NationStates Jolt Archive

I have sources and lots of evidence, machines, pictures and other information. Why do you keep bringing this up? :o
Just regarding what I said before - you obviously know a bit about this, and you have found sources.

So you should add the things that are missing to the wikipedia article, so everyone can benefit. That's how the system works. :)

I have sources and lots of evidence, machines, pictures and other information. Why do you keep bringing this up? :o

You do understand that there is a lot more to developing a fission bomb than just banging bits of Uranium together.

And if Japan was so far advanced in the theory of producing a bomb, why did they not bother to inform the germans of some of the finer points? Frankly, the state of the german project speaks volumes about the state of axis bomb research. By war's end they hadn't even calculated critical mass.

Edit: I've read a book that states unequivocally that germany was working on a time travel machine. It also has sources, pictures and interviews which claim that they were very, very close to perfecting it. Doesn't make it so.

Just regarding what I said before - you obviously know a bit about this, and you have found sources.

So you should add the things that are missing to the wikipedia article, so everyone can benefit. That's how the system works. :)

Will do...when I get a wiki account. ^-^

Yeah, it's all fun and games until you get screwed. Satire is only funny if it is only somewhat true

And fat people are some really lazy bastards as well. Have you ever noticed who takes the elevator? It's mostly obese people. One would figure that they would welcome the extra exercise, but they don't. I guess it's because after WWII, people didn't have to be in shape with the prospect of mass war;) .

well, at least we know where America is going to be come WWIII. But seriously, the obesity there is a big problem. We're not much better in Canada either. At least we promote healthy lifestyles here.

well, at least we know where America is going to be come WWIII. But seriously, the obesity there is a big problem. We're not much better in Canada either. At least we promote healthy lifestyles here.
Actually we do to....massive programs.....shocking huh!?

---------------------------------------------
How about we talk about German Tiger tanks. :D

Edit: I've read a book that states unequivocally that germany was working on a time travel machine. It also has sources, pictures and interviews which claim that they were very, very close to perfecting it. Doesn't make it so.

You know, if I didn't know as much as I do about some of the "secret weapons" trying to be built in the time(by all sides), this would be laughable. However, knowing what they were doing(And also knowing that Hitler was a dabbler in the occult), I would not doubt that they were trying to work on it.

That being said, WWII brought about some rather interesting weapons. The bouncing bomb, which was designed after observing how skipping stones on water worked, is one such example(Which was remarkably effective for what it was designed for).

Actually we do to....massive programs.....shocking huh!?

---------------------------------------------
How about we talk about German Tiger tanks. :D

Very, actually, considering how much its relying on the fast food industry.

Just regarding what I said before - you obviously know a bit about this, and you have found sources.

So you should add the things that are missing to the wikipedia article, so everyone can benefit. That's how the system works. :)

Just so long as the "neutrality disputed" disclaimer remains, I'll let this slide.

well, at least we know where America is going to be come WWIII. But seriously, the obesity there is a big problem. We're not much better in Canada either. At least we promote healthy lifestyles here.

Well, I've heard that in preparation for WWIII, we are developing "Big Boy II", which will be a bomb filled with the entire population of Houston and dropped from orbit. However, there are humanitarian concerns with this, as the destruction caused would be simply inhuman. We would solve two problems with one stone, though...


Actually we do to....massive programs.....shocking huh!?


Unfortunately the only people who follow these programs are those who are healthy to begin with. The others only know what a vegetable because they are those colored things between the patty and bun on a burger.

Well, I've heard that in preparation for WWIII, we are developing "Big Boy II", which will be a bomb filled with the entire population of Houston and dropped from orbit. However, there are humanitarian concerns with this, as the destruction caused would be simply inhuman. We would solve two problems with one stone, though...

oh yeah, bomb the shit out of the Middle East AND get rid of some of the fattest people around. How is that a good thing again?

oh yeah, bomb the shit out of the Middle East AND get rid of some of the fattest people around. How is that a good thing again?

Pros-Two birds with one stone! No more fat annoying people, no more terrorist attacks.

Cons-Two words: Fat fallout. The fat fallout would be released into the air, breathed by normally fit people, and cause them to become fatter. This would exponentially increase the fat people in the world. However, the number would be even through out the world, making the US not nearly as fat anymore. So maybe this is a pro?

Cons-Two words: Fat fallout. The fat fallout would be released into the air, breathed by normally fit people, and cause them to become fatter. This would exponentially increase the fat people in the world. However, the number would be even through out the world, making the US not nearly as fat anymore. So maybe this is a pro?

Yes, but the extremely long half-life of lard will render the region uninhabitable for centuries.

To drag this back on topic...

IMO, the timing and existence of Operation Barberossa was more critical than Pearl Harbor - although the Japanese simply not giving the US the popular excuse to get involved could have worked wonders for them. The book linked to ("How Hitler Could Have Won World War II") does seem to point out that a simple change in Hitler's psyche could have shifted the war dramatically.

But... to go along with the more common vein of events changed... I would posit a couple changes to make a dramatic shift.

Operation Barberossa is not launched in 1941 - nor planned for 1941. Instead, Germany pours much of the resources into developing the Luftwaffe, with smarter strategic and tactical priorities in the Battle of Britain. The Luftwaffe alternates between targeting the RAF and its identifiable ground operations/support bases and the British navy, relatively vulnerable to air attack at this point; the Germans then launch Sea Lion by surprise (i.e., while the RAF is still kicking, albeit in trouble, in the dark of night) with a vengeance. By aggressively targeting British ships with German planes, Germany is able to secure a tenuous foothold in Britain.

This allows Germany to either (a) start bringing the fight to Britain on their own soil or (b) scare peace terms out of Britain in a hurry.

However, by maintaining this focus, Stalin sets the pace of the Eastern Front, going on the offensive in 1942 as planned at roughly the same time that the German offensive on England begins to stall, settle down, or withdraw. German and Soviet forces meet head-on across Eastern Europe; recently conquered territories are further devastated.

The Soviet navy (a serious upgrade was underway, but essentially was thrown out the window in 1941) becomes a factor, as does the Italian navy, for reasons I'll mention momentarily.

With British units flocking inward to try and kick the invader out, the Mediterranean and northern Africa fall firmly under Axis control - if not necessarily Malta.

On the Pacific Front, we need to see at least one more quite significant change, such as Japan locating Asian oil reserves in the summer of 1941 (i.e., in Borneo, China, etc.)

very interesting opinion....also quite possible,but i think you are under estimating the japanese somewhat.

they fought us pretty damn hard...island to island...to the death in most instances.

it would have created quite the logistical problem for the russians,fighting on 2 fronts.
Not at all. The Japanese were completely incapable of fighting on open ground and had virtually no transport. In 1945 Manchuria the Red Army achieved a 10-1 kill ratio. Without the Pacific Theatre, the Japanese would have had more men, but equipment just as inferior and still no transport to match the wholly-mechanised Russian formations. Also the Red Army was happy to cross the desert and refuel tank divisions from the air (massive parachute drops 4tw), the Japanese may have been less enthusiastic about walking it.

Well, I think that britian would ahve survived-Operation Sealion was called off before America joined the war. I doubt that it would have stopped fighting but D-Day wouldn't have happened. The ialians would still have bee pushed out of Africa-Montgomary and the Empires forces would have done this. Porbably, knowing Churchills views on the Empire, Abyssinia and more of Africa would have been added to the Empire.

The USSR would have been pushed further back, Stalingrad+Lenigrad+Moscow may have fallen. But then the USSR would have pushed the Nazis back again. With no USA to come from the other direction this would have taken an extra 5 or so years, but the entiraty of Europe, save Spain and Switzerland would be communist. These two would be annexed late.

In the Pacific China would be Japanise, along with Burma and indochina. UIndia would be threatened but the sheer numbers of Inians would keep abck the japs. Maybe the phuillapines and OZ would be in trouble, but that would take 50 or so years to take.

India wouldn't get it's inderpendance. I think that the USSR and Japan would sign a non-agression pact and a 'cold war' between the two would develop. There would be 4 powers-Japan with China+South east Asia+Oceania, USSR with Russia and Europe, and Britian with Africa, India and the commonwealth. A cold War would develop with the USA being a minor power-the other nations sheer size dewarfing it. it might adress this by attacking south and taking South America making 4 powers.

You woul;d then get a 1984 sitation.

----------------------------
One good book about this all is Phillip K Dicks Man in a High Castle.

Indeed a nasty situation.

Either way it comes down to whether Russia has one of two things happen.

Germans capture Moscow and hold it down until supply lines are rebuilt to crush the Red Army in a disorganized state and use the hub of Moscow to stretch out and expand, conquering Russia.

Or Germany is forced out and has to invade both Russia and Japan on two fronts and the full force of the axis smashes the Red Army until they are unable or unwilling to help and thus fall prey to lack of resources that America was providing to help them win the war.

Both ways it spells disaster if America did not enter the war and was absolutely deadset on staying out with all the isolationists. This would mean Lend-Lease would fail and so would the hopes in Europe. Very very sickening idea.

-------------
Well....got to go to school now, another scenario when I return! :D

Here is my idea. Instead of criticising other people's scenarios, I'll give everyone else a chance.
Here is the most likely way the Axis might have won the war, IMHO.

Battle for Moscow, 1941.
After an explosion in the Urals, blocking vital tunnels, the Siberian reinforcements do not arrive around the city for weeks. Exhausted but motivated, the Germans push towards the city.
Stalin "evacuates". For days, no one hears a sound from the great leader, as he prepares to hightail it out of there.
On the 5th of December 1941, German troops raise their flags on the Kremlin.

The end of the USSR.
Without their leader, the remains of the Soviet Army are not clear on how to proceed. They attempt to keep the news of Stalin's disappearance a secret, but the fall of Moscow is hard enough a shock.
Many Soviet conscripts simply desert and try to make their way back home.

The Germans meanwhile use the time gained to reinforce their overstretched lines. Some Soviet commanders attempt small counteroffensives, simply believing themselves to be cut off from communication. But these offensives soon lose steam and are beaten back.

The only further German offensive in the Winter is a second attempt to take Murmansk, which eventually succeeds.

With the winter ending, the Soviet high command attempts to strike back, but is preempted by the Wehrmacht, this time not hurt and weakened by the retreat it went through after Moscow in real life. Army Group South begins its attack towards Stalingrad, while Army Group Centre pushes further East, towards the Urals.

The Soviet Forces divided into two, the northern half capitulates shortly after, deprived of supplies, leadership and morale.

The Crimea is taken, Stalingrad follows not long after. When the winter comes back, German forces are already in Baku.

Africa
Much the same happens in Africa. Rommel celebrates successes, but cannot convince German High Command to send him the reinforcements he wants.
But in 1943, German scout units enter the Middle East from the North through Russia, causing a massive Arab uprising.
Rommel attacks simultaneously, forcing the British to concentrate on Egypt and give up the Middle East.
Cut off from Britain and India and threatened from both sides, Egypt eventually falls in 1944.

India
Japan decides not to go ahead with the attack on the US, instead focussing on India. They attack through Burma with much greater force, causing much trouble.
Allthough it takes them until 1944 to eventually shake hands with the Germans, the rewards are plenty, and with the Middle East's oil supplies in Axis hands, they can continue to ignore the US indefinitely.

Britain
After having won the Battle of Britain, Churchill felt like he needed to hit back. His first bombing runs have some success, but are soon countered by a Luftwaffe that is not deployed in the East, and that can focus its resources much more on the defence of Germany. The Fw 190 rules the skies over the country, and Britain alone cannot hope to match the enemy in the air.
The plans are ultimately abandoned.

The landing at Dieppe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieppe_Raid) is a pretty good illustration of how D-Day might have worked without the US and years and years spent planning.

By 1944 the 'Blitz' is back. Heavier bombers with more capable escorts, supported by missiles attack Britain, and the destruction is horrible.

Churchill refuses to give up, and has the support of most of the population, but an apathy develops that ultimately culminates in great war weariness.

America
Perhaps some of the South American nations join the Axis and fight their neighbours.
The US finds itself isolated. German U-Boats make transport across the Atlantic a nightmare, and it doesn't look like shattered Britain can make good use of any war materiel anyways.
In the East, Japan now rules quite an empire, crushing Chinese resistance.

With the demonstrative unveiling of the Amerikabombers, culminating in a German plane flying over New York Harbour and dropping leaflets the camel's back is broken. The US urges Britain to end the war and stops all convois. Canada quits the war, as does Australia (the Japanese offensive had not gotten the go-ahead from above).

Ultimately the pressure in parliament becomes too great, peace demonstrations can be seen all over the UK. Churchill commits suicide and the UK signs a peace treaty with the Nazis, ultimately becoming little more than a protectorate.

I think without US help, Britain alone couldn't bomb the crap out of German factories, the German war machine would have more men and resources to pour into the Eastern front. Also the Japanese might have advanced on resource-rich Siberia and the Russians would be pressed on two fronts. If that happened, I think an axis victory would be guaranteed.

Japan and the Russians signed a non-aggresion treaty that lasted right up until nearly the end of the war. It was signed before Pearl Harbour.

The British would still be fighting on the back foot, but I'm absolutely sure that we could of held out, as we did for all of the war. Factories also don't produce fighting men, brilliant as the German scientists were, they couldn't quite produce robot soldiers.

(Dieppe was a cock-up, true, but the British and Commonwealth forces were much better-equipped later in the war and as it says, the lessons there saved many lives at the later beachheads)

Russia is a vast, vast country with many determined people living in it. The Germans would have lost there even if they took Moscow, and had more soldiers. German commanders were often overconfident, and this would have cost them a lot of soldiers, no matter how many there were. The Russians probably would have won, as your "Arab uprising" never happened, and many of the Arabs actually fought the Germans, as they did in WW1.

Japan had no reason to attack Britain, and probably would have stayed out of the war or continued to pointlessly attack China. If it attacked Indochina then the French would have pushed them out.

The war would have ended at much the same time, I think, with the Russians taking control of the whole of Germany. There would be no atomic bombs (which would be good) and I imagine that the world would be much the same.

Neu Leonstein's is probably most accurate. :)

Russia can't invade Germany without American supplies and weakening of the German forces. Those extra 200 groups would have been more then enough to smash Russia and leave it cowering, if Hitler hadn't made his mistakes with Russia I think we would have seen a clear devastation of Russian forces even if they managed to fall back and regroup.

Neu Leonstein's is probably most accurate. :)

Russia can't invade Germany without American supplies and weakening of the German forces. Those extra 200 groups would have been more then enough to smash Russia and leave it cowering, if Hitler hadn't made his mistakes with Russia I think we would have seen a clear devastation of Russian forces even if they managed to fall back and regroup.

Seriously, people have to see this about the Eastern Front. If you haven't already seen it, watch it. Very nice imo.

http://english.pobediteli.ru/