NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, since the thread in which we were talking about this has been closed, I will now start a thread about whether or not animals have intelligence. Quite a few people in that last thread said that animals (besides humans), have no intelligence, only instinct. I say that all animals have balanced levels of intelligence and instinct, just like humans. What do you say?

Instinct.
Always instinct.

Depends on the animal. A black widow spider probably operates on nearly pure instinct. A pigeon has a little of both, a human has more intelligence but his behavior is still motivated by instincts.

The Great Apes? Both.

The Great Apes? Intelligence.
Its all still instinct then. The capacity to survive is all instinct and everything they do is largely based on it. They don't understand abstract ideas.

Depends on the animal. A black widow spider probably operates on nearly pure instinct. A pigeon has a little of both, a human has more intelligence but his behavior is still motivated by instincts.

The Black Widow is an animal? :eek: :p

Its all still instinct then. The capacity to survive is all instinct and everything they do is largely based on it. They don't understand abstract ideas.
How abstract? They can, unlike many birds, understand that a mirror shows an image of themselves. recognizing that the image in the mirror is you, not another of your species is kind of abstract.

Its all still instinct then. The capacity to survive is all instinct and everything they do is largely based on it. They don't understand abstract ideas.

Problem solving and rudimentary language is also based intelligence.

Well, since the thread in which we were talking about this has been closed, I will now start a thread about whether or not animals have intelligence. Quite a few people in that last thread said that animals (besides humans), have no intelligence, only instinct. I say that all animals have balanced levels of intelligence and instinct, just like humans. What do you say?
Like in the last thread, I'll suggest this again -- just because one believes animals may have intelligence doesn't mean that they believe they are balanced levels. I'm certain that there's the potential for intellect in many creatures -- however, I'm still on the side that instinct will almost certainly always win out with "lower beings" because of their apparent lesser capacity.

So I still fit neither mold you set forth :(

Well, since the thread in which we were talking about this has been closed, I will now start a thread about whether or not animals have intelligence. Quite a few people in that last thread said that animals (besides humans), have no intelligence, only instinct. I say that all animals have balanced levels of intelligence and instinct, just like humans. What do you say?
In as much as intelligence is simply thought other than instinct, I think it's an open question, but one that probably leads to animals having some degree of intelligence.

However, it could also be argued that the key aspect of intelligence is the ability to restrain instinct through introspection; in which case, not all animals have it.

Mind you, whether it's instinct or not, my cat is pretty damned smart.

Problem solving and rudimentary language is also based intelligence.
So animals don't have a language? Wrong. They do have a language, we simply don't understand it. So we presume they don't have a language, and from that we presume that they are unintelligent.

Considering I have observed apes and bears acting in ways suspiciously close to adaptive planning (climbing a tree, loosening the rope of a nut and birdseed filled tray, climbing out again and consuming the now reachable nuts) - I do believe some animals are capable of acting on more than just "instinct". That doesn't mean I expect them to start thinking about the meaning of life, the universe and everything anytime soon though...

Considering I have observed apes and bears acting in ways suspiciously close to adaptive planning (climbing a tree, loosening the rope of a nut and birdseed filled tray, climbing out again and consuming the now reachable nuts) - I do believe some animals are capable of acting on more than just "instinct". That doesn't mean I expect them to start thinking about the meaning of life, the universe and everything anytime soon though...
Don't want any poor animals having to worry or think about that like I do. If animals did think about that, then there'd be alot more animals commiting suicide.

Considering I have observed apes and bears acting in ways suspiciously close to adaptive planning (climbing a tree, loosening the rope of a nut and birdseed filled tray, climbing out again and consuming the now reachable nuts) - I do believe some animals are capable of acting on more than just "instinct". That doesn't mean I expect them to start thinking about the meaning of life, the universe and everything anytime soon though...
Yeah, seriously, I mean....baby steps. Don't throw them in on higher level reading like that. That's just setting yourself up for disappointment.

I know, I know....I'll shut up....

So animals don't have a language? Wrong. They do have a language, we simply don't understand it. So we presume they don't have a language, and from that we presume that they are unintelligent.

Slow down my boy (or is it girl?), I study Primatology. You are reading more into what I am saying ;)

How abstract? They can, unlike many birds, understand that a mirror shows an image of themselves. recognizing that the image in the mirror is you, not another of your species is kind of abstract.

Like numbers, thoughts and things you cannot see.
Of course you know what yourself looks like. XD

Considering I have observed apes and bears acting in ways suspiciously close to adaptive planning (climbing a tree, loosening the rope of a nut and birdseed filled tray, climbing out again and consuming the now reachable nuts) - I do believe some animals are capable of acting on more than just "instinct". That doesn't mean I expect them to start thinking about the meaning of life, the universe and everything anytime soon though...

My cat figured out how to steal ham from the refrigerator. Also, he only does it when he sees me put ham in there.

Then I bought a new fridge without a door handle. That fixed the little bastard.

Slow down my boy (or is it girl?), I study Primatology. You are reading more into what I am saying ;)
Boy. I'm 13. Jeez, haven't you been in any contact with me?

Like numbers, thoughts and things you cannot see.
Of course you know what yourself looks like. XD
One can't know ones own appearance without first recognizing that a mirror image is, in fact, not just another species member.

If you'd NEVER EVER EVER seen a mirror or a similar reflective surface, you'd question whether or not it was yourself at first, as well. It's only because of the logical higher processes that you could swiftly come to the conclusion that it's not another person. Many animals can't do that.

Like numbers, thoughts and things you cannot see.
Of course you know what yourself looks like. XD
Birds don't. Place a mirror in a cage with a male bird. He'll peck at it to drive away the "rival".

My cat figured out how to steal ham from the refrigerator. Also, he only does it when he sees me put ham in there.

Then I bought a new fridge without a door handle. That fixed the little bastard.
They observe you doing it yourself. Apes are smarter and realize if they do this and this they can get that.

Birds don't. Place a mirror in a cage with a male bird. He'll peck at it to drive away the "rival".

Actually...that's not right; because our bird cage has a mirror and the male sits infront of it and chirps away and looks at it and flies around in the cage nice and happy. He doesn't attack it.

They observe you doing it yourself. Apes are smarter and realize if they do this and this they can get that.
Yes, but the cats LEARNED, did they not. That is evidence of intelligence

Birds don't. Place a mirror in a cage with a male bird. He'll peck at it to drive away the "rival".
Additionally, let's not forget that many varieties of fish will tear themselves apart trying to kill a "rival" if you have a mirrored tank or put a mirror in the tank with them. (I've lost many a good fish when the whelps I babysat thought they'd have fun with that.)

Like numbers, thoughts and things you cannot see.
Of course you know what yourself looks like. XD

So if you don't understand the arabic number system, you are not intelligent?

How about taking symbols and using them to create a word for something they want?

How about an ASL chimp teaching her son how to sign?

Actually many animals don't understand the mirror and or think it's another animal.

Gordon Gallup showed they were able to distinguish something new was on their body.
To repost:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10748980&postcount=109

Just to repost this:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10748963&postcount=106

Simonist']Additionally, let's not forget that many varieties of fish will tear themselves apart trying to kill a "rival" if you have a mirrored tank or put a mirror in the tank with them. (I've lost many a good fish when the whelps I babysat thought they'd have fun with that.)
Yeah, but if goldfish memories are anything to compare to other fish memories, well, it doesn't say much for the fish.

Actually...that's not right; because our bird cage has a mirror and the male sits infront of it and chirps away and looks at it and flies around in the cage nice and happy. He doesn't attack it.
Like fish, it also depends on the variety of bird. For instance, if you take one that's naturally more violent, like a cardinal or bluejay, it's highly likely to attack (or sometimes break its neck on the window as it tries to kill the "other bird" and then fall in your fountain and then you have to go fish it out so it doesn't freak out the other birds and squirrels....but I digress), whereas a more docile variety like a pidgeon or a cockatiel is far less likely to act aggressively.

Actually...that's not right; because our bird cage has a mirror and the male sits infront of it and chirps away and looks at it and flies around in the cage nice and happy. He doesn't attack it.
Many do. I've seen video of a peacock attacking it's own reflection in a shiny automobile's paint.

Boy. I'm 13. Jeez, haven't you been in any contact with me?

Hmmmm? Maybe maybe not? Some days my long term memory is about 5 minutes. ;)

Yeah, but if goldfish memories are anything to compare to other fish memories, well, it doesn't say much for the fish.
Goldfish are not representative of most of the fish people keep. Granted, fish in general have a relatively short memory span, but if memory serves the average ryuken, for instance, has a memory of up to a minute and a half -- far better than the paltry few seconds of the goldfish.

Hmmmm? Maybe maybe not? Some days my long term memory is about 5 minutes. ;)
Still smarter than the average fish :p

Many do. I've seen video of a peacock attacking it's own reflection in a shiny automobile's paint.

Wow....that's just stupid, more to instinct then. :p

Its all still instinct then. The capacity to survive is all instinct and everything they do is largely based on it. They don't understand abstract ideas.

Some apes have been taught sign language. When they don't have words for things already taught to them, they make up their own from the words they do have - seems pretty abstract to me.

They did a study with at least one ape who had been raised by humans and taught sign language. They asked him, in several cases, to sort pictures of humans and apes into piles. He did so completely correctly, save one. Every single picture of himself was placed in the "human" pile. While we would say he was incorrect, he understood that he was different from the other apes.

A recent study demonstrated that some apes/monkeys understand fairness - becoming angry when they or their close relations received a lesser prize for the same task than another animal. When both were given the lesser prize, no problem.

Another study found that chimps (IIRC) can understand the "value" of money, and will, in fact, create their own economy with it. The first things they paid each other for? Sex and grooming, LOL.

ROFL!
Pre-human. :X
Okay they have reason. XD

Some apes have been taught sign language. When they don't have words for things already taught to them, they make up their own from the words they do have - seems pretty abstract to me.

They did a study with at least one ape who had been raised by humans and taught sign language. They asked him, in several cases, to sort pictures of humans and apes into piles. He did so completely correctly, save one. Every single picture of himself was placed in the "human" pile. While we would say he was incorrect, he understood that he was different from the other apes.

A recent study demonstrated that some apes/monkeys understand fairness - becoming angry when they or their close relations received a lesser prize for the same task than another animal. When both were given the lesser prize, no problem.

Another study found that chimps (IIRC) can understand the "value" of money, and will, in fact, create their own economy with it. The first things they paid each other for? Sex and grooming, LOL.

I knew I liked you for a reason. :p

Chimps have also shown to practice rudimentary politics and reward for support of the Alpha(ie more bananas then others).

Even when most of the animals show more instinct than intelligence, it is my believe that they have both. Humans posses little instinct because of our enviroment, and have given it up to CULTURE.

Instinct is something you cannot control though.

Even when most of the animals show more instinct than intelligence, it is my believe that they have both. Humans posses little instinct because of our enviroment, and have given it up to CULTURE.
Humans are still motivated by instincts. Culture is an adaptation to channel instinctive drives and allow larger groups of humans to coexist together. In small bands violence is much more common when two bands meet. In a modern culture, like a nation, the entire nation is culturally tied together. It's a huge band, and taboos against killing and stealing from fellow members greatly reduce internecine violence. Still the instinct to make the distinction between "Us" and "Them", and to value "Their" lives less exists. That's what makes humans so good at war.

Instinct is something you cannot control though.
Sure you can. Humans have an instinct for self preservation. They can overcome it. Usually by choosing to follow another instinct, like protection of one's young.

That value of lives BS...is just that. BS.
Humans are compassionate and caring, but when wronged they are the first to lead to selfishness.

well my little terrier mix (dog) Molly is a smart little bugger... dogs are generally very well-suited to people anyway -- that's how they come off the assembly line -- but Molly is especially adept (compared to other dogs in my experience) at understanding mood, key phrases (she's memorized probably at least 20, and her reactions are predictable), and gestures.

Now dogs are especially adept at such learning, which is to say I wouldn't expect a deer to assimilate with humans so successfully, at least not without the benefit of thousands of years living with us ... but dogs are, after all, animals...

Dogs respond to speech and behaviors very well. Humans are exceedingly predictable about emotions for pets.

Anyone who says OTHER animals don't have intelligence is a bigot lacking intelligence.

Anyone who says OTHER animals don't have intelligence is a bigot lacking intelligence.
What's that supposed to mean. >.>?

Dogs respond to speech and behaviors very well. Humans are exceedingly predictable about emotions for pets.

when the Ex yells at me, Molly runs into the bathroom and hides behind the toilet. lol

They observe you doing it yourself. Apes are smarter and realize if they do this and this they can get that.
Actually apes are smarter than even that. When showed how to open a box with a hidden mechanism and using some steps that didn't help to open the box, they repeated the whole series of steps. But when the mechanism was showing, they only used those steps necessary to open the box. That means they're not simply repeating, but thinking about what they're doing.

How did human children score? Oh, they repeated the entire series regardless.

Simonist']Still smarter than the average fish :p
Fish:
"oh, boy, this place is huge! let's see how far I can swim!"
"oooh, look! a castle!"
...
"oooh, look! a castle!"
...
"oooh, look! a castle!"
...
"oooh, look! a castle!"
...

Actually apes are smarter than even that. When showed how to open a box with a hidden mechanism and using some steps that didn't help to open the box, they repeated the whole series of steps. But when the mechanism was showing, they only used those steps necessary to open the box. That means they're not simply repeating, but thinking about what they're doing.

How did human children score? Oh, they repeated the entire series regardless.

Were the apes children too? Cos if it was adult apes against human children it's a bit skewed.

humans clearly follow intelligence, im sure that the neanderthals followed intelligence as well, how far back would we have to go before we consider out ancestors animals in which case would we suddenly have to assume that they no longer used intelligence,
it is stupid to assume animals have no intelligence, they clearly do, playing is not an instinctal thing to do it is to do with intelligence, yet lions, dogs etc. do it

Fish:
"oh, boy, this place is huge! let's see how far I can swim!"
"oooh, look! a castle!"
...
"oooh, look! a castle!"
...
"oooh, look! a castle!"
...
"oooh, look! a castle!"
...

roflmao a 3 min short term memory does that to you

Were the apes children too? Cos if it was adult apes against human children it's a bit skewed.

That wouldn't matter for the "animals can think" argument though.

I was testing my cats intelligence when it was just about a month old, by placing something it wanted in harder and harder to reach places. She actually figured out very quickly the path she needed to take to get to the thing she wanted each time.

She also was very quick to figure out certain words I would use and what they meant, like "eat" or "food", "go outside", "brush" (she loves to be brushed) and other stuff. She listened to me when I asked her to sharpen her nails only on her cat tree, which I thought was pretty cool.

I'm often impressed with how she figures out how to communicate to me what she wants. I know when she is hungry, or wants to go out or get brushed. She loves to drink waer from any sink faucet for some reason and will request a drink sometimes.

Now if I could only get her to use the toilet and flush it.

Oh and my albino rat was smart as well. He would come to me when I called his name, play fetch with me and knew what certain words meant as well. He would always sit on my shoulder or climb down into my jacket pocket to sleep where ever I took him.

Were the apes children too? Cos if it was adult apes against human children it's a bit skewed.
I can only find the abstract which says the chimps were young and born in the wild. The children were 3 - 4 yeards old.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15549502&query_hl=6

That wouldn't matter for the "animals can think" argument though.

Not really, but it would explain simply why the human children didn't perform as well as the ape. Though the apes seem to have been children too. So I guess 'The Planet of the Apes' is inevitable. I for one welcome our hairy overlords.

That value of lives BS...is just that. BS.
Humans are compassionate and caring, but when wronged they are the first to lead to selfishness.

Just like a chimp.

A male called Goliath once took care of two care of two young chimps when their mother died. Why would he do that especially when he never mated with the female?

Chimps are also very selfish in matters. One was observed to have found a nice tasty fig tree. He stuffed himself before letting the others know about it.

Just like a chimp.

A male called Goliath once took care of two care of two young chimps when their mother died. Why would he do that especially when he never mated with the female?

Chimps are also very selfish in matters. One was observed to have found a nice tasty fig tree. He stuffed himself before letting the others know about it.

That only says more of mine......>.> which was implied.

Well, since the thread in which we were talking about this has been closed, I will now start a thread about whether or not animals have intelligence. Quite a few people in that last thread said that animals (besides humans), have no intelligence, only instinct. I say that all animals have balanced levels of intelligence and instinct, just like humans. What do you say?

Instinct. They're biological Deep Blues - long chains of if-then instructions telling them to feed, fight, fly, and fuck. Humans, chimps, octopi and squid, and perhaps dolphins are the only animals with an advanced, self-modifying, self-referential theory of mind, a.k.a. intelligence.

I would consider instinct a kind of intelligence, I'm not really sure what else one might classify it as.

As for the degree of 'non-instinct' intelligence in non-human animals, that varies between and within species. I'm not aware of any objective criteria that draws a qualitative boundary between the intelligence that characterises humans and the intelligence that characterises non-humans.