NationStates Jolt Archive

Let me revise the title...
Can Jesus be likened to a terrorist?

He took up residence in synagogues preaching his own radical beliefs, brainwashing people to join him. He opposed authority figures of the time, and went against general social trends. And in the end they had to crucify him to shut him up.

Admittedly, as far as we are aware, he himself did not advocate violence.
Bear in mind the New Testament was written by people that truly believed in him sometime after the events occured. It could be considered narrow-minded to accept the text as an absolute truth, and that there are no omissions and/or falsehoods.

Discuss...

Jesus wasn't a terrorist, Jesus was a liberal hippy communist. If anyone was a terrorist in the bible it was Peter, he went around hacking at Romans with his sword, carried a bag of severed ears around with him.

Yup... Terrorists generally have to actually commit violence. And that doesn't seem to be something that Jesus did. As well, in the secular histories of the time (Flavius Iosephus, I think is one historian), they never mention anything about an uprising or military following surrounding Jesus. It's generally just a religious movement mentioned.

Yup... Terrorists generally have to actually commit violence. And that doesn't seem to be something that Jesus did. As well, in the secular histories of the time (Flavius Iosephus, I think is one historian), they never mention anything about an uprising or military following surrounding Jesus. It's generally just a religious movement mentioned.


Ever hear the story of Jesus and the Moneylenders?

Thats the one where Jesus gets highly pissed at the moneylenders who where doing business inside the temple, apparently.
Well see, that dont play in Big J's hizzy dawg.

So he takes a scourge..(thats a metal whip with barbs on it, kinda like several strands of barbed wire) and whips the ever-loving monkey crap outta them, driving them from the temple.

Ever see pictures of people getting whipped with mere leather whips?
Pretty gruesome.
Now imagine those wounds made with a scourge.

Probably fatal from blood loss, or infection, or at best, mutilation.

Jesus was no stranger to violence.
If the story is true.

To above post:
As far as I know, Jesus didn't use a scourge. He just flipped up tables, uncaged doves for sale, etc.

To above post:
As far as I know, Jesus didn't use a scourge. He just flipped up tables, uncaged doves for sale, etc.


Im poorly versed in the bible, but Im almost positive he used a scourge.

well jesus wasnt exactly a law abbiding citizen, but i would not say he was a terrorist, a criminal and conman/cult leader, yes but not a terrorist

Jesus was the ring leader of Al Quaeda. Squatch has unwittingly provided us conclusive proof from the Bible.

Jesus was the ring leader of Al Quaeda. Squatch has unwittingly provided us conclusive proof from the Bible.


I did?

Holy crap, Im good!

Wow...I bet thats the first time the bible had conclusively proven anything.

Wow...I bet thats the first time the bible had conclusively proven anything.

And quite probably the last.

Let me revise the title...
Can Jesus be likened to a terrorist?

He took up residence in synagogues preaching his own radical beliefs, brainwashing people to join him. He opposed authority figures of the time, and went against general social trends. And in the end they had to crucify him to shut him up.

Admittedly, as far as we are aware, he himself did not advocate violence.
Bear in mind the New Testament was written by people that truly believed in him sometime after the events occured. It could be considered narrow-minded to accept the text as an absolute truth, and that there are no omissions and/or falsehoods.

Discuss...

WOW!

More Christian bashing disguised as a question.

Why don't you make a thread asking if Mohamed was a terrorist?

Yes and praise Allah for it!

Let me revise the title...
Can Jesus be likened to a terrorist?
.........................................
No. He was gay.:headbang:

Im poorly versed in the bible, but Im almost positive he used a scourge.
what LA ICE said was true...he just flipped tables and uncaged birds as well as telling the lads that they were out of line for defiling the temple.

Your guys' ideas if you actually read the bible would be :sniper: "shot down" I suggest reading it since you apparently have no clue. lol

Im poorly versed in the bible, but Im almost positive he used a scourge.

He didn't use a scourge.

Why don't you verify facts before posting them.

Are you Sure?

I don't think Jesus was ever a terrorist sure he might have 'brainwashed' people by performing all his miracles but, what matters is that Jesus never actually committed violence against anybody - not even the Romans who ended up sticking him to a cross and leaving him to die in agony. Perhaps he didn't always stick to the law of the land but he was in no way a terrorist.

:eek: :sniper:

what LA ICE said was true...he just flipped tables and uncaged birds as well as telling the lads that they were out of line for defiling the temple.

Your guys' ideas if you actually read the bible would be :sniper: "shot down" I suggest reading it since you apparently have no clue. lol
Depends on what version of the bible you read. He very well could have read that Jesus used a scourge. Even today, bibles can tell a completely different story from one to the next.

Jesus was a terrorist
Enemy of the state
That's what the Romans labeled him
So he was put to death

He died for his beliefs
What's changed today?

Today bible-thumping cannibals
Reap money from his name
Buy cable networks & power
With old ladies' checks

If Jesus saw Pat Robertson
What do you think he'd say?
Tax free then re-write our laws
And sick 'em on you
Women don't control their bodies
TV preachers do

Censor everything from bathing suits
To science books
From the schoolroom to the bedroom
They want our thoughts - or else

They treat us like the Romans
Used to treat the Christians
Even some church-going folks are scared

Modern catacombs of fear
Built with money, power, and threats
Rock 'n Roll is labeled porn
Sell a record, you're under arrest

Instead of fighting AIDS
They try to stop us having sex
They brag that they won't quit
Till they take dominion over our lives

Is freedom of speech such a terrorist act
Is spiritual peace such a satanic threat
Believe what you want
But we'll fight to keep
Our heads from being cemented in your sand

:D

Depends on what version of the bible you read. He very well could have read that Jesus used a scourge. Even today, bibles can tell a completely different story from one to the next.

Exactly. Some of the interpretations are very different.

Exactly. Some of the interpretations are very different.

If there is a translation that says Jesus used violence against someone I'd love to see it. Healing the sick, chiding those who say ignorant things, loves those who do not agree with him. Didn't he chide Peter for removing that guy's ear then healed the man? I don't see how anyone can claim that Jesus ever used violence.

He may of had radical beliefs, but he never used violence to force his ways on those who didn't believe in him. That and mostly he spoke of forgiveness and love of others were the most important to find God. He was crucified because Jewish elders were afraid of the popularity he was gaining from people which undercut their hold of the faith and money making ablities that came with their position. For example the story of the widow donating one penny and the rich donating a dollar, God holds the widow's donation in higher esteem because she gave all that she could and the rich man donated what he had left over to make himself look good. Good question though

Okay, fully realising that this is simply a flame bait, I'm going to post anyway with multiple versions.

From Matthew Chapter 2 Verses 12-13

King James Version - One of the oldest and most reliable English translations.

12And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

New International Version.

2Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves.

The Message

12Jesus went straight to the Temple and threw out everyone who had set up shop, buying and selling. He kicked over the tables of loan sharks and the stalls of dove merchants.


New Living Translation

12Jesus entered the Temple and began to drive out the merchants and their customers. He knocked over the tables of the money changers and the stalls of those selling doves.

English Standard

12And Jesus entered the temple[a] and drove out all who sold and bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons.

I have the main ones covered for Matthew, now for John Chapter 2 Verses 13-16

New International Version

13When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!"

New American Standard Bible

13(A)The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus (B)went up to Jerusalem.

14(C)And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables.

15And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;

16and to those who were selling (D)the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making (E)My Father's house a place of business."

The Message

13When the Passover Feast, celebrated each spring by the Jews, was about to take place, Jesus travelled up to Jerusalem. 14He found the Temple teeming with people selling cattle and sheep and doves. The loan sharks were also there in full strength.

15Jesus put together a whip out of strips of leather and chased them out of the Temple, stampeding the sheep and cattle, upending the tables of the loan sharks, spilling coins left and right. 16He told the dove merchants, "Get your things out of here! Stop turning my Father's house into a shopping mall!"

Amplified Bible

13Now the Passover of the Jews was approaching, so Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

14There He found in the temple [[a]enclosure] those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers sitting there [also at their stands].

15And having made a lash (a whip) of cords, He drove them all out of the temple [[b]enclosure]--both the sheep and the oxen--spilling and scattering the brokers' money and upsetting and tossing around their trays (their stands).

New Living Translation

3It was time for the annual Passover celebration, and Jesus went to Jerusalem. 14In the Temple area he saw merchants selling cattle, sheep, and doves for sacrifices; and he saw money changers behind their counters. 15Jesus made a whip from some ropes and chased them all out of the Temple. He drove out the sheep and oxen, scattered the money changers' coins over the floor, and turned over their tables. 16Then, going over to the people who sold doves, he told them, "Get these things out of here. Don't turn my Father's house into a marketplace!"

King James

13And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

14And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

15And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

16And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

Obviously there is points of contention between the two translations, however as a Christian myself, I would go for the Scourge.

Now many people, including myself failed to understand at how could Jesus be clean of sin, if in fact he actually done harm, as he quite clearly was roused to anger.

But now, I'm going to get alot of flames here, but the Christian teaching is that the anger demonstrated here was not sin. To claim it was would also mean that God too has sinned - flood - plagues - Sodom and what not. But no, here Jesus displays a type of anger that is acceptable to the Lord, it is a righteous anger, which is not based upon human means and gains, but one based on the glorification and sanctification of the Lord. This anger was not a selfish anger from Jesus, but it was in fact a selfless emotion for the LORD.

I am not here to debate on circumstances or anything else, I am here to show those who havn't bothered to read the bible, even though the feel very happy to comment on it, the actual thoughts of the largest religion in the world.

Finally,

Jesus was a terrorist
Enemy of the state
That's what the Romans labelled him
So he was put to death

In fact the Romans didn't want to execute him clearly shown in the Gospels.


20But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus executed.

21"Which of the two do you want me to release to you?" asked the governor.
"Barabbas," they answered.

22"What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?" Pilate asked.
They all answered, "Crucify him!"

23"Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate.
But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"

24When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!"

25All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children!"

26Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

Shown in the text here, it clearly shows that it was in fact the Jews, not the Romans who wished to execute Jesus, at every move Pilate attempted to avoid the execution.

I am quite happy to put forward my learning's on the subject if asked, but I'm not going to debate. If someone wishes to know what I believe, or perhaps they would like to know more about the events, then I will of course respond. But I am not going to be dragged into a flame war.

It's not Christian :)

What people dont realize is that, all those missing years from jesus's life, are there, in the Koran. That whole missing section, the whole thing, from when he was 12 to when he was 30 or whatever it is. People say it was a mystical mystery...no it wasn't, the christans choose to leave those parts out of the bible for a reason, becuase those parts show his evil and demented side, he even fucking killed people, when he was young, he killed his best freind by throwing him off a cliff, then when the towns people freaked out Jesus used his powers to bring the dead child back to life and said the even never happened becuase how could the child be dead when he's standing right here,
the savoir of humanity was nothing more than a real life magicion.

What people dont realize is that, all those missing years from jesus's life, are there, in the Koran. That whole missing section, the whole thing, from when he was 12 to when he was 30 or whatever it is. People say it was a mystical mystery...no it wasn't, the christans choose to leave those parts out of the bible for a reason, becuase those parts show his evil and demented side, he even fucking killed people, when he was young, he killed his best freind by throwing him off a cliff, then when the towns people freaked out Jesus used his powers to bring the dead child back to life and said the even never happened becuase how could the child be dead when he's standing right here,
the savoir of humanity was nothing more than a real life magicion.

It doesn't say any of that in the Koran.

Please point to the parts of the Koran that say these things.

There is a reason why Jesus overturned the tables at the Temple and threw out the money changers. And that is the only passage I can think of that mentions anything about semi-violence that Jesus did, hardly an indictment of terrorism. Please feel free to correct me, just have some courtesy and be polite about it. This topic probably will get many upset, so can we have some respect about it and maybe avoid a holy way

Let me revise the title...
Can Jesus be likened to a terrorist?

He took up residence in synagogues preaching his own radical beliefs, brainwashing people to join him. He opposed authority figures of the time, and went against general social trends. And in the end they had to crucify him to shut him up.

Admittedly, as far as we are aware, he himself did not advocate violence.
Bear in mind the New Testament was written by people that truly believed in him sometime after the events occured. It could be considered narrow-minded to accept the text as an absolute truth, and that there are no omissions and/or falsehoods.

Discuss...
:upyours:

Ever hear the story of Jesus and the Moneylenders?

Thats the one where Jesus gets highly pissed at the moneylenders who where doing business inside the temple, apparently.
Well see, that dont play in Big J's hizzy dawg.

So he takes a scourge..(thats a metal whip with barbs on it, kinda like several strands of barbed wire) and whips the ever-loving monkey crap outta them, driving them from the temple.

Ever see pictures of people getting whipped with mere leather whips?
Pretty gruesome.
Now imagine those wounds made with a scourge.

Probably fatal from blood loss, or infection, or at best, mutilation.

Jesus was no stranger to violence.
If the story is true.
I've never heard the "scourge" version of that story before, but even if true, that was not terrorism so much as justified anti-capitalist resistance.

He didn't use a scourge.

Why don't you verify facts before posting them.
Yeah, I'm skeptical abut whether BackwoodsSquatches was actually trying to add something productive to the discussion, or if he was just trying to take a shit on Christians.

There is a reason why Jesus overturned the tables at the Temple and threw out the money changers. And that is the only passage I can think of that mentions anything about semi-violence that Jesus did, hardly an indictment of terrorism. Please feel free to correct me, just have some courtesy and be polite about it. This topic probably will get many upset, so can we have some respect about it and maybe avoid a holy way

This topic was designed to start trouble.

*wicked snippage*

applauds wildly

now THAT is the way to bring evidence into a thread! not talking about it, not picking only the parts that make your point. just laying it right out there

well done!!

even in the parts where he uses a scourge, how many times do you think he would hit YOU if you were in that temple? probably none, maybe once if you got caught in the fleeing crowd. it would hurt but it would be limited. its not like a realy scourging where a person is tied to a pole and can't get away.

no matter what jesus' eventual followers ended up doing, jesus neither particpated in terrorism nor advocated it.

In my opinion:

The bible is simply a collection of stories with moral points to each of them so that over long stretches of time, people can look to it and use it as a guide for their lives and how life should continue to go on. To take it literally at any level, would be missing the point entirely. Mentionings of 'The Apocalypse' and so on are simply metaphors for the day when people live immorally and have lost their ancient traditions. I just think that it was easier for people over time(especially the dark age) to believe the magic stories about Heaven, Hell, and Jesus, rather than being responsible by themselves. They needed something to run from and something to run to, and in the end that isnt wrong until you take it literally and believe that there really is a firey end for sinners.

To whoever said that Jesus was a Liberal-Hippy-Communist:
(Not out of spite, I just dont know your name)

Wouldnt any of you agree that the best form of government for all is a dictatorship or communism? By dictatorship, I certainly dont mean anything like Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, The Pharaohs, or anyone similar to those. And by communism I dont mean Stalin or Fidel. I believe the best form of government would be a form of Big Brother (1984), or from what I suppose a 'Father Knows Best State' is although Ive only seen that name from this site. The problem with democracy is that people dont want to participate in governments of incomprehensible size to them, they only want to run their lives with their neighbors, and be safe.

A perfect government is where you have one leader/Group that takes care of all major decisions, one you can trust. A source that lets you know that there is someone up there thats knows what they are doing while still giving you the right to live as you please.

Is this not an image of God himself?

Wouldnt that make Religon a dream of good government? Maybe people werent so bad off in the middle ages. As long as they understood the point. The only thing is that barbarians and feudalism took that away.

Ok sorry, im babbling now but you see my point. If you read this far that is.

What people dont realize is that, all those missing years from jesus's life, are there, in the Koran. That whole missing section, the whole thing, from when he was 12 to when he was 30 or whatever it is. People say it was a mystical mystery...no it wasn't, the christans choose to leave those parts out of the bible for a reason, becuase those parts show his evil and demented side, he even fucking killed people, when he was young, he killed his best freind by throwing him off a cliff, then when the towns people freaked out Jesus used his powers to bring the dead child back to life and said the even never happened becuase how could the child be dead when he's standing right here,
the savoir of humanity was nothing more than a real life magicion.

That sounds suspicously like Anne Rice's account of Jesus's childhood, by her own admission a work of fiction...

-snip-

I second Ashmoria, this is an excellent post.

Was Jesus a terrorist? No, he didn't commit any acts of terrorism.

However, having read Revelations I think we can probably charge him with 'conspiracy to commit an act of terror' and lock him up indefinitely.

Jesus wasn't a terrorist, more of a religious activist if the term could be applied.

I am pretty sure though, that he would turn into one, once he saw the present state of those that (supposedly) follow his words...

What? Of course he wasn't. Considering he never committed any violent acts and spoke out against them...

What people forget is that the Jewish faith around the time of Jesus had splintered into many factions, the pharisees being the most notable. Jesus was a Rabbi, and at that time Rabbis were considered the most learned in society.

As a result they had the right to put forward radical new ideas about the faith. It was a Rabbis duty to teach, and that's what Jesus done.

Jesus was not a terrorist, nor did he go against the rules of society, he went against the Pharisees and other denominations, nothing more, nothing less.

In fact the Romans didn't want to execute him clearly shown in the Gospels.


Tell the folks who wrote the song, not me :p

*Looks at the OP*

Oh, crud. A flamin' war's a comin'.

*Runs off to get his flame-proof clothing.*

Christ could not have been a terrorist, because christians wrote the history books.

In my opinion:

The bible is simply a collection of stories with moral points to each of them so that over long stretches of time, people can look to it and use it as a guide for their lives and how life should continue to go on. To take it literally at any level, would be missing the point entirely. Mentionings of 'The Apocalypse' and so on are simply metaphors for the day when people live immorally and have lost their ancient traditions. I just think that it was easier for people over time(especially the dark age) to believe the magic stories about Heaven, Hell, and Jesus, rather than being responsible by themselves. They needed something to run from and something to run to, and in the end that isnt wrong until you take it literally and believe that there really is a firey end for sinners.

To whoever said that Jesus was a Liberal-Hippy-Communist:
(Not out of spite, I just dont know your name)

Wouldnt any of you agree that the best form of government for all is a dictatorship or communism? By dictatorship, I certainly dont mean anything like Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, The Pharaohs, or anyone similar to those. And by communism I dont mean Stalin or Fidel. I believe the best form of government would be a form of Big Brother (1984), or from what I suppose a 'Father Knows Best State' is although Ive only seen that name from this site. The problem with democracy is that people dont want to participate in governments of incomprehensible size to them, they only want to run their lives with their neighbors, and be safe.

A perfect government is where you have one leader/Group that takes care of all major decisions, one you can trust. A source that lets you know that there is someone up there thats knows what they are doing while still giving you the right to live as you please.

Is this not an image of God himself?

Wouldnt that make Religon a dream of good government? Maybe people werent so bad off in the middle ages. As long as they understood the point. The only thing is that barbarians and feudalism took that away.

Ok sorry, im babbling now but you see my point. If you read this far that is.

NO!

Jesus was a hippie.

He had long hair, preeched love for all mankind, wore sandals, didn't have a job, was against the death penalty, many people believe that he was of a sect of Jewish vegetarians, he helped people that everyone else ignored, and he was wrongly condemned by his society.

He was most definately not a terrorist.

Was Jesus a terrorist? No, he didn't commit any acts of terrorism.

However, having read Revelations I think we can probably charge him with 'conspiracy to commit an act of terror' and lock him up indefinitely.

:D

Clearly not a terrorist. He used social juijitsu tactics and peacefully turned the laws against those in power for the benefit of his people.
No more of a terrorist than Ghandi.

NO!
elaborate because he has a point.

Well, I doubt Jesus whipped anyone.

As for the temple thing, think about it. Those salesmen were de-holifying the place. It's almost the equivalent of drawing Mohhammad or turning a cross upside down(upside down crosses=something satanic). Jesus was breaking the law to not break what might be considered their version of a constitutoinal amendment. Of course, Jesushaters added "forgotten" parts to paint a picture of an ancient Hitler, killing and whipping the innocent. Brainwashing people. The whole propoganda deal.

Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.

-Matthew 10:34-36

Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.

-Matthew 10:34-36

Any of you fucking pricks sin, and I'll execute every motherfucking last one of ya!

-Jesus Christ at an IHOP in L.A.-

Mathew 10 34:39

34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[e]

37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Okay, looks like I came in a bit late on this thread, but I have a few things to respond to and a few things to point out on the issue of if Jesus is a terrorist. Assuming the gospel Jesus really existed, and that the gospels are accurate in portraying him, they say this:

Luke 19:27 "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."

Matt 10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household."

Luke 21:51 ""Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three..."

It seems to me that Jesus advocated violence. Now, one doesn't have to actually commit violence to be a terrorist, one simply has to advocate it. Jesus advocated violence; bringing his enemies to him to be killed. He also stated that he did not come to bring peace, but rather violence.

If anyone was a terrorist in the bible it was Peter, he went around hacking at Romans with his sword, carried a bag of severed ears around with him.

Great post, and this brings up my next point. The type of people Jesus hung out is evidence that Jesus was outside the law and could be considered a terrorist. Peter was violent, and they carried weapons, for example. Contrary to what some may believe, carrying weapons was not common among Jews. In fact, it may have even been forbidden under Halacha due to promoting violence. The only ones we can be sure that carried weapons consistently, like Peter was doing, were Zealots - rebel Jews who fought guerilla warfare against Rome.

And on that note, we come to Judas Iscariot. The very name Iscariot may have been a reference to Zealots, specifically the Sicarii, who were knife-wielding assassins. By analyzing the companions of Jesus we can come to a reasonable conclusion he was familiar with violence and had a Zealot band.

As far as I know, Jesus didn't use a scourge. He just flipped up tables, uncaged doves for sale, etc.

He didn't use a scourge.

Why don't you verify facts before posting them.

what LA ICE said was true...he just flipped tables and uncaged birds as well as telling the lads that they were out of line for defiling the temple.

Your guys' ideas if you actually read the bible would be "shot down" I suggest reading it since you apparently have no clue. Lol


Someone may have posted the verses that demonstrate this already, but I just wanted to emphasize it - LA Ice, R0cka, and White Hart Ln, you're all wrong. Jesus did in fact use a scourge to drive the moneylenders out, as we see in the gosepl of John:

John 2:15 "When he had made a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen, and poured out the changers’ money and overturned the tables.”

Only John mentions the scourge. The rest of the gospels exclude this. So, it would be fair enough for the casual Bible reader to believe that Jesus didn't use a scourge or miss the reference to the scourge in John. Of course, some Christian had to get arrogant (hint hint, White Hart Ln) in their attempted rebuttal. It does, in fact, say that Jesus drove them out with a scourge in the Bible.

Now, I'm sure someone reading this may already be formulating some sort of argument along the lines of "but it says whip, not scourge!" Well, the Greek word used here is phragellion. It literally means scourge. For those of you who said Jesus drove people out with a scourge, WTG, you're correct. :)

What people forget is that the Jewish faith around the time of Jesus had splintered into many factions, the pharisees being the most notable. Jesus was a Rabbi, and at that time Rabbis were considered the most learned in society.

As a result they had the right to put forward radical new ideas about the faith. It was a Rabbis duty to teach, and that's what Jesus done.

Jesus was not a terrorist, nor did he go against the rules of society, he went against the Pharisees and other denominations, nothing more, nothing less.

To begin, Judaism didn't splinter into many factions during the time of Jesus. There were two main factions and a third minor one; a vast majority, a tiny minority, and one even smaller group worthy of note. They had all existed for centuries before Jesus. The Pharisees were the majority, the Sadducees were the minority, and the Essenes were the only one that could be called a "splinter group." All had existed since the Hasmonean dynasty.

Furthermore, only Pharisees had rabbis. Jesus was not a rabbi unless he was a Pharisee. He also wasn't a rabbi unless he had a wife and children, as good rabbis were expected. The idea that Jesus did not accept the Oral Law of the Pharisees but was a rabbi falls under the fallacy of internal contradiction.

The gospels only make an account of Jesus going against Pharisees and Sadducees. There are no accounts of Jesus conflicting with any other Jewish group - such as specific political Zealots or Essenes. To complicate things further, Pharisees often had heated arguments with one another, and there were many conflicting schools of Pharasaic Judaism. When we see Jesus conflict with Pharisees, it does not mean that he was against all Pharisees in general.

In addition, many things attributed to Jesus were in fact stolen from Pharisees. Rabbi Hillel, a Pharisee who lived 100 years before Jesus, invented the Jewish version of the "golden rule" we see attributed to Jesus later in the gospels. Most of Jesus' parables were also invented by Hillel, in additon to the "two greatest commandments." When Jesus stated that it was unlawful to divorce expect in the case of adultery, this was the ruling of a Pharisee named Rabbi Shammai. As it turns out, many of Jesus' sayings were unoriginal and can be traced to famous Pharisees.

Shown in the text here, it clearly shows that it was in fact the Jews, not the Romans who wished to execute Jesus, at every move Pilate attempted to avoid the execution.

Well, if you assume that anonymous Christian writings like the gospels are true and have no inherent bias. Taken into their historical context, you have to keep in mind that the Gospels were written as polemics from an outside religion against Judaism, and thus extremely biased. They also had to conform to Roman standards, and appeal to an audience of Goyim. Thus, they make the Jews out to be the bad guys and Pilate to be the reluctant leader who complies.

In reality, it is against Halacha (Jewish Law) to advocate for, or to have a man crucified. There is not a single historical record of a Jew crucifying a man, or advocating a crucifixion. There are many records (such as we see with Josephus) of Pilate being a brutal and bloody ruler of Judea. He crucified some 500 Samaritans for following a Messiah, and that was only one instance. Pilate was even eventually removed from the Judean office due to this reputation and the trouble he stirred up with the native Jewish population.

So, you have two options. You can believe anti-Semitic polemics against Jews (the Gospels) without question, or you can give a historically accurate interpretation of Pilate's actions based on his long standing reputation.

Well, I doubt Jesus whipped anyone.

As for the temple thing, think about it. Those salesmen were de-holifying the place. It's almost the equivalent of drawing Mohhammad or turning a cross upside down(upside down crosses=something satanic). Jesus was breaking the law to not break what might be considered their version of a constitutoinal amendment. Of course, Jesushaters added "forgotten" parts to paint a picture of an ancient Hitler, killing and whipping the innocent. Brainwashing people. The whole propoganda deal.

So let me get this straight. Jesus haters added in the parts about Jesus whipping people with a scourge in the Gospel of John, but the rest of it is true? It must have been a vast conspiracy.

There is also no Jewish law against selling sacrifices in the Temple. The only ones that hated this were the Essenes - and they had their own sect-specific set of laws aside from the Torah. They believed that the Temple was being corrupted by practices such as this. There is nothing simliar to doing something permitted by law (selling sacrifices in the Temple) and doing something prohibited by law (like turning a cross upside down or drawing a picture of Muhammad).

The problem is that Christians rarely know anything about Judaism and Jewish law. Their view of Judaism in the first century is skewed by the Gospels. They tend to assume from reading Christian scriptures about Jesus' interaction with the Jews that Jews were in fact violating laws. In fact, they werent; Jews did not violating any law regarding the Temple during this period or de-holify any place.

There simply is no prohibition against selling sacrifices in the Temple. Rather, they were doing a permitted service so that Jews could sacrifice when they came from afar. They even continued to do this for decades after Jesus' death. So much for Jesus stopping them or being the "final sacrifice."

^Nice post. Dunno if I agree, but it's persuasive.

I don't think that we can be at all sure of fact in the Bible, or any other religious text. They are, for starters, too old. The Bible, for example, is nearly two thousand. The Torah, much older. The Koran is still well over a millenia old. In addition, the texts are written with inherent bias, in an attempt to record the history of a given religion and, presumably, convince a reader that they are holding in their hands the word of God. Even if the religion is not primarily a proselytizing one, it won't seek to make itself look bad on paper. All that being the case, I don't see the point in debating this sort of thing.

(It's about 1:30 AM for me. I'm not at my best-- forgive me for any errors or, barring that, plain stupidity.)

Jesus wasn't a terrorist, Jesus was a liberal hippy communist. If anyone was a terrorist in the bible it was Peter, he went around hacking at Romans with his sword, carried a bag of severed ears around with him.

That actually makes Jesus a Terrorist Mastermind in today's vocabulary.

Now the fact that if Christ walked the Earth today he’d be getting wire tapped by Homeland Security and then dragged away as a dissident camp without being charged is beside the point. He’d be protesting war and getting tossed into jail faster than you could say amen. Apparently having that dark Eastern Mediterranean look can get you in trouble these days, especially if you’re an outspoken activist. Besides he's clearly a Liberal...

From what little we know about Jesus, despite there being a Jewish resistance movement and despite them trying to use Jesus politically, he seemed to want to go the Ghandi route (although he wasn’t completely peaceful either). The Papacy would hunt down Jesus like a dog if he popped up today, especially now that the current pope bears the nickname “the Rottweiler” for his tendency to excommunicate people during theological debates.

:upyours:

So like most religious nut-jobs you don't have a valid argument with facts to back up your arguments?

Anyone who triggered the crusades, the Inquisition, the witch hunts and in whoms name the genocide of the Australian aboriginals, the peoples of the Americas, the Indians, Africans and Arabs was carried out is a terrorist in my eyes.

Why don't you make a thread asking if Mohamed was a terrorist?

they did, and if i remember right it included a numerous posts about how people where so insensitive and ignorant to the muslim faith.

lol, just be glad they didnt burn down the jolt servers :D

well He didn't murder or maim any innocent people, which is sort of a requirement... nor did he foment or abet the murder/maiming of anyone.