NationStates Jolt Archive

A super-majority of Americans want to know who enters the US, and Congress has no problem spending all tax revenue (and then some) like the world is ending tomorrow. Could someone please explain the arguments against building a big wall across the whole US/Mexico border? Constituent approval and cost don't appear to be valid factors, the "Ultra Libertarians" in favor of completely abolishing borders don't have enough influence to put the kibosh on it, so what is?
If they ran small electrical wires through the wall, the border patrol could be notified immediately if there were a breech in any section of the wall. With that knowledge, a helecopter (or van, depending on how remote the location)could easily be there in a minute or two. Once people learned that they couldn't get through, they would stop trying as frequently, and the wall would become a rather low maintenance fixture.

:confused: Educate me...

A wall would take materials as well as labor. I suggest a moat.

A wall would take materials as well as labor. I suggest a moat.

*looks at the Rio Grande*

*looks at the Rio Grande*

You didn't FILL that moat, though. You really should just cut a sea-level ditch from the Pacific to the Gulf of Mexico, and turn it into some kind of shark canal.

You didn't FILL that moat, though. You really should just cut a sea-level ditch from the Pacific to the Gulf of Mexico, and turn it into some kind of shark canal.

There's already worse stuff in that river than sharks, man. :p

They could do that thing like with Nellis AFB. Just motion detectors and roving patrols.

There's a 100% sucess rate at keeping people out of groom lake, and no wall is required, so I imagine that's the way to go.

Possibly because the irony of the country that demanded the Berlin Wall torn down and free access between East and West Germany building a much longer wall was too much on them.

Possibly because the irony of the country that demanded the Berlin Wall torn down and free access between East and West Germany building a much longer wall was too much on them.

Yah; but people are only going to say that that was different, because the berlin wall was to keep people in: this is to keep people out - or something.

I don't imagine that a wall will really accomplish anything. Historically, walls have not had much sucess in that respect.

Possibly because the irony of the country that demanded the Berlin Wall torn down and free access between East and West Germany building a much longer wall was too much on them.

ummm...big difference i think.

east/west germany was 1 country till stalin/churchill and our boy slivered it up.
the russians built a wall to keep people in...we want to keep people out!
well illegal immigrants and terrorists to be more precise.

we still have doors to come thru,but gasp...you gotta do it according to the law!

what your implying(if i am not completely sotted) is not analogous.

a correct anology would be rich suburbanites building a wall between the inner city ghettos and there suburban paradises.

not between 2 SEPERATE COUNTRIES!

germany was 1 country...mexico is not america.

I don't imagine that a wall will really accomplish anything. Historically, walls have not had much sucess in that respect.

And the Mongols taught all of us that.

I don't imagine that a wall will really accomplish anything. Historically, walls have not had much sucess in that respect.

Not since the advent of the tunnel, anyway.

*goes off to buy stocks in the Mexican ladder-building industry*

*goes off to buy stocks in the Mexican ladder-building industry*

Don't be silly. Mexicans don't know how to build ladders.

And the Mongols taught all of us that.

Yeah. It didn't work to well for the Romans either.

It wouldn't surprise me, however, if the asshats in government built the damn thing anyway, then subcontracted manning it to the Mexican government.

A super-majority of Americans want to know who enters the US, and Congress has no problem spending all tax revenue (and then some) like the world is ending tomorrow. Could someone please explain the arguments against building a big wall across the whole US/Mexico border? Constituent approval and cost don't appear to be valid factors, the "Ultra Libertarians" in favor of completely abolishing borders don't have enough influence to put the kibosh on it, so what is?
If they ran small electrical wires through the wall, the border patrol could be notified immediately if there were a breech in any section of the wall. With that knowledge, a helecopter (or van, depending on how remote the location)could easily be there in a minute or two. Once people learned that they couldn't get through, they would stop trying as frequently, and the wall would become a rather low maintenance fixture.

:confused: Educate me...
The people with the money--big corporations and business owners who employ a lot of those folks coming across that border for pittance wages--don't want a wall, and since they make massive donations to politicians, far more massive than the supermajority you claim--there will be no wall.

Don't be silly. Mexicans don't know how to build ladders.

no, they're too busy eating tacos to build ladders. Who needs ladders when you have tacos?

Big Fat Wall

Great idea.

America's two biggest problems are obesity and illegal immigration. By constructing a fat wall made from the lipo-sucked fat from our collective lard-asses we could build a smelly impenetrable barrier of goo across the border.

no, they're too busy eating tacos to build ladders. Who needs ladders when you have tacos?

Only people with very high shelves! And they only have those because they ran out of tacos.

ummm...big difference i think.

east/west germany was 1 country till stalin/churchill and our boy slivered it up.
the russians built a wall to keep people in...we want to keep people out!
well illegal immigrants and terrorists to be more precise.

we still have doors to come thru,but gasp...you gotta do it according to the law!

what your implying(if i am not completely sotted) is not analogous.

a correct anology would be rich suburbanites building a wall between the inner city ghettos and there suburban paradises.

not between 2 SEPERATE COUNTRIES!

germany was 1 country...mexico is not america.

(NOTES my [unfortuneatly] fellow americans logic, build a wall between the US and Mexico to prevent terrorists from repeating 9/11 like they did before when they crossed over the border [after conveniently forgetting it was through Canada])

Only people with very high shelves! And they only have those because they ran out of tacos.

And they also need places to put those extra tacos! We all know how crowded Mexico is. Of course they have high shelves to put tacos on, and then everybody eats the tacos.

The people with the money--big corporations and business owners who employ a lot of those folks coming across that border for pittance wages--don't want a wall, and since they make massive donations to politicians, far more massive than the supermajority you claim--there will be no wall.

While I doubt that there will ever be an 800 mile wall actually constructed, I'm not so certain that there won't be a sea change in the resolve of politicians to address the 'illegal immigration problem'.

It's already an issue that cuts across political orientation - and with the upcoming recession that looks just about inevitable - I can only imagine that it will become even more central to US politics.

I don't really see mexican labor - and let's be clear, this is really an anti mexican issue, not illegal immigration per se - being that much of a big deal for large corporations either. They can already outsource easily enough, and in doing so they not only get cheap labor, they get around environmental laws and tax breaks as well. So in terms of the huge money backers, I imagine it's not a make or break issue. Really, it's the small companies that suffer, and they have bugger all say in anything anyway.

So yeah, I can see washington actually doing something about it. It's a self destructive attitude if you ask me however.

Isn't this a Republican idea? The amount of money that wall would cost...

Besides who wants to look like Israel/Palestine. Build a wall to keep the "problems" out and it solves all your issues! :rolleyes:

Isn't this a Republican idea? The amount of money that wall would cost...


Don't speak too soon, they'd probably get the materials by smashing down low-rent housing.

Don't speak too soon, they'd probably get the materials by smashing down low-rent housing.

But... the poor would need money! Wouldn't they get it by breaking into the rich Republicans houses?!?

But... the poor would need money! Wouldn't they get it by breaking into the rich Republicans houses?!?

Nope. We're closing off Mexico, remember? You think just because they didn't live there before that they won't mysteriously wake up in a ditch full of bananas?

Nope. We're closing off Mexico, remember? You think just because they didn't live there before that they won't mysteriously wake up in a ditch full of bananas?

Who would do our crap jobs if the illegals are sent back home and sealed behind a wall? Would us regular citizens be forced to work these jobs? These Republicans need to think this through! :eek: :p

Who would do our crap jobs if the illegals are sent back home and sealed behind a wall? Would us regular citizens be forced to work these jobs? These Republicans need to think this through! :eek: :p

Robots. The new age is upon us.

Robots. The new age is upon us.

Mexicans work for less than robots.

Mexicans work for less than robots.

But you don't have to gas up the lawnmower when the lawnmower pushes itself.

But you don't have to gas up the lawnmower when the lawnmower pushes itself.

Yes, but mexicans are so cheap you can just get one to put the gas in for you.

It's win win.

While I doubt that there will ever be an 800 mile wall actually constructed, I'm not so certain that there won't be a sea change in the resolve of politicians to address the 'illegal immigration problem'.

It's already an issue that cuts across political orientation - and with the upcoming recession that looks just about inevitable - I can only imagine that it will become even more central to US politics.

I don't really see mexican labor - and let's be clear, this is really an anti mexican issue, not illegal immigration per se - being that much of a big deal for large corporations either. They can already outsource easily enough, and in doing so they not only get cheap labor, they get around environmental laws and tax breaks as well. So in terms of the huge money backers, I imagine it's not a make or break issue. Really, it's the small companies that suffer, and they have bugger all say in anything anyway.

So yeah, I can see washington actually doing something about it. It's a self destructive attitude if you ask me however.
The Republican party finds itself in a quandary here. Ever since they adopted the Southern Strategy (if it ain't white, it ain't right) with Nixon, they've depended on it for their margins of victory in a number of states. But the fastest growing minority group in the US is the Latino population, and not wholly due to immigration, either. In fact, it's largely due to birth rates from legal immigrants. If they haven't surpassed african-americans already, they will in the next ten years.

Now the Republicans have a problem--they can't afford to alienate their base, but they can't afford to alienate a voting bloc that is, for the moment, still up for grabs. After all, the Latino populations in many states are still a bit torn--they're more conservative socially, but liberal economically. Will they vote their church or their pocketbook?

Well, if you build a huge wall along the Mexican border, one thing's for certain--they won't support whoever's responsible for it, and they'll reward whoever fights it. The Republican party is taking a chance at pissing off a growing section of the electorate right now, and that's not smart. Which is why I have to think that's the reason Sensenbrenner wants to make being an illegal a felony. It's an easy way to strip potential future voting rights and disenfranchise a growing population segment. But that would only cushion the blow.

Used to be the Republican party would sit back, look at the demographic projections and say "we can't do this. It'll kill us in the long run." And some of them still are. I'll give Jeb Bush this much--he knows it's a bad idea. He's not speaking loudly about it, because it would hurt him with the base if he's running in 2008, but he knows, and he's making some quiet assurances to Latino Republicans right now.

Don't be silly. Mexicans don't know how to build ladders.

You've never tried to climb over razor wire, have you?

Also,
The 9/11 dudes were here legally. This issue, to me, is about raising wages for blue collar workers.

Americans won't do crappy jobs because we can pay illegals $3 per hour to do them. It isn't because they're Mexicans that people dislike it. We dis like all outsourcing, even if it is "domestic outsourcing" because it hurts the working class. Also, if the government is stealing my money and calling it "taxes," they should be equal oppurtunity thieves.
My favorite was how John Kerry went on and on about illegals who pay their taxes should becopme citizens. How can someone with no SSN pay taxes?
"Dear Senor Presidente,
I have no SSN so here is my name and address. Here are the monies that should have been withheld from my paychecks this year.
-Paco

*Paco get's deported*

Or if he's using a stolen SSN and taxes are witheld by his boss, it's not like he's CHOOSING to pay taxes...

(NOTES my [unfortuneatly] fellow americans logic, build a wall between the US and Mexico to prevent terrorists from repeating 9/11 like they did before when they crossed over the border [after conveniently forgetting it was through Canada])

i am not a twit..i know the saudi terrs came thru canada..mostly...but they had support here as welll...but i digress.

canada dropped the ball.and we did as well...as they were on the watchlist...be that as it may...fact is..if we have now effectively..lol...closed that loophole..why not walk across the border with a basic skill in languge(spanish) and say no habla englis'

your telling me a middle eastern terr with rudimentary spanish language skills cant pass for paco the drywall guy?

and get the catch and release and try again the next day.

i know it is not 1 tenth of 1 tenth of 1 percent that will.

but close the airports and enforce the watchlist and passport stuff...you honestly think they wont try crossing a border were thousands a day do?

and when caught...just come back the next day.

i see how you are steering this too a rascist and xenophopic argument..but i aint biting...the fact is..they come here ILLEGALLY whether they are terrorists or not..and mixed in with the honest guys looking for work are ms-13 gangbangers and drug dealers galore...dont believe me...put your money where your mouth is...and go to a border town and see how long you survive.

oh..sorry...you aint dealing with the gangs..
i just brought up the terr thing as just another reason for border control.

how would you like a bunch(assuming your canadien)of detroit gang boys moving into your town and shooting the place up..whats your solution?

give them amnesty and welfare?

if so..we got a shit load of ghettos we need emptying,kinda like cuba did,and mexico is doing.

and before you paint the mexicans as martyrs..look into there immigration policy ..and the way treat others from central america...hypocritical is to light of a word.

How can someone with no SSN pay taxes?

with an income taxpayer identification number

am not a twit..i know the saudi terrs came thru canada..mostly...but they had support here as welll...but i digress.

WOW, you get it...


canada dropped the ball.and we did as well...as they were on the watchlist...be that as it may...fact is..if we have now effectively..lol...closed that loophole..why not walk across the border with a basic skill in languge(spanish) and say no habla englis'

A few were on the watchlist, not all of them were however.... And that "loophole" is no where near "effectively" closed.


your telling me a middle eastern terr with rudimentary spanish language skills cant pass for paco the drywall guy?

and get the catch and release and try again the next day.

i know it is not 1 tenth of 1 tenth of 1 percent that will.

but close the airports and enforce the watchlist and passport stuff...you honestly think they wont try crossing a border were thousands a day do?

and when caught...just come back the next day.

Strawman... No I did not say that, nor posit that... YOU just did.

And the Canadian border is not all that secure... None of the "high-tech" gizmos developed by US Customs, and initiated by Homeland Security apply to those bearing Canadian passports (which would include falsified ones).


i see how you are steering this too a rascist and xenophopic argument..but i aint biting...the fact is..they come here ILLEGALLY whether they are terrorists or not..and mixed in with the honest guys looking for work are ms-13 gangbangers and drug dealers galore...dont believe me...put your money where your mouth is...and go to a border town and see how long you survive.

And this needs a multi-trillion dollar "wall" to prevent? NOT WITH MY MONEY!


oh..sorry...you aint dealing with the gangs..
i just brought up the terr thing as just another reason for border control.

No, I'm not dealing with gangs, not in this absured manner...


how would you like a bunch(assuming your canadien)of detroit gang boys moving into your town and shooting the place up..whats your solution?

I'm American... Hense the refference in the post you were responding to [which you have seemingly forgot along with english....]

My solution is to arrest them for the crime (murder etc.) and lock them up ,and/or/instead deport them.


give them amnesty and welfare?

No... merely deport them...


if so..we got a shit load of ghettos we need emptying,kinda like cuba did,and mexico is doing.

Horrible comparison.... I might as well move to Cuba if I find that logical or proper.


and before you paint the mexicans as martyrs..look into there immigration policy ..and the way treat others from central america...hypocritical is to light of a word.

How the Mexican government treats emmigrants has absolutely no bearing what-so-ever on how the US should treat those comming from that country.

And, if you are going to respond to me, next time use PROPER english. Which means:
1. Capitalize proper nouns and all other applicable letters
2. Stop using run on sentences
3. Learn what a contraction is
4. too/to
5. Paragraph formation.

with an income taxpayer identification number

It's an ITIN (Individual Taxpayer Identification Number)...

And, to handle the original...



How can someone with no SSN pay taxes?

ITIN:
An Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) is a tax processing number issued by the Internal Revenue Service. It is a nine-digit number that always begins with the number 9 and has a 7 or 8 in the fourth digit, example 9XX-7X-XXXX.
IRS issues ITINs to individuals who are required to have a U.S. taxpayer identification number but who do not have, and are not eligible to obtain a Social Security Number (SSN) from the Social Security Administration (SSA).
ITINs are issued regardless of immigration status because both resident and nonresident aliens may have U.S. tax return and payment responsibilities under the Internal Revenue Code.
Individuals must have a filing requirement and file a valid federal income tax return to receive an ITIN, unless they meet an exception.

The numbers are auto-generated by the IRS for returns when withholding is payed by an employer with no associating SSN.

You've never tried to climb over razor wire, have you?These guys have. (http://www.all4all.org/images/2005/10/2148.jpg)
This is one of the refugees that climbed the fences surrounding the Spanish enclaves of Melilla and Ceuta.

These guys have. (http://www.all4all.org/images/2005/10/2148.jpg)
This is one of the refugees that climbed the fences surrounding the Spanish enclaves of Melilla and Ceuta.

This is why we invented wire cutters.

ummm...big difference i think.

east/west germany was 1 country till stalin/churchill and our boy slivered it up.

germany was 1 country...mexico is not america.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but parts of the USA used to be in Mexico until your boys 'silvered it up'. The analogy holds, the perspective is just longer.

Big wall ... yeah right.

Who would build it? White people?

Pfft. Lazy ass slackers.