NationStates Jolt Archive

Why should or why shouldn't drugs and prostitution and other "victimless" crimes be decriminalized or legalized? How would societies and nations benefit from continuing to prohibit or loosening the controls of these activities? Would they reduce the indulgence of these activities? Speak your opinion and your reasons here.

They should both be mandatory.

Yes. Not only will the product they provide improve in quality, the tax-man will get his due and a souce of easy money for criminals will be removed. Everybody wins.

I don't engage in either of them, but they should both be legal. Personally, I wish no one smoked and I'd be happy to never have another drink, but making them illegal simply makes criminals of everyone who chooses to engage. This was proven in the 20's but we seem to have forgotten that lesson. Why would I want to make something illegal that ONLY affects someone if they choose to engage?

Yes they should. It would be a much better way to raise money for schools and churches than the traditional bake sales.

They should be legal.

*Ahem.

Duh.

Prostitution ought not to be legalized. It posses too great a threat to the family. It encourages sex addiction, unfaithfulness, STD (no matter how many precautions one takes, there is always the risk), selfishness in your sexual life (I want it now!) etc. All these in turn encourage divorce and domestic abuse. Everyone agrees those are horibble. Divorce may be necessary at times, but it's still horrible.

I haven't made up my mind about drugs yet.

Prostitution is legal in my country and I agree with it.
And soft-drugs are decriminalized, but I think both soft and harddrugs should be legal.

Prostitution ought not to be legalized. It posses too great a threat to the family. It encourages sex addiction, unfaithfulness, STD (no matter how many precautions one takes, there is always the risk), selfishness in your sexual life (I want it now!) etc. All these in turn encourage divorce and domestic abuse. Everyone agrees those are horibble. Divorce may be necessary at times, but it's still horrible.

I haven't made up my mind about drugs yet.
You know, marriage is the biggest cause of divorce and spousal abuse. Maybe we should legalize prostitution and ban marriage.

You know, marriage is the biggest cause of divorce and spousal abuse. Maybe we should legalize prostitution and ban marriage.

Goddamn hippy liberal! Git away from our sacred marriage and back to yer plant-growing communes and yer wild ideals!

*Brandishes shotgun*

Prostitution ought not to be legalized. It posses too great a threat to the family. It encourages sex addiction, unfaithfulness, STD (no matter how many precautions one takes, there is always the risk), selfishness in your sexual life (I want it now!) etc. All these in turn encourage divorce and domestic abuse. Everyone agrees those are horibble. Divorce may be necessary at times, but it's still horrible.

I haven't made up my mind about drugs yet.

I fail to see how it would pose as a 'threat' to the family legalised than it would being illegal. The sex addiction is the same - won't change just because it's legal. STD is a fair point, but legalisation might promote safe sex. Selfishness...I'll just laugh at that point, really.

First off – these are two separate issues.

Drugs – for the most part, the problems from drugs (organized crime, street violence, etc) stem from their illegality. The war on drugs is a joke. Decriminalizing drugs would do many wonderful things for society.

1) organized crime looses a huge chunk of its revenue.
2) Prison systems are drastically reduced due to the lack of drug-related crime
3) Tax revenue
4) Improved safety of neighborhoods due to the much reduced criminal organizations and corresponding plunge in murder and other crimes,
5) the freeing up of police resources that can be directed elsewhere.

Prostitution – where is the harm? The only possible reason for making prostitution illegal is a religious (church morality) one. A free and open sex trade has no drawbacks as far as I am concerned. It should be treated just like any other business. No difference than getting a maid service.

BTW – I laughed when I heard that prostitutes have actually started a union in New Zealand.

You know, marriage is the biggest cause of divorce and spousal abuse. Maybe we should legalize prostitution and ban marriage.

Simply because people desecrate it isn't reason to abolish it.

And there would be no divorce or spousal abuse without marriage because they require you to be married to begin with!

Ohh... You were joking...at least I hope you were

This kind of question becomes complexified because they raise the health-care burden.

Drugs: I say, if the drug isn't going to kill you in reasonable doses, and won't cause you to behave in a manner dangerous to others, legalize them for private home use.

Prostitution: The problem with prostitution as I see it (Besides also raising the health-care burden) is that a lot of insecure women are manipulated by pimps into becoming, essentially, slaves. Or at least completely dependent. So, I think independent prostitution ought to be legal, but 'pimpery' should not.

And, I think people who use drugs or prostitution should be legally required to disclose it so they have to pay more for health care and my health care premiums don't go up when they get lung cancer and STDs.

as i have said for years now, i bleive prostitution should be ran by the government, all whores should be government employees (as of now only half the whores are government employees) it would start off like at the DMV where you would have to take a ticket and wait in line for a while, then if you apply when your 13 you would be next in line at 18

I fail to see how it would pose as a 'threat' to the family legalised than it would being illegal. The sex addiction is the same - won't change just because it's legal. STD is a fair point, but legalisation might promote safe sex. Selfishness...I'll just laugh at that point, really.

I'm not saying it would pose a greater threay legally. I'm saying that by leagalizing it, you're supporting it, or at least supporting the choice of people who do go to prostitutes.

And selfishness is a problem (I know it sounds stupid). It doesn't matter what else is going on, I want sex now and I will have it! This creates a lot of stress in families, even those that are okay with prostitution and would increase the chance of divorce.

I'm not saying it would pose a greater threay legally. I'm saying that by leagalizing it, you're supporting it, or at least supporting the choice of people who do go to prostitutes.

And selfishness is a problem (I know it sounds stupid). It doesn't matter what else is going on, I want sex now and I will have it! This creates a lot of stress in families, even those that are okay with prostitution and would increase the chance of divorce.

I fail to see anything wrong with legaising prostitution. I fully support it, and I'll be damned if I'm immoral or such.

The selfishness factor I still find pointless. There would be no difference between illegal now, and a theoretical future in which it were legal. Men and women still go to prostitutes and create stress now. I fail to see how legalising it would change this.

I'm not saying it would pose a greater threay legally. I'm saying that by leagalizing it, you're supporting it, or at least supporting the choice of people who do go to prostitutes.

And selfishness is a problem (I know it sounds stupid). It doesn't matter what else is going on, I want sex now and I will have it! This creates a lot of stress in families, even those that are okay with prostitution and would increase the chance of divorce.

Or you're just simply stating that you aren't willing to put people in jail for doing something simply because you disagree with it. I disagree with smoking. I think it's disgusting. Am I supporting the practice because I think it should be legal? No. I disagree with being a Nazi, with being a fundamentalist, with being a Republican, with facial piercing, with synchonized swimming. Should I ban all of these practices or only the ones that are sins? There is such a thing as disagreeing with an action while being unwilling to violate people's personal rights.

as i have said for years now, i bleive prostitution should be ran by the government, all whores should be government employees (as of now only half the whores are government employees) it would start off like at the DMV where you would have to take a ticket and wait in line for a while, then if you apply when your 13 you would be next in line at 18

I really want to make a libertarian joke about this, but I can't think of a good one.

Something like..

Typical left wing socialist thinking. Government run prostitution? Everybody knows the government isn't nearly as efficient as the private sector! If the private sector were in charge of prostitution, better orgasms would be achived for more competitive prices!

If we allow the big fat democrat socialist government to run prostitution, there will be no prostitution! We'd be paying way too much for women who might not even be sexually experienced, or willing to give oral!

If the private sector were running prostitution, the invisible hand of the market would ensure that the most successful prostitutes are the sexually talented, open minded ones with the fewest STDs. And those whores would be available for a much more reasonable price than prostitution run by a democrat liberal socialist pork barrel government monopoly!

I'm not saying it would pose a greater threay legally. I'm saying that by leagalizing it, you're supporting it, or at least supporting the choice of people who do go to prostitutes.

And selfishness is a problem (I know it sounds stupid). It doesn't matter what else is going on, I want sex now and I will have it! This creates a lot of stress in families, even those that are okay with prostitution and would increase the chance of divorce.
What weak links people have with their loved ones if this were true.

I really want to make a libertarian joke about this, but I can't think of a good one.

Something like..

Typical left wing socialist thinking. Government run prostitution? Everybody knows the government isn't nearly as efficient as the private sector! If the private sector were in charge of prostitution, better orgasms would be achived for more competitive prices!

If we allow the big fat democrat socialist government to run prostitution, there will be no prostitution! We'd be paying way too much for women who might not even be sexually experienced, or willing to give oral!

If the private sector were running prostitution, the invisible hand of the market would ensure that the most successful prostitutes are the sexually talented, open minded ones with the fewest STDs. And those whores would be available for a much more reasonable price than prostitution run by a democrat liberal socialist pork barrel government monopoly!

This argument is particularly amusing on a site created as a result of the book, Jennifer Government.

What weak links people have with their loved ones if this were true.

It's a sin, gosh darn it. Except we can't make it illegal for that reason so we have to make stuff up about how it's a threat to the family, the same way we do about loving and support same-sex couples, allowing parentless children to be adopted by ANYONE fit enough to care for them and freedom of religion. That family sure is fragile, isn't it?

The growing wage gap, the increased need for both parents to work more than full time, the constant erosion of personal rights, the declining education system, none that has anything to do with it. It's all because the sinners are trying to *gasp* choose their own paths rather than have people tell them what path they MUST tread.

i love that statement when referring to drugs and prostitution as
"victimless" crimes... did you know that there is no such thing as a victimless crime?? victim means there is noone to hurt.. now.. you steal from a store.. you hurt the owner and the customers whom have to pay for the products which are now priced higher because of the financial loss the owner just faced. drugs? how about people who have been hit by cars because the driver was under the influence (btw i'm not just talking pot. i'm referring to all of it) or how about the woman who is beaten for her money because some person needs their next fix? or how about the pimp who uses drug to controll the women he is selling on the street to keep them complacemnt and pilable for the customers.. now onto prostitution.. about 98% of all prostitutes and porn stars were sexually molested / abused when they were younger. 85% of all prostitutes and 68% of all porn stars are on drugs so that they can mentally cope with what they are doing for money. 95% of all prostitutes have been victims of a beating or (yes this can happen ) rape.

i was reminded by a MALE co-worker who is sitting behind me.. to mention these lovely facts.
how about the babies that are born addicted to various drugs due to the mother being a drug addict. the suffering that the children go thru when their "parent" spends all thier money on drugs and nothing on food, clothing, or many other household necessities. "theres plenty of other things to go on about but no need for overkill"

so think again before you say victimless crime.

onto prostitution.. about 98% of all prostitutes and porn stars were sexually molested / abused when they were younger. 85% of all prostitutes and 68% of all porn stars are on drugs so that they can mentally cope with what they are doing for money. 95% of all prostitutes have been victims of a beating or (yes this can happen ) rape.

Where did you get those numbers from?

i love that statement when referring to drugs and prostitution as
"victimless" crimes...

That's why I put it ("victimless") in quotation marks. I'm not endorsing it, just using a general term that is in particular popularity. If there is a preferable term for the specific area that I'm speaking of, you are welcome to tell it to me.

It's a sin, gosh darn it. Except we can't make it illegal for that reason so we have to make stuff up about how it's a threat to the family, the same way we do about loving and support same-sex couples, allowing parentless children to be adopted by ANYONE fit enough to care for them and freedom of religion. That family sure is fragile, isn't it?

The growing wage gap, the increased need for both parents to work more than full time, the constant erosion of personal rights, the declining education system, none that has anything to do with it. It's all because the sinners are trying to *gasp* choose their own paths rather than have people tell them what path they MUST tread.
It's amazing how simple it is to negate their whole argument...

It might help if we looked at the past societies in which prostitution was legal or current societies where drug use is legal.

Yes.

Next question.

Next question.

Why?

It might help if we looked at the past societies in which prostitution was legal or current societies where drug use is legal.

Is this just a generic helpful suggestion, or are you trying to make a point for either side?

i love that statement when referring to drugs and prostitution as
"victimless" crimes... did you know that there is no such thing as a victimless crime?? victim means there is noone to hurt.. now.. you steal from a store.. you hurt the owner and the customers whom have to pay for the products which are now priced higher because of the financial loss the owner just faced. drugs? how about people who have been hit by cars because the driver was under the influence (btw i'm not just talking pot. i'm referring to all of it)
Okay, then let's ban alcohol and driving while pissed or sad...oh, wait, we tried that first one, didn't we? NEXT!

or how about the woman who is beaten for her money because some person needs their next fix?

That's because illegality makes the price artificially high. NEXT!

or how about the pimp who uses drug to controll the women he is selling on the street to keep them complacemnt and pilable for the customers...

Unless the pimp is actually forcing the drugs into the womens' bodies, the women MAKE THAT CHOICE and reap the consequences. NEXT!

now onto prostitution.. about 98% of all prostitutes and porn stars were sexually molested / abused when they were younger. 85% of all prostitutes and 68% of all porn stars are on drugs so that they can mentally cope with what they are doing for money. 95% of all prostitutes have been victims of a beating or (yes this can happen ) rape.
I love it when people put things in parentheses is if it were some kind of surprise -- really? Prostitutes can get raped?!? NO! Surely not, no!!

Okay -- can I see ANY kind of proof or source for your random statistical data, please? Being a prostitute or a porn star is a choice. Being abused or molested has fuck-all to do with it. Plenty of women in other professions were assaulted as well, does that make those professions prone to occupation by abuse vitims? If they're on drugs, guess what, that's their choice again. I point you toward The Netherlands and ask you to please reconsider your Mickey Mouse approach to the topic of consensual crimes.

i was reminded by a MALE co-worker who is sitting behind me.. to mention these lovely facts.

So the hell what? Are we supposed to believe that this fact makes him some kind of hero? Hell, he's probably trying to fake sensitive so he can get into your skivvies.

how about the babies that are born addicted to various drugs due to the mother being a drug addict. the suffering that the children go thru when their "parent" spends all thier money on drugs and nothing on food, clothing, or many other household necessities. "theres plenty of other things to go on about but no need for overkill"

What about when the parent gambles all the money away? Drinks it all away? Spends it on other women? Buys a boat instead of schoolbooks for the kids? You're really pissing into the wind here.

so think again before you say victimless crime.
Okay, I've thought again, and I think there are plenty of victimless crimes. A better word is consensual crimes. I urge you to check out a book by the late Peter MacWilliams entitled Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do: The Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in a Free Society. I also urge you to read, do a little more than cursory research and try to sell your point from a less emotional stance.

FOR GOD'S SAKE, WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN?!? Is not a good argument.

Why?
Good question.

Why? Because it's one of the few things we haven't tried and it seems to work elsewhere.

Unless that was a generic, Zen kind of "why", in which case I'll respond thus:

Why not?

Or better yet,

Because.

Where did you get those numbers from?
Her sigmoid colon, most likely.

Intang...wow.... :o
Bleeding liberal.

Prostitution ought not to be legalized. It posses too great a threat to the family. It encourages sex addiction, unfaithfulness, STD (no matter how many precautions one takes, there is always the risk), selfishness in your sexual life (I want it now!) etc. All these in turn encourage divorce and domestic abuse. Everyone agrees those are horibble. Divorce may be necessary at times, but it's still horrible.
Uh...okay. How does prostitution encourage sex addiction? Ans are you seriously telling us that it's prostitution that encourages unfaithfulness? Ever hear of supply and demand? Wow, you've got a real house of cards for an argument here. Any support at all for this offal?

I haven't made up my mind about drugs yet.
Right. Then how do you explain that spaced-out first paragraph? Don't lie to us, it damages your status as a didactic moralist.

Intang...wow.... :o
Bleeding liberal.
Spot on, genius!

Now, have you got anything else to say, or are you sticking to the incredibly obvious?

Sheesh, I am in a MOOD today. I wonder who pissed in my Wheaties this morning?

Simply because people desecrate it isn't reason to abolish it.

And there would be no divorce or spousal abuse without marriage because they require you to be married to begin with!

Ohh... You were joking...at least I hope you were
And simply because people abuse substances is no reason to criminalize them. See how that logic cuts both ways? Try again.

In Japan they likem young....and they have major sex addictions.....MAJOR.
Why wait to be 18 when 13-14 is fine? Its so bad that many wives in Japan assume their husbands go to a strip club or see younger women all the time.

Let's just say that legalized prostitution isn't exactly the best option in the world. Take a look at Australia. Though when you consider it....who really wants teenagers selling themselves?

Or you're just simply stating that you aren't willing to put people in jail for doing something simply because you disagree with it. I disagree with smoking. I think it's disgusting. Am I supporting the practice because I think it should be legal? No. I disagree with being a Nazi, with being a fundamentalist, with being a Republican, with facial piercing, with synchonized swimming. Should I ban all of these practices or only the ones that are sins? There is such a thing as disagreeing with an action while being unwilling to violate people's personal rights.
AMEN. Say on, brotha.

Intang...wow.... :o
Bleeding liberal.

More like making others bleed liberal.

Sensible posts, but what anger! You been arrested recently for prostitution, Intangelon?

I think prostitution should be legalized AND REGULATED with receipts, mandatory STD testing for workers, claiming the income on your taxes, etc. That way they could just crack down on the real shameful stuff, like kids and immigrants (who don't speak the language and/or are dependant on their pimps to shelter them and not call Immigration cops on them) being prostituted.

In Japan they likem young....and they have major sex addictions.....MAJOR.
Why wait to be 18 when 13-14 is fine? Its so bad that many wives in Japan assume their husbands go to a strip club or see younger women all the time.

Let's just say that legalized prostitution isn't exactly the best option in the world. Take a look at Australia. Though when you consider it....who really wants teenagers selling themselves?
"They"? Show me some facts, please.

13-14 is illegal in Japan and Australia. Legalize it like Clark County (Nevada) does. Strictly regulated with enforcement switching to abuse of the privilege instead of prevention, just like alcohol and driving and businesses and everything else that's regulated or you need a license to do.

In Japan they likem young....and they have major sex addictions.....MAJOR.
Why wait to be 18 when 13-14 is fine? Its so bad that many wives in Japan assume their husbands go to a strip club or see younger women all the time.

Let's just say that legalized prostitution isn't exactly the best option in the world. Take a look at Australia. Though when you consider it....who really wants teenagers selling themselves?

So put in protection for youth. While prostitution is illegal, the age of the prostitute matters not.

As for the addiction stuff, that's more to do with Japan's general insanity.

More like making others bleed liberal.

Sensible posts, but what anger! You been arrested recently for prostitution, Intangelon?
Nah. Good deduction though.

I'll have to beg the forum's forgiveness -- posts based on emotion or sentimentality and the intent of legislating morality according to what some people find distasteful really piss me off. It's my intent to show these petty moralists that not everyone swallows that horseshit. And the tone! Preachy, pedantic, using the language of high school cliques to make points...I just like to give a bit back.

Apologies to anyone if they're genuinely offended. Like I posted earlier, I'm also in a MOOD.

"They"? Show me some facts, please.

13-14 is illegal in Japan and Australia. Legalize it like Clark County (Nevada) does. Strictly regulated with enforcement switching to abuse of the privilege instead of prevention, just like alcohol and driving and businesses and everything else that's regulated or you need a license to do.

Japan....its NOTORIOUS for its ways about sex.

Being molested on the train is a very common thing for girls. Now only a few years ago child porngraphy was actually legal!

http://www.ageofconsent.com/japan.htm

Although they have made it illegal for child prostition...its still very prevalent and is not going to stop. I'm surprised I have to actually go out and prove things to you about the most well-known source of it.

Japan....its NOTORIOUS for its ways about sex.

Being molested on the train is a very common thing for girls. Now only a few years ago child porngraphy was actually legal!

http://www.ageofconsent.com/japan.htm

Although they have made it illegal for child prostition...its still very prevalent and is not going to stop. I'm surprised I have to actually go out and prove things to you about the most well-known source of it.

Indeed. But what's your point in relation to the topic?

I really want to make a libertarian joke about this, but I can't think of a good one.

Something like..

Typical left wing socialist thinking. Government run prostitution? Everybody knows the government isn't nearly as efficient as the private sector! If the private sector were in charge of prostitution, better orgasms would be achived for more competitive prices!

If we allow the big fat democrat socialist government to run prostitution, there will be no prostitution! We'd be paying way too much for women who might not even be sexually experienced, or willing to give oral!

If the private sector were running prostitution, the invisible hand of the market would ensure that the most successful prostitutes are the sexually talented, open minded ones with the fewest STDs. And those whores would be available for a much more reasonable price than prostitution run by a democrat liberal socialist pork barrel government monopoly!


Lol no they would prolly make profiles of the girls so you could pick which one you want and all.

Well...when a school girl comes up to you and asks you for money for sex....and its pretty bad...what would you think? Face it, its so open that almost anyone can do it (and more so the underaged ones). Prostition should be outlawed.

Lol no they would prolly make profiles of the girls so you could pick which one you want and all.

Actually that's what they did in Japan. The Yazuka do that....and also the secret trade in America to.

YES there exists such a ring of sex-slaves in America that are in forced prostitution.

Well...when a school girl comes up to you and asks you for money for sex....and its pretty bad...what would you think? Face it, its so open that almost anyone can do it (and more so the underaged ones). Prostition should be outlawed.

More to the point drugs should remain illegal. With legalized prostitution you can argue that the whores will not become assaulted, diseased, drug addicted wretches. Drugs will remain a danger legal or no. You can think that violence of drug trades will cease but after the drug companies get prices high the black market will still be profitable. Not to mention the addicts who will now feel free to continue in their activities.

More to the point drugs should remain illegal. With legalized prostitution you can argue that the whores will not become assaulted, diseased, drug addicted wretches. Drugs will remain a danger legal or no. You can think that violence of drug trades will cease but after the drug companies get prices high the black market will still be profitable. Not to mention the addicts who will now feel free to continue in their activities.

Actually sense my reference is Japan, there is surprisingly little drug abuse between under-aged prostitutes or even legal ones. They originally got into it for the better apartment, nicer things and nicer clothes or whatever. People will pay huge amounts for them and even the guys are getting into this now....most are not drug-addicts and are using the money for better purposes.

Drugs will remain a danger legal or no. You can think that violence of drug trades will cease but after the drug companies get prices high the black market will still be profitable.

You kid, right? Criminals cannot access the same ecomonies of scale as a large business. End of story.


Not to mention the addicts who will now feel free to continue in their activities.

There's not a single addict in all the world who stopped taking drugs because it was illegal.

Actually sense my reference is Japan, there is surprisingly little drug abuse between under-aged prostitutes or even legal ones. They originally got into it for the better apartment, nicer things and nicer clothes or whatever. People will pay huge amounts for them and even the guys are getting into this now....most are not drug-addicts and are using the money for better purposes.

And yet you say legalized prostitution is a bad thing.

And yet you say legalized prostitution is a bad thing.

It is. It is so prevalent that its almost expected of many businessmen by there wives....Oh more info.

japan

"Ancient Japan resembled both India and China in having institutionalized Greek-style pederasty of boys - by priests as well as warriors - temple prostitution of both boys and girls, and widespread child prostitution, including the ancient geisha system.(149) Japanese brothels would start girls in sexual service at S to 7 years old.(150) Pederasty (shudo) by the aristocracy and priesthood is well documented since at least the 14th century, with young boys given by their parents to be used anally by samurais and by priests in monasteries - the buggered boys sometimes having been worshipped as gods incarnate in religious cults similar to those of the cult of the Virgin in the West.(151)

One of the most endogenous societies in the world, Japan has approved of incestuous marriages in court circles even in historical times.(152) Preferred sibling, cousin, uncle-niece and aunt-nephew marriages have been so extensive that genetics experts have discovered that the inbreeding has affected their size and health.(153) How often this incestuous marriage system occurred in traditional Japan is still largely unexplored. One indication of what is likely to be found is a 1959 study by Kubo showing that there were still rural areas in Japan where fathers married their daughters when the mother had died or was incapacitated, "in accordance with feudal family traditions.(154) Kubo concluded that incest was considered "praiseworthy conduct" in many traditional rural families. In the 36 incest cases he studied in Hiroshima, he found that there was often community moral disapproval of the families who lived in open incestuous marriages, but that the participants themselves did not think of it as immoral. In fact, when the father was unavailable to head the family, his son often took over his role and had sex with his sister in order "to end confusion in the order of the home." Other members of the family accepted this incest as normal.

In traditional Japan, quite young girls were introduced into sex by older boys who visited their bedrooms at night with the complicity of the girl's parents (called night-prowling, yobai). The boys "assembled in communal huts and instructed slightly younger village males in sex approaches and techniques..." Although they recommended "gentle persuasion,"(155) there was no guarantee that all was so gentle in fact, since the parents "looked the other way" in accordance with custom while the older boys had intercourse with their young daughters.

Western observers even today often notice that Japanese mothers still masturbate their young children during the day in public and at night in the family bed - in order, they say, "to put them to sleep."(156) The average Japanese today sleeps with his or her children until the children are ten or fifteen years old,"(157) - one recent Japanese study found daughters still sleeping with their fathers over 20 percent of the time even after age sixteen.(158) Even when the home contains a dozen rooms or more, parents and grandparents feel "lonely" if they sleep apart from
the children in the family, and therefore go to bed with some child every night (the mean age in one study of children sleeping alone is 12.7 years).(159) Since so many families still practice what is termed dakine co-sleeping - with the parent or grandparent sleeping while physically embracing the child, a practice said to be beneficial to the health of the adult"(160) - and since most Japanese parents still regularly have sexual in-tercourse while the child is in bed with them,(161) one wonders how scholars can continue to maintain that nothing sexual usually happens to the Japanese child in the family bed, particularly since none have yet ask-ed the children themselves about their sexual experiences."

From http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/06a1_incest.html

More evidence that even legalized prostitution is bad and just how prevalent molestation (or more in this case...rape) is.

Actually sense my reference is Japan, there is surprisingly little drug abuse between under-aged prostitutes or even legal ones. They originally got into it for the better apartment, nicer things and nicer clothes or whatever. People will pay huge amounts for them and even the guys are getting into this now....most are not drug-addicts and are using the money for better purposes.

I didn't mean to reference Japan just that I feel that drugs are a bigger issue than prostitution.

There's not a single addict in all the world who stopped taking drugs because it was illegal.

Yes, but now they would feel they have some moral right to become an addicted scumbag because it is legal. Society would have no problem with it so why should they?

It is. It is so prevalent that its almost expected of many businessmen by there wives....Oh more info.



From http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/06a1_incest.html

More evidence that even legalized prostitution is bad and just how prevalent molestation (or more in this case...rape) is.

That had nothing to do with legalized prostitution

Oh man....I effectively killed that huh... Even with legalized prostitution (for 18 and over) the fact that child prostitution is overly prevalent and at the VERY LEAST, molestation is wide-scale. As a result that's why the older (and usually richer men) are asked by young girls (underage) for money for sex.

Such a wide-scale problem....and you want to legalize prostitution elsewhere!?

That had nothing to do with legalized prostitution

Yes it did.

Underage (illegal still) Prostitution is so prevalent that it was said about the legalized part. The prostitution ring is legal for 18 and older...but there are children in it, and its so prevalent that it wouldn't be nearly that bad if all prostition itself was illegal.

Case in point, the schoolgirls whoring themselves out for money.

If you can't follow that simple thought train and combined with the major abuse of children (and hence why child prostitutes are so common) then you are mentally retarded.

Yes, but now they would feel they have some moral right to become an addicted scumbag because it is legal. Society would have no problem with it so why should they?

You don't really understand the word "addicted" do you? People aren't addicts because they feel they should be or because society tells them to be. They are addicts because they are addicted to a substance and will continue to be whether or not the substance is legal or not.

You don't really understand the word "addicted" do you? People aren't addicts because they feel they should be or because society tells them to be. They are addicts because they are addicted to a substance and will continue to be whether or not the substance is legal or not.

Ya seriously. Addicts are hooked on it, they don't care if its legal or not, they CRAVE it. Their body reacts violently on itself without the drug. Legalizing it will only make this more prevalent and would be widespread addiction of the substances.

If you thought cigarettes are bad...you have no idea what heroine or crack will be when trying to stop.

You don't really understand the word "addicted" do you? People aren't addicts because they feel they should be or because society tells them to be. They are addicts because they are addicted to a substance and will continue to be whether or not the substance is legal or not.

Of course that is true. They become hooked and then legalization will simply be another excuse to keep up their addiction along with all their other bullshit excuses of why they should keep it up even though it is slowly killing them. Then there will be those become addicted because of legalization what with easy access (as if it isn't easy enough already). Drugs are outlawed for a reason and government has a right to protect its citizens.

Yes it did.

No, it didn't. It went on about how fucked up Japan is sexually, but failed to show that legal prostitution was the cause.


Underage (illegal still) Prostitution is so prevalent that it was said about the legalized part. The prostitution ring is legal for 18 and older...but there are children in it, and its so prevalent that it wouldn't be nearly that bad if all prostition itself was illegal.

What? You're going to have to rephrase this. I have no idea what you're saying.


Case in point, the schoolgirls whoring themselves out for money.


Which is illegal. Your prohibition is working well, isn't it?


If you can't follow that simple thought train and combined with the major abuse of children (and hence why child prostitutes are so common) then you are mentally retarded.

Guess I'm mentally retarded then.

Ya seriously. Addicts are hooked on it, they don't care if its legal or not, they CRAVE it. Their body reacts violently on itself without the drug. Legalizing it will only make this more prevalent and would be widespread addiction of the substances.

That's a stretch. Care to explain your thinking?


If you thought cigarettes are bad...you have no idea what heroine or crack will be when trying to stop.

Actually, many former heroin addicts have said that cigarettes are more addictive than heroin.

Ya seriously. Addicts are hooked on it, they don't care if its legal or not, they CRAVE it. Their body reacts violently on itself without the drug. Legalizing it will only make this more prevalent and would be widespread addiction of the substances.

If you thought cigarettes are bad...you have no idea what heroine or crack will be when trying to stop.
I don't think crack or heroin would ever be legal to sell, it's only decriminalizing the user of the substance. Which has been shown to work in places like Amsterdam.

Of course that is true. They become hooked and then legalization will simply be another excuse to keep up their addiction along with all their other bullshit excuses of why they should keep it up even though it is slowly killing them.

Is that seriously your argument? Addicts will have one more excuse? Please.


Then there will be those become addicted because of legalization what with easy access (as if it isn't easy enough already).

Most drug addicts already have a plentiful supply. People aren't going to become more addicted simply because there's more drugs around.


Drugs are outlawed for a reason and government has a right to protect its citizens.

Then why is alcohol still legal?

Let's look at it.

Japan is very open about sex and its views are as such.

Prostitution is legal for adults and not minors. However the major age bracket of females is underaged illegal prostitution. They can easily get away with it, even when being very open and approach a rich-looking man on the street. All they have to do is fib about their age or find the right type of man that is into underaged girls.

(Side note: Child pornagraphy was legal in Japan and was prevalent and is still a major source of it on the internet today.

My statement:
If prostitution was illegal there would be far less underage illegal prostitution and it would not be a casual thing that you get asked on the street. (Just like those sick perverts that ask every semi-attractive woman if they want to be an adult-video star and harass them about it.)

Then why is alcohol still legal?

I know for some reason others think otherwise but hard drugs can easily become addicted on. Alcohol can be used responsibly but a few jerks abuse it. Claiming to use heroin or meth responsibly is just ridiculous. Which is why I see a big difference between the two.

There have been a number of studies, Dr. Bruce Alexander's rat park (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park) among them, that have supported the hypothesis that substance addiction is primarily a sociological phenomenon. There is no doubt that drugs have chemically addictive attributes, but research like this suggests that the problem is, at heart, social– not chemical. When we consider that nicotine is, in fact, more addictive than heroine, but that the majority of people who do want to stop smoking suceed in quitting, we have to ask what it is that keeps people addicted to substances that are "chemically" less addictive.
Dr. Alexander's studies (after the publication of which, of course, he was fired and lost funding) propose that rats, (and by extrapolation, people) abuse drugs because they are in socially dysfunction environments- cages, metaphorically or otherwise.
People abuse drugs when they are unhappy, and use them not at all, or in healthy moderation, when they are in healthy social environments.

Let's look at it.

Japan is very open about sex and its views are as such.

Prostitution is legal for adults and not minors. However the major age bracket of females is underaged illegal prostitution. They can easily get away with it, even when being very open and approach a rich-looking man on the street. All they have to do is fib about their age or find the right type of man that is into underaged girls.

(Side note: Child pornagraphy was legal in Japan and was prevalent and is still a major source of it on the internet today.

My statement:
If prostitution was illegal there would be far less underage illegal prostitution and it would not be a casual thing that you get asked on the street. (Just like those sick perverts that ask every semi-attractive woman if they want to be an adult-video star and harass them about it.)
Well let's look at it.

Amsterdam.

Just look at it.

<snip>

The problem there is not prostitution, but the lax enforcement of the law.

I find this relevant to the discussion but others may not see it.

"Gimme that z, o-l-o-f-t
Gimme a grip, make me love me
Suckin' 'em down, I'm happy man
Can feel it inside, makin' me smile

...realize that the sky's not made of gold
don't disguise the nature of your soul

Gimme that z, o-l-o-f-t
No longer pissed and you don't bother me
I'm makin' it through, I'm givin' my all
When base are loaded, I'm whacking the ball

...don't suck the mind, don't drain the source
the path of life's not so easy to course, buddy"

I love Ween.

The problem there is not prostitution, but the lax enforcement of the law.

Actually Japan also has the highest repeat offenders for sexual molestation of a minor. Which stands at 20%. 50% of those in jail know they will probably do it again though.

This is most common on crowded trains when people are heading to school or work. Very few are actually caught mind you. Its just impossible to catch everyone.

I know for some reason others think otherwise but hard drugs can easily become addicted on. Alcohol can be used responsibly but a few jerks abuse it. Claiming to use heroin or meth responsibly is just ridiculous. Which is why I see a big difference between the two.

It is possible to use all class B and C drugs responsibly.

Actually Japan also has the highest repeat offenders for sexual molestation of a minor. Which stands at 20%. 50% of those in jail know they will probably do it again though.

This is most common on crowded trains when people are heading to school or work. Very few are actually caught mind you. Its just impossible to catch everyone.
How is this linked to legalized prostitution?

Actually Japan also has the highest repeat offenders for sexual molestation of a minor. Which stands at 20%. 50% of those in jail know they will probably do it again though.

This is most common on crowded trains when people are heading to school or work. Very few are actually caught mind you. Its just impossible to catch everyone.

What has this to do with prostitution?

Well let's look at it.

Amsterdam.

Just look at it.

http://www.amsterdam.info/red-light-district/
This is government backed. Its tolerated and is acceptable. Though I do not see much for underage prostitution or child molestation or any of the other problems I am seeing for Japan.

A government run program and actually is supported as a career and given full benefits and better working conditions is hardly the kind of message you want for legalized prostitution, the point is legality not government backed.

A government run program and actually is supported as a career and given full benefits and better working conditions is hardly the kind of message you want for legalized prostitution, the point is legality not government backed.

How about the Nevada cat-houses then? They're privately run.

How is this linked to legalized prostitution?

I am refering to illegal underage prostitution. Prostitution if 18 or older is legal.


What has this to do with prostitution?
It backs my point up that the underage sex/molestation/prostitution problem is so widespread that it surpasses any other country in the world for repeat offenders and the sheer number of offenders.

Helping to support my information about the underaged illegal prostitution being widespread and a negative influence on the society. Which is used to make my case that prostitution should be illegal even in nations with current legal prostitution with such widespread abuse of the children and their involvement in illegal prostitution.

http://www.amsterdam.info/red-light-district/
This is government backed. Its tolerated and is acceptable. Though I do not see much for underage prostitution or child molestation or any of the other problems I am seeing for Japan.

A government run program and actually is supported as a career and given full benefits and better working conditions is hardly the kind of message you want for legalized prostitution, the point is legality not government backed.
So, Japan's prostitutes just needs more of a government backing?

Prostotution, yes, that is a victimless crime, but drugs, those are not victemless. If someone smokes, the second hand smoke can harm people who aren't using the drugs, therfore making them victems. Also, if someone is on drugs, the effects of that can be very bad, and make the users do bad things to other people, making them victems.

Prostotution, yes, that is a victimless crime, but drugs, those are not victemless. If someone smokes, the second hand smoke can harm people who aren't using the drugs, therfore making them victems. Also, if someone is on drugs, the effects of that can be very bad, and make the users do bad things to other people, making them victems.
FOR THE LAST TIME, GET OUT OF MY HOUSE WHEN I BE SMOKING MY DOOBIE!!

Legalizing child prostitution would be the only other fix for Japan as government backing wouldn't stop the tide of sexual abuse of minors. Now what nation wants to make it right for a 13 year old to sell their body for sex? International pressure also stops this now. Only solution is to ban prostitution.

Legalizing child prostitution would be the only other fix for Japan as government backing wouldn't stop the tide of sexual abuse of minors. Now what nation wants to make it right for a 13 year old to sell their body for sex? International pressure also stops this now. Only solution is to ban prostitution.
So the way to stop hate speech is to ban free speech.
The way to stop traffic accidents is to ban vehicles.
They way to stop alcoholism is to ban alcohol.

So the way to stop hate speech is to ban free speech.
The way to stop traffic accidents is to ban vehicles.
They way to stop alcoholism is to ban alcohol.

Apples and oranges my dear rival.

You stop it when you and when your allies put pressure on you to make it so child porngraphy is illegal. You do it to protect minors....You can't compare it to those common things. You are talking political, social and global concerns.

If you want to prove me wrong, bring better ammo before taking a shot at my reasoning which offers a proper solution.

something's really wrong with you if you think this kind of stuff should be legalized.

I'd shoot myself the day illegal drugs and prostitution are legalized, because at that point, IMO, our society would have sunk so low into the gutter that there'd be no reason to continue going on.

Of course, I'm probably one of the few people on this forum that finds the prospect of legal marijuana and other drugs is downright sickening. The fact that people choose to do that to themselves is despicable. There are so many alternatives to drugs yet millions of people continue to fall into those holes.

I'm not some crazy, ultra-moralistic, fanatically religious person. I'm just a high school kid who's absolutely nauseated by where our society and culture is standing and where it's heading.

Yes. Not only will the product they provide improve in quality, the tax-man will get his due and a souce of easy money for criminals will be removed. Everybody wins.

as it will also cut down on the senseless gang wars they have around here every other week..over a stupid corner.

it also makes sense in that they can roll some of the taxes they rake in and actually open a few rehabs for people that need it!

as for prostitution...what no brainer...cept for the guilt ridden,rightwing religous extremists.

who are so full of self hate for their "impure thoughts" they have to legislate everyone elses behaviour,as a form of cover for their own urges.

i was an alter boy,and still consider myself religous...but please...you can't legislate morality.

also,i think it would go a bit towards alleviating violence towards women(never eradicate it) but i bet alot of sexual aggression,anger towards women is partly due to sexual frustration,or being rejected or afraid of the fairer sex.

just my humble opine.

as it will also cut down on the senseless gang wars they have around here every other week..over a stupid corner.

it also makes sense in that they can roll some of the taxes they rake in and actually open a few rehabs for people that need it!

as for prostitution...what no brainer...cept for the guilt ridden,rightwing religous extremists.

who are so full of self hate for their "impure thoughts" they have to legislate everyone elses behaviour,as a form of cover for their own urges.

i was an alter boy,and still consider myself religous...but please...you can't legislate morality.

also,i think it would go a bit towards alleviating violence towards women(never eradicate it) but i bet alot of sexual aggression,anger towards women is partly due to sexual frustration,or being rejected or afraid of the fairer sex.

just my humble opine.

I disagree with you on everything and that includes the 'fairer sex' line to. Sounds like some severe apathy you have. You should seek some serious help.

Apples and oranges my dear rival.

You stop it when you and when your allies put pressure on you to make it so child porngraphy is illegal. You do it to protect minors....You can't compare it to those common things. You are talking political, social and global concerns.

If you want to prove me wrong, bring better ammo before taking a shot at my reasoning which offers a proper solution.
But they've already made the act illegal and it appears they are not cracking down on it. How would illegalizing prostitution, in its entirety, be any different than what we've seen?

Of course, I'm probably one of the few people on this forum that finds the prospect of legal marijuana and other drugs is downright sickening. The fact that people choose to do that to themselves is despicable.

What's sicking and despicable about marijuana?

What's sicking and despicable about marijuana?
Eating it with oatmeal. Bleh.

But they've already made the act illegal and it appears they are not cracking down on it. How would illegalizing prostitution, in its entirety, be any different than what we've seen?

Also, given that this problem doesn't exist in Nevada cat-houses and Australian and dutch red light districts, I think the problem lies with Japan, not legal prostitution.

Eating it with oatmeal. Bleh.

Hey, you've got to do something when the munchies come.

But they've already made the act illegal and it appears they are not cracking down on it. How would illegalizing prostitution, in its entirety, be any different than what we've seen?

It would stop the underage prostitution that comes with it. I was picking Japan for my topic because it was less likely to have the drug abuse to be tied into the reasons why people resort to prostitution as that road is bumpy and has been taken.

They DO crack down on it, but its so wide-spread that its impossible to stamp out it all.

It would stop the underage prostitution that comes with it. I was picking Japan for my topic because it was less likely to have the drug abuse to be tied into the reasons why people resort to prostitution as that road is bumpy and has been taken.

They DO crack down on it, but its so wide-spread that its impossible to stamp out it all.
You give no reason for believing this other than your opinion.

something's really wrong with you if you think this kind of stuff should be legalized.

I'd shoot myself the day illegal drugs and prostitution are legalized, because at that point, IMO, our society would have sunk so low into the gutter that there'd be no reason to continue going on.

Of course, I'm probably one of the few people on this forum that finds the prospect of legal marijuana and other drugs is downright sickening. The fact that people choose to do that to themselves is despicable. There are so many alternatives to drugs yet millions of people continue to fall into those holes.

I'm not some crazy, ultra-moralistic, fanatically religious person. I'm just a high school kid who's absolutely nauseated by where our society and culture is standing and where it's heading.

you are entitled to your opinion of coarse.

and i actually respect you for abstaining...it is your perogative.
my view is minors should not be involved with drugs(affects their brain chemistry while their brains are still developing)
and of coarse they should not be involved in prostitution as minors..that is just plain wrong....
but what about consensual sex between minors..is that ok,cause you know it does happen...so sex does not automatically= bad
just adults engaging in that conduct with minors does in my opinion.

my point is...in the 20's...many people felt as you do ,about alchohol...it did not stop it..ever,and actually made it more "glamorous"

and here we are.80+ years later,and people drink,and some destroy themselves with it,but most dont!

if it is hurtfull to you..dont do it.

but please...honestly,where do you get off dictating what an adult does with their own bodies?
seriously,do you have some supersecret insight i missed all these 40 odd years i have lived?

forcing things underground does 2 things...it creates crimminals that victimize the weak,and creates crimminals of those that partake.
for no other reason that it makes you uncomfortable.

that is no different then me saying...religion makes me uncomfortable(the opiate of the masses)so outlaw it and make crimminals of those that think different then me.

i think the romans did that to the christians some years back.

again your entitled to your opinion..and you may be right!
i just think it would help with crime and people exploiting young kids if it was regulated..not driven underground.

You give no reason for believing this other than your opinion.

I've given links and have cited other material. It is not just my own opinion about the matter.

you are entitled to your opinion of coarse.

and i actually respect you for abstaining...it is your perogative.
my view is minors should not be involved with drugs(affects their brain chemistry while their brains are still developing)
and of coarse they should not be involved in prostitution as minors..that is just plain wrong....
but what about consensual sex between minors..is that ok,cause you know it does happen...so sex does not automatically= bad
just adults engaging in that conduct with minors does in my opinion.

my point is...in the 20's...many people felt as you do ,about alchohol...it did not stop it..ever,and actually made it more "glamorous"

and here we are.80+ years later,and people drink,and some destroy themselves with it,but most dont!

if it is hurtfull to you..dont do it.

but please...honestly,where do you get off dictating what an adult does with their own bodies?
seriously,do you have some supersecret insight i missed all these 40 odd years i have lived?

forcing things underground does 2 things...it creates crimminals that victimize the weak,and creates crimminals of those that partake.
for no other reason that it makes you uncomfortable.

that is no different then me saying...religion makes me uncomfortable(the opiate of the masses)so outlaw it and make crimminals of those that think different then me.

i think the romans did that to the christians some years back.

again your entitled to your opinion..and you may be right!
i just think it would help with crime and people exploiting young kids if it was regulated..not driven underground.

Also note that the Romans also used babies for fellatio.....they weren't exactly a model of morality. The old ways are gone....

It seems like a lot of people, both on this board and off, view these issues as more black and white than they should be.

While I do believe at least soft drugs should be legalized with restrictions as far as driving under the influence and using them at work, just as there are with alcohol and, to some extent, cigarette smoking, I think it's a much more complex issue than people assume it to be. Drug use, even alcohol and nicotine, is by no means a victimless crime. It's more than a "personal choice", (just like eating meat, which is another issue altogether) as it can have some very profound effects on those surrounding the user. The very fact that books have been written on "the alcoholic family" (see: The Alcoholic Family) is proof enough that it can be incredibly detrimental to the user's family. As an example, while drunk my father would frequently become abusive, emotionally and physically, and sometimes even sexually. Alcoholics with even a slight tendency toward pedophilia are far more likely to act out their urges when under the influence, and if alcohol can trigger such a socially unacceptable behavior, I find it kind of frightening to imagine the effect a harder drug may have.

As far as prostitution, in a completely equal society where women aren't constantly bombarded with images and media pressure, along with real-life examples of women being subservient to men, I would have no problem with prostitution. However, we don't live in such a society and to legalize prostitution is to promote the idea that women are a commodity and a product to be sold. Even self-prostitution with no "pimp" involved is not simply a matter of personal choice. This woman has spent her entire life absorbing society's influence, so how can a choice be said to be her own? Were one not exposed to prostitution as a means to an end, would it even be considered as an option? This may explain why there are so few male prostitutes. Men are not typically presented this as an option, so it doesn't occur to them to take up such a "profession". While there is also the point to be made about the abuse of the lower class, I find the argument concerning androcentrism to be more interesting.

I disagree with you on everything and that includes the 'fairer sex' line to. Sounds like some severe apathy you have. You should seek some serious help.

severe apathy?
for having an opinion..is not that the opposite of apathy?

if i was apethetic,would i not say i dont give a shit either way?

i thought i made some points about it alleviating some crime problems(gangs) and some anger violence problems towards women.
and that it may be usefull in bankrolling rehabs.

hardly apathetic if you ask me...your reply on the other hand...did nothing to prove me incorrect or offer an alternative.
just a curt dissmissal and an insult!

i would argue you have no point..just a kneejerk reaction to my pov,but have nothing to counter my points..so you use invective and tell me to "get help"

i am curious as too what "help" is available to people that are as you claim i am.."apathetic"

fill me in please...

if not,and you have no valid points...your just either a troll or so brainwashed into your beliefs your only responce to an honest debate is invective!

your entitled to your feelings on the subject,as am i,however i did not tell you that you need therapy or need help,and you did not offer any alternative opinions,only your insult.

you did that...not me.

is that the foundation of your opinion...cause i said so?

i know of dictators and horrid judges ,and jihadists, with more of an argument then you.

there ..you got an insult back from me...but note...after you offered no reply to me other then insults.

sorry you are so close minded.

p.s.say i was a troll under a bridge,no women would give me the time o day,rightfully,seeing that i am horribly disfigured.

all i want to do in my life is know the touch of a women,but alas..no one is there(thats were the frustration comes in...read phantom of the opera)so i have what options?

say i decide to give up my dream of being with a women and decide to lay about under my bridge and wallow in self pity,and the only thing that gives me solice is smoking some weed...you want to deny me that as well...

why not just shoot all the ugly depressed people and put them out of their misery....your perfect and beautiful,and you know whats best..cause you say so!:headbang:

It seems like a lot of people, both on this board and off, view these issues as more black and white than they should be.

While I do believe at least soft drugs should be legalized with restrictions as far as driving under the influence and using them at work, just as there are with alcohol and, to some extent, cigarette smoking, I think it's a much more complex issue than people assume it to be. Drug use, even alcohol and nicotine, is by no means a victimless crime. It's more than a "personal choice", (just like eating meat, which is another issue altogether) as it can have some very profound effects on those surrounding the user. The very fact that books have been written on "the alcoholic family" (see: The Alcoholic Family) is proof enough that it can be incredibly detrimental to the user's family. As an example, while drunk my father would frequently become abusive, emotionally and physically, and sometimes even sexually. Alcoholics with even a slight tendency toward pedophilia are far more likely to act out their urges when under the influence, and if alcohol can trigger such a socially unacceptable behavior, I find it kind of frightening to imagine the effect a harder drug may have.

As far as prostitution, in a completely equal society where women aren't constantly bombarded with images and media pressure, along with real-life examples of women being subservient to men, I would have no problem with prostitution. However, we don't live in such a society and to legalize prostitution is to promote the idea that women are a commodity and a product to be sold. Even self-prostitution with no "pimp" involved is not simply a matter of personal choice. This woman has spent her entire life absorbing society's influence, so how can a choice be said to be her own? Were one not exposed to prostitution as a means to an end, would it even be considered as an option? This may explain why there are so few male prostitutes. Men are not typically presented this as an option, so it doesn't occur to them to take up such a "profession". While there is also the point to be made about the abuse of the lower class, I find the argument concerning androcentrism to be more interesting.

You are truely wise. *clap*

Thank you!

Also note that the Romans also used babies for fellatio.....they weren't exactly a model of morality. The old ways are gone....

i used the romans as a point,that you obviously misunderstood.

that some chosen few created crimminals out of christians,and did some pretty horrific things in the name of the law.

seems we have come full circle!

-Snip-

:headbang:

You are incorrectly identifying the problem and the cause of it. See the poster above you. He explains it far more simplistic and neatly.

Eating it with oatmeal. Bleh.

are you nuts....i love my apple and cinnamon oatmeal with a dash of sugar and maple syrup...when i am in the "mood" for food,but then again,i like my pizza and wings too,and cheesesteaks,and a nice juicy n.y. strip steak,and ice cream with whip cream....you get the picture i hope..lol;)

It seems like a lot of people, both on this board and off, view these issues as more black and white than they should be.

While I do believe at least soft drugs should be legalized with restrictions as far as driving under the influence and using them at work, just as there are with alcohol and, to some extent, cigarette smoking, I think it's a much more complex issue than people assume it to be. Drug use, even alcohol and nicotine, is by no means a victimless crime. It's more than a "personal choice", (just like eating meat, which is another issue altogether) as it can have some very profound effects on those surrounding the user. The very fact that books have been written on "the alcoholic family" (see: The Alcoholic Family) is proof enough that it can be incredibly detrimental to the user's family. As an example, while drunk my father would frequently become abusive, emotionally and physically, and sometimes even sexually. Alcoholics with even a slight tendency toward pedophilia are far more likely to act out their urges when under the influence, and if alcohol can trigger such a socially unacceptable behavior, I find it kind of frightening to imagine the effect a harder drug may have.

As far as prostitution, in a completely equal society where women aren't constantly bombarded with images and media pressure, along with real-life examples of women being subservient to men, I would have no problem with prostitution. However, we don't live in such a society and to legalize prostitution is to promote the idea that women are a commodity and a product to be sold. Even self-prostitution with no "pimp" involved is not simply a matter of personal choice. This woman has spent her entire life absorbing society's influence, so how can a choice be said to be her own? Were one not exposed to prostitution as a means to an end, would it even be considered as an option? This may explain why there are so few male prostitutes. Men are not typically presented this as an option, so it doesn't occur to them to take up such a "profession". While there is also the point to be made about the abuse of the lower class, I find the argument concerning androcentrism to be more interesting.

all valid points..and worthy of consideration.

alot better then, i said so ,attitudes towards the subject at hand.

i do disagree on some points,but on others,you have good points.

i used the romans as a point,that you obviously misunderstood.

that some chosen few created crimminals out of christians,and did some pretty horrific things in the name of the law.

seems we have come full circle!

You know what....forget it....

i posted some statistics that i have run across in my studies.. and someone wanted to know where i got the information .. just in case i made it up

http://www1.umn.edu/aurora/prostitutionstats.htm
http://www.fedstats.gov/
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/

those are some stat pages
try also checking the following books



Child Pornography and Sex Rings by Ann Wohlbert Burgess

Whoever fights monsters - robert k. ressler

the gift of fear - gavin de becker

Sexual Homicide: Patterns and Motives- John E. Douglas, Ann W. Burgess, and Robert K. Ressler

Crime Classification Manual : A Standard System for Investigating and Classifying Violent Crimes by John E. Douglas, Ann W. Burgess, Allen G. Burgess, and Robert K. Ressler

just in case you think that i'm just picking random names of people who are nobodies

John Douglas and Robert Ressler were the directors of the FBI's BSU (behavioral science unit) at Quantico and both have gone on to teach classes at Quantico for future BSU employees

Gavin de Becker is one of the leading experts in stalking behavior and his company has created and maintaned the program MOSAIC which is used by the president and other government officials.. and by whomever employs them to screen all letters that come thru for threat assesment.. not based on a key word structure but in a context structure

Ann Burgess.. i am not sure of the jobs she has done, but she has been published in medical journals and her books are held in all law libraries. she seems to focus on child abuse.

i stated those things.. ot because i just randomly pulled them out of my rear end.. but because i read a LOT and criminology has been my main field of study.. specifically centering around serial crimes

I was thinking that was to me also. Though it appears as if it has cleared up a tad.

yah that wasn't directed at you, it was to someones earlier comment back on page 3 to my original post. it seems to be habit of people that when you start giving statistics, they think you made them up.. as if things aren't really happening that way. i used to think drugs and prostitution should all be legalized.. but when i started reading mor into it .. books from reputable sources about things that were happening in the legalized field of prostitution and with drugs.. it made me change my mind.. yes amsterdam has a red-light district.. but do you really know what happens to those girls? or what happens to the views of the government when those things are legal? how mind-set is altered? i'm not saying that men do not get victimised.. but women do get victimised a lot more.. and women are villified as well... i will point to a recent event that was published by CNN (if i can find the link to the story i will post it.. found it on fark a while back) a Judge in Italy cleard a man of all charged that were brought upon him for raping his step-daughter because .. the man in question said " she couldn't have been hurt by this seeing as she was not a virgin" basically saying that because she had been sexually active before that she was used to that kind of act.. so therefore no trauma could have taken place.. also in Italy a woman who wears short skirts cannot be raped (ie she was asking for it) when women are viewed as objects.. that is when we believe that sex (in any form.. rape.. molestation.. prostitution) is victimless.

they are victims. be it societal or monetary.. they are victims. bullied into believing that they aren't good for anything other than spreading thier legs.

yah that wasn't directed at you, it was to someones earlier comment back on page 3 to my original post. it seems to be habit of people that when you start giving statistics, they think you made them up..

*raises hand*

Me. My trust in a four post nation is, at best, minimal.

CNN has put it in their vault.. but here is a reprint of the article
http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissinfo.html?siteSect=143&sid=6480704&cKey=1140205856000

You know what....forget it....

your logic eludes me as far as the roman thing goes.

you said something about fellatio with children?

which had zero bearing on my point that people crimminalise things they disagree with(ie. romans with catholics)because they find them repugnant or against there agendas.

how on earth your fellatio comment serves any point other then bein inflammatory is beyond me.

i simply equated modern day moralists..saying i am bad for believing differently from you...to the romans who persecuted christians for believing differently then them...surely you can see the irony.

on one hand(modern day moralists despise drugs or prostitution)on the other hand..irony here...roman legislators outlawed and crimminalised christians(you know the whole toss enm to the lions thing)on moral or political agenda grounds.

if i remember the christians were kinda against infant fellatio...yet you throw that out as an inflammatory retort without bothering to read what i wrote...and dissmiss my point that moralists or politicians can distort laws to persecute even the most pious amongsts us.

must have fell on deaf ears..so i bid you ado' and enjoy your simple little world.

please stay out of mine.

please dont run for political office,or i will be forced to drop my apathy and be forced to show you for what you are..a moralist with no concern about the debate..only your agenda.

Why should or why shouldn't drugs and prostitution and other "victimless" crimes be decriminalized or legalized? How would societies and nations benefit from continuing to prohibit or loosening the controls of these activities? Would they reduce the indulgence of these activities? Speak your opinion and your reasons here.

Drugs should be illegal because they provide harm (to the users and those around them, and to society as a whole) with no real benefit.

Prostitution should be legal, because it should not be illegal to sell something that it is legal to do for free.

Drugs should be illegal because they provide harm (to the users and those around them, and to society as a whole) with no real benefit.

Prostitution should be legal, because it should not be illegal to sell something that it is legal to do for free.

using that logic..can i not..grow a plant in my yard..that is not engineered by phizer,and smoke it,and not bother anyone?

i actually think your argument has more solid footing by being against prostitution...more people to exploit there.

you aint forcing me to drugs,but a 12 year old girl can be forced into prostitution...ask the japenese bizness men that take sex trips to thailand to screw children...sick f###s

People are completely hypocritical, lie about their motives, or are just plain too stupid to think about the position they’ve been told to take. Those that say we should keep drugs banned because they ‘harm’ people have to take the same stance against alcohol, tobacco, morphine, even caffeine. Basically unless you are a Mormon who also refuses prescription drugs, you have no right whatsoever to argue against drug use.

Cigarettes are far more addictive than any other drug, and they kill thousands of people every year. Yet how many of you are happy to keep tobacco legal yet marijuana is such a sick and evil thing despite its incredibly low rate of addiction and comparatively negligible health problems (and before you start moralizing about how I'm just a pothead trying to justify it: I do not use drugs, have no interest in using drugs, will probably never use drugs even if legal, but I will not force others to make the same choices I make – if I did the first choice I would force on you is atheism). People are still responsible for their actions, even if they are drunk or high. Everything you point to as something bad done by someone who was drunk can also be said to have been done by someone sober. People do messed up things; keeping people from getting high will not stop that.

Either you advocate the banning of all substances that ‘harm’ the body, or you let people make their own decisions. Anything else is hypocritical.

As far as prostitution goes, I will seriously consider your anti-prostitution arguments if you can come up with something better than saying it degrades the moral fiber of society. I believe that there is no harm whatsoever coming from sex – I happen to think that sex is a wonderful thing and not dirty (unless it’s done right ;) Society would benefit greatly if sex were openly talked about and discussed. There is a lot of serious emotional/psychological harm done to people because of some views about sex.

Saying ‘they are forced into it’ or crying ‘exploitation’ is about as relevant as saying nobody should work as seamstresses because of sweatshops.

Those statistics that say 98% of women working in the sex trade were sexually abused and raped is a load of bull. Either that or I just happen to have met every woman in the porn industry who wasn’t abused as a child (I make sex lube – there is not a better industry convention in the world).

Shocking as you may find it (probably because you have been brought up to feel dirty and nasty about your body and are unable to conceive of anything different) some women actually enjoy sex. I know several women who are strippers because they like it. Despite having advanced degrees, wonderful social lives, great families, etc. they strip and do sex shows because they find it a lot of fun. Now some of the porn stars I know are not the brightest bulbs but that does not mean they are all so stupid they got tricked into doing it. I don’t know a single one that was forced into it against her will.

Yet some of you say that because of the prevalence of sex in society even those that thought they were making a personal choice were actually manipulated into it by society. Give me a break. You are the type of person who is incapable of taking personal responsibility for anything. We decide what we do – nobody else is responsible for our actions.

There are few male prostitutes because there is less demand. Simple as that. What demand there is for male prostitutes is homosexual in nature. A woman really doesn’t have to go to a prostitute, just go to the nearest bar – same applies to most homosexual men. Most of the guys I know would love to be able to make a living having sex (do you have any idea how many guys apply to be a porn star? It is staggering).

Krellia : It sounds like you were abused as a child and this has greatly affected your viewpoint. Perhaps you should seek some counseling for the issues you have with sex and alcohol. What your father did to you was wrong, but preventing other people from having sex or drinking is not going to fix that.

People are completely hypocritical, lie about their motives, or are just plain too stupid to think about the position they’ve been told to take. Those that say we should keep drugs banned because they ‘harm’ people have to take the same stance against alcohol, tobacco, morphine, even caffeine. Basically unless you are a Mormon who also refuses prescription drugs, you have no right whatsoever to argue against drug use.

Cigarettes are far more addictive than any other drug, and they kill thousands of people every year. Yet how many of you are happy to keep tobacco legal yet marijuana is such a sick and evil thing despite its incredibly low rate of addiction and comparatively negligible health problems (and before you start moralizing about how I'm just a pothead trying to justify it: I do not use drugs, have no interest in using drugs, will probably never use drugs even if legal, but I will not force others to make the same choices I make – if I did the first choice I would force on you is atheism). People are still responsible for their actions, even if they are drunk or high. Everything you point to as something bad done by someone who was drunk can also be said to have been done by someone sober. People do messed up things; keeping people from getting high will not stop that.

Either you advocate the banning of all substances that ‘harm’ the body, or you let people make their own decisions. Anything else is hypocritical.

As far as prostitution goes, I will seriously consider your anti-prostitution arguments if you can come up with something better than saying it degrades the moral fiber of society. I believe that there is no harm whatsoever coming from sex – I happen to think that sex is a wonderful thing and not dirty (unless it’s done right ;) Society would benefit greatly if sex were openly talked about and discussed. There is a lot of serious emotional/psychological harm done to people because of some views about sex.

Saying ‘they are forced into it’ or crying ‘exploitation’ is about as relevant as saying nobody should work as seamstresses because of sweatshops.

Those statistics that say 98% of women working in the sex trade were sexually abused and raped is a load of bull. Either that or I just happen to have met every woman in the porn industry who wasn’t abused as a child (I make sex lube – there is not a better industry convention in the world).

Shocking as you may find it (probably because you have been brought up to feel dirty and nasty about your body and are unable to conceive of anything different) some women actually enjoy sex. I know several women who are strippers because they like it. Despite having advanced degrees, wonderful social lives, great families, etc. they strip and do sex shows because they find it a lot of fun. Now some of the porn stars I know are not the brightest bulbs but that does not mean they are all so stupid they got tricked into doing it. I don’t know a single one that was forced into it against her will.

Yet some of you say that because of the prevalence of sex in society even those that thought they were making a personal choice were actually manipulated into it by society. Give me a break. You are the type of person who is incapable of taking personal responsibility for anything. We decide what we do – nobody else is responsible for our actions.

There are few male prostitutes because there is less demand. Simple as that. What demand there is for male prostitutes is homosexual in nature. A woman really doesn’t have to go to a prostitute, just go to the nearest bar – same applies to most homosexual men. Most of the guys I know would love to be able to make a living having sex (do you have any idea how many guys apply to be a porn star? It is staggering).

Krellia : It sounds like you were abused as a child and this has greatly affected your viewpoint. Perhaps you should seek some counseling for the issues you have with sex and alcohol. What your father did to you was wrong, but preventing other people from having sex or drinking is not going to fix that.

wow...outstanding.

but you will never have them learn...they are so full of self hate,and cant admit it..they will try and push thier moralistic agenda on you....forget the fact that they have the same urges as you..they have been taught it is wrong,and thats that.

like you said...for whatever reason ,they feel sex and feeling free with youself is dirty...no matter what you say..will budge them from there point.

and do not exspect a rational counter point...there is none...so they revert to insults or biblical nonsense.

my advice is to pity them...they are going to live a life of sacrifice for some full of shit pious asshat..that will get indicted for molesting kids...i was molested by a priest..and i had a few issues..but it opened my eyes to the truth of human sexuality.

as long as you have people brainwashing and being brainwashed that sex is dirty...you will have this stupidity,and hypocracy.

sex is normal for everyone...and some guy that cant because of his religous convictions telling you it is dirty does not make it so....cause he is human as well...thats why i think priests should be able to be marired.

i would love to spend my life as a priest,helping others..my dad was a deacon,i love helping others...but it is against human nature to be celibate...period

great post by the way...outstanding

http://www1.umn.edu/aurora/prostitutionstats.htm
My, oh my, do they ever have an agenda. And laying on pretty thick as well. All those sociological studies deciding whats best for the poor women.

Oh, yes and yes.

Prostitution YES

Drugs NO

Prostitution, yes. Definitely yes.

Drugs, divided. "Soft drugs" as marijuana and similar substances, absolutely yes. "Hard drugs" and highly addictive drugs, no.

I think it would be helpful to the con side of the debate if they were to find statistics about Holland and its drug and prostiution industry. The pro side is using Holland greatly in its debate, and since the debate is over if legalization of prostitution/drugs would be beneficiary and Holland is one of the few countries that has legalized/decriminalized both, it would be conducive to their argument to comment more thoroughly on that region and try to find arguments that support their viewpoint. I'm not saying whether or not they'd find anything, I'm just trying to help the flow of the debate.

Why should or why shouldn't drugs and prostitution and other "victimless" crimes be decriminalized or legalized? How would societies and nations benefit from continuing to prohibit or loosening the controls of these activities? Would they reduce the indulgence of these activities? Speak your opinion and your reasons here.
Both should be decriminalized and regulated. More lives are destroyed by the War on Drugs than have ever been hurt by drugs themselves, and anti-prostitution laws only serve to punish the victims of the sex trade.

Why should or why shouldn't drugs and prostitution and other "victimless" crimes be decriminalized or legalized? How would societies and nations benefit from continuing to prohibit or loosening the controls of these activities? Would they reduce the indulgence of these activities? Speak your opinion and your reasons here.

Well prostitution isn't really victimless is it?
In a lot of cases the girls are exploited, but drugs, yeah, it's your own choice. legalise it, and certainly legalise weed, it's less harmfull then alcohol.

Well prostitution isn't really victimless is it?

That's why it's in quotation marks, because not everybody agrees about whether it's victimless or not. I'm not endorsing either side in this thread.

After reading the first couple posts, I can quite appalled. Legalizing Drugs?! DRUGS KILL! There is no such thing as a victimless crimes! The Tax created from legalizing drugs wouldn't match the amount of pressure put NHS, and while this might not apply to other nations, they would still kill the health.

As for Prositution, it's either much-harder-to-get-then-gun-licienses or a complete ban.

There is no such thing as a victimless crimes!Are you saying that crime, by definition invovles one person victumising another. If there were a law disallowing the wearing of hats, would you argue that there is a victum who suffers because of everyone who violated it?

Sure, there would be a black market of hat traders, and there would be gang wars over which gang would get to sell hats to people desprate for something to cover their bald spots with, but would those hat wearers really be the ones victumising people?

This is the drug trade. It's dangerous because it's illegal, not illegal because it's dangerous.

After reading the first couple posts, I can quite appalled. Legalizing Drugs?! DRUGS KILL!

Drugs save tens of millions of lives every year. The overwhelming majority of humans who have used drugs have benefitted from their use. Of those who have not benefitted, the overwhelming majority are left in a "neutral" situation, neither better off nor worse than if they had not used the drugs. Only a very small fraction of humans who use drugs experience a net decrease in their well-being.

Also, you assume that death-by-drugs is a bad thing. In many cases, it is not.


There is no such thing as a victimless crimes!

In my state, it is currently a crime to hang men's and women's underwear on the same clothes line. Please explain who is the victim of this crime.

The Tax created from legalizing drugs wouldn't match the amount of pressure put NHS, and while this might not apply to other nations, they would still kill the health.

There is substantial evidence supporting the idea that legalization of currently-illegal substances will reduce the drug-related health crises facing America. Evidence suggests that drug overdose, negative effects due to poor quality and/or purity, and negative effects due to drug interactions willl all be reduced by many orders of magnitude if illegal drugs are legalized and regulated.


As for Prositution, it's either much-harder-to-get-then-gun-licienses or a complete ban.
Both of these situations will result in poorer conditions for prostitutes, while having little to no impact on the number of individuals who seek out and receive services from prostitutes. If you are concerned with reducing the suffering of sex workers, you should reconsider your stance.

as i have said for years now, i bleive prostitution should be ran by the government, all whores should be government employees (as of now only half the whores are government employees) it would start off like at the DMV where you would have to take a ticket and wait in line for a while, then if you apply when your 13 you would be next in line at 18
you just got that off an issue from NATIONSTATES:upyours:

They shoudl be legalized, taxed, regulated, and given pensions.

yah that wasn't directed at you, it was to someones earlier comment back on page 3 to my original post. it seems to be habit of people that when you start giving statistics, they think you made them up.. as if things aren't really happening that way. i used to think drugs and prostitution should all be legalized.. but when i started reading mor into it .. books from reputable sources about things that were happening in the legalized field of prostitution and with drugs.. it made me change my mind.. yes amsterdam has a red-light district.. but do you really know what happens to those girls? or what happens to the views of the government when those things are legal? how mind-set is altered? i'm not saying that men do not get victimised.. but women do get victimised a lot more.. and women are villified as well... i will point to a recent event that was published by CNN (if i can find the link to the story i will post it.. found it on fark a while back) a Judge in Italy cleard a man of all charged that were brought upon him for raping his step-daughter because .. the man in question said " she couldn't have been hurt by this seeing as she was not a virgin" basically saying that because she had been sexually active before that she was used to that kind of act.. so therefore no trauma could have taken place.. also in Italy a woman who wears short skirts cannot be raped (ie she was asking for it) when women are viewed as objects.. that is when we believe that sex (in any form.. rape.. molestation.. prostitution) is victimless.

they are victims. be it societal or monetary.. they are victims. bullied into believing that they aren't good for anything other than spreading thier legs.


So, you give an example of the way women are treated by the legal system in a country where prostitution isn't legal (there's no punishment for it, as far as I know, but it is in fact illegal) and state that legalising prostitution would be bad for the legal and social standing of women?
Rape in the Netherlands is punished more severly than rape in Italy, not the other way around. Legally recognising prostitution served to give women more rights, not less. Legal or not, prostitution isn't called "the world's oldest trade" because it just sprang up overnight. It has always existed, and it will always exist. Outlawing it does not help anybody involved, all it does is giving bigots a clear conscience by criminalising the victims. Oh, those bad and evil and morally corrupt women! :rolleyes:

Legalising it and providing women in the trade with the option to have their rights enforced, on the other hand, will help the "victims". It's a way to make sure that they are not powerless in that trade, that they have the right to legal protection, it will make them full members of society again. But, oh noes, we can't do that. How immoral! :rolleyes:

After reading the first couple posts, I can quite appalled. Legalizing Drugs?! DRUGS KILL! There is no such thing as a victimless crimes! The Tax created from legalizing drugs wouldn't match the amount of pressure put NHS, and while this might not apply to other nations, they would still kill the health.

As for Prositution, it's either much-harder-to-get-then-gun-licienses or a complete ban.

You know, cars kill more people than drugs. Guns kill more people than drugs. I suggest we outlaw them, too.