NationStates Jolt Archive

Top 10 first aid misconceptions:

1. "You should put butter or cream on a burn."
The only thing you should put on a burn is water - keep the butter for cooking!

2."If you can’t move a limb, it must be broken."
"If you can move a limb, or stand up with it, it can’t be broken."
The only accurate way to diagnose a broken limb is by x-raying it.

3. "The best way to treat bleeding is to put the wound under a tap."
If you put a bleeding wound under a tap, you will wash away the clotting agents and make it bleed more.

4."Nose bleeds are best treated by putting the head back."
If you put the head back for a nose bleed, all the blood will go down the back of the airway.

5. "A tourniquet is the best way to treat serious bleeding."
Tourniquets are NOT recommended for first aid - if you stop the blood flow to a limb for more than 10-15 minutes it will die.

6. "If someone has swallowed a poison you should make them sick."
If you make someone sick by putting your fingers in their mouth, the vomit may block the airway.

7. "If you perform CPR on someone who has a pulse you can damage the heart."
The evidence is that it isn’t dangerous to do chest compressions on a casualty with a pulse.

8. "You must always call an ambulance if you perform first aid."
Sometimes, first aid is all the casualty needs - don’t call an ambulance unless it’s an emergency.

9."To do first aid you need lots of training."
You don’t. What you mostly need is common sense - and you can learn enough first aid in 10 minutes to save a life.

10."You need lots of expensive equipment to do first aid."
You don’t need any equipment to do first aid - there are lots of ways to improvise anything you need. For instance, a clean handkerchief will make a good dressing.

SOURCE: http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/first_aid_action/getting_started_pg3.shtml (look further down the page when you click the link and get to the page)

I've always wanted to learn first-aid. Never had any time though. Bah.

I've always wanted to learn first-aid. Never had any time though. Bah.

Doesn't actually take that long - few hours max I think. Or depending on the size of the group, as little as an hour - OR if you click this link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/first_aid_action/getting_started_pg1.shtml you can learn some basic stuff online. Whilst online stuff is no substitute for a teacher, you can still learn some useful stuff.

I've always wanted to learn first-aid. Never had any time though. Bah.

9."To do first aid you need lots of training."
You don’t. What you mostly need is common sense - and you can learn enough first aid in 10 minutes to save a life.

So stop posting now and go learn.

And anyone can get sued. Even the BBC. Did you notice the huge disclaimer at the bottom of the page?

I had it for a year...it wasn't fun, though I did learn alot. You can do it much quicker in a rush program through the red cross.

6. "If someone has swallowed a poison you should make them sick."
If you make someone sick by putting your fingers in their mouth, the vomit may block the airway.

7. "If you perform CPR on someone who has a pulse you can damage the heart."
The evidence is that it isn’t dangerous to do chest compressions on a casualty with a pulse.


They were all good except for these two.

CPR involves checking for a pulse regularly.

May poisons recommend that you induce vomiting.

I've trained in first aid. I'm abotu due to go for my renewal I think. If everyone over fifteen took it, we'd probably have a lot less death by stupidity (Not that first aid stops stupidity, it just can prevent it from turning lethal).

I used to work in a primary school, and we all did a first aid course. The instructor told us basically that we are not allowed to do anything, because of the fear of litigation. We were even told that we were not allowed to take a bee sting from a child and were supposed to call it's parents. The only things we could do were put into a recovery position and call and ambulance....thats more or less it...what a total pile of poo...we were not even supposed to apply plasters.....

A tourniquet around the neck is best for stopping nosebleeds.

Doesn't actually take that long - few hours max I think. Or depending on the size of the group, as little as an hour - OR if you click this link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/first_aid_action/getting_started_pg1.shtml you can learn some basic stuff online. Whilst online stuff is no substitute for a teacher, you can still learn some useful stuff.

Thanks for the link.

And anyone can get sued. Even the BBC. Did you notice the huge disclaimer at the bottom of the page?

whoever gets sued for saving someoens life should also be able to counter sue to take away what they saved

A tourniquet around the neck is best for stopping nosebleeds.
I think it best someone say this:
LEARN NOTHING FROM THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT FIRST AID!

So stop posting now and go learn.

Sadly, there are no first-aid courses in my town.

unless you live in a town without a hopital, i think your just not looking hard enough

Re: suing

what would someone sue for? you saving their life?

In America, maybe they would (I believe it has actually happened), but in Britain, someone tried it because they were injured by someone who had saved their life (broken ribs I think due to CPR) and they lost. In Britain we have something called "case law" and this case set a precadent, which means it's highly unlikely anyone could sue you (and win) for them being injured while you were saving their life.

unless you live in a town without a hopital, i think your just not looking hard enough

Hah! There isn't even a doctor in my town.

They were all good except for these two.

CPR involves checking for a pulse regularly.

May poisons recommend that you induce vomiting.

In the UK, CPR no longer involves checking for a pulse - it's been shown to produce unreliable results (present or absent) 50% of the time. It's now something else LINK: http://www.bbc.co.uk/apps/ifl/health/gigaquiz?pagenum=6&9=&8=&7=&6=&5=&4=&10=&3=&2=a&1=c&infile=firstaid_quick&path=firstaid_quick&state=1&3=b&next_t=answer_q3&%2Fcgi-perl%2Fhealth%2Fgigabuilder%2Ftestquiz.pl%3F.x=47&%2Fcgi-perl%2Fhealth%2Fgigabuilder%2Ftestquiz.pl%3F.y=4

Not all poisons reccomend you induce vomiting. Sometimes it could make things worse, as stated.

Hah! There isn't even a doctor in my town.

i think the location you have under your name is right;)

Myth 11 - CPR saves lives

Well, ok, not technically a myth but people assign more importance to the efficacy of CPR than is actually there. Chances of saving someone with CPR only: <2%

i think the location you have under your name is right;)

Heh. Indeed. I like it though, which is all that matters.

Hah! There isn't even a doctor in my town.

So move.

One thing that is done here in Brazil is that you have to pass a first aid exam to get your driving licence. This is a brilliant piece of thinking by someone, as it means that nearly all middle class and up adults have a reasonable knowledge of first aid. (In the first world it would apply to nearly all adults and not be class linked so strongly)

Myth 11 - CPR saves lives

Well, ok, not technically a myth but people assign more importance to the efficacy of CPR than is actually there. Chances of saving someone with CPR only: <2%

Um do you have a link to back taht up? As i'm sure i've read taht in places where people are trained in cpr, the lifes saved are higher

Myth 11 - CPR saves lives

Well, ok, not technically a myth but people assign more importance to the efficacy of CPR than is actually there. Chances of saving someone with CPR only: <2%
well, kinda true...CPR doesn't save a life...it keeps oxygen flowing to the brain. It isn't like TV where you'll do CPR and they'll suddenly wake up

In the UK, CPR no longer involves checking for a pulse - it's been shown to produce unreliable results (present or absent) 50% of the time. It's now something else LINK: http://www.bbc.co.uk/apps/ifl/health/gigaquiz?pagenum=6&9=&8=&7=&6=&5=&4=&10=&3=&2=a&1=c&infile=firstaid_quick&path=firstaid_quick&state=1&3=b&next_t=answer_q3&%2Fcgi-perl%2Fhealth%2Fgigabuilder%2Ftestquiz.pl%3F.x=47&%2Fcgi-perl%2Fhealth%2Fgigabuilder%2Ftestquiz.pl%3F.y=4

Not all poisons reccomend you induce vomiting. Sometimes it could make things worse, as stated.
um...the only way you will get wrong results for checking pulse is if you don't know what you are doing...ie checking with your thumb or in the wrong place

Re: suing

what would someone sue for? you saving their life?

In America, maybe they would (I believe it has actually happened), but in Britain, someone tried it because they were injured by someone who had saved their life (broken ribs I think due to CPR) and they lost. In Britain we have something called "case law" and this case set a precadent, which means it's highly unlikely anyone could sue you (and win) for them being injured while you were saving their life.


I live in the UK, and the advice was as I stated.

So move.

Over the lack of a first-aid course? Seems a bit extreme.


One thing that is done here in Brazil is that you have to pass a first aid exam to get your driving licence. This is a brilliant piece of thinking by someone, as it means that nearly all middle class and up adults have a reasonable knowledge of first aid. (In the first world it would apply to nearly all adults and not be class linked so strongly)

Now, that is a good idea.

well, kinda true...CPR doesn't save a life...it keeps oxygen flowing to the brain. It isn't like TV where you'll do CPR and they'll suddenly wake up

It keeps it blood AND oxygen flowing until better aid (paramedics) arrive. And people have been saved with it... and as I said to PasturePatry: "Um do you have a link to back that up [the suggestion that CPR only saves lives in 2% of cases]? As i'm sure i've read that in places where people are trained in cpr, the lifes saved are higher"

I live in the UK, and the advice was as I stated.

what "advice"? you were advised that you would be sued? then you had a silly first aid teacher. if you mean something else, could you please make it clar what you mean?

I used to work in a primary school, and we all did a first aid course. The instructor told us basically that we are not allowed to do anything, because of the fear of litigation. We were even told that we were not allowed to take a bee sting from a child and were supposed to call it's parents. The only things we could do were put into a recovery position and call and ambulance....thats more or less it...what a total pile of poo...we were not even supposed to apply plasters.....

That's some silly stuff advised to teachers by the governing people. All idiots. If anyone sued you for performing First Aid AS YOU WERE TAUGHT, then they wouldn't win. As I stated, case law has established that.

And your instructor was an idiot.

well, kinda true...CPR doesn't save a life...it keeps oxygen flowing to the brain. It isn't like TV where you'll do CPR and they'll suddenly wake up

But if you can keep oxygen flowing to the brain until someone who can do the other necessary life saving (ie paramedics) show up to get the person to the hospital, then CPR HAS saved their life, no?

One only gives First Aid to someone without permission if the victim is unconscious.

One only gives First Aid to someone without permission if they are unconscious.

well I think it would be a bit stupid to give First Aid if they didn't want you too, unless they were dying.

As I said, the school I worked in sent the staff on a first aid course. It was an official course and we were shown all the things as usual, but the instructor told us that the advice is put in the recovery postion and call and ambulance....that we could find ourselves sued if we did something wrong or made something worse, and to leave it to the proffesionals. We were not supposed to even apply plasters to the children in the school, we DID, but we were NOT supposed to.

I listened to a phone in show on the radio recently, about St. John Ambulance etc. A paramedic rang in and said that it is generally considered by the paramedics that St Johns Ambulance and co do more harm than good and the paramedics dread them being on the scene, he actually said that they were weirdos who could not get to work in the NHS. This was of course, his own opinion.

well I think it would be a bit stupid to give First Aid if they didn't want you too, unless they were dying.
Its important to say, so I said it. I think that should clear up most of the, "But I couldn't/can't do First Aid because [I'm afraid] of being sued!" In that cased, why'd did you learn First Aid? To talk about it on NS General? People that are sued for giving First Aid out are protected by law, at least in the United States, as long as they didn't do something stupid, for example:
A tourniquet around the neck is best for stopping nosebleeds.

I have learned much from this thread.

CPR is a myth.

Butter, while tasty, is not an analgesic cream.

A handkerchief, while not tasty, still makes for a good dressing.

Poisons should be puked up, but not by the finger method. Just try to think of something really gross.

Always have your lawyer present when giving first aid.

I have learned much from this thread.

CPR is a myth.

Butter, while tasty, is not an analgesic cream.

A handkerchief, while not tasty, still makes for a good dressing.

Poisons should be puked up, but not by the finger method. Just try to think of something really gross.

Always have your lawyer present when giving first aid.

All of which are useful life skills...well done

Top 10 first aid misconceptions:

1. "You should put butter or cream on a burn."
The only thing you should put on a burn is water - keep the butter for cooking!

2."If you can’t move a limb, it must be broken."
"If you can move a limb, or stand up with it, it can’t be broken."
The only accurate way to diagnose a broken limb is by x-raying it.

3. "The best way to treat bleeding is to put the wound under a tap."
If you put a bleeding wound under a tap, you will wash away the clotting agents and make it bleed more.

4."Nose bleeds are best treated by putting the head back."
If you put the head back for a nose bleed, all the blood will go down the back of the airway.

5. "A tourniquet is the best way to treat serious bleeding."
Tourniquets are NOT recommended for first aid - if you stop the blood flow to a limb for more than 10-15 minutes it will die.

6. "If someone has swallowed a poison you should make them sick."
If you make someone sick by putting your fingers in their mouth, the vomit may block the airway.

7. "If you perform CPR on someone who has a pulse you can damage the heart."
The evidence is that it isn’t dangerous to do chest compressions on a casualty with a pulse.

8. "You must always call an ambulance if you perform first aid."
Sometimes, first aid is all the casualty needs - don’t call an ambulance unless it’s an emergency.

9."To do first aid you need lots of training."
You don’t. What you mostly need is common sense - and you can learn enough first aid in 10 minutes to save a life.

10."You need lots of expensive equipment to do first aid."
You don’t need any equipment to do first aid - there are lots of ways to improvise anything you need. For instance, a clean handkerchief will make a good dressing.

SOURCE: http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/first_aid_action/getting_started_pg3.shtml (look further down the page when you click the link and get to the page)
2. Not quite true, and very often an x-ray machine is unavailable. To discover if a bone is broken, palpate it and then grip the limb on either side of where the break may be, attempt to move the bone in opposite directions just a bit. If you can feel the bone shift ( and if the patient expresses pain ), the bone is broken.

5. Again not quite true. If a limb is severed, applying a tourniguet won't make it any worse and will help stop the bleeding before the patient bleeds out.

6. Read the warning label on what they have ingested. If the label suggests inducing vomiting, do so.

8. This is a very hard call. Example: If the patient has been unconscious, whether they still are or not, an emergency call is definitely warranted.

I've always wanted to learn first-aid. Never had any time though. Bah.

I worked as a paramedic for a few years, and the number of lives that were saved by people who had only done a weekend course in First Aid is incredible. Even a 2 day course is considered sufficient my HSE to be an Appointed Person in your place of work. Although I would recommend that you get on a FAW (First Aid at Work) course at your employers expense.

8. "You must always call an ambulance if you perform first aid."
Sometimes, first aid is all the casualty needs - don’t call an ambulance unless it’s an emergency.

As someone who used to work for the British Ambulance Service, I will tell you that paramedics would rather be called out 50 times and not be needed, than not called once and someone dies. The best first aiders will get more professional care as soon as possible for anything more than a slight headache or scratch. And even then they should get the patient to visit their GP ASAP.

2. Not quite true, and very often an x-ray machine is unavailable. To discover if a bone is broken, palpate it and then grip the limb on either side of where the break may be, attempt to move the bone in opposite directions just a bit. If you can feel the bone shift ( and if the patient expresses pain ), the bone is broken.

You say this why? What evidence do you have to say that you can tell if a bone is broken without it being X-rayed?

5. Again not quite true. If a limb is severed, applying a tourniguet won't make it any worse and will help stop the bleeding before the patient bleeds out.

What you said here is EXTREMELY dangerous. Torniquets have been shown to stop blood flow and cause limbs to die (and if you think about it logically, it's pretty obvious that they would do that if you left them on too long, as the intention of them IS to stop blood flow)

6. Read the warning label on what they have ingested. If the label suggests inducing vomiting, do so.

I agree with this one, but that's no use if you don't have the label to hand

8. This is a very hard call. Example: If the patient has been unconscious, whether they still are or not, an emergency call is definitely warranted.

I agree. I dunno about America, but if you genuinely think something is serious enough to warrant an ambulance, you won't be fined for calling one.

As I said, the school I worked in sent the staff on a first aid course. It was an official course and we were shown all the things as usual, but the instructor told us that the advice is put in the recovery postion and call and ambulance....that we could find ourselves sued if we did something wrong or made something worse, and to leave it to the proffesionals. We were not supposed to even apply plasters to the children in the school, we DID, but we were NOT supposed to.

I listened to a phone in show on the radio recently, about St. John Ambulance etc. A paramedic rang in and said that it is generally considered by the paramedics that St Johns Ambulance and co do more harm than good and the paramedics dread them being on the scene, he actually said that they were weirdos who could not get to work in the NHS. This was of course, his own opinion.

I agree with you about St John Ambulance (I mean they claim to be wanting to help people yet charge ridiculous amounts for the unemployed on First Aid courses), plus my First Aid instructor didn't like em, but as for the getting sued bit, whilst your instructor may have had the best of intentions, was wrong - maybe someone would be stupid enough to sue you for helping their child, but for starters most wouldn't, and secondly if they did, case law in the U.K. has established that they are highly unlikely to win.

Its important to say, so I said it. I think that should clear up most of the, "But I couldn't/can't do First Aid because [I'm afraid] of being sued!" In that cased, why'd did you learn First Aid? To talk about it on NS General? People that are sued for giving First Aid out are protected by law, at least in the United States, as long as they didn't do something stupid, for example:

I was under the impression that IN THE UNITED STATES, you were not protected - that someone could sue you if they got hurt while you were doing First Aid on them. I'm sure there was a lawsuit taht won. Am I wrong here?

I have learned much from this thread.

CPR is a myth.

Butter, while tasty, is not an analgesic cream.

A handkerchief, while not tasty, still makes for a good dressing.

Poisons should be puked up, but not by the finger method. Just try to think of something really gross.

Always have your lawyer present when giving first aid.

Are you serious? Did you just ignore what was written? Or are you just messing about?

And anyone can get sued. Even the BBC. Did you notice the huge disclaimer at the bottom of the page?

That's what the Good Samaritan Act is for.

But if you can keep oxygen flowing to the brain until someone who can do the other necessary life saving (ie paramedics) show up to get the person to the hospital, then CPR HAS saved their life, no?
depends how you're looking at it. The CPR itself will not bring them back, which is what I mean. It will, however, sustain them. I don't mean for it to sound like CPR is worthless...that would make me a pretty bad lifeguard...haha

I was under the impression that IN THE UNITED STATES, you were not protected - that someone could sue you if they got hurt while you were doing First Aid on them. I'm sure there was a lawsuit taht won. Am I wrong here?
From my knowledge, there exists a "Good Samaritian" law that protects people that use First Aid properly.

1. You say this why? What evidence do you have to say that you can tell if a bone is broken without it being X-rayed?

2. What you said here is EXTREMELY dangerous. Torniquets have been shown to stop blood flow and cause limbs to die (and if you think about it logically, it's pretty obvious that they would do that if you left them on too long, as the intention of them IS to stop blood flow)

3. I agree with this one, but that's no use if you don't have the label to hand

4. I agree. I dunno about America, but if you genuinely think something is serious enough to warrant an ambulance, you won't be fined for calling one.
1. Uh ... because I'm a qualified US Army Medic and have used crepitis several times to determine if a bone is broken?

2. If the limb is severed, it's already dying. Placing a tourniquet around the end of the stump will not affect the severed limb and may save the patient's life.

3. The only substances of which I am aware in which vomiting should NOT be induced are caustic and petroleum-based substances. Usually, the container is near at hand.

4. Most ambulance services in the US are fee-based.

Poisons should be puked up, but not by the finger method. Just try to think of something really gross.


Actually, the prevailing wisdom in the past few decades is for every parent to have syrup of ipecac on hand in case their kid ate something poisonous or otherwise harmful (like a thumbtack or something). It makes you throw up. Now we tell our clients not to do that immediately but to just take em right to the hospital if there's one close enough (since I live in Columbia and most of my clients do too, we've got Howard General right there). Calling poison control is also something you can do. This is because if the child swallowed something caustic or sharp, making him throw it back up can cause even more damage to the esophagus. At the hospital they know how to pump a stomach without exposing the rest of the digestive system to the stuff they're getting out.

...just a little piece of information for parents and parents-to-be.

From my knowledge, there exists a "Good Samaritian" law that protects people that use First Aid properly.
In many states, yes.

I have learned much from this thread.

CPR is a myth.

Always have your lawyer present when giving first aid.

Ok, CPR is no myth, if someone has gone into cardiac arrest, no amount of compressions will restart the heart, you will need a de-fib for that. However keeping the blood moving and putting in oxygen will prevent the blood clotting and hopefully stave off brain damage. That way the person may at least be saved when the de-fib turns up. I was once administering CPR to a fellow who had had a heart attack, and I was there for near on 45 minutes before a colleague turned up with a de-fib. The man spent five days in intensive care and left with only very minor brain damage a couple of weeks later. He was technically dead for 45 mins, and no amount of CPR was going to revive him. However as I have said that's no reason not to do it, you must try, even if it's just for the family or yourself, to show you tried. I lost a few people, and it is hard. You know you couldn't have done anything, yet you beat yourself up for not trying.

As for the lawyer, as long as you prove that you kept to your training you are covered under law in both the UK and the US. In fact in two US states it is a legal requirement that a First Aider go to the aid of any officer of the law who needed help.
As for legal liability, in the UK, the HSE issued the following in 1993:
In legal terms correct first aid practise is when first aiders act in accordance with the standards of the ordinary skilled first aider exercising and professing to have that special skill of a first aider. What will amount to the ordinary standard is a question of law to be decided by the courts. However, where it can be shown that the first aider acted in accordance with general and approved practise currant at the time in question, then he/she is unlikely to be viewed as having fallen short of the skill required of him or her. Even if there is no complete agreement as to what is approved practise, provided he/she acts in accordance with any practise approved by a responsible body of medical opinion this will be sufficient.
What I tell people when I'm training them is, life first law second.
A colleague of mine and his son were once fishing when on holiday in Germany, and saw a large man fall into the water. They quickly went over and pulled this German chap out, rescued him from drowning and saved his life. He tried to sue them for breaking a rib when they pulled him out the water. He lost.
Generally the courts will come down on the side of the first aider, so whatever you do, don't let anything discourage you from saving someones life.

Generally the courts will come down on the side of the first aider, so whatever you do, don't let anything discourage you from saving someones life.
Exactly, unless of course you do something stupid, like amputating the head.

1. Uh ... because I'm a qualified US Army Medic and have used crepitis several times to determine if a bone is broken?

2. If the limb is severed, it's already dying. Placing a tourniquet around the end of the stump will not affect the severed limb and may save the patient's life.

3. The only substances of which I am aware in which vomiting should NOT be induced are caustic and petroleum-based substances. Usually, the container is near at hand.

4. Most ambulance services in the US are fee-based.

2, the tourniquet bit was about serious bleeding, not broken limbs

3, fair enough, but if the container is not at hand, tis best to err on the side of caution tis it not?

4, ah the good old U.S. of let's-exploit-the-dying A. Fortunately in Britain, ambulances are not fee-based.

Always carry a razor blade and a ballpoint pen in case you need to do an emergency tracheotomy.

You say this why? What evidence do you have to say that you can tell if a bone is broken without it being X-rayed?
um...usually being able to move the bone in two different directions would imply a break...ya know...just a bit. We didn't always have xrays...

What you said here is EXTREMELY dangerous. Torniquets have been shown to stop blood flow and cause limbs to die (and if you think about it logically, it's pretty obvious that they would do that if you left them on too long, as the intention of them IS to stop blood flow)First of all, if it is a severed limb, then there is no limb to kill. Also, if you are trained for professional rescuer type thing, you are trained how to properly use a tourniquet for extreme bleeding. Or pressure points.

um...usually being able to move the bone in two different directions would imply a break...ya know...just a bit. We didn't always have xrays...

First of all, if it is a severed limb, then there is no limb to kill. Also, if you are trained for professional rescuer type thing, you are trained how to properly use a tourniquet for extreme bleeding. Or pressure points.

1. Maybe true, but being able to move it doesn't necessarily mean it ainr broke

2. The tourniquet thing was about BLEEDING, not broken limbs. You are not supposed to use a tourniquet because you may end up killing the lib you use it on to stop serious bleeding. If for some reason you have to, then you're at least supposed to monitor it

2, the tourniquet bit was about serious bleeding, not broken limbs

3, fair enough, but if the container is not at hand, tis best to err on the side of caution tis it not?

4, ah the good old U.S. of let's-exploit-the-dying A. Fortunately in Britain, ambulances are not fee-based.
2. I said nothing about "broken" limbs in the tourniqet question. SEVERED limbs. SEVERED!

3. Or you can contact the National Capital Poison Center (http://www.poison.org/) at 1-800-222-1222.

4. Uh ... in case of inability to pay, the local community foots the bill. Stop jumping to conclusions, please.

In many states, yes.
There are also other cases and precedents which you can appeal to. I am sorry to say I have a low opinion of the States, simply because when I was last there, I was in Oregon and witnessed a car crash. One of the drivers was dead, without a doubt, the other was barely alive, so I went to try and save him first. The dead man had his wife in the car, she was not seriously hurt, so my wife dealt with her. The man I went to help survived, went to hospital, and three days later when I was returning through I visited him where, I must admit, he was incredibly grateful to me. The wife of the dead man sued me for not treating her husband. Luckily for me a friend of mine is a pathologist in the States and helped me out, but it sort of put a downer on me for a few days. However I would still do it again if I had to.

2, the tourniquet bit was about serious bleeding, not broken limbs

Severed limbs have to have a tourniquet, or the patient will bleed to death surely? Eut DID say severed, not merely bleeding.

4, ah the good old U.S. of let's-exploit-the-dying A. Fortunately in Britain, ambulances are not fee-based.
If you are involved in a car accident in England, and an ambulance takes you to hospital, the hospital send you a bill. I know this as my ex got one after he was knocked of his bike by a truck.

There are also other cases and precedents which you can appeal to. I am sorry to say I have a low opinion of the States, simply because when I was last there, I was in Oregon and witnessed a car crash. One of the drivers was dead, without a doubt, the other was barely alive, so I went to try and save him first. The dead man had his wife in the car, she was not seriously hurt, so my wife dealt with her. The man I went to help survived, went to hospital, and three days later when I was returning through I visited him where, I must admit, he was incredibly grateful to me. The wife of the dead man sued me for not treating her husband. Luckily for me a friend of mine is a pathologist in the States and helped me out, but it sort of put a downer on me for a few days. However I would still do it again if I had to.
Good that you didn't allow one idiot to make you less likely to help. Thank you! :)

1. Maybe true, but being able to move it doesn't necessarily mean it ainr broke

2. The tourniquet thing was about BLEEDING, not broken limbs. You are not supposed to use a tourniquet because you may end up killing the lib you use it on to stop serious bleeding. If for some reason you have to, then you're at least supposed to monitor it
no...being able to move the top half of your femur right and the bottom half left means its broken.

Um, I was talking about bleeding. For severe bleeding, I have been trained how to do it. As I said, I'm trained for prof. first aid.

I took a whole series of first aid classes in my high school. CPR, basic first aid, that kind of stuff.

However, I'd never perform any of it in the US on anyone but a family member or person that I hold close because of the legal liability you open yourself up for. There have been cases where a 'first aider' was sued because they were 'neglegant' in something and been ordered to pay large sums of money.

As the US doesn't have 'good Samaritan' laws, you won't get in trouble for not helping someone even if you know what to do - even if the person dies because of your inaction. However, do something to the best of your ability to save the life and you might be paying for it for the rest of your life.

Wonderful, isn't it, the sue-happy culture in the US, ain't it?

Good that you didn't allow one idiot to make you less likely to help. Thank you! :)
You yourself said you were an Army medic, so was I for a long time. Nothing will stop me from doing my very best to preserve life.

That's some silly stuff advised to teachers by the governing people. All idiots. If anyone sued you for performing First Aid AS YOU WERE TAUGHT, then they wouldn't win. As I stated, case law has established that.

And your instructor was an idiot.

Well, at least in America, one can be held liable if the person they saved was seriously injured during the act. Which is a crock. But there are lots of greedy ass people in the world, willing to sue for any reason whatsoever, even if they're life or child's life was saved.

Fortunately, if you are registered in CPR, you can't be held legally responsible for injuries associated with performing CPR.

I took a whole series of first aid classes in my high school. CPR, basic first aid, that kind of stuff.

However, I'd never perform any of it in the US on anyone but a family member or person that I hold close because of the legal liability you open yourself up for. There have been cases where a 'first aider' was sued because they were 'neglegant' in something and been ordered to pay large sums of money.

As the US doesn't have 'good Samaritan' laws, you won't get in trouble for not helping someone even if you know what to do - even if the person dies because of your inaction. However, do something to the best of your ability to save the life and you might be paying for it for the rest of your life.

Wonderful, isn't it, the sue-happy culture in the US, ain't it?

As I have said; life first law second. There are laws in the US you can call on, and several cases and precidents you can rely on. If you really get stuck there are a few hospitals and trusts who will help a first aider defend themselves in court. Never let anything stoip you from doing your best to save a life.

Wonderful, isn't it, the sue-happy culture in the US, ain't it?
As I have to explain to so many Finns, it really depends on the state.

Ok, I'm no doctor but I do have standard first aid and CPR-C and I have a few problems here

Top 10 first aid misconceptions:

1. "You should put butter or cream on a burn."
The only thing you should put on a burn is water - keep the butter for cooking!

2."If you can’t move a limb, it must be broken."
"If you can move a limb, or stand up with it, it can’t be broken."
The only accurate way to diagnose a broken limb is by x-raying it.

3. "The best way to treat bleeding is to put the wound under a tap."
If you put a bleeding wound under a tap, you will wash away the clotting agents and make it bleed more.

4."Nose bleeds are best treated by putting the head back."
If you put the head back for a nose bleed, all the blood will go down the back of the airway.

5. "A tourniquet is the best way to treat serious bleeding."
Tourniquets are NOT recommended for first aid - if you stop the blood flow to a limb for more than 10-15 minutes it will die.

Ok, say someone has just lost a limb => serious bleeding, a tourniquet is approprate. If someone has slit their wrist on the other hand (bad pun) good old pressure with gause is prefered.


6. "If someone has swallowed a poison you should make them sick."
If you make someone sick by putting your fingers in their mouth, the vomit may block the airway.


This depends on if the toxin can be neutralized in body and how corrosive it is. If someone just drank Drano you would not want to induce vomiting due to the massive damage it can do comming up. On the other hand if someone just drank methanol (lethal and can make you go blind but is not caustic) inducing vomiting is appropriate.



7. "If you perform CPR on someone who has a pulse you can damage the heart."
The evidence is that it isn’t dangerous to do chest compressions on a casualty with a pulse.

CPR is very hard on the body, you normally will crack ribs and seperate the stirnum. There is also the possibility of doing interal damage. If you preform CPR you MUST call an ambulance.


8. "You must always call an ambulance if you perform first aid."
Sometimes, first aid is all the casualty needs - don’t call an ambulance unless it’s an emergency.


If you have an ABC (airway, breathing, circulation) problem CALL.



9."To do first aid you need lots of training."
You don’t. What you mostly need is common sense - and you can learn enough first aid in 10 minutes to save a life.

10."You need lots of expensive equipment to do first aid."
You don’t need any equipment to do first aid - there are lots of ways to improvise anything you need. For instance, a clean handkerchief will make a good dressing.

SOURCE: http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/first_aid_action/getting_started_pg3.shtml (look further down the page when you click the link and get to the page)

Just my random blabalings. I take no responsibility for what people do with this information..

lol

I'm seeing alot of misconceptions of US laws and practices...

first of all, if you are trained, you are required to act. This is part of most states good samaritan laws. You are also protected from lawsuits. You cannot be sued, even if the person dies.

If you are not certified and just decide to attempt to do CPR on someone, you can be held liable. Not to mention, you are an idiot and could do some severe damage. Unless you have someone instructing what to do, or at the very least a piece of paper to tell you what to do, don't mess with it. Sometimes the best you can do is nothing.

there is the case of a DNR (do not recessitate). If a person is DNR (they should have a bracelet if they are) you can not touch them. Period. If someone removes that bracelet, then you can perform required steps, but other than that, never touch a DNR. Call an ambulance, let them deal with it.

Our ambulance system. They are private companies...of course they are going to need to get money for their services. Same with ER's. It isn't exploitation. If you can't pay, something will be worked out, but yes, somehow, they will need to be compensated.

Also, there is no law about who you need to save. We are trained to save the most likely person to survive, but I don't have to listen to that. I can choose to do CPR on someone who is clearly dead rather than someone right next to him who has a shot. this would make me a jackass, but there is no legal standing.

Finally, good samaritan laws say that you do what you can. If someone needs CPR and you have nothing to use as a barrier (you can even take a piece of plastic, poke holes in it, and use that) you do not have to perform CPR. I would. That is just me...I'd rather take my chances of getting hepititis than risk having someone die. But you are never forced to put yourself at risk.

I used to work in a primary school, and we all did a first aid course. The instructor told us basically that we are not allowed to do anything, because of the fear of litigation. We were even told that we were not allowed to take a bee sting from a child and were supposed to call it's parents. The only things we could do were put into a recovery position and call and ambulance....thats more or less it...what a total pile of poo...we were not even supposed to apply plasters.....
Maybe in your locality, but not in Canada.

If a patient is conscious, you tell them you know first aid and ask if you can help. If they say yes then you can proceed.

If a patient is unconscious, you still ask the question and since they cannot reply, that is implied consent to proceed.

Obviously if the patient is not breathing and/or has no pulse, there is implied consent to start rescue breathing or CPR if there is no pulse.

As I have said; life first law second. There are laws in the US you can call on, and several cases and precidents you can rely on. If you really get stuck there are a few hospitals and trusts who will help a first aider defend themselves in court. Never let anything stoip you from doing your best to save a life.

Actually, I now live in the Netherlands where fortunately things are much different. We have 'good Samaritan' laws here that actually require someone to help out to the best of their ability without putting themselves in danger. So, if someone falls into a canal here in Amsterdam, and you can swim, then you need to jump in after them - assuming that they're not panicing so much that they put you in danger.

As for America - as awful as it sounds, I still wouldn't perform any first aid on people. Beyond the fact that I wouldn't have the money for legal fees (the other party would, of course, hire a 'no cure no pay' lawyer) but earn too much for pro deo, the disruption to my life would be so significant and the potential risks too great. In a state where there is sufficient legal protection, it would be a different story, but not where there isn't. There may be sources of funds for a legal defense, but will it cover the morgage, electric bills, water bills, etc. when I'm in court? Will it pay for loss of income, pain and suffering, and punative awards should I lose? Given the monetary awards in court cases in the US the risk of losing unfortunately really does need to be weighed.

"Live first law second" is a wonderful ethic but I have moral and ethical responsibilities to myself, my family, my work, and my social circle to balance with those of a stranger. A call to 911 would be the extent of what I would do. Not that I like this one bit but that's the sad fact of litigation in the US.

Maybe in your locality, but not in Canada.

If a patient is conscious, you tell them you know first aid and ask if you can help. If they say yes then you can proceed.

If a patient is unconscious, you still ask the question and since they cannot reply, that is implied consent to proceed.

Obviously if the patient is not breathing and/or has no pulse, there is implied consent to start rescue breathing or CPR if there is no pulse.
US is the same way except for if the person is DNR

US is the same way except for if the person is DNR
Well, DNR is kinda self explanatory.

Good to know that the US is the same as Canada regarding consent. I travel there quite often, and ya never know when your training will be required.

Actually, I now live in the Netherlands where fortunately things are much different. We have 'good Samaritan' laws here that actually require someone to help out to the best of their ability without putting themselves in danger. So, if someone falls into a canal here in Amsterdam, and you can swim, then you need to jump in after them - assuming that they're not panicing so much that they put you in danger.
I'm a Lifegaurd, but I'm not certified to gaurd canals. Canal aside, I wouldn't want everyone who can swim jumping in to save someone who is drowning. Everyone who can swim does not have the required training that involves rescuing a drowning person.

Actually, I just said 'fell into' but you're right - saving a drowning person is different from helping someone who just fell in. And that is different from saving someone who has drowned (but hasn't yet died from drowning).

You yourself said you were an Army medic, so was I for a long time. Nothing will stop me from doing my very best to preserve life.
[ cheers wildly ] Yayyy! :)

Well, DNR is kinda self explanatory.

Good to know that the US is the same as Canada regarding consent. I travel there quite often, and ya never know when your training will be required.
sadly, DNR creates alot of problems...because it isn't a "natural" death, and I work at a pool...we had a guy who wasn't breathing from drowning, but was a DNR, and I said we couldn't touch him untill the bracelet was gone...despite the fact that his condition that needed the DNR in the first place was not the cause of him being unconscious. Luckily, his wife ripped the bracelet off:)

sadly, DNR creates alot of problems...because it isn't a "natural" death, and I work at a pool...we had a guy who wasn't breathing from drowning, but was a DNR, and I said we couldn't touch him untill the bracelet was gone...despite the fact that his condition that needed the DNR in the first place was not the cause of him being unconscious. Luckily, his wife ripped the bracelet off:)
Good job....well done!! :)

Good job....well done!! :)
all I have to say is thank god his wife was there and took that bracelet off...I couldn't deal with not doing anything for him. I actually had to be the one to perform the CPR because my other coworkers were crying too hard...

Actually, I just said 'fell into' but you're right - saving a drowning person is different from helping someone who just fell in. And that is different from saving someone who has drowned (but hasn't yet died from drowning).
Ah, you did say that. When you mentioned panicing I jumped to conclusions. There's also a difference between those that fall in and deal with it, and those that fall in and panic. But, that's just country folk river fallin' talk, there! :)

I just wanna say I still stand by the points I responded to (if you disagree, or are unsure because of something someone else said, I suggest you do both of these:

Remember that if a tourniquet is needed for whatever reason (though it's usually advised against (by the National Health Service as well, as I just found out http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles/article.aspx?articleId=49&sectionId=5905)), it should only be applied by someone trained in how to apply it AND should be checked often and removed every so foetn (every 15 minutes I believe, though feel free to correct me) for a while (30 seconds to a minute I believe, though feel free to correct me)...

Research what you want to know, and only use reliable websites (such as education institutes or OFFICIAL Health information websites (such as the National Health Service website, Department of Health, etc. etc.)),

however, I suggest you don't rely on what the BBC says without checking it against something else - I just found a page where the BBC contradicts its self.

Um do you have a link to back taht up? As i'm sure i've read taht in places where people are trained in cpr, the lifes saved are higher
http://www.heartaed.com/Early_Defibrillation.htm

Basically the point is that having access to a defibrillator is what's going to make the difference.

When looking at any statistics though, make sure that one sees the absolute numbers as well as percentages. No matter which side of something you are arguing, one of those sets of data will give the impression you want without having to paint an accurate picture of reality.

I've only had to use a tourniquet twice in my entire career. Both times on someone who had (for one reason or another) lost a limb in some interesting and almost terminal way.
Actually I was talking a lady who runs my local pub a few months back, who told me about the time she and her husband were visiting relatives in Wales. They were in a nice little pub having a drink, and a chap walks in. Now Elaine notices that there is something wrong with this man, can't quite put her finger on it for a few seconds until she realises that his sleeve on the left arm is torn, blood spattered and quite empty. It seems this idiot had stuck his arm into a muck spreader to check if it was on! She used two bar towels and a lot of pressure. The man lost nearly a pint of blood, but survived because she applied pressure to the wound.
A tourniquet is a last resort, it should only ever even be considered by someone trained, and in the most dire of circumstances.

And again I repeat myself; life first law second. Don't let anything stop you from trying to save someones life. It's quite important to them.

http://www.heartaed.com/Early_Defibrillation.htm

Basically the point is that having access to a defibrillator is what's going to make the difference.

When looking at any statistics though, make sure that one sees the absolute numbers as well as percentages. No matter which side of something you are arguing, one of those sets of data will give the impression you want without having to paint an accurate picture of reality.

Exactly, a person who has had CPR performed on them has a chance to survive. Someone who has been left for 10 mins with no intervention has no chance.

Remember that if a tourniquet is needed for whatever reason (though it's usually advised against (by the National Health Service as well, as I just found out http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles/article.aspx?articleId=49&sectionId=5905)), it should only be applied by someone trained in how to apply it AND should be checked often and removed every so foetn (every 15 minutes I believe, though feel free to correct me) for a while (30 seconds to a minute I believe, though feel free to correct me)...

It's been quite a while (morte than 20 years) since I did my Red Cross and BSA first aid training, so this may have changed, but I was taught in both that once you apply a tourniquet, you never loosen or remove it, as it can cause death.

And looking around, it seems to still be the standing advise. Here's a couple of examples:

Never loosen or remove a tourniquet once it has been applied. The loosening of a tourniquet may dislodge clots and result in enough blood loss to cause shock and death.
source (http://www.brooksidepress.org/Products/OperationalMedicine/DATA/operationalmed/Manuals/Standard1stAid/chapter3.html)

All other methods of controlling bleeding should be tried before a tourniquet is applied. Once applied, it must stay snug until the victim arrives at the hospital.
source (http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d001101-d001200/d001108/d001108.html)

Top 10 first aid misconceptions:

1. "You should put butter or cream on a burn."
The only thing you should put on a burn is water - keep the butter for cooking!

2."If you can’t move a limb, it must be broken."
"If you can move a limb, or stand up with it, it can’t be broken."
The only accurate way to diagnose a broken limb is by x-raying it.

3. "The best way to treat bleeding is to put the wound under a tap."
If you put a bleeding wound under a tap, you will wash away the clotting agents and make it bleed more.

4."Nose bleeds are best treated by putting the head back."
If you put the head back for a nose bleed, all the blood will go down the back of the airway.

5. "A tourniquet is the best way to treat serious bleeding."
Tourniquets are NOT recommended for first aid - if you stop the blood flow to a limb for more than 10-15 minutes it will die.

6. "If someone has swallowed a poison you should make them sick."
If you make someone sick by putting your fingers in their mouth, the vomit may block the airway.

7. "If you perform CPR on someone who has a pulse you can damage the heart."
The evidence is that it isn’t dangerous to do chest compressions on a casualty with a pulse.

8. "You must always call an ambulance if you perform first aid."
Sometimes, first aid is all the casualty needs - don’t call an ambulance unless it’s an emergency.

9."To do first aid you need lots of training."
You don’t. What you mostly need is common sense - and you can learn enough first aid in 10 minutes to save a life.

10."You need lots of expensive equipment to do first aid."
You don’t need any equipment to do first aid - there are lots of ways to improvise anything you need. For instance, a clean handkerchief will make a good dressing.

SOURCE: http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/first_aid_action/getting_started_pg3.shtml (look further down the page when you click the link and get to the page)
1. Actually, anything that removes heat quickly would work, so some low-viscosity oils as well.

2. True

3. The best way to clean a wound. Once it's clean you remove it drom under the tap.

4. True, but it stops the bleeding the quickest.

5. Of course, if he's seriously bleeding like from an artery, than you damn well use a tourniquet. You loosen it every 5 minutes or so and then retighten it after 10-20 seconds.

6. True, but if you don't have an emetic, you sometimes have to take that risk.

7. True, unless you break a rib or crack their sternum. Not likely, but possible.

8. Again, if it looks to be a serious situation, it's better to call 911 earlier than later.

9. True.

10. Duh.

It's been quite a while (morte than 20 years) since I did my Red Cross and BSA first aid training, so this may have changed, but I was taught in both that once you apply a tourniquet, you never loosen or remove it, as it can cause death.

And looking around, it seems to still be the standing advise. Here's a couple of examples:


source (http://www.brooksidepress.org/Products/OperationalMedicine/DATA/operationalmed/Manuals/Standard1stAid/chapter3.html)


source (http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d001101-d001200/d001108/d001108.html)
Those are true, otoh if he doesn't want to lose the limb you better damn well loosen it. *shrugs* It's safer to leave it tight, but in some cases it's smarter to loosen it.

http://www.heartaed.com/Early_Defibrillation.htm

Basically the point is that having access to a defibrillator is what's going to make the difference.

When looking at any statistics though, make sure that one sees the absolute numbers as well as percentages. No matter which side of something you are arguing, one of those sets of data will give the impression you want without having to paint an accurate picture of reality.

hmm that appears to be from a website selling de-fibs. Me trusting their statistics would be like me trusting nuclear companies when they say there are no safety issues.

It's been quite a while (morte than 20 years) since I did my Red Cross and BSA first aid training, so this may have changed, but I was taught in both that once you apply a tourniquet, you never loosen or remove it, as it can cause death.

And looking around, it seems to still be the standing advise. Here's a couple of examples:


source (http://www.brooksidepress.org/Products/OperationalMedicine/DATA/operationalmed/Manuals/Standard1stAid/chapter3.html)


source (http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d001101-d001200/d001108/d001108.html)

I don't see how loosening or removing a Tourniquet could cause death. The reason for loosening or removing is so that the blood flow isn't prevented for too long, as it will cause the limb to die.

I think your standing advice seems to be different from other standing advice: From the UK's National Health Service: http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles/article.aspx?articleId=626&sectionId=9683

1. Actually, anything that removes heat quickly would work, so some low-viscosity oils as well.

2. True

3. The best way to clean a wound. Once it's clean you remove it drom under the tap.

4. True, but it stops the bleeding the quickest.

5. Of course, if he's seriously bleeding like from an artery, than you damn well use a tourniquet. You loosen it every 5 minutes or so and then retighten it after 10-20 seconds.

6. True, but if you don't have an emetic, you sometimes have to take that risk.

7. True, unless you break a rib or crack their sternum. Not likely, but possible.

8. Again, if it looks to be a serious situation, it's better to call 911 earlier than later.

9. True.

10. Duh.

Oh where on earth did you get your info from? I'm not going to respond to all the points, but putting a bleeding wound under a tap does prevent clotting agents, therefore if it's a serious cut, putting it under the tap can help the person DIE. This has been stated time and time again by Health professionals.

And your response to 4 could kill you. Noses bleed for a reason - and that reason is not to tell you to shove your head back as a potentially-lethal "quick-fix"

They were all good except for these two.

CPR involves checking for a pulse regularly.

May poisons recommend that you induce vomiting.
Here are four poisens I found under my kitchen sink:

Scoth Gaurd: Do Not Induce Vomiting
WD-40: Do No Induce Vomiting
Excelpet: Do Not induce Vomiting
DegreasPlus: Do Not Induce Vomiting

Those are true, otoh if he doesn't want to lose the limb you better damn well loosen it. *shrugs* It's safer to leave it tight, but in some cases it's smarter to loosen it.

Not unless you want the patient to die.

I don't see how loosening or removing a Tourniquet could cause death. The reason for loosening or removing is so that the blood flow isn't prevented for too long, as it will cause the limb to die.

What I was taught was that loosening or removing a tourniquet results in hypovolemic shock. Unless Aylestone, Eutrusca, or my various paramedic/EMT/first responder friends say otherwise, I will stand by this.

I think your standing advice seems to be different from other standing advice: From the UK's National Health Service: http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles...sectionId=9683

As has been mentioned before, you seem to misunderstand. Tournequets are for sever bleeding that cannot be stopped by any other means. Snake and other venemous animal bites should not have a tourniquet applied. EVER!

"Bites, snake" (your link) are completely different. That's the second link you've posted (of the two I looked at) that was unrelated to what you're posting (the other was the link to bite wounds). You really should be more careful.

Not unless you want the patient to die.



What I was taught was that loosening or removing a tourniquet results in hypovolemic shock. Unless Aylestone, Eutrusca, or my various paramedic/EMT/first responder friends say otherwise, I will stand by this.



As has been mentioned before, you seem to misunderstand. Tournequets are for sever bleeding that cannot be stopped by any other means. Snake and other venemous animal bites should not have a tourniquet applied. EVER!

"Bites, snake" (your link) are completely different. That's the second link you've posted (of the two I looked at) that was unrelated to what you're posting (the other was the link to bite wounds). You really should be more careful.

Tourniquets are dangerous to use for serious bleeding. They stop the blood flow (which is what they're for - think about it logically). Due to the fact they stop the blood flow, if you leave one on long enough, the limb will died. I will stand by what the National Health Service, my First Aid trainers, the Department of Health, and various other First Aid organisations say.

What you were taught was either rubbish, or is only applicable when a Tourniquet is used for something other than stopping bleeding.

Exactly, a person who has had CPR performed on them has a chance to survive. Someone who has been left for 10 mins with no intervention has no chance.

It's the kind of logic that reminds me of a scene from Dumb and Dumber
LLOYD --Come on, give it to me straight. I drove a long way to see you, the least you can do is level with me. What are my chances?

MARY Not good.

LLOYD You mean not good, like one out of a hundred?

MARY I'd say more like one out of a million.

LLOYD So you're telling me there's a chance?

Tourniquets are dangerous to use for serious bleeding. They stop the blood flow (which is what they're for - think about it logically). Due to the fact they stop the blood flow, if you leave one on long enough, the limb will died. I will stand by what the National Health Service, my First Aid trainers, the Department of Health, and various other First Aid organisations say.

What you were taught was either rubbish, or is only applicable when a Tourniquet is used for something other than stopping bleeding.
I've always been taught that 1.) tourniquets are an article of last resort, and only used if absolutely necessary, and 2.) NEVER REMOVE A TOURNIQUET IF YOU ARE NOT A DOCTOR. Most emphatically I might add. It has to do with the sudden drop in blood pressure that results from opening up the pressure, and makes for a fucking mess if you're not really careful. By mess, I mean possible death. You leave it to the professionals.

Tourniquets are dangerous to use for serious bleeding. They stop the blood flow (which is what they're for - think about it logically). Due to the fact they stop the blood flow, if you leave one on long enough, the limb will died. I will stand by what the National Health Service, my First Aid trainers, the Department of Health, and various other First Aid organisations say.

What you were taught was either rubbish, or is only applicable when a Tourniquet is used for something other than stopping bleeding.

A) What part of "Tourniquets are for sever bleeding that cannot be stopped by any other means." did you fail to read? Yes, a tourniquet is a serious last resort. No one here has said any different. But releasing/loosening one is a potentially fatal action. Only a surgeon should do so.

B) The only use for a tourniquet is bleeding that cannot be stopped by anyother means, as I and several other have said. This is something you seem to have failked to understand, as you have posted links for bites as your evidence.

C) I've backed up my claims with evidence from first aid manuals. Care to back up yours?

D) I provide further evidence:
Do not loosen or remove the tourniquet untill the victim has reached professional medical help
http://www.abc-of-snowboarding.com/firstaid/bleedings.asp

Once in place, a tourniquet must be left there until a physician removes it.
http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d000701-d000800/d000799/d000799.html

Should you ever remove or loosen a tourniquet?
No, only qualified medical personnel can do that
long url (http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/First_Aid/first-aid-study-guide.shtml)

Q. When should you loosen or remove a tourniquet?
A. Never. A tourniquet should only be loosened or removed by a physician.
http://www.military-net.com/education/mpdfirstaid.html

If you or the persons I named above can provide sufficirent evidence that having a person other than an MD releasing a tourniquet is an accepted medical practice, I will consider it. Until then, I can only say you are disseminating harmful information and bad advice in regards to this.

I've always been taught that 1.) tourniquets are an article of last resort, and only used if absolutely necessary, and 2.) NEVER REMOVE A TOURNIQUET IF YOU ARE NOT A DOCTOR. Most emphatically I might add. It has to do with the sudden drop in blood pressure that results from opening up the pressure, and makes for a fucking mess if you're not really careful. By mess, I mean possible death. You leave it to the professionals.

Exactly so. Like I said above, hypovolemic shock.

Hopefully, anything that anyone "learns" on this thread will be taken with a grain of salt. If anyone has an inclination to "practice" first aid, I strongly suggest that you actually take the required courses. In the long run everyone will benefit.

I think I said it best:
LEARN NOTHING FROM THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT FIRST AID!
Unless taken with a grain of salt. Which I thought was written on the NS General First Aid brochure that was distributed.

You say this why? What evidence do you have to say that you can tell if a bone is broken without it being X-rayed?



What you said here is EXTREMELY dangerous. Torniquets have been shown to stop blood flow and cause limbs to die (and if you think about it logically, it's pretty obvious that they would do that if you left them on too long, as the intention of them IS to stop blood flow)



I agree with this one, but that's no use if you don't have the label to hand



I agree. I dunno about America, but if you genuinely think something is serious enough to warrant an ambulance, you won't be fined for calling one.

Didn't you read the actual words Eutrusca posted?

A TOURNIQUET IS NECESSARY IN THE CASE OF A SEVERED LIMB. Would you have the victim bleed out?

Oh where on earth did you get your info from? I'm not going to respond to all the points, but putting a bleeding wound under a tap does prevent clotting agents, therefore if it's a serious cut, putting it under the tap can help the person DIE. This has been stated time and time again by Health professionals.

And your response to 4 could kill you. Noses bleed for a reason - and that reason is not to tell you to shove your head back as a potentially-lethal "quick-fix"
You're really not very bright, are you? I mean, when it comes to actually reading others' posts.

He said that you'd put the wound under the tap to CLEAN IT. Y'know, to help reduce the potential for infection? He's not talking about a seventeen centimeter trans-vessel laceration, he's talking about something like an abrasion that might have a lot of dirt or other infectious agents in it. Clearly, you don't worry about clean if the bleeding is severe.

The section I bolded makes no sense. A nosebleed can't "tell" you anything. You've been shotgunning this thread for a while now. Please go get some rest.

Tourniquets are dangerous to use for serious bleeding. They stop the blood flow (which is what they're for - think about it logically). Due to the fact they stop the blood flow, if you leave one on long enough, the limb will died. I will stand by what the National Health Service, my First Aid trainers, the Department of Health, and various other First Aid organisations say.

What you were taught was either rubbish, or is only applicable when a Tourniquet is used for something other than stopping bleeding.
All right. Please shut the hell up. It's clear you're not reading the posts or following the links those posters have used.

Eutrusca is not talking about just "severe bleeding" -- he means a goddamned AMPUTATION! Stopping the blood flow in that case is critical and a tourniquet must be used if IF IF other methods aren't working. Do you GET that? Can I make it any plainer?

And your response to 4 could kill you. Noses bleed for a reason - and that reason is not to tell you to shove your head back as a potentially-lethal "quick-fix"
oh please:rolleyes:

its a fucking nose bleed. You aren't going to die from it. If you tilt your head back, it will run down your throat into your stomach. Worst that happens is you puke it up later, and that is only if you bleed a full pint, in which case, somethings pretty seriously wrong.

oh please:rolleyes:

its a fucking nose bleed. You aren't going to die from it. If you tilt your head back, it will run down your throat into your stomach. Worst that happens is you puke it up later, and that is only if you bleed a full pint, in which case, somethings pretty seriously wrong.

Not much has really outraged me on here, but what you just said is F*CKING STUPID.

If you tilt your head back, the blood can go into your brain. This isn't how blood is supposed to go into your brain, so it messes it up and can cause brain damage or even death

RE: posts about me not being very bright. Clearly you didn't read what I wrote properly. Yes you can clean a SMALL wound with water, though this is not reccommended (you are supposed to use an antiseptic wipe/spray), and it's certainly not supposed be done by sticking it under a tap - you used something soaked in water. If you try cleaning a large wound in this way, the clotting agents will be prevented, heightening your chance of DEATH.

Not much has really outraged me on here, but what you just said is F*CKING STUPID.

If you tilt your head back, the blood can go into your brain. This isn't how blood is supposed to go into your brain, so it messes it up and can cause brain damage or even death
Must be a lot of severly brain damaged kids then, because almost everyone I know of has dealt with a nose bleed that way.

Not much has really outraged me on here, but what you just said is F*CKING STUPID.

If you tilt your head back, the blood can go into your brain. This isn't how blood is supposed to go into your brain, so it messes it up and can cause brain damage or even death
no, it is you who has no clue what they are talking about.

There is no passage from your nose to your brain. Period. Under your theory, air should be filling up peoples skulls right now.

Note: Do not tilt your head back. This may cause blood to run down the back of your throat, and you may swallow it. Swallowed blood can irritate your stomach and cause vomiting. Spit out any blood that gathers in your mouth and throat rather than swallowing it.
http://www.webmd.com/hw/trauma_first_aid/hw98289.asp

as I said before. Worst that happens is you swallow blood and puke it up later. You won't die.

Must be a lot of severly brain damaged kids then, because almost everyone I know of has dealt with a nose bleed that way.

I said it CAN. I never said it would. And in any case, even if it only went down your airway, it's still not good to have blood going down there.

Not that it makes much difference since many people on here never seem willing to listen, I retract my comment about nosebleeds causing death.

However http://familydoctor.org/132.xml - see what they can cause - nausea, vomiting and diarrhea. You're NOT supposed to tilt the head back.

Oh and http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles/article.aspx?articleId=264&sectionId=9840

Not much has really outraged me on here, but what you just said is F*CKING STUPID.

If you tilt your head back, the blood can go into your brain. This isn't how blood is supposed to go into your brain, so it messes it up and can cause brain damage or even death

Where on Earth did you ever get that idea? :confused: That's just completely ignorant. Anyone who's passed even junior high school biology should know better.

Aw jeez... so much anger about nosebleeds.

Tilting your head back is not the way to deal with them, not because it is potentially dangerous, but simply because it's fucking ineffective (unless your goal is to swallow lots of blood).

Any medical proffesional will tell you to press on your nostril on the outside high up, against the bone, hard enough to stop the blood flow. Hold until a clot forms.

Trust me, I've had enough bloody noses to know. This method was taught me by a doctor, and it works.

oh please:rolleyes:

its a fucking nose bleed. You aren't going to die from it. If you tilt your head back, it will run down your throat into your stomach. Worst that happens is you puke it up later, and that is only if you bleed a full pint, in which case, somethings pretty seriously wrong.
Well, I do not like to disagree with you, but I do. When I saw this, I remember my first aid training directed us to pinch the nose and tilt the head forward with the patient seated.

From St. John First Aid (http://www.stjohn.org.nz/tips/nosebleeds.aspx):

1. Sit the patient down and loosen any tight clothing about the neck and chest.

2. Advise the patient to breathe through the mouth, with the head tilted forward. Get him or her to pinch the entire soft part of the nose. The first aider may have to do this if the patient is unable to.

3. Until the bleeding has stopped discourage the patient from talking, swallowing, coughing, spitting, sniffing or raising the head. Allow any blood to drip into a container held in front of the patient.

4. Maintain the pressure for a full 10 minutes. If bleeding has not been controlled, repeat pressure for another 10 minutes.

5. Have the patient clean around the nose with a swab moistened with warm water.

6. When the bleeding stops tell the patient not to blow his or her nose for at least 4 hours, and to avoid exertion so as to not disturb the clot.

7. If the bleeding has not stopped after 30 minutes or the patient show signs of shock, seek urgent medical aid.

Getting sued for practicing first aid only happens in some countries. Not everyone has laws that don’t protect public safety or common sense. When a medic was teaching first aid in the military to us, they actually went over the legality. Most of my first aid was aimed mostly at treating cuts and gunshot wounds, with less emphasis on a lot of things that are regular first aid issues.

In the US, yes you can be sued for practicing first aid or pretty much any other involvement in anyone else’s personal space. It’s one of the more stupid aspects of a litigation society. Then again we could all do with a few less weasely lawyers.

In Canada, as a first responder using first aid, you are protected by the Good Samaritan Act. That means that if you practice first aid up to your ability, including common sense, you cannot be sued for your intervention. Of course if a first aider attempts open heart surgery with a butter knife on the roof of a car then you will get in trouble.

In Quebec, they work more with the Napoleonic Code. They take the Good Samaritan Act to the next level. In Quebec if you see someone hurt and fail to stop and render assistance then you could be charged criminally for your negligence. It’s the opposite of the state of madness that exists in US law regarding the rendering of first aid. In Quebec they are saying that the citizen has responsibilities to their fellow citizen.

The Bruce

Personally, I think that there’s no excuse why First Aid isn’t mandatory in Public Schools. They have Consumer Education classes then they can add something that’s actually useful to the curriculum.

It teaches good life saving skills and confidence. Also it opens up students to a new area of learning, first responder career path, that biology class doesn’t address. Having a good First Aid ticket can open your way into a lot of jobs in the market, even if you never have to use it.

Well, I do not like to disagree with you, but I do. When I saw this, I remember my first aid training directed us to pinch the nose and tilt the head forward with the patient seated.

From St. John First Aid (http://www.stjohn.org.nz/tips/nosebleeds.aspx):

1. Sit the patient down and loosen any tight clothing about the neck and chest.

2. Advise the patient to breathe through the mouth, with the head tilted forward. Get him or her to pinch the entire soft part of the nose. The first aider may have to do this if the patient is unable to.

3. Until the bleeding has stopped discourage the patient from talking, swallowing, coughing, spitting, sniffing or raising the head. Allow any blood to drip into a container held in front of the patient.

4. Maintain the pressure for a full 10 minutes. If bleeding has not been controlled, repeat pressure for another 10 minutes.

5. Have the patient clean around the nose with a swab moistened with warm water.

6. When the bleeding stops tell the patient not to blow his or her nose for at least 4 hours, and to avoid exertion so as to not disturb the clot.

7. If the bleeding has not stopped after 30 minutes or the patient show signs of shock, seek urgent medical aid.

well, I have good news...we don't disagree (well, except for step one. when you have a screaming brat whos freaking out over a bloody nose, I suggest tightening clothing around the neck;) )

tilting forward is better...my only point was that tilting back isn't going to cause death, or even any severe consequences...yeah, you might puke or get the shits, but you aren't about to die from that. Believe me, when I got my wisdom teeth out, I swallowed tons of blood. It sucked, but hardly life threatening.

Personally, I think that there’s no excuse why First Aid isn’t mandatory in Public Schools. They have Consumer Education classes then they can add something that’s actually useful to the curriculum.

It teaches good life saving skills and confidence. Also it opens up students to a new area of learning, first responder career path, that biology class doesn’t address. Having a good First Aid ticket can open your way into a lot of jobs in the market, even if you never have to use it.

It was required at my high school. The rerquired "health" class included basic first aid and CPR.

Getting sued for practicing first aid only happens in some countries. Not everyone has laws that don’t protect public safety or common sense. When a medic was teaching first aid in the military to us, they actually went over the legality. Most of my first aid was aimed mostly at treating cuts and gunshot wounds, with less emphasis on a lot of things that are regular first aid issues.

In the US, yes you can be sued for practicing first aid or pretty much any other involvement in anyone else’s personal space. It’s one of the more stupid aspects of a litigation society. Then again we could all do with a few less weasely lawyers.

In Canada, as a first responder using first aid, you are protected by the Good Samaritan Act. That means that if you practice first aid up to your ability, including common sense, you cannot be sued for your intervention. Of course if a first aider attempts open heart surgery with a butter knife on the roof of a car then you will get in trouble.

In Quebec, they work more with the Napoleonic Code. They take the Good Samaritan Act to the next level. In Quebec if you see someone hurt and fail to stop and render assistance then you could be charged criminally for your negligence. It’s the opposite of the state of madness that exists in US law regarding the rendering of first aid. In Quebec they are saying that the citizen has responsibilities to their fellow citizen.

The Brucethat is actually the situation I'm in in CT...I'm lifeguard cert. and if I see someone and they are even just screaming "help", I have to respond...I'm actually under more strict regulation than my father, a doctor, because he has never been CPR certified (he obviously knows it, but has never bothered to get the card because he is protected anyway.)
but if the person says yes to help, I can do what I need without fear of legal issues from them or the family

What I was taught was that loosening or removing a tourniquet results in hypovolemic shock. Unless Aylestone, Eutrusca, or my various paramedic/EMT/first responder friends say otherwise, I will stand by this.

Just got my confirm back from the paramedic:

NEVER loosen a tourniquet.

I was always taught that the tourniquet was the absolute last resort. In fact if you want to freak out a First Aid Class teacher all you pretty much need to do is suggest it as a first response to bleeding. Pretty much the only time you should even think about immediately resort to a tourniquet is an accident resulting in limb amputation. Even then you’re supposed to double bag the limb and get some ice with it but not in direct contact or cell death results. Pressure to the artery of the bleeding limb is always preferable to a tourniquet. Just hope you’re not wearing your favourite shirt when you doing this…

For tourniquets your also suggested to put a stick in it to loosen it off once in a while, to prevent cell death (it could be that that’s changed, since these things are updated and revised frequently like the four stacked breath method in reviving people not breathing). Anytime you put a tourniquet on someone you also need to write TQ (or was it TK I can’t remember off the top of my head) on their forehead and include the time you started the procedure.

The Bruce

I was always taught that the tourniquet was the absolute last resort. In fact if you want to freak out a First Aid Class teacher all you pretty much need to do is suggest it as a first response to bleeding. Pretty much the only time you should even think about immediately resort to a tourniquet is an accident resulting in limb amputation. Even then you’re supposed to double bag the limb and get some ice with it but not in direct contact or cell death results. Pressure to the artery of the bleeding limb is always preferable to a tourniquet. Just hope you’re not wearing your favourite shirt when you doing this…

For tourniquets your also suggested to put a stick in it to loosen it off once in a while, to prevent cell death (it could be that that’s changed, since these things are updated and revised frequently like the four stacked breath method in reviving people not breathing). Anytime you put a tourniquet on someone you also need to write TQ (or was it TK I can’t remember off the top of my head) on their forehead and include the time you started the procedure.

The Bruce

Well, as I posted immediately above, my paramedic friend said NEVER loosen one. Otherwise exactly so.

I once delivered a premature infant using techniques I remembered from a first aid manual.

I had no previous formal medical training or even first-aid course - I picked up that manual is an old yard sale.

Still, the paramedics said she was damned lucky I remembered most of everything right.

Just don't ask me about delivering the placenta.