NationStates Jolt Archive

COMMENTARY: I already know I'm a "mutt." I don't need some DNA test to tell me that. I find this sad because some people are using it in an attempt to manipulate the system, and because "race" is a specious concept. I find it hilarious because they's gone be a whole lot of very surprised people! LOL! :D


Seeking Ancestry in DNA Ties Uncovered by Tests (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/12/us/12genes.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin)


Published: April 12, 2006
Alan Moldawer's adopted twins, Matt and Andrew, had always thought of themselves as white. But when it came time for them to apply to college last year, Mr. Moldawer thought it might be worth investigating the origins of their slightly tan-tinted skin, with a new DNA kit that he had heard could determine an individual's genetic ancestry.

The results, designating the boys 9 percent Native American and 11 percent northern African, arrived too late for the admissions process. But Mr. Moldawer, a business executive in Silver Spring, Md., says they could be useful in obtaining financial aid.

"Naturally when you're applying to college you're looking at how your genetic status might help you," said Mr. Moldawer, who knows that the twins' birth parents are white, but has little information about their extended family. "I have three kids going now, and you can bet that any advantage we can take we will."

Genetic tests, once obscure tools for scientists, have begun to influence everyday lives in many ways. The tests are reshaping people's sense of themselves — where they came from, why they behave as they do, what disease might be coming their way.

It may be only natural then that ethnic ancestry tests, one of the first commercial products to emerge from the genetic revolution, are spurring a thorough exploration of the question, What is in it for me?

Many scientists criticize the ethnic ancestry tests as promising more than they can deliver. The legacy of an ancestor several generations back may be too diluted to show up. And the tests have a margin of error, so results showing a small amount of ancestry from one continent may not actually mean someone has any.

Given the tests' speculative nature, it seems unlikely that colleges, governments and other institutions will embrace them. But that has not stopped many test-takers from adopting new DNA-based ethnicities — and a sense of entitlement to the privileges typically reserved for them.

Prospective employees with white skin are using the tests to apply as minority candidates, while some with black skin are citing their European ancestry in claiming inheritance rights.

One Christian is using the test to claim Jewish genetic ancestry and to demand Israeli citizenship, and Americans of every shade are staking a DNA claim to Indian scholarships, health services and casino money.

"This is not just somebody's desire to go find out whether their grandfather is Polish," said Troy Duster, a sociologist at New York University who has studied the social impact of the tests. "It's about access to money and power."

Driving the pursuit of genetic bounty are start-up testing companies with names like DNA Tribes and Ethnoancestry. For $99 to $250, they promise to satisfy the human hunger to learn about one's origins — and sometimes much more. On its Web site, a leader in this cottage industry, DNA Print Genomics, once urged people to use it "whether your goal is to validate your eligibility for race-based college admissions or government entitlements."

Tony Frudakis, the research director at DNAPrint, said the three-year-old company had coined the term American Indian Princess Syndrome to describe the insistent pursuit of Indian roots among many newly minted genetic genealogists. If the tests fail to turn up any, Mr. Frudakis added, "this type of customer is frequently quite angry."

DNAPrint calls the ethnic ancestry tests "recreational genomics" to distinguish them from the more serious medical and forensic applications of genetics. But as they ignite a debate over a variety of genetic birthrights, their impact may be further-reaching than anyone anticipated.

Some social critics fear that the tests could undermine programs meant to compensate those legitimately disadvantaged because of their race. Others say they highlight an underlying problem with labeling people by race in an increasingly multiracial society.

"If someone appears to be white and then finds out they are not, they haven't experienced the kinds of things that affirmative action is supposed to remedy," said Lester Monts, senior vice provost for student affairs at the University of Michigan, which won the right to use race as a factor in admissions in a 2003 Supreme Court decision.

Still, Michigan, like most other universities, relies on how students choose to describe themselves on admissions applications when assigning racial preferences.

[ This article is two pages long. Read the rest of the article (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/12/us/12genes.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&th&emc=th). ]

Unpleasant, and as expected.
Race as we know it, is basically a social fiction.
Congratulations! Some smart folks find a way to give the social fiction a scientific background - which happens to clash with the social fiction.

Result: confusion.

Others say they highlight an underlying problem with labeling people by race in an increasingly multiracial society.

I agree with those critics. Our multi-ethnic society ought to outlaw any and all forms of racial quotas.

Diversity, a mixed bag of nuts.

Unpleasant, and as expected.
Race as we know it, is basically a social fiction.
Congratulations! Some smart folks find a way to give the social fiction a scientific background - which happens to clash with the social fiction.

Result: confusion.

I agree with those critics. Our multi-ethnic society ought to outlaw any and all forms of racial quotas.

Diversity, a mixed bag of nuts.
Deep, dude. Very deep! :D

Diversity: enjoy it while it lasts. :D

Deep, dude. Very deep! :D

Diversity: enjoy it while it lasts. :D

Heh, yeah, I'm enjoying the Mixed Nuts while I can.

Meanwhile, I'm one of those strange mixed persons who don't fit into any pre-conceived ethnicity ( impossible with grandparents who cover 4 of the 5 generally accepted races ), and I do get a kick out of folks trying to assign me to a group and always getting it so utterly wrong...

as sick as afirmative action makes me, this is a lot worse. I don't like the idea of people getting help because of race, I say if people need help, then help them regardless of background, but the idea of people "cashing in" on their ancestry.....*vomits*

that being said.... I bet I have enough Native American in my blood to get the free health insurance, and since I can't get any otherwise......*goes to take test* (not really)

Heh, yeah, I'm enjoying the Mixed Nuts while I can.

Meanwhile, I'm one of those strange mixed persons who don't fit into any pre-conceived ethnicity ( impossible with grandparents who cover 4 of the 5 generally accepted races ), and I do get a kick out of folks trying to assign me to a group and always getting it so utterly wrong...
Hehehe!

MUTTS RULE! :D

as sick as afirmative action makes me, this is a lot worse. I don't like the idea of people getting help because of race, I say if people need help, then help them regardless of background, but the idea of people "cashing in" on their ancestry.....*vomits*

that being said.... I bet I have enough Native American in my blood to get the free health insurance, and since I can't get any otherwise......*goes to take test* (not really)
LOL! I probably do too, but I would rather be sick! :D

Hehehe!

MUTTS RULE! :D


Tighe, dude!

( my hindi-based contribution for the day );)

The results, designating the boys 9 percent Native American and 11 percent northern African, arrived too late for the admissions process. But Mr. Moldawer, a business executive in Silver Spring, Md., says they could be useful in obtaining financial aid.While the rest of what this implies is funny, I find this incredibly sad...

I could use a DNA test to figure out what part Cherokee I and my brothers are, since apparently my great, great grandmother was full-blood Cherokee

Hehehe!

MUTTS RULE! :DPlease :rolleyes:
I prefer the title "half-breed" :p

Please :rolleyes:
I prefer the title "half-breed" :p

Eutrusca and me cover at least 6 ethnicities. If you have only 2 ( being a halfbreed ) we can't deign to socialise with you. :P

Eutrusca and me cover at least 6 ethnicities. If you have only 2 ( being a halfbreed ) we can't deign to socialise with you. :P
Ha! The "half-breed" merely refers to my nationalities! I honestly have no clue how many ethnicities I have in me, but considering that my German grandfather's birthplace now belongs to Russia, it might be a few :p

Tighe, dude!

( my hindi-based contribution for the day );)
Way Kewl, mah brutha! :D

While the rest of what this implies is funny, I find this incredibly sad...
Ditto, which is why I said "both sad and hilariously funny." :)

Please :rolleyes:
I prefer the title "half-breed" :p
In the Old West, that was a MAJOR insult! :p

Haha! Too bad a genetic test can't determine what Native American tribe you're from...those kids could make a bundle from those casinos!

Eutrusca and me cover at least 6 ethnicities. If you have only 2 ( being a halfbreed ) we can't deign to socialise with you. :P
ROFLMAO! :D

Haha! Too bad a genetic test can't determine what Native American tribe you're from...those kids could make a bundle from those casinos!
Heh! True. I hear they really rake it in, particularly in Upstate New York! Whew!

In the Old West, that was a MAJOR insult! :pWhich is why I'd only refer to myself as one ;)

First came across that term when one our teachers read us Call of the Wild back in 4th or 5th grade.

Haha! Too bad a genetic test can't determine what Native American tribe you're from...those kids could make a bundle from those casinos!I can't wait until the first white power folks try to get financial aid for being part African-American...:p

I can't wait until the first white power folks try to get financial aid for being part African-American...:p
LOL! Yup! It's going to happen. COUNT on it! :D

I can't wait until the first white power folks try to get financial aid for being part African-American...:p
Affirmative Action is going to have to be redefined now...
Must be at least 60% non-Caucasian, and at least 60% Female....

Affirmative Action is going to have to be redefined now...
Must be at least 60% non-Caucasian, and at least 60% Female....
ROFLMAO! Uh ... the first one I understand ... kinda. But the second one? Hmmm! I wonder if there's any affirmative action for hermaphrodites? :D

ROFLMAO! Uh ... the first one I understand ... kinda. But the second one? Hmmm! I wonder if there's any affirmative action for hermaphrodites? :D
well i certainly wouldn't want anybody to think i was discriminatory!

Oh, this is ridiculous! Seriously?!? They should make a law that unless you can prove that at least one grandparent was born with X% of a certain racial DNA (say 75% to be generous), then you can't claim ancestry to that race. Going back 200 years or more just to grab a share of someone elses hard earned cash is just taking the mickey! Calling yourself asian just because you've got 2% asian DNA is seriously overdoing it.

Lets face it people, we're all mutts. Not one of us has 100% pure asian/eurpoean/african/other DNA. If that's the case, then I should be able to claim a significant portion of Ireland (about a quarter - my ancestors ruled in Ireland about 1000 years ago), I should be able to claim land in Scandanavia, through my Viking heritage, and probably some land in Eastern Europe too, with my Celtic heritage.

So where's my cut?!?

well i certainly wouldn't want anybody to think i was discriminatory!
LOL! Oh, HEAVEN forbid! :eek:

Oh, this is ridiculous! Seriously?!? They should make a law that unless you can prove that at least one grandparent was born with X% of a certain racial DNA (say 75% to be generous), then you can't claim ancestry to that race. Going back 200 years or more just to grab a share of someone elses hard earned cash is just taking the mickey! Calling yourself asian just because you've got 2% asian DNA is seriously overdoing it.

Lets face it people, we're all mutts. Not one of us has 100% pure asian/eurpoean/african/other DNA. If that's the case, then I should be able to claim a significant portion of Ireland (about a quarter - my ancestors ruled in Ireland about 1000 years ago), I should be able to claim land in Scandanavia, through my Viking heritage, and probably some land in Eastern Europe too, with my Celtic heritage.

So where's my cut?!?
Heh! As far as I know, I'm about 7/12 ths Scandanavian too. Whatever happened to all that Viking plunder anyway? :D

Anglo and Saxon. That is two right? ;)

Anglo and Saxon. That is two right? ;)
Heh! [ checks Utracia's DNA ] Hmm. Hate to be the one to break this to you, but ... just a tad of Magyar and a smidgeon of African. :p

LOL! Oh, HEAVEN forbid! :eek:
oy! what's that supposed to mean? i'm not discriminatory, i'm equality-challenged.

Heh! [ checks Utracia's DNA ] Hmm. Hate to be the one to break this to you, but ... just a tad of Magyar and a smidgeon of African. :p

Actually my mother tells me that my great-great-great grandmother was Iriqouis. Just a tiny, little bit of Native American.

Actually my mother tells me that my great-great-great grandmother was Iriqouis. Just a tiny, little bit of Native American.
incidentally, it is spelled Iroquois. :p

Actually my mother tells me that my great-great-great grandmother was Iriqouis. Just a tiny, little bit of Native American.
Heh! Kewl. You qualify as a member of "Mutts!" :D

If this test proves anything, it's that we all need to get it on with people of different ethnicities! Give your kids a brighter future!

incidentally, it is spelled Iroquois. :p

Thank you. I'll have to beg my ancestors for forgiveness. :D

Thank you. I'll have to beg my ancestors for forgiveness. :D
well i don't tell you to grief you, it's just in case you need to put it on your resume.
ok yes it was to grief.

If this test proves anything, it's that we all need to get it on with people of different ethnicities! Give your kids a brighter future!
Man, I once dated a Hispanic girl who definitely could have given my children a brighter future! Her old man was a MAJOR landowner out West! Damn me and my weaknesses! :headbang:

Heh! As far as I know, I'm about 7/12 ths Scandanavian too. Whatever happened to all that Viking plunder anyway? :D

Yeah, they plundered, then had hot sex with the Celtic women, and it was all bred out of them....yeah, they thought with what they kept in their pants...

well i don't tell you to grief you, it's just in case you need to put it on your resume.
ok yes it was to grief.

Here I thought it was to minute amount to matter. You think anyone would care about me being something like 1/64 Native American?

Where can you get these tests :O?

Man, I once dated a Hispanic girl who definitely could have given my children a brighter future! Her old man was a MAJOR landowner out West! Damn me and my weaknesses! :headbang:

Uh-oh... were you forced to duel with an angry hispanic gentleman as a point of honour? Had to flee from the Don's men due to indiscretion?

Here I thought it was to minute amount to matter. You think anyone would care about me being something like 1/64 Native American?
maybe if you were 1/64 of all kinds of ethnicities, then you could meet the 60% quota. this is doubly-advantageous, because then you could be a minority only when it is required.

Yeah. I'm actually as pure white as they come, it turns out, which is kind of a problem. I'd fit much better in a far right wing setting than an anarchist one, when you think about it. Most anarchists are very suspicious of pure "white" people and view them as the oppressors of the world (it's pretty much accepted anarchist doctrine that all "white people" are racist), so I really have to hide my ethnicity from other anarchists.

I shouldn't have any problem on the race card issue. I'm part Native American, and it shows. My skin is white, but there are patches of bright red all over the place (my cheeks being the most noticeable). And when I'm out in the sun a lot, my tan color isn't brown. It's more of a deep orange-red.

Go Cherokee and Chickasaw ancestry!


Oh, and I'm not some ridiculous thing like 1/64 Native American, either. My great grandpa was half Cherokee and half Irish, and my great gandma was almost fully Chickasaw. Of course, my grandpa, then, was Chickasaw-Irish-Cherokee. Then there's my grandma, who was mostly Scottish with some French and English, and from a long ways back, German and Scandinavian.

Anyone find the irony in this statement:
"If someone appears to be white and then finds out they are not, they haven't experienced the kinds of things that affirmative action is supposed to remedy," said Lester Monts, senior vice provost for student affairs at the University of Michigan, which won the right to use race as a factor in admissions in a 2003 Supreme Court decision.
Does that mean that only people who can show discrimination can get help?

Isn't that being discriminatory towards some people?

And what if a white kid grew up in a black neighbourhood and as a result suffered major discrimination? Would he then be able to claim affirmative action?

Would they also decline AA for a black student with wealthy parents who cannot prove any discrimination?

Does that mean that only people who can show discrimination can get help?

Isn't that being discriminatory towards some people?

And what if a white kid grew up in a black neighbourhood and as a result suffered major discrimination? Would he then be able to claim affirmative action?

Would they also decline AA for a black student with wealthy parents who cannot prove any discrimination?

You've got a point there. I personally think that people should be offered breaks and scholarships based on family income and grades. If I was a well to do black kid with crappy grades, I shouldn't deserve a scholarship over the poor white kid, living with his mother and alcoholic father, and who managed, despite all the odds, to ace his exams and score one of the highest marks in hs class that year. Discrimination is not something you should be awarded for if you suffer it, it's something that should be taught in schools and by parents not to happen in the first place....

In the case of native people, we are generally fighting for the right to determine our own membership. Many tribes don't buy into blood quantum at all, (in Canada, it isn't a legal standard anywhere) and focus on community acceptance and living connection. That would invalidate any sort of claim based on DNA unless that living connection and acceptance existed.

But I'm not sure the same thing could be done for other groups.

I shouldn't have any problem on the race card issue. I'm part Native American, and it shows. My skin is white, but there are patches of bright red all over the place (my cheeks being the most noticeable). And when I'm out in the sun a lot, my tan color isn't brown. It's more of a deep orange-red.

Go Cherokee and Chickasaw ancestry!

*checks skin* No red...weird...oh wait...you're referring to the term 'redskin'! Ha. Ha. Ha.

Well......Think of the one good thing to come out of this! Now we'll be able to tell for certain whether or not we can join the DAR! Or whether we're descended from some great founding father or Indian-Pillaging Pilgrim, or some poor noble Pilgrim-Pillaged Indian! haha....

Lets face it people, we're all mutts. Not one of us has 100% pure asian/eurpoean/african/other DNA.

Incorrect. Since those divisions are purely continental (and thus are not specific to any racial designation, culture, ethnic group, or phenotype), just claim of total extraction (e.g., "100% Asian DNA") is a definite possibility.

Of course, if you were referring to completely continent-specific DNA composition (either of specific components or of a sequence in its entirety), all bets are off.