NationStates Jolt Archive

I suppose i could be regarded as an Atheist Fundamentalist so i wont pull any punches here.
But they annoy the hell out of me.


Concerning Hell.
Ye old paradox.
God knows all and controls all
Individual goes to hell.
God controls the individual
Individual goes to hell anyway despite the lack of "Choice"
Result, there is no hell or god is not All Good or god is not All Powerful.

Concerning Gays.
Judge not lest ye be judged.
Therefore people such as the christians against gays are condemning themselves ANYWAY

Concerning Freedom
God is good :) if god is good then he loves people to be happy, i am NOT happy praying and i AM happy fornicating so clearly theres something wrong there.
God is all-powerful, therefore his will is automatic so we would be doing what he wants ANYWAY.

Rawr, debate and discuss, no trolling or flamebaiting.

_______________________________________________
"You awake?"
"Yeh, you?"

The religious have the same human weaknesses, including double standards.

I suppose i could be regarded as an Atheist Fundamentalist so i wont pull any punches here.
But they annoy the hell out of me.


Concerning Hell.
Ye old paradox.
God knows all and controls all
Individual goes to hell.
God controls the individual
Individual goes to hell anyway despite the lack of "Choice"
Result, there is no hell or god is not All Good or god is not All Powerful.

God gave us free will, God has chosen not to control the individual.

Concerning Gays.
Judge not lest ye be judged.
Therefore people such as the christians against gays are condemning themselves ANYWAY
Yes I agree it's wrong.

The religious have the same human weaknesses, including double standards.

No he doesn't - the pope is infallable. =P

God gave us free will, God has chosen not to control the individual.


.


Ok, free will.


WELL
if he KNOWS EVERYTHING which he does
He already KNOWS WHAT YOUR CHOICE WILL BE.

I suppose i could be regarded as an Atheist Fundamentalist so i wont pull any punches here.


Does Atheism even have any fundamentals for you to stick to?

Does Atheism even have any fundamentals for you to stick to?
Yes. God doesn't exist.

Ok, free will.


WELL
if he KNOWS EVERYTHING which he does
He already KNOWS WHAT YOUR CHOICE WILL BE.

He's essentially letting you go to hell while trying to keep you from going to hell but knowing it's not gonna work so not trying anything different to keep it from happening so he's still letting it happen, regardless.

Point is, god could do anything he wanted. If there's a hell, and he knows everything, and he sends 'bad' people to hell, then it's his fault in the first place.

In fact, -everything- is his fault, because without him starting it all, none of this would've happened.

Concerning Hell.
Ye old paradox.
God knows all and controls all
Individual goes to hell.
God controls the individual
Individual goes to hell anyway despite the lack of "Choice"
Result, there is no hell or god is not All Good or god is not All Powerful.

Or God restrains Himself to allow for free will. Just because He is all-powerful doesn't mean He has to exercise all that power.

Concerning Gays.
Judge not lest ye be judged.
Therefore people such as the christians against gays are condemning themselves ANYWAY

I hate homophobes. If a benevolent god exists, the most egregious ones are definitely going to Hell, at least for a little bit, because I can't see a benevolent god sentencing anyone to eternal torture.

Concerning Freedom
God is good :) if god is good then he loves people to be happy, i am NOT happy praying and i AM happy fornicating so clearly theres something wrong there.

Why is happiness the greatest good? I think freedom is better than happiness. So, apparently, does God.

God is all-powerful, therefore his will is automatic so we would be doing what he wants ANYWAY.

Again, God could be restraining His power. In fact, if we do have free will, and the major religions say we do, then we know that God must be restraining His power.

Does Atheism even have any fundamentals for you to stick to?

The unwritten ones.

Christians are arseholes.
There is no god.
Religious people are stupid. Especially christians.
Agnostics are to be converted
The space pope of atheism is god, for his spectacular contribution to the cause.

No he doesn't - the pope is infallable. =P
that doesnt mean he cant be wrong...

The unwritten ones.

Christians are arseholes.
There is no god.
Religious people are stupid. Especially christians.
Agnostics are to be converted
The space pope of atheism is god, for his spectacular contribution to the cause.
No way ... there is no way any of thoes things are "Fundimental" to a lack of belief in a god.

Please dont blame your apparently ignorant opinion on the fundimentals (which dont exist) of atheism

Ok, free will.


WELL
if he KNOWS EVERYTHING which he does
He already KNOWS WHAT YOUR CHOICE WILL BE.
And? He still chooses not to control you.







On the Pope. He's believed to be Incapable of error in expounding doctrine on faith or morals.

that doesnt mean he cant be wrong...
WTF? do you even know what the word means?
3 entries found for infallible.
in·fal·li·ble Audio pronunciation of "infallible" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-fl-bl)
adj.

1. Incapable of erring: an infallible guide; an infallible source of information.
2. Incapable of failing; certain: an infallible antidote; an infallible rule.
3. Roman Catholic Church. Incapable of error in expounding doctrine on faith or morals.


In matters of faith he can not be wrong apparently (assuming you believe he is infallible)

No way ... there is no way any of thoes things are "Fundimental" to a lack of belief in a god.

Please dont blame your apparently ignorant opinion on the fundimentals (which dont exist) of atheism

I was kidding :rolleyes:

I was kidding :rolleyes:
You may want to use scarcasm tags then ... it did not carry well at all

I dont see why i should use sarc tags, if your not intelligent enough to see the sarcasm then you deserve to look like an arse.

If i put sarc tags on everything it cheapens it.
So no, i will not.

Or God restrains Himself to allow for free will. Just because He is all-powerful doesn't mean He has to exercise all that power.



I hate homophobes. If a benevolent god exists, the most egregious ones are definitely going to Hell, at least for a little bit, because I can't see a benevolent god sentencing anyone to eternal torture.



Why is happiness the greatest good? I think freedom is better than happiness. So, apparently, does God.



Again, God could be restraining His power. In fact, if we do have free will, and the major religions say we do, then we know that God must be restraining His power.

It's possible god would be restraining his power, yes, but why?

Is god human? Is he a singular entity? Does he have actual thought patterns?

Here's my thoughts: God is everything. He's all-knowing, all-acting, all-powerful, all-existing, he's past, present, future, everything good, everything evil. He started everything, and everything came -from- him, therefore it has to be part of him.

Now, within that infinite existence of time and space was created a figurehead that we could communicate with - maybe it's a separate entity altogether, I don't know - but it's the customer relations department of the corporation of god. This figurehead is the god we know and hear about, because he's the smiley face on everything. He's who we'll hang out with after we die. Maybe this figurehead appears as a different form with a different voice using different forms of interaction based on who it's interacting with.

Ideas?

Biblically speaking, i *think*:


Concerning Hell:

a) We all have a choice, made possible by Jesus' blood. IF not for that, we'd all be automatically doomed to suffer in Hell.

b) God knows everything. But that doesn't mean we don't have choice -- omnipotence/omniscience (of God) and personal choice (of Man) are not mutually exclusive.
----------

Concerning Gays (not just being gay, but any trait that some might disagree with... i mean anything):

You're right, we are not to JUDGE one another. Perhaps it's a fine line, but i think there is (indeed) a line between being concerned for someone/thinking that something someone does is wrong... and judging that person.

---------
Concerning Freedom:

OF course we are free to make choices. But God has made his law, and if our choices fall outside his rules, we may be judged accordingly. We're judged by him no matter what we do.

Nobody (I hope) will ever stop you from fornicating. You're free to make that choice. Just make sure you're on private property when you engage in such activities. hehe

I dont see why i should use sarc tags, if your not intelligent enough to see the sarcasm then you deserve to look like an arse.

If i put sarc tags on everything it cheapens it.
So no, i will not.
Not so much a matter of “Not being smart enough” as much as you not doing a real good job at it. Its hard to cheapen something that right now has no value.

I'm not exactly a forum noob, Some people can just pull it off and others cant. I'm sorry if you cant but I was trying to save you from getting the wrong response to that post.

But if you want to attribute it to my intelligence go ahead, whatever floats your boat.

Biblically speaking, i *think*:


Concerning Hell:

a) We all have a choice, made possible by Jesus' blood. IF not for that, we'd all be automatically doomed to suffer in Hell.

b) God knows everything. But that doesn't mean we don't have choice -- omnipotence/omniscience (of God) and personal choice (of Man) are not mutually exclusive.
----------

Concerning Gays (not just being gay, but any trait that some might disagree with... i mean anything):

You're right, we are not to JUDGE one another. Perhaps it's a fine line, but i think there is (indeed) a line between being concerned for someone/thinking that something someone does is wrong... and judging that person.

---------
Concerning Freedom:

OF course we are free to make choices. But God has made his law, and if our choices fall outside his rules, we may be judged accordingly. We're judged by him no matter what we do.

Nobody (I hope) will ever stop you from fornicating. You're free to make that choice. Just make sure you're on private property when you engage in such activities. hehe

Why did god make those the rules? He made the game's rules, he made the material of the boardgame, he made both good and bad areas of the board, and he made the hat, the car, the dice, and the cannon icons, and told them not to pass go and not to collect 200$.

The question remains: Why?

It's possible god would be restraining his power, yes, but why?

Is god human? Is he a singular entity? Does he have actual thought patterns?

Here's my thoughts: God is everything. He's all-knowing, all-acting, all-powerful, all-existing, he's past, present, future, everything good, everything evil. He started everything, and everything came -from- him, therefore it has to be part of him.

Now, within that infinite existence of time and space was created a figurehead that we could communicate with - maybe it's a separate entity altogether, I don't know - but it's the customer relations department of the corporation of god. This figurehead is the god we know and hear about, because he's the smiley face on everything. He's who we'll hang out with after we die. Maybe this figurehead appears as a different form with a different voice using different forms of interaction based on who it's interacting with.

Ideas?

Very Gnostic of you, though without the anti-materialism part.

I do think it makes sense that being humans, we interact with a mere portion of God, to make us capable of comprehending Him, and that God as a whole just wouldn't make sense to us. However, I think of God as absolutely good, period; without that He is not God at all, and should not be worshipped. Furthermore, I also think God is conscious, if in a sense beyond our consciousness; in my religious days I thought (or is it think? I seem to be falling back into that these days) that that was the significance of the whole "God created us in His image" thing. Thus He does have thought processes, and perhaps even experiences time, in a certain sense. He just knows a lot more and has a lot more power than we do.

Edit: As far as "why," I think it's because God is benevolent; no benevolent god would deprive us of our sovereignty.

Very Gnostic of you, though without the anti-materialism part.

I do think it makes sense that being humans, we interact with a mere portion of God, to make us capable of comprehending Him, and that God as a whole just wouldn't make sense to us. However, I think of God as absolutely good, period; without that He is not God at all, and should not be worshipped. Furthermore, I also think God is conscious, if in a sense beyond our consciousness; in my religious days I thought (or is it think? I seem to be falling back into that these days) that that was the significance of the whole "God created us in His image" thing. Thus He does have thought processes, and perhaps even experiences time, in a certain sense. He just knows a lot more and has a lot more power than we do.

Edit: As far as "why," I think it's because God is benevolent; no benevolent god would deprive us of our sovereignty.

But why do people worship god? Asking for his/her/its/their/etc help, being grateful for the good you perceive he/she/it/they/etc has done, that makes sense. Worshipping him/her/it/them/etc because he/etc is more powerful than you, not so much. By that logic we should all be worshipping George Bush, or any other national leader.

Yeah, in his image... but what does that mean? To what lengths does his image continue? Does he mean, just physically his image? Or mentally? Or spiritually? Do we all have god's power because we were created in his image, but we just reject that idea and consider god to be better than us because of what we've always been told? Could I destroy and recreate the world with simply a thought because I have god's power, being in his image?

It's a very vague statement, and I don't think we could ever be completely sure what it means.

But why do people worship god? Asking for his/her/its/their/etc help, being grateful for the good you perceive he/she/it/they/etc has done, that makes sense. Worshipping him/her/it/them/etc because he/etc is more powerful than you, not so much. By that logic we should all be worshipping George Bush, or any other national leader.

I don't think either are viable. The only things God has granted us - the world, consciousness, free will - He gave us of His own choice. We never requested them. We can thank Him, but we owe Him nothing.

I see the role of God as a moral anchor. By projecting what is best about us into Him, we can ask His aid in guiding us towards the better parts of ourselves.

Does Atheism even have any fundamentals for you to stick to?

Yes, all atheists, when asked the question, "Do you believe in God," will answer some form of "no."

-that is all.

I suppose i could be regarded as an Atheist Fundamentalist so i wont pull any punches here.
But they annoy the hell out of me.


Concerning Hell.
Ye old paradox.
God knows all and controls all
Individual goes to hell.
God controls the individual
Individual goes to hell anyway despite the lack of "Choice"
Result, there is no hell or god is not All Good or god is not All Powerful.
?"
No the person chooses from two choices. either A) accept christ and goto heaven or b) goto hell.. they have they choice to make either one.



Concerning Gays.
Judge not lest ye be judged.
Therefore people such as the christians against gays are condemning themselves ANYWAY

I agree many christians "condemn" gays. they should not. Christ did not want them to do that, but they(the christians) disobey Him>


Concerning Freedom
God is good :) if god is good then he loves people to be happy, i am NOT happy praying and i AM happy fornicating so clearly theres something wrong there.
God is all-powerful, therefore his will is automatic so we would be doing what he wants ANYWAY.


God makes rules, much like parents, in order to keep people safe. Sure he would love to see us all happy, but thats just not realistic, is it? If he made everyone happy that would alter the free will thing. So yeah you can be happy doing something sinful, but doesn't mean its a good thing.. Just like i can be happy running someone over with my car, but doesn't mean its right, does it?


Rawr, debate and discuss, no trolling or flamebaiting.

_______________________________________________
"You awake?"
"Yeh, you?"


ok

The unwritten ones.

Christians are arseholes.
There is no god.
Religious people are stupid. Especially christians.
Agnostics are to be converted
The space pope of atheism is god, for his spectacular contribution to the cause.


Im glad you judge all religious people the same way...:headbang:

Im glad you judge all religious people the same way...:headbang:
Apparently he/she was “joking” with that post

Though when I pointed out it was not very clear nor good he/she just blamed it on my intelligence

No the person chooses from two choices. either A) accept christ and goto heaven or b) goto hell.. they have they choice to make either one.



I agree many christians "condemn" gays. they should not. Christ did not want them to do that, but they(the christians) disobey Him>



God makes rules, much like parents, in order to keep people safe. Sure he would love to see us all happy, but thats just not realistic, is it? If he made everyone happy that would alter the free will thing. So yeah you can be happy doing something sinful, but doesn't mean its a good thing.. Just like i can be happy running someone over with my car, but doesn't mean its right, does it?




ok

... It's not "realistic"? God is that LAST person who has to worry about the workings of reality. He CREATED it. He could bend it to whatever he wanted.

Yes, all atheists, when asked the question, "Do you believe in God," will answer some form of "no."

-that is all.

Or some form of "What's God?" if they don't know.

Hmm..I'm an atheist too, but your logic isn't exactly airtight.

You may be happy fornicating. But doing so has negative consequences. And even without them, I would argue there's a truer 'happniess' that is not consistant with hedonistic happiness.

Also, if god enforces happiness on everybody, it goes against the notion of free will. You get around your apparent contradiction by saying 'You have free will but God directs you to make the right choices if he knows you will make them.'

Heck, that's the thing about Christianity, there are ways to explain away all the contradictions. You can have God have written the bible, and it be true without all being factually accurate. Maybe God knew people 2000 years ago would not have understood the absolute truth, so he explained it to them in a way they would understand, custom made to appeal to people in that time period.

Evolution too. Natural selection can have spawned the human race without any 'directed evolution' or 'intelligent design'. Just say 'God made single celled organisms so well that they would evolve into humans without having to be directed'.

And maybe God didn't mention evolution in the Bible because he knew it would be seen as completely ridiculous by humans who weren't aware of the scientific method and cellular biology. He needed a message that would be accepted by people in the 0's to 300's AD, and 'evolution' would have been seen as proposterous by people in that time.

Why did god make those the rules? He made the game's rules, he made the material of the boardgame, he made both good and bad areas of the board, and he made the hat, the car, the dice, and the cannon icons, and told them not to pass go and not to collect 200$.

The question remains: Why?

I don't know if there's any way to answer the "Why?" question.

Not to preach, but Paul says this (from 1 Corinthians 13):

"where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears... 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."

He's essentially letting you go to hell while trying to keep you from going to hell but knowing it's not gonna work so not trying anything different to keep it from happening so he's still letting it happen, regardless.

Point is, god could do anything he wanted. If there's a hell, and he knows everything, and he sends 'bad' people to hell, then it's his fault in the first place.

In fact, -everything- is his fault, because without him starting it all, none of this would've happened.
You just bent my brain, man.

Also, if god enforces happiness on everybody, it goes against the notion of free will. You get around your apparent contradiction by saying 'You have free will but God directs you to make the right choices if he knows you will make them.'

Eh, since when did logical impossibilities stop God? He made logic right? We could have free will and have enforced happiness.

Heck, that's the thing about Christianity, there are ways to explain away all the contradictions.

And it usually boils down to "There are no rules that apply to the supernatural" (Can't remember who gave me that one, thanks)

I suppose i could be regarded as an Atheist Fundamentalist so i wont pull any punches here.
But they annoy the hell out of me.


Concerning Hell.
Ye old paradox.
God knows all and controls all
Individual goes to hell.
God controls the individual
Individual goes to hell anyway despite the lack of "Choice"
Result, there is no hell or god is not All Good or god is not All Powerful.

Concerning Gays.
Judge not lest ye be judged.
Therefore people such as the christians against gays are condemning themselves ANYWAY

Concerning Freedom
God is good :) if god is good then he loves people to be happy, i am NOT happy praying and i AM happy fornicating so clearly theres something wrong there.
God is all-powerful, therefore his will is automatic so we would be doing what he wants ANYWAY.

Rawr, debate and discuss, no trolling or flamebaiting.

First, one can be a fundamentalist and not be an idiot. Examine the word: one who supports or believes in the fundamentals or basics of something. A lot of fools have become so focused on believing the right stuff that they disregard why they believe in the right stuff.

As an atheist, it would be very difficult for you to understand the doctrine of Hell. I don't say that to be mean; you don't believe in certain things (sovereignty of God, for example) that are required to be accepted to have a thorough understanding of why people go to Hell. Basically, it's because God chooses not to regenerate some sinners. They may not want Hell, but they definitely don't want God. Therefore, God gives them what they want: separation from Him, or Hell.

About gays, Christians are commanded to not judge souls. They are commanded to judge actions, thoughts, motives, ideas, etc. Yes, we sometimes misjudge or judge to much. Because gays are engaged in sinful behavior (It's sinful because Scripture says so, not because we think it is) we are commanded to judge that behavior. Unfortunately, there are those who think that judging the sin requires judging the sinner. That overused phrase replies here perfectly: "Love the sinner, hate the sin." It is possible to be a Christian and be gay. If a gay repents of his behavior and gives that area of his life over to God to control, then that person is a Christian, a fundamentalist even. I've done that. I'm gay but I believe it that homosexual thoughts, desires, and actions are sinful.

Finally, God wants you to be happy. But because we are corrupted by sins, there are somes sins that make us happy. It is wrong that these things make us happy and it would be infinitely better to be made happy by good things rather than sins. I point back to me being gay. I lust after other men. That makes me happy. But it is sinful for that happiness to come from a sin.

(It's sinful because Scripture says so, not because we think it is)

I imagine this is that Leveticus thing? Poorly translated and ultmately intended for Levite preists?

I suppose i could be regarded as an Atheist Fundamentalist so i wont pull any punches here.
But they annoy the hell out of me.


Concerning Hell.
Ye old paradox.
God knows all and controls all
Individual goes to hell.
God controls the individual
Individual goes to hell anyway despite the lack of "Choice"
Result, there is no hell or god is not All Good or god is not All Powerful.




_______________________________________________
"You awake?"
"Yeh, you?"

I really don't like fundamentalism, so I agree with your second and third paragraphs. But in responce to this modified omnipotence paradox, if God is all powerful and created all and above all then he can not be subbordinate to anything, which includes logic and would therefore be allowed to commit a paradox

I imagine this is that Leveticus thing? Poorly translated and ultmately intended for Levite preists?

Actually the New Testament, also. Paul talks about unrepentant homosexual offenders not inheriting the Kingdom of God.

And the Levite priests were the leaders of the people. They carried out the law. So, although Leviticus was written to the Levites it was written for the people.

I really don't like fundamentalism, so I agree with your second and third paragraphs. But in responce to this modified omnipotence paradox, if God is all powerful and created all and above all then he can not be subbordinate to anything, which includes logic and would therefore be allowed to commit a paradox

Exactly! So we return to why he doesn't, eh?

Actually the New Testament, also. Paul talks about unrepentant homosexual offenders not inheriting the Kingdom of God.

And you're sure on this Paul character?

And you're sure on this Paul character?

What do you mean? Am I sure he is divinely-inspired and that he is infallible when speaking on matters of theology, ethics, religion, philosophy, etc? By faith, yes. You probably don't like that answer, but it's the only one I have right now.

What do you mean? Am I sure he is divinely-inspired and that he is infallible when speaking on matters of theology, ethics, religion, philosophy, etc? By faith, yes. You probably don't like that answer, but it's the only one I have right now.

Paul talks a lotta shit, dude. Personally I don't trust any of the apostles. They're a literal metaphor for the churches and their views on the teachings of Jesus - whatever they say is just another interpretation, and is therefore not divinated.

I only trust Jesus' message itself, of peace and understanding and love. Anything else just gets in the way.

Apparently he/she was “joking” with that post

Though when I pointed out it was not very clear nor good he/she just blamed it on my intelligence


oh...ok...i don't care anymore..ill just let those type of people continue to act stupid and make an ass of themselves.

Paul talks a lotta shit, dude. Personally I don't trust any of the apostles. They're a literal metaphor for the churches and their views on the teachings of Jesus - whatever they say is just another interpretation, and is therefore not divinated.

I only trust Jesus' message itself, of peace and understanding and love. Anything else just gets in the way.

Then why did Jesus call the Apostles/Disciples if He knew that they would only pervert His Word to their liking? If the Apostles were the ones to record Jesus' words, how do yo uknow what Jesus truly said or in what context He said it?

If the Apostles were the ones to record Jesus' words, how do yo uknow what Jesus truly said or in what context He said it?

*gasp* We don't know!

Ok, free will.


WELL
if he KNOWS EVERYTHING which he does
He already KNOWS WHAT YOUR CHOICE WILL BE.
Ah, I love that paradox. I always answer the following: whether or not God knows what your going to do, that does not mean he made you do it.

Also, that assumes God is a being that has to deal with time as humans do. I do not believe that to be the case.

*gasp* We don't know!

But we do know, by faith. I know many don't like to hear that but that's the only means through which anyone knows anything. You have faith in something. If you don't have faith in God, you have faith in the intellect of man or faith in something else.

Also, my comment was to someone who claimed to believe Jesus' words only, not the words of the Apostles. How then does he truly know Jesus' words if the Apostles recorded them?

But we do know, by faith. I know many don't like to hear that but that's the only means through which anyone knows anything. You have faith in something. If you don't have faith in God, you have faith in the intellect of man or faith in something else.

If faith includes things like "I have faith this ball will come back down after I throw it up" Then yeah, I suppose there must be faith. Otherwise...ehhh...not so much.

Ah, I love that paradox. I always answer the following: whether or not God knows what your going to do, that does not mean he made you do it.


Well, as a teacher of mine once said, if you know what each and every student is going to score, why give the test?

Then why did Jesus call the Apostles/Disciples if He knew that they would only pervert His Word to their liking? If the Apostles were the ones to record Jesus' words, how do yo uknow what Jesus truly said or in what context He said it?

Jesus knew that no matter who he had around him, the people would interpret everything he says to their own way. It's what people do.

I know Jesus was a peaceful badass because I believe he was sent from or inspired by god himself, and the human resources department of G.O.D.C.O.R.P. likes to enforce peace and love. Simply put, god didn't make anyone so that they would kill eachother - otherwise, why make them at all? They just end up doing it anyway because they're people. God knows they would do it, and he doesn't stop it because he enjoys the unfolding events. We entertain him with our existence, and when we die we get to hang out with him up in heaven. It's kind of like meeting your favorite celebrity after seeing all 110 seasons of their show, which you happened to also produce, direct, and had a hand in writing.

God gave us free will, God has chosen not to control the individual.

Bullshit.

if(God==omniscient)
human.freewill=null;

Omniscience requires fate. Omnipotence requires tacit total control over events and actors.

Well, I don't want no Jesus freak to tell me what it's all about,
No black magician telling me to cut my soul out,
Don't believe in violence; I don't even believe in peace
I've opened the door now my mind's been (release/relieved)

Well, I don't want no preacher telling me about the god in the sky,
No, I don't want no one to tell me where I'm gonna go when I die
I wanna live my life I don't want people telling me what to do
I just believe in myself, 'cos no one else is true

Ev'ry day just comes and goes
Life is one long overdose
People drive to ruination
I can see through their frustration

People hiding their real faces,
Each one running their rat races
Behind each flow'r there grows a weed
in their world of make-believe

So believe what I tell you;
It's the only way you'll find in the end
Just believe in yourself you know you really shouldn't have to pretend
Don't let those empty people try and interfere with your mind
Just live your life and leave them all behind

Concerning Hell.
Ye old paradox.
God knows all and controls all
Individual goes to hell.
God controls the individual
Individual goes to hell anyway despite the lack of "Choice"
Result, there is no hell or god is not All Good or god is not All Powerful.

Only problem with that is one thing. All sentient beings have choice. They can choose to sin or not to sin. God wants us to make the right choices for ourselves and to do the right thing. We are the ones that choose to go against His will.

Concerning Gays.
Judge not lest ye be judged.
Therefore people such as the christians against gays are condemning themselves ANYWAY

Any Christian that is against gays is sinning themselves and a hypocrite. The Bible says to hate the sin and not the sinner. That is a blanket generalization, if there ever was one.

Concerning Freedom
God is good :) if god is good then he loves people to be happy, i am NOT happy praying and i AM happy fornicating so clearly theres something wrong there.
God is all-powerful, therefore his will is automatic so we would be doing what he wants ANYWAY.

That is certainly your right to do so. God wants us to choose Him over sin, but He is not going to force us to do it. Goodness is something chosen, just like a lifestyle of sin, otherwise it means nothing. You should do whatever makes you happy. I am not going to proselytize here. Wouldn't do any good anyway.

He's essentially letting you go to hell while trying to keep you from going to hell but knowing it's not gonna work so not trying anything different to keep it from happening so he's still letting it happen, regardless.

Point is, god could do anything he wanted. If there's a hell, and he knows everything, and he sends 'bad' people to hell, then it's his fault in the first place.

In fact, -everything- is his fault, because without him starting it all, none of this would've happened.

This is the most f***ed up logic I've seen in some time... Perhapse you should actually attempt to read the stuff spewing forth form your mouth.

You may want to use scarcasm tags then ... it did not carry well at all

A sarcasm tag defeats the very purpose of sarcasm.

Bullshit.

if(God==omniscient)
human.freewill=null;

Omniscience requires fate. Omnipotence requires tacit total control over events and actors.
Fine you are just an object your life is worth no more than the keyboard I used to type this. That what you wanted to hear?



But seriously
Omniscience doesn't require fate,
For example:
I know if the traffic light is red the cars will stop, if it is green the cars will go but I don't control the traffic light.
Omnipotence doesn't require total control it means you have the power to have total control.

Fine you are just an object your life is worth no more than the keyboard I used to type this. That what you wanted to hear?

Well, our live don't have a predetermined meaning, if that's what you're going for.

But seriously
Omniscience doesn't require fate,
For example:
I know if the traffic light is red the cars will stop, if it is green the cars will go but I don't control the traffic light.
Omnipotence doesn't require total control it means you have the power to have total control.

Kay...I suppose that rules out benevolence then...

Well, our live don't have a predetermined meaning, if that's what you're going for.
none that we know of other then to "Be fruitful and increase in number" as it says in Genesis God says after he creates every type of life and also science agrees in a way.


Kay...I suppose that rules out benevolence then...
In what way?

In what way?

In they way that if you stand by and let a crime happen you were completely capable of stopping, you are somewhat guilty as well.

In they way that if you stand by and let a crime happen you were completely capable of stopping, you are somewhat guilty as well.
hmm I have to think hard about that... (posting just so you know I'm not ignoring you.)

hmm I have to think hard about that... (posting just so you know I'm not ignoring you.)

Take your time, it's rare we get someone to think.

In they way that if you stand by and let a crime happen you were completely capable of stopping, you are somewhat guilty as well.

If a parent never lets her children make mistakes, and always protects them from any mistake they might make, is that benevolence or bad parenting?

First, one can be a fundamentalist and not be an idiot. Examine the word: one who supports or believes in the fundamentals or basics of something. A lot of fools have become so focused on believing the right stuff that they disregard why they believe in the right stuff.

It really depends on how one is using the term. From a sociological point-of-view, the word is most often used to describe a group of people who have not studied the religion they "follow" in depth, and focus only on perceived attacks to very specific rules of the religion, rather than on the religion as a whole.

There are also people who call themselves fundamentalists because they think they follow the "fundamental" religion.

Sometimes the two get mixed up, but outside of someone saying, "I am a fundamentalist," the word is most often used in the first sense.


Actually the New Testament, also. Paul talks about unrepentant homosexual offenders not inheriting the Kingdom of God.

Paul uses a word that has since been translated as "homosexual offenders". Of course, the word in question had no other contemporary uses. It was essentially made up by Paul, so it is very difficult to know what he was talking about. And even then, are "homosexual offenders" those who, as many did at the time, are actually straight but perform homosexual sex acts on temple priests to get blessings? Are they men who engage in another common practice of the time, taking young male prostitutes as lovers? Or would it refer to any homosexual who engages in any type of sexual relationship?

You obviously interpret the possibly flawed English translation of a made-up word as, "homosexual sex," but it is not inherently clear that this is what Paul was talking about. And then there is the issue of whether or not the words of Paul can be seen as anything more than the words of any other preacher...

If a parent never lets her children make mistakes, and always protects them from any mistake they might make, is that benevolence or bad parenting?

Well, a parent could let them make the mistake, then take the time to tell them why it's wrong, and teach them a bit. As opposed to things like, you know, eternal torture and stuff, that's probably bad parenting.

I suppose i could be regarded as an Atheist Fundamentalist so i wont pull any punches here.

I would use the term "militant atheist" actually, since the general use of the word fundamentalist can't really be applied to atheist. But yeah, sure.

Well, a parent could let them make the mistake, then take the time to tell them why it's wrong, and teach them a bit.

Which, based on most religion, is essentially what God does with humanity. Humanity makes mistakes, and then God sends a prophet, appears on Earth as Jesus Christ, or inspires people to do the right thing, and to understand why the rest was wrong. This happens periodically.

As opposed to things like, you know, eternal torture and stuff, that's probably bad parenting.

People often misunderstand the doctrine of Hell. Hell is separation from God, nothing more, nothing less. For those who love God, those who wish to follow God, such separation would be torture. Thus, it is described in all sorts of horrible ways. For those who have already chosen such separation, it is merely a continuation.

Fine you are just an object your life is worth no more than the keyboard I used to type this. That what you wanted to hear?

Umm....no. Where exactly did that come from?

But seriously
Omniscience doesn't require fate,
For example:
I know if the traffic light is red the cars will stop, if it is green the cars will go but I don't control the traffic light.

Bad analogy. You don't know that the cars will stop - you believe from previous experience and what you believe the rules of the road to be that they will. That doesn't mean that the cars will necessarily stop - there's nothing stopping one from going on anyway and slamming into you. If, on the other hand, you, being an omniscient being, knew for an uncontrovertible fact outside the bounds of probability or rational doubt that the cars would stop - the drivers would have no free will to stop or not stop. If you know that the cars will stop - then they will do so. Period. No choice involved. That's the definition of omniscience: you know everything, including a record of everything that will ever happen everywhere for all time, which requires those things to happen without the element of free will.

Omniscience requires predetermination, and predetermination excludes free will.

Omnipotence doesn't require total control it means you have the power to have total control.

Which implies tacit control over everything. Especially in combination with omniscience, everything that happens in what you knowingly, wilfully allow to happen. Everything is potentially a result of an action by you, and every action you take is in full view of every single result, consequence, and subsequent causally related event. The universe is effectively your lucid dream, and everything and everyone in it is no more real than a character in a dream; their existence is how you define and desire it to be.

That's why I would be horrified at the thought of being truly, totally, absolutely omnipotent. The world would be a meaningless dream with no substance outside what you give or allow it. How could you treat a person as actually real if they could cease to exist, reappear again, become anything or nothing, or whatever an infinite number of times over at your thought - or even less? They're just an illusion. It would be the most horrifically, utterly lonely existence imaginable, unless you had limits to your power or other gods to interact with.

IWhich, based on most religion, is essentially what God does with humanity. Humanity makes mistakes, and then God sends a prophet, appears on Earth as Jesus Christ, or inspires people to do the right thing, and to understand why the rest was wrong. This happens periodically.

Yeah, he supposedly did that 2000 years ago and had a book written about it, hasn't done a thing since. Basically you're a kid at home alone and your parently influence consisted of a rather detailed sticky note that's been translated to some kind of Engrish, that you aren't even sure was written by your parents. Periodically would be a lot more effective if these periods weren't more than two millenia in length.

People often misunderstand the doctrine of Hell. Hell is separation from God, nothing more, nothing less. For those who love God, those who wish to follow God, such separation would be torture. Thus, it is described in all sorts of horrible ways. For those who have already chosen such separation, it is merely a continuation.

Eh, fine.

Omniscience requires predetermination, and predetermination excludes free will.

Omniscience requires pre-knowledge, which is not the same thing as predetermination. Within the realm of our existence, we have free will, whether God is omniscient or not, because God is not directly causing our actions - we are deciding upon them. Now, those decisions are a result of our particular thought processes and experiences, and so on, and if someone really knew all the possible variables that go into that (ie. they were omnisicent), they could predict exactly what we would do. It wouldn't change the fact that we still had the option.

Omniscience requires pre-knowledge, which is not the same thing as predetermination. Within the realm of our existence, we have free will, whether God is omniscient or not, because God is not directly causing our actions - we are deciding upon them. Now, those decisions are a result of our particular thought processes and experiences, and so on, and if someone really knew all the possible variables that go into that (ie. they were omnisicent), they could predict exactly what we would do. It wouldn't change the fact that we still had the option.

Short version: We have a choice, God just knows what we're going to choose.

Yeah, he supposedly did that 2000 years ago and had a book written about it, hasn't done a thing since.

Really? So you know for a fact that God provides no guidance now?

Basically you're a kid at home alone and your parently influence consisted of a rather detailed sticky note that's been translated to some kind of Engrish, that you aren't even sure was written by your parents. Periodically would be a lot more effective if these periods weren't more than two millenia in length.

Who says humanity is still child-like? Perhaps we've matured a bit more than that - to the point where God gives guidance only if it is asked for - sort of like parents when their children get older.

Short version: We have a choice, God just knows what we're going to choose.

Pretty much.

Umm....no. Where exactly did that come from?

If you have no free will you are merely a toy or tool for God's amusement.


Bad analogy. You don't know that the cars will stop - you believe from previous experience and what you believe the rules of the road to be that they will. That doesn't mean that the cars will necessarily stop - there's nothing stopping one from going on anyway and slamming into you. If, on the other hand, you, being an omniscient being, knew for an uncontrovertible fact outside the bounds of probability or rational doubt that the cars would stop - the drivers would have no free will to stop or not stop. If you know that the cars will stop - then they will do so. Period. No choice involved. That's the definition of omniscience: you know everything, including a record of everything that will ever happen everywhere for all time, which requires those things to happen without the element of free will. I simplified it. God would know (but not influence) the thoughts of the driver, the ammount of time the car will take to stop and everything else but he's still not controling.


Which implies tacit control over everything. Especially in combination with omniscience, everything that happens in what you knowingly, wilfully allow to happen. Everything is potentially a result of an action by you, and every action you take is in full view of every single result, consequence, and subsequent causally related event. The universe is effectively your lucid dream, and everything and everyone in it is no more real than a character in a dream; their existence is how you define and desire it to be.
You explain it yourself it is potentially but not inevitably a result of an action by God. Free will is an inaction by God with regards to your thoughts and actions (without you wanting it) he sometimes controls your surroundings.


That's why I would be horrified at the thought of being truly, totally, absolutely omnipotent. The world would be a meaningless dream with no substance outside what you give or allow it. How could you treat a person as actually real if they could cease to exist, reappear again, become anything or nothing, or whatever an infinite number of times over at your thought - or even less? They're just an illusion. It would be the most horrifically, utterly lonely existence imaginable, unless you had limits to your power or other gods to interact with.
It would be horrifically lonely unless you had beings with free will to interact with. Although I'm not sure we can attach human emotions to God.




I'm glad Dempublicans replied to you Dinaverg I couldn't think of anything to reply to what you said but I agree with him entirely.

Really? So you know for a fact that God provides no guidance now?

Eh, the same way I know those eggs didn't come from the Easter Bunny. Unless, you know, there's evidence for these things beyond "I heard his voice" sort of testimonies.

Who says humanity is still child-like? Perhaps we've matured a bit more than that - to the point where God gives guidance only if it is asked for - sort of like parents when their children get older.

True, but parents do tend to review with their kids that they do in fact exist.

Eh, the same way I know those eggs didn't come from the Easter Bunny.

The two are hardly comparable, as the Easter Bunny would be expected to leave physical, measurable evidence. Not to mention that I'm sure you've seen human beings hiding the eggs.

Unless, you know, there's evidence for these things beyond "I heard his voice" sort of testimonies.

I have all the evidence I need, but like anything dealing with the spiritual, it is personal evidence. What you are basically saying is, "I don't think I'm getting any guidance from God, therefore it is impossible for anyone else to."

The two are hardly comparable, as the Easter Bunny would be expected to leave physical, measurable evidence. Not to mention that I'm sure you've seen human beings hiding the eggs.

So? The easter bunny can't be everywhere, I'm sure he has people help him out a bit.

I have all the evidence I need, but like anything dealing with the spiritual, it is personal evidence. What you are basically saying is, "I don't think I'm getting any guidance from God, therefore it is impossible for anyone else to."

No, I'm saying there's no good reason to think God (assuming he exists, which there's also no reason for) has done anything since the bible. Your "personal evidence" probably involves some really crappy reasoning, unfortunately, your mind accepts that.

If you have no free will you are merely a toy or tool for God's amusement.

That's assuming you believe in God. I don't. I was pointing out one of many problems with His supposed existence.

I simplified it. God would know (but not influence) the thoughts of the driver, the ammount of time the car will take to stop and everything else but he's still not controling.

If he knew beforehand (which he would, being omniscient) than the driver had no choice in the matter - his actions were preordained. Knowing the future in absolute terms requires fate instead of free will.

You explain it yourself it is potentially but not inevitably a result of an action by God. Free will is an inaction by God with regards to your thoughts and actions (without you wanting it) he sometimes controls your surroundings.

You're mixing up omnipotence and omniscience. Time for some definitions:

Omniscience: Knowledge of everything.
Omnipotence: The ability to do, cause, or perform any thing, event, or action.

The former of those two is the one that requires fate. An omniscient being can't take a "no action" with regards to his omniscience; he is all-aware. Period. He can't take a break. It's all or nothing, a passive ability. And it's one that requires a deterministic universe.

And that may be the case anyway, though not for any divine reason: just logically speaking, the world appears to be causally deterministic anway. But that's a completely separate discussion. What's relevant to this one is that if God exists, and God is omniscient, everything is preordained.

It would be horrifically lonely unless you had beings with free will to interact with. Although I'm not sure we can attach human emotions to God.

Again with the mixing-up-of-terms. Omniscience has nothing to do with this part. This part is about omnipotence. Even if every human being had free will, it doesn't affect the fact that if you were omnipotent, they'd be no more real than dreams.

No, I'm saying there's no good reason to think God (assuming he exists, which there's also no reason for) has done anything since the bible. Your "personal evidence" probably involves some really crappy reasoning, unfortunately, your mind accepts that.

Actually, it involves the guidance I ask for and receive from God. Since I actually do receive it, the reasonable thing to think would be that God does exist.

Actually, it involves the guidance I ask for and receive from God. Since I actually do receive it, the reasonable thing to think would be that God does exist.

And what form does this reciving take? Smoke signals?

And what form does this reciving take? Smoke signals?

Hardly. If it did, you'd be able to measure them, no?

No, God interacts with us spiritually and mentally. Unfortunately for you, there is no empirical measurement for that.

Hardly. If it did, you'd be able to measure them, no?

No, God interacts with us spiritually and mentally. Unfortunately for you, there is no empirical measurement for that.

Well brain activity yeah we can measure and record...and lot's of things mess with you mentally, how do you know it's from God?

Hardly. If it did, you'd be able to measure them, no?

No, God interacts with us spiritually and mentally. Unfortunately for you, there is no empirical measurement for that.

"Spiritually" being a word which has no meaning, no definition, and is basically just an empty nonconcept people toss around as if it actually signifies something. "Mentally" being something that is in fact empirically measurable.

That's assuming you believe in God. I don't. I was pointing out one of many problems with His supposed existence.
whatever you can have your beliefs and all that.


If he knew beforehand (which he would, being omniscient) than the driver had no choice in the matter - his actions were preordained. Knowing the future in absolute terms requires fate instead of free will.
He did have choice, you can say he had a fate but he chose his fate. There is nothing stopping him from chosing something else he just chose what God knew he would.


You're mixing up omnipotence and omniscience. Time for some definitions:

Omniscience: Knowledge of everything.
Omnipotence: The ability to do, cause, or perform any thing, event, or action.

I'm not. We're talking about both.


The former of those two is the one that requires fate. An omniscient being can't take a "no action" with regards to his omniscience; he is all-aware. Period. He can't take a break. It's all or nothing, a passive ability. And it's one that requires a deterministic universe.

And that may be the case anyway, though not for any divine reason: just logically speaking, the world appears to be causally deterministic anway. But that's a completely separate discussion. What's relevant to this one is that if God exists, and God is omniscient, everything is preordained.
No it doesn't it requires that you know the choices that will be made.
Another analogy, you have the choice between cherry ice cream and chocolate ice cream
I know you hate cherry and love vanilla, nothing stops you from chosing cherry but I know you'll chose vanilla and you do, I didn't cause you to chose vanilla I just knew you would.
God knows your choice but didn't cause it.

Humans have as much Free will as God if Omniscience means preordaination then God would also be preordained but he's omnipotent so he can choose to do anything.


Again with the mixing-up-of-terms. Omniscience has nothing to do with this part. This part is about omnipotence. Even if every human being had free will, it doesn't affect the fact that if you were omnipotent, they'd be no more real than dreams.
You chosen to give them free will so you don't control them. Can you choose to give your dreams free will?

"Spiritually" being a word which has no meaning, no definition, and is basically just an empty nonconcept people toss around as if it actually signifies something.
It is a concept you appearantly don't understand. You can't just call it a nonconcept because you don't have it as one.

It is a concept you appearantly don't understand. You can't just call it a nonconcept because you don't have it as one.

Give it an independent definition then. You'll be the first.

It is a concept you appearantly don't understand. You can't just call it a nonconcept because you don't have it as one.

Not really, it's just part of the mentality.

Give it an independent definition then. You'll be the first.
It is a feeling of some kind supernatural force or presence that you feel in your soul (take the soul metaphoricly if you want.)

whatever you can have your beliefs and all that.

My point was that your claims that I was calling myself an "object" rested on the baseless assumption that I believe in God, which I don't.

He did have choice, you can say he had a fate but he chose his fate. There is nothing stopping him from chosing something else he just chose what God knew he would.

If God knew he would, he didn't have a choice, did he? If God knows that it is *period* going to happen, and said event is in the future, than at the point where a nondeific actor actually does it he has no choice. His actions are foreordained.

I'm not. We're talking about both.

True, but you're using them practically interchangeably, rather than discussing them both but as separate concepts.

No it doesn't it requires that you know the choices that will be made.
Another analogy, you have the choice between cherry ice cream and chocolate ice cream
I know you hate cherry and love vanilla, nothing stops you from chosing cherry but I know you'll chose vanilla and you do, I didn't cause you to chose vanilla I just knew you would.
God knows your choice but didn't cause it.

AGAIN with the interchangeable usage of concepts. I never said, in discussion of this particular concept, that God caused it. I said it was FATE. There are two discussions going on. One involves omniscience and fate, the other omnipotence and God's control of everything. This is the former.

Humans have as much Free will as God if Omniscience means preordaination then God would also be preordained but he's omnipotent so he can choose to do anything.

And thus we get into a whole new topic: the endless paradoxes involved in omniscience and omnipotence, especially the latter. Can God create a stone that he can't lift? Can he make himself non-omniscient?

Well brain activity yeah we can measure and record...

On the large scale, yes, but not on the scale of individual thoughts, signals, and influences. There is no way to measure a given thought or, if it is given, guidance.

and lot's of things mess with you mentally, how do you know it's from God?

With 100% certainty? I don't. But I have no reason to think it is anything else. I'm not on drugs, I've got no chemical imbalances that I know of, and so forth.


"Spiritually" being a word which has no meaning, no definition, and is basically just an empty nonconcept people toss around as if it actually signifies something.

Kind of like "love", or "happiness". There are many aspects of human nature that we can't really pin down into a definition. That doesn't make them "nonconcepts".

"Mentally" being something that is in fact empirically measurable.

Show me how to measure anything more than a jumble of signals and where they are located in the brain. Show me how to measure exactly what perception those impulses invoke in the person.

You can measure impulses, nothing more. You cannot measure the actual perception they cause or are caused by - you can only ask. You cannot measure an individual thought or perception.

It is a feeling of some kind supernatural force or presence that you feel in your soul (take the soul metaphoricly if you want.)

Again: either utterly meaningless or with nonindependent meaning. A "feeling"? If you mean an emotion or perception, that's your mind. Referencing a supernatural force, how does one emotionally/mentally "feel" a force? Are you aware of the inherent logical contradictions in the very word "supernatural"? "That you feel in your soul"? What the hell is a soul? What makes it separate from the mind? What unique or independent characteristics does it possess? What exactly is it? What is its function?

Omniscience requires pre-knowledge, which is not the same thing as predetermination. Within the realm of our existence, we have free will, whether God is omniscient or not, because God is not directly causing our actions - we are deciding upon them. Now, those decisions are a result of our particular thought processes and experiences, and so on, and if someone really knew all the possible variables that go into that (ie. they were omnisicent), they could predict exactly what we would do. It wouldn't change the fact that we still had the option.

Well the problem with pre-knowledge comes down to pre-knowledge of what. If someone knows what your going to do before you do it is there really a choice involved? If god knows I'm going to go get a coke when I go to my class was free will involved when I got the coke or was the action already known to happen and because of that no choice was involved?

Well the problem with pre-knowledge comes down to pre-knowledge of what. If someone knows what your going to do before you do it is there really a choice involved? If god knows I'm going to go get a coke when I go to my class was free will involved when I got the coke or was the action already known to happen and because of that no choice was involved?

To you, there very much is a choice. The only way that pre-knowledge could do away with free will is if each individual had pre-knowledge of every action they would ever take. If a being outside of the universe knows what you will do before you do it, that doesn't remove the choice from you.

Edit: I won't even get into the idea that God is, in fact, outside of time, and thus "pre-" and "post-" have no meaning in a discussion of God.

To you, there very much is a choice. The only way that pre-knowledge could do away with free will is if each individual had pre-knowledge of every action they would ever take. If a being outside of the universe knows what you will do before you do it, that doesn't remove the choice from you.

Edit: I won't even get into the idea that God is, in fact, outside of time, and thus "pre-" and "post-" have no meaning in a discussion of God.

It doesn't matter if we have the ilusion of free will present to us Dem. To have pre-knowledge of what will happen implies that what will happen is already written in stone. Otherwise how can you truely be omniscent and know everything if the future isn't written in stone and it is up to chance?

It doesn't matter if we have the ilusion of free will present to us Dem. To have pre-knowledge of what will happen implies that what will happen is already written in stone. Otherwise how can you truely be omniscent and know everything if the future isn't written in stone and it is up to chance?

Omniscience of any being isn't necessary to make free will, in the end, illusory. From any perspective but your own, you have no free will. All one needs is a deterministic universe - something that just about everyone believes we are in. Science completely relies upon the universe being deterministic, in fact.

Let me ask you this:

Do you believe, if we knew every connection in your brain and how they worked, every variable that could possibly affect your decision, and how your decisions were made, that we could accurately predict whether you would get a coke or a sprite? Or do you think that there is true randomness?

Edit: In other words, you don't need any being with pre-knowledge for the universe to be, at its root, deterministic. And, if the universe truly is deterministic, then there is no free will, at least not in the way that you are using it.

Result, there is no hell or god is not All Good or god is not All Powerful.I'm not Christian, but still, I have I problem with this logic.

A being is hardly omnipotent if it does not have the power to control its own level of power over itself and others. If a being can only excercise absolute control over all things at all time, then it is not omnipotent, because it lacks the ability to control its own power.

I agree with your other points, though. Something that most homophobes ignore is that everyone sins, but one of the few truly unforgivable sins is not to forgive the sins of others.

On a different note, I think that the most effective punishment for "sinners" would be to have the weighted guilt of their crimes crawl in their minds for their eternal afterlife in what seems otherwise to be a perfect society. Their only punishment would be what they did unto themselves as a result of their lack of consideration. A punishment that would only last until they understood what they had done wrong, though, to be existentialist, once they are dead, there is no redemption from their otherwise-ignored sins.

So yeah. And stuff.

Omniscience of any being isn't necessary to make free will, in the end, illusory. From any perspective but your own, you have no free will. All one needs is a deterministic universe - something that just about everyone believes we are in. Science completely relies upon the universe being deterministic, in fact.

Let me ask you this:

Do you believe, if we knew every connection in your brain and how they worked, every variable that could possibly affect your decision, and how your decisions were made, that we could accurately predict whether you would get a coke or a sprite? Or do you think that there is true randomness?

Edit: In other words, you don't need any being with pre-knowledge for the universe to be, at its root, deterministic. And, if the universe truly is deterministic, then there is no free will, at least not in the way that you are using it.

You're absolutely right. Even without a God, the universe is still causally deterministic. Our free will is an illusion, albeit a convincing one. I was arguing that if God existed, that would lead to the same result: a deterministic universe.

Omniscience of any being isn't necessary to make free will, in the end, illusory. From any perspective but your own, you have no free will. All one needs is a deterministic universe - something that just about everyone believes we are in. Science completely relies upon the universe being deterministic, in fact.

Let me ask you this:

Do you believe, if we knew every connection in your brain and how they worked, every variable that could possibly affect your decision, and how your decisions were made, that we could accurately predict whether you would get a coke or a sprite? Or do you think that there is true randomness?

Well on the omniscience of any being isn't necessary to make free will illusory doesn't seem to fit when your talking about god. I'm not talking about you or myself suddenly knowing everything. We are talking about the supposed thing that created the whole existence we live in.

I'm not refering to the brain when it comes to the future dem. I'm saying that if a god knows everything and I mean everything as omniscience entails then that means that in order to know the future it has to be written in stone or as Free mercentile stated fate. If god knows that your going to walk out the right side of your house on April 17 2058 from the begining of time and on April 17, 2058 you walk outside the right side of your house was free will really involved? I don't think omniscience can really work with the concept of free will when it comes down to it.