as always.

Unrelated poll coming.

...

Why don't you at least pretend to be the better person and ignore them instead?

I have something to tell you! Happy Easter

591 AD, by pope Gregory I. Here's an article (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MKY/is_11_28/ai_n6244768) about it (on a catholic site :) )

I don't know about the fish guy, but the Catholic church used to be a lot stricter regarding fasting rules... my great-grandmother wouldn't eat meat on either Wednesday nor Friday. Not that she ever had a clue why, it was just what the priests had said.

can't you all just get along on a religious level and instead fight about how many Easter eggs your siblings got?

also Easter and Christmas have become traditions as well so its all good

edit: woot! its my nations 1st birthday

Perhaps a TG to Grave_n_idle and/or Tropical Sands is in order?
Both of them are brilliant and quite tactful.
My two cents.

Happy Christmas/Easter are hardly religious greetings in my mind so much as they are simply the names of holiday periods in the year. I'm an atheist and not at all offended. Well, I did not get any chocolate eggs so far, which offends me. :mad:

Well, considering Christmas (and probably Easter too, if I look it up) has basically nothing to do with Christianity...Not so much.

Well, I did not get any chocolate eggs so far, which offends me. :mad:

the wheels are in motion: http://www.transportcafe.co.uk/image16/cadbury_creme_egg.jpg

also found this whilst on my crusade to find a egg pic: http://www.gardenoffriendship.org/~cardshoppe/Easter/easter-2-cs.jpg

and a very hoppy easter to all of NS:D *shares love*

Happy Christmas/Easter are hardly religious greetings in my mind so much as they are simply the names of holiday periods in the year. I'm an atheist and not at all offended. Well, I did not get any chocolate eggs so far, which offends me. :mad:

Here ya go...

http://www.chocolate-chocolate.com/chocolate-easter-eggs-13.jpg

I just don't talk about being agnostic in the hopes that they won't talk to me about being religious. It works well.

Well lets see, since its around Easter time, perhaps you should outline the pagan rituals involved to them. I would suggest mentioning the pagan origin of every religious action they take that has one, each time they do it. That should turn the tables quickly.

Start by explaining how the very word "Easter" is derived from the name of the pagan goddess Eastre. If they don't believe you, then point out the fact that it was a Catholic saint, St. Bede, that first outlined the etymology and origin of this tradition in his De Temporum Ratione. If you do the eggs and rabbit thing, make sure to mention that both of those were pagan fertility symbols as well. Also show them how close it is to the vernal equinox, and how its date relates to its previous pagan origins.

When/if you go to Church and take Eucharist, explain to them how the Eucharist was previously a pagan ritual. Make sure to cite Justin Martyr's First Apology, where he states that adherents of the Mithras cult "commanded the same thing to be done" in regards to the Eucharist. In fact, you could go on about how Martyr admitted that there are pagan influences in the Jesus story from the Stoics, Plato, and the cults of Dionysus, Jupiter, and Aesculapius.

Along those lines, regarding the Eucharist, you can point out how the Gospel of John stole something right out of the Mithraic liturgy:

Mithraic Liturgy, "He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation."
John 6:53, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Try to find as many resources that demonstrate the pagan influences in the Jesus myth as you can, there are tons out there. They seem to do the best job of refuting the story of Jesus all together.

I'm sure they will get on your case about "salvation" too. Point out to them that Jesus cannot actually save anyone, according to the Jewish scriptures (Old Testament), and the Law in the Torah which God stated was eternal. In short, it states that God (The one Catholics would refer to as "the Father") is the only one who can do any saving (Isaiah 45:11). Psalm 145:3 states that the "son of man" (a title which Jesus used for himself more than any other), can not save at all. Numbers 23:19 clearly states that God is not the son of man (as Jesus admitted he was), and Deut. 12:30 states that human sacrifice is an abomination. Hosea 4:15 states that God would never manifest with an image (as Jesus did), Job 9:32 states that there is no mediator between God and man (as Jesus is suppossed to be), and Deut 13:2 states never to worship anything that Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness have not experienced (they didn't experience Jesus). Also point out that Deut 12:31, 1 Samuel 15:22, and Psalm 40:6 all state that prayer and repentence is necessary to attain salvation, and that sacrifice is not necessary. Make sure to explain that nowhere does it state that sacrifice is the only or necessary way to make sin atonement, and even if it were, Jesus was not a sacrifice according to the Torah.

Hopefully between the pagan origins of the Jesus myth, and the fact that the Jesus myth is inconsistent with what the Jewish Scriptures regarding the messiah, God, and salvation, you will have enough ammo to deal with them and make them think a bit. For further resources, you can check out my website (shameless plug), its all about this type of stuff. Make sure to check out the links at the very bottom to other counter-missionary websites, as well.

http://shemaantimissionary.tripod.com/index.html

Well lets see, since its around Easter time, perhaps you should outline the pagan rituals involved to them. I would suggest mentioning the pagan origin of every religious action they take that has one, each time they do it. That should turn the tables quickly.

Start by explaining how the very word "Easter" is derived from the name of the pagan goddess Eastre. If they don't believe you, then point out the fact that it was a Catholic saint, St. Bede, that first outlined the etymology and origin of this tradition in his De Temporum Ratione. If you do the eggs and rabbit thing, make sure to mention that both of those were pagan fertility symbols as well. Also show them how close it is to the vernal equinox, and how its date relates to its previous pagan origins.

When/if you go to Church and take Eucharist, explain to them how the Eucharist was previously a pagan ritual. Make sure to cite Justin Martyr's First Apology, where he states that adherents of the Mithras cult "commanded the same thing to be done" in regards to the Eucharist. In fact, you could go on about how Martyr admitted that there are pagan influences in the Jesus story from the Stoics, Plato, and the cults of Dionysus, Jupiter, and Aesculapius.

Along those lines, regarding the Eucharist, you can point out how the Gospel of John stole something right out of the Mithraic liturgy:

Mithraic Liturgy, "He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation."
John 6:53, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Try to find as many resources that demonstrate the pagan influences in the Jesus myth as you can, there are tons out there. They seem to do the best job of refuting the story of Jesus all together.

I'm sure they will get on your case about "salvation" too. Point out to them that Jesus cannot actually save anyone, according to the Jewish scriptures (Old Testament), and the Law in the Torah which God stated was eternal. In short, it states that God (The one Catholics would refer to as "the Father") is the only one who can do any saving (Isaiah 45:11). Psalm 145:3 states that the "son of man" (a title which Jesus used for himself more than any other), can not save at all. Numbers 23:19 clearly states that God is not the son of man (as Jesus admitted he was), and Deut. 12:30 states that human sacrifice is an abomination. Hosea 4:15 states that God would never manifest with an image (as Jesus did), Job 9:32 states that there is no mediator between God and man (as Jesus is suppossed to be), and Deut 13:2 states never to worship anything that Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness have not experienced (they didn't experience Jesus). Also point out that Deut 12:31, 1 Samuel 15:22, and Psalm 40:6 all state that prayer and repentence is necessary to attain salvation, and that sacrifice is not necessary. Make sure to explain that nowhere does it state that sacrifice is the only or necessary way to make sin atonement, and even if it were, Jesus was not a sacrifice according to the Torah.

Hopefully between the pagan origins of the Jesus myth, and the fact that the Jesus myth is inconsistent with what the Jewish Scriptures regarding the messiah, God, and salvation, you will have enough ammo to deal with them and make them think a bit. For further resources, you can check out my website (shameless plug), its all about this type of stuff. Make sure to check out the links at the very bottom to other counter-missionary websites, as well.

http://shemaantimissionary.tripod.com/index.html
See what i mean? :)

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10760069&postcount=6

Halibut Deep-Fried Fish
Wedge French Fries
..
I see no problem with Pope Fishery
Fish and Chips are the fillet of life.

Tell them gods are not required to explain the world, that faith is non-essential, and that in view of this, your attitude is pretty much meh.

Mabye just point out how ironic it is that a religion that is supposed to be based on love and empathy is the foundation of arguably the greatest warrior tradition in the known universe. Further point out that this is proof of the Church's corruption of scripture as it becomes its own entity, with seperate goals and morals than the Holy Teachings of Jesus Christ. Continue by pointing out that, although Christianity acts in many ways, if not aligned with Christ's holy teaching, even contrary to them, the Church's acts still carry the (stolen) moral authority of Jesus christ. Finish up by pointing out the illogicallity of the entire concept of God, and how much more exponentially illogical religion becomes when you start qualifying God, as christianity has done.

boy thats a bad post

1) which pope it was who owned the fishing business and thought "hey, it'll be a great idea if I make them eat fish every Friday!"
HOLY CRAP, which pope was that?

oh you should just comment on how good dinner is and how much better it is now than it was in the past (or how much you miss grandma's recipes if it will start more of a fight) then let them fight over THAT instead of religion

when it dies down, start in on how cadbury eggs are an abomination (or the bestest thing ever if it will start more of a fight)

then go on to the new baseball season and how your dad's favorite team is sure to suck this year (or win the whole thing if grandpa favors someone else)

and if all else fails, talk about how stupid the new xbox is (or how much the ps3 is going to suck if that will start more of a fight)


no need to mention religion at all. theres lots of other stuff to fight about.

and if all else fails, talk about how stupid the new xbox is (or how much the ps3 is going to suck if that will start more of a fight)
Are you a Revolution man?

Are you a Revolution man?

VIVA NINTENDO!

VIVA NINTENDO!
LIMBO YES!!

no need to mention religion at all. theres lots of other stuff to fight about.

To you and all the others who have said to not bring it up, or to be a better person and ignore it, or whatever:

First, I do not bring up religion. The family considers me a "project" to be reclaimed, and they use every family get together to badger me senseless with their religion. I am just fed up with it, and have decided to stop being the quiet atheist and ignoring them. I am now going to be the vocal antitheist and rant off facts about how their religion is full of crap. Maybe then they will learn to not ask/bother/harass me about it.

The whole inquisition/crusades thing is just my warm up act. I am arming for war this time.

Are you a Revolution man?

just because i have owned every version of every nintendo game machine ever sold doesnt mean im automatically going to go with the revolution

but

i would never spend my money on another microsoft product if it was possible

did you see the announced price of the ps3? its going to be somewhere around $700! im willing to wait a few years until it reaches a sane price.

To you and all the others who have said to not bring it up, or to be a better person and ignore it, or whatever:

First, I do not bring up religion. The family considers me a "project" to be reclaimed, and they use every family get together to badger me senseless with their religion. I am just fed up with it, and have decided to stop being the quiet atheist and ignoring them. I am now going to be the vocal antitheist and rant off facts about how their religion is full of crap. Maybe then they will learn to not ask/bother/harass me about it.

The whole inquisition/crusades thing is just my warm up act. I am arming for war this time.
My family is Catholic that if I told anyone other than my immediate family that I was an atheist, they would kill me.

My family is Catholic that if I told anyone other than my immediate family that I was an atheist, they would kill me.

Possibly with a stoning.

To you and all the others who have said to not bring it up, or to be a better person and ignore it, or whatever:

First, I do not bring up religion. The family considers me a "project" to be reclaimed, and they use every family get together to badger me senseless with their religion. I am just fed up with it, and have decided to stop being the quiet atheist and ignoring them. I am now going to be the vocal antitheist and rant off facts about how their religion is full of crap. Maybe then they will learn to not ask/bother/harass me about it.

The whole inquisition/crusades thing is just my warm up act. I am arming for war this time.
i like the quote that fass used to have in his signature...


"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
— Stephen Roberts

I'm actually much more annoyed when people think that Easter is all about egg hunts and worthless crap like that. The Easter Bunny didn't die for your sins, people!

And those aren't anti-religious facts, just anti-catholic facts. And a lot of beliefs Catholics support can sometimes be straight up bullcrap that the pope thinks is a good idea.:(

I'm actually much more annoyed when people think that Easter is all about egg hunts and worthless crap like that. The Easter Bunny didn't die for your sins, people!

And those aren't anti-religious facts, just anti-catholic facts. And a lot of beliefs Catholics support can sometimes be straight up bullcrap that the pope thinks is a good idea.:(

Jesus didn't die for your sins any more than the Easter bunny did. The two beliefs are on par, in that respect.

I'm actually much more annoyed when people think that Easter is all about egg hunts and worthless crap like that. The Easter Bunny didn't die for your sins, people!

Ah, but he did. See? (http://www.doei.org/misc/Easter_is_cancelled.jpg)

when people go all commercially crazy about Easter sometimes I wish that would happen >_>

Well, considering Christmas (and probably Easter too, if I look it up) has basically nothing to do with Christianity...Not so much.

r u stupid? that's gotta b the dumbest thing ive ever heard in my life...i'm a complete athiest and even i kno that Christmas is the day jesus was born, 2nd holiest day in the Christian religion and Easter was the day he was ressurected and went up and opened the gates of heaven...most holy day of the Christian religion.

I'm sure they will get on your case about "salvation" too. Point out to them that Jesus cannot actually save anyone, according to the Jewish scriptures (Old Testament), and the Law in the Torah which God stated was eternal. In short, it states that God (The one Catholics would refer to as "the Father") is the only one who can do any saving (Isaiah 45:11). Psalm 145:3 states that the "son of man" (a title which Jesus used for himself more than any other), can not save at all. Numbers 23:19 clearly states that God is not the son of man (as Jesus admitted he was), and Deut. 12:30 states that human sacrifice is an abomination.

Human sacrifice being an abomination can be viewed as a reference to the readers to not kill another person and offer them as a sacrifice. Your reading here seems to be very broad.

Hosea 4:15 states that God would never manifest with an image (as Jesus did), Job 9:32 states that there is no mediator between God and man (as Jesus is suppossed to be),

Christians believe that Jesus is God so this statement you are making seems somewhat peculiar.

r u stupid? that's gotta b the dumbest thing ive ever heard in my life...i'm a complete athiest and even i kno that Christmas is the day jesus was born, 2nd holiest day in the Christian religion and Easter was the day he was ressurected and went up and opened the gates of heaven...most holy day of the Christian religion.

Yeah, except Jesus was born in spring, and Christmas just happens to coincide with Saturnalia, hence the twelve days of Christmas thing. I believe Easter's been gone over previously in this thread.

Possibly with a stoning.
I doubt my grandpa or my grandma could lift a stone.

I doubt my grandpa or my grandma could lift a stone.

They might find pebbles.

They might find pebbles.
Stoned with pebbles?
Wait, is pebbles some kind of drug?

"I'll take another hit of thoes pebbles."

Human sacrifice being an abomination can be viewed as a reference to the readers to not kill another person and offer them as a sacrifice. Your reading here seems to be very broad.

Christians believe that Jesus is God so this statement you are making seems somewhat peculiar.

Well sure, if you interpret it as something other than what it says. It simply states human sacrifice. Thus, there is no reason to assume that it refers to sacrificing another human being but not yourself. Thats reading into it, whereas I'm simply stating that it refers to human sacrifice. The idea that Jesus was a human and a sin atonement sacrifice, as Christians claim, is inconsistent with the laws that were given to Moses in the Torah. In fact, it lists all of the appropriate sacrifices and their methods, and a human being dying on a stick isn't one of them.

I've also demonstrated how, according to the Torah, Jesus isn't God. Sure, Christians can believe that Jesus is God if they want, but its a belief that is inconsistent with what the Torah teaches. The idea that God is a mediator between God and man is inconsistent with what Job stated (that there is no mediator) as well, so even if we assume Jesus is God we have an inconsistent statement about what Job teaches us about the nature of God and salvation.

You realize that Job is very easily pronounced a non-canon parable.

Stoned with pebbles?
Wait, is pebbles some kind of drug?

"I'll take another hit of thoes pebbles."

Well, other family members would use stones, the grandparents can just use pebbles...they might hit you in the nose or something.

Well, other family members would use stones, the grandparents can just use pebbles...they might hit you in the nose or something.
My family is very nice to me, they probably wouldn't stone me or get stoned for that matter. My cousins parents are a little bit to creationist for me but other than that having 5 uncles on one side has its perks (like lots of money).

My family is very nice to me, they probably wouldn't stone me or get stoned for that matter. My cousins parents are a little bit to creationist for me but other than that having 5 uncles on one side has its perks (like lots of money).

I've got a godmother that works in D.C. ;)

You realize that Job is very easily pronounced a non-canon parable.

Job is part of the Jewish and Catholic canons. Now, if you're referring to how we classify it as kethuvim I understand what you're getting at. However, we do draw from kethuvim in regards to developing theology and halacha.

Catholics (usually) view all of their Bible as divinely inspired, so using Job to demonstrate something to a Catholic would be just as authoritative as any other Biblical scripture. I can't see a Catholic dismissing it as a non-canon parable to avoid getting around what it states.

I am having a hard time finding the pope who changed the rule to allow fish to be eaten on days when meat was forbidden. I know it was 9th century, but I can only find vague references. I *think* it was Pope Nicholas I, because he was from a wealthy family, and in all those negotiations he had with the Bulgars to bring them into the church the rules of fasting were a sticking point. I vaguely remember something about him killing two birds with one stone by letting the Bulgars eat fish to help "bring them into the fold", while making his mommy and daddy very rich in the process. If anyone can find a specific reference that would be great.

I've got a godmother that works in D.C. ;)
What does that have to do with what I said? :confused:

Whats really sad is that despite the fact that I am 16 and an Atheist, my mother still makes me go to church, on pain of punishment.

Well, I am an athiest (and sadly, with a huge super-Catholic family. I haven't yet told them I am an athiest, I can only imagine what will happen when I do. Ooh-boy) and I can say that I'm not too bothered by people wishing me a Merry Christmas and/or a Happy Easter. They are mainly excuses for getting off for a few days, plus Christmas is rapidly become much less religious and more just a secular gift-giving holiday. At least, I view it more secularily that it's more an exchange of gifts with those you care for and less a religious holiday.

As for your meeting with your family, my suggestion is, if engaged in a discussion about why you don't believe in God, USE THE OLD TESTIMENT. The Old Testiment has got so many passages of God commiting genocide, destroying cities, killing thousands, ordering his "chosen people" to slaughter, pillage, and burn, and all different fun things like that. Using their own holy book against them seems to work quite well.

Sincerely,
Cicijo

What does that have to do with what I said? :confused:

Whats really sad is that despite the fact that I am 16 and an Atheist, my mother still makes me go to church, on pain of punishment.

Family perks *shrug*.

I recommend convincing them to go to parties late on Saturday.

Whats really sad is that despite the fact that I am 16 and an Atheist, my mother still makes me go to church, on pain of punishment.

I got you beat. I am 29, and whenever I see family, they threaten to not let me see my 2nd cousins (the loveable brats!) ever again if I don't go to mass with them.

Family perks *shrug*.

I recommend convincing them to go to parties late on Saturday.
I don't even go to parties, really ever.

Man, I have no life.

I don't even go to parties, really ever.

Man, I have no life.

You don't have to go, just them. *nod*

You don't have to go, just them. *nod*
My mother (and my father, who isn't catholic) would never go to a party that would somehow prevent her from waking up in the morning.

I have though about taking the punishment. I might get use to not using the computer. Then I remeber I'm sane. God I'm so addicted to the internet.

From Pogue's Song Spoofs (http://www.davidpogue.com/songs.html):
Doorbell rings, I'm not listenin';
From my mouth, drool is glistenin'
I'm happy -- although my boss let me go,
I'm Happily Addicted to the Web.

All night long, I keep clicking;
Unaware time is ticking;
There's beard on my cheek, same clothes for a week,
I'm Happily Addicted to the Web.

Friends come by, they shake me, sayin' "Yo, man!
Don't you know tonight's the senior prom?"
With a listless shrug, I mutter, "No, man --
I've just discovered Letterman-dot-com!"

I don't phone, don't send faxes;
Don't go out, don't pay taxes.
Who cares if someday they haul me away?
I'm Happily Addicted to the Web.
Happily Addicted to the Web.
Happily Addicted to the Web!

*snip*

Move into the public library.

Move into the public library.
I know how to get on the internet on thoes locked down computers.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/ this should give you all that you need. Also this should help as well. http://www.atheists.org/christianity/index.html

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/ this should give you all that you need. Also this should help as well. http://www.atheists.org/christianity/index.html
I feel like a giddy little school girl with ADHD.