NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/8439483/detail.html
Basically, whats going on is that a school is San Diego was having so much trouble with immigrant people acting in a hostile manner towards American flags, they decided to ban all flags and patriotic clothing!

Wtf, why are we catering to a bunch of fucking immigrants who tear up American flags and fly Mexican flags.

I am patiently waiting for the straw that breaks the camels back.....

How do you propose we go about solving the problems our immigrants from the South are causing?

My idea:

1) Encourage violent patriotism
2) Create two sides
3) Instigate hostility
4) Watch them revome themselve from genepool
5) Collect Underpants
6) ?
7) Profit

My idea:

1) Encourage violent patriotism
2) Create two sides
3) Instigate hostility
4) Watch them revome themselve from genepool
5) Collect Underpants
6) ?
7) Profit
Sell in Japan?

How do you propose we go about solving the problems our immigrants from the South are causing?
We must implement... Ze Final Solution!

Okay, I officially suck at 1940s German accents.

My idea:

1) Encourage violent patriotism
2) Create two sides
3) Instigate hostility
4) Watch them revome themselve from genepool
5) Collect Underpants
6) ?
7) Profit
Time to go to work! Work all night!
Search for underpants hey!
We won't stop until we have underpants!
Yum tum yummy tum hey!

How do you propose we go about solving the problems our immigrants from the South are causing?

stop people (largely from areas that don't even have significant immigrant populations) from being such racist dicks?

stop people (largely from areas that don't even have significant immigrant populations) from being such racist dicks?

Much better idea than banning flags and clothing.

Much better idea than banning flags and clothing.
How about banning racists? There has to be at least 11 million of those we could send into exile...

How about banning racists? There has to be at least 11 million of those we could send into exile...
Sounds good. But how do we profit?

stop people (largely from areas that don't even have significant immigrant populations) from being such racist dicks?

Ugh, first....I'm talking about a problem immigrants are causing....why do you have to hijack the thread and accuse me of being racist.

Second....where the hell do you get the fact that where I'm from doesnt have significant immigrant populations!?

look at the location...Southern California....South Florida...possibly the two most immigrant filled places in America.

Unless that wasnt intended towards me, then nevermind. :p

Sounds good. But how do we profit?
Lets make them do some cheap labor for us first.

(largely from areas that don't even have significant immigrant populations)

btw, did everybody see this (http://www.ailf.org/ipc/policybrief/policybrief_2006_playingpolitics.shtml)?

We must implement... Ze Final Solution!

Okay, I officially suck at 1940s German accents.

I didnt say the "immigrant problem"...I said the "problems the immigrants are causing"....theres a HUGE difference.

Lets make them do some cheap labor for us first.
Like how the Nazi's did?

Brilliant!

Unless that wasnt intended towards me, then nevermind. :p

nah, not at you. more at the general place from where this entire 'issue' comes from.

nah, not at you. more at the general place from where this entire 'issue' comes from.

Right...so do you deny that immigrants are causing problems....and do you really believe that its just us "racists" getting all worked up about nothing.

It's seemingly a temporary ban in order to maintain discipline on the campus.

Actually it strikes me as quite sensible. Especially in todays irrational no-one takes responsiblity for their own actions society. I have no doubt that if major fights broke out in the school and such an action hadn't been taken there would have been plenty of witless politicians standing on the sidelines pointing fingers at the school administration's "lack of action" &c.

School kids should be subject to strict dress codes anyway. It'll help them prepare for their lives of low paid corporate dullbobbery. That goes double for colleges.

I am against all frivolous restrictions on free speech.

Like how the Nazi's did?

Brilliant!
It all comes full circle, my friend.

Right...so do you deny that immigrants are causing problems....and do you really believe that its just us "racists" getting all worked up about nothing.
It's not one sided.

Right...so do you deny that immigrants are causing problems....and do you really believe that its just us "racists" getting all worked up about nothing.

i don't believe it's the immigrants that are trying to declare a significant segment of the population to be felons

yep, patriotism is silly. having said that, generally im against banning pretty much anything, so i'd like to retract my vote and say that patriotism should never have been brought into schools in the first place.

I'm no fan of patriotism, but this is a vile abuse of free speech. Perhaps, instead, they could ether A) Raise punishment for violence until things die down or B) Try to give students a way to express their opinions without turning to violence.

I'm bothered by Mexicans parading down American streets waving Mexican flags. It seems almost like they're trying to undermine support for illegal immigrants. I have no problem with showing pride for their former country, but it strikes me that this is probably neither the most tactful nor the most persuasive way of standing up for themselves.

How about we trick a bunch of Racists to go into an immigrant city and burn Mexican flags. The Immigrants will kill them, and we'll have no choice but to arrest and deport them... And we'll lose some Racists in the process. Win\Win.

I'm bothered by Mexicans parading down American streets waving Mexican flags. It seems almost like they're trying to undermine support for illegal immigrants. I have no problem with showing pride for their former country, but it strikes me that this is probably neither the most tactful nor the most persuasive way of standing up for themselves.

what is one to make of the fact that bush himself has held a mexican flag in campaign ads?

it only matters now cause racists and nazis (with the aid of their mainstream enablers) have been deliberately poisoning the discourse

If the United States had just refraimed from annexing half of Mexico in the mid 1800s, San Diego would be mexican, and you wouldn't have that problem.

How do you propose we go about solving the problems our immigrants from the South are causing?

Once we stop misdiagnosing the problem then we will be alot better off.

Lets make them do some cheap labor for us first.

well they are the ones disrespecting our culture to the point of flying there flags here..and not trying to even bother to learn the native language(please dont say indian)as any sensible person that wants to assimilate and take advantage of another societies benefits should,i know i would not go to germany,exspect to live there,collect welfare,have the german taxpayers school and feed and maintain my kids health..and not bother to learn german,let alone fly an american flag on my car..and basically feel the germans owe me anything?
and not pay into the system all the while exspecting a free ride..then get all pissed when they get a bit miffed at me for using them.

if so...book me on the next flight to europe...i wont provide any documentation that i am who i say i am,and that i am not a violent crimminal gang member...but hey...whats good for the goose..eh?

please send my benefits to me,i will be bringing my kids to the hospital shortly to be treated for the sniffles(at about a 1000.00 dollars a pop) for each...but you can pay...no problem.

oh,and give me a licence to drive also...but dont get mad if i give you forged documents...as i did not come here legally and cant prove my identity.or the fact that i am a habitual offender at home...if you give me lots of free stuff..i promise i will behave...and i will cut my ties with my violent gang friends.

now of coarse that was a sarcastic exxageration and a stereotypical/xenophobic comment....but it does reflect some of the reality here.

i would say 90% of illegal immigrants here are decent law abiding folks.
i know quite a few to be honest.
i actually am friends with quite a few of them...and even though our cultures are very dissimilar..i get on with them pretty good.

that said...what i said still stands...i go to the hospital(i have no insurance for myself or kids)i get slammed with a huge bill...they just give a fake id and walk away...not fair to the taxpayer..period

i pay property taxes to support the local school....they dont and their kids go there also.

and thats the majority of good ,decent illegals i have direct exsperiance with...and i feel bad for them..but at the same time..my taxes are double,my med bills are ridiculous,i am a single parent and i am rich by no stretch.

so what is everyones solution to that?
then throw in the not inconsequential crime and gang shit...

also the fact they are being exploited by their employers.at their exspence and mine.

i live in a resort town...and i see alot of irish and russians here for work...but they came here legally..is it fair for them to pay taxes and go thru the legal process..and for the latins from all over south america dont?

i have zero bitterness or any kind of axe to grind with latinos...none..thats why i support a guest worker program with a chance for permanent status.

i just find it unfair to me as a taxpayer,unfair to people that immigrate legally,and also a threat to our national security.

say what you want...but i find it hard to argue with my observations,as i see it first hand everyday.

i could be wrong...but would you pay double for your med/taxes/schools/law enforcement so a select group can be in your country illegaly and others follow the rules and abide by your nations laws?

it is unfair to the extreme to other immigrants...and that's not even mentioning the gang problem!

i have no problem with immigrants..none at all...just do it according to the laws.:headbang:


p.s.
possible sarcasm alert..to the poster i responded too...we should have the illegals build the wall..then say..hey..go over by that cactus so we can take a group picture...then shut the door...lol

If the United States had just refraimed from annexing half of Mexico in the mid 1800s, San Diego would be mexican, and you wouldn't have that problem.

That is an opinion I am getting a little sick of.

Once we stop misdiagnosing the problem then we will be alot better off.

that's crazy talk

btw, did everybody see this (http://www.ailf.org/ipc/policybrief/policybrief_2006_playingpolitics.shtml)?

Tolbert and Hero (1996) pointed out similar phenomena concerning Latino populations in the context of Proposition 187 in California:


Proposition 187 appears to be one of a series of policies adopted through the initiative process in "bifurcated" racial/ethnic contexts. These findings directly parallel and reinforce those of a state level analysis of racial/ethnic diversity. Although voter approval was expected to increase with the size of the Latino population, the relationship was more complex. Support for the Proposition was high in bifurcated counties, with above average Latino populations and a dominant white population. Surprisingly, support for the policy was also very strong in homogeneous counties with very small minority populations. Previous research on race and public policy in the states does not anticipate nor explain the dynamics of race/ethnicity in homogeneous contexts. The lowest support occurred in racially heterogeneous counties with sizable black and Asian populations. These patterns are consistent with state-level findings examining the impact of racial/ethnic diversity on various policy outcomes. (Emphasis added)

Tolbert, C. J., & Hero, R. E. (1996). Race/ethnicity and direct democracy: An analysis of California's illegal immigration initiative. The Journal of Politics, 58(3), 806-818.

This article from alif.org (http://www.ailf.org/ipc/policybrief/policybrief_2006_playingpolitics.shtml), however, was written by an author with an obvious agenda and bias. Mr. Paral seems to think that those who voted for H.R. 4437 were motovated by "political posturing" instead of an informed stand, while those who voted against did so because they are "familiar with undocumented immigrants" and the issue at hand. The evidence that Mr. Paral presents does not necessarily support these conclusions. The only evidence that Mr. Paral presents, in fact, is the apparent corelation between illegal immigrant population and position on H.R. 4437. Of course, simple corelation does not necessarily indicate causation.

For instance, I can just as easily conclude that those who did not support H.R. 4437 were simply pandering to, or engaging in "political posturing" toward, the large immigrant (legal or illegal) populations in their respective districts. I would assume that areas with high immigrant populations also tend to be areas that are racially heterogeneous. As Tolbert and Hero show, racially heterogeneous electorates (voters) tended to more strongly oppose Proposition 187. Naturally, a congressmember has an interest in representing the demands of voters in his/her constituency in order to maintain office. In the case of racially heterogeneous areas, this would mean opposing (edit: legislation similar in nature and purpose to Proposition 187). Thus, opposition (edit: to H.R. 4437) could simply be based on keeping one's constituency happy in order to stay in office, and not necessarily on any particular knowledge of, familiarity with, or position on the illegal immigration issue itself.

As far as I can tell, the evidence Mr. Parel presents does not necessarily defend his claim that those who voted against H.R. 4437 are "familiar with undocumented immigrants" or the illegal immigration issue beyond simple electoral concerns. If anything, the evidence shows that those who opposed H.R. 4437 are just as capable of playing politics and promoting a "public image" as those who voted in favor.

what is one to make of the fact that bush himself has held a mexican flag in campaign ads?

it only matters now cause racists and nazis (with the aid of their mainstream enablers) have been deliberately poisoning the discourse


I can't claim to be an expert on the topic at all, but I suffer from a level enough head to realize that with changing times come a need for changing attack strategies. At this point, the worst thing that Mexicans in the US can do is heighten worries of anti-US sentiment and strengthen racist steriotypes. The best, most strategically clever thing to do right now is to present an intelligent, calm rebuttal to racist arguments that completely undermines the steriotypes they rest upon.

what is one to make of the fact that bush himself has held a mexican flag in campaign ads?
Uhh, he wanted hispanic votes?

it only matters now cause racists and nazis (with the aid of their mainstream enablers) have been deliberately poisoning the discourse

Thanks for pointing out my racist attitude that demands people adhere to the law. Please make sure to remind me that the next time I object to illegal activity that the criminal gets a pass because of his/her race and national origin and that requiring that people obey the law is "poisioning the discourse." The very idea that everyone is equal under the law is clearly ludicrous since clearly mexicans are more equal than others and have a right to enter this country without obeying the immigration laws. What the fuck was I thinking?


:upyours:

If the United States had just refraimed from annexing half of Mexico in the mid 1800s, San Diego would be mexican, and you wouldn't have that problem.

Yes than California would be the shit hole Mexico is now and Oregon and Washington would be getting flooded with illegals.

I can't claim to be an expert on the topic at all, but I suffer from a level enough head to realize that with changing times come a need for changing attack strategies. At this point, the worst thing that Mexicans in the US can do is heighten worries of anti-US sentiment and strengthen racist steriotypes. The best, most strategically clever thing to do right now is to present an intelligent, calm rebuttal to racist arguments that completely undermines the steriotypes they rest upon.

I would add one more thing - denounce those who deliberately violate the law in order to enter the country and praise those who enter it properly. It is not racist to demand that people obey the law.

Yes than California would be the shit hole Mexico is now and Oregon and Washington would be getting flooded with illegals.

That is quite debatable, seeing as how the portion of Mexico stolen from Mexico would have provided wonderful farmland, a gold rush, significantly more space, and the eventual success of the Sun belt. In many ways, America would have much less power without that part of the west, and Mexico would likely have become significantly more powerful.

Mexico's government may not be doing much to help it's people, but they haven't had an easy situation to deal with either.

I would add one more thing - denounce those who deliberately violate the law in order to enter the country and praise those who enter it properly. It is not racist to demand that people obey the law.

Were it not true that existing immigration law is racist and xenophobic in nature (rather than protective, as some racists may try to tell you), you would be correct. However, rather than protecting people, the existing laws serve to keep out people we don't want for racist reasons. For that reason, supporting existing immigration law is racist.

Sie denken, dass wir nicht verstehen. Sie denken, dass wir nicht nicht uns sorgen. Aber wir verstehen, und wir sorgen uns mehr als sie denken. Wir sind Patrioten. Leute, die kämpfen, für was gut ist. Leute, die kämpfen, für was für unser Land ist. Ich spreche von Nationalismus, und ich bin stolz, ein Amerikaner zu sein,. Sie sind der U-Bootmensch, der U-Bootnennwert rennt das bewohnt unser Land. Wir müssen uns von ihrem ungerechtfertigten Schmutz reinigen. Unsere einzige Wahl; die Endgültige Lösung. Erst werden wir zusammen den faggots und die Deiche, das geistig benachteiligt, und das schwächlich unfähige sammeln. Sie werden in Lager geworfen werden, wo ihr Schmutz unsere Augen wieder nicht sehen wird. Sie werden weg geworfen werden und wir müssen nie sie wieder sehen. Dann werfen wir in den Juden, der Niggers, die Neigungsaugen, die nassen Rückseiten, und anderes Schmutzrennen die ich dürfte vergessen haben, die Lager, die schon von jenen die gereinigt worden sind, sind unbestreitbar. Dann werden unsere Leute von den unerwünschten Rennen gereinigt werden. Wir werden frei sein. Zweit werden wir aus von unseren Heimen abschießen, die diese Erde vom unnatürlichen, dem Un-desirables, und die Un-perfekt reinigen. Diese Erde wird sauber von den Unvollkommenheiten sein, die uns Krieg unter uns für so lang gemacht haben. Wir werden überlegen sein und wir werden sauber sein.

That is quite debatable, seeing as how the portion of Mexico stolen from Mexico would have provided wonderful farmland, a gold rush, significantly more space, and the eventual success of the Sun belt. In many ways, America would have much less power without that part of the west, and Mexico would likely have become significantly more powerful.

Mexico's government may not be doing much to help it's people, but they haven't had an easy situation to deal with either.

Mexico has a huge amount of resources already it would not matter how much land was given to Mexico it would still be a shit hole none the less because of their corrupt government.

It is not racist to demand that people obey the law.

edit: Perhaps.

However, it is not necessarily true that a law applied equally to all people regardless of race or ethnicity will have an equal effect on all people regardless of race or ethnicity. For instance, fees and application processes involved in legal immigration present serious barriers to those with little education or economic means. This is an especially serious problem among Mexican immigrants. The solution, of course, is not to completely throw out immigration law or begin to apply immigration law unequally among different populations. A solution to the problem is to encourage educational and economic development and opportunity among immigrant populations in order to encourage nationalization, citizenship and legal immigration. Legislation that discourages consumption of public services like education (Proposition 187) and that criminalizes and punishes entire populations (H.R. 4437) will not serve this purpose. In fact, I would posit that the only thing legislation like H.R. 4437 will achieve will be to further push immigration into the criminal underground, increasing the danger to immigrants and worsening educational and economic conditions among immigrants, thereby further discouraging naturalization, citizenship, and legal immigration.

That is quite debatable, seeing as how the portion of Mexico stolen from Mexico would have provided wonderful farmland, a gold rush, significantly more space, and the eventual success of the Sun belt. In many ways, America would have much less power without that part of the west, and Mexico would likely have become significantly more powerful.

Mexico's government may not be doing much to help it's people, but they haven't had an easy situation to deal with either.

Wait a minute, we "stole" it from Mexico? Didn't we fight a war they lost? Is that stealing? If so, didn't we "steal" the U.S. from Britain? Why the hell aren't they demanding the right to enter the nation with no restrictions? Shouldn't we let them? Better yet, didn't we steal if from the Indians? What the fuck will the mexicans of spanish descent do when the Cherokee, Navahoes, Commachee, Cree, Inuit, Aztecs, Mayans, etc. demand they get out of their land?

Oh, as to the gold rush, well they've done well in modern times with the oil wealth they control haven't they? Good thing they have a resource worth alot of money like gold, they can make sure no one suffers and the need to illegally enter a country that has a better economic client is not non-existant.

------------------
<--pulling tongue from cheek - they entered illegally, it is not racist to say they should be kicked out and to claim we stole the land and so they have a right is a non-sequiter and an argument that has no merit IMHO.

Wait a minute, we "stole" it from Mexico? Didn't we fight a war they lost? Is that stealing? If so, didn't we "steal" the U.S. from Britain? Why the hell aren't they demanding the right to enter the nation with no restrictions? Shouldn't we let them? Better yet, didn't we steal if from the Indians? What the fuck will the mexicans of spanish descent do when the Cherokee, Navahoes, Commachee, Cree, Inuit, Aztecs, Mayans, etc. demand they get out of their land?

Oh, as to the gold rush, well they've done well in modern times with the oil wealth they control haven't they? Good thing they have a resource worth alot of money like gold, they can make sure no one suffers and the need to illegally enter a country that has a better economic client is not non-existant.

------------------
<--pulling tongue from cheek - they entered illegally, it is not racist to say they should be kicked out and to claim we stole the land and so they have a right is a non-sequiter and an argument that has no merit IMHO.

Did we have any good reason to go to war with Mexico? Were we fighting for human rights, democracy, or to protect American lives? Nope. We were fighting because of Manifest Destiny. If I walk up to you and menace you with a knife and take your money, does that mean I earned it and that it wasn't stealing? I don't honestly think that its a good argument that because we stole the land, they are justified in crossing the border illegally, but I think the status of our immigration law is a perfectly fine justification.

The whole fucking status of the Mexican government may not have been the same if it weren't for the Mexican American war. However, the point of what I was saying is that it is racist to assume that just because the nation is Mexico, and not the US, it would have become a shithole.

Thanks for pointing out my racist attitude that demands people adhere to the law. Please make sure to remind me that the next time I object to illegal activity that the criminal gets a pass because of his/her race and national origin and that requiring that people obey the law is "poisioning the discourse." The very idea that everyone is equal under the law is clearly ludicrous since clearly mexicans are more equal than others and have a right to enter this country without obeying the immigration laws. What the fuck was I thinking?

So you believe that all laws should be mindlessly followed?

Ev'rybody's a little racist, today!

Were it not true that existing immigration law is racist and xenophobic in nature (rather than protective, as some racists may try to tell you), you would be correct. However, rather than protecting people, the existing laws serve to keep out people we don't want for racist reasons. For that reason, supporting existing immigration law is racist.

I'd be willing to agree if you could tell me how existing law keeps out people for racist reasons. How does it "keep out people we don't want for racist reasons?" explain please. You say the law is racist, but do not explain how.

Am I a xenophobe or racist because I keep criminals out of my house? I don't think so. Why then is it racist to keep them out of my country? Is it racist or xenophobic to demand that my gardener or aupair prove they have a right to work before I hire them and send $ to the IRS withholding division? NO? Then why is it racist to demand a Mexican establish they have a right to work as well?

I'd be willing to agree if you could tell me how existing law keeps out people for racist reasons. How does it "keep out people we don't want for racist reasons?" explain please. You say the law is racist, but do not explain how.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10707477&postcount=40

edit: Perhaps.

However, it is not necessarily true that a law applied equally to all people regardless of race or ethnicity will have an equal effect on all people regardless of race or ethnicity. For instance, fees and application processes involved in legal immigration present serious barriers to those with little education or economic means. This is an especially serious problem among Mexican immigrants. The solution, of course, is not to completely throw out immigration law or begin to apply immigration law unequally among different populations. A solution to the problem is to encourage educational and economic development and opportunity among immigrant populations in order to encourage nationalization, citizenship and legal immigration. Legislation that discourages consumption of public services like education (Proposition 187) and that criminalizes and punishes entire populations (H.R. 4437) will not serve this purpose. In fact, I would posit that the only thing legislation like H.R. 4437 will achieve will be to further push immigration into the criminal underground, increasing the danger to immigrants and worsening educational and economic conditions among immigrants, thereby further discouraging naturalization, citizenship, and legal immigration.

Wow! A cogent and intelligent argument, thanks.

I won't argue that the lack of educational opportunity, etc. creates a disadvantage for some (many?) who want to enter the US legally, I agree with that idea. However, is a law "racist" because, even though neutral in intent, it has a disparate impact, or is that just merely a "fact of life?" Are US immigration laws racist because they affect mexicans more than anyone? or do they affect mexicans more than anyone because that is the largest groupt of people who violate them? If the latter, then the issue of racism is bogus and a cover up for law breakers.

I'd be willing to agree if you could tell me how existing law keeps out people for racist reasons. How does it "keep out people we don't want for racist reasons?" explain please. You say the law is racist, but do not explain how.

Am I a xenophobe or racist because I keep criminals out of my house? I don't think so. Why then is it racist to keep them out of my country? Is it racist or xenophobic to demand that my gardener or aupair prove they have a right to work before I hire them and send $ to the IRS withholding division? NO? Then why is it racist to demand a Mexican establish they have a right to work as well?

US Immigration is not fully open. We put a cap on the number of people entering a year. That is a blatantly xenophobic policy (which began in the late 19th and early 20th centurys as a way to keep the racial balance of the US). It isn't like everyone can walk up to an immigration office and have their background scanned and have citizenship. If that was the case, illegal immigrants would be in the wrong, but that is blatantly not the case.

The evidence that Mr. Paral presents does not necessarily support these conclusions. The only evidence that Mr. Paral presents, in fact, is the apparent corelation between illegal immigrant population and position on H.R. 4437. Of course, simple corelation does not necessarily indicate causation.

true enough - i find the corelation itself to be noteworthy.

though i am more than slightly sympathetic to the view that making millions of people into felons overnight and demanding mandatory sentencing for them is more grandstanding than a reasoned position.

So you believe that all laws should be mindlessly followed?

If it is the law it should be followed. If you believe the law is wrong, you should protest, get a referendum up, assemble to redress disagreements wtih the government, propose a constitutional amendment, etc. I do not advocate following the law without thought. I do advocate following the law until you ( or others) get it changed. Surely you don't advocate a right to disobey every law you disagree with? Do I get to sacrifice virgins, or should I just "mindlessly" follow the law that prohibits it?

true enough - i find the corelation itself to be noteworthy.

though i am more than slightly sympathetic to the view that making millions of people into felons overnight and demanding mandatory sentencing for them is more grandstanding than a reasoned position.

Without further study into why the corelation exists, we can only speculate as to why it is noteworthy. Frankly, I think there is plenty of grandstanding going on all both/all sides of the illegal immigration issue.

US Immigration is not fully open. We put a cap on the number of people entering a year. That is a blatantly xenophobic policy (which began in the late 19th and early 20th centurys as a way to keep the racial balance of the US). It isn't like everyone can walk up to an immigration office and have their background scanned and have citizenship. If that was the case, illegal immigrants would be in the wrong, but that is blatantly not the case.

So anyone who wants in should just get in, no questions asked because we cannot fully check his/her background instantaneously? Is it really xenophobic to put a cap on the number of people from any given nation that can enter each year or is it a pragmatic acknowledment of limited resources that acknowledges reality and the ability to "screen" everyone?

If it is the law it should be followed. If you believe the law is wrong, you should protest, get a referendum up, assemble to redress disagreements wtih the government, propose a constitutional amendment, etc. I do not advocate following the law without thought. I do advocate following the law until you ( or others) get it changed. Surely you don't advocate a right to disobey every law you disagree with? Do I get to sacrifice virgins, or should I just "mindlessly" follow the law that prohibits it?

Civil dissobediance is an effective protest tool with hisoric precidence. Breaking laws which are blatantly wrong and discriminatory as long as you harm no one in the process is an acceptable means of changing them.

So anyone who wants in should just get in, no questions asked because we cannot fully check his/her background instantaneously? Is it really xenophobic to put a cap on the number of people from any given nation that can enter each year or is it a pragmatic acknowledment of limited resources that acknowledges reality and the ability to "screen" everyone?

That's not what I said, so don't put words in my mouth. What I said was "With a background check" they should be let in. That is the only reasonable reason to keep people out. What happened to "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

The policy of racial quotas has been put in place to keep the status quo. It's racist and xenophobic in nature.

However, is a law "racist" because, even though neutral in intent, it has a disparate impact, or is that just merely a "fact of life?"


Whether a particular law is "racist" isn't really the issue; the fact of the matter is that illegal immigrants behave the way they do because there are serious barriers standing in the path of legal immigration. Barriers that many/most cannot overcome. What is important is this: if we want to stop illegal immigration, we must break down those barriers. Educational and economic opportunity and development must be enhanced, and the immigration and naturalization process must be streamlined/simplified and made more affordable. Fining, deporting, and making illegal immigrants into felons is most likely not going to help the situation, and will probably only make things worse. Ignoring the problems as being the "facts of life" might be some people's solution. They should not be surprised, however, when illegal immigration continues or worsens.


Are US immigration laws racist because they affect mexicans more than anyone?

US immigration law is flawed because it encourages illegal immigration by failing to reduce barriers that encourage such behavior.

Civil dissobediance is an effective protest tool with hisoric precidence. Breaking laws which are blatantly wrong and discriminatory as long as you harm no one in the process.

When you enter my country illegally and take a job away from a legal alien or a full citizen, you have harmed someone in the process.

true enough - i find the corelation itself to be noteworthy.

though i am more than slightly sympathetic to the view that making millions of people into felons overnight and demanding mandatory sentencing for them is more grandstanding than a reasoned position.

i agree with your statement that turning normal law abiding people(albeit here illegally is utter b.s. and politics at it's usual ugly self)into felons overnight.

it is a stupid position on so many fronts(where do we put 11 million felons) and now they are a complete drag on society,and not just on the public dole.
and what about all the kids of these so called felons?

a felon in my mind committed an act of violence!

if anything..it should be a misdeamenor...like speeding.

if i was the cynical type...one could argue if you make all illlegal immigrants felons..you have effectively stripped them of the right to vote,own guns...get a decent job after education..etc.
so if someone is proposing giving them legal status but also calling them felons...you have just created the perfect underclass with no hope for advancement....orwellian almost.:eek:

When you enter my country illegally and take a job away from a legal alien or a full citizen, you have harmed someone in the process.

:headbang:

When you come in an drastically lower food prices, while doing a job so unhealthy that cancer rates in you and your children will rise vastly, and in doing so create more jobs in other fields (welcome to the economy. Economic shift happens, and the majority of Americans now work in the serivice industry. By adding new workers, more management, service, and such jobs become available), for a pittance, you are practically doing every American a favor. :rolleyes:

That's not what I said, so don't put words in my mouth. What I said was "With a background check" they should be let in. That is the only reasonable reason to keep people out. What happened to "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

The policy of racial quotas has been put in place to keep the status quo. It's racist and xenophobic in nature.

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, just ask a question. I have no problem with the idea that we let in people with a back ground check. I can agree that racial "quotas" is xenophobic. Decrying current law because it has quotas is ok. However, demanding we forego the background checks because the current law has quotas is non-sensical and foolish. Again, I ask, is it racist to be pragmatic about what we can check? I say no. Just adjust the background check laws to give anyone an equal shot at an "instantaneous" review of their ability to enter the country. Don't check Chinese before German or before Mexican, they all get an equal shot, no problems here. But the idea that no check is needed for Mexicans is dumb. EVERYONE deserves checks and it is not racist to demand that.

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, just ask a question. I have no problem with the idea that we let in people with a back ground check. I can agree that racial "quotas" is xenophobic. Decrying current law because it has quotas is ok. However, demanding we forego the background checks because the current law has quotas is non-sensical and foolish. Again, I ask, is it racist to be pragmatic about what we can check? I say no. Just adjust the background check laws to give anyone an equal shot at an "instantaneous" review of their ability to enter the country. Don't check Chinese before German or before Mexican, they all get an equal shot, no problems here. But the idea that no check is needed for Mexicans is dumb. EVERYONE deserves checks and it is not racist to demand that.

Not at all. However, that's not all that immigration law does, which is the problem. It both betrays the America that has always been the great melting pot, where anyone could come, and the needs of the world and Americans.

I'm off to bed now, so I won't see anything else before morning.

Civil dissobediance is an effective protest tool with hisoric precidence. Breaking laws which are blatantly wrong and discriminatory as long as you harm no one in the process is an acceptable means of changing them.

however...and i take your point...illegal immigration does harm people.

in many ways....look at the crime statistics...the welfare rolls...the skyrocketing health costs....it is not just some guy jumping the border to get work...sometimes yes,actually most times,but there is also the gangs and leeches coming too..so it does harm people.

the victim of their crimes and the taxpayers who support them.

If it is the law it should be followed. If you believe the law is wrong, you should protest, get a referendum up, assemble to redress disagreements wtih the government, propose a constitutional amendment, etc. I do not advocate following the law without thought. I do advocate following the law until you ( or others) get it changed. Surely you don't advocate a right to disobey every law you disagree with? Do I get to sacrifice virgins, or should I just "mindlessly" follow the law that prohibits it?

Certainly I don't advocate a right to ignore the law, but I revel in the ability to undermine unjust laws.

:headbang:

When you come in an drastically lower food prices, while doing a job so unhealthy that cancer rates in you and your children will rise vastly, and in doing so create more jobs in other fields (welcome to the economy. Economic shift happens, and the majority of Americans now work in the serivice industry. By adding new workers, more management, service, and such jobs become available), for a pittance, you are practically doing every American a favor. :rolleyes:

Oh, sorry, you are right. I forgot that the country you left to illegally enter mine is a desert with no ability to do shit to earn a living or that all that oil you have is only there to make money for the government and that there is no minmum wage, etc. there.

Doesn't it speak volumes to you that the ability to earn a living in Mexico is so non-existent that it is worthwhile coming into the US illegally to pick strawberries by hand (just an example) for $2.33/hour? Where the hell is Mexico in improving the life of their citizens? Oh, yeah, their idea of improvement is to help the poor illegally enter the US and pick strawberries while keeping oil $ to the "select few."

however...and i take your point...illegal immigration does harm people.

in many ways....look at the crime statistics...the welfare rolls...the skyrocketing health costs....it is not just some guy jumping the border to get work...sometimes yes,actually most times,but there is also the gangs and leeches coming too..so it does harm people.

the victim of their crimes and the taxpayers who support them.

Has it crossed your mind that most if not all of those of those are symptoms of the law, and not immigration itself?

Sie denken, dass wir nicht verstehen. Sie denken, dass wir nicht nicht uns sorgen. Aber wir verstehen, und wir sorgen uns mehr als sie denken. Wir sind Patrioten. Leute, die kämpfen, für was gut ist. Leute, die kämpfen, für was für unser Land ist. Ich spreche von Nationalismus, und ich bin stolz, ein Amerikaner zu sein,. Sie sind der U-Bootmensch, der U-Bootnennwert rennt das bewohnt unser Land. Wir müssen uns von ihrem ungerechtfertigten Schmutz reinigen. Unsere einzige Wahl; die Endgültige Lösung. Erst werden wir zusammen den faggots und die Deiche, das geistig benachteiligt, und das schwächlich unfähige sammeln. Sie werden in Lager geworfen werden, wo ihr Schmutz unsere Augen wieder nicht sehen wird. Sie werden weg geworfen werden und wir müssen nie sie wieder sehen. Dann werfen wir in den Juden, der Niggers, die Neigungsaugen, die nassen Rückseiten, und anderes Schmutzrennen die ich dürfte vergessen haben, die Lager, die schon von jenen die gereinigt worden sind, sind unbestreitbar. Dann werden unsere Leute von den unerwünschten Rennen gereinigt werden. Wir werden frei sein. Zweit werden wir aus von unseren Heimen abschießen, die diese Erde vom unnatürlichen, dem Un-desirables, und die Un-perfekt reinigen. Diese Erde wird sauber von den Unvollkommenheiten sein, die uns Krieg unter uns für so lang gemacht haben. Wir werden überlegen sein und wir werden sauber sein.
Heil Hitler! :rolleyes:

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/8439483/detail.html
Basically, whats going on is that a school is San Diego was having so much trouble with immigrant people acting in a hostile manner towards American flags, they decided to ban all flags and patriotic clothing!

Wtf, why are we catering to a bunch of fucking immigrants who tear up American flags and fly Mexican flags.

I am patiently waiting for the straw that breaks the camels back.....

How do you propose we go about solving the problems our immigrants from the South are causing?I'd like to vote on your poll, but there's no room for me :(

Anyway, while I personally detest overly patriotic clothing and flaunting one's flag in such an obvious and provocative manner (intentionally), that doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed.

The problem the school seems to be having is that some people are intentionally pissing people off. If its that much of a problem, confiscate the patriotic apparell of those that abuse the privilege. A school wide ban seems drastically overblown.

Sie denken, dass wir nicht verstehen. Sie denken, dass wir nicht nicht uns sorgen. Aber wir verstehen, und wir sorgen uns mehr als sie denken. Wir sind Patrioten. Leute, die kämpfen, für was gut ist. Leute, die kämpfen, für was für unser Land ist. Ich spreche von Nationalismus, und ich bin stolz, ein Amerikaner zu sein,. Sie sind der U-Bootmensch, der U-Bootnennwert rennt das bewohnt unser Land. Wir müssen uns von ihrem ungerechtfertigten Schmutz reinigen. Unsere einzige Wahl; die Endgültige Lösung. Erst werden wir zusammen den faggots und die Deiche, das geistig benachteiligt, und das schwächlich unfähige sammeln. Sie werden in Lager geworfen werden, wo ihr Schmutz unsere Augen wieder nicht sehen wird. Sie werden weg geworfen werden und wir müssen nie sie wieder sehen. Dann werfen wir in den Juden, der Niggers, die Neigungsaugen, die nassen Rückseiten, und anderes Schmutzrennen die ich dürfte vergessen haben, die Lager, die schon von jenen die gereinigt worden sind, sind unbestreitbar. Dann werden unsere Leute von den unerwünschten Rennen gereinigt werden. Wir werden frei sein. Zweit werden wir aus von unseren Heimen abschießen, die diese Erde vom unnatürlichen, dem Un-desirables, und die Un-perfekt reinigen. Diese Erde wird sauber von den Unvollkommenheiten sein, die uns Krieg unter uns für so lang gemacht haben. Wir werden überlegen sein und wir werden sauber sein.Ok. I had to run that through babelfish because the grammar and whatnot is just so crappy. Don't use a language you can't speak please, and don't use babelfish, because it looks really stupid when you use "a group of people running" instead of "an ethnic group". Or "ramparts meant to keep water out" instead of "male looking lesbians". And a couple things just don't exist in German, which is why I oggled at the words "Neigungsaugen" and "nasse Rückseiten". Maybe you were trying to be funny, but you failed miserably.

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/8439483/detail.html
Basically, whats going on is that a school is San Diego was having so much trouble with immigrant people acting in a hostile manner towards American flags, they decided to ban all flags and patriotic clothing!

Wtf, why are we catering to a bunch of fucking immigrants who tear up American flags and fly Mexican flags.

I am patiently waiting for the straw that breaks the camels back.....

How do you propose we go about solving the problems our immigrants from the South are causing?
You think that's bad, what about when last week, they took the American flag and turned it upside down and then put on a pole under the Mexican flag. It's illegal to place any nation's flag under that of another nation. Domestic and international law requires that national flags have to be flown at equal height, not one above the other. The people that did that, got a lot of people pissed off.

That is the biggest and worst insult that you can give to any nation that you happen to be visiting or living or working in. It's something that you just do not do. I think all the people that did it should be deported and permanently banned from reentering the US.


http://www.whittierdailynews.com/search/ci_3660369
the california education system's idea of "punishment" is to slap them on the wrist btw.

This link includes a photo of the American flag being flown below the mexican flag.
http://www.whittierdailynews.com/search/ci_3657710

All they are making him do is apologize to school officials:
http://www.whittierdailynews.com/search/ci_3670008

They should make him apologize to the entire United States people.

stuff like that flag incident only reinforce anti immigration sentiment in the US and is just an example of how illegal immigrants deliberately violate our laws and piss on our traditions and heritage.

This is going to help anti immigration legislation get passed.

They should make him apologize to the entire United States people.And there I was, thinking you had no right to be protected from being insulted :rolleyes:

And there I was, thinking you had no right to be protected from being insulted :rolleyes:
You entirely missed the point, though I don't see how you could have as it was right in front of you. The point isn't that he insulted people, the point is he broke the law of the United States and he did on purpose to spite Americans. In my opinion he should thrown in jail for what he did.

You entirely missed the point, though I don't see how you could have as it was right in front of you. The point isn't that he insulted people, the point is he broke the law of the United States and he did on purpose to spite Americans. In my opinion he should thrown in jail for what he did.Perhaps, but that doesn't really warrant an apology to the entire US. Whittier sounds rather worked up about it, much like muslims where after the Mohammed caricatures.

Banning American flags in American public schools is about as intelligent as banning the Microsoft logo from all Microsoft property. Except it's also illegal.

however...and i take your point...illegal immigration does harm people.

in many ways....look at the crime statistics...the welfare rolls...the skyrocketing health costs....it is not just some guy jumping the border to get work...sometimes yes,actually most times,but there is also the gangs and leeches coming too..so it does harm people.

the victim of their crimes and the taxpayers who support them.

You mean those 'gangs of leeches' that cut your lawns, work on your constuction sites, pump your gas, wash your car, do your laundry.....

The bastards.

Doing jobs that most people are too good for.

You mean those 'gangs of leeches' that cut your lawns, work on your constuction sites, pump your gas, wash your car, do your laundry.....

The bastards.

Doing jobs that most people are too good for.

Did you read his post? He deliberately said that there's a difference between the illegal immigrants who come to work and those who come as criminals.

And yes. A large amount of people does come as criminals. Not the majority, but this part exist.

Movements like Aztlan and such are also rather too strong among some of the illegal immigrants.

The solution? Closing the border, and only letting people in legally.

Make it easy to come legally, while passing a variety of background checks.
Make it damn hard to just walk accross the border.

Perhaps, but that doesn't really warrant an apology to the entire US. Whittier sounds rather worked up about it, much like muslims where after the Mohammed caricatures.
Well you are right on that first point. But it is an issue of what the illegal immigrant activists have been doing for years already. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
btw, the whittier account isn't working cause of a problem with our internet over here.

You mean those 'gangs of leeches' that cut your lawns, work on your constuction sites, pump your gas, wash your car, do your laundry.....

The bastards.

Doing jobs that most people are too good for.
Let's see, cut the lawn, well I do that myself. Construction site? I don't have one. Pump gas, most people I know, including myself, pump their own gas. Wash car? I wash my own car and so does everyone I know. As almost everyone does their own laundry. I even grow and pick my own strawberries. I don't need illegals to do any of that for me. I can do them myself.

Did you read his post? He deliberately said that there's a difference between the illegal immigrants who come to work and those who come as criminals.

And yes. A large amount of people does come as criminals. Not the majority, but this part exist.

Movements like Aztlan and such are also rather too strong among some of the illegal immigrants.

The solution? Closing the border, and only letting people in legally.

Make it easy to come legally, while passing a variety of background checks.
Make it damn hard to just walk accross the border.

Oh no I did read it. Its just a sentiment I've noticed in many Western societies- including Europe- dem immigants be stealin' ar jobs! attitude. A lot of the jobs even the illegal immigrants do are shitty, low paying jobs that 'native' citizens don't dream of doing because it is below them.

I wouldn't base increasing crime levels on them... unless of course there are sources to back up such claims?:)

Let's see, cut the lawn, well I do that myself. Construction site? I don't have one. Pump gas, most people I know, including myself, pump their own gas. Wash car? I wash my own car and so does everyone I know. As almost everyone does their own laundry. I even grow and pick my own strawberries. I don't need illegals to do any of that for me. I can do them myself.

As do I.
What do you want, a medal? :p

I didn't blame 'increasing crime levels' on Mexican illegals.

I pointed out that gangs etc. DO travel freely accross the border, and that is a Bad Thing [tm].

Also, as I pointed out originally:

Banning the American flag - the logo, so to speak, of the United States - in a public school belonging to the United States - is bloody idiotic.

It is also, thank God, illegal.

We must implement... Ze Final Solution!

Okay, I officially suck at 1940s German accents.
LOL..
woks better if he wears his T-shirt

http://www.beanicus.com/photos/Tims%2021st/tn/Nazi%20Luke%201.med.jpg

well they are the ones disrespecting our culture to the point of flying there flags here..and not trying to even bother to learn the native language(please dont say indian)as any sensible person that wants to assimilate and take advantage of another societies benefits should,i know i would not go to germany,exspect to live there,collect welfare,have the german taxpayers school and feed and maintain my kids health..and not bother to learn german,let alone fly an american flag on my car..and basically feel the germans owe me anything?
and not pay into the system all the while exspecting a free ride..then get all pissed when they get a bit miffed at me for using them.


I could maybe take your comment about immigrants learning English a little more seriously if you had not had at least seventeen spelling and grammar errors just in your first sentence. I would have counted the rest of your post too, but I honestly couldn't be bothered. And by the way, I lived in Germany for eight years, and I speak fluent German.

Also, as I pointed out originally:

Banning the American flag - the logo, so to speak, of the United States - in a public school belonging to the United States - is bloody idiotic.

It is also, thank God, illegal.

I don't understand. If it's causing problems, creates a bad atmosphere (temporarily), and all around is having a negative effect... you would continue to do it, merely because you can?

Maybe doing the smart thing sometimes, overrides that kind of law on a case by case basis.

First of all, if a person hates America so much merely seeing her flag causes him to violently attack people, he's obviously a hateful bigot and deserves to be offended. Same reason I wear a stereotypical gay handbag.

Second, it's freedom of speech. Students have sued schools over such crap in the past, and won. I hope they sue the hell out of these bastards and get them fired.

Third, what about the American flag flying from the school building itself?

First of all, if a person hates America so much merely seeing her flag causes him to violently attack people, he's obviously a hateful bigot and deserves to be offended. Same reason I wear a stereotypical gay handbag.

Who said anything about 'hating America'? next you'll say they 'hate freedom'. :rolleyes:
Maybe, its a bit sensitive at the moment because a lot of people use a flag in a bit of nationalist dick waving. "Patriotism: Why bother thinking"


Second, it's freedom of speech. Students have sued schools over such crap in the past, and won. I hope they sue the hell out of these bastards and get them fired.
So what if it is freedom of speech? Just because you can say something, doesn't mean you should. Responsibility goes with spouting your mouth off.


Third, what about the American flag flying from the school building itself?

What about it? Personally, I think its a bit much. What, you guys need to be reminded where you are? :p

I wear a stereotypical gay handbag.:confused:
I dont understand.. Why do you wear a steroidypical Gay handbag again?

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/8439483/detail.html
Basically, whats going on is that a school is San Diego was having so much trouble with immigrant people acting in a hostile manner towards American flags, they decided to ban all flags and patriotic clothing!

Wtf, why are we catering to a bunch of fucking immigrants who tear up American flags and fly Mexican flags.

I am patiently waiting for the straw that breaks the camels back.....

How do you propose we go about solving the problems our immigrants from the South are causing?


Open all borders, get rid of all counties, and become citerzens of Earth. That way people will emigrate to where their skills are needed, and stop running from countries where they are being persacuted, or where they can find a higher standard of living.

Who said anything about 'hating America'? next you'll say they 'hate freedom'.

Lesseee... the american flag is the symbol of America.

If a person sees the American flag and gets pissed by it's presence, the logical conclusion is he hates America.

If this person now translates this into physical violence, he is probably not much in favor of freedom, too.

"Patriotism: Why bother thinking"

1. What make liking America stupid? I have a few American flags, memorabilia, etc. in my room, does that make me stupid?

2. What makes stupidity a bannable offense? Do they ban the $flag_of_other_country too?

you guys need to be reminded where you are

It seems logical to me to wave a nation's flag - the symbol of it's government structure and way of life - from all offices belonging to it's government. Schools, Army bases, etc.

The European "omg, we are ashamed of our own flags" thing is dumb, really.

I dont understand.. Why do you wear a steroidypical Gay handbag again?


1. I like it.

2. I'm bisexual.

God, the USA is strange place. A little moderation with these kind of things would be useful!

First of all, if a person hates America so much merely seeing her flag causes him to violently attack people, he's obviously a hateful bigot and deserves to be offended. Same reason I wear a stereotypical gay handbag.

Second, it's freedom of speech. Students have sued schools over such crap in the past, and won. I hope they sue the hell out of these bastards and get them fired.

Third, what about the American flag flying from the school building itself?
Just possibly one of the posts in this thread with which I agree the most! [ applauds ] :)

So what if it is freedom of speech? Just because you can say something, doesn't mean you should. Responsibility goes with spouting your mouth off.
And your solution to this problem of people "saying things they shouldn't" would be???

Why do you wear a steroidypical Gay handbag again?
To advertise that he's on steroids so the idiots who object to his handbag will realize he will kick their asses if they harrass him. :D

My idea:

1) Encourage violent patriotism
2) Create two sides
3) Instigate hostility
4) Watch them revome themselve from genepool
5) Collect Underpants
6) ?
7) Profit

http://peta-sucks.com/smf/Smileys/default/icon_laughabove.gif

To advertise that he's on steroids so the idiots who object to his handbag will realize he will kick their asses if they harrass him. :DLOL.. is that anabolic steroids? :p

I say kick the idiots asses. :D

LOL.. is that anabolic steroids? :D

I say kick the idiots asses. :p
Send me an email or something. I'll help! :D

Am I the only one who noticed that they banned BOTH flags? People go on about banning the american flag like it was the only one targetted by the measure.

However, if the school thinks that removing the flags will remove the racism and hatred, they are mistaken. But maybe fights will not break up, who knows?

If the United States had just refraimed from annexing half of Mexico in the mid 1800s, San Diego would be mexican, and you wouldn't have that problem.
Well, if the US had annexed the whole of Mexico, there wouldn't be any Mexicans and there wouldn't be this problem either.

Second, it's freedom of speech. Students have sued schools over such crap in the past, and won. I hope they sue the hell out of these bastards and get them fired.
Yup. I don't think this'll hold for that same reason. By the way, has anyone noticed that the ACLU is defending the student's right of free speech and using patriotic symbols? Just to keep in mind the next time there are cries of "the ACLU are a bunch of criminal-lover commies"

Am I the only one who noticed that they banned BOTH flags? People go on about banning the american flag like it was the only one targetted by the measure.
Psh, silly inconsequential facts. You don't need facts when you are going off on a nationalistic tirade!

Psh, silly inconsequential facts. You don't need facts when you are going off on a nationalistic tirade!
oh right, I forgot! How silly of me :p

im just going to say that why are immigrants doing anti-american things when they came here to have a better life, we shouldn't cater to them and if you burn an american flag in america then send em back where they came from.

second im from North Carolina and the immigrants from the south as you call em are usually good citizens that work hard and support and are thankful to be in america, though some are sorry gangstas or whatever.

im just going to say that why are immigrants doing anti-american things when they came here to have a better life, we shouldn't cater to them and if you burn an american flag in america then send em back where they came from.

second im from North Carolina and the immigrants from the south as you call em are usually good citizens that work hard and support and are thankful to be in america, though some are sorry gangstas or whatever.
oh, how silly of them to respect the law and use their constitutionnal right to burn their property! Like american born citizen never do that sort of thing. :rolleyes:

Like american born citizen never do that sort of thing. :rolleyes:Hey, if they do, we send them back where they came from.

Let's see if I have this straight:

The article linked mentions that they've placed a temporary ban on flags and patriotic clothing in order to prevent violence, because students were using them to taunt classmates.

Taunt.

It also makes no specific mention on which students were actually doing the taunting, Americans or Immigrants. It also doesn't mention any specific acts of violence, or in fact that there were any, just that they wish to prevent them.
If there were any acts of violence, it doesn't mention who they were by, Americans or Immigrants.

And from this, the immediate reaction is to declare that 'immigrant people [are] acting in a hostile manner towards American flags...', and are attacking Americans simply due to seeing the flag?

Hmmm.

Let's see if I have this straight:

The article linked mentions that they've placed a temporary ban on flags and patriotic clothing in order to prevent violence, because students were using them to taunt classmates.

Taunt.

It also makes no specific mention on which students were actually doing the taunting, Americans or Immigrants. It also doesn't mention any specific acts of violence, or in fact that there were any, just that they wish to prevent them.
If there were any acts of violence, it doesn't mention who they were by, Americans or Immigrants.

And from this, the immediate reaction is to declare that 'immigrant people [are] acting in a hostile manner towards American flags...', and are attacking Americans simply due to seeing the flag?

Hmmm.
See post #100.

Buh. Making it illegal to show that you love your country? Is this some kind of joke? Just because it pisses off some people who came into the country illegally?

This is America, and people have a right to express their feelings about it, whether those feelings are positive or negative, so long as they express those feelings in a peaceful way.

Sounds good. But how do we profit?
We keep all their stuff.

Let's see if I have this straight:

The article linked mentions that they've placed a temporary ban on flags and patriotic clothing in order to prevent violence, because students were using them to taunt classmates.



Where, exactly, does it say it?

Am I the only one who noticed that they banned BOTH flags? People go on about banning the american flag like it was the only one targetted by the measure.

This makes it okay, how?

It's actually a very good idea http://assets.jolt.co.uk/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif
Blind nationalism and we-are-better-than-everone-else thinking is totally rampant in the US, so it's nice to see that there are still some sane people left.

Where, exactly, does it say it?

Top of the article: 'Beginning Monday, the Oceanside Unified School District is banning all flags and patriotic clothing. According to school officials, some students are using the garments and flags to taunt classmates.'

Mid-way through the article: 'School officials in Oceanside now say that flags -- whether they are U.S. or Mexican or any other country's -- have now become a divider on campuses, saying that some students are using them to taunt other students.'

Bottom of the article: 'School officials are saying that the ban is just temporary and that they were just trying to prevent violence.'


In those places.

President Bush may sign the Democratic version of the immigration law cause its a lot closer to what he wants than what the Reps are offering.

Lesseee... the american flag is the symbol of America.

If a person sees the American flag and gets pissed by it's presence, the logical conclusion is he hates America.

:rolleyes: Riight. Way to go from A to B to Z. That phrase coupled with 'hating freedom' has become so engrained in popular usage that I think you just use it like verbal diarrhea.


If this person now translates this into physical violence, he is probably not much in favor of freedom, too.

...but its ok if the guy committing the violence wraps himself in the ol' Stars an' Stripes... he can't hate freedom too! :eek:



It seems logical to me to wave a nation's flag - the symbol of it's government structure and way of life - from all offices belonging to it's government. Schools, Army bases, etc.
Govt. Yes.
Army bases. Yes.
Schools? Why?


The European "omg, we are ashamed of our own flags" thing is dumb, really.
'Ashamed'? No. But their symbolism has helped create a lot of pain, suffering and torment.

You don't seem to realise the power of a symbol, do you?

And your solution to this problem of people "saying things they shouldn't" would be???

As yes, the old "Fight Fire with Fire" attitude. I find water works a lot better. ;)

Maybe, just shutting your mouth and not exacerbating a difficult situation might work.

Like what the principle did- not inflame the situation by taking sides.

My idea:

1) Encourage violent patriotism
2) Create two sides
3) Instigate hostility
4) Watch them revome themselve from genepool
5) Collect Underpants
6) ?
7) Profit
You tricky little gnome.

...but its ok if the guy committing the violence wraps himself in the ol' Stars an' Stripes... he can't hate freedom too!


Let me explain this to you thus:

If the mere sight of a country's flag drive you to violence, you probably hate that country.

If you see it okay to beat people up for wearing a certain flag, you probably hate freedom, too - even if it is the Nazi flag.

And frankly, restraining the freedom of expression of ALL students because some of them have abused it to taunt others is still wrong. Even if it is a Nazi flag.

(wonders how many more people will accuse him of American ultranationalism)

Let me explain this to you thus:

If the mere sight of a country's flag drive you to violence, you probably hate that country.

How do you know is was "the mere sight" of the flag? How are so you confident that there are no other mitigating factos in this? Bullying, racism, ethnic tensions, general gand violence etc etc.

What makes you so damn sure- its all about a flag?



If you see it okay to beat people up for wearing a certain flag, you probably hate freedom, too - even if it is the Nazi flag.

And frankly, restraining the freedom of expression of ALL students because some of them have abused it to taunt others is still wrong. Even if it is a Nazi flag.

(wonders how many more people will accuse him of American ultranationalism)

Ok, now you're going into Godwin Land. Back up a bit.

The European "omg, we are ashamed of our own flags" thing is dumb, really.

Ashamed? We're not ashamed.

To quote Terry Pratchett: "We don't have to make a big fuss about being the best, sir. We just know." - Night Watch

:D

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/8439483/detail.html
Basically, whats going on is that a school is San Diego was having so much trouble with immigrant people acting in a hostile manner towards American flags, they decided to ban all flags and patriotic clothing!

Wtf, why are we catering to a bunch of fucking immigrants who tear up American flags and fly Mexican flags.

I am patiently waiting for the straw that breaks the camels back.....

How do you propose we go about solving the problems our immigrants from the South are causing?

Oh of course, I get it. A US school district bans flags, but it's the fault of "immigrants." Yeah.

The way I see it, you're about to start running for the hills where you have a hunter's lodge and stockpiles of ammo. Because it's the MEXICAN ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE!

one school district is taking drastic measures, banning all symbols of patriotism, both U.S. and Mexican.

This is the equivalent to if two children are beating each other up over some stupid toy panda, you prohibit the kids from having stuffed animals.

I bet you wouldn't be objecting if they were going to just ban MEXICAN flags or patriotism, would you? Oh no. That'd be okay then. No cries of "free spech omgz0r!"

Xenophobia.

How do you know is was "the mere sight" of the flag?

Because if it isn't that, banning it is even more retarded.


Ok, now you're going into Godwin Land. Back up a bit.


Newsflash: I do not live in America and have never visited.

Because if it isn't that, banning it is even more retarded.
*sigh* Might be time for the finger puppet explanation then...

If the flag is a part of a larger problem, and temporarily removing one of the constituent problems (ie a flag) helps to cool the tense situation even if it only allows people to calm down and become rational again, do you not think that it would help the issue?




Newsflash: I do not live in America and have never visited.

And? What has that got to do with you using an aspect of Godwin?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law

So why not ban the real key of the problem, namely violence? :D Wait, that's already banned... :D

Why punish the people who are NOT using the flag (either flag) to instigate violence.


Oh... and to add grafics to this thread:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/800px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png

I can't say I'd count this as punishment, they're just adding a rule. Temporarily at that.

Meh!

It's the American way. It takes effort to punish individuals so why not make a sweeping rule?

I guess they don't have zero-tolerance rules on violence in San Diego?

Let me explain this to you thus:

If the mere sight of a country's flag drive you to violence, you probably hate that country.
Hold it right there. Your premisce is wrong.

What drives me to violence is not the piece of cloth, it's the attitude of the one wearing it.

I don't hate the flag and what it stands for, I hate *this* guy who uses what used to be beautiful and turn it into an object of hate and discrimination. I punch him because of his ideas, not because he wears red, white and bule (or green, white and red).

In fact, I view myself as a patriot who stands up when someone uses the flag in a disgracious fashion. If you don't like why I do this, you must hate my country. And that makes you just as guilty as those you just condemned.