NationStates Jolt Archive

Alright all you religious people of all stripes. I need you guys to fill me in on something, not because I'm poking fun at you, but because I'm genuinely confused.

If God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent, and created, through His/Her/It's Divine Will the Universe, then how did God come into existance? Was there some sort of spiritual "big bang" in which all the latent spiritual energy collapsed on itself into this one being?

Just so noone gets offended, here, I'm just trying to clarify a sticky point of theology, not flaming anyone's religious (or non-religious as the case may be) views.

Always was, always will be outside and inside our universe and all we see. He is timeless.

You're about to recieve an arguement which basically means "God is outside logic". They should just say that.

Just clarifying here....So God is a Paradox? How does it exist in relation to our dimensions?

Always was, always will be outside and inside our universe and all we see. He is timeless.

See what I mean?

You're about to recieve an arguement which basically means "God is outside logic". They should just say that.

Theology is the exact opposite of logic, my friend :p

Only from such a sick and twisted place as amsterdam could a being like God spring into existance.

Hahahaha

Just as atheists have no proof about the nonexistance of God, we have no proof of the existance of God.

Either way, before the Big Bang, what was there?

Before God, what was there?

Before the begginning, what was there?

If our human minds need the comfort of knowing that everything, from God to plants to humans to the universe itself, then how can we expand our minds further beyond our horizons to think more outside the box??

I'm just ranting a bit.

That's what I'm trying to do....expand my horizons.

That's what I'm trying to do....expand my horizons.
Yes well no one knows the answer. Hence we're kinda waiting around, twindling our thumbs and waiting for the scientists to use their big fancy words on us. :)

Yes well no one knows the answer. Hence we're kinda waiting around, twindling our thumbs and waiting for the scientists to use their big fancy words on us. :)

OH NO! My poor brain can't take more than 4 syllables at at time! SAVE ME!

Either way, before the Big Bang, what was there?

Well, presumably, time was created at the same time as the universe and the other three dimensions, so "Before the Big Bang" wouldn't exist.

He was made in China by the Sony Corp. Just like everything else

I love cheese.

Remember kids, something as complex as the universe needs an even more complex creator, while something as complex as the creator doesn't, because, well, umm, he's all magical and stuff.

He was made in China by the Sony Corp. Just like everything else

Actually it's a little known fun fact that China and Sony Corp itself was actually produced by Yamaha in Japan XD

That's what I'm trying to do....expand my horizons.

Nice way to think of this.....for a human.

God is a person.
He created the 'universe' which is like turning on a computer.
God is like someone running Sim city (except its all Sims in one!) and can watch what we do and how we do it, and can also screw with us as needed.

:D

Nice way to think of this.....for a human.

God is a person.
He created the 'universe' which is like turning on a computer.
God is like someone running Sim city (except its all Sims in one!) and can watch what we do and how we do it, and can also screw with us as needed.

:D

But that's getting into predestination.......and that's SCAAARRRY. I <3 my free will too much to volutarily dismiss it.

*eep!*

Remember kids, something as complex as the universe needs an even more complex creator, while something as complex as the creator doesn't, because, well, umm, he's all magical and stuff.

Love that sense of thinking. :P

But that's getting into predestination.......and that's SCAAARRRY. I <3 my free will too much to volutarily dismiss it.

*eep!*

Don't worry, God never actually plays the game, or even enters the house with the computer really, so as not to mess with free wil.

But that's getting into predestination.......and that's SCAAARRRY. I <3 my free will too much to volutarily dismiss it.

*eep!*

Na...you either respawn or go to the good place or the bad place (God's city or Satan's city!) XD Then at the end of the game they will have a massive war!

Or you could think Buddist.....everyone dies and is respawned. :P

Alright all you religious people of all stripes. I need you guys to fill me in on something, not because I'm poking fun at you, but because I'm genuinely confused.

If God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent, and created, through His/Her/It's Divine Will the Universe, then how did God come into existance? Was there some sort of spiritual "big bang" in which all the latent spiritual energy collapsed on itself into this one being?

Just so noone gets offended, here, I'm just trying to clarify a sticky point of theology, not flaming anyone's religious (or non-religious as the case may be) views.

God came from Des Moines. He was brought up there by a loving family, but then moved to New York, where he hangs round bars with louche, rather effiminate fellows, and makes comments such as "one finds Des Moines a rather nice place to be FROM, if you take my meaning", to much hilarity.

Love that sense of thinking. :P

I imagine.

Na...you either respawn or go to the good place or the bad place (God's city or Satan's city!) XD Then at the end of the game they will have a massive war!

Gotta wonder why Satan is allowed to play, you'd think he'd be grounded...or at least smited.

I imagine.



Gotta wonder why Satan is allowed to play, you'd think he'd be grounded...or at least smited.

Satan wanted to make things interesting, besides God NEEDS Satan. :P

Na...you either respawn or go to the good place or the bad place (God's city or Satan's city!) XD Then at the end of the game they will have a massive war!

Or you could think Buddist.....everyone dies and is respawned. :P

but then people still don't have free will, which sucks.

That's one of the pseudo-paradoxes. The argument for the existence of God as a first cause is based on the principle of cause and effect, right? In otherwords, everything that happens needs a cause, which in turn needs a cause, etc, until we get to what the Greeks called the 'uncaused cause'. Development in the understanding of the universe has allowed time itself to be described as a dimension similar to space (ie., we're moving through it, albeit in a manner dissimilar to that of space).
Since space and the concept of that dimension is derived from the creative force of the Big Bang (or the pre-Big Bang), time as well is a created thing similar to space (as Stephen Hawking has consistently reminded us). It's harder to grasp since we can't perceive time in the same way that we perceive space so that it seems to be 'uncreated' and not a dimension.
So, if that particular dimension is as well created, its rules of 'cause and effect' cannot be applied logically to jurisdictions which they don't apply in.

Satan wanted to make things interesting, besides God NEEDS Satan. :P

Oh? Why is that?

Satan wanted to make things interesting, besides God NEEDS Satan. :P

Yes, god's Satan's bitch, and needs him for his daily dose of S&M sex.

So, if that particular dimension is as well created, its rules of 'cause and effect' cannot be applied logically to jurisdictions which they don't apply in.

Again, I'm seeing the words "logic" "cannot" and "be applied".

Yes, god's Satan's bitch, and needs him for his daily dose of S&M sex.

...That explains so much...

Just as atheists have no proof about the nonexistance of God, we have no proof of the existance of God.
There's no need to disprove the unproven.


Either way, before the Big Bang, what was there?
The universe. It necessarily ontologically must be.


Before God, what was there?
There is no god.


Before the begginning, what was there?
Beginning of time? The universe.

Yes, god's Satan's bitch, and needs him for his daily dose of S&M sex.

God's Satan's bitch O.O!? God IS Satan's bitch? :o

Well, presumably, time was created at the same time as the universe and the other three dimensions, so "Before the Big Bang" wouldn't exist.

Yes. Because time can only be defined in terms of the other three dimensions. Unless you're fundamentally religious. In which case you may believe that time is a universal constant...unfortunately Einstein and some other physicists have disproved that.
If anyone out there doesn't believe that time cannot exist without space (in terms of physical dimensions) then picture this: two infinitely small spheres sit motionless in an infinitely large area with light coming from every direction. How can an observer (who cannot move or do anything other than observe - hence 'observer') prove that time is passing? Now, I'm not suggesting that these were the conditions prior to the 'dawn of time', but its a pretty good analogy. I picked it up from a book, The Arrow of Time, by the way.

God's Satan's bitch O.O!? God IS Satan's bitch? :o

yes, and you aren't nearly great enough to be worshipped as Satan yet. :p

"God" was created by "man" so that "man" could invent answers to questions that "man" is otherwise to stupid or lazy to answer for himself. Now that's logic.

:cool:

Where Did God Come From?

Uranus

yes, and you aren't nearly great enough to be worshipped as Satan yet. :p

*evil voice as ultra-mega-death metal plays*

BOW DOWN! BOW DOWN! BOW DOWN! BURN IN....HEAVEN! BURN IN HEAVEN! BOW DOWN! BOW DOWN!

---------------
How's that. :P

*evil voice as ultra-mega-death metal plays*

BOW DOWN! BOW DOWN! BOW DOWN! BURN IN....HEAVEN! BURN IN HEAVEN! BOW DOWN! BOW DOWN!

---------------
How's that. :P

nope. you fail at being satan. At least you are a god. Be content.

nope. you fail at being satan. At least you are a god. Be content.

Watch Morel Orel. On Adult Swim.

XD
God....for the contemporary innocent child.

Watch Morel Orel. On Adult Swim.

XD
God....for the contemporary innocent child.

Eut and I got rid of her innocence remember? (mostly Eut >_>)

Always was, always will be outside and inside our universe and all we see. He is timeless.

This argument is total rubbish, if your concept of God is the Judeo-Christian one.

Universe: "everything that exists, everywhere."

Therefore, if God is not part of the universe, it does not exist. If God IS part of the universe, it must have been created.

This argument is total rubbish, if your concept of God is the Judeo-Christian one.

Universe: "everything that exists, everywhere."

Therefore, if God is not part of the universe, it does not exist. If God IS part of the universe, it must have been created.

"Well, since god is outside the universe, and thus outside logic, he can exist without being part of the universe because he can."

"Well, since god is outside the universe, and thus outside logic, he can exist without being part of the universe because he can."

Actually the Christain view is right about it....I just put it in another way. XD

So in other words, all you are doing is trolling, and your opening point is BS.

Perhaps someday, you will find the answers you seek, but might not enjoy them. :p

It's not the opposite just...unaquainted, really.

It's not the opposite just...unaquainted, really.
How so?

How so?

It could care less what the logical conclusion is, but it's willing to attempt logic if it supports it.

It could care less what the logical conclusion is, but it's willing to attempt logic if it supports it.

Whatever can be explained logically functions on a scientific principle. >.>

No written scriptures have released any evidence of God's origin. Only scriptures of God's actions toward ancient Earth. This is why I'm beginning to not believe this Christianity nonsense.

No written scriptures have released any evidence of God's origin. Only scriptures of God's actions toward ancient Earth. This is why I'm beginning to not believe this Christianity nonsense.

Who would ask him where he came from anyways and isn't it covered in the bible in the first place?

Who would ask him where he came from anyways and isn't it covered in the bible in the first place?

Yeah...Bible? Not so dependable, considering it's only support is itself...

Whatever can be explained logically functions on a scientific principle. >.>

...Point being, the logical conclusion would be to disregard this alleged God, considering there's no reason to consider him as existing, much less something to worship. However, when they can make a psuedo-logical conclusion that would support his existence, they're all for it.

...Point being, the logical conclusion would be to disregard this alleged God, considering there's no reason to consider him as existing, much less something to worship. However, when they can make a psuedo-logical conclusion that would support his existence, they're all for it.

Scientists believe there is like a 61% chance God exists. :P

Just on the thought of God and logic: we were discussing this in my english class at the beginning when we were going through logic:

Using circular logic in traditional debates makes the user look stupid.
Using circular logic in a religious debate is expected, and is just about the only place circular logic works. Because for all our understanding, God is circular. Well, technically God is more like a spiral, but a spiral that some how connects back again to the base while never ending. That's a bit hard to imagine, and I've never heard anyone use spiral logic, so circular is just a lot easier when trying to describe God or argue for Him... even though there is of course no way to prove a point by going in circles.

Sorry for that rant...

If God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent, and created,

You are confused. Never was "created". Is now, always was, and always will be.

The Machine.

Scientists believe there is like a 61% chance God exists. :P

Riiight...And how did they come up with this number? Scientists are people too, they can get messed with by religion like evryone else.

Theology is the exact opposite of logic, my friend :p

Logic is not always the answer to human emotions or actions Mr. Spock. :eek:

One might say emotions are the opposite of logic..

or that could just be 10:00 me trying to be philosophical....

One might say emotions are the opposite of logic..

or that could just be 10:00 me trying to be philosophical....

Yay EST?

Yay EST?

Boo EST, Pacific is SO much better.

Boo EST, Pacific is SO much better.

Feh! We've got important-er cities (yes, I mean U.S. and Canada. So feh. :p)
You guys have California...and earthquakes, and are probably gonna be split apart by a huge seismic activity.

Feh! We've got important-er cities (yes, I mean U.S. and Canada. So feh. :p)
You guys have California...and earthquakes, and are probably gonna be split apart by a huge seismic activity.

We've got better weather. It beats all.

We've got better weather. It beats all.

Lies. Specifically round the great lakes, we've got awesome weather, and really, besides what it does to traffic, Nor'easters are cool. Snowball wars to tell your grandkids about.

Lies. Specifically round the great lakes, we've got awesome weather, and really, besides what it does to traffic, Nor'easters are cool. Snowball wars to tell your grandkids about.

LOL Except the snow gets old fast and snowball wars don't go good usually.

Not going to bother reading the entire thread,




God (in the Apostolic Christian understanding of him) is not a created being.
All created things come from him but he himself is not created. Otherwise the Apostle Peter(I think , its in the Bible though) would be wrong when saying God is unchanging. Since all created thing exist in time change, God must be outside of time and thus outside of what we precieve to be created. God has always been because God made time itself. It really requires some faith so if you don't have the faith to beleive it then well I guess you won't beleive it . You can get a better explanation of this concept in Augustine's Confesssions ( Its a whole chapter near the end ).

*snip*

Oooh...This is a new one. Logic doesn't apply because he doesn't exist...interesting...

LOL Except the snow gets old fast and snowball wars don't go good usually.

Quiet you. *hmph*

Not going to bother reading the entire thread,

Short thread. If you can't read it, your first post doesn't count. :) Welcome to NS General forum. :fluffle:

Oooh...This is a new one. Logic doesn't apply because he doesn't exist...interesting...

Logic never applies to human beings Mr. Spock. You know it is logical for human to have emotions and emotions are not logical. :rolleyes:

Logic never applies to human beings Mr. Spock. You know it is logical for human to have emotions and emotions are not logical. :rolleyes:

Uh-huh...Soooo...When you start talking to me...we might go somewhere...

So in other words, all you are doing is trolling, and your opening point is BS.

Perhaps someday, you will find the answers you seek, but might not enjoy them. :p

I resent that! I actually wanted to know where theology stands on this issue. Not that I'm much better off now than I was then, but hey, I tried! That statement to which you refer is a factual truth.....according to theology, God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent, and incomprehensible to mortal minds. Logic is a mortal concept. Ergo, theology defies logic. I just wanted to know how theology gried to explained that particular dilemma. Thats all.

Not going to bother reading the entire thread,




God (in the Apostolic Christian understanding of him) is not a created being.
All created things come from him but he himself is not created. Otherwise the Apostle Peter(I think , its in the Bible though) would be wrong when saying God is unchanging. Since all created thing exist in time change, God must be outside of time and thus outside of what we precieve to be created. God has always been because God made time itself. It really requires some faith so if you don't have the faith to beleive it then well I guess you won't beleive it . You can get a better explanation of this concept in Augustine's Confesssions ( Its a whole chapter near the end ).

Thank you very much. That explained my question exactly! YAY!

Maybe God has a God. But then who's the God of God's God?

I vote that none of us exist at all. Never did. Never will.

God came from Mary's womb, of course. :p

Kinda funny that some 12 year old, 2000 years ago, pissed out what Christians believe was our god.

Ah, the obsession with creation. Open your mind to the possibility that not everything must be created, that it can simply exist, that it always has. I do not believe in gods, however. There is no proof for or against them.

We don't exist... we're in the MATRIX!!!

I resent that! I actually wanted to know where theology stands on this issue. Not that I'm much better off now than I was then, but hey, I tried! That statement to which you refer is a factual truth.....according to theology, God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent, and incomprehensible to mortal minds. Logic is a mortal concept. Ergo, theology defies logic. I just wanted to know how theology gried to explained that particular dilemma. Thats all.
Fair enough. I retract my offensive comment. :)

I'm not much of a believer, but as I see it, if the universe is infinite in all the directions of the 3 dimensions that we can directly perceive (which it may or may not be), then logically the 4th dimension, spacetime, would also be infinite in all its directions (past and future). So, no matter how far back you go, you never reach the beginning, and no matter how far forward you go, you don't reach the end. The universe did, after all, exist before the Big Bang (just very small, dense, and hot) and if we're following the Law of Conservation of Matter, then we couldn't have gone from nothing to something. So I don't see any reason why a deity couldn't have existed forever, assuming that the universe is infinite.

I'm not much of a believer, but as I see it, if the universe is infinite in all the directions of the 3 dimensions that we can directly perceive (which it may or may not be), then logically the 4th dimension, spacetime, would also be infinite in all its directions (past and future). So, no matter how far back you go, you never reach the beginning, and no matter how far forward you go, you don't reach the end. The universe did, after all, exist before the Big Bang (just very small, dense, and hot) and if we're following the Law of Conservation of Matter, then we couldn't have gone from nothing to something. So I don't see any reason why a deity couldn't have existed forever, assuming that the universe is infinite.

...Generally, that goes in reverse, if a deity could have existed forever, why not matter?

God is a practical joke that got out of hand.

God is a practical joke that got out of hand.

I have a theory that a couple of guys VERY high on shrooms wrote the bible in a cave.

Did shrooms grow where the bible was written?

I have a theory that a couple of guys VERY high on shrooms wrote the bible in a cave.

...That too explains a lot...Maybe there's something in that wine they have them drink...or the bread...

Did shrooms grow where the bible was written?

Apparently they're very common in the Middle East, and they have prophetical properties to them...

...Generally, that goes in reverse, if a deity could have existed forever, why not matter?
I don't see why not either. God doesn't necessarily mean "creator of everything".

Of course, the important question is "Does it make that much of a difference if there is one or isn't?"

I don't see why not either. God doesn't necessarily mean "creator of everything".

Of course, the important question is "Does it make that much of a difference if there is one or isn't?"

Well, he certainly doesn't do much. And methinks he needs a Bible: 2nd edition or something.

Well, he certainly doesn't do much. And methinks he needs a Bible: 2nd edition or something.
Bible 2: Jesus Returns (again)?

Something with more explosions to scare the shit out of more people too. Sodom and Gomorrah were alright, but fire and brimstone? According to the Bible, we have better explosives than God does (although he can still beat us on the whole "screwing up the environment" thing with his floods).

Bible 2: Jesus Returns (again)?

Something with more explosions to scare the shit out of more people too. Sodom and Gomorrah were alright, but fire and brimstone? According to the Bible, we have better explosives than God does (although he can still beat us on the whole "screwing up the environment" thing with his floods).

Well he got it done fast, but we're killing ourselves at the same time. Let see God pull that off, eh?

oh dear oh dear.
god is a concept rather than an actual entity. god is the lazy explanation for "the things i dont understand" and the concept of religion and the afterlife is a sop for those too emotionally and mentally weak to deal with the sad fact that after you die there is no joyous reunion with your lost loved ones/eternal bliss etc. you. just. die.

Alright all you religious people of all stripes. I need you guys to fill me in on something, not because I'm poking fun at you, but because I'm genuinely confused.

If God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent, and created, through His/Her/It's Divine Will the Universe, then how did God come into existance? Was there some sort of spiritual "big bang" in which all the latent spiritual energy collapsed on itself into this one being?

Just so noone gets offended, here, I'm just trying to clarify a sticky point of theology, not flaming anyone's religious (or non-religious as the case may be) views.
Oh, jeez, not another one of these. I see you're relatively new to this forum, so you probably don't know of the countless threads that have been started around this topic. You will learn, my son, you will learn...

Well he got it done fast, but we're killing ourselves at the same time. Let see God pull that off, eh?
Not just that, but God's flood seemed to have gone away pretty quickly. Ours is supposed to be a little more permanent.

If God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent, and created, through His/Her/It's Divine Will the Universe, then how did God come into existance? Was there some sort of spiritual "big bang" in which all the latent spiritual energy collapsed on itself into this one being?


God was created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Gotta wonder why Satan is allowed to play, you'd think he'd be grounded...or at least smited.

Smote?

Some ancient dude was thinking "I need some way to get all the other guys in my tribe to do what I tell them.... I know I'll create the concept of a omnipotent creator, I'll call him 'God'. I can use him to expalin all the stuff I can't, making me look wise, and I can get all the members of my tribe to follow my will by saying 'God will's it'.

If it works out I can probably even get them to support me as his official spokesman and dispenser of his laws. I'll never have to work again.

I think I'll call myself a 'priest'......"

I am God.

Smote?


Smitten?

God was created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Ramen brother.

You're about to recieve an arguement which basically means "God is outside logic". They should just say that.To be fair, there is no logical reason why everything should have a beginning and/or end.
It's in conflict with a causally closed physical universe though. (But that goes for anything remotely spiritual, including free will.)

God came from Camden, New Jersey. He grew up poor and in the ghetto. When his father died, he took a job hauling trash so he could support his mother.

After his mother died, he felt alone. So he started a cult and smoking chronic. The cult took off and all the money that was coming in made him a frugal indesent man.

He now spends his time traveling the world frachising Starbucks stores.

"HAHAHA WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?!?!?" - He's in Budapest buying yo momma a mumu.

This isn't an issue since god isn't omnipotent.
Don't start yelling at me, just do this little mindgame (maybe you already know it)

See, suppose god is omnipotent, then he could make anything, literally anything.
Now, suppose you're in a situation, you VS god. You have to prove he isn't omnipotent, you can ask him anything.
You ask him to make an object that is so heavy that it can never leave it's place, it can not be moved or lifted and will always exist.
If god is omnipotent, this shouldn't be too hard for him.
Now ask him to move the object.
See, is he moves it, he failed in the first task and isn't omnipotent, if he doesn't move it, he can't do everything and isn't omnipotent.

About omnipresent.
Ask god to make something that will outlast him. If he is omnipotent he can do this, but then he wouldn't be omnipresent.

So if there is a god, he is neither omnipotent nor omnipresent.

Alright all you religious people of all stripes. I need you guys to fill me in on something, not because I'm poking fun at you, but because I'm genuinely confused.

If God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent, and created, through His/Her/It's Divine Will the Universe, then how did God come into existance? Was there some sort of spiritual "big bang" in which all the latent spiritual energy collapsed on itself into this one being?

Just so noone gets offended, here, I'm just trying to clarify a sticky point of theology, not flaming anyone's religious (or non-religious as the case may be) views.
Your question is posed from an ideology that expects contingency for everything that is. God is not considered to be a part of contingent existence. Contingent existence is effect following cause. God is more like an effect without cause, although of course 'effect' is not the proper term then.

Your question is posed from an ideology that expects contingency for everything that is. God is not considered to be a part of contingent existence. Contingent existence is effect following cause. God is more like an effect without cause, although of course 'effect' is not the proper term then.

Ah yes, you were the one that gave me that "no rules apply to the supernatural" line, right? Thanks.

Oh sheesh,,Religion mankinds feeble attempt to define the undefinable, and put in terms we can understand that which we being physical beings can not comprehend. Guess we will all find out when our days come to an end and I strongly suspect that we are all in for one mind blower of a suprise.

Having been in science for decades and buying the periodic table, nanotechnology and the like, I find faith in God and the Bible a piece of cake! It's good to know He's there and actively involved. I've been on both sides of the God picture and the faith side makes life so much better!!!!

You're about to recieve an arguement which basically means "God is outside logic". They should just say that.
Fellow Michiganian, humanity can merely not fathom God. He is incomprehendable. We cannot even comprehend the idea of infinity, let alone visualize 1 000 000 000 million people. We just go, "Wow! that's a lot!" and leave it at that. Unless of course you're willing to argue your mind can actually visualize the space this universe exists in, or that you can visualize 1 000 000 000 people - in which case, I'll challenge you to give me detailed descriptions of all of their facial features - then we are essentially arguing the same arguement.

Just wait until humanity creates conscience beings capable of their own will. Then we'll feel God feels. In the mean time, I'll be looking for that appel tree in the garden of Eden, so that I can aquire more of the knowledge required to be godlike.

Technically if god is a 4 dimentional character, he would be in this universe forever. Though this does not mean we cannot cage god, but we whould have to do it in such a fashion that the cage has also been here for all of eternity.

Fellow Michiganian, humanity can merely not fathom God. He is incomprehendable. We cannot even comprehend the idea of infinity, let alone visualize 1 000 000 000 million people. We just go, "Wow! that's a lot!" and leave it at that. Unless of course you're willing to argue your mind can actually visualize the space this universe exists in, or that you can visualize 1 000 000 000 people - in which case, I'll challenge you to give me detailed descriptions of all of their facial features - then we are essentially arguing the same arguement.

Just wait until humanity creates conscience beings capable of their own will. Then we'll feel God feels. In the mean time, I'll be looking for that appel tree in the garden of Eden, so that I can aquire more of the knowledge required to be godlike.

So....I'll classify this under "Cannot comprehend, so logic doesn't apply", kay?
To visualize something it kinda has to be visible.

So....I'll classify this under "Cannot comprehend, so logic doesn't apply", kay?
To visualize something it kinda has to be visible.
In Exodus, God revealed Himself to Moses. It was a very bright light or something along those lines.
I agree. File it under "Cannot Comprehend", but I wouldn't go as far as to say "Logic Not Applicable". I feel we gots a long ways to go yet before we can rule that out. Or are those two mutually exclusive? Anyhow, upon death, we'll know the answer.

Technically if god is a 4 dimentional character, he would be in this universe forever. Though this does not mean we cannot cage god, but we whould have to do it in such a fashion that the cage has also been here for all of eternity.
I think god is a machine created by 12-dimensional beings to calculate their taxes or something. We're merely residuals of the program, like in a division. In this case god would be outside an infinite number of 4-dimensional universes like ours, and in all places at the same time. This is required to work out all the deductions in 12-dimensional space.

Ah yes, you were the one that gave me that "no rules apply to the supernatural" line, right? Thanks.
Probably. But then, what rules must apply to something that is unknowable?

Probably. But then, what rules must apply to something that is unknowable?

I dunno, but people sure like to say a lot based on the "unknowable".

God evolved from some lesser form of god.

my quick answer is that God is eternal -- he was not created, he simply always was and always will be.


God is not bound by the rules of chemistry, biology, physics, etc... because he is not solid, liquid or gas.

God does not require space to exist (not sure that i'm saying what I mean... crap).

Perhaps a more titillating aspect of God is how he relates to time... if we assume that he's eternal, but can exist without space... can time exist without space?

my quick answer is that God is eternal -- he was not created, he simply always was and always will be.

Fancy.

God is not bound by the rules of chemistry, biology, physics, etc... because he is not solid, liquid or gas.

Plasma?

God does not require space to exist (not sure that i'm saying what I mean... crap).

So he's like a photon then? Maybe Godons are the carrier of a 5th force...

Perhaps a more titillating aspect of God is how he relates to time... if we assume that he's eternal, but can exist without space... can time exist without space?

I'd imagine not...Nothing would be happening if it did, anyways.

Dave.

Alright all you religious people of all stripes. I need you guys to fill me in on something, not because I'm poking fun at you, but because I'm genuinely confused.

If God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent, and created, through His/Her/It's Divine Will the Universe, then how did God come into existance? Was there some sort of spiritual "big bang" in which all the latent spiritual energy collapsed on itself into this one being?

Just so noone gets offended, here, I'm just trying to clarify a sticky point of theology, not flaming anyone's religious (or non-religious as the case may be) views.
That's a damn good question! http://assets.jolt.co.uk/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif
It just shows how totally absurd the belief in a God who is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent actually is. :rolleyes:
What was before "God"? A more-than-omnipotent being who created God? It must have been more potent thatn "God" to be able to create "God" in the first place.
But wait... more than omnipotent? That's utterly ridiculous, isn't it?
So let's take the other option and say that all the stuff floating around before "God" just randomly evolved into a omnipotent being!
But wait again - Christians supporting *evolution*!? And not only the evolution of man, but even the evolution of an *omnipotent being*!? :eek: Can't have that!

What was before "God"?
"God".

"God".

And before that, there was the FSM. *nod*

He was made in China by the Sony Corp. Just like everything else

Cheers to that, best response I've ever heard! If you really want to know exactly how, ask a preist. If they've said it in Church 1,000 times, none of us were paying attention.;)

But then that's just me ranting a bit, you should see how bad I can get on the topic of belifs :)

And before that, there was the FSM. *nod*
There was pie. But that got old and stale.

And before that, there was the FSM. *nod*
You're good! You know one of His other names.

Well, to me from what most churches say when i ask the exact same question is that you must belive that God was just there. He was not created by anything because the question would forever continue on with "who created who" it is best just to assume that we are here now and just leave it at that, if humans were ment to know about the creation of things like the universe then it will come in time, for now it is best to just try and find a way to stop religions from creating fights almong one another :(

snip

hehe

is it possible for time or space to exist in the absence of the other?

is it possible for time or space to exist in the absence of the other?
Not as we know it. Only as "God" / FSM knows it, yes.

Alright all you religious people of all stripes. I need you guys to fill me in on something, not because I'm poking fun at you, but because I'm genuinely confused.

If God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent, and created, through His/Her/It's Divine Will the Universe, then how did God come into existance? Was there some sort of spiritual "big bang" in which all the latent spiritual energy collapsed on itself into this one being?

Just so noone gets offended, here, I'm just trying to clarify a sticky point of theology, not flaming anyone's religious (or non-religious as the case may be) views.

He was created in a jelly jar from a pickled pig's foot and a stray bacterial growth. Shortly after being born and becoming a devout catholic, he was thrown backward in a time-space vortex to the moment of the Big Bang. Bathed in the tremendous energies at the birth of the universe combined with his bizrre genetic structure, he became the being we call God.

*holds up a jar of pig's feet* Hungry? :)

hehe

is it possible for time or space to exist in the absence of the other?

Well, I imagine they could exist, but nothing would go on...Take the equation for speed, or rate of change, whatever. Space without time, the denominator is a zero, so if anything did anything, its speed would be undefined, and I dunno what that would do. Time without space, matter can't really exist because it takes up space, not to mention without space to move in speed would always be zero. I think...*shrug*

All this talk of God in the singular, I believe in the bible god said something like, "You will have no other gods before me" Does this imply that there is more than one god?

So Where Did God Come From?
God is a concept invented to explain another within a humanity that was at the time incapable of seeing what the original concept really was.

All living things can perceive the world around them on a level relative to their own complexity. Electrons fly around (sometimes in orbit), colliding into other things. Atoms, as constructed entities, fly around, collide into things, but also bond with each other and grand lattices of other atoms. Cells feed on things and exchange chemicals with their immediate surroundings. Simple organisms can do likewise, as well as move around in units of things similar to itself and leech off of larger things. Animals can see, communicate and identify smells, sounds, other animals, and even plan attack strategies.

Humans do exactly the same. But what they perceive is slightly different. Somewhere in its evolutionary process, humans became complex enough to analyse and control the thinking process. In doing so, a human is capable of analysing itself and identifying itself. And quite early on, it had this idea of itself as something independent of the body that hosts it.

What this perception is leads on to the notion of System, that we have only really recently begun to fully understand. Back then, all we knew was that there were two aspects to it; the construction and the thing that isn't the physical matter. We called this thing "Spirit".

And as living things, we began to analyse everything in the light of this Spirit thing, from animals and people to rivers, sky, thunder, all of the natural occurrances around them. It was only a matter of time before we turned our gaze onto nature itself, for it too is a sort of system.

To the early humans, this meant one thing. Bigger, abstract humans. Thus is God born; not as a sort of story, but as a simplification of the perception of reality. What's more, I don't think they're wrong. They're not fully developed, of course, but the similarity of reality to our own systemic construction is, as a human, inescapable to me.

The big mistake is assuming omnipotency, afterlife, divine justice or whatever solely on the basis of the truth that is Godliness. Such things are explanations people have thrown together as part of this simplification without realising to what it is really referring. While true in a sense, they are metaphorical truths.


Until recently, I thought this was a new idea. Turns out the Hindus have been believing it for thousands of years. Kudos to them, I say!

I think...*shrug*
Wait, if there is cesium, there's time! As defined by the SI-System (http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/current.html):
The second is the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the cesium 133 atom.

Yarr...

He was created in a jelly jar from a pickled pig's foot and a stray bacterial growth. Shortly after being born and becoming a devout catholic, he was thrown backward in a time-space vortex to the moment of the Big Bang. Bathed in the tremendous energies at the birth of the universe combined with his bizrre genetic structure, he became the being we call God.

*holds up a jar of pig's feet* Hungry? :)
Wouldn't he be atheist if there was no god? :eek:

gimme the jar!

Wait, if there is cesium, there's time! As defined by the SI-System (http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/current.html):
The second is the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the cesium 133 atom.

Yarr...

...Ummm...Wha?

Thus is God born; not as a sort of story, but as a simplification of the perception of reality. What's more, I don't think they're wrong. They're not fully developed, of course, but the similarity of reality to our own systemic construction is, as a human, inescapable to me.
I always thought that scientific expalinations were much more simpler than most creation myths.
Until recently, I thought this was a new idea. Turns out the Hindus have been believing it for thousands of years. Kudos to them, I say!
Religions have been there and done that with almost everything. Its their job.

...Ummm...Wha?
Its a Napoleonic thing. The vernacular term for it is "the metric system".

....where..did...God...come..from ?

Are you talking about Yog-Sothoth, Azathoth or Nyarlathotep ?

I guess you don't mean Shub-Niggurath or Eris, since those are both female.

Even though matter of fact both Yog and Shub are kinda genderless or inter-gender, and I don't really know about Azathoth.

Could you be a little more specifi....oh wait, I know..God came from the human language !


Do I win anything ?
.....................


p.p.p.p.p.ps: Irrelevant smiley attached: :eek:

I always thought that scientific expalinations were much more simpler than most creation myths.
Well yes, of course they are to us. But we've created and established a grand series of starting points within which the rest of reality as explained through science makes sense. Original humans didn't have that foothold to start from; all they knew was that they existed in some sense. To them, explanations of things as being the product of grand, aetherial humans would make as much sense, if not more so, as the world being the result of a grand explosion of matter and reformation into physical chunks called planets. And as humans, this was the explanation that came most readily to them.

Do I win anything?
No. (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=God&searchmode=none)
To them, explanations of things as being the product of grand, aetherial humans would make as much sense ...
I pretty much agree with you, both science and faith seek to explain why we exist.

This isn't an issue since god isn't omnipotent.
Don't start yelling at me, just do this little mindgame (maybe you already know it)

See, suppose god is omnipotent, then he could make anything, literally anything.
Now, suppose you're in a situation, you VS god. You have to prove he isn't omnipotent, you can ask him anything.
You ask him to make an object that is so heavy that it can never leave it's place, it can not be moved or lifted and will always exist.
If god is omnipotent, this shouldn't be too hard for him.
Now ask him to move the object.
See, is he moves it, he failed in the first task and isn't omnipotent, if he doesn't move it, he can't do everything and isn't omnipotent.

About omnipresent.
Ask god to make something that will outlast him. If he is omnipotent he can do this, but then he wouldn't be omnipresent.

So if there is a god, he is neither omnipotent nor omnipresent.

Actually, all that proves is that God is non-contradictory. The concept of a creator who can create something he cannot move or lift, when he created it in the first place, is contradictory.

On the other hand, he did create beings with free will, who can refuse to be moved or lifted, and since he will not force anyone to change their minds, they can just sit there and not interact with him. Of course, when they die, they find that is another name for Hell...

The origin of God, huh? Following some hinduist versions, this one, and our next 999,997 reincarnations in this same body and situation (after the ciclical destructions and recontructions of the Universe and our respective reincarnations in other bodies), will complete the day 1 of God's 51st birthday; this is, after all that time, God will be 51 years and a day old.

All this talk of God in the singular, I believe in the bible god said something like, "You will have no other gods before me" Does this imply that there is more than one god?


Judges 3:7
7 The Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD; they forgot the LORD their God and served the Baals and the Asherahs.

(pasted to show mention of the worship of "gods" Baal and Asherah.
--------------------

from 1 Kings chapter 18 (1 Kings 18:15-39)


15 Elijah said, "As the LORD Almighty lives, whom I serve, I will surely present myself to Ahab today."

Elijah on Mount Carmel

16 So Obadiah went to meet Ahab and told him, and Ahab went to meet Elijah. 17 When he saw Elijah, he said to him, "Is that you, you troubler of Israel?"
18 "I have not made trouble for Israel," Elijah replied. "But you and your father's family have. You have abandoned the LORD's commands and have followed the Baals. 19 Now summon the people from all over Israel to meet me on Mount Carmel. And bring the four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal and the four hundred prophets of Asherah, who eat at Jezebel's table."

20 So Ahab sent word throughout all Israel and assembled the prophets on Mount Carmel. 21 Elijah went before the people and said, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him."
But the people said nothing.

22 Then Elijah said to them, "I am the only one of the LORD's prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. 23 Get two bulls for us. Let them choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. 24 Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the LORD. The god who answers by fire—he is God."
Then all the people said, "What you say is good."

25 Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, "Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire." 26 So they took the bull given them and prepared it.
Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. "O Baal, answer us!" they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.

27 At noon Elijah began to taunt them. "Shout louder!" he said. "Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened." 28 So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. 29 Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention.

30 Then Elijah said to all the people, "Come here to me." They came to him, and he repaired the altar of the LORD, which was in ruins. 31 Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD had come, saying, "Your name shall be Israel." 32 With the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD, and he dug a trench around it large enough to hold two seahs [a] of seed. 33 He arranged the wood, cut the bull into pieces and laid it on the wood. Then he said to them, "Fill four large jars with water and pour it on the offering and on the wood."

34 "Do it again," he said, and they did it again.
"Do it a third time," he ordered, and they did it the third time. 35 The water ran down around the altar and even filled the trench.

36 At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 37 Answer me, O LORD, answer me, so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again."

38 Then the fire of the LORD fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.

39 When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, "The LORD -he is God! The LORD -he is God!"

(Jewish/Christian God is Yahweh, by name -- more commonly known as Jehovah)

I pretty much agree with you, both science and faith seek to explain why we exist.
Er, no. Science explains how we exist. They never go into the domain of why.

(Jewish/Christian God is Yahweh, by name -- more commonly known as Jehovah)
Or God. I've never said the word "Jehovah" without it being possesive and having the word "Witness" after it.

if god ever was, then what was his cause, as if he was always there he wouldnt have a cause and so wouldnt exist. Its just infinite regression all over again.

However, this is what I heard 7 months ago, the universe actually started off as a series of quantum loops which meshed to form space time. These loops contained all the events that have happened and will happen in teh history of the cosmos. The existence, (past present and future) of events in the universe as we know it gives rise to the existence of the loops in much the same way as a river shapes the valley of a mountain and a mountain shapes the formation of a river. Thats going off topic a bit but I think that if your going to answer fundamental questions like when the universe began or who is gods creator you might need to discard of all traditional notions of cause and effect.

Alternatively gods father was El, and he always existed.

Uranus:rolleyes: . I realise this has most likely been said before, but fuck reading through 6 pages to check.

Er, no. Science explains how we exist. They never go into the domain of why.
You know what I meant. Nevertheless, I believe that it was Darwin that postulated that we exist to bring forth existence and continue the species.
Alternatively gods father was El, and he always existed.
Why can't anyone see that God gave birth to Himself?

[QUOTE=Evil little girls]This isn't an issue since god isn't omnipotent.
Don't start yelling at me, just do this little mindgame (maybe you already know it)

See, suppose god is omnipotent, then he could make anything, literally anything.
Now, suppose you're in a situation, you VS god. You have to prove he isn't omnipotent, you can ask him anything.
You ask him to make an object that is so heavy that it can never leave it's place, it can not be moved or lifted and will always exist.
If god is omnipotent, this shouldn't be too hard for him.
Now ask him to move the object.
See, is he moves it, he failed in the first task and isn't omnipotent, if he doesn't move it, he can't do everything and isn't omnipotent.

About omnipresent.
Ask god to make something that will outlast him. If he is omnipotent he can do this, but then he wouldn't be omnipresent.

So if there is a god, he is neither omnipotent nor omnipresent.[QUOTE]


But you must also keep in mind that nothing is impossible for God. Perhaps he would just move the piece of earth the rock was on, thus moving the rock without actually moving it from it's place.

Not going to bother reading the entire thread,




God (in the Apostolic Christian understanding of him) is not a created being.
All created things come from him but he himself is not created. Otherwise the Apostle Peter(I think , its in the Bible though) would be wrong when saying God is unchanging. Since all created thing exist in time change, God must be outside of time and thus outside of what we precieve to be created.
But since creation is a temporal act......

Yes, you must have faith to believe in something so blatantly self-contradictory.