NationStates Jolt Archive

What follows is one of the most shocking articles I have ever read. It is not gory, violent, or otherwise distasteful. It is simply revealing of some of the worst in people.

part 1:
http://education.guardian.co.uk/classroomviolence/story/0,12388,987932,00.html

and part 2:
http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,5500,987933,00.html

....

When most children first arrive they find it difficult to believe that they have no alternative but to submit. In shock, frightened and angry, many simply refuse to obey. This is when they discover the alternative. Guards take them (if necessary by force) to a small bare room and make them (again by force if necessary) lie flat on their face, arms by their sides, on the tiled floor. Watched by a guard, they must remain lying face down, forbidden to speak or move a muscle except for 10 minutes every hour, when they may sit up and stretch before resuming the position. Modest meals are brought to them, and at night they sleep on the floor of the corridor outside under electric light and the gaze of a guard. At dawn they resume the position.

This is known officially as being 'in OP' - Observation Placement - and more casually as 'lying on your face'. Any level student can be sent to OP, and it automatically demotes them to level 1 and zero points. Every 24 hours, students in OP are reviewed by staff, and only sincere and unconditional contrition will earn their release. If they are unrepentant? 'Well, they get another 24 hours.'

One boy told me he'd spent six months in OP.

I didn't think this could be true, but it transpired this was not even exceptional. 'Oh no,' says Kay. 'The record is actually held by a female.' On and off, she spent 18 months lying on her face.

Wow.

What follows is one of the most shocking articles I have ever read. It is not gory, violent, or otherwise distasteful. It is simply revealing of some of the worst in people.

part 1:
http://education.guardian.co.uk/classroomviolence/story/0,12388,987932,00.html

and part 2:
http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,5500,987933,00.html

That is truly shocking.

Sick.

Do they get to go to the bathroom?

Getting nabbed by police and sent to a far away prison simply for exposing cleavage?! :mad:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/6/30/44110/2720

"Youth Rebel in Costa Rica, Overthrow Gulag School

The harshest institutions of youth oppression got a violent taste of youth power this week as the school's "students rose up in revolt and overthrew their masters." The Costa Rican school, Dundee Ranch, subjects American teens to a gauntlet of abuse and oppression to break their will and "reform" them. Students have no privacy, can't communicate and punishments ranging from physical beatings to solitary confinement for any who break the 100-plus rules. After complaints of abuse, Costa Rican authorities visited the school. "They told us you have the right to speak, you have the right to speak to your parents, you have the right to leave if you feel you've been mistreated," said Hugh Maxwell, 17, of Rhode Island. "Kids heard that and they started running for the door. There was elation, cheering and clapping and chaos." Dundee Ranch employees beat the students to get them to stop, but many escaped and many fought back. Some students armed themselves with sticks to take their frustrations out against their captors. 35 students escaped Dundee Ranch, choosing to try their fate in the countryside rather than stay. One student said, "staff members started kicking, hitting and choking children to stop them from leaving, and that the punishment continued for hours after the Costa Rican officials left." Casa Alianza International has asked the United Nations Committee Against Torture in Geneva to initiate an investigation into the school."

There is very little that any opponent of Tranquility can do to prevent it continuing to do business.
I know what they can do: Charter themselves a boat, get a bunch of assault rifles and shoot those psychopaths who run that place. And the parents too.

http://www.teenpaths.org/tranquility_bay/images/tb_facility1.jpeg
Tranquility Bay (Jamaica) is a residential treatment facility for girls and boys ages 13-18 yrs. who are struggling in their home, school, or community. Unlike, the other schools in this program with the exception of Cross Creek, Tranquility Bay students undergo regular individualized therapeutic counseling from licensed therapists on staff at Tranquility Bay as normal program protocol. Most of our other schools outsource this as an additional cost option at parents' disgression. Additionally, Tranquility Bay is the school most suited for teens exhibiting violent and/or agressive behavior because they have a lot of experience in confronting and re-directing such aggression.

Its remote location and humble, modest environment inpired by the Jamaican culture helps minimize inappropriate distractions, but is still only a short flight from the United States. Additionally, the view of the bay from campus is quite breathtaking and seems to have a calming effect on the students

http://www.teenpaths.org/schools.htm

I would like to know how the kids can see out the windows..

I hope every last moronic psycho that runs that place, and the parents, are shot soon.

I know what they can do: Charter themselves a boat, get a bunch of assault rifles and shoot those psychopaths who run that place. And the parents too.

I'd donate to the cause.

kids need discipline, but they dont need this:headbang:

I'd donate to the cause.

As would I.

kids need discipline, but they dont need this:headbang:

Exactly.

I was shocked to see this on TV this morning.

I was shocked to see this on TV this morning.

Advertisement or news report?

I blame shit eating baby boomers.

Emotionally crippled, mentally defective fucktards the lot of them.

Still, look on the bright side: one day these selfsame kids will get to make decisions about which care facilities their geriatric parents go to. So, behave mom and pop, or you might have to go to the Jamaican hospital for 'troubled' seniors until you learn better..

http://alternet.org/story/31000/
http://www.bulletinboards.com/v1.cfm?comcode=Titsch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tranquility_Bay
http://www.isaccorp.org/wwasps/wwasps.03.html
http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2620
http://www.orwelltoday.com/tranquility.shtml

That is seriously fucked up! What got me was when the kids are criticized for saying personal stuff about themselves. Also, the lack of qualafications that these psychos have! They aren't helping these kids..they're brain washing them. I can understand about sending your kid away if they killed someone, or raped someone or something..but come on! For sleeping around? doing drugs? I don't like people that do drugs, but that's what rehab and other centers are for.
That's a bunch of sick mother fuckers..
I could just go on and on about this..
P.S. I donate to the cause..I'll buy the guns!

I blame shit eating baby boomers.

Emotionally crippled, mentally defective fucktards the lot of them.

Still, look on the bright side: one day these selfsame kids will get to make decisions about which care facilities their geriatric parents go to. So, behave mom and pop, or you might have to go to the Jamaican hospital for 'troubled' seniors until you learn better..

Charmingly cynical, but sadly true.

Is it extreme?
Yes.

But it seems to work.

I don't have a problem with this sort of program, as long as it's used appropriately. What I don't like is that it's apparently up to the parents sole discretion whether or not their kids are a big enough problem to send there.
If a kid has drug problems and chronically disobeys reasonable rules and requests, ship him/her off.

If a kid has drug problems and chronically disobeys reasonable rules and requests, ship him/her off.
Remind me to make abortion compulsory for people who talk like you.

Advertisement or news report?

News.

Personally I think having demon-spawn for children is just deserts for the morons who had them. And Hey, if drugging your children doesn't work, electrocutoin does.

I don't have a problem with this sort of program, as long as it's used appropriately. What I don't like is that it's apparently up to the parents sole discretion whether or not their kids are a big enough problem to send there.
If a kid has drug problems and chronically disobeys reasonable rules and requests, ship him/her off.

You have no problem with a facility that had a teenage girl to lie face down for eighteen months? Because if you tried that in America, you'd have your child taken off you.

Is it extreme?
Yes.

But it seems to work.

I don't have a problem with this sort of program, as long as it's used appropriately. What I don't like is that it's apparently up to the parents sole discretion whether or not their kids are a big enough problem to send there.
If a kid has drug problems and chronically disobeys reasonable rules and requests, ship him/her off.

How is the treatment described (a girl lying in OP for 18 months) ever "used appropriately"?

What evidence do you have that this kind of torture works?

How about trying drug rehab (or -- heaven forbid -- parenting) instead?

http://alternet.org/story/31000/
http://www.bulletinboards.com/v1.cfm?comcode=Titsch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tranquility_Bay
http://www.isaccorp.org/wwasps/wwasps.03.html
http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2620
http://www.orwelltoday.com/tranquility.shtml

Reading the Wikipedia entry has me a lot more dubious of the place and their methods. I'd have to see it for myself to know for sure, though. It could well be that the kids were exagerrating.

Remind me to make abortion compulsory for people who talk like you.

I don't intend to get pregnant. :)

You have no problem with a facility that had a teenage girl to lie face down for eighteen months?

Depending on the reasons, no.

Because if you tried that in America, you'd have your child taken off you.

It's not in America.

Reading the Wikipedia entry has me a lot more dubious of the place and their methods. I'd have to see it for myself to know for sure, though. It could well be that the kids were exagerrating.

that is possible, especially with teenagers. far to common for me to hear someone tell a teenager to stop doing something and then to hear the teenager talk about it later saying they were yelling at them.

that is possible, especially with teenagers. far to common for me to hear someone tell a teenager to stop doing something and then to hear the teenager talk about it later saying they were yelling at them.

Still, this is a bit extreme.

How is the treatment described (a girl lying in OP for 18 months) ever "used appropriately"?

Sometimes it can take that long to break the will of a stubborn person, and some people cannot be helped unless their will is broken first, then they are rebuilt.

What evidence do you have that this kind of torture works?

Didn't you read the article?

How about trying drug rehab (or -- heaven forbid -- parenting) instead?

Of course, but believe it or not those methods are NOT 100% successful.
:rolleyes:

Parenting is exponentially more successful with 'tough love'.

Is it extreme?
Yes.

But it seems to work.

I don't have a problem with this sort of program, as long as it's used appropriately. What I don't like is that it's apparently up to the parents sole discretion whether or not their kids are a big enough problem to send there.
If a kid has drug problems and chronically disobeys reasonable rules and requests, ship him/her off.

I'll bet dollars to donuts that the problems with most of these kids stem not from 'drugs' or 'chronic disobedience', but rather their dysfunctional, emotionally arrested, narcistic, self obsessed, worthless sack of shit parents.

After all, what kind of a fucktard washes their hands this way and ships their kid off to a camp the violates the terms of the Geneva convention, because they 'dress inappropriately' &c.

Social services should remove them from their families. Their parents clearly aren't fit to raise children.

These people are messed up..and, whoever said that it's not in America;you're right. That's how these pricks get away with it.
The bastard JK has no business, "teaching," kids!
They aren't helped; they're brain washed.
They're programmed, they most likely don't even know how to act when they are released.

Parenting is exponentially more successful with 'tough love'.

Tough love != Beating your kids.

I totally agree with Lacadaemon!

Is it extreme?
Yes.

But it seems to work.

I don't have a problem with this sort of program, as long as it's used appropriately. What I don't like is that it's apparently up to the parents sole discretion whether or not their kids are a big enough problem to send there.
If a kid has drug problems and chronically disobeys reasonable rules and requests, ship him/her off.


Do your children a favor. Don't have any.

Do your children a favor. Don't have any.

I'll have to agree here, unfortunately.

This is not discipline. It is demoralization and a complete lack of respect for ones dignity. This does not teach children, it destroys them.

What follows is one of the most shocking articles I have ever read. It is not gory, violent, or otherwise distasteful. It is simply revealing of some of the worst in people.
That's almost classic brainwashing. I can understand a parent being concerned about their child being out of control, but I will never understand why any parent would send their child to a place like that.

Almost always in cases like the ones mentioned, the parents are the ones bearing the majority of any blame. Self-centered, self-absorbed, self, self, self type personalities, usually babyboomers, they have decided that their happiness ( however they choose to define it ) is more important than spending time with their child. Then, when the child rebells because he or she feels neglected or unwanted or just alone, the parents send them to places like this. It's medieval. :(

Hell. We should send the damned parents there! :mad:

I just thought of something:
I think that these, "special," programs are made to look good for the parents, then once they get the parent's money the special programs do whatever they like with there kid.
It's all about the money;

Didn't you read the article?

Did you? Where did it give evidence of Tranquility Bay's success rate?

Where is the science that shows torturing children makes them "better"?

Did you? Where did it give evidence of Tranquility Bay's success rate?

Where is the science that shows torturing children makes them "better"?
Yo! Cat-Tribe! S'up? :)

We seem to be on the same side on this one! [ faints ] :D

I teach in a rough school with some kids who wouldn't follow directions if their lives depended on it (And I mean that literally).

But none of them deserve something like that.

Sometimes I really think we need to start requireing permits to breed.

Yo! Cat-Tribe! S'up? :)

We seem to be on the same side on this one! [ faints ] :D

We definitely are. Its hard to believe anyone is on the other side.

I teach in a rough school with some kids who wouldn't follow directions if their lives depended on it (And I mean that literally).

But none of them deserve something like that.

Sometimes I really think we need to start requireing permits to breed.

Actually, in Pythogria, I enforce that. It would benifit the world.

Yo! Cat-Tribe! S'up? :)

We seem to be on the same side on this one! [ faints ] :D

I'm fairly sure this sort of thing cuts across party lines, if you know what I mean.

Where is the science that shows torturing children makes them "better"?


Hey, my parents beat the crap out of me when I was a kid, and look where I am now. In intensive long-term therapy for clinical depression and PTSD, on heavy medication, periodically suicidal. Yep, physical torture worked wonders on me.

Sometimes it can take that long to break the will of a stubborn person, and some people cannot be helped unless their will is broken first, then they are rebuilt.
Classic brainwashing.

So in order to "save" the child, you break their will? Sounds like one is just as bad as the other.

Actually, most brainwashing doesn't hold for very long. When the one brainwashed is re-introduced into society, they once again begin to think for themselves and often turn against those who inflicted the brainwashing on them ... read: parents. The parents ultimately lose what they thought they were seeking most: a relationship with their child.

The whole thing just sucks! :mad:

Hell. We should send the damned parents there! :mad:
Oh no, THAT would be kidnapping and abuse!

Restrain someone who wants to go? It's only legal if it's a child. *sighs*

Hey, my parents beat the crap out of me when I was a kid, and look where I am now. In intensive long-term therapy for clinical depression and PTSD, on heavy medication, periodically suicidal. Yep, physical torture worked wonders on me.

Well, that was a good rebuttal.

Really, in VERY, and I do mean VERY small amounts, a beating helps. But too much and it is harmful.

Sometimes I really think we need to start requireing permits to breed.

I'm not necessarily against that sort of thing. The problem is how do you decide who gets them.

And no doubt if you gave some kind of test, within three months there would be a Kaplan course, helping the otherwise unqualified slip through the net.

I'm not necessarily against that sort of thing. The problem is how do you decide who gets them.

And no doubt if you gave some kind of test, within three months there would be a Kaplan course, helping the otherwise unqualified slip through the net.
Unfortuately, you're right. It sounds like such a good idea, but the logistics of it...

Oh well.

I'm fairly sure this sort of thing cuts across party lines, if you know what I mean.
Heh! I'll refain from hijacking the thread. :p

I do understand though. These are the future of the world we are talking about. So we brainwash them and make them, usually and almost always temporarily, docile. But when they grow out of it, what then?

It simply doesn't work. Never has. Never will.

Oh no, THAT would be kidnapping and abuse!

Restrain someone who wants to go? It's only legal if it's a child. *sighs*
[ shudders ] :( :mad:

Do your children a favor. Don't have any.

I don't plan to.

I read that parents are sometimes denied access to their child. Wouldn't a lawsuit get them out?

And I wonder what happens if the kid is a 220 pound blackbelt or something. Or masochistic.

Well, that was a good rebuttal.

Really, in VERY, and I do mean VERY small amounts, a beating helps. But too much and it is harmful.


I have to disagree there. I don't have kids, but if I ever do, I can honestly say that I'd sooner cut off my arm than raise my hand to them. I could never put a child through what I endured.

Parenting is exponentially more successful with 'tough love'.
True, for most children, but this isn't "tough love." This is just glorified brainwashing, which often causes more harm than it solves. :(

I have to disagree there. I don't have kids, but if I ever do, I can honestly say that I'd sooner cut off my arm than raise my hand to them. I could never put a child through what I endured.

Well, what you endured was terrible, and that should never happen. But a tiny bit (and I mean only for TERRIBLE things, and only maybe a little smack) can help.

Beating with a basball bat or something...

doesn't.

I read that parents are sometimes denied access to their child. Wouldn't a lawsuit get them out?
Possibly, under what jurisdiction is hard to say, but remember, they sent their child there in the first place.

And I wonder what happens if the kid is a 220 pound blackbelt or something. Or masochistic.
Enough people can take anyone down, no matter what size/skill level.

I just thought of something:
I think that these, "special," programs are made to look good for the parents, then once they get the parent's money the special programs do whatever they like with there kid.
It's all about the money;
Of course it is. Didn't you get the memo: The rich man makes the rules for the wise man and the fool. :(

I read that parents are sometimes denied access to their child. Wouldn't a lawsuit get them out?

It said that the parents were also given seminars, so it's likely that they just tell them "That would undermine the work to date and cost you another small fortune to fix again".


And I wonder what happens if the kid is a 220 pound blackbelt or something. Or masochistic.

Unless you want to really kill or maim someone, there are limits to what martial arts can achieve against crowds of people.

I teach in a rough school with some kids who wouldn't follow directions if their lives depended on it (And I mean that literally).

But none of them deserve something like that.

Sometimes I really think we need to start requireing permits to breed.
I have sometimes thought the same, but talk about a bucket of worms! Whew! It would make the abortion controversy look like a conclave of philosophers! :(

Did you? Where did it give evidence of Tranquility Bay's success rate?

No statistics, but it certainly sounds effective to me:
The students all describe their pre-programme selves using the same subjective descriptions, such as 'ignorant' or 'disrespectful', as if these were neutral adjectives, like 'brown'. Their delivery, too, is disturbingly similar, for the words come out like empty envelopes, emotionally vacant.

'When I was sent here I was very upset,' Kate tells me. Her voice is careful but dull. 'My parents didn't tell me I was coming here. They tricked me.' She smiles a faraway, inscrutable smile. 'I had to have the police escort me on to the plane.'

How do you feel about it now? 'I think it's great. The fact that I changed my life is great.' And what's your relationship like with them now? 'It's great.' What spark Kate and others have is lit only by Kay and the chaperones, towards whom a faintly flirtatious electricity seems to flicker. These children do not just obey rules. They seem to have been psychologically rewired.



Where is the science that shows torturing children makes them "better"?

The same could be asked of "Time Out" and other punishments that kids don't like.

True, for most children, but this isn't "tough love." This is just glorified brainwashing, which often causes more harm than it solves. :(

Yah. I've got to agree with that.

All the parents are doing with this is storing up a shit load of grief for the future. I imagine a lot of these kids will be damaged for good after this.

Sometimes I really think we need to start requireing permits to breed.

100% agreement.

100% agreement.
Dude. You need to get a grip! :(

The same could be asked of "Time Out" and other punishments that kids don't like.
There is a difference between sending your kid to bed without TV, and giving it post-traumatic stress disorder.

http://www.isaccorp.org/tranquilitybay.html

"According to reports, only 20% of all students 'graduate' from the program."

The same could be asked of "Time Out" and other punishments that kids don't like.

Can you comprehend the difference between a 'time out' and being made to lie face down on concrete day, after day, after day.

Still, I'm sure they'll get the trains running on time...........

Classic brainwashing.

So in order to "save" the child, you break their will? Sounds like one is just as bad as the other.

That's the most intelligent response to my post so far.

Actually, most brainwashing doesn't hold for very long. When the one brainwashed is re-introduced into society, they once again begin to think for themselves and often turn against those who inflicted the brainwashing on them ... read: parents. The parents ultimately lose what they thought they were seeking most: a relationship with their child.

You may well be right. Only time will see.

The whole thing just sucks! :mad:

I agree.

Of course it is. Didn't you get the memo: The rich man makes the rules for the wise man and the fool. :(

Must've missed that one..
I smell a cover-up!

I have sometimes thought the same, but talk about a bucket of worms! Whew! It would make the abortion controversy look like a conclave of philosophers! :(
And then some.

Of course it would also give NS General something to talk about for the next 20 or so years. It'd probably take the record for longest thread ever. ;)

*takes another angle*

So what's stoping these kids from acting like they learned their lesson and getting the fuck out of there? True.. the experience may turn some of them on.. but they could pay less for that at home. You would get more for your money anyways..

No statistics, but it certainly sounds effective to me:

You need to read that again. You should also read some of the other links that have been given.



The same could be asked of "Time Out" and other punishments that kids don't like.

Time Out for 18 months straight? Maybe.

We are talking physical and psychological abuse here. Treatment that would be illegal for a POW.

kids need discipline, but they dont need this:headbang:

This isn't discipline. This is kidnapping(these parents should have their children taken away to be given to actual parents), torture, and mind-control, Orwell style.

If I get the chance, I'll be the first one to storm this place and liberate the children. Nobody deserves this treatment, or at the very least nobody who "acts up".

This is crazy. Seriously. What kind of parent would send their child to somewhere like that. Stupid. If I was one of those kid's I'd like work up a plan to start a revolution and break the fuck out of that hell hole.

There is a difference between sending your kid to bed without TV, and giving it post-traumatic stress disorder.

:)
True, and well said.

But if years of sending the kid to bed, along with every other conventional method, results in failure?
What then?
Depending on how much of a problem the kid is, it might well merit consideration.

Time Out for 18 months straight? Maybe.

We are talking physical and psychological abuse here. Treatment that would be illegal for a POW.

Actually, it was "on and off". However, even if she were there for the full 7 years capable between 11-17, she spent almost 1/4 of it in "OP". This is behavior modification at its worst.

http://www.isaccorp.org/tranquilitybay.html

"According to reports, only 20% of all students 'graduate' from the program."

More bad news.
I'd consider this place to be a failed experiment, then.
Unless somehow 20% is better than the competition, which I doubt.

The really sad thing is these kids (most likely all of them) have depression or some form of it. They're basically being sent to hell for having depression, not getting along with a step parent, doing drugs which they could have gone to some kind of rehab for, sleeping around which they could go to a health clinic for to get protection..etc

http://www.isaccorp.org/tranquilitybay.html

"According to reports, only 20% of all students 'graduate' from the program."

I don't understand why none of the suvivors have sued, given the above link.

At the very least, you would expect that the company would have some assets in the US, and you could get in rem jurisdiction over them and shut them down.

:)
True, and well said.

But if years of sending the kid to bed, along with every other conventional method, results in failure?
What then?
Depending on how much of a problem the kid is, it might well merit consideration.

Seek professional help. Talk to psyciatrists. Maybe your kid has ADD or some other disorder. Don't send them to a prison with untrained and unskilled people don't know what they are doing, and don't know how to manage children(putting them face-down on the floor for 24 hours straight for an indefinate amount of time and not allowing them to move is not proper child management).

There is a difference between sending your kid to bed without TV, and giving it post-traumatic stress disorder.:)
True, and well said.

But if years of sending the kid to bed, along with every other conventional method, results in failure?
What then?
Depending on how much of a problem the kid is, it might well merit consideration.

Giving your child PTSD is a viable option?

Deliberately inflicting mental illness is simply child abuse.

Correction: tranquility bay is simply child abuse

Can you comprehend the difference between a 'time out' and being made to lie face down on concrete day, after day, after day.

Yup.
In one situation, you're lying on your face. And it lasts longer.

As for the "day after day", that depends on now long it takes until you quit resisting. I'm sure there are some kids who only have to go a single day.
(Although personally, I'd have the checks more like 3-4 times per day.)

Still, I'm sure they'll get the trains running on time...........

:)

I don't understand why none of the suvivors have sued, given the above link.

At the very least, you would expect that the company would have some assets in the US, and you could get in rem jurisdiction over them and shut them down.

Might be difficult given that they are in another country, and that their parents signed them off while they were still under gaurdianship. They're parents also signed waivers, so that this place wouldn't be held accountable for any injuries or such. Not sure how the legal system could work around that. Cat-Tribe, you're a lawyer, right(I think it was you at least)?

You need to read that again. You should also read some of the other links that have been given.

As I have already said, I read the Wikipedia entry and it put things in a much worse light. If Wiki is right, then the place should be shut down.

Time Out for 18 months straight? Maybe.

We are talking physical and psychological abuse here. Treatment that would be illegal for a POW.

Just because brainwashing POWs is bad does not mean that brainwashing does not have its place.

More bad news.
I'd consider this place to be a failed experiment, then.
Unless somehow 20% is better than the competition, which I doubt.

Except, of course, that the experiment isn't over yet. There are still kids there. Right now, as I type this. In fact, you can still apply to have your kids sent there. (http://www.tranquilitybay.org/)

Might be difficult given that they are in another country, and that their parents signed them off while they were still under gaurdianship. They're parents also signed waivers, so that this place wouldn't be held accountable for any injuries or such. Not sure how the legal system could work around that. Cat-Tribe, you're a lawyer, right(I think it was you at least)?

My impression is that because they are doing business in the US, they would be amenable to suit in a US court.

Also, I don't think just because your parents sign a waiver, that means you can't sue when you turn eighteen in this kind of situation.

Giving your child PTSD is a viable option?

Deliberately inflicting mental illness is simply child abuse.

Correction: tranquility bay is simply child abuse

Extreme times, extreme measures.
Cutting a child with a knife is child abuse too.
Unless it's during surgery, in an attempt to cure them.

http://www.isaccorp.org/tranquilitybay.html

"According to reports, only 20% of all students 'graduate' from the program."
Shit! I know at least three programs right here in NC that get above 30%! And they do it with kindness and love and professionals who actually know what they're doing. So this program not only harms the child and makes its owners rich, it doesn't even remotely live up to its claims of "very high rates of success!" Jeeze. :mad:

Depending on how much of a problem the kid is, it might well merit consideration.
My view was always that ultimately, you can't force a kid to like or interact with you.

So if I was ever in that situation, I'd call the kid into the living room and make this little speech:
"I consider you a rational human being. You can make your own choices.

All I ask is that you play by my rules while you live here. That's why I have written down this contract. It says what I demand of you, and what I will give you in return. That includes things like food and a place to live. Since I have worked and paid for this house, the rules I choose to make are my own. You have no right to criticise them. You can only accept them or not.

Should you break the rules, I will ask you to leave my house. Many people have left their parents early. Stay with a friend, stay at a YMCA, stay at a hostel. There too, you will have to comply with rules. Such is life.

It's your choice, and it will be you who makes it. Sign or leave."

Of course, my rules would be a little bit different to the sort of thing some of these parents seem to demand. I don't care whether my kids smoke dope, or who they have sex with.

The really sad thing is these kids (most likely all of them) have depression or some form of it. They're basically being sent to hell for having depression, not getting along with a step parent, doing drugs which they could have gone to some kind of rehab for, sleeping around which they could go to a health clinic for to get protection..etc
Sure sounds like that to me. :(

Might be difficult given that they are in another country, and that their parents signed them off while they were still under gaurdianship. They're parents also signed waivers, so that this place wouldn't be held accountable for any injuries or such. Not sure how the legal system could work around that. Cat-Tribe, you're a lawyer, right(I think it was you at least)?

Yep. Guilty as charged. I'm a lawyer.

My vague understanding is that there have been tons of lawsuits over the place (and other WWASP facilities), but with little sucess. I think it is a combination of jurisdictional problems and the parental waivers. Also, this is a big money maker -- so that means plenty for the defense attorneys.

*takes another angle*

So what's stoping these kids from acting like they learned their lesson and getting the fuck out of there?

Well, for one thing, they're not just required to act like they've learned their lesson - they're also required to be personally responsible for teaching other kids a lesson as well. I don't know about you, but I'd have a hell of a hard time living with myself if I agreed to mock people for having eating disorders and so forth. All things considered, at least for a while, I'd rather lie on the floor and feel like a decent human being than stand up and feel like a horrible one.

After watching this for a while, I can say that no-one wants to know the fate I wish upon those running this facility.

Extreme times, extreme measures.
Cutting a child with a knife is child abuse too.
Unless it's during surgery, in an attempt to cure them.

Interesting. So, by this:

We are at war in Iraq. We should immediately apprehend all people who disagree with the war, and subject them to "Behavior Enhancement", so that they no longer dissent against the war. These "trouble makers" will no longer cause problems, and thus make the war go smoother.

Disagree? Same basic thing.

Also, by the same note, this measure causes mental problems. As stated before, PTSD, depression, and other mental illness due to being subject. So, we "cure" one "problem", but it causes many more. Hardly a "cure".

I thought that if your parent signed a waiver on you as a child, and something happened because of it, you could still sue for damages when you came of age. I know theres the thing about how your parents make legal decisions for you while your underage, but I thought there was limitations to that, and that it no longer applied after you came of age. Or atleast, there damn well should be, when shit like this is going on. I smell a supreme court case...

My view was always that ultimately, you can't force a kid to like or interact with you.

So if I was ever in that situation, I'd call the kid into the living room and make this little speech:
"I consider you a rational human being. You can make your own choices.

All I ask is that you play by my rules while you live here. That's why I have written down this contract. It says what I demand of you, and what I will give you in return. That includes things like food and a place to live. Since I have worked and paid for this house, the rules I choose to make are my own. You have no right to criticise them. You can only accept them or not.

Should you break the rules, I will ask you to leave my house. Many people have left their parents early. Stay with a friend, stay at a YMCA, stay at a hostel. There too, you will have to comply with rules. Such is life.

It's your choice, and it will be you who makes it. Sign or leave."

Of course, my rules would be a little bit different to the sort of thing some of these parents seem to demand. I don't care whether my kids smoke dope, or who they have sex with.
Heh! I did something much like that with my oldest daughter ( actually, my step-daughter, but I don't think of her that way ). She looked at me like I'd lost my mind! LOL!

But she accepted it, albiet very grudgingly, and she and I are very good friends now. She's an RN with a prestigious private hospital in this area, a good mother, and a very bright young woman. :)

Extreme times, extreme measures.
Cutting a child with a knife is child abuse too.
Unless it's during surgery, in an attempt to cure them.

What exactly is so extreme about these "times" that justifies abusing children?

It is hard to believe you aren't simply trolling.

After watching this for a while, I can say that no-one wants to know the fate I wish upon those running this facility.
LOL! I was just thinking much the same thing, although I was mulling over what a military "snatch" operation would take! :D

LOL! I was just thinking much the same thing, although I was mulling over what a military "snatch" operation would take! :D

Well, you'd need:

1. 3 Boats

2. 50 Guys

3. 50 Guns

4. A Plan

Well, you'd need:

1. 3 Boats

2. 50 Guys

3. 50 Guns

4. A Plan
Dude! You get the guys and boats, and I'll handle the rest! :D

Somebody should kidnap the guy who runs this place and we can force him to lay on HIS face for over a year straight.

I thought that if your parent signed a waiver on you as a child, and something happened because of it, you could still sue for damages when you came of age. I know theres the thing about how your parents make legal decisions for you while your underage, but I thought there was limitations to that, and that it no longer applied after you came of age. Or atleast, there damn well should be, when shit like this is going on. I smell a supreme court case...

Well, my gut tells me this:

Since they are released as of their 18th birthday(When they legally are adults), and that their parents had legal control over them(more or less) until then, then the waiver protects them from lawsuits. As for the Supreme Court, since this is in Jamaica, there is nothing the Court can do to stop them.

But, that's my gut feeling on this.

Somebody should kidnap the guy who runs this place and we can force him to lay on HIS face for over a year straight.
LOL! [ volunteers! ] :D

Dude! You get the guys and boats, and I'll handle the rest! :D

Well, I have acsess to a canoe, and a few logs... As for guys, I could easily get 50.

Seek professional help. Talk to psyciatrists. Maybe your kid has ADD or some other disorder. Don't send them to a prison with untrained and unskilled people don't know what they are doing, and don't know how to manage children(putting them face-down on the floor for 24 hours straight for an indefinate amount of time and not allowing them to move is not proper child management).

1. I don't have kids.
2. I plan on NEVER having kids.
3. As I've repeatedly said, this sort of thing would not be a first resort for me, and it should only be a last resort for anybody.
4. I think that everybody should talk to a psychiatrist. Even (or especially) psychiatrists.
5. I have ADD, actually. It's made my life tougher, but I never really caused any serious problems for my family.
One of my relatives, on the other hand, has ADHD and probably some other problems. He's constantly gotten in trouble for serious stuff and his parents have tried all sorts of things to fix it.
None of them worked, and he's still a problem, and he still lives with his family. They've tried tough love, soft love, therapy, and everything else, but he shows no signs of slowing down.
He's going to keep it up until he kills somebody or, preferably, gets sent to prison.
Of course, prison won't actually help him; it will just make things worse when he gets out (if he gets out).

A program like this might be appropriate in his case (combined with real psychiatric care). It's better than the only other solution I can come up with, which would be killing or crippling him so that he's no longer a threat to anybody. (not saying that I would actually do this, there just aren't that many options left)

Somebody should kidnap the guy who runs this place and we can force him to lay on HIS face for over a year straight.

Sounds good. We'll even trick him into signing a contract somehow. As I'm sure the parents aren't told the "whole" story as to what goes on here(Looking at their website, it doesn't even hint towards it), we can word it in such a way.

Or we could go with this:




Well, you'd need:

1. 3 Boats

2. 50 Guys

3. 50 Guns

4. A Plan



And capture him in the process. I'll be on the first boat, gladly.

Shit! I know at least three programs right here in NC that get above 30%! And they do it with kindness and love and professionals who actually know what they're doing. So this program not only harms the child and makes its owners rich, it doesn't even remotely live up to its claims of "very high rates of success!" Jeeze. :mad:

Part of it could be due to higher standards of accomplishment, but yeah.
It doesn't look good.

Well, I have acsess to a canoe, and a few logs... As for guys, I could easily get 50.
LOL! Welllll ... a canoe and some logs simply won't do. And would the "guys" be trainable? I can be a very, very hard task master when it comes to effective traning. ;)

Sounds good. We'll even trick him into signing a contract somehow. As I'm sure the parents aren't told the "whole" story as to what goes on here(Looking at their website, it doesn't even hint towards it), we can word it in such a way.

Or we could go with this:




And capture him in the process. I'll be on the first boat, gladly.

Yes, this would work... perhaps I could build an artillery cannon? Maybe planes?

Extreme times, extreme measures.
Cutting a child with a knife is child abuse too.
Unless it's during surgery, in an attempt to cure them.

Of course, if the child isn't properly anaesthetized, if the knife isn't properly sterilized, if the surgery isn't properly executed, or if the surgery causes unneccesary damage, the doctors get sued for malpractice. If a surgeon cuts a child with a knife on the rationale of "eh, they have some sort of problem, let's just cut off their leg and see what happens," he or she will lose his/her license to practice medicine. "Oh, well, we couldn't think of anything else to do" does not justify doing something stupid and evil, and there is never, ever, ever, EVER any justification for abusing a child. Period.

There is a difference between sending your kid to bed without TV, and giving it post-traumatic stress disorder.


There certainly is.

LOL! Welllll ... a canoe and some logs simply won't do. And would the "guys" be trainable? I can be a very, very hard task master when it comes to effective traning. ;)

I could get a battleship, aircraft carrier, and some cruisers for $10 at Dollarama. But these guys... trainable, definately.

Interesting. So, by this:

We are at war in Iraq. We should immediately apprehend all people who disagree with the war, and subject them to "Behavior Enhancement", so that they no longer dissent against the war. These "trouble makers" will no longer cause problems, and thus make the war go smoother.

Disagree? Same basic thing.

Not even close.

Also, by the same note, this measure causes mental problems. As stated before, PTSD, depression, and other mental illness due to being subject. So, we "cure" one "problem", but it causes many more. Hardly a "cure".

Chemotherapy causes a few problems as well.

5. I have ADD, actually. It's made my life tougher, but I never really caused any serious problems for my family.
One of my relatives, on the other hand, has ADHD and probably some other problems. He's constantly gotten in trouble for serious stuff and his parents have tried all sorts of things to fix it.
None of them worked, and he's still a problem, and he still lives with his family. They've tried tough love, soft love, therapy, and everything else, but he shows no signs of slowing down.
He's going to keep it up until he kills somebody or, preferably, gets sent to prison.
Of course, prison won't actually help him; it will just make things worse when he gets out (if he gets out).

A program like this might be appropriate in his case (combined with real psychiatric care). It's better than the only other solution I can come up with, which would be killing or crippling him so that he's no longer a threat to anybody. (not saying that I would actually do this, there just aren't that many options left)

Problem is, with severe mental problems, there is likely chemical problems involved as well as mental. This "program" probably wouldn't work at all for such a person, because "behavior" isn't the real problem, it's the effect. The problem lies in the brain, not in the mental state.

Yes, this would work... perhaps I could build an artillery cannon? Maybe planes?
Much as I love close air support, planes won't do for this operation, unless we're simply talking about air transport to someplace close to the objective. Stealth, training and detailed, effective planing are key. :)

Artillery is right out! Heh!

What exactly is so extreme about these "times" that justifies abusing children?

I'm not referring to the time period we're living in, I'm referring to times in the lives of thes kids and their parents.
If you're living with a kid who's completetly, Jerry-Springer-Out-of-Control, then that's a pretty extreme time for you, and an extreme measure would be called for.

It is hard to believe you aren't simply trolling.

I'm not. It seems to me like most people are responding more to what they thinkg I'm saying than what I've actually said.

The Supreme Court could probably impose a law that prohibits parents in the US from sending their child to a facility like this though. As for the facility it's self, as it is overseas we couldn't do much about it, but without children to go to it, there'd be no reason to have it. As 90% of the "student" population is from the US, this would not solve all of it of course, but it would help, and pave the path for other countries to follow suit in prohibiting such things.

Much as I love close air support, planes won't do for this operation, unless we're simply talking about air transport to someplace close to the objective. Stealth, training and detailed, effective planing are key. :)

Artillery is right out! Heh!

Then... maybe:

2 boats, each with machine guns,

2 Blackhawk helicopters

50 AK-47s

I could get a battleship, aircraft carrier, and some cruisers for $10 at Dollarama. But these guys... trainable, definately.
Kewl! I have some friends in the active component who will let us use their training sites on weekends and holidays, and I know some retired Navy types who would be happy to let us borrow some boats. I won't tell you where I'll get the weapons, but let's just say they'll be equivalent to current US Army fireteam standards. ;)

Kewl! I have some friends in the active component who will let us use their training sites on weekends and holidays, and I know some retired Navy types who would be happy to let us borrow some boats. I won't tell you where I'll get the weapons, but let's just say they'll be equivalent to current US Army fireteam standards. ;)

Yes, that's better.

You know, we're probably all going to jail of somebody ends up assassinating this guy one day.

You know, we're probably all going to jail of somebody ends up assassinating this guy one day.

(This is only a joke. If this is actual planning then I'm out.)

Much as I love close air support, planes won't do for this operation, unless we're simply talking about air transport to someplace close to the objective. Stealth, training and detailed, effective planing are key. :)

Artillery is right out! Heh!


I'm in. I think this guy might enjoy some of my old favorites.

Heh, I'm just saying. I wouldn't put it past some people not to assassinate this guy. I mean hell, if somebody did it, I'd probably laugh. But even so, when the case went to trial and hit the news, etc, somebody would look up this form and.... :eek: FBI comes knocking on our doors. (for those of us who live in the US anyway)

Then... maybe:

2 boats, each with machine guns,

2 Blackhawk helicopters

50 AK-47s
Hmmm. Some changes:

ten boats, most of which will be used to transport the non-combatants back to the aircraft ( or the transport ship, whichever we can snag )

50 9 mm, Swedish "K" submachine guns (http://www.lcompanyranger.com/weapons/swedishkpage.htm) ( very light and very effective at close range, with few maintenance problems, and very difficult to pin to any particular source once the serial numbers are filed off! ).

The helicopters? Nahh. Won't need 'em, but if a Blackhawk with weapons mounted makes you feel better, we can rendevous with it just offshore as we go in. ;)

Of course, if the child isn't properly anaesthetized, if the knife isn't properly sterilized, if the surgery isn't properly executed, or if the surgery causes unneccesary damage, the doctors get sued for malpractice. If a surgeon cuts a child with a knife on the rationale of "eh, they have some sort of problem, let's just cut off their leg and see what happens," he or she will lose his/her license to practice medicine. "Oh, well, we couldn't think of anything else to do" does not justify doing something stupid and evil, and there is never, ever, ever, EVER any justification for abusing a child. Period.

Excellent use of the analogy!

Let's break it down:
1. Are the "surgeons" qualified?
They don't seem to have degrees or anything, other than the "independent" psychologist, but most parents don't have degrees in psychology either. Does that make them unfit to discipline their child?
Or is it possible that you can do something well without a degree?
Surgery itself is tricky, but practically anybody can become a trained phlebotamist.
I know that the guy running the place isn't qualified, but I'm not sure about his staff.
If they all had PhDs, would you feel better about the program?

2. They're not just screwing with the kids to see what will happen. They have a theory, and they're acting on it in a predictable and consistant manner. Not just "cutting people" randomly.

3. "never, ever, ever, EVER any justification for abusing a child. Period."
How do you define abuse?
Is spanking an abuse? Time Out? Sending them to bed without supper?
Sending them to jail if they commit murder?
Where is the line between punishment and abuse?

Heh, I'm just saying. I wouldn't put it past some people not to assassinate this guy. I mean hell, if somebody did it, I'd probably laugh. But even so, when the case went to trial and hit the news, etc, somebody would look up this form and.... :eek: FBI comes knocking on our doors. (for those of us who live in the US anyway)

Which i don't! Hah!

Oh, and there's no way it'd actually work.

Then... maybe:

2 boats, each with machine guns,

2 Blackhawk helicopters

50 AK-47s

Uh, I'd opt for something other than AKs. They seem to give the impression of "terrorism" to some people. Perhaps 12 gauge shotguns and some other fully automatic weapon?

Hmmm. Some changes:

ten boats, most of which will be used to transport the non-combatants back to the aircraft ( or the transport ship, whichever we can snag )

50 9 mm, Swedish "K" submachine guns (http://www.lcompanyranger.com/weapons/swedishkpage.htm) ( very light and very effective at close range, with few maintenance problems ).

The helicopters? Nahh. Won't need 'em, but if a Blackhawk with weapons mounted makes you feel better, we can randevous with it just offshore as we go in. ;)

Yes, do so. Why don't we use a Davy Crockett?

Uh, I'd opt for something other than AKs. They seem to give the impression of "terrorism" to some people. Perhaps 12 gauge shotguns and some other fully automatic weapon?

Yes, perhaps OICWs?

Of course, if the child isn't properly anaesthetized, if the knife isn't properly sterilized, if the surgery isn't properly executed, or if the surgery causes unneccesary damage, the doctors get sued for malpractice. If a surgeon cuts a child with a knife on the rationale of "eh, they have some sort of problem, let's just cut off their leg and see what happens," he or she will lose his/her license to practice medicine. "Oh, well, we couldn't think of anything else to do" does not justify doing something stupid and evil, and there is never, ever, ever, EVER any justification for abusing a child. Period.


Thank you.

Yes, perhaps OICWs?

Do they even exist?

... there's no way it'd actually work.
Yes there is.

(This is only a joke. If this is actual planning then I'm out.)
LOL! No guts, no glory! :D

Do they even exist?

Yes.

Yes there is.

Erm... no. Supplies. Ammunition. MONEY.

Problem is, with severe mental problems, there is likely chemical problems involved as well as mental. This "program" probably wouldn't work at all for such a person, because "behavior" isn't the real problem, it's the effect. The problem lies in the brain, not in the mental state.

To some extent I agree, but in addition to the biological factors there IS a mental factor as well. His biology helps him to be out of control, but he also chooses to be that way and to refuse to quit problem behavior.

And while it's true that chemistry can be the answer to biology, it's also true that over medication is a severe problem. A lot of kids are on prescription drugs who don't need to be, just as a lot of them need to be and aren't.
And it's true that drugs alone can't cure most problems.

When all is said and done, I would certainly say that a camp like this should have a number of psychiatrists and psychologists on staff, and that the kids who truly, truly need meds should get them.

3. "never, ever, ever, EVER any justification for abusing a child. Period."
How do you define abuse?
Is spanking an abuse? Time Out? Sending them to bed without supper?
Sending them to jail if they commit murder?
Where is the line between punishment and abuse?

Abuse is:

the physical or mental injury, sexual abuse or exploitation, negligent treatment, or maltreatment: of a child (a person under the age of 18, unless the child protection law of the State in which the child resides specifies a younger age for cases not involving sexual abuse) by a person (including any employee of a residential facility or any staff person providing out-of-home care) who is responsible for the child's welfare under circumstances which indicate that the child's health or welfare is harmed or threatened thereby.

Sure it could work. I mean, you wouldn't need a fucking army like these guys are jokin about. Fly over to Jamaca or wherever, buy yourself a big gun (shouldn't be too hard to find). Pull up there on a grassy knoll with a sniper rifle, bout a mile away from the facility... wait for this fool to drive by... pop his ass. Dump the rifle in the bay, get on a plane and fly on home.

:eek: :sniper:

:)

Abuse is:the physical or mental injury, sexual abuse or exploitation, negligent treatment, or maltreatment: of a child (a person under the age of 18, unless the child protection law of the State in which the child resides specifies a younger age for cases not involving sexual abuse) by a person (including any employee of a residential facility or any staff person providing out-of-home care) who is responsible for the child's welfare under circumstances which indicate that the child's health or welfare is harmed or threatened thereby.

So that covers Spanking, Time Out, AND sending them to bed without supper.

Yes, do so. Why don't we use a Davy Crockett?
Heh! Dude! We'll be going up against a bunch of ill-prepared, non-trained, mostly unarmed civilians. We don't actually want to KILL them, just scare the ever-living crap outta them! They might have a couple of pistols, but a sufficient show of force can quickly persuade them to drop thier weapons.

Like I said: stealth, training and effective planning. :)

Sure it could work. I mean, you wouldn't need a fucking army like these guys are jokin about. Fly over to Jamaca or wherever, buy yourself a big gun (shouldn't be too hard to find). Pull up there on a grassy knoll with a sniper rifle, bout a mile away from the facility... wait for this fool to drive by... pop his ass. Dump the rifle in the bay, get on a plane and fly on home.

:eek: :sniper:

:)
Heh! I like the way you think! But I much prefer to make it look like the dude committed suicide ... no muss, no fuss. :D

Heh! Dude! We'll be going up against a bunch of ill-prepared, non-trained, mostly unarmed civilians. We don't actually want to KILL them, just scare the ever-living crap outta them! They might have a couple of pistols, but a sufficient show of force can quickly persuade them to drop thier weapons.

Like I said: stealth, training and effective planning. :)

You know, given that this is Jamaica, you could probably take the same amount of money and just bribe the government to shut it down and prosecute the people responsible.

Not to be a party pooper or anything.

So that covers Spanking, Time Out, AND sending them to bed without supper.

And putting someone in a OP for eighteen months.

Erm... no. Supplies. Ammunition. MONEY.
Check.

Check.

Check. :)

You know, given that this is Jamaica, you could probably take the same amount of money and just bribe the government to shut it down and prosecute the people responsible.

Not to be a party pooper or anything.
ROFLMAO!! Perhaps, but given that it IS Jamaica, the bribe would hold only until someone who WASN'T bribed found out about it. :)

*sigh*

Well, good luck...

You know, given that this is Jamaica, you could probably take the same amount of money and just bribe the government to shut it down and prosecute the people responsible.

Not to be a party pooper or anything.

But our way is more fun.... er effective.

So that covers Spanking, Time Out, AND sending them to bed without supper.

And putting someone in a OP for eighteen months.

Well, yeah.
If spanking a kid is abuse, and time out is abuse, then OP for 18 months sure as heck would also qualify.

But I don't tend to see spanking or time-out as abuse.
As for the 18 months OP, that depends on how it's done.
They check in every 24 hours. As I've said, that's a bit less often than I'd think appropriate, but let's go with that.
If every day they ask if the person has learned their lesson, and they're told to go bugger their mother or something, or even simply told "no", then the kid's the one setting the time limit of his/her punishment.

*sigh*

Well, good luck...
LOL! :D

ROFLMAO!! Perhaps, but given that it IS Jamaica, the bribe would hold only until someone who WASN'T bribed found out about it. :)

No, I've heard that they are honest politicians down there.

Anway, the amount of money spent on a small scale amphibious raid should be more than enough to put the people who run this place in a Jamaican prison. Given who they are, I wouldn't rate there chances of survival overmuch so the chances of them staging a comeback are slim.

But our way is more fun.... er effective.
That too! :D

Seriously, Am I the only person who's watched Clockwork Orange and thought that the brainwashing was a pretty good idea (if imperfectly executed)?

Excellent use of the analogy!

Let's break it down:
1. Are the "surgeons" qualified?
They don't seem to have degrees or anything, other than the "independent" psychologist, but most parents don't have degrees in psychology either. Does that make them unfit to discipline their child?

Sometimes, yes, it does. That's why we have child protection services and such.

Or is it possible that you can do something well without a degree?

Of course it is. It's also possible to do it terribly.

Surgery itself is tricky, but practically anybody can become a trained phlebotamist.

Indeed. This is one of the reasons why people rarely put their lives in the hands of phlebotamists.

I know that the guy running the place isn't qualified, but I'm not sure about his staff.
If they all had PhDs, would you feel better about the program?

No. However, I can't honestly imagine that a large group of people with PhDs in education and/or child psychology would come up with ideas as stupid as "let's make them all insult each other to build character!"

2. They're not just screwing with the kids to see what will happen. They have a theory, and they're acting on it in a predictable and consistant manner. Not just "cutting people" randomly.

Ah. To continue with the surgery analogy, that sounds as if it would now be acceptable if a surgeon believed that cutting off your leg would cure your brain cancer, and therefore predictably and consistantly did so. Their "theory" is based on nothing, and such baseless hypotheses have no place being using as "parenting" strategies.

3. "never, ever, ever, EVER any justification for abusing a child. Period."
How do you define abuse?
Is spanking an abuse? Time Out? Sending them to bed without supper?
Sending them to jail if they commit murder?
Where is the line between punishment and abuse?

Deliberately inflicting physical, emotional, or mental pain and anguish is abuse. The lines between punishment and abuse really tend to be pretty clear, I think. Being put in time-out for ten minutes is not abuse; being put in time-out for a week is. Being forced to skip a meal is not abuse; being starved for three days is. Lightly swatting a child's bottom is not abuse; whipping them with a belt till they have welts all over their bottom is. Grounding your kids for dating "the wrong people" or for dressing "inappropriately" is stupid, but is not abuse. Sending them to prison, where they will be forced to lie on their face until they admit that they're horrible people, most certainly is.

If I were one of those kids that got thrown in that place, day after I turned 18... I think I'd honestly do what I just said.

No, I've heard that they are honest politicians down there.

Anway, the amount of money spent on a small scale amphibious raid should be more than enough to put the people who run this place in a Jamaican prison. Given who they are, I wouldn't rate there chances of survival overmuch so the chances of them staging a comeback are slim.
That's too "iffy" for my tastes, but meh. ;)

Was that the Outer Limits episode?

That's to "iffy" for my tastes, but meh. ;)

Granted, it's less fun. But shooting people is one thing: they know what's happening and understand it. It's infinitely more scary when the authorities inexplicably turn on them, strip them of their rights, and throw them in some hell-hole for an indefinite period without reason.

Plus, I would see the irony.

To some extent I agree, but in addition to the biological factors there IS a mental factor as well. His biology helps him to be out of control, but he also chooses to be that way and to refuse to quit problem behavior.

And while it's true that chemistry can be the answer to biology, it's also true that over medication is a severe problem. A lot of kids are on prescription drugs who don't need to be, just as a lot of them need to be and aren't.
And it's true that drugs alone can't cure most problems.

When all is said and done, I would certainly say that a camp like this should have a number of psychiatrists and psychologists on staff, and that the kids who truly, truly need meds should get them.

You believe torture is appropriate treatment, but are concerned about overmedication of children?

Get your priorities straight. (And your facts).

To some extent I agree, but in addition to the biological factors there IS a mental factor as well. His biology helps him to be out of control, but he also chooses to be that way and to refuse to quit problem behavior.

And while it's true that chemistry can be the answer to biology, it's also true that over medication is a severe problem. A lot of kids are on prescription drugs who don't need to be, just as a lot of them need to be and aren't.
And it's true that drugs alone can't cure most problems.

When all is said and done, I would certainly say that a camp like this should have a number of psychiatrists and psychologists on staff, and that the kids who truly, truly need meds should get them.

I'm not going to say any more on your particular case, due to not knowing full detail. I can't make good judgement on that issue.

The rest is all true. Now Don't get me wrong, I'm usually the first to be against unnecessary drug use, which should be one of the last resorts. Sometimes, at least for the most extreme cases, it is needed. Many of the reasons that children are given drugs these days(My son just isn't listening to me!) are largely due to lax parenting earlier on(I like to call it Friend-first parenting, in which parents like to be friends to their kids before being parents). Some kids are also extremely out of control, due to behavior issues. However, I have a hard time stomaching that letting them be kidnapped and incarcerated for up to 7 years is the best, or even a plausible method. In such children, I would expect severe emotional and behavior problems later on in life.

Also, there is entire moral issues to take into consideration with any behavior modification, but I won't get into that. It's long and boring.

Seriously, Am I the only person who's watched Clockwork Orange and thought that the brainwashing was a pretty good idea (if imperfectly executed)?

Only if the recipient allows the treatment. If the person wants to get such a drug given to them to change, they should be able to.

There is a lot of chest-thumping and "OMG! The EVIL PARENTS! They must all be self-centred arseholes who never spent time with their kids." And a lot of sympathy for the children, a la "they're just innocent little children." I've spent 3 months teaching in a high school (the worst class in the school). These kids are not innocent. They are manipulative, cruel, sadistic, insolent pricks who need to be taught a lesson. They need boundaries. They need consistency. They need someone to stand up and say, "Calling your teacher an f**king gay bitch is not okay behaviour. Getting stoned on school premises and arriving at class stoned is not okay behaviour. Threatening your teacher for requesting that you remain on school premises is not okay behaviour. Refusing to follow instructions or rules is not okay behaviour." Instead, we have bleeding heart idiots running around saying, "Oh, it's just adolescent rebellion." Did anyone actually read what the kids were up to? They were up on charges, some of them. And all of you talking about the OP room. The kids choose to be in there. They know the consequences of their actions. They make the choice by misbehaving.

And personally, starving your children (sending them to bed without dinner) is to me, one of the most horrific forms of abuse. Far worse than making them sit still or lie down for a period of time to think about their behaviour.

Seriously, Am I the only person who's watched Clockwork Orange and thought that the brainwashing was a pretty good idea (if imperfectly executed)?

Seriously, yes. You appear to have missed the whole point of that tale.

Granted, it's less fun. But shooting people is one thing: they know what's happening and understand it. It's infinitely more scary when the authorities inexplicably turn on them, strip them of their rights, and throw them in some hell-hole for an indefinite period without reason.

Plus, I would see the irony.
Heh! I would love to see the expressions on their faces! :D

There is a lot of chest-thumping and "OMG! The EVIL PARENTS! They must all be self-centred arseholes who never spent time with their kids." And a lot of sympathy for the children, a la "they're just innocent little children." I've spent 3 months teaching in a high school (the worst class in the school). These kids are not innocent. They are manipulative, cruel, sadistic, insolent pricks who need to be taught a lesson. They need boundaries. They need consistency. They need someone to stand up and say, "Calling your teacher an f**king gay bitch is not okay behaviour. Getting stoned on school premises and arriving at class stoned is not okay behaviour. Threatening your teacher for requesting that you remain on school premises is not okay behaviour. Refusing to follow instructions or rules is not okay behaviour." Instead, we have bleeding heart idiots running around saying, "Oh, it's just adolescent rebellion." Did anyone actually read what the kids were up to? They were up on charges, some of them. And all of you talking about the OP room. The kids choose to be in there. They know the consequences of their actions. They make the choice by misbehaving.

And personally, starving your children (sending them to bed without dinner) is to me, one of the most horrific forms of abuse. Far worse than making them sit still or lie down for a period of time to think about their behaviour.

You haven't read the links on how these children are treated, have you?

No one said the children were beautific innocents. Just that torturing them is a bad idea.

There is a lot of chest-thumping and "OMG! The EVIL PARENTS! They must all be self-centred arseholes who never spent time with their kids." And a lot of sympathy for the children, a la "they're just innocent little children." I've spent 3 months teaching in a high school (the worst class in the school). These kids are not innocent. They are manipulative, cruel, sadistic, insolent pricks who need to be taught a lesson. They need boundaries. They need consistency. They need someone to stand up and say, "Calling your teacher an f**king gay bitch is not okay behaviour. Getting stoned on school premises and arriving at class stoned is not okay behaviour. Threatening your teacher for requesting that you remain on school premises is not okay behaviour. Refusing to follow instructions or rules is not okay behaviour." Instead, we have bleeding heart idiots running around saying, "Oh, it's just adolescent rebellion." Did anyone actually read what the kids were up to? They were up on charges, some of them. And all of you talking about the OP room. The kids choose to be in there. They know the consequences of their actions. They make the choice by misbehaving.

And personally, starving your children (sending them to bed without dinner) is to me, one of the most horrific forms of abuse. Far worse than making them sit still or lie down for a period of time to think about their behaviour.
Sigh. Do you actually maintain that most of the problems children have are NOT due to their parents' stupidity or lack of concern? :(

You haven't read the links on how these children are treated, have you?

No one said the children were beautific innocents. Just that torturing them is a bad idea.

I read about the points system and the OP in the original post. Not sure how that qualifies as abuse. Many primary schools have less extreme, but similar points systems.

I read about the points system and the OP in the original post. Not sure how that qualifies as abuse. Many primary schools have less extreme, but similar points systems.

This link is better. (http://www.isaccorp.org/tranquilitybay.html)

Complaints include beatings, brutal physical restraint resulting in broken bones, sexual assault, food deprivation, and excessive use of isolation - known as Observation Placement or OP.
....
ISAC has received reports of staff members providing marijuana and cocaine to students in exchange for sexual favors.

During sworn testimony in the August 2004 case of WWASPS vs PURE, WWASPS President Ken Kay stated that in his opinion, sexual activity between staff members and students is "not necessarily" abuse.
....
Randall Hinton, a former long-time staff member, has reportedly admitted to using pepper spray on students and spraying it in their eyes from a distance of about 2 feet.

At least one student was reportedly hog-tied when he was sprayed by Hinton.

Sigh. Do you actually maintain that most of the problems children have are NOT due to their parents' stupidity or lack of concern? :(

No, however, many of the children I teach have no home problems. Yet, because of a lax admin, and the behaviour tolerated by a significant portion of society, many of them engage in reckless, and downright dangerous behaviour. Setting off flares in stairwells for instance. Dangling teachers over balconies.

This link is better. (http://www.isaccorp.org/tranquilitybay.html)

Hmmm, well, if that is all true, as it seems to be, then I retract my statements regarding Tranquility Bay specifically. However, I do stand by my statements about children these days.

I say we take a poll on who would laugh if this guy that runs the place ate a bullet.

I say we take a poll on who would laugh if this guy that runs the place ate a bullet.

Do so.

Hmmm, well, if that is all true, as it seems to be, then I retract my statements regarding Tranquility Bay specifically. However, I do stand by my statements about children these days.

I really do blame the parents. Granted, there is going to be the occasional psychopath, that's unavoidable - and should be dealt with appropriately- , but honestly, where do you think these awful kids picked up their behavior in the first place?

And we are talking about minors. Their brains don't work properly. If they are being little asshats, there is no point blaming them per se. It's not like they have a well developed sense of self or morality.

No, however, many of the children I teach have no home problems. Yet, because of a lax admin, and the behaviour tolerated by a significant portion of society, many of them engage in reckless, and downright dangerous behaviour. Setting off flares in stairwells for instance. Dangling teachers over balconies.

Expulsion or Juvie Hall. Kidnapping and torture? Not so much.

What we do need, however, is more "Scared-Straight" style programs. I watched that video back when I was forteen, and it scared me straighter than I already was(WHich was almost an arrow-I was a very well mannered kid).

Somebody should kidnap the guy who runs this place and we can force him to lay on HIS face for over a year straight.
His father probably did.

His father is Ken Kay, who runs WWASP.

Lets kidnap his father too then. :)

It's child abuse.

The parents themselves should at least be chargable with some kind of negligent child abuse charge under US laws? Surely they should reasonably have exercised greater care and discretion in signing over 49% custody, and greater supervision over the lesser custodian (Tranquility Bay)?

It's child abuse.

The parents themselves should at least be chargable with some kind of negligent child abuse charge under US laws? Surely they should reasonably have exercised greater care and discretion in signing over 49% custody, and greater supervision over the lesser custodian (Tranquility Bay)?

In fairness, the parents don't know what's going on inside there. They might see it as just another rehab centre.

Expulsion or Juvie Hall. Kidnapping and torture? Not so much.

What we do need, however, is more "Scared-Straight" style programs. I watched that video back when I was forteen, and it scared me straighter than I already was(WHich was almost an arrow-I was a very well mannered kid).

Where do they go after you expel them? What happens to them? Once you've been kicked out of 3 schools in Queensland, you can't go back. So are they destined to live their lives with a 9th grade education?

The problem with Scared Straight style videos and programs is that it doesn't work on the kids it's meant to work on. The kids it's meant to work on laugh about it, and the kids who aren't likely to ever need it are the ones who are terrified.

Kids need boundaries. Maybe not this extreme, but they do need to know this is where it stops. You mess up, you're gonna put up with this until you accept that you're wrong. Kicking them out of school gives them nothing. No hope, no boundaries, no help to improve. Forcing them into a program which makes them confront themselves (Eg. Experiencing what they have put others through) and making them stay until they're ready to change is a far better way of helping them.

This is an interesting read. (http://www.tranquilitybay.org/faq.php?id=1)

(link)

No hope, no boundaries, no help to improve. Forcing them into a program which makes them confront themselves (Eg. Experiencing what they have put others through) and making them stay until they're ready to change is a far better way of helping them.

What's wrong with kicking them out in 9th grade (that's 16 right?)

That used to be the school leaving age*. Maybe the problem is that not everyone needs or wants a full education, and it shouldn't be forced on them if so.

Possibly a job, or somesuch, would be better. And it's not like there aren't a plethora of adult education schemes these days.

*The current western obsession with education is nothing more than a government scam to reduce the unemployment figures.

What's wrong with kicking them out in 9th grade (that's 16 right?)

Typically 14-15, actually.

In fairness, the parents don't know what's going on inside there. They might see it as just another rehab centre.
The point that they failed to know, or to reasonably ensure that they could know (ie to ensure reasonable supervision) is what constitutes negligence.

Before you voluntarily sign over custody rights, and send you child to physically reside in the absolute care of someone, especially in conditions where they will be absolutely isolated from outside contact, a reasonable expectation is you consider the matter carefully and fully investigate exactly to who and to what circumstances you are consigning your child.
A reasonable expectation is that you make certain that arrangements facilitate the capacity for you to exercise reasonable supervision - reasonable supervision being that sufficient to notice child abuse as obvious as that described as occuring in this case.

That they didnt know is entirely the result of complacency on their part. They did not exercise reasonable care in their capacity as parents. The situation could be much worse and appear the same from the parents point of view. Their negligence is unacceptable and should (imo) be more than sufficient justification for a finding of negligence.

From the parent's point of view, anything whatsoever could be going on in those camps. The fact is internees could have been being used as prostitutes and forced to not mention this in their letters, and ' not graduted' to a level that warrents phone or physical contact with parents, until it is clear they are too afraid to say anything about their treatment, and things would not have appeared differently to their current appearance (during their child's internmet) from their point of veiw.

If having so little idea who your child is whith, what circumstances they are in etc that for all you can tell they could very easily to tortured, abused, or rented out for their bodies, is not negligent child abuse, then what is?

What's wrong with kicking them out in 9th grade (that's 16 right?)

That used to be the school leaving age*. Maybe the problem is that not everyone needs or wants a full education, and it shouldn't be forced on them if so.

Possibly a job, or somesuch, would be better. And it's not like there aren't a plethora of adult education schemes these days.

*The current western obsession with education is nothing more than a government scam to reduce the unemployment figures.

In Australia, Year 9 is 14. And the problem with kicking them out is that they receive no qualifications, they can't get a job until 15, there is extremely high youth unemployment, apprentices have to have at least a Year 10 Certificate, and in some trades a Senior Certificate, most employers won't hire a kid who's been kicked out of school for violently assaulting a teacher or fellow student (for obvious reasons), and they can't enter an adult education scheme in this country at least, until they are 18.

I agree completely that not everyone needs or wants a full education. I am a huge advocate for reforming the whole system to make access to trades etc. much easier for students. I furthermore agree with you about the fact that the obsession with education is a scam.

However, the reality is that in today's world, without an education, these kids have nothing.

Typically 14-15, actually.

Well, if they haven't learned their numbers and letters by then, they most likely never will.

And, contrary to popular belief, you don't need to stay in school until you are 18 to find a job. Hell, many people who can hardly speak english find jobs.

This is an interesting read. (http://www.tranquilitybay.org/faq.php?id=1)

(link)

Just don't believe what they say. Foir example, the US Embassy has no jurisdiction over the facility. They've been asked to investigate human rights abuses there and said they cannot do so.

EDIT: On the other hand, the US Embassy did help force the closure of Paradise Cove, a WWASP facility in Samoa.

I know that the guy running the place isn't qualified, but I'm not sure about his staff.
If they all had PhDs, would you feel better about the program?



Just for the record:

"Most of the 200 Jamaican staff members are reportedly in their late teens or early 20's and are unskilled workers earning a minimum wage."

******
"Jay Kay, owner and director of Tranquility Bay, holds no credentials that commonly qualify individuals to work with children.

He is however, the son of WWASPS President Ken Kay.

After dropping out of college, Jay Kay managed a gas station mini-mart in San Diego, CA.

He then worked as a guard at Brightway Adolescent Hospital and eventually became the administrator of the facility.

Children were "evaluated" at Brightway before being sent to other WWASPS/Teen Help affiliated facilities such as Tranquility Bay and Casa by the Sea.

During an investigation of Brightway, Utah State officials found that many of the patient care plans were identical and the staff had failed to report at least one suspected case of abuse.

Jay Kay was declared bankrupt in 1994, just 2 years prior to the purchase of Tranquility Bay."

The current western obsession with education is nothing more than a government scam to reduce the unemployment figures.

Well, sort of. Education is good for the economy as it improves the quality of labour and public awareness, so many people benefit from the education of a few (classifying it as a merit good). It does not reduce unemployment. France is one of the best educated countries in the world and has a huge rate of unemployment.

In Australia, Year 9 is 14. And the problem with kicking them out is that they receive no qualifications, they can't get a job until 15, there is extremely high youth unemployment, apprentices have to have at least a Year 10 Certificate, and in some trades a Senior Certificate, most employers won't hire a kid who's been kicked out of school for violently assaulting a teacher or fellow student (for obvious reasons), and they can't enter an adult education scheme in this country at least, until they are 18.

I agree completely that not everyone needs or wants a full education. I am a huge advocate for reforming the whole system to make access to trades etc. much easier for students. I furthermore agree with you about the fact that the obsession with education is a scam.

However, the reality is that in today's world, without an education, these kids have nothing.

It's the qualifications thing that always bugs me. I don't know how it is in australia, but if it is anything like the US/UK, then qualifications are awarded pretty much for solely for academic work and I don't think that is either necessary or appropriate. Contrary to recieved wisdom, one can be blissfully unaware of shakespere and still live a full life.

It's just unrealistic to subject everyone in the population to what basically amounts to preparatory work for university. And then insist that they complete it in order to enter a skilled trade or other blue collar position.

Really, governments should bring back trade schools. It probably would address some of the discipline problems too.

Well this one struck a never, so I composed a quick email to the Cabinet Office of Jamaica(which includes the Office of Prime Minister).

To the Right Honorable Portia Simpson Miller, Prime Minister of Jamaica:

Prime Minister I write in full understanding that the odds of my email actually reaching your eyes are poor at best. As a newly elected Head of State your duties one can assume are manifold and such things as relatively anonymous emails through your government’s website fall quite low on your list of priorities. Yet, I have recently come across something so egregious that I feel it is my duty to at least try to reach someone with the power to act.

At this very moment, Madame Prime Minister, I fear that a violation of the basic rights and human dignity of hundreds of adolescents is occurring on Jamaican soil. I speak of the so called ‘Tranquility Bay’ facility that has been operating in Jamaica since 1997. Since that date, hundreds if not thousands of children, some as young as 12 years of age, have been shipped against their will to this facility for the purposes of ‘behavior modification.’ Most of these children - in fact upwards of 90% - have come from the United States of America. Parents, worried about their child’s behavior, sign over to this facility part of their custody rights, and agree not to hold the facility liable for any damage inflicted during ‘treatment.’

What goes on in this facility is far from ‘treatment,’ and would make any moral person cringe. However, don’t take my testimony, as I have not seen this facility firsthand. Take instead the testimony of journalists and the victims themselves –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tranquility_Bay
http://education.guardian.co.uk/classroomviolence/story/0,12388,987932,00.html
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,987168,00.html
Again understanding that you are a busy woman, I’ll highlight some examples.

“The first most teenagers hear of Tranquility is therefore when they are woken from their beds at home at 4am by guards, who place them in a van, handcuffed if necessary, drive them to an airport and fly them to Jamaica. The child will not be allowed to speak to his or her parents for up to six months, or see them for up to a year.”
“When most children first arrive they find it difficult to believe that they have no alternative but to submit. In shock, frightened and angry, many simply refuse to obey. This is when they discover the alternative. Guards take them (if necessary by force) to a small bare room and make them (again by force if necessary) lie flat on their face, arms by their sides, on the tiled floor. Watched by a guard, they must remain lying face down, forbidden to speak or move a muscle except for 10 minutes every hour, when they may sit up and stretch before resuming the position. Modest meals are brought to them, and at night they sleep on the floor of the corridor outside under electric light and the gaze of a guard. At dawn they resume the position. This is known officially as being 'in OP' - Observation Placement - and more casually as 'lying on your face'. Any level student can be sent to OP, and it automatically demotes them to level 1 and zero points. Every 24 hours, students in OP are reviewed by staff, and only sincere and unconditional contrition will earn their release. If they are unrepentant? 'Well, they get another 24 hours.' One boy told me he'd spent six months in OP. I didn't think this could be true, but it transpired this was not even exceptional. 'Oh no,' says Kay. 'The record is actually held by a female.' On and off, she spent 18 months lying on her face.”
“There is no free time, and you are never alone. At 10pm everyone is in bed for Shut Down; the lights go off, and Tranquility is silent, save for waves crashing on to the beach below. Chaperones watch you through the night. And the next day is exactly the same. As is the next, and the next.”
“…students are forbidden to speak, stand up, sit down or move without permission.”

In addition, the end goal of this program is to brainwash these children into being loving and docile, and of course to believe Tranquility Bay saved their lives. Those who refuse can be in the program for years, subjected to the same treatment day in and day out.

And this is being inflicted, if I may remind you, upon children ages 12 to 18. These human beings are being held on your soil in what amounts to an Orwellian prison camp, which violates the most basic rights we as human beings are entitled to expect. Jamaica is a member of the United Nations, so if I may be so bold as to quote to you some of that organization’s Universal Declaration of Human Rights – “All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood” (Article I). “Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.” (Article III). “No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.” (Article V). “No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile” (Article IX).

I submit, Madame Prime Minister, that such a camp using such methods is in egregious violation of the spirit of human rights and human dignity that Jamaica, as a member of the United Nations and a signatory to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights has a solemn duty to uphold. More than that, I understand that you have throughout your political career represented the poor, the unemployed – the downtrodden, essentially. If I may be as presumptuous to quote you your own speech when the election results were announced earlier this year - "I accept your mandate... and pledge to honour my commitment to serve you all” (BBC). Madame Prime Minister I beg you – uphold your nation’s commitment to the cause of human dignity and human freedom. Conduct a proper government investigation into Tranquility Bay, regulate it, shut it down, but do something, anything to help the people being abused on Jamaican soil.

I thank you for your time.

A Concerned Citizen of the World

Perhaps the rest of you could do the same? You can contact the Cabinet Office here -
http://www.cabinet.gov.jm/cabcon.asp

Well this one struck a never, so I composed a quick email to the Cabinet Office of Jamaica(which includes the Office of Prime Minister).



Perhaps the rest of you could do the same? You can contact the Cabinet Office here -
http://www.cabinet.gov.jm/cabcon.asp

Wow. Nicely done.

great to see someone actually taking action. I'll send an e-mail as well.

Well, if they haven't learned their numbers and letters by then, they most likely never will.

And, contrary to popular belief, you don't need to stay in school until you are 18 to find a job. Hell, many people who can hardly speak english find jobs.

Many of these children have the potential to do far better. And I never said that they should be forced to stay in school. Just that they don't have a lot of options for anything better than minimum wage if they didn't.

Well, sort of. Education is good for the economy as it improves the quality of labour and public awareness, so many people benefit from the education of a few (classifying it as a merit good). It does not reduce unemployment. France is one of the best educated countries in the world and has a huge rate of unemployment.

Not really. Unemployment is typically highest among the under 25s (or so). The UK government learned pretty early on that if you increase the school leaving age to 16 from 14, then, magically, hundreds of thousands of unemployed people disappear from the rolls overnight.

Further, everyone who is in full time education isn't counted as unemployed. So if you can keep people in education programmes after 16, then they never appear as unemployed.

No-one stopped to consider the consequences of this however. For a start, many people just aren't able effectively stick education out that long and drop out. Unfortunately, because the norm - or at least the expectation of the norm - is that people should stay in school, these folks become effectively become unemployable. Simply because they don't have the aptitude to spend numerous years in a classroom.

As to improving the quality of the workforce, that would be true if there was a shortage of college graduates. But there isn't. The plain fact is that a great many people are overqualified for the positions they hold. However, owing to the debts they have incurred by extending their education so long, it is more expensive to employ them. That's hardly efficient. Moreover, they may actually suffer a reduced standard of living than they otherwise would, owing to having to repay those debts, despite earning more. It's also ironic, because one of the biggest fears of governments these days is increasing labor costs.

Long term education is good for governments, and it is good for lending institutions. I don't believe it is the blessing for everyone else that people claim however.

If you like education, and you aspire to a white collar job that requires the types of skill that it helps develop, then that's fine. I have no problem with that. I just feel that it is unreasonable to set that same goal for everyone else.

I don't plan to.

You might like living in North Korea then. The kind of crap being run there sounds just like what NK does for it's citizenry. Brainwashing them to love the leadership, no matter what happens.

But once they're out of the system, let's see how many cases of parents getting killed by the very kids they sent there arise.

I have an idea. Let's start seeding information to terror groups that Tranquility and the home of the douchebag running it is actually a prime US strategic asset. The world would be much better with both places and the people running them turned into smoking holes in the ground.

It's the qualifications thing that always bugs me. I don't know how it is in australia, but if it is anything like the US/UK, then qualifications are awarded pretty much for solely for academic work and I don't think that is either necessary or appropriate. Contrary to recieved wisdom, one can be blissfully unaware of shakespere and still live a full life.

It's just unrealistic to subject everyone in the population to what basically amounts to preparatory work for university. And then insist that they complete it in order to enter a skilled trade or other blue collar position.

Really, governments should bring back trade schools. It probably would address some of the discipline problems too.

I agree completely. I actually was almost lynched by classmates and lecturers during my teaching degree for suggesting this.

Many of these children have the potential to do far better. And I never said that they should be forced to stay in school. Just that they don't have a lot of options for anything better than minimum wage if they didn't.

It's the obsession with professional credentialism.

Arguably, they could start in a minimum wage job, and build upon that. Unfortunately conventional wisdom is that without some form of qualification they don't ever deserve anything better, no matter how hard they work, which traps them in a minimum wage position forever.

You might like living in North Korea then. The kind of crap being run there sounds just like what NK does for it's citizenry. Brainwashing them to love the leadership, no matter what happens.

But once they're out of the system, let's see how many cases of parents getting killed by the very kids they sent there arise.

I have an idea. Let's start seeding information to terror groups that Tranquility and the home of the douchebag running it is actually a prime US strategic asset. The world would be much better with both places and the people running them turned into smoking holes in the ground.
...with the unfortunate side-effect of the deaths of all the children that need to be saved in the first place.

No statistics, but it certainly sounds effective to me:


Sure, if you like pre-programmed robots. I know what you are now you commie. Individual thought is a crime in your world. Pol Pot would love you.

It's the obsession with professional credentialism.

Arguably, they could start in a minimum wage job, and build upon that. Unfortunately conventional wisdom is that without some form of qualification they don't ever deserve anything better, no matter how hard they work, which traps them in a minimum wage position forever.

Again, I agree completely.

Again, I agree completely.

Yeah. It makes me miss the old labour party. I might not have agreed with everything they said, but at least they had their heads screwed on straight and their feet on the ground.

Wow. Nicely done.

great to see someone actually taking action. I'll send an e-mail as well.

Thanks.:)

I saw Eutrusca's idea of a surgical military strike earlier in the thread.... but I thought perhaps before we engage in international terrorism we might try letterwriting.

I saw Eutrusca's idea of a surgical military strike earlier in the thread.... but I thought perhaps before we engage in international terrorism we might try letterwriting.

That's just Unamerican!

(Good job BTW).

Do these Jamaican fuckers have an email address? Let's fuck them up.

EDIT: Got 'em.

director@tranquilitybay.org
admissions@tranquilitybay.org
hrd@tranquilitybay.org

That's just Unamerican!

(Good job BTW).

Maybe it's unamerican.... let's just hope it's not unjamaican.:p

And thanks.

Do these Jamaican fuckers have an email address? Let's fuck them up.

EDIT: Got 'em.

director@tranquilitybay.org
admissions@tranquilitybay.org
hrd@tranquilitybay.org


Nice find. I predict a deluge of hate mail.:D Oh, just in case their Jamaican-ness comes into play.... the guy who owns the facility is American. It's his staff that's mostly Jamaican.

Sometimes it can take that long to break the will of a stubborn person, and some people cannot be helped unless their will is broken first, then they are rebuilt.



Didn't you read the article?



Of course, but believe it or not those methods are NOT 100% successful.
:rolleyes:

I'm sorry for necroquoting, but as I was reading though this caught my eye as the biggest piece of bullshit I have seen in a while. Those of you who know me will know that I do not resort so swearing easily on this forum, but in this case it is definately justified. If someone is stubborn you have to BREAK THEIR WILL??? That is killing them! That is destroying they're personality, and everything that makes them, them. You sick son of a bitch. What the fuck is the justification for taking someone's personality apart piece by piece against their will, and rebuilding it in the way you want? So they don't speak at mealtimes any more? So they don't go through teenage anst? Because they like to ingest a certain herb? I'm sorry, but for once I will have to use the smiley that I thought I'd never use. :upyours: wanker!

That is insanity.

What kind of parent allows their kid to go to a facility, handcuffed no less, and be forced to lie down for nearly the entire time they are awake? That can happen for "talking to another student" or looking out the window (escape plans, apparently).

Not allowed to talk, move or speak? One boy spent two years like that, until they saw fit to "promote" him.

The psychological tampering that years of abuse like that does to children is just... beyond belief. They are beaten into submission and drowned in "you are happy!" videos for so long they start to believe it.

If one place on Earth needs to spontaneously explode, that is it.

I'm sorry for necroquoting, but as I was reading though this caught my eye as the biggest piece of bullshit I have seen in a while. Those of you who know me will know that I do not resort so swearing easily on this forum, but in this case it is definately justified. If someone is stubborn you have to BREAK THEIR WILL??? That is killing them! That is destroying they're personality, and everything that makes them, them. You sick son of a bitch. What the fuck is the justification for taking someone's personality apart piece by piece against their will, and rebuilding it in the way you want? So they don't speak at mealtimes any more? So they don't go through teenage anst? Because they like to ingest a certain herb? I'm sorry, but for once I will have to use the smiley that I thought I'd never use. :upyours: wanker!

I agree and the same can be said for destroying a personality through the use of psycho-active drugs as well. Not all torture is physical, nor are all scars seen.

Dude! You get the guys and boats, and I'll handle the rest! :D

You got explosives too? Places like these should be razed to the ground. Preferably with the people running it inside.

Heh! I like the way you think! But I much prefer to make it look like the dude committed suicide ... no muss, no fuss. :D

Hmm, shoot out his tires on a tight bend next to a coastal cliff?

And personally, starving your children (sending them to bed without dinner) is to me, one of the most horrific forms of abuse. Far worse than making them sit still or lie down for a period of time to think about their behaviour.

You realize that the rations listed in the article is mostly liquid? I don't think nutrition is something that is of much concern to whoever runs the place. Not to mention the general level of filth and apathy for medical treatment when required. Brainwashing is what's going on here. Preprogramming and oppression of individual thought combined with sheer cruelty by denying medical aid to those who need it.

If you're a teacher like you claim to be, you would know just exactly how bad brainwashing and systematic reprogamming of people to a tightly defined spectrum is.

You want an example of how bad? North Korea and the people there come to mind. No matter how badly they've been abused, they've been programmed to love their leadership. How's this any different except that they don't actively gun down the inmates?

I take it back. You don't sound like much of a teacher.

If anyone want to knock over this particular joint, count me in. *cocks twin Colt .45*

I think I must be like the 500th person in the thread to say this.

You realize that the rations listed in the article is mostly liquid? I don't think nutrition is something that is of much concern to whoever runs the place. Not to mention the general level of filth and apathy for medical treatment when required. Brainwashing is what's going on here. Preprogramming and oppression of individual thought combined with sheer cruelty by denying medical aid to those who need it.

If you're a teacher like you claim to be, you would know just exactly how bad brainwashing and systematic reprogamming of people to a tightly defined spectrum is.

You want an example of how bad? North Korea and the people there come to mind. No matter how badly they've been abused, they've been programmed to love their leadership. How's this any different except that they don't actively gun down the inmates?

I take it back. You don't sound like much of a teacher.

Fuck you. I already said that after finding out more info about the joint I retract my previous statements.

I happen to find denying your child food for misbehaviour is not a logical consequence for any misbehaviour (dessert is a different matter) and quite cruel.

And I don't have to sound like a teacher on this forum. For two reasons:

A) It's the fucking holidays,
B) It's my private life. I can say whatever the fuck I like.

Or aren't teachers allowed to have a life now?

Fuck you. I already said that after finding out more info about the joint I retract my previous statements.

Fine. I retract my previous statement as well. Things like this happening make me very angry, and I have very little empathy for those that support it, even if mistakenly informed.

I swear to god, though, if I ever come to power, I don't like to hurt people, but the guys who run this place? They'll be shot. In the balls. With a flamethrower.

I swear to god, though, if I ever come to power, I don't like to hurt people, but the guys who run this place? They'll be shot. In the balls. With a flamethrower.

You'd have to include the owner who doesn't run it but fully supports it. That and all his politician friends since they protect his ass for $$.

Holy fuck. I only found this thread just now & read the article.

I've heard & been disgusted about these "schools" before, but this article gave the word "chilling" a whole new meaning.

I wasn't much trouble as a teenager, but hell, if my parents had sent me to some thing like this, I'm absolutely positive I would have gone over the edge in no time.

And to read that some parents send their kids there because they're *gasp* smoking pot or because a 17-year-old honor student on her way to Harvard has an "unsuitable boyfriend"!?!
Seriously, words fail me. Holy fuck.

My God... It sounds so much like a horror movie you can hardly believe it's real. Can't they appeal to the International Court of Human Rights or anything?

Those things they create aren't children, they're machine-like results of a cruel psychiatric experiment. I mean, I hate teenagers but I wouldn't wish that on anyone short of rapists and murderers.

Seriously, this is right out of Orwell's 1984, almost word for word. They just abuse you until you break down completely. Then rebuild you in such a way that you thank them for "saving you". I can't believe that this was made legal. Surely they can't keep you there once you're 18 or over?

Fine. I retract my previous statement as well. Things like this happening make me very angry, and I have very little empathy for those that support it, even if mistakenly informed.

Perhaps before resorting to mudslinging, you could read what was said after. To find out if (like I did) they perhaps discovered that they were mistaken. I absolutely abhor any use of physical violence on children, or prolonged use of isolation. I also happen to be vehemently opposed to suspension or expulsion, particularly of at-risk students since it does not address their deeper issues.

Holy fuck. I only found this thread just now & read the article.

I've heard & been disgusted about these "schools" before, but this article gave the word "chilling" a whole new meaning.

I wasn't much trouble as a teenager, but hell, if my parents had sent me to some thing like this, I'm absolutely positive I would have gone over the edge in no time.

And to read that some parents send their kids there because they're *gasp* smoking pot or because a 17-year-old honor student on her way to Harvard has an "unsuitable boyfriend"!?!
Seriously, words fail me. Holy fuck.

I honestly find it more than a little surprising that parents are obviously allowed to do that. Virtually signing their children over to an institution like that, which in effect is not regulated by any educational authority... it scares me.

I've been a difficult and deeply depressed teenager, and I pulled a lot of crap in my time. But that place... words fail me...
If parents don't want to have to deal with their kids, why do they have them in the first place?

Seriously, this is right out of Orwell's 1984, almost word for word. They just abuse you until you break down completely. Then rebuild you in such a way that you thank them for "saving you". I can't believe that this was made legal. Surely they can't keep you there once you're 18 or over?

They don't. They give you the option to leave and half the price of a ticket out of there. That way, they're covered. But if they don't deem you suitable by then, chances are, they've poisoned the parents against the kids to the point that they won't let you come back.

As to why it was made legal, it was because the greatest religion in the USA was behind it. Money. Lots of it. Parents wanted to pick the easiest and simplest way of making sure that their domain was made supreme with the least effort. That meant paying gobs of cash for something like this.

They don't. They give you the option to leave and half the price of a ticket out of there. That way, they're covered.
That's actually wrong - they give you your ticket for the flight back:

The day she turned 18, Tranquility would be obliged to hand over $50 and the return half of her air ticket if she wanted to leave.

(I misunderstood it in the same way you did at first).

WTF ..somebody sent a kid to this shithole for being anorexic???Anyone else feel that the kids can sue the parents???

WTF ..somebody sent a kid to this shithole for being anorexic???Anyone else feel that the kids can sue the parents???

Can? I think they have to... as a moral obligation to the other kids, who might get sent there in the future...

That people seriously think that kind of stuff is not merely unharmful, but beneficial, to kids is the worst thing of all. How can all that stuff mentioned actually help kids, aside from turning them into robots sprouting praise for the program? Propaganda videos? "Inspirational" music?

Let's see here;
1. They don't beat kids, they restrain them
2. The kids don't have to go to Observation, maybe if they weren't such little screw-ups
3. The parents are paying $40,000 a year for this program, I'm pretty sure that guarantees the children are messed up beyond belief.

This is the last resort, the parents have tried everything else.
Great program, way too expensive though (Have you seen the photos? The place looks pretty dull for Harvard prices)

3. The parents are paying $40,000 a year for this program, I'm pretty sure that guarantees the children are messed up beyond belief.

Yes, because they obviously have incredibly stupid parents :rolleyes:

This is just really, really creepy because the kids who are sent there go through loads of abuse and then come out spouting about how great the place is, and these are supposed to be rebellious teens. Has anyone ever read Anthony Horowitz's Point Blanc? Teenagers with rich parents got sent to a correctional school which was extremely successful because they imprisoned the students and replaced them with clones. I wonder what they do to these teenagers, when they go to a prison to get abused and then say they deserved to be there and that it changed their lives...

Let's see here;
1. They don't beat kids, they restrain them
2. The kids don't have to go to Observation, maybe if they weren't such little screw-ups
3. The parents are paying $40,000 a year for this program, I'm pretty sure that guarantees the children are messed up beyond belief.

This is the last resort, the parents have tried everything else.
Great program, way too expensive though (Have you seen the photos? The place looks pretty dull for Harvard prices)

1. Restraint is OK. In certain situations. Laying someone on their face for over a year is abuse.

2. I do admit these kids have problems, but seriously, nobody, not even Hitler, should have to go through that. (Actually, maybe Hitler, but that's beside the point.)

3. Or that the parents are morons.

Let's see here;
1. They don't beat kids, they restrain them
2. The kids don't have to go to Observation, maybe if they weren't such little screw-ups
3. The parents are paying $40,000 a year for this program, I'm pretty sure that guarantees the children are messed up beyond belief.

This is the last resort, the parents have tried everything else.
Great program, way too expensive though (Have you seen the photos? The place looks pretty dull for Harvard prices)


Once, on prac, I got taught how to restrain kids. You don't do it the way described in these articles.
'Cause looking out of a window is really screwing up.
The parents are paying $40, 000 a year because they don't want kids that think for themselves. And the ones who are screwups, the parents don't actually want to deal with the issues.


Did you read any of the articles? I don't think a child deserves to be sent to a place like this because they don't want to go to college, or they're dating a person mum and dad think is unsuitable.

Has anybody thought about the charismatic skills gained from this program?
The kids learn to be leaders, they have to be leaders over the newer recruits or they don't advance in the levels. What better motivation than - if you don't, you don't go home any time soon.

It would seem such skills would pay off later, say as manager of a company.

Has anybody thought about the charismatic skills gained from this program?
The kids learn to be leaders, they have to be leaders over the newer recruits or they don't advance in the levels. What better motivation than - if you don't, you don't go home any time soon.

It would seem such skills would pay off later, say as manager of a company.

You can learn charisma WITHOUT being abused.

Has anybody thought about the charismatic skills gained from this program?
The kids learn to be leaders, they have to be leaders over the newer recruits or they don't advance in the levels.

Yay! They learn to be charismatic by being "restrained" and having their will broken and their mind brainwashed! That really builds self esteem and charisma.

What better motivation than - if you don't, you don't go home any time soon.

It would seem such skills would pay off later, say as manager of a company.

Just because it's good motivation doesn't mean it's a good thing. Threatening to execute them would probably be even better motivation. :rolleyes:

I still see it as a good program, I can see it correcting a lot of fuckheads.

I still see it as a good program, I can see it correcting a lot of fuckheads.

Let's say that YOU were forced to lay face down for over a year. STILL like it?

Drugs feature high among reasons for choosing Tranquility, although addicts who need detox are not accepted. Running away from home, sleeping around, or being expelled from school are also typical. Some kids have been in trouble with the police. Others had been in court, where their parents persuaded the judge to let them send their child to Tranquility, rather than issue his own punishment. Other students were sent here for wearing inappropriate clothes, using bad language, or hanging around with the wrong sort of friends.

Bad language? Inappropriate clothes? OH NOEZ! Yeah, these people are really going to turn out to be homeless people on the minimum wage, or drug addicts and serial killers. Especially when they have parents wealthy enough to send them to this place. A lot of teenagers try drugs and alcohol etcetera. Not many turn out to be "fuckheads", especially with a priviledged upbringing. And regardless, the ends do not justify the means in this situation.

I still see it as a good program, I can see it correcting a lot of fuckheads.

Oh yes, anorexic girls need to be derided about their body. And of course a child who says, I'm going to go out with Jack, Mummy and you can't stop me. needs to be corrected.

Giving kids PTSD is not correcting them.

When I read the initial article (the first page anyway) I thought it was a good program. Then I got, to use your terminology, corrected. Do some research about this facility. Start with the other links in this thread.

Let's say that YOU were forced to lay face down for over a year. STILL like it?

You see, I wouldn't be stupid enough to go to Observation.
It's called follow the rules.
Useful life skill.

You see, I wouldn't be stupid enough to go to Observation.
It's called follow the rules.
Useful life skill.

Fair enough. After all, blindly following illegal orders is always a useful skill. It worked for the German soldiers in the 1940s.

Oh, wait...

You see, I wouldn't be stupid enough to go to Observation.
It's called follow the rules.
Useful life skill.

So you ain't planning on looking out windows, or keeping secrets would you?

You see, I wouldn't be stupid enough to go to Observation.
It's called follow the rules.
Useful life skill.

And those who do not follow the rules?

These are misguided kids we're talking about.

So you force them to be 'rule followers'
It's really a win-win situation here.

So you force them to be 'rule followers'
It's really a win-win situation here.

Yes, of course it's a good thing to give them Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Kievan-Prussia
Do these Jamaican fuckers have an email address? Let's fuck them up.

EDIT: Got 'em.

director@tranquilitybay.org
admissions@tranquilitybay.org
hrd@tranquilitybay.org
Just think how terrible it would be for these adresses to be found by spam bots... now it is illegal to deliberatly hand them over in the object of them recieving spam... but hey nowt to say we can't all complain... and post the addresses on the net a few times :)

So you force them to be 'rule followers'
It's really a win-win situation here.
Sounds like you're volenteering to try.

So we'll take you, against your will, to a place that you don't know, with no contact to your loved ones. We'll make rules and levels and if we don't THINK you're following along, we'll knock you flat on your ass.

And we won't let you go, not for a number of years.

Ready?

Sounds like you're volenteering to try.

So we'll take you, against your will, to a place that you don't know, with no contact to your loved ones. We'll make rules and levels and if we don't THINK you're following along, we'll knock you flat on your ass.

And we won't let you go, not for a number of years.

Ready?

Not to mention, reading your mail and refusing you medical assistance.

And we have justification, you did already use offensive language. On this very thread.

Can't deal with your kids? Send 'em to a cult brainwashing facility! Brilliant. Seriously, most weird-ass cults aren't this strict. I'm sure some other kinds of abuse are going on behind the scenes that haven't been revealed yet. The people running this facility need some discipline themselves. The parents irresponsible enough to send their kids there need to be sterilized with red-hot iron implements and subjected to the same treatment they chose for their kids.