NationStates Jolt Archive

tonite.. I finally got to see the much-talked about BBC report by pallast.. it actually was short review of the Chavez Gov.. with the highlites of the Interview..

Yes they did talk about the $50 dollar proposition and about Venezuela taking over Saudi Arabia.. and about Canada becoming an Oil powerhouse..

But 4 other facts advanced by the BBC are Interesting..

#1< Chavez Gov is providing better health care and Better Education.
#2< Chavez Gov has reduced Venezuela Poverty levels by ONE THIRD !!
#3< 1.5 million Venezuelans have recently been saved from Illiteracy.
#4< Venezuela is currently giving the most Aid in the "Americas", The US is in second place.

numbers #2 and #4 are new to me.. I am surprised.

The Chavez BBC article was followed By
#1 a Report on the Very strong CHINA-BRAZIL ties.
#2 a Report on a Town discovered on Peru(Coral?).. as old as the Egyptian Civ.

other interesting/fun bits ..

When the Cowboy del Norte comes to the rescue of Chavez :p

When Chavez encourages the Gringo Reportero to try to speak some espanol :D

When Chavez Sings a-la Gardel..

Yah, but the beeb is publicly owned, so it's full of flag-waving commie traitors, right?

Personally, I don't see why the US/EU has a problem with Hugo Chavez, just because he spends oil profits on welfare programmes and not his own pockets, like the Saudi Royal Family. Personally, I'd welcome a Chavez-esque Prime Minister over here, not these Blairite closet conservatives.

Personally, I don't see why the US/EU has a problem with Hugo Chavez, just because he spends oil profits on welfare programmes and not his own pockets, like the Saudi Royal Family.

Perhaps THIS (http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/wire/sns-ap-venezuela-dutch-caribbean,0,5584784.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines) is going to create a problem. The Dutch will be very cross if Chavez doesn't invade the the Dutch Antillies. We have to find another way to get rid of them. Pssst eh gringo.... wanna buy some islands full of Bolivian Power Powder?

Also, Hugo Chavez has 83% support in his country.
Also,gave 40% discount on oil to the disadvantaged american comunities. Take that anti-chavez propaganda!
The man is a legend. South america is where its at! hopefully same will happen in europe.

The American government has a problem with him because he controls 14% of thier oil, and they dont like strong lefties to be that powerful, especiall ones who stand up to bush as often as good old Hugo.

I'm generally, mostly a leftie so I should really be behind Chavez but there was always something that made me not trust him. There was alwats something that made me fearful for his people and it took me ages to figure out what it is. Chavez is a politician! The bastard!

#1< Chavez Gov is providing better health care and Better Education.
#2< Chavez Gov has reduced Venezuela Poverty levels by ONE THIRD !!
#3< 1.5 million Venezuelans have recently been saved from Illiteracy.
#4< Venezuela is currently giving the most Aid in the "Americas", The US is in second place.

1. But it still sucks.
2. Are those absolute poverty levels, or relative poverty?
3. How many are still illiterate?
4. This is aid as a percentage of GDP. The US still gives more aid in actual dollars, which is what counts.

Also, have they spoken at all about Amnesty's allegations of murders of opposition members?

Also, have they spoken at all about Amnesty's allegations of murders of opposition members?
Link?

Killings of Opposition Supporters in Venezuela (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/02/19/venezu5323.htm)

State Control of Media (http://hrw.org/press/2003/06/venezuela062303-ltr.htm)

List of Missing Persons and Politicla Prisoners (http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200403020624)

1. But it still sucks.
2. Are those absolute poverty levels, or relative poverty?
3. How many are still illiterate?
4. This is aid as a percentage of GDP. The US still gives more aid in actual dollars, which is what counts.

1) Its still improving (ie, going in the right direction)
2) Chavez's policy is about RELATIVE poverty - eliminate the oligarchs pandering to the US government and transnational companies.
3) It getting less everyday.
4) It is not what counts % of aid is more important, how silly to think other wise. What country would you consider more benevolent - a country donating 10% of its tiny GDP, or 0.08% of its huge GDP? hmmm. Seems the more you have, the harder to share it.

But its not good to have human rights violations going on. But perhaps thats best judged by the UN rapporteurs on the matter than a US based pressure group who ignored Economic, Social and Cultural rights for 50 years.

1. Please provide proof. And what does 'improving' mean in terms of healthcare? More people receiving it? More quality? More money spent on it?
2. Umm. Interesting, that. Technically, North Korea has less relative poverty then the United States. Where would you like to live? Ah, thought so.
3. How many are illiterate? Can you provide statistics from independent sources?
4. Really? If you were a poor nation, what would you rather receive? A 0.05% of the US GDP or 10% of the Venezuelan GDP? The Christian story about the poor widow's gift is just that - a story.

Killings of Opposition Supporters in Venezuela (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/02/19/venezu5323.htm)

State Control of Media (http://hrw.org/press/2003/06/venezuela062303-ltr.htm)

List of Missing Persons and Politicla Prisoners (http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200403020624)

Thank you.

The third on your list appears to be from a website dedicated to purely slating Chavez and his supporters. Fair enough, but I take what they say with a pinch of salt. A lot of those political prisoners appear to have FREED next to their name, an oddity given a coup had taken place against him.

The first link to HRW is about an article a few years old. I am trying to find an up to date article to see if anything has been done about it.

As for state control of the media, it is worrying, but there are non state media outlets in the country. So that arguement doesn't hold with me.

As for
1. But it still sucks.
2. Are those absolute poverty levels, or relative poverty?
3. How many are still illiterate?
4. This is aid as a percentage of GDP. The US still gives more aid in actual dollars, which is what counts.

I must say:
1) Great well thought out point. I never thought about it like that- it still sucks- my eyes are now open.
2) Either way, it has improved.
3) How many less are illiterate now?
4) No, it would count more if the US gave a higher percentage of GDP... it being the richest place on earth. But that's another story for another thread.

But its not good to have human rights violations going on. But perhaps thats best judged by the UN rapporteurs on the matter than a US based pressure group who ignored Economic, Social and Cultural rights for 50 years.


Ignoring that economic etc. rrights are an entirely insane marker, let's look at another [FOURTH] civil rights organisation:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR530052004?open&of=ENG-VEN

Mongooses: I replied to your point above.

Ignoring that economic etc. rrights are an entirely insane marker, let's look at another [FOURTH] civil rights organisation:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR530052004?open&of=ENG-VEN

I don't doubt the veracity of such organisations. I believe when HRW, UN, Amnesty Int, IRC say stuff is happening- then it is happening.

I'm looking around the world, and even at the countries we hold up to be lights in the world and bastions of good- they have files in those NGO's too. Nobody is perfect. Nobody here is claiming Venez or Chavez's govt is perfect.

Bottom line: The people of his country voted him in and kept him there democratically- in elections that were deemed fair and fine by the above.

Every country has skeletons in the closet- some countries try to help the majority and Chavez is getting recognised for at least trying to help to already poor people in the country. If he screws up, they'll be the ones to throw him out, for their reasons.

I guess there's no difference for you between the human rights abuses committed by Chavez, and by, say, Chirac or the leader of Luxembourg? (I have no idea who that is). Or the Icelandic leader?

Chavez is nothing more than a genocidal son of a bitch. He has put nothing into his nations health or welfare systems cause he is doing nothing but supporting terrorists groups, and buying expensive weapons for his million man army. He allows youth who support America to abducted at gun point from Venezuelan streets and taken to torture chambers in Cuba and in secret locations in Venezuela itself. The sooner he is ousted the better off the people of Venezuela will be.

I guess there's no difference for you between the human rights abuses committed by Chavez, and by, say, Chirac or the leader of Luxembourg? (I have no idea who that is). Or the Icelandic leader?

If Chirac and Plantic or Johansson have committed human rights abuses then so be it- it will be found out. I'm not saying Chavez is perfect, in fact something about him doesn't sit well with me- but he's sticking to the Constitution and not turning into a authoritarian leader (yet) and the only people who should have a say in his leaving are the people of Venez.

I am concerned with human rights abuses in so far as I don't like seeing prisoners being kept interned for no reason, in prisoners being abused, in young rioters being arrested, disarmed and then being beaten away from the public eye, in homosexuals being persecuted.

But then again, what effect have HRW, Amnesty, IRC et al, had on the United States, the United Kingdom and Iran?

but he's sticking to the Constitution and not turning into a authoritarian leader (yet)

You mean apart from repeatedly violating it, reportedly stacking the electoral comittee with supporters, censorship...



and the only people who should have a say in his leaving are the people of Venez.


I am concerned with human rights abuses in so far as I don't like seeing prisoners being kept interned for no reason, in prisoners being abused, in young rioters being arrested, disarmed and then being beaten away from the public eye, in homosexuals being persecuted.

As well as the assassination of political leaders, attempts of coups, suppression of union power...


the United States, the United Kingdom and Iran?

I don't think the US or the UK are quite at Venezuela level. Iran, however...

Chavez is nothing more than a genocidal son of a bitch. He has put nothing into his nations health or welfare systems cause he is doing nothing but supporting terrorists groups, and buying expensive weapons for his million man army. He allows youth who support America to abducted at gun point from Venezuelan streets and taken to torture chambers in Cuba and in secret locations in Venezuela itself. The sooner he is ousted the better off the people of Venezuela will be.

+1

You mean apart from repeatedly violating it, reportedly stacking the electoral comittee with supporters, censorship...

*glances at US*
Pot Kettle.


As well as the assassination of political leaders, attempts of coups, suppression of union power...

UK falls into 2 out of those 3. And odd after a failed coup, serving his time in prison, then he still get elected! Doesn't that tell you the condition of the previous leaders. The population at large must have thought they were REALLY shit, if they elected a fellow you claim is a fascist (odd really), a murderer and a human rights abuser- and has 60% approval ratings to boot.



I don't think the US or the UK are quite at Venezuela level. Iran, however...Oh, it's matters of degrees now is it?

"Oh, we're not that bad. I mean, sure we're better then the Nazi's/Iranians/North Koreans/Soviets etc etc" :rolleyes:

So much for being champions of the West.

US? Pot-kettle? What makes you think I'm American?

Further: Yes, matters of degree, umm, matter. Or would you argue modern Switzerland (where I am sure a protestor gets beaten up here and there) is absolutely no different from Stalin's Russia.

Never claimed the UK was a nice country either.

US? Pot-kettle? What makes you think I'm American?
Bad choice of words. My bad.
I merely wanted to point that out without being accused of resorting to jumping up and down, screaming " I HATE AMERICA, I HATE FREEDOM"


Further: Yes, matters of degree, umm, matter. Or would you argue modern Switzerland (where I am sure a protestor gets beaten up here and there) is absolutely no different from Stalin's Russia.
Ok, fair enough.

Now quit giving Chavez such a hard time. In fact stop bringing it up at all- in matters of degrees he's nowhere near Stalin, Hitler, Kim Il Sung, Pol Pot, Kim Jong Il, Syngman Rhee, Mugabe, Idi Amin, Mobuto Sese Seko, Gadaffi, Saddam Hussein, Khomeni, Mussolini, Franco.... after all... its all a matter of degrees, right? ;)

Chavez is nothing more than a genocidal son of a bitch. He has put nothing into his nations health or welfare systems cause he is doing nothing but supporting terrorists groups, and buying expensive weapons for his million man army. He allows youth who support America to abducted at gun point from Venezuelan streets and taken to torture chambers in Cuba and in secret locations in Venezuela itself. The sooner he is ousted the better off the people of Venezuela will be.

I know both you and Allanea hate socialism with all the hate your little hearts can sustain, but could you provide some actual evidence for this rant?

Technically, in Mussolini's regime, at least communist writings were published and communist Professors not abused. :)

http://english.ohmynews.com/ArticleView/article_view.asp?no=284319&rel_no=1

Apparently the same people who rigged Venezuela's elections to help Chavez now want to rig US elections:
http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200604051541
If this does result in rigged American elections, it will be all the justification we need to launch a full military invasion of Venezuela to seize Chavez and free the Venezuelan people from his brutal bloodthirsty dictatorship.

He's even trying to install a puppet regime in Peru.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/14273892.htm

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200604080805

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2006&m=April&x=20060405100755bcreklaw0.1233332&t=livefeeds/wf-latest.html

Hugo Chavez's human rights record:
http://hrw.org/doc/?t=americas&c=venezu

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41778.htm

And there is this from everyones favorite human rights group:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr530052004


His record on human rights is deplorable and on a level comparable to North korea's and Iran's.

Diddn't America outlaw the Communist party at one stage?

So?

http://www.lii.warwick.ac.uk/uscode/50/841.html whats that so?

what you mean so?? thats not very democratic now is it?

So? Why does that matter?

America at that time also had the military draft, a ban on civilian possession of gold bullion, and discrimination on a sexual (gays) and racial (blacks, Italians) basis.

And that time is over.

Venezuela, it seems, is still living in this kind of past.

even by your point there, thats just because it was not moving at the same pace as America, due to exploitation.

And it seems you are using America as the "normal" country,a milestone other countries should try to be, and if they dont like it, force it on them.

No. That's your interpretation of events.

You seem to imagine progress being a straight line, going from Point A in the past to point C in the future, with point A inevitably worse then Point C.

I don't think it works that way, both because the line is not in any way straight, nor is there any definition of progress to assure us point A is inevitably worse.

Further, Venezuela is not like that due to exploitation. It's because it's leaders (currently Chavez and before that his predecessors) have made decisions to go out there and oppress their people, and the latter have not resisted effectively. Exploitation or not, if Chavez decides tomorrow to stop killing opposition members, they will not be killed.

Im sorry, but after that last post, i have stopped taking you seriously.

This is your right. But frankly, statements like 'I have stopped taking you seriously' do not disprove my argument in any way.

Chavez is nothing more than a genocidal son of a bitch. He has put nothing into his nations health or welfare systems cause he is doing nothing but supporting terrorists groups, and buying expensive weapons for his million man army. He allows youth who support America to abducted at gun point from Venezuelan streets and taken to torture chambers in Cuba and in secret locations in Venezuela itself. The sooner he is ousted the better off the people of Venezuela will be.+1Allanea, What does "+1" means?

Allanea, What does "+1" means?

Plus another post. Pointless, spammy rubbish. Used here to quote Whittier--'s post.

Allanea, What does "+1" means?

In some places, it means +1 postcount. In others (that use a karma system) it means that the post is important or insightful.

Plus another post. Pointless, spammy rubbish. Used here to quote Whittier--'s post.ahh.. I though It meant something like "u r a stupid retard" or something like that..

never mind then.

it means that the post is important or insightful.Nah.. that could not possibly be it..

I mean Allanea is very passionate about Chavez.. but she is not retarded. ..
..I hope.:confused:

Nah.. that could not possibly be it..

I mean Allanea is very passionate about Chavez.. but she is not retarded. ..
..I hope.:confused:

Boris isn't retarded at all. He just hates all socialists, including Chavez. As does Whittier - AKA Whittier-, Whittier--, Norse County, Socialist Whittier...

Boris isn't retarded at all. He just hates all socialists, including Chavez. As does Whittier - AKA Whittier-, Whittier--, Norse County, Socialist Whittier...Oh.. NorseCountry is Whittier. ??
Thx for opening my eyes.

LOL.. Socialist Whittier :D

ahh.. I though It meant something like "u r a stupid retard" or something like that..

never mind then.
Oh, he was being serious! I thought it was a satirical take on Venuzela and the US. Change Chavez to Bush and Venuzeula to America in the original rant, and you pretty much have exact same accusations being thrown at the US.
Damn. And here I was getting all excited that we had a genuine satirist in our midst.

1. But it still sucks.
2. Are those absolute poverty levels, or relative poverty?
3. How many are still illiterate?
4. This is aid as a percentage of GDP. The US still gives more aid in actual dollars, which is what counts.
Yep. Better that he just pocket all the money and spend nothing on health, welfare or education. The US seem to prefer their oil producing countries to do this.

Yep. Better that he just pocket all the money and spend nothing on health, welfare or education. The US seem to prefer their oil producing countries to do this.
Just more anti american propaganda from another Bush hater that is has no foundation in actual facts.

Chavez is nothing more than a genocidal son of a bitch. He has put nothing into his nations health or welfare systems cause he is doing nothing but supporting terrorists groups, and buying expensive weapons for his million man army. He allows youth who support America to abducted at gun point from Venezuelan streets and taken to torture chambers in Cuba and in secret locations in Venezuela itself. The sooner he is ousted the better off the people of Venezuela will be.

Emmm....the only people dragging others off to Cuba are the Americans....and when you say better off, do you mean in the classic "rich-elite-majority-in-drug-addled-poverty-while-fat-yanks-benefit" way? With maybe government backed death squads? And the odd CIA advisor reminicisng with the younger ones about the "good old days" with Ronnie Raygun at the wheel?

I am unsurprised to find that Chavez is getting good health care and literacy ratings. Leftist governments in South America usually concentrate on that sort of thing.Technically, in Mussolini's regime, at least communist writings were published and communist Professors not abused.Tell that to Gramsci's ghost. He died in one of Mussolini's jail cells.

Communists were also the first to disappear in Hitler's Germany.

Umm, I did not say no communists were persecuted, merely that some communists were allowed to publish openly.

Also, Gramsci did not die in prison, but in a hospital where he spent the last two years in his life (under guard/house arrest though).

Note also that Mussolini's italy (whom I do not defend by no means) was rather 'mild' compared to Hitler's Germany, Pinochet's Chile, Khomeini's Iran, etc. right-wing sh*tholes of your choice.

Yah, but the beeb is publicly owned, so it's full of flag-waving commie traitors, right?

Personally, I don't see why the US/EU has a problem with Hugo Chavez, just because he spends oil profits on welfare programmes and not his own pockets, like the Saudi Royal Family. Personally, I'd welcome a Chavez-esque Prime Minister over here, not these Blairite closet conservatives.
well maybe it's the lack of freedom of press. He hasn't stamped it out completly but it is risky to critisise him.

well maybe it's the lack of freedom of press. He hasn't stamped it out completly but it is risky to critisise him.

All bar the single state run channell are owned by his opponents. Many of these are the same people who launched the coup against him in 2002. They arent dead, or in jail. While some of his supporters may overstep the mark now and again, its most certainly not state sanctioned. Were I in his shoes, knowing that certain parties were colloborating with a foriegn state against my government, I doubt whether I could show the same restraint.

And who do you think killed the special prosecutor investigating the coup, btw?

Chavez is nothing more than a genocidal son of a bitch. He has put nothing into his nations health or welfare systems cause he is doing nothing but supporting terrorists groups, and buying expensive weapons for his million man army. He allows youth who support America to abducted at gun point from Venezuelan streets and taken to torture chambers in Cuba and in secret locations in Venezuela itself. The sooner he is ousted the better off the people of Venezuela will be.
Proof?

Proof?

You expct proof from him? Prepare for hate-filled rhetoric instead old boy.

His record on human rights is deplorable and on a level comparable to North korea's and Iran's.

What are we, then? Nazi Germany?

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=usa&c=usdom

Chávez, for what it's worth, has far more excuse for certain kinds of authoritarianism than the US does; no one serious is trying to overthrow Bush.

tonite.. I finally got to see the much-talked about BBC report by pallast.. it actually was short review of the Chavez Gov.. with the highlites of the Interview..

Yes they did talk about the $50 dollar proposition and about Venezuela taking over Saudi Arabia.. and about Canada becoming an Oil powerhouse..

But 4 other facts advanced by the BBC are Interesting..

#1< Chavez Gov is providing better health care and Better Education.
#2< Chavez Gov has reduced Venezuela Poverty levels by ONE THIRD !!
#3< 1.5 million Venezuelans have recently been saved from Illiteracy.
#4< Venezuela is currently giving the most Aid in the "Americas", The US is in second place.


I would like to see the data behind those claims, and I also hope that they address Chavez's human rights issues.

I would like to see the data behind those claims...Its the BBC.. I usually take their word for it..

feel free to ask them:
feedback@bbc.co.uk
bbc.world@bbc.co.uk
newsnight@bbc.co.uk
greg.palast@bbc.co.uk

Note also that Mussolini's italy (whom I do not defend by no means) was rather 'mild' compared to Hitler's Germany, Pinochet's Chile, Khomeini's Iran, etc. right-wing sh*tholes of your choice.

And in comparison, Chavez's govt is a peachy compared to Mussolini's. So, if its all a matter of degrees, you can stop whinging about his deplorable human rights record- especially since he can very easily point the finger abroad and go to several hemispherical and Western states and say

"And you have the audacity to criticise me?!"

Those in glass houses....

Its the BBC.. I usually take their word for it..

I don't usually trust any secondhand telling of a news report.

I don't doubt the veracity of such organisations. I believe when HRW, UN, Amnesty Int, IRC say stuff is happening- then it is happening.

I'm looking around the world, and even at the countries we hold up to be lights in the world and bastions of good- they have files in those NGO's too. Nobody is perfect. Nobody here is claiming Venez or Chavez's govt is perfect.

Bottom line: The people of his country voted him in and kept him there democratically- in elections that were deemed fair and fine by the above.

Every country has skeletons in the closet- some countries try to help the majority and Chavez is getting recognised for at least trying to help to already poor people in the country. If he screws up, they'll be the ones to throw him out, for their reasons.


Exactly. good post.