NationStates Jolt Archive

Sorry if this has been beaten into the ground by other threads already (I haven't seen those threads, so that's why this is here), but I'm just getting frustrated by this issue. This will probably not all be in order, but more along the lines of thoughts I have about this issue.

Illegal immigration.

So much debate is going on right now. For me, I wish it could be black and white: if your here illegally, you should be rounded up and sent back to wherever and not allowed in unless you apply legally. Yet if we deport most or all of the illegals, prices would go up on things such as agricultural products. To further complicate things, passing a bill with a provision allowing the illegals already here is the same things as amnesty, telling them that "hey, you broke our laws, but that's okay because we need your votes!"

I found this a little more than ironic to me: ""If we don't protest they'll never hear us," said Oscar Cruz, 23, a construction worker who marched among the estimated 50,000 in San Diego. Cruz, who came illegally to the U.S. in 2003, said he had feared a crackdown but felt emboldened by the large marches across the country in recent weeks.

In Birmingham, Ala., demonstrators marched along the same streets where civil rights activists clashed with police in the 1960s and rallied at a park where a statue of Martin Luther King Jr. stands as a reminder of the fight for equal rights and the violence that once plagued the city.

"We've got to get back in touch with the Statue of Liberty," said the Rev. Lawton Higgs, a United Methodist pastor and activist. "We've got to get back in touch with the civil rights movement, because that's what this is about.""

While I agree that illegal immigrants are people, this doesn't make immigration reform the same as the Civil Rights Movement. The blacks and their supporters were here to begin with, and were generally treated not much better than they had been as slaves a hundred years earlier. These people come to a different country illegally, slipping past the border, in order to find work here, and then demand that they get the same rights as those born here!

In a way, my sediments are summed up by this: "In Salt Lake City, Jerry Owens, 59, a Navy veteran from Midway wearing a blue Minuteman T-shirt and camouflage pants, held a yellow "Don't Tread on Me" flag.

"I think it's real sad because these people are really saying it's OK to be illegal aliens," Owens said. "What Americans are saying is 'Yes, come here. But come here legally.' And I think that's the big problem.""

Sorry for the rant, I'm just getting fed up by this issue some. Yes, I believe that there needs to be changes made in this issue. I also think that there needs to be stiffer penalties for those caught in the US illegally and those that hire them intentionally. This will all probably come off as me being racist, and the only thing I can against that thought is to say that I'm not, but I don't know how many would actually believe me.


Oh, almost forgot. Related link where I got the quotes, from a Yahoo! story. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060410/ap_on_re_us/immigration_protests


Anyway, your comments, questions, angry retorts?? I really want to talk about this!!

I had typed up a long rant.
But, I will save myself the time of responding to all the crap that will fill this thread.

I hope you die racist bastards, die.:upyours:

There that just about covers everything.

To the Thread Starter:
That is not directed at you unless the shoe fits.

I had typed up a long rant.
But, I will save myself the time of responding to all the crap that will fill this thread.

I hope you die racist bastards, die.:upyours:

There that just about covers everything.

To the Thread Starter:
That is not directed at you unless the shoe fits.
Who are the racist bastards?

I cant get off easy can I?

The simple minded feebs who would place a wall on the Mexican Border...I know that expansive desert and river and fence are not obstacles enough.

Those sneaking brown people keep getting in and working.
Dirty Mexicans always working, and for low wages too, bastards.

Now of course the laughably soft Canadian border--eurocentric bias-- is perfectly safe...I mean human traffic crosses it constantly....you cna walk across with out any fear of even being noticed....an in the spring and summer the walk will be pleasant.

I know all those AlQeada Terrorists crossed over the Mexican border so it is safer to block out the brown people...dirty brown people....wait, no we let those guys in....no matter....we can just paint as a national security issue.

No matter that much of our economy depends on those illegal workers....the only time in histroy it didnt was during the great depression...but lets not cloud the issue with facts....this is about dirty brown people.


Anyone who thinks stoping immigration into this country is a good idea, is a racist bastard, hypocrit-too.

Anyone who says the Minutemen are "Good Amercians" is a Racist Bastard.

You can pretty much run the connections from their.....and yes I am generalizing because in general if you affirm to thsoe things you are I would say with some certainty in general a racist bastard.

I am tired of inbred slack jaws and Stormfronters talking about the Illegals are ruining the country. Immigrants both legal and illegal built this country and continue to provide it strength, not weakness.

I cant get off easy can I?

The simple minded feebs who would place a wall on the Mexican Border...I know that expansive desert and river and fence are not obstacles enough.

Those sneaking brown people keep getting in and working.
Dirty Mexicans always working, and for low wages too, bastards.

Now of course the laughably soft Canadian border--eurocentric bias-- is perfectly safe...I mean human traffic crosses it constantly....you cna walk across with out any fear of even being noticed....an in the spring and summer the walk will be pleasant.

I know all those AlQeada Terrorists crossed over the Mexican border so it is safer to block out the brown people...dirty brown people....wait, no we let those guys in....no matter....we can just paint as a national security issue.

No matter that much of our economy depends on those illegal workers....the only time in histroy it didnt was during the great depression...but lets not cloud the issue with facts....this is about dirty brown people.


Anyone who thinks stoping immigration into this country is a good idea, is a racist bastard, hypocrit-too.

Anyone who says the Minutemen are "Good Amercians" is a Racist Bastard.

You can pretty much run the connections from their.....and yes I am generalizing because in general if you affirm to thsoe things you are I would say with some certainty in general a racist bastard.

I am tired of inbred slack jaws and Stormfronters talking about the Illegals are ruining the country. Immigrants both legal and illegal built this country and continue to provide it strength, not weakness.
wow, you really feel strongly about this. Well, let me just say that regardless of what you think of the minutemen, their behavior has been outstanding. Call them vigilantes if you want, but there hasn't been one credible case of violence at their hands. There isn't a fence on the canadian border because canadians aren't coming over in thousands to work in the US.

Illegal immigrants drive down the wages of lower and middle class americans. Saying that people who are against illegal immigrants are racist is just distracting from the real issue.

These people come to a different country illegally, slipping past the border, in order to find work here, and then demand that they get the same rights as those born here!

so the set of rights you are eligible for are subject to accident of birth, some paper work, and a bunch of fees?

The amount of services they recieve in a country in which they pay NOTHING and the citizenry fails to benifit? Yes, there's a limit on what they should receive. Not to mention the little fact that THEY ARE HERE ILLEGALLY.

What is so hard to understand about that concept? They are breaking the law. There is a process to come here in a LEGAL manner. They decide to they shouldn't have to do what MILLIONS of people have done for the last two hundred years.

Calling people "racist bastards" for wanting the borders guarded is just stupid and narrow minded. There aren't MILLIONS comming across the Canadian border like there are the Mexican border. Do I think the Canadian border should be guarded? Absolutely. However, it's not nearly as much of a problem area as the border with Mexico. You know, that country whose Army has been found to be smuggling drugs into the United States?

I don't care what damned color you are. Yellow, black, brown, red, white, blue with yellow polkadots. If you're trying to get here illegally your ass should be thrown into prison for a bit before you're tossed right back to your country of origin.

I've never posted here before, but I have to say, these people do pay for services that they don't recieve. They have to pay sales taxes, they have to have chunks of their pay check payed towards social security, which they will never recieve.
They come here for a better life, not just for themselves, but their families. It's heroic, even if it's illegal. Would you not do the same?
And also, Canadians do cross over in the thousands, but nobody cares because they blend in with all the other white people.
I know that's generalizing, but it's true.

so the set of rights you are eligible for are subject to accident of birth, some paper work, and a bunch of fees?
Part of the bargain in enjoying the protections of the law in a republic is submitting to the law. If the Illegal immigrants from mexico want to have their cake and to eat it too. Fine. Take it out of the hide of mexico, again. How'd that first Mexican American war work out again? It's pretty clear what the precedence is for nations who fail to control their sides of the border with the United States.

The fact of the matter is illegal aliens (without asylum cases) steal the opportunities of better more worth while people. People willing to submit to the laws and join the community of the United States. The economic argument is a joke, they're an anchor to progress just as slavery was. That they choose it for themselves because they're used to such shitholes does little to improve it's desirability. To say nothing of the great disproportion to which they consume intensive government services. The idea that their chances at opportunity are more deserved than those opportunities for others they dispalce simply because they're displaced from central american shitholes as opposed to other parts of the world is what's racist.

Fuck them. They want presents just because? Me first. Scrap NAFTA, punative tarrifs for everything coming in and out of Mexico to pay for the services the non-law abiding citizens of central america consume, mine the boarder, sieze and auction their crap, kick them out. Once there is no reward for breaking the law no one will foolishly risk their lives sneaking in to the country. They might even be able to install functional governments which serve them at home, obviating the desire completely. The whole world will be better for it.

I had typed up a long rant.
But, I will save myself the time of responding to all the crap that will fill this thread.

I hope you die racist bastards, die.:upyours:

There that just about covers everything.

To the Thread Starter:
That is not directed at you unless the shoe fits.

It is so easy to be a dumb ass these days, instead of making a rational argument supported by facts you can just call people racist bastards and be done.

Just so you guys know, its not just white people who want to stop illegal immigration. The majority of hispanic americans don't want the illegals here either. So the issue of immigration IS NOT an issue of race.

I had typed up a long rant.
But, I will save myself the time of responding to all the crap that will fill this thread.

I hope you die racist bastards, die.:upyours:

There that just about covers everything.

To the Thread Starter:
That is not directed at you unless the shoe fits.
So you are saying anyone opposed to illegal immigration is a racist bastard?That Americans don't have the right to secure their own borders or protect their own people?

The problem here is that there are basicly two sides:
1. Some people are in favor of no border protection. These are either extremely liberal or nationalistic Hispancs, well usually.

2. Others want our laws to be respected. The difference between a legal immigrant and an illegal immigrant is that one broke the law while the other took the time and effort to come here legally.

This is not an issue of race. We are at war against an enemy that has no uniform or government. WE are at war against an enemy who hurts their enemy by targetting and killing third parties. They will stop at nothing to kill westerners, particularly Americans. If an innocent poor person can cross what is supposed to be a heavily guarded border with almost no aid, why can't armed terrorists? Terrorism knows no unifrom, religion, race, or government. Right now, much of the western world is struggling to take out the Islamo-fascists. The last thing we need is a big hole in our defences.

I cant get off easy can I?

The simple minded feebs who would place a wall on the Mexican Border...I know that expansive desert and river and fence are not obstacles enough.

Those sneaking brown people keep getting in and working.
Dirty Mexicans always working, and for low wages too, bastards.

Now of course the laughably soft Canadian border--eurocentric bias-- is perfectly safe...I mean human traffic crosses it constantly....you cna walk across with out any fear of even being noticed....an in the spring and summer the walk will be pleasant.

I know all those AlQeada Terrorists crossed over the Mexican border so it is safer to block out the brown people...dirty brown people....wait, no we let those guys in....no matter....we can just paint as a national security issue.

No matter that much of our economy depends on those illegal workers....the only time in histroy it didnt was during the great depression...but lets not cloud the issue with facts....this is about dirty brown people.


Anyone who thinks stoping immigration into this country is a good idea, is a racist bastard, hypocrit-too.

Anyone who says the Minutemen are "Good Amercians" is a Racist Bastard.

You can pretty much run the connections from their.....and yes I am generalizing because in general if you affirm to thsoe things you are I would say with some certainty in general a racist bastard.

I am tired of inbred slack jaws and Stormfronters talking about the Illegals are ruining the country. Immigrants both legal and illegal built this country and continue to provide it strength, not weakness.
Its not about brown skin. It's about the drug dealers, violent criminal gangs, and human traffickers who sneak in with the people who want to come here to make a legitimate living. We have to secure the border and require background checks to prevent the wrong types from coming in. In recent years, American citizens have been violently attacked illegal immigrant gang members and abducted by human traffickers who grab them and take them back to Mexico to be forced into slavery. Even the illegal immigrants often end up being slaves once they get here. Immigration reform will prevent that.
It has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with security. Not just for Americans but for the immigrants themselves.
Especially when you have people illegally coming in from Mexico who then start shooting at our border patrol and at our police.
We don't have a whole bunch of slave traders crossing in from Canada either. While there may be one or two drug dealers from Canada selling pot in the northern states, that's nothing compared the thousands of Mexican drug dealers selling worse and more lethal drugs in California, Arizona, Texas and the other southwestern states.
That's why we need background checks of anyone wanting to immigrate to America. Not just Mexicans but Europeans too, since we know that Europeans have been joining Al Qaeda.
There is no proof what ever that our economy is entirely dependent on illegal immigration. I challenge you provide evidence of that. Cause there isn't any. Just garbage pro illegal propaganda.
You are not racist but you are clearly anti American.

wow, you really feel strongly about this. Well, let me just say that regardless of what you think of the minutemen, their behavior has been outstanding. Call them vigilantes if you want, but there hasn't been one credible case of violence at their hands. There isn't a fence on the canadian border because canadians aren't coming over in thousands to work in the US.

Illegal immigrants drive down the wages of lower and middle class americans. Saying that people who are against illegal immigrants are racist is just distracting from the real issue.
Not to mention that Minutemen are not even committing acts of violence against illegals. Unless you consider doing humanitarians things like giving them food and water to be acts of racist violence against illegals.

so the set of rights you are eligible for are subject to accident of birth, some paper work, and a bunch of fees?
actually its dependent on your citizenship. If you are not US citizen you don't have the same rights as a US citizen.

I've never posted here before, but I have to say, these people do pay for services that they don't recieve. They have to pay sales taxes, they have to have chunks of their pay check payed towards social security, which they will never recieve.
They come here for a better life, not just for themselves, but their families. It's heroic, even if it's illegal. Would you not do the same?
And also, Canadians do cross over in the thousands, but nobody cares because they blend in with all the other white people.
I know that's generalizing, but it's true.
You're wrong about social security. If they are from Mexico, they are recieving social security benefits because of President Bush. He made a backroom deal with his best friend in the whole world, Mexican President Vicente Fox. Hell, the amnesty thing that people are ranting against, is Bush's idea. He wants the illegals here. He wants to give them amnesty and guest worker status. He is the best friend the illegals will ever have in the US. Yet the advocates of illegal immigration keep bashing their best hope, the President of the United States who is actually on their side. Kind of ironic don't you think? No wonder the advocates of illegal immigration don't have any real support in this country.

The fact that something is illegal does not make it wrong. Breaking the law may be by far the lesser of two evils in this case. Especially if the law is unjust. And arguably some aspects of US Immigration law are.

The fact that something is illegal does not make it wrong. Breaking the law may be by far the lesser of two evils in this case. Especially if the law is unjust. And arguably some aspects of US Immigration law are.

If the law is unjust, it should be changed. It should never be ignored.

actually its dependent on your citizenship. If you are not US citizen you don't have the same rights as a US citizen.

so rights aren't things that all humans are born with?

If the law is unjust, it should be changed. It should never be ignored.

when the laws are unjust, then wouldn't justice be found by not obeying them?

Hell, the amnesty thing that people are ranting against, is Bush's idea. He wants the illegals here. He wants to give them amnesty and guest worker status. He is the best friend the illegals will ever have in the US. Yet the advocates of illegal immigration keep bashing their best hope, the President of the United States who is actually on their side.

the creation of a government mandated permanent underclass of indentured servants is worse than what we have now.

when the laws are unjust, then wouldn't justice be found by not obeying them?

If you, as an individual, want to defy an unjust law, be my guest. Maybe if you raise enough of a stink you can get the law changed, though you might spend some time in the slammer in the meantime. But when the government starts ignoring its own laws, we have a problem. That's when we get illegal wiretaps and people getting tossed in jail without trials.

But when the government starts ignoring its own laws, we have a problem. That's when we get illegal wiretaps and people getting tossed in jail without trials.

is it the ignoring of the law as written that's the problem there? or would it still be wrong even if they changed the law to make it legal?

Not to mention that Minutemen are not even committing acts of violence against illegals. Unless you consider doing humanitarians things...:D :D :D you are so funny..

the law.. should never be ignored.
I ignored the Law thousands of times.

Millions of people are ignoring the law on a daily basis.. and I do not care.
sometimes.. I even support them..
.

I cant get off easy can I?

The simple minded feebs who would place a wall on the Mexican Border...I know that expansive desert and river and fence are not obstacles enough.

Those sneaking brown people keep getting in and working.
Dirty Mexicans always working, and for low wages too, bastards.

Now of course the laughably soft Canadian border--eurocentric bias-- is perfectly safe...I mean human traffic crosses it constantly....you cna walk across with out any fear of even being noticed....an in the spring and summer the walk will be pleasant.

I know all those AlQeada Terrorists crossed over the Mexican border so it is safer to block out the brown people...dirty brown people....wait, no we let those guys in....no matter....we can just paint as a national security issue.

No matter that much of our economy depends on those illegal workers....the only time in histroy it didnt was during the great depression...but lets not cloud the issue with facts....this is about dirty brown people.


Anyone who thinks stoping immigration into this country is a good idea, is a racist bastard, hypocrit-too.

Anyone who says the Minutemen are "Good Amercians" is a Racist Bastard.

You can pretty much run the connections from their.....and yes I am generalizing because in general if you affirm to thsoe things you are I would say with some certainty in general a racist bastard.

I am tired of inbred slack jaws and Stormfronters talking about the Illegals are ruining the country. Immigrants both legal and illegal built this country and continue to provide it strength, not weakness.

Yes, immigration is good, and much of our service economy is built on the hard labor and good work of many "brown" as you so eloquently described them, immigrants. However, before you go off and call people racist bastards, you need to read up on American history.

"A Country of Laws, Not Men...." yadda yadda yadda.

The fact remains that these people break the law. They are people, yes, and are decent, by and large. However unless Congress passes a law saying that anyone can come work here, and that effective tomorrow, we have no immigration laws, the law states that illegal immigration is a crime, to be punishable with deportation. Now my personal feelings on the law are another matter, but that doesn't change it.

"A Country of Laws...." yadda yadda yadda.G-u-a-n-t-a-m-o ..and others

I ignored the Law thousands of times.

Millions of people are ignoring the law on a daily basis.. and I do not care.
sometimes.. I even support them..
.

Yes, I've ignored certain laws too. Speeding being the obvious example. But that doesn't make it right, and when I get caught, I deserve what I get.

I cant get off easy can I?

The simple minded feebs who would place a wall on the Mexican Border...I know that expansive desert and river and fence are not obstacles enough.

Those sneaking brown people keep getting in and working.
Dirty Mexicans always working, and for low wages too, bastards.

Now of course the laughably soft Canadian border--eurocentric bias-- is perfectly safe...I mean human traffic crosses it constantly....you cna walk across with out any fear of even being noticed....an in the spring and summer the walk will be pleasant.

I know all those AlQeada Terrorists crossed over the Mexican border so it is safer to block out the brown people...dirty brown people....wait, no we let those guys in....no matter....we can just paint as a national security issue.

No matter that much of our economy depends on those illegal workers....the only time in histroy it didnt was during the great depression...but lets not cloud the issue with facts....this is about dirty brown people.


Anyone who thinks stoping immigration into this country is a good idea, is a racist bastard, hypocrit-too.

Anyone who says the Minutemen are "Good Amercians" is a Racist Bastard.

You can pretty much run the connections from their.....and yes I am generalizing because in general if you affirm to thsoe things you are I would say with some certainty in general a racist bastard.

I am tired of inbred slack jaws and Stormfronters talking about the Illegals are ruining the country. Immigrants both legal and illegal built this country and continue to provide it strength, not weakness.

I agree. Good point about the Canadian border: Canadian marijuana is better than Mexican marijuana, and it's easier to bring into the US.

It's illegal to smoke, but I've never heard someone call a marijuana user an "illegal." Why not?

Yes, I've ignored certain laws too. Speeding being the obvious example. But that doesn't....Are you a Criminal?

Are you a Criminal?

Technically, yes. Though I've paid (literally) for some of my crimes.

..I've paid (literally) for some of my crimes.what you mean to say is you paid When/if-you-get-caugh.

...dont you?

what you mean to say is you paid When/if-you-get-caugh.

...dont you?

Which is why I've only paid for some of my crimes. :p

Are you a Criminal?..yes...Well.. I do not consider myself a Criminal.. even if I probably ignored more laws than you.

And I do NOT consider the (millions of) Chinese.. "Criminals".. for breaking Internet access laws.

We have the same problems in the UK with illegal immagrants, mainly from Africa or Eastern Europe coming over under the trains or in the back of loories on the Eurostar train between us and France.

Well, I'm glad people are responding, was what I wanted to happen.


Like I said in my opening post, I wish this issue could be black and white. If they break the law by being here illegally, then they should be sent back, no questions asked.


One thing that helps complicate it though is that whenever people talk about immigrants being illegal, some people automatically jump to the race issue by calling them racist. I do not believe I am a racist by mearly pointing out the obvious, which is that for the past 20-30 years, a huge majority of immigrants coming here illegally are from Mexico, Central, or South America. Immigration to the USA has come in waves from areas, such as the Germans and Irish in the 1830s and around there, as well as the Chinese and other Asian groups in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Pointing out that Hispanics are the major group of immigrants that are now in the US illegally does not make me a racist. It just makes me obvious.


Another thing that is somewhat related to this is when the INS is sweeping through an area, they have to take extra precaution to point out that they are not after some specific group or such when doing a raid. Yet in the paper, I read almost daily about how at least two or three people are here illegally, protesting to get the same rights I have as a naturally born citizen, yet are afraid that they will be caught. It angers me some that these people are protesting against our laws while being here illegally, yet scream rasict when the INS comes to try to send them back.


I know some illegal immigrants do pay taxes and for services. That's a fact, and I know it. However, I have not seen anything that has said that EVERY illegal immigrant pays taxes or for services that I do. That is what riles me some.


I don't really see how a law that says come here legally, and if you don't we're going to send you back, as being an unjust law that is worthy of being ignored or protested. Kinda seems pretty simple and obvious to me, but that's only because I was born here, follow the laws of the land pretty much, and am a white male. I'm sure that's what's got to do with it. :rolleyes:


I kinda find it ironic that everyone assumes whenever illegal immigration is brought up that the southern US border is the conclusion, even though many get into the country illegally through Canada (though not nearly as much as from Mexico) and in the ports. Is this because we're all racists in the US, and want only white people living here? Some might be, but I think the majority of people just are being obvious.


Okay, enough of my ranting and stuff for now. Respond!

I've never posted here before, but I have to say, these people do pay for services that they don't recieve. They have to pay sales taxes, they have to have chunks of their pay check payed towards social security, which they will never recieve.
They come here for a better life, not just for themselves, but their families. It's heroic, even if it's illegal. Would you not do the same?
And also, Canadians do cross over in the thousands, but nobody cares because they blend in with all the other white people.
I know that's generalizing, but it's true.
That's not always the case. Construction is one area where cash payments are the rule. The company/contractor doesn't withhold payroll taxes and doesn't pay into Workmen's Comp. But he can get a gang of eight or ten framers for half the price of legal workers. When one of them is injured on the job, does the State pay for the medical care? Of course not. It's just another one of those unrecoverable costs that drive up the prices for all of us.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060411/ap_on_re_us/immigration_protests_37;_ylt=AjPQjCL6z4pL2880txXCW2tQuk0A;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12250356/

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060410/ap_on_re_us/immigration_protests_24;_ylt=AjkdqrsH1TGj1KcVrYD7EXNQuk0A;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl


Some more stories about people marching.

Taken from the third link:

Nineth Castillo, a 26-year-old waitress from Guatemala, said she has lived in the United States for 11 years "without a scrap of paper."

Asked whether she was afraid to parade her undocumented status in front of a massive police presence, she laughed and said: "Why? They kick us out, we're coming back tomorrow."


Several hundred people gathered in Lexington, Ky., where demonstrators waved American flags and signs that read "We were all immigrants once," and "We are not terrorists."

True, practically everyone in the country can be called an immigrant at time. But the difference is that most of them came here legally in the first place, or tried to become legal citizens within 5 years of getting here. I've found it commonplace to read of people being here 10, 15, 20 years or more, don't know a single word or English, and demand that they be treated as citizens. Makes me angry inside that I am expected to obey the law, yet they can seeminly get away with it.

Taken from the second link:

Cruz Luna, his wife and their four children all wore T-shirts reading “God Bless America” at a demonstration in Pensacola, Fla. The two oldest children — ages 8 and 9 — were born in Mexico and are in the U.S. illegally; their younger siblings, ages 4 and 8 months are U.S. citizens.

“We want to send a strong message today, a message that we want the laws to be fair,” Luna said.

I have been under the understanding that the laws have been fair. You apply from your home country, fill out some papers, maybe pay a $50 fee, wait a little bit, and get an answer. Sounds pretty fair to me.

Also from the second link:

In Champaign, Ill., hundreds of demonstrators marched along a busy street to the University of Illinois campus, carrying signs with slogans such as: “The pilgrims had no green cards.”

As someone who studies history, this makes me laugh. The pilgrims were settlers who came to an area of land that was relatively uninhabited (I'm making this simple, not trying to ignore the fact that yes there were Indians already here).

Again, the second link:

“Go to jail!” shouted William Hazzard, 58, a retired school custodian from Harrisburg. “I’m from Germany and I had to give up my rights as a German citizen. I had to speak English.”

While I don't agree with the jail part, he has a point.


Finally, from the first link:

"We love this country. This country gives to us everything," said Florentino Cruz, 32, an illegal worker from Mexico who has been in the United States since 1992. "This country was made by immigrants."

Well lookey, someone who's been in the US for 14 years, yet still is illegally here. You'd think that SOMEWHERE in those 14 years he would have found time to become a legal citizen. But guess what, he's still here illegally and now demanding for rights devoted to a citizen! Incredible.


And lastly:

Supporters in San Diego planned to hold a ceremony to honor immigrants who died while illegally crossing the border.

Yes, let's make mayrters out of them. They bravely gave up their lives to get to a country illegally, courageously giving that country the finger to the legal way of immigrating to the country that many millions of other people have done for the past 150 years. Sheez. :rolleyes:

Who is organizing the "Let's take back America" rallies? Immigration YES, illegal immigration HELL NO.

Who is organizing the "Let's take back America" rallies? Immigration YES, illegal immigration HELL NO.I appoint you to the Job.
You are the man !!
Lead us to the Victory over the Immigrants..
You can do it..
:D :D ;) :D

Okay, so who here talking about how incredibly incredibly important it is to immigrate LEGALLY as opposed to illegally, has immigrated to the US? Or known anyone who has in recent years? Speak up, tell us all about the process.

I appoint you to the Job.
You are the man !!
Lead us to the Victory over the Immigrants..
You can do it..
:D :D ;) :D

Do I detect more than a smattering of sarcasm?

Ok, here's my take on immigration:

We need to end it, as in immediately and in all forms, legal or illegal. And we need tigher border security. How to get this tighter security? Bring the troops home from Iraq, the Middle East in general, Europe, South Korea, Japan, and anywhere else they are stationed which is not under the direct control of the United States of America and is being used to defend said states from aggression. Then we station this thousands of soldiers on the border, both Northern and Southern, and bring the Navy back home to patrol the coastlines with the Coast Guard. We also have a massive public works project on the Southern border, in which we build a massive fence/wall fortification, as that seems to be our biggest source of illegal immigration. Guard towers every 1000 yards or so with snipers and watchmen stationed in the towers, electric fences with minefields of both anti-personal and anti-armor varity, and patrolling soldiers. We can back up the fence about 20 yards from the border and anyone who gets within 10 feet of the fence can expect to be shot, most likely in the head, possibly more than once. The Canadian border will have equally high restrictions, perhaps a wall should be built there as well, although that would take much longer and be much more expensive, in the end it will be worth it IMO. At sea we can also place some more solid defenses in trouble areas, perhaps building coastal walls in areas like southern Florida where their is a lot of illegal immigration. Furthermore, the Air Force will also be involved, making sure nothing gets into American airspace without proper clearance. When we are constructing things perhaps some coastal and border anti-air devices should be set up. With the mounting impossiblity to come into this country without being killed on the way here I think that should solve the immigration problem. Which, also solves our terror problem, as their are only so many terrorists who might already be in the country, and with no more being able to come in, something tells me terrorism would go wayyy down. Our citizens and our nation can be secure. Also this will decrease overpopulation, as most of the current population growth is actually coming from immigration, a very small amount from reproduction in America. With current birth rates the population would grow very slowly. This solves or at least lessens problems with overpopulation. Also, as a taxpayer, I would feel much better being able to see my tax dollars going to the military at work protecting me, not off in some random country fulfilling some imperialistic agenda. Tourism in this country would be very carefully watched, as some tourists may want to stay, and that defeats the purpose of the entire plan.

Sorry for ranting a little bit there. That's my take on immigration in the US of A.

EDIT: And for illegals and legals already in the country, they will be given the choice to become citizens or return to their homes.

One of the big stumbling blocks of the Bush administration was after they started putting resources towards securing their border. There was great outrage about keeping Mexicans from entering America illegally. Part of the outrage came from the US businesses that make huge profits by exploiting the cheap labour pool provided by illegal immigrants. By validating the fact that there are jobs that Americans won’t do, you are growing the problem not addressing it. I think that if the government was serious about keeping out illegal immigrants from Mexico they would crack down on sweat shops and the farms that are structured around the flow of Mexicans into America.

If you don’t address this then you’re only attacking the symptom and not doing a good job of it. If there are jobs that Americans won’t do because the pay is below the minimum wage then maybe the government should think about making a more serious effort to step in and sort out the businesses that prey on humanity in this way.

Over 400 Mexicans died trying to cross the border (usually dying in the desert crossings) and it’s expected that 1 in 1000 people attempting to sneak in die in the attempt. Only 1 in 3 is believed to be caught and most try again soon after they are released. The US government is trying to showcase the technology being used to stop illegal immigrants but given the size of the problem it’s just window dressing and the window got left open.

Documentaries talking to people on the ground bring an amazing story of a huge fence that has to be repaired daily, because they are sawing through the fence all the time in preparation to break through. On one ranch, while talking to the owner, several vans full of Mexicans drove by, over a matter of an hour, all looking for a place to cross over the not very impressive wire fence marking the border. Law enforcement officers in border towns state that more than one third of their resources are tied down dealing with illegal immigrants. A Blackhawk pilot probably got into trouble for saying that it doesn’t matter if they doubled their efforts on the border, because it wouldn’t make a difference in the sea of immigrants coming over the border every day.

The Bruce

Ok, here's my take on immigration:

We need to end it, as in immediately and in all forms, legal or illegal. And we need tigher border security. How to get this tighter security? Bring the troops home from Iraq, the Middle East in general, Europe, South Korea, Japan, and anywhere else they are stationed which is not under the direct control of the United States of America and is being used to defend said states from aggression. Then we station this thousands of soldiers on the border, both Northern and Southern, and bring the Navy back home to patrol the coastlines with the Coast Guard. We also have a massive public works project on the Southern border, in which we build a massive fence/wall fortification, as that seems to be our biggest source of illegal immigration. Guard towers every 1000 yards or so with snipers and watchmen stationed in the towers, electric fences with minefields of both anti-personal and anti-armor varity, and patrolling soldiers. We can back up the fence about 20 yards from the border and anyone who gets within 10 feet of the fence can expect to be shot, most likely in the head, possibly more than once. The Canadian border will have equally high restrictions, perhaps a wall should be built there as well, although that would take much longer and be much more expensive, in the end it will be worth it IMO. At sea we can also place some more solid defenses in trouble areas, perhaps building coastal walls in areas like southern Florida where their is a lot of illegal immigration. Furthermore, the Air Force will also be involved, making sure nothing gets into American airspace without proper clearance. When we are constructing things perhaps some coastal and border anti-air devices should be set up. With the mounting impossiblity to come into this country without being killed on the way here I think that should solve the immigration problem. Which, also solves our terror problem, as their are only so many terrorists who might already be in the country, and with no more being able to come in, something tells me terrorism would go wayyy down. Our citizens and our nation can be secure. Also this will decrease overpopulation, as most of the current population growth is actually coming from immigration, a very small amount from reproduction in America. With current birth rates the population would grow very slowly. This solves or at least lessens problems with overpopulation. Also, as a taxpayer, I would feel much better being able to see my tax dollars going to the military at work protecting me, not off in some random country fulfilling some imperialistic agenda. Tourism in this country would be very carefully watched, as some tourists may want to stay, and that defeats the purpose of the entire plan.

Sorry for ranting a little bit there. That's my take on immigration in the US of A.

Wow! Giving up all of America's interest, her allies, leaving her maritime shipping to the whims of fates and other nations, turning the nation into a literal garrison state - all for what? OVERPOPULATION?

Your entire plan could be accomplished by FUCKING WITH MORE CONDOMS.

:headbang:

[Immigration YES, illegal immigration HELL NO.

so if we got everyone granted amnesty and then opened the border up to all peaceful people, you'd be fine with that, right? cause you care deeply about the legal status of some paperwork, right?

Do I detect more than a smattering of sarcasm?Well.. someone gotta lead the Anti-immigration Forces.. Why not you? ;)

http://rjmolloy.com/images/uncle-sam.jpg
Uncle Sam wants you!!

I think that one of the main problems is the exploitation of Mexican immigrants by Mexican people smugglers (charging about $2000 a person) and the exploitation they can expect by American businesses, sweatshops and farm gangs. The fact that illegal immigration has become practically an accepted part of US life shows that they have lost complete control over their southern border.

The other huge problem is that fact that organized crime from Mexico and other countries in Latin America is following the immigrants, as any successful parasite does. Every group of immigrants has had the problem of organized crime following the to the Promised Land. In Mexico the problem is made worse by the fact that so many illegal immigrants are coming over the border that it’s hard to tell who’s who.

Ok, here's my take on immigration:

We need to end it, as in immediately and in all forms, legal or illegal. And we need tigher border security. How to get this tighter security? Bring the troops home from Iraq, the Middle East in general, Europe, South Korea, Japan, and anywhere else they are stationed which is not under the direct control of the United States of America and is being used to defend said states from aggression. Then we station this thousands of soldiers on the border, both Northern and Southern, and bring the Navy back home to patrol the coastlines with the Coast Guard. We also have a massive public works project on the Southern border, in which we build a massive fence/wall fortification, as that seems to be our biggest source of illegal immigration. Guard towers every 1000 yards or so with snipers and watchmen stationed in the towers, electric fences with minefields of both anti-personal and anti-armor varity, and patrolling soldiers. We can back up the fence about 20 yards from the border and anyone who gets within 10 feet of the fence can expect to be shot, most likely in the head, possibly more than once. The Canadian border will have equally high restrictions, perhaps a wall should be built there as well, although that would take much longer and be much more expensive, in the end it will be worth it IMO. At sea we can also place some more solid defenses in trouble areas, perhaps building coastal walls in areas like southern Florida where their is a lot of illegal immigration. Furthermore, the Air Force will also be involved, making sure nothing gets into American airspace without proper clearance. When we are constructing things perhaps some coastal and border anti-air devices should be set up. With the mounting impossiblity to come into this country without being killed on the way here I think that should solve the immigration problem. Which, also solves our terror problem, as their are only so many terrorists who might already be in the country, and with no more being able to come in, something tells me terrorism would go wayyy down. Our citizens and our nation can be secure. Also this will decrease overpopulation, as most of the current population growth is actually coming from immigration, a very small amount from reproduction in America. With current birth rates the population would grow very slowly. This solves or at least lessens problems with overpopulation. Also, as a taxpayer, I would feel much better being able to see my tax dollars going to the military at work protecting me, not off in some random country fulfilling some imperialistic agenda. Tourism in this country would be very carefully watched, as some tourists may want to stay, and that defeats the purpose of the entire plan.

Sorry for ranting a little bit there. That's my take on immigration in the US of A.

EDIT: And for illegals and legals already in the country, they will be given the choice to become citizens or return to their homes.

I see. I'm sure that embodies the freedom of America wonderfully! Nevermind all of the people living in border communities who would feel like they're under martial law. Being in Michigan, not far from places where you can visably see Canada, I would not like to see the U.S.S. Isolationism Rocks cruising up and down the Detroit River harassing the hundreds of boaters that would otherwise be enjoying themselves. I'm sure the people of the south would just love a massive fortified wall to look at every morning while they have coffee with snipers and bombs and what-not.

As for the problem, what is the problem? Is it too hard to come here? People have always been able to come here, so why has it changed? If it is prohibitantly difficult to come in legally, then we should make it easier. You MUST do it legally though, otherwise we have all these undocumented people running around who technically don't exist to us. I mean, its kind of disrespectful that your very first act in America is disobeying the law... Hell, build some recruiting centers in Mexico and make a bus service bringing immigrant in for all I care if that stops the illegal immigration. I don't understand the issue with coming in legally. Why must they break the law? Maybe more incentive for legal immigration is needed, like "You don't get deported and you get a free Happy Meal from the local McDonald's. Welcome to America, soon you too can have a heart attack."

You all do understand the reason people are protesting is the proposed bill in congress would make illegal aliens felons. Considering how full our prison systems are as it is, this is very unwise. How do you expect to jail/deport 11 million people? How much money are you willing to pay for a 2,000 mile wall? Also this bill would make anyone who helps an illegal a felon as well, such as an employer.

Also, it's not as easy to get into the U.S. as you all like to think. You have to apply for a visa, and your application will take years to go through the system, because your in a line behind THOUSANDS of other people who wish to do the same. Out of those people, they have a lottery, so if your name gets pulled out of the hat after waiting for five years... you MIGHT get to come after all!

"In order to allow for those who do not pursue immigrant visas, more 'winners' are selected in the lottery than there are visas available. Hence being selected from the lottery does not guarantee an immigrant visa to the US."

This nice easy system is explained here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_Immigrant_Visa)

a quick quiz:

what percentage of the u.s. population was born in a different country in 1900?
what percentage of the u.s. population was born in a different country now?

What percentage of the population were immigrants in the 1600's?

so if we got everyone granted amnesty and then opened the border up to all peaceful people, you'd be fine with that, right? cause you care deeply about the legal status of some paperwork, right?

Gee, I wonder why no one responded to this?

Gee, I wonder why no one responded to this?
Aside from the fact that it's a fairy tale premise? After all, sans paperwork means we're not checking whether or not, at all, people are peaceful.

Yes, if the world was made of cotton candy, and if all the super-awesome people from all over were able to be accomidated by the US without increasing the strain on the economy, progress, or government services we could all be super-awesome best friends together and the laws would and should reflect that. But since we don't live in super happy fun magic land, are contrived premisies which function only with pixi dust and pony wishes really worthy of serious consideration?

As it stands we're subsidising failed and failing governments out of the goodness of our hearts. Isn't it enough that we secure the world's sealanes enough? Illegal immigrants make life harder for poor americans and immigration more difficult and less certain for legal immigrants. How about, for once, the law breakers get a kick in the ass, and the people who follow the law see some benefit for it beyond an awareness of their own integrity.

The same right of a nation to control its boarders that the US expects to be recognized, is the same right that keeps the marines out of Mexico City while we iron out the shape and area of our new states. If the rest of the mexicans want to become refugees and live somewhere south of Panama, I'm all for amnesty. But that's pretty much the only circumstance under which I favor it, considering the spectacular failure amnesty has been.

a quick quiz:

what percentage of the u.s. population was born in a different country in 1900?
what percentage of the u.s. population was born in a different country now?

well?

Gee, I wonder why no one responded to this?

yeah, me too

Yes, if the world was made of cotton candy, and if all the super-awesome people from all over were able to be accomidated by the US without increasing the strain on the economy, progress, or government services we could all be super-awesome best friends together and the laws would and should reflect that. But since we don't live in super happy fun magic land, are contrived premisies which function only with pixi dust and pony wishes really worthy of serious consideration?

evidence that additional people is bad for the economy, progress, or government services? 'cause here was me thinking that the nations going into flat or negative population growth (such as the u.s. without it's immigrant population) are all concerned about the problems that's going to cause.

You know, considering how long it can take to become a citizen (10 years or more in some cases), I can't help but think maybe part of the problem is with the system, not the immigrants themselves.

Also, I doubt they're taking away that many opportunities. I mean, unless you wanna pick your own fruit or something...

And from what I understand, the majority of illegal immigrants in this country aren't even Mexican. So why all the focus on Mexico, specifically?

And if you're that worried about the job thing, why not go to the source, and start enacting tougher laws against companies who hire illegals, instead of the illegals themselves?

And our immigration policies are quickly heading towards those of countries like France. I think we all know how well that's worked for them. The last thing we need is riots.

Making the borders into a police/military zone would keep out illegal immigration, but it would be more of a strain on the civilians working there, who would feel like they were under martial law, which has already been pointed out.

Yes, the buerocracy is slowing things down, which is a problem that needs to be rectified, the sooner the better. But that doesn't look like its going to happen anytime soon. What gets me upset about illegal immigration is that some people feel that they are exempt from the laws.

Free Soviets, I don't know the %'s to the questions you asked, but I kinda don't care because there are those that wait the time it takes to get here legally (and I'm guessing this number is well into the many millions) versus those that eschew the law, come here, probably don't make an attempt to gain legal status (I'm sure some do, but I would also guess that many don't), then demand that we treat them the same as law abidding citizens.

I'm not wanting to take away the fact that they are humans and have rights to certain things. Yet these people feel that they are free to break the law, scream 'racist' if I ever bring up the fact that they should be here legally or deported, and get more help from the government than I ever will! Laws are usually there for a reason, and are usually just (most of the time, I feel they are in this country). What gives these people the right to ignore our laws, laws that I am expected to obey?

If I went to Mexico, El Salvador, or Brazil, if I broke the law either by being there illegally or a law against stealing or murder (just throwing things out), I would expect to have the police on my ass and me thrown in jail. I'd probably be worse off in one of their jails compared to here, but I wouldn't be demanding to have health care or not to pay taxes if I tried to live there illegally, because those governments would laugh their asses off at me.

Yes, the buerocracy is slowing things down, which is a problem that needs to be rectified, the sooner the better. But that doesn't look like its going to happen anytime soon. What gets me upset about mlk jr. and pals is that some people feel that they are exempt from the laws.

minor change made. can anyone spot it?

It seems to me it boils down to a simple premise:

Do we want criminals immigrating into the US?

Given that the answer is, without a doubt, no, then the obvious answer is to remove all of these illegal immigrants, write down their names, and deport them. Then inform them that anyone caught twice will be subject to a ten year prison sentence and PERMANENT disbarment from ever legally entering the country or becoming a citizen.

This is not a minor crime. It's a federal felony.

As for people's rights, well, there is no right to US citizenship, or to be in the United States. I could go to the Australian Army recruiting office today and sign my name - and POOF! my US citizenship disappears instantly. Likely never to be regained.

If we are serious about immigration, we' have to think about serious penalties for breaking the law.

a quick quiz:

what percentage of the u.s. population was born in a different country in 1900?
what percentage of the u.s. population was born in a different country now?

well?

aww, come on

This is not a minor crime. It's a federal felony.

if the state declared jaywalking to be a felony, would it cease to be a 'minor crime' too? how about chewing gum in public?

But if I weren't, I'd ask the question "What happens next?"

I mean, if the migrants that have invaded the U.S. are made legal residents all of a sudden, where is the cheap labor? These newly legal residents and guest workers are going to refuse to be paid under the table. Now, the payroll taxes are collected and the employer starts paying his share, too. The crew that cost a contractor $250 per hour has just become a $500 per hour crew. So much for the contractor's advantage over those that only employ legal residents.

So we prepare the way for the next round of illegal migrant workers. If we don't stick it to the employers that hire illegals, we will never see the end of this problem.

It seems to me it boils down to a simple premise:

Do we want criminals immigrating into the US?

Given that the answer is, without a doubt, no, then the obvious answer is to remove all of these illegal immigrants, write down their names, and deport them. Then inform them that anyone caught twice will be subject to a ten year prison sentence and PERMANENT disbarment from ever legally entering the country or becoming a citizen.

This is not a minor crime. It's a federal felony.

As for people's rights, well, there is no right to US citizenship, or to be in the United States. I could go to the Australian Army recruiting office today and sign my name - and POOF! my US citizenship disappears instantly. Likely never to be regained.

If we are serious about immigration, we' have to think about serious penalties for breaking the law.
That has to be the stupidest thing I've ever read on these forums.


Really.



Immigrants are an unparalleled boom for any economy. Any sensible method would allow anyone into (or out of) the country at any time. As a sop to the border security freaks, let's militarize the border and register those who come in and out/do cursory background checks. Besides that...


(Hint: Just because you can waive a right does not mean that it does not exist. You do have a right to citizenship. Read the constitution)


Free Soviets:
I'd gather the percentage in the 1900's was around 20%+ (in cities). Higher then today's number by far.

if the state declared jaywalking to be a felony, would it cease to be a 'minor crime' too? how about chewing gum in public?

damn straight. What's ridiculous is you comparing illegal immigration to chewing gum or jaywalking... but if they made them a felony, so be it.

On another subject matter, but something that happened in this thread. I thought it was against the ToS to quote someone and then change it.... I could be mistaken, but i thought i read that in a diff thread.

damn straight. What's ridiculous is you comparing illegal immigration to chewing gum or jaywalking... but if they made them a felony, so be it.

you're right - jaywalking at least has the possibility of causing real problems.

you don't honestly hold that whatever the state declares to be a serious wrong is, do you?

That has to be the stupidest thing I've ever read on these forums.


Really.



Immigrants are an unparalleled boom for any economy. Any sensible method would allow anyone into (or out of) the country at any time. As a sop to the border security freaks, let's militarize the border and register those who come in and out/do cursory background checks. Besides that...


(Hint: Just because you can waive a right does not mean that it does not exist. You do have a right to citizenship. Read the constitution)




I'm quite well read on the constitution. There is no such right. I am automatically extended the franchise and citizenship by birth - but if anyone from outside wishes to become a citizen, the way is long and sometimes hard. And every nation on earth reserves the right to refuse to allow someone to become a citizen.
And if someone wishes to come to the US and work, I'm all for it. Provided they do so legally.
These protestors are spitting on our laws and our nation. They are demanding to be allowed to break our laws with impunity and without consequence. I would prefer to see them deported and never allowed to return.

And if someone wishes to come to the US and work, I'm all for it. Provided they do so legally.

*smacks head*

Let them all in to work, then. Or just let everyone in. Then you have no need for any kind of wasted money on border control. Why waste money doing a shit job of it now?