NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4882420.stm

So, what do you think? Has Judas been in an excessively negative light?

I have always thought that the whole Judas thing was a bit offkey. If Judas was intstamental in Christ death then surley that was Gods plan?

Heh as I'm likely to say 'God done that'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4882420.stm

So, what do you think? Has Judas been in an excessively negative light?

Yep. I always felt sorry for Judas.

maybe maybe not, although its hard to get a truely objective point of view, i guess. I think there should more attention to what the mission of Christ was rather than if Judas was or was not the evil apostle. It makes an interesting show though.

Well, if you accept the whole Jesus as Christ concept, then the Gnostic position is very logical. Jesus had to die on the cross in order to fulfill his purpose, and Judas was the instrument of his delivery unto the Romans, who did the deed.

Thus, from a certain point of view, Judas' betrayal was a holy act.

Being an Atheist myself, the argument is an entirely academic one. But there is a certain sensibility to that position.

Being an Atheist myself, the argument is an entirely academic one. But there is a certain sensibility to that position.

Not to mention that his betrayal makes no sense. I mean, he travelled with Jesus, so he saw all the miracles and heard all the sermons. And then he decided "You know what, I think I'll betray this guy for a measly 40 pieces of silver".

Yeah, Judas was part of the plan. It's a pretty weird plan, and kind of roundabout, but if you believe there -is- a plan, he was most certainly part of it.

Not to mention that his betrayal makes no sense. I mean, he travelled with Jesus, so he saw all the miracles and heard all the sermons. And then he decided "You know what, I think I'll betray this guy for a measly 40 pieces of silver".
Judas' betrayal (like all of the New Testament) is designed based on heresay, parable and myth. In this case, it shows a man throwing away Heaven for (small) wordly gain, and then being made miserable for it.

Not to mention that his betrayal makes no sense. I mean, he travelled with Jesus, so he saw all the miracles and heard all the sermons. And then he decided "You know what, I think I'll betray this guy for a measly 40 pieces of silver".

That was a lot back then though.

You could probably get yourself a high end racing donkey with it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4882420.stm

So, what do you think? Has Judas been in an excessively negative light?

well obviously i take anything in the bible with a pinch of salt anyway but i always thought it was pretty unlikely that anyone could be as much of a wanker as judas is portrayed. 'specially since jesus apparently knew he was gunna do it before judas 'betrayed' him. that smells like a plan to me.

im not any more fond of "god made me do it" than i am of "the devil made me do it"

that it finished god's plan in no way means that it wasnt utterly judas's decision to betray jesus. he probably didnt do it for the 40 pieces of silver, if he was that kind of guy he could skim the donations just like people do today. it would have added up to way more money in the end.

he may have done it because he was afraid of being arrested himself, he may have done it because he felt betrayed by jesus not being the guy who was going to overthrow rome, he could have had other reasons.

i dont find it credible to suggest that he became god's puppet and did something entirely out of character or that he conspired with jesus to get to the crucifixion part.

Like all the other Gospels it almost certainly wasn't written by a Disciple but it should be an interesting read nonetheless.

Personally I think Judas was a stereotypical jewish caricature (always portrayed with a hooked nose, the treasurer of the disciples, greed was his downfall) who was added to the story later to fuel anti-semitism and shift the blame for Jesus's death away from the gentiles.

well obviously i take anything in the bible with a pinch of salt anyway but i always thought it was pretty unlikely that anyone could be as much of a wanker as judas is portrayed. 'specially since jesus apparently knew he was gunna do it before judas 'betrayed' him. that smells like a plan to me.

The story seems a bit suspect to me anyway, why would Judas need to identify Jesus? This is a man who rode into the city like a king only a few days earlier, everyone would have recognised him on sight.

The story seems a bit suspect to me anyway, why would Judas need to identify Jesus? This is a man who rode into the city like a king only a few days earlier, everyone would have recognised him on sight.
The attack happened at night, so spotting Jesus out among his fellows at a distance would have been difficult. So, they'd either have to use Judas to point out the one (by getting close enough to check), or they'd have to arrest everybody and check them one by one.

The attack happened at night, so spotting Jesus out among his fellows at a distance would have been difficult. So, they'd either have to use Judas to point out the one (by getting close enough to check), or they'd have to arrest everybody and check them one by one.

At a distance certainly but I presume that once they actually reached the group it would be fairly evident.

At a distance certainly but I presume that once they actually reached the group it would be fairly evident.

"It's the guy with the halo, right?"

At a distance certainly but I presume that once they actually reached the group it would be fairly evident.
But Romans don't roll that way, man. They like to know the whole way things are going long in advance, why else do you think their dramas were so repetitive and predictable?

"It's the guy with the halo, right?"

LMAO!!! :p

But Romans don't roll that way, man. They like to know the whole way things are going long in advance, why else do you think their dramas were so repetitive and predictable?

If we're allowed to use racial stereotypes in debate then the story doesn't make sense because the jewish priests didn't accept the money when Judas tried to give it back.;) [/stereotyping]

Every day, I ask myself: What Would Judas Do?

If we're allowed to use racial stereotypes in debate then the story doesn't make sense because the jewish priests didn't accept the money when Judas tried to give it back.;) [/stereotyping]
But, then how did the Romans catch Jesus in the first place? As a black man, shouldn't he have been packing heat?

link (http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/index.html)

You can find the NG page about the Gospel of Judas here, there are a few sample pages in english but unless you can read coptic you'll have to wait for the translation.

But, then how did the Romans catch Jesus in the first place? As a black man, shouldn't he have been packing heat?

A black man? Now you really have lost me. :confused:

A black man? Now you really have lost me. :confused:
You've never heard of the Church of Black Jesus? There's a street preacher who is quit fond of him down the street from where I live, and he always make sure to tell me that Blacks are the chosen people to rule the world, and all White people are going to be enslaved for a thousand years.

I <3 the Bronx

A black man? Now you really have lost me. :confused:

Me too... Jesus wasn't african. He wasn't anglo-saxon either, he would be arabic-looking (if he actually existed (which he didn't (exist, that is)))

Time to roll this out again, I see:

Stand Up For Judas



Chorus:
So stand up, stand up for Judas and the cause that Judas served
It was Jesus who betrayed the poor with his word

The Romans were the masters when Jesus walked the land
In Judea and in Galilee they ruled with an iron hand
And the poor were sick with hunger and the rich were clothed in splendour
And the rebels whipped and crucified hung rotting as a warning
And Jesus knew the answer
Said, Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, said, Love your enemies
But Judas was a Zealot and he wanted to be free
Resist, he said, The Romans' tyranny

Jesus was a conjuror, miracles were his game
And he fed the hungry thousands and they glorified his name
He cured the lame and the lepers, he calmed the wind and the weather
And the wretched flocked to touch him so their troubles would be taken
And Jesus knew the answer
All you who labour, all you who suffer only believe in me
But Judas sought a world where no one starved or begged for bread
The poor are always with us, Jesus said

Now Jesus brought division where none had been before
Not the slaves against their masters but the poor against the poor
Set son to rise up against father, and brother to fight against brother
For he that is not with me is against me, was his teaching
Said Jesus, I am the answer
You unbelievers shall burn forever, shall die in your sins
Not sheep and goats, said Judas, But together we may dare
Shake off the chains of misery we share

Jesus stood upon the mountain with a distance in his eyes
I am the way, the life, he cried, The light that never dies
So renounce all earthly treasures and pray to your heavenly father
And he pacified the hopeless with the hope of life eternal
Said Jesus, I am the answer
And you who hunger only remember your reward's in Heaven
So Jesus preached the other world but Judas wanted this
And he betrayed his master with a kiss

By sword and gun and crucifix Christ's gospel has been spread
And 2.000 cruel years have shown the way that Jesus led
The heretics burned and tortured, and the butchering, bloody crusaders
The bombs and rockets sanctified that rain down death from heaven
They followed Jesus, they knew the answer
All non-believers must be believers or else be broken
So put no trust in Saviours, Judas said, For everyone
Must be to his or her own self - a sun

Meh, it's all ripped off from pagan myths anyways, what does it matter?

You've never heard of the Church of Black Jesus? There's a street preacher who is quit fond of him down the street from where I live, and he always make sure to tell me that Blacks are the chosen people to rule the world, and all White people are going to be enslaved for a thousand years.

I <3 the Bronx

A five percenter?

Meh, it's all ripped off from pagan myths anyways, what does it matter?

Well, it doesn't, really, but it's of some academic interest, and I dare say it might matter to religious folk.

A five percenter?
Nah, he's not that crazy. He's sort of like the Christian equivalent though.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4882420.stm

So, what do you think? Has Judas been in an excessively negative light?
Kewl. So when can we expect 'The Bible: Bigger, Longer and Uncut!'?

Oh, and yeah, he almost certainly got the raw end of the deal.

The story seems a bit suspect to me anyway, why would Judas need to identify Jesus? This is a man who rode into the city like a king only a few days earlier, everyone would have recognised him on sight.

that too. had forgotten about that, it's even more tricky to explain than judas's unlikely wankerishness (that is a word i tell you)

You've never heard of the Church of Black Jesus? There's a street preacher who is quit fond of him down the street from where I live, and he always make sure to tell me that Blacks are the chosen people to rule the world, and all White people are going to be enslaved for a thousand years.

I <3 the Bronx

Ah yes, there was a nutter like that on the MySpace forums a while ago.

As I understand it their belief stems from a single verse in Revelation which describes Jesus's hair as 'white like wool'. Rather than taking 'wool' to be a reference to white hair they claim it's refering to an afro. :rolleyes:

So, what do you think? Has Judas been in an excessively negative light?

Others have said enough about possible motives beyond the silver pieces, but in regards to this 'lost book rediscovered,' when they say 'authenticated' they mean authenticating it's age to the second century (shortly after or well after the canon gospels were penned).

As to this book though, it appears as if the Gospel of Judas has pretty much always been on the ‘heresy heretics’ list, even since the second century (hundreds of years before the council of Nicea), when St. Irenaeus, priest at the church of Lyons wrote a book called the Adversus Haereses:

(Book I, Chapter 31)
Others again declare that Cain derived his being from the Power above, and acknowledge that Esau, Korah, the Sodomites, and all such persons, are related to themselves. On this account, they add, they have been assailed by the Creator, yet no one of them has suffered injury. For Sophia was in the habit of carrying off that which belonged to her from them to herself. They declare that Judas the traitor was thoroughly acquainted with these things, and that he alone, knowing the truth as no others did, accomplished the mystery of the betrayal; by him all things, both earthly and heavenly, were thus thrown into confusion. They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103131.htm

I wouldn’t put much effort/faith into studying this lost-gospel, although I very much like reading them as a rule of thumb.

Didn't Andrew Lloyd Webber settle this question about 35 years ago?

Kewl. So when can we expect 'The Bible: Bigger, Longer and Uncut!'?

Oh, and yeah, he almost certainly got the raw end of the deal.

'With verses which were just too hot for the cinema...' :eek:

Didn't Andrew Lloyd Webber settle this question about 35 years ago?

Yes but there was a scism over whether Jesus was a bass or an alto.

Jesus seems to have been a regular looking guy. That or incredibly short... (read the story of Zaccheus, it's a tad ambiguous :D).

So Judas would probably have to identify him to Roman troops who had never seen him before.

Remember, there were a lot of 'false Christs' hanging around at that point, hell the Romans even interpreted the prophecy as referring to Vespasian (well after the events but still...)

Kewl. So when can we expect 'The Bible: Bigger, Longer and Uncut!'?

Oh, and yeah, he almost certainly got the raw end of the deal.
"And on the 8th day, God created Chuck Norris and saw that it was good. Chuck Noreth hateth birthdays and roudhouse kicked the 8th day into oblivion and reduced the week to 7 days. So sayeth the Lord, our God. Amen."

Kewl. So when can we expect 'The Bible: Bigger, Longer and Uncut!'?

Oh, and yeah, he almost certainly got the raw end of the deal.

I'm sorry, it's probably terribly bad of me, but I find this incredibly amusing. :D

There were at least 30 gospels in the beginning. Several Popes had several committees choose which to make cannon. The decisions were rather arbitrary. Literalists seldom have studied how the Bible was put together.

Jesus said the conservative religious leaders had killed all of the prophets and they would kill him also.

Any reading of the Bible would give full forgiveness to Pilate and a little sympathy (not forgivness) to Judas.

I never thought Judas was as evil as he is made out to be. He fulfilled a necessary purpose, and if he didn't do it someone else would have had to. Bashing him because God literally created him to do it is kind of, well, stupid.

Then Judas is all like "Oh shit, I fucked up" and goes super-angsty teen depressed and kills himself anyway.

If I recall.

Yes but there was a scism over whether Jesus was a bass or an alto.
With arguments you can hum in the shower.

Time to roll this out again, I see: <long ass song>

You lost me at the bit about Jesus's sword.

You lost me at the bit about Jesus's sword.

"By sword and gun and crucifix Christ's gospel has been spread"?

Pretty self-explanatory, I would have thought, and pretty damn indisputable too.

Ah yes, there was a nutter like that on the MySpace forums a while ago.

As I understand it their belief stems from a single verse in Revelation which describes Jesus's hair as 'white like wool'. Rather than taking 'wool' to be a reference to white hair they claim it's refering to an afro. :rolleyes:
It's a good thing that Revelation clearly states itself as "a vision" and it didn't really have any more to do with the "living Jesus" than did the vision part about him atop a steed in a long flowing blood-edged white robe with a giant sword coming out of his mouth, mowing everyone down.
As stated, just a vision.

Then Judas is all like "Oh shit, I fucked up" and goes super-angsty teen depressed and kills himself anyway.

If I recall.

This is why the Book Of Judas matters most as Judas recognized Jesus's divinity without the need for resurrection. So in that light he would be the first apostle to see the end game.

Me too... Jesus wasn't african. He wasn't anglo-saxon either, he would be arabic-looking (if he actually existed (which he didn't (exist, that is)))
No way could he have been Anglo Saxon, there was no such thing in those days. He was a Celt, it is well known that Jesus came to Britain with his Uncle joseph of Aramathea (WHO WAS A PROCURATOR FOR TIN) and learned a lot of his wisdom from the Druids. Ever heard of the song "Jerusulam" with the words "And did those feet in ancient times" A lot of people dont know that the Holy Land is Really Britain, which is where Jesus wanted his heart to be buried.
Anyway i had to clear some of this up, I could ramble on for hours about this, but at risk of boring everyone I had better stop

As for Judas, Jesus told him to tell the Romans where he was as this was his plan, and as for pointing him out, there was a lack of glossy 8" x 10" colour glossy photographs in those days, so the newspapers (Which also didnt exist, Another British invention) Could not print his picture.
Have a nice day
Culculun

Judas was the original emo. What more do we need to know?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4882420.stm

So, what do you think? Has Judas been in an excessively negative light?
Judas was a dragon king and disciple of christ who jesus cast down into blindness after he was resurected for taking violent vengeance for his murder, contrary to his teachings. He was doomed to have his true deeds forgotten and wander the earth blind and infamous until christ forgave him.

Such is the way of cross and dragon.

Judas was a dragon king and disciple of christ who jesus cast down into blindness after he was resurected for taking violent vengeance for his murder, contrary to his teachings. He was doomed to have his true deeds forgotten and wander the earth blind and infamous until christ forgave him.

Such is the way of cross and dragon.

Your branch of Christianity seems somewhat crazy. Hooray for you!

Your branch of Christianity seems somewhat crazy. Hooray for you!
Actually, it's hooray for obscure sci-fi short stories published in the eighties.

No way could he have been Anglo Saxon, there was no such thing in those days. He was a Celt, it is well known that Jesus came to Britain with his Uncle joseph of Aramathea (WHO WAS A PROCURATOR FOR TIN) and learned a lot of his wisdom from the Druids. Ever heard of the song "Jerusulam" with the words "And did those feet in ancient times" A lot of people dont know that the Holy Land is Really Britain, which is where Jesus wanted his heart to be buried.
Anyway i had to clear some of this up, I could ramble on for hours about this, but at risk of boring everyone I had better stop

As for Judas, Jesus told him to tell the Romans where he was as this was his plan, and as for pointing him out, there was a lack of glossy 8" x 10" colour glossy photographs in those days, so the newspapers (Which also didnt exist, Another British invention) Could not print his picture.
Have a nice day
Culculun

Okay, it didnt wind anyone up with me inferring Jesus may have been a Druid. I must try harder next time!!