NationStates Jolt Archive

Hmm...
Tell me whats different between believing in god and say, schizophrenia?
Im interested and im not trolling even though it may appear i am but it seems to me that if people believe in a big invisible dude that sees everything you do and is magick they need to be locked up.

PS
If you say "Religion isnt as harmful as schizophrenia" or something like that then you are in need of an enema.
KKK
Crusades
Ectect rofllmaoroxorz ...
yes indeed.

Also, note the Dorrean Gray version of christianity.

Christians believe in afterlife and reward.
Christians do good.
CHRISTIANS DO GOOD FOR REWARD!!!! ARGH no reward for you.

So only atheists and agnostics have ANY chance really.

I don't understand. Are you comparing belief in God to being schizophrenic (sp?) or are you comparing belief in God to believing that schizophrenia exists? The former, I assume...

Also, note the Dorrean Gray version of christianity.

Christians believe in afterlife and reward.
Christians do good.
CHRISTIANS DO GOOD FOR REWARD!!!! ARGH no reward for you.

So only atheists and agnostics have ANY chance really.


Areyou saying that people can only be either Christian, atheist or agnostic?

Easy, I don't run around denying God's nonexistance because I know there isn't proof either way. :)

EDIT: Wait, that wasn't my argument.

EDIT2: Alright, schizophrenia is a medical condition anyway. God is taught through teaching and etc. and blah blah.

And besides, God isn't a figure just hanging around your couch...eating up your food...drinking all your soda...fucking Johnny, get out of my house!


I mean, if someone told you and everyone else that a guy named Jack lived in your house, and everyone else believed it too, and you were constantly exposed to it EVERY BLOODY DAY, then you'd have faith in Jack too.

Areyou saying that people can only be either Christian, atheist or agnostic?

No i am not, its just an example sorry.


Yeh, i would like someoen to point out the difference between Faith and a mental illness pelase.

Schizophrenia is a diagnosable, measurable illness which involves a known abnormality in the brain.

Faith, on the other hand, is none of the above.

Now, if you are asking if faith might be invoked by a chemical reaction in the brain (albeit, not an abnormal one, since most human beings seem to have religious experience at some point in their lifetime), rather than by anything outside themselves, this is certainly possible, and cannot be discarded as a possible explanation.

Of course, that still wouldn't excuse the obvious flamebaiting you are doing here by using schizophrenia, rather than any other normal occurance in the brain, such as dreaming.

Fair enough.
I used shizophrenia because it leaped to mind.



Faith IS diagnosable, you ask someone if they believe in something spiritual.

Ok, point out how its flaming :)
Theres no anger behind my posts nor sarcasm.
I put it to you that you just love saying it in an attempt to CAUSE a flame.
Hah.
So your a flamebaiter.

Faith as a mental condition?

Yeah probably.

Point and case: in the 'biblical era' people ran around saying they were prophets and preaching to the masses about things that didn't make sense. Now when people do that we put them in an institute.

We also put people on trial who kill because 'god told them to'.

Looking at those two examples, it seems that faith in the magical invisible voice that controls your fate is a mental disease.

Have any of you travelled all the way around the world? Have any of you worked out the mathematical equations to prove that one can travel all the way around the world?

I doubt it, so why do accept that the earth is round. Because you trust, or have faith in, the scientists and explorers who have done so. You have taken the evidence and based a belief that most of you have not proven on that evidence. That is no different from what schizophrenics do or Christians do.

Schizophrenics have the evidence of "voices" or whatever and base a belief on that evidence.

Christians have the evidence of Scripture and nature and base a belief on that evidence.

Hmm...
Tell me whats different between believing in god and say, schizophrenia?
Im interested and im not trolling even though it may appear i am but it seems to me that if people believe in a big invisible dude that sees everything you do and is magick they need to be locked up.

PS
If you say "Religion isnt as harmful as schizophrenia" or something like that then you are in need of an enema.
KKK
Crusades
Ectect rofllmaoroxorz ...
yes indeed.
Ok, you kind of are trolling here, and that makes me sad because there's actually a valid point hidden under the trolling.

Based on current psychological standards, belief in the literal existence of supernatural beings SHOULD be classified as a mental illness.

It currently IS considered insane to believe that leprechauns are talking to you, but it is NOT considered insane to believe that God is talking to you...unless you do something society doesn't like, at which point they retroactively decide that you were crazy after all.

Faith as a mental condition?

Yeah probably.

Point and case: in the 'biblical era' people ran around saying they were prophets and preaching to the masses about things that didn't make sense. Now when people do that we put them in an institute.

We also put people on trial who kill because 'god told them to'.

Looking at those two examples, it seems that faith in the magical invisible voice that controls your fate is a mental disease.
People believe what they want to believe. If somebody tells you that there's, say, a computer sellout and you need a new computer since your old one suffered spontanious cumbustion symptoms, you'll be happy to believe them right? Then you go to the store and find out there never was a discount. Oh well. But what if you never found out there wasn't a discount and you just tried to get there? That's cost you some time, oh no!, but you had hope for a cheap computer. It's kind of a stupid materalistic comparison but it's too late.

Also, don't get too extreme. We also lock up people who kill politicians because they want anarchy/power to the people. There's also sensible anarchists, there's always the extremes (generally a bunch of fucking morons) and normal people (like you and me).

Have any of you travelled all the way around the world? Have any of you worked out the mathematical equations to prove that one can travel all the way around the world?

Well, yes, but even if I hadn't done either one then I would still have stood at the top of a very high tower in the Great Plains and seen the curve of the Earth with my own eyes.


I doubt it, so why do accept that the earth is round. Because you trust, or have faith in, the scientists and explorers who have done so. You have taken the evidence and based a belief that most of you have not proven on that evidence. That is no different from what schizophrenics do or Christians do.

Misleading. It is possible for any human to verify the claims of those who have observed that the world is round. It is not possible to empirically verify any claims about supernatural beings, nor is it possible to share in another individual's hallucinatory experiences. It is not possible to verify anything other than that the person in question believes they have experienced a particular event.

Though I do very much approve of how you equate schizophrenics with Christians. :)


Schizophrenics have the evidence of "voices" or whatever and base a belief on that evidence.

Indeed. Their perceptual equipment is "malfunctioning," and they are actually behaving totally rationally from their perspective. They are responding to inputs in the best way they know how.


Christians have the evidence of Scripture and nature and base a belief on that evidence.
Unless you are prepared to argue that Christians are experiencing a physiological illness, I don't think you can make the comparison between schizophrenics and Christians here.

Fair enough.
I used shizophrenia because it leaped to mind.

And I wonder why....

Faith IS diagnosable, you ask someone if they believe in something spiritual.

That is what we call self-diagnosis, and it is looked at with EXTREME skepticism by the scientific community, and with good reason. Asking someone what they believe/feel/etc. is not a measure of anything that is actually there.

I could ask the guy who just robbed the bank if he robbed the bank and he will say, "No." Does that mean, then, that he didn't do it? Of course not. If I ask someone, "Are you selfish," only the most Randian will say yes, no matter how selfish they actually are.

When it comes right down to it, self-diagnosis is what we go to when there truly is no way to measure something, and all we can do is fall back on asking.

That is what we call self-diagnosis, and it is looked at with EXTREME skepticism by the scientific community, and with good reason. Asking someone what they believe/feel/etc. is not a measure of anything that is actually there.
Which is to say Atheists and Theists really have no idea what's going on in the head of one another, not to mention even themselves.

And I wonder why....



.


Cos my daddy was a Schizo and ran my mummy over with a car.

No i am not, its just an example sorry.


Yeh, i would like someoen to point out the difference between Faith and a mental illness pelase.


Well you said only atheists and agnostics have a chance - a chance at what?

As for faith, all people choose to believe things on the word of others all the time. We all accept stuff that just sounds right to us. I am willing to bet that you never tested half of the stuff you think you "know" for a "fact".

Does the speed of light exist? What is it? Have you tested this claim for accuracy or do you believe it because many reputable scientists have claimed that they proved it to be fact. I mean they teach it in science class right? Yes, I know that this probably isn't a good example as you can actually go test the claim for accuracyif you really wanted to. Maybe I should have used a historical event or something *shrug*

Not sure if you see where I am going or not.

Personally I didn't believe in God/Source/Whatever until I had an experience of the oneness of all things (still I didn't join a religion as I think they are all bollocks). I experienced all energy as having consciousness. I don't know how to put it into words and it doesn't really matter to me if you believe it or not. I am just trying to help you understand that things like faith aren't so easily explained in terms of mental illness and that faith isn't just for the religious. Many people take stuff as truth all day long on faith.

Some people grasp at common explanations for the unexplainable to help them deal with reality better... a ghost can be a spirit or it could be a hallucination. What if two people saw the ghost? Well then it must have been light reflecting off of some glass somewhere or something else, but definitely not a spirit.

I actually think you are trolling but that is the best I can do as an explanation for you just in case you were just being tactless but serious.

Perhaps my experiences of God were all just me being completely mental but I can't deny my experiences because they were too real for me to write off as mental illness, but I gain joy from it so that's all that really matters to me.

Well, yes, but even if I hadn't done either one then I would still have stood at the top of a very high tower in the Great Plains and seen the curve of the Earth with my own eyes.


Misleading. It is possible for any human to verify the claims of those who have observed that the world is round. It is not possible to empirically verify any claims about supernatural beings, nor is it possible to share in another individual's hallucinatory experiences. It is not possible to verify anything other than that the person in question believes they have experienced a particular event.

Though I do very much approve of how you equate schizophrenics with Christians. :)


Indeed. Their perceptual equipment is "malfunctioning," and they are actually behaving totally rationally from their perspective. They are responding to inputs in the best way they know how.


Unless you are prepared to argue that Christians are experiencing a physiological illness, I don't think you can make the comparison between schizophrenics and Christians here.

I'm not comparing the evidence they use or how they come to their beliefs.

The question is how does one know what evidence is correct? My earlier argument (I still stand by it) shows how every belief or opinion we have is based on something. Now how do we decide on which evidence to base our beliefs or opinions?

We can, as you said verfiy the existance of the curve of the earth: through sight, math, etc. But that still doesn't change the fact that you have faith that your eyes are working, your calculator is working, etc. The schizophrenic has faith that his ears or mind is working normally, when in fact it is not.

The Christian has faith that Scripture is inspired by God (yes, some moderninsts disagree. I'm a traditionalist/conservative) and faith that nature could not be without a God and because of this faith has faith in other things as well.

Now whose evidence is to be believed? In the schizophrenic's case, are we to believe the doctor who believes in the results of these tests? Why does s/he have faith in the results? Because s/he has faith in the test. Why? Because of faith in the tester and test-maker. Why? Because of faith in the schooling of these persons. Why? Because of faith in education. Why? Because of faith in the educators' education. Why?

See? It keeps going. The schizophrenic's evidence isn't much better, just shorter.

The Christian has faith in infallibility of Scripture. Why? And the cycle repeats. It comes down to in what your faith is rooted. For the Christian, God. For the schizophrenic, feeling. For the atheist, man/chance. All faiths are rooted in something. That something determines how you interpret all the evidence you have. That determines what you believe. Which determines how you act.

Id also like to point out an alarming occurance :p


People who are depressed turn to god.
Therefore this could be considered a trigger that releases chemicals and unhinges the mind!
HAHA! gotcha!

Id also like to point out an alarming occurance :p


People who are depressed turn to god.
Therefore this could be considered a trigger that releases chemicals and unhinges the mind!
HAHA! gotcha!
I believe this is a case of deciding on the 'truth' first and then trying to fit the evidence around that.

Why not do a little research first, and then post your ideas in a more coherent thread?

Hmm...
Tell me whats different between believing in god and say, schizophrenia?
Im interested and im not trolling even though it may appear i am but it seems to me that if people believe in a big invisible dude that sees everything you do and is magick they need to be locked up.

PS
If you say "Religion isnt as harmful as schizophrenia" or something like that then you are in need of an enema.
KKK
Crusades
Ectect rofllmaoroxorz ...
yes indeed.
ohyeah, Crusades, well we better ban democracy to, 'cause, you know, back in ancient Rome they killed people over that shit! eventhough it was actually not a real democracy. Anyway, anybody answering my previous post? :/

People who are depressed turn to god.
And drugs, suicide, sex, whores, internet forums, psycologists, pharmaceuticals, et cetera.
You're about as logical as the Bible.

Accrammia']ohyeah, Crusades, well we better ban democracy to, 'cause, you know, back in ancient Rome they killed people over that shit! eventhough it was actually not a real democracy. Anyway, anybody answering my previous post? :/
Depends what it said. :p

Which is to say Atheists and Theists really have no idea what's going on in the head of one another, not to mention even themselves.

Well, when it comes right down to it..... =)

My fiance is an atheist. I am a theist. I will never completely understand his viewpoint, and he will never completely understand mine. Interestingly enough, however, we get along just fine without insinuating that something is "wrong" with the other.

I believe in that invisible dude for some reason. I dunno. Just something inside of me, I can't prove or explain it, so don't expect me to.

I don't believe the church or the bible have anything to do with him(/her), though.

Not just emotionally, but logically, spiritually, and mentally, I can't imagine there not being some sort of creator. My personal image of him being a santa-like character with an awesome sense of humor - I don't push that image onto anyone else, it's just what I've come to imagine him to be, though I'm ready to realize otherwise if it turns out to be something completely different.

We know nothing about the spiritual - it's all speculation and self-discovery, and it'll never be anything other than that until we die and find out for ourselves if there's really anything out there.

Before I had this philosophy I felt empty inside, apathetic, depressed, lonely. Generally unmotivated to do anything except breathe just enough to continue living. It might sound pretty stupid, but learning about myself and feeling the way I do about the world gave me a purpose - that purpose being to spread the word that we're all one and we should love and respect eachother. Something that simple, you think we'd have gotten that down by now, but apparently not.

I'm not saying that's the ultimate goal of this creator, whoever it may be, because I honestly have no idea what its purpose or reasoning was for creating us other than my own speculation that he thought we'd be pretty entertaining and he was getting lonely without us. What do you get for an omnipotent and all-knowing being of the universe who already knows and has everything? Everything else. We're essentially a series of really good re-runs from his favorite show, the characters of which he knows very well, and is waiting for us to finish acting and come back to him.

Much like when a yo-yo is thrown - the purpose being so that the thrower can see and feel the action of the yo-yo as it flies outward and spins, sometimes showing flashy lights, sometimes remaining stationary so that he can maneuver tricks into it, but regardless of why its thrown or what happens afterward, it always comes back, the warmth of its friction mixing with the warmth of his hand as he holds it tightly, as if to say "Welcome back. Had fun?".

You could classify Faith as a mental illness only if you decide that your references are the only correct ones to be used for reference. It is all about perception, maybe we simply don’t have the eyes to see jack and are scared by another’s ability to see him. So we bind him and feed him drugs until he’s just like us, for better or for worst.

Faith in itself while irrational is not a disease. I have faith in the goodness of mankind. Can I hold that goodness? Touch that goodness? No, it’s an idea, but I believe that goodness exists, am I crazy for believing in an intangible? I would hope not, since so many ideas and forces are intangible. Consider happiness, I don’t believe in happiness, so logically anyone who does believe in that emotion must be crazy and deceiving themselves, because my point of reference tells me that there is no happiness. The argument can be rehashed any number of ways and we can’t truly decide what is real or what is real if you decide to call peoples beliefs a form of illness. For mankind is irrational, and to penalize him for being so is to take away his humanity.

Yes believing in a giant Sky Fairy may strike some as insanity, but then again, so is the very reality we live in. A constant mush of contrary themes and beliefs that frequently clash in a never ending struggle for supremacy. That strikes me as an insanity.

My fiance is an atheist. I am a theist. I will never completely understand his viewpoint, and he will never completely understand mine. Interestingly enough, however, we get along just fine without insinuating that something is "wrong" with the other.
I'm in a similiar - but not nearly as committed - relationship at present. There is nothing wrong with Theistism or Atheistism, as they are merely different, and in my opinion, respectable beliefs. Not to mention it really doesn't matter as long you two get along. There's so much better things to enjoy in life than bickering over whether there is, or isn't, a higher cosmic power - that is wholly imcomprehenable to the human mind - steering the universe!