NationStates Jolt Archive


Will Iraq plunge into civil war? Will it spread throughout the Middle East?

PsychoticDan
14-04-2006, 17:01
This 35 year veteran of Middle East politics remembers the lessons of Lebanon.


Down a dangerous road (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-hirst14apr14,0,6299875.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions)
Like Lebanon in the '70s, Iraq may be descending into civil war. Worse, it threatens to take the region with it.
By David Hirst, DAVID HIRST, the Guardian's Middle East correspondent from 1963 to 1997, lives in Beirut. He is the author of "The Gun and the Olive Branch: The Roots of Violence in the Middle East."
April 14, 2006


IS IT REALLY CIVIL WAR in Iraq? Donald Rumsfeld, secretary of Defense, says not. The U.S. ambassador to Iraq, Zalmay Khalilzad, concedes that "the potential is there." But former Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi is categoric: "If 60 dead a day isn't civil war, God knows what is."

Civil wars are rarely "declared"; they steal up. Not surprisingly, this was the same question that foreign correspondents — myself included — kept asking when, in 1975, intercommunal clashes began erupting in Lebanon. From sporadic, isolated beginnings, they steadily grew in scale and intensity, ever closer to the heart of the capital, Beirut.

Yet, for many months, most of us held back from concluding the worst, convinced that in the cosmopolitan, pluralistic, Levantine city we knew, this must all be an aberration and that somehow, before long, the growing madness would go into reverse.

We now know how naively optimistic we were. And perhaps, in light of it, someone like myself now inclines to an excess of pessimism when I contemplate what is happening in Iraq today: the steady rise of what in Lebanon used to be called "identity card killings"; the "flying roadblocks" improvised by militiamen across the city where, typically, these sectarian atrocities most randomly occurred; the prevalence of inter-communal slaughter in the poorer, newly developed, religiously mixed suburbs encircling the capital; the complicity of soldiers from the national, multi-sectarian army in the activities of sectarian militias.

In Iraq, not only are these things now taking place on at least the same scale, proportionally, as they did in Lebanon, and with even greater barbarity, but there are already other things — like the bombing of holy places — that rarely happened even in Lebanon's darkest days.

Ever since the U.S. invasion, Arab commentators, alarmed at where Iraq is headed, have searched for parallels — in Vietnam, Somalia, Algeria, Cyprus, the Balkans — but their favorite by far is Lebanon. And when they forecast the "Lebanonization" of Iraq, they also, as an almost automatic corollary, consider its implications for the entire Arab world. For it is all but axiomatic: Fire in one Arab country is liable to spread elsewhere.

In the end, the Lebanese fire didn't spread; it was contained, instead, and ultimately extinguished by the Arab League with help from the rest of the world.

But will we be so lucky again, in the case of so weighty and pivotal a country as Iraq?

"Iraq," wrote Ghassan Charbel in the pan-Arab newspaper Al Hayat, "resides in the Arabs' very conscience and in their calculations for the future. Its very veins are interlinked with the Arabs'. Its pains and hopes cross borders on the map. Many factors prevent Iraq from being able to commit suicide on its own."

Lebanon didn't spread, in part, because it was not a typical Arab state. In its main axis, the Lebanese civil war was fought between traditionally militant Maronite Christians and other sects in turn — Sunnis, Druzes, Shiites. But there are so few Christians (and hardly any Maronites) in the Arab world at large that it was never going to trigger a similar confrontation there.

By contrast, both in its ruling system and the identity of the protagonists, Iraq is — or was — far more representative of the wider Arab world. Saddam Hussein was the very model of the Arab tyrant, with sectarianism, in the shape of Sunni domination, as his chief instrument. At bloody loggerheads with itself, Iraq would become the model of Arab anarchy, embodying the two most disruptive, retrogressive yet popularly mobilizing forces in the Middle East today — sectarianism and ideologically driven Islamism.

It is now becoming a commonplace of Arab discourse that Iraq's agony is likely, ultimately, to equal in scale the post-World War I Middle East settlement that was the last great upheaval of its kind. Shaped chiefly by the Sykes-Picot agreement — the secret Anglo-French understanding of 1916 about how to divide territory between the colonial powers — the postwar settlement drew arbitrary, colonial-style frontiers across the more natural ethnic, sectarian, tribal and commercial lines that preceded it.

For some in the region at least, the new upheaval will "correct" what went wrong then.

How, then, will the fire spread? Syria — once the contentious nub of Sykes-Picot and the closest in recent historical experience to Iraq — will be most severely at risk. For, alone among Iraq's neighbors, it is exposed to both the ethnic and sectarian dimensions of the Iraqi contagion.

Syrian Kurds sense a weakness in their own, deeply troubled Baathist regime similar to that which ended in the downfall of its Iraq counterpart. If it finally does collapse amid general chaos, many will push for secession and amalgamation with their brethren in northern Iraq.

Syria has very few Shiites. But if sectarian identity is now to become the organizing principle of Arab polities, then Syria is vulnerable: A small religious minority, the Alawites, have effectively run it for more than 40 years. In a predominantly Sunni society, that Alawite rule historically represents an even greater anomaly than was Sunni minority rule in Iraq.

A Sunni majority restoration in Syria would become especially unstoppable if Iraq's increasingly disempowered Sunnis turn to Syria — where, but for Sykes-Picot, a great many would long have been citizens anyway.

The next most vulnerable region is the Persian Gulf, where Shiite minorities (or majorities, as in Bahrain), have long been discriminated against in varying degrees by Sunni establishments. Already excited by the dramatic emancipation of their co-religionists in Iraq, civil war there would only encourage Gulf Shiites to press their claims with greater vigor.

Nor is Jordan, with neither Kurdish nor Shiite minorities, any less alarmed. Jordan's King Abdullah was the first Arab leader to make public reference to an Iranian-sponsored "Shiite crescent," in effect labeling Shiites everywhere as a kind of "fifth column" challenging the traditional Sunni dominance of the Arab world.

Jordanian politicians even speak of building a "Sunni wall" through Iraq to contain the peril from the east. Because it is so small a country, because its loyalty to the U.S. and the peace treaty with Israel are so unpopular, and because its relatively benign autocracy depends on discrimination of a kind — favoring a conservative, tribal-minded Transjordanian minority over the more advanced and dynamic Palestinian majority — Jordan is peculiarly sensitive to political upheavals in its neighbors.

The "Lebanonization" of the Arab world would, of course, be most appalling for the inhabitants of that region themselves. But it would be pretty bad too for the U.S., which, with its invasion, precipitated it, and for its regional protege, Israel, which urged it on. Who knows what might arise out of the ruins of their grandiose ambitions to "reshape" the entire region in their favor?
Free Farmers
14-04-2006, 17:13
It's not looking good for anyone that has been influenced by this mess called Iraq. As stated in the article the problem is that the idiots in Europe drew the borders of these nations with no thoughts about ethnic clashes, religious differences, and ancient enemies. I think that the best way for us to stabilize Iraq would be to split it into three new nations, or at least semi-autonomous regions. One for each major ethnic group to control. Of course, I don't believe for a second that the goal of the Bush regime is to stabilize Iraq and make it better for the people; so it's pretty much just my thoughts on what we should do, not something that might actually happen.
Marrakech II
14-04-2006, 17:16
Well I would gather that Syria and Iran have seriously thought through the consequences of aiding an insurgency. I am sure they have contingency plans for sealing the borders so there involvement doesn't come back to bite em. So maybe it won't spread. As far as the Iraqi people.. I believe that they will pull it together just fine in the long run. Alot of hurdles to pass over but I think they can do it with support from US and EU.
PsychoticDan
14-04-2006, 18:36
Well I would gather that Syria and Iran have seriously thought through the consequences of aiding an insurgency. I am sure they have contingency plans for sealing the borders so there involvement doesn't come back to bite em. So maybe it won't spread. As far as the Iraqi people.. I believe that they will pull it together just fine in the long run. Alot of hurdles to pass over but I think they can do it with support from US and EU.
That's not the point. The problem is wether a civil war in Iraq will inspire ethnic minorities in surrounding countries to start a war of their own.
Ultraextreme Sanity
14-04-2006, 18:44
When and if the leaders and the people who make up IRAQ decide to have a civil war ..thats wgen it will happen . DESPITE what all the experts and talking dickheads have to say .

So far no civil war....the Iraqis seem to be smarter and have a lot more courage than anyone gives them credit for . I'm starting to like them .
Begoned
14-04-2006, 19:13
That's not the point. The problem is wether a civil war in Iraq will inspire ethnic minorities in surrounding countries to start a war of their own.

Not if the US and other countries send more troops into Iraq to quell the unrest instead of pulling them out.
Asbena
14-04-2006, 19:18
When and if the leaders and the people who make up IRAQ decide to have a civil war ..thats wgen it will happen . DESPITE what all the experts and talking dickheads have to say .

So far no civil war....the Iraqis seem to be smarter and have a lot more courage than anyone gives them credit for . I'm starting to like them .

Agreed, they don't want us there, but they know we HAVE to be there for the time being to ensure it doesn't fall apart. Americans want us out NOW, but they have no idea what we would cause to the whole region if we just up and left.

MANY MANY Americans are so stupid I want to slap them in the face and tell them how selfish and wrong they are. We got into this damn war ourselves and its our job to make it right and come out of this with a successful and clean system that will fix the things we started 30 years ago.

America is largely responsible for our problems in the middle east now! Time to fix it!
PsychoticDan
14-04-2006, 19:20
Not if the US and other countries send more troops into Iraq to quell the unrest instead of pulling them out.
Thanks you, but try telling that to Rumsfeld and Bush. that was the first, biggest mistake the stupid goon made.
PsychoticDan
14-04-2006, 19:22
When and if the leaders and the people who make up IRAQ decide to have a civil war ..thats wgen it will happen . DESPITE what all the experts and talking dickheads have to say .

So far no civil war....the Iraqis seem to be smarter and have a lot more courage than anyone gives them credit for . I'm starting to like them .
So you expect them to just come out and say, "Okay, we're gonna have a civil war now."

But former Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi is categoric: "If 60 dead a day isn't civil war, God knows what is."

Civil wars are rarely "declared"; they steal up.
RomeW
14-04-2006, 19:33
Iraq as a country is an enigma- ethinically divided, but somehow interwoven. I highly doubt it's going to split into three separate states for the following reason- geography. The Kurds are practically enemies with each of their neighbours- neighbours they need to work with because Kurdistan is landlocked- and thus need Iraq for access to the sea. The Shi'is could presumably join forces with Iran, but Saddam Hussein was highly successful in keeping Iraqi Shi'is in line in the Iran-Iraq War that this is highly doubtful. The Sunni centre could presumably join with Saudi Arabia, but relations between Iraq and Saudi Arabia are not on admirable terms, plus the Sunni centre is devoid of resources. It does, however, have the infrastructure needed to process the resources from the Kurdish north and Shi'ite south. So, while it looks like Iraq may be on the verge of a breakup, it simply won't.
Yootopia
14-04-2006, 19:36
It's already in a state of civil war. Or have you been taking a blind eye to the news of the various sects/peoples of Iraq blowing each other up?
PsychoticDan
14-04-2006, 19:37
Iraq as a country is an enigma- ethinically divided, but somehow interwoven. I highly doubt it's going to split into three separate states for the following reason- geography. The Kurds are practically enemies with each of their neighbours- neighbours they need to work with because Kurdistan is landlocked- and thus need Iraq for access to the sea. The Shi'is could presumably join forces with Iran, but Saddam Hussein was highly successful in keeping Iraqi Shi'is in line in the Iran-Iraq War that this is highly doubtful. The Sunni centre could presumably join with Saudi Arabia, but relations between Iraq and Saudi Arabia are not on admirable terms, plus the Sunni centre is devoid of resources. It does, however, have the infrastructure needed to process the resources from the Kurdish north and Shi'ite south. So, while it looks like Iraq may be on the verge of a breakup, it simply won't.
Strange, though, that people often make very bad choices for themeselves, no? Just because it makes sense not to break apart doesn't mean it won't. It certainly is hard right now to see any big moves towards cooperation.
RomeW
14-04-2006, 19:37
It's already in a state of civil war. Or have you been taking a blind eye to the news of the various sects/peoples of Iraq blowing each other up?

I'm not denying that there isn't tensions- there are- I'm denying the fact that it'll split up. A new order will rise out of the chaos, and it'll still be with a united Iraq.
RomeW
14-04-2006, 19:39
Strange, though, that people often make very bad choices for themeselves, no? Just because it makes sense not to break apart doesn't mean it won't. It certainly is hard right now to see any big moves towards cooperation.

The country could very well split apart, but it just won't be viable- unless the Kurds, Sunnis and Shi'ites (and their neighbours) all make amends (in which case, why split apart?).
PsychoticDan
14-04-2006, 19:43
The country could very well split apart, but it just won't be viable- unless the Kurds, Sunnis and Shi'ites (and their neighbours) all make amends (in which case, why split apart?).
I don't thank anyone disagrees that splitting apart would be bad for all Iraqis - especially because it will almost certainly be followed by a hell of a lot of bloodshed and economic turmoil, but again that doesn't mean it won't happen. The larger question here, though, is will it inspire ethnic groups in Saudi Arabia to revolt? Syria? Jordan?
Yootopia
14-04-2006, 19:48
I'm not denying that there isn't tensions- there are- I'm denying the fact that it'll split up. A new order will rise out of the chaos, and it'll still be with a united Iraq.

England didn't split up and we had quite a bloody civil war.
Lacadaemon
14-04-2006, 19:53
England didn't split up and we had quite a bloody civil war.

Quite a few of them.

Things were different back then however. Most of the population believed it had to STFU, and just accept whoever won.
Grand Maritoll
14-04-2006, 19:54
I'm feeling rather shallow and pedantic today, so I'll say, no, a civil war in Iraq will not and cannot spread to other countries.

Civil war- A war between factions or regions of the same country.

;)
PsychoticDan
14-04-2006, 19:56
I'm feeling rather shallow and pedantic today, so I'll say, no, a civil war in Iraq will not and cannot spread to other countries.

Civil war- A war between factions or regions of the same country.

;)
But ethnic tensions in Iraq can inspre ethnic tensions in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, wherever...
The UN abassadorship
14-04-2006, 20:00
I'm feeling rather shallow and pedantic today, so I'll say, no, a civil war in Iraq will not and cannot spread to other countries.

Civil war- A war between factions or regions of the same country.

;)
There is a strong possibility of regional conflict between sunni and shi'ia which may pit neighbour against neighbour across the middle east and other islamic countries, creating something of a civil war. Just think North Ireland but much bigger and much bloodier.
Grand Maritoll
14-04-2006, 20:02
True, but then it would be inspiring other civil wars, as opposed to spreading the Iraqi Civil War.
PsychoticDan
14-04-2006, 20:14
True, but then it would be inspiring other civil wars, as opposed to spreading the Iraqi Civil War.
Oh, Jeez! :mad:

Look at it like a cold. If a person gets a cold from another person that other person is said to have "spread" the cold.
RomeW
14-04-2006, 20:50
I don't thank anyone disagrees that splitting apart would be bad for all Iraqis - especially because it will almost certainly be followed by a hell of a lot of bloodshed and economic turmoil, but again that doesn't mean it won't happen. The larger question here, though, is will it inspire ethnic groups in Saudi Arabia to revolt? Syria? Jordan?

The only feasible thing I can forsee is Iran intervening on the side of the Shi'ites, since Iran has a long history of interfering in that regard. Iraq's historical relations with Saudi Arabia, Syria and Jordan is pretty cold, so I don't know if tensions will be spreading there.
Grand Maritoll
14-04-2006, 21:17
Oh, Jeez! :mad:

Look at it like a cold. If a person gets a cold from another person that other person is said to have "spread" the cold.

As I said, I was being pedantic.

You can spead a war, but you can't spread a civil war. You can spread a cold, but you can't spread your cold. As soon as someone else has it, it's their cold.
PsychoticDan
14-04-2006, 21:21
The only feasible thing I can forsee is Iran intervening on the side of the Shi'ites, since Iran has a long history of interfering in that regard. Iraq's historical relations with Saudi Arabia, Syria and Jordan is pretty cold, so I don't know if tensions will be spreading there.
It's not about Iraqi's spreading their tensions to SA, Syria or Jordan. It's about minorities in those countries taking a clue from what happens in Iraq and starting their own wars.
Syrian Kurds sense a weakness in their own, deeply troubled Baathist regime similar to that which ended in the downfall of its Iraq counterpart. If it finally does collapse amid general chaos, many will push for secession and amalgamation with their brethren in northern Iraq.

Syria has very few Shiites. But if sectarian identity is now to become the organizing principle of Arab polities, then Syria is vulnerable: A small religious minority, the Alawites, have effectively run it for more than 40 years. In a predominantly Sunni society, that Alawite rule historically represents an even greater anomaly than was Sunni minority rule in Iraq.

A Sunni majority restoration in Syria would become especially unstoppable if Iraq's increasingly disempowered Sunnis turn to Syria — where, but for Sykes-Picot, a great many would long have been citizens anyway.

The next most vulnerable region is the Persian Gulf, where Shiite minorities (or majorities, as in Bahrain), have long been discriminated against in varying degrees by Sunni establishments. Already excited by the dramatic emancipation of their co-religionists in Iraq, civil war there would only encourage Gulf Shiites to press their claims with greater vigor.

Nor is Jordan, with neither Kurdish nor Shiite minorities, any less alarmed. Jordan's King Abdullah was the first Arab leader to make public reference to an Iranian-sponsored "Shiite crescent," in effect labeling Shiites everywhere as a kind of "fifth column" challenging the traditional Sunni dominance of the Arab world.

Jordanian politicians even speak of building a "Sunni wall" through Iraq to contain the peril from the east. Because it is so small a country, because its loyalty to the U.S. and the peace treaty with Israel are so unpopular, and because its relatively benign autocracy depends on discrimination of a kind — favoring a conservative, tribal-minded Transjordanian minority over the more advanced and dynamic Palestinian majority — Jordan is peculiarly sensitive to political upheavals in its neighbors.
Free Sex and Beer
14-04-2006, 22:14
It's not about Iraqi's spreading their tensions to SA, Syria or Jordan. It's about minorities in those countries taking a clue from what happens in Iraq and starting their own wars.

it may happen it may not. Christian sects battled in Ireland but it didn't spread to England. Nationality has to be taken into account a shitte arab may not see things the same way as a shitte persian or pakistani. Different languages, cultures, ethic groups and political system all have to be considered.
Ravenshrike
14-04-2006, 22:57
In the end, the Lebanese fire didn't spread; it was contained, instead, and ultimately extinguished by the Arab League with help from the rest of the world.

Because giving Lebanon to Syria and Hizbollah is certainly containing the situation.:headbang:

advanced and dynamic Palestinian majority

Soooo, blowing yourself up and indiscriminately killing women and children, trashing advanced farming technology, electing a worldwide recognized terrorist organization as your primary government, and swarming cars is considered advanced and dynamic? Interesting.
PsychoticDan
14-04-2006, 23:18
Because giving Lebanon to Syria and Hizbollah is certainly containing the situation.:headbang:man, you really read what you want to, don't you? He was specifically pointing out that the greater Middle East did not erupt into war as a result of teh ethnic tensions in lebanon as many had feard. That's all.



Soooo, blowing yourself up and indiscriminately killing women and children, trashing advanced farming technology, electing a worldwide recognized terrorist organization as your primary government, and swarming cars is considered advanced and dynamic? Interesting.
He is talking about Palestinians living in Jordan, not Isreal and he said there were a lot of them and that they are very active and that they may decide to start a war in Jordan if they are inspired to by a civil war in Iraq. He was writing specifically to that point and that point alone.


You really should read the article in question before you comment. It makes you look like an ass when you don't.
Mariehamn
14-04-2006, 23:19
Is Iraq not already in an unofficial civil war?
Death squads on all sides of the conflict have existed for years now.
Ultraextreme Sanity
15-04-2006, 01:02
:rolleyes: So you expect them to just come out and say, "Okay, we're gonna have a civil war now."


ummm YES !!!! didnt you ever ...like study...ANY...history...at ...ALL ???:rolleyes:

See whhat happens is factions...look up what that means if yor confused ...decide to either take controll or succeed from the country they are in .

Now you see these " factions " have "LEADERS " ...leaders are the dudes ( or dudettes) who controll the factions in case you are confused...and these leaders ...see the American civil war ...and others ...usually state the goals and reasons for deciding that they want to SEPERATE themselves from the society they live in .....now take Lebenon ..for example ...look at its history ...WTF does it have to do with FUCKING IRAQ ? or the United STates ..or any fucking other civil friggin war ?...ummm little or nothing ...except it was in fact a civil war...ohhhh and its close ....and its ..got some Muslems and arabs and stuff ...that may at some time ....DECIDE for themselves...well they may want to just kill each other and make the place they live a hell on EARTH .....seems like they dont want to...are you rooting otherwise ?
Good Lifes
15-04-2006, 05:53
The problem is that for a government to stand it has to have the opposition loyal (even though it disagrees) at least to the point of nonviolence. Even a small minority can defeat and bring down a govenment. Less than 10% can't be defeated if they keep fighting. In past civil wars the opposition thought in terms of conventional warfare. So there was a chance ro defeat it on the ground. Nam taught the whole world how to fight a more powerful force either foreign or domestic. Death by a thousand cuts.

The only two solutions aren't war but giving the opposition a stake in the future they don't want to lose, or having a leader so strong that the opposition know they can lose everything. The US removed the strong man but as yet have not offered the opposition any stake in the future. The biggest problem is the people understand the word "democracy". They know it means total power to the majority and total subserviance by the minority. What stake could that possibly give the minority in the new order?

There is also a total misunderstanding of the culture of time. In the US a month is old news. A year is forever. In the middle east, a generation is yesterday and a hundred years is tomorrow. The Jews remembered 2000 years. The Palistinians have remembered 60 years and have not given an inch. How long will Iraq remember?

The obvious solution is to set up our own strong man. Until of course he gets thrown over by the people like happened to the Shah.
RomeW
18-04-2006, 01:37
It's not about Iraqi's spreading their tensions to SA, Syria or Jordan. It's about minorities in those countries taking a clue from what happens in Iraq and starting their own wars.

I don't know if that'll happen either- Iraqis are the most fervent of peoples in the Middle East, besides Iran of course. If it were to happen, then it'd be spread from Iraq, and I don't believe that'll happen. The Iranian Revolution didn't exactly spread either.