NationStates Jolt Archive

I have been thinking about this for some time, and it seems more and more realistic.

In the Middle East, oppressive governments are alienating their populations and oppressing most if not all opposition. The only parties and movements who remain steadfast and keep a good reputation (mainly one of not being corruptable) are Islamists like the Muslim Brotherhood.

Unfortunately, these Islamist parties are usually not what you would call liberal Muslims. Of course there is the perfectly viable chance that extreme Islam wouldn't be a problem to the rest of the world, if those adhering to it were not victims of such a persecution complex...but I think most of us would accept that liberal Islam in a country would ultimately better than fundamentalist Islam.

So there needs to be a place where liberal Islam can flourish, where liberal Muslim scholars can think, preach and shape minds.

This place may very well be Europe.

There are 25 million Muslims in Europe, I believe. That's a lot, especially considering that compared to those living in the rest of the world, these are positively rich, both in money and education.

But Europe has been failing its immigrants, and now even the US Administration is voicing its displeasure at that...they call it a "threat to American security" which is probably the strongest sort of language this US government can come up with in these times.

There are almost no Imams, Ayatollahs or other religious figures that have actually been educated and initiated in Europe. They are always from the Middle East, and as such will have a very different idea of life than those Muslims who grew up in Europe.

So, considering that, what do you think should be the way to solve these both issues, which are invariably interconnected?

Here's a list of links of interest:
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,410102,00.html
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,410098,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/europe/2005/muslims_in_europe/default.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4430244.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4385768.stm

War on terror =/= war on muslims.

War on terror =/= war on muslims.
I don't think I said such a thing.

But this thread of course runs under the assumption that we do want to do something about the number of Islamist and Extremist Muslim movements that exist around the world, which aren't good for anyone - not us, not them, and not those under their direct influence.

But note that I used quotation marks in the title.

I don't think I said such a thing.

But this thread of course runs under the assumption that we do want to do something about the number of Islamist and Extremist Muslim movements that exist around the world, which aren't good for anyone - not us, not them, and not those under their direct influence.

But note that I used quotation marks in the title.

Ah, quite so. Nevermind then. At least it's out of the way now, eh?

Well, for this to happen, firstly, Europe needs to get over its xenophobia. As you said, they've failed their immigrants.

I think the key is to find a way to integrate younger Muslims without alienating the older ones.

If young Muslims grow to appreciate and respect their new homelands, then it will be that much easier. At the same time, one can't try to phase out the ideals of their parents, since they (both parents and children) will percieve that as an attack on their culture and religion.

Easier said than done, I'm afraid. :(

Hmhm. This might be very interesting considering your topic, Neu Leonstein:

The EU just froze the financial aid to the Palestinians because the new Government refuses to accept Israel's right of existance. Came on the MittagsMagazin on ARD about an hour ago saying that they announced it minutes ago, so I don't know if the news networks have it yet.

I personally think that the War on Terror is the prelude to a much larger war. I'm not necessarily speaking of the Battle of Armagedon, but the Arabian countries and Israel are biting at their chains to fight each other. We must realize that there has been war between them for thousands of years, and there will likely be more disputes in the future. I'm sure that most Jews and Muslims would be willing to get along with each other, or at least keep out of each other's way, but there are always a few, like the Al-Qaida, who excersize their beliefs entirely too strongly. I'm sad to say it, but the only way I can see these conflicts stop is if one of the two groups are completely exterminated OR if their governments get a major hold on their people are start using some much needed authority to keep their people at bay.

Hmhm. This might be very interesting considering your topic, Neu Leonstein:

The EU just froze the financial aid to the Palestinians because the new Government refuses to accept Israel's right of existance. Came on the MittagsMagazin on ARD about an hour ago saying that they announced it minutes ago, so I don't know if the news networks have it yet.Hmm, that's not what I seem to be hearing. Aid to the PA seems ot have been stopped, but the decision isn't final and the Solana is trying to find alternative routes to provide aid for the Palestinian people.

http://euobserver.com/?aid=21322&rk=1

A] Most muslims don't live in Europe, and what 25 million may think isn't the issue.

B] At the heart of the real problem we have to solve is the fact that a religion somehow has emerged as a source of political power and authority.


Solution: defeat islam politically.

You don't do that by playing nice.

Hmm, that's not what I seem to be hearing. Aid to the PA seems ot have been stopped, but the decision isn't final and the Solana is trying to find alternative routes to provide aid for the Palestinian people.

http://euobserver.com/?aid=21322&rk=1Like I said, I just heard it on the Noon news program. Details were a bit sketchy. ;)

A] Most muslims don't live in EuropeMost Muslims don't live in the Middle East, either.

Most Muslims don't live in the Middle East, either.

*shrug*

However, it is very much their centre of gravity.

1) yeah the middle east has absolutely no places where “liberal Islam can flourish, where liberal Muslim scholars can think, preach and shape minds.” coughDubaicough (though there is bound to be a better example its the most well known)

2) the whole issue of extreme and/or violent Islam has allot to do with the situation in Saudi Arabia the oil may be making trillions but unemployment is very high and this is where you get young men with nothing to do these are the target audience of radical Muslims who brainwash them with hate

1) yeah the middle east has absolutely no places where “liberal Islam can flourish, where liberal Muslim scholars can think, preach and shape minds.” coughDubaicough (though there is bound to be a better example its the most well known)

2) the whole issue of extreme and/or violent Islam has allot to do with the situation in Saudi Arabia the oil may be making trillions but unemployment is very high and this is where you get young men with nothing to do these are the target audience of radical Muslims who brainwash them with hate

So you think that a sudden influence of liberalism in islam will magically solve the problem?

The Inquisition ( to give but one example ) didn't stop because of a sudden influence of liberal catholics - it stopped because political catholicism was defeated on the battlefield.

Nazism didn't stop because of a sudden influence of liberal jewhaiters - it stopped because the jewhaiters were defeated on the battlefield.

So you think that a sudden influence of liberalism in islam will magically solve the problem?

The Inquisition ( to give but one example ) didn't stop because of a sudden influence of liberal catholics - it stopped because political catholicism was defeated on the battlefield.

Nazism didn't stop because of a sudden influence of liberal jewhaiters - it stopped because the jewhaiters were defeated on the battlefield.Communism didn't get defeated on the Battlefield. One could also argue that Fascism wasn't defeated on the battlefield, if one looks at the situation Italy was in. Actually, I doubt the "defeating on the battlefield" did as much as the denazification later, and both are paled by the student movements of the sixties, though these would not have really been possible without the defeats. In the Nazi's case at least, the defeat was a prerequisite, not the cause for liberalization.

Communism didn't get defeated on the Battlefield. One could also argue that Fascism wasn't defeated on the battlefield, if one looks at the situation Italy was in. Actually, I doubt the "defeating on the battlefield" did as much as the denazification later, and both are paled by the student movements of the sixties, though these would not have really been possible without the defeats. In the Nazi's case at least, the defeat was a prerequisite, not the cause for liberalization.


*shrugs*
Too much Francis Fukuyama.

Who has since recanted: see the literary supplement of last week's The Times.

Anyway, in very practical terms: the operations of Auschwitz were stopped by the might of arms - not by some student revolution.

Do you think you can defeat political islam by student demonstrations?
That doesn't appear very practical to me.

*shrugs*
Too much Francis Fukuyama.

Who has since recanted: see the literary supplement of last week's The Times.

Anyway, in very practical terms: the operations of Auschwitz were stopped by the might of arms - not by some student revolution.

Do you think you can defeat political islam by student demonstrations?
That doesn't appear very practical to me.:rolleyes:
Maybe you should read my post again.

:rolleyes:
Maybe you should read my post again.

No. It is afloat with... points of light. ( hopeful and/or wishful thinking)

Not with a program along the lines of:

How to render enemy ( x, y or z ) helpless and submissive.

No. It is afloat with... points of light. ( hopeful and/or wishful thinking)

Not with a program along the lines of:

How to render enemy ( x, y or z ) helpless and submissive.*shrugs*
Your hypocrisy astounds me. You claim a military defeat will always render an enemy helpless and submissive and yet you call my post "wishful thinking"?
Whatever.

*shrugs*
Your hypocrisy astounds me. You claim a military defeat will always render an enemy helpless and submissive and yet you call my post "wishful thinking"?
Whatever.

Why hipocrisy?

I suppose a military defeat could also exterminate them - but why should I wish for it? What's the gain in it?

Granted we have the means to exterminate some 1 billion muslims. But what would be the point? I see none.

Why hipocrisy?

I suppose a military defeat could also exterminate them - but why should I wish for it? What's the gain in it?You didn't read my post. I suggest you do it again. I addressed the point that "students didn't liberate Auschwitz" before you made that statement. You ignored it and set up a pretty strawman to poke with sticks.

You didn't read my post. I suggest you do it again. I addressed the point that "students didn't liberate Auschwitz" before you made that statement. You ignored it and set up a pretty strawman to poke with sticks.

For the very simple and practical reason that I find your point frivolous.

The aim is not modification of beliefs ( of muslims, catholics, nazis, communists, whatevers ), the aim is simply to render the people who hold such beliefs unable to do a thing about it.

If I were to plan to defeat nazism, my aim would not be to make people stop believing in Hitler, my aim would be to make 'em stop thrusting other peeps into concentrationcamps. ( the HARD way, not by giving 'em a lecture )

Would you adress the problem posed by dirty dishes by lecturing at it, or would you aim to get the dirty dishes out of the way?

Get real, I think you need to face up to the fact that we're not going to be able to magically turn all of the muslims in the west into nice moderates. Islam is the problem, and the 25 million muslims in Europe is already too much. I'm not concerned if muslims live under brutal dictatorships abroad. That's their problem and they can deal with it. We need to just deport all muslim immigrants back to their home countries. I don't care if they're fleeing persecution and I don't care if they get executed back home.

We can't just neatly categorise muslims into moderate and radical. Even these 'moderate' muslims will hold most of the views of the radical ones, the only difference is that they keep quiet about it because they don't want to rock the boat when their position is still rather precarious as a minority. These are the most dangerous muslims, far more so than any radical who screams 'Behead those who mock islam!' on the streets. These 'moderate' muslims are more effective at slowly sinking their claws into our society. More and more of them are let in all the time, and those who are let in breed like rabbits. So if things carry on the way they are then it's only a matter of time before they become a majority of the population. Muslims will only pay lip service to liberalism when they're in a minority. As soon as they reach a majority, we'll be living under sharia.

Islam is the enemy, in all its forms.

^ Ullshitbay, Ullshitbay...

What's the last time e.g. an Ahmadiyya muslim killed anyone?

For the very simple and practical reason that I find your point frivolous.

The aim is not modification of beliefs ( of muslims, catholics, nazis, communists, whatevers ), the aim is simply to render the people who hold such beliefs unable to do a thing about it.

If I were to plan to defeat nazism, my aim would not be to make people stop believing in Hitler, my aim would be to make 'em stop thrusting other peeps into concentrationcamps.

Would you adress the problem posed by dirty dishes by lecturing at it, or would you aim to get the dirty dishes out of the way?
Communism didn't get defeated on the Battlefield. One could also argue that Fascism wasn't defeated on the battlefield, if one looks at the situation Italy was in. Actually, I doubt the "defeating on the battlefield" did as much as the denazification later, and both are paled by the student movements of the sixties, though these would not have really been possible without the defeats. In the Nazi's case at least, the defeat was a prerequisite, not the cause for liberalization.Don't be silly. Militarily defeating an enemy and rendering them powerless only works as long as you can keep them in check by force. That's how the communists did it in East Germany, where you had no student movements to deal with the Nazi past of the elder generation. Once that oppressive force was gone, the neo nazis resurfaced and have become a bigger problem in the East than in the West.
Defeating an enemy isn't enough. You need to do more, as the student movement did.

Don't be silly. Militarily defeating an enemy and rendering them powerless only works as long as you can keep them in check by force. That's how the communists did it in East Germany, where you had no student movements to deal with the Nazi past of the elder generation. Once that oppressive force was gone, the neo nazis resurfaced and have become a bigger problem in the East than in the West.
Defeating an enemy isn't enough. You need to do more, as the student movement did.


Considering the important position that Mecca holds in islamic life, the combo of a decisive defeat of islamic forces, coupled by the occupation of Mecca, with the proviso that access to it is contingent upon muslims being good little boys, I consider the 'doing more' as a quite elemental problem.

Meanwhile, I lose no sleep over nightmares of Nazism returning as a viable force one way or the other. Hitler has been dead for some 60 years, and he's fading from the good/bad-paradigma at the same speed as, say, Napoleon, Djengis Khan, or William the 2nd.

If I were to plan to defeat nazism, my aim would not be to make people stop believing in Hitler, my aim would be to make 'em stop thrusting other peeps into concentrationcamps. ( the HARD way, not by giving 'em a lecture )
Naziism was a social ideaology, Islam is a religious ideaology. You cannot defeate religious ideaologies "the hard way" - you just create maryrs and hardliners.

PS. I don't read who I'm quoting until afterwards, and now I see it is BogMarsh and not surprised at all.

Naziism was a social ideaology, Islam is a religious ideaology. You cannot defeate religious ideaologies "the hard way" - you just create maryrs and hardliners.

How many virulent Nichiren-Buddhists have you met lately?
Ditto for Thuggees...

The great thing about martyrs is that they're dead.

PS: now I feel honoured.

The great thing about martyrs is that they're dead.
The great thing about stubborn asses is.. nothing, they won't do anything and you can't eat them.

It isn't the martyrs that are the threat, it is the consequences of creating martyrs that are.

The great thing about stubborn asses is.. nothing, they won't do anything and you can't eat them.

It isn't the martyrs that are the threat, it is the consequences of creating martyrs that are.


... which don't matter that much - provided you leave their supporting ideologies as *drumroll please!* impotent..

... which don't matter that much - provided you leave their supporting ideologies as *drumroll please!* impotent..
I'm not even going to try to argue, you know, obvious logical conclusions with you. It is hopeless.

I'm not even going to try to argue, you know, obvious logical conclusions with you. It is hopeless.


Suppose you were worried about the existence of radical muslims post-op.
(your worry, not mine)

Suppose you were then to notice that 2 sure-fire signs of a radical muslim were
A] An unkempt beard.
B] lots of shouting in arabic.
Furthermore, they insist on making Hajj - in a place we just occupied.

I wonder HOW that problem is to be solved...

Meanwhile, I lose no sleep over nightmares of Nazism returning as a viable force one way or the other. Hitler has been dead for some 60 years, and he's fading from the good/bad-paradigma at the same speed as, say, Napoleon, Djengis Khan, or William the 2nd.I do. Nazism is rather independent of Hitler. Closing your eyes to the potential danger of Nazis in suits making it into the government won't make the danger go away, it will make it greater.

I do. Nazism is rather independent of Hitler. Closing your eyes to the potential danger of Nazis in suits making it into the government won't make the danger go away, it will make it greater.

If that were to happen ( which strikes me as a rather remote chance ) there are ways of getting 'em out.
Meanwhile, it would appear we have more important Hannibal's ante the bloomin' portas...

If that were to happen ( which strikes me as a rather remote chance ) there are ways of getting 'em out.
Meanwhile, it would appear we have more important Hannibal's ante the bloomin' portas...Chance is remote, but it is there. It requires constant vigilance. Right-wing populism is the biggest potential step-ladder for a right-wing, fascist, or even Nazi police state. Ousting one of those from the inside has gotten a lot harder with the advent of surveillance technologies. It's highly unlikely that it would really be possible to get rid of such a government if it managed to take root, which is why it's so important to prevent them from even establishing themselves in the standard political process.

Chance is remote, but it is there. It requires constant vigilance. Right-wing populism is the biggest potential step-ladder for a right-wing, fascist, or even Nazi police state. Ousting one of those from the inside has gotten a lot harder with the advent of surveillance technologies. It's highly unlikely that it would really be possible to get rid of such a government if it managed to take root, which is why it's so important to prevent them from even establishing themselves in the standard political process.

Well, being the hardboiled egg that I am, it won't surprise you to hear that imho, the dis-establishment of a neo-nazi regime were best taken care off with 9mm heartattacks.

Apart from that, one's neighbours might take a very very dim view of a 4th Reich - and solve the problem.

On a personal level: if a German analogue of Jorg Haider were to become Bundeskanzler of Germany, and you were afraid of getting your hands dirty - by all means let me know.

On a personal level: if a German analogue of Jorg Haider were to become Bundeskanzler of Germany, and you were afraid of getting your hands dirty - by all means let me know.Goodness, it's incredibly shameful to let them get that far. Chancellor? Heck, neo-nazis in parliament would be bad enough, let alone having them be part of the government. Chancellor would be far worse.

Goodness, it's incredibly shameful to let them get that far. Chancellor? Heck, neo-nazis in parliament would be bad enough, let alone having them be part of the government. Chancellor would be far worse.

I suppose we're engaging in hijacking - but I'm quite simply being more.. relaxed.. about the problem.

I'm no German - and I'm sure you won't blame me for that.

I don't get upset if a few german analogues of the extreme wing of UKIP were to get into your Bundestag. It's.. an opposition. Democratically allowed. It may be shameful, but I think it must be allowed. What cannot be allowed is folks actually passing nazi-laws - in contravention of ( amongst other things ) the EuroDecHumRights.

You think action should be taken when a German Jorg were to be elected into the Bundestag.

I think action should be taken when he were to be appointed Kanzler.

OK, so we have a difference there, but shall we agree that they are going to pass Nurnberg-style laws over our dead bodies?

I suppose we're engaging in hijacking - but I'm quite simply being more.. relaxed.. about the problem.

I'm no German - and I'm sure you won't blame me for that.Don't worry about it. Nobody's perfect :p

I don't get upset if a few german analogues of the extreme wing of UKIP were to get into your Bundestag. It's.. an opposition. Democratically allowed. It may be shameful, but I think it must be allowed. What cannot be allowed is folks actually passing nazi-laws - in contravention of ( amongst other things ) the EuroDecHumRights.I agree with the "allowed" bit. It would be upsetting to me for it to happen though. Of course they can't just be kept out because they have less humane policies. Currently, there are two German state parliaments that have neo-nazi factions represented, and one with a single delegate. That is shameful and upsetting that this happened. Nazis becoming socially accepted enough to breach the 5% mark of the Bundestag would most certainly be a sign of failure and needs to be prevented through non-violent means, mainly education and awareness.

You think action should be taken when a German Jorg were to be elected.

I think action should be taken if he were appointed Kanzler.

OK, so we have a difference there, but shall we agree that they are going to pass Nurnberg-style laws over our dead bodies?Not quite. I beleive action needs to be taken before they even get elected, but it is different from the action you advocate. I'm not in favor of letting it get to the point that armed resistance would be the only option left.;)

OK. I know what you're getting at. I have no problem advocating highly armed solutions - because I tend to adress problems if and when they become a clear and present danger ( with a high degree of dislike for pre-emptive solutions ).

The alternative is tackling problems earlier with 'lighter' means - but my personal objection to that is that it leads to an extreme amount of busybodying and micromanagement, along with a myopic view.

As a total aside - or perhaps an apropos - I'm forever entertained by the huge number of folks who seem to think we're at war with all of Islam, when the fact of the matter is that it's just Ali, Osman and Nassr being naughty boys, albeit highly armed ones.