NationStates Jolt Archive

Water. H2O. A nearly colorless, tasteless, and odorless liquid. It is often referred to in the sciences as the universal solvent and the only pure substance found naturally in all three states of matter. Well, we know it's the best solvent out there, but can it also be a solute? I racked my brain for instances where it acts not as the solvent in a solvation, but as the solute. I couldn't think of any case when it does. Can you?

Remember, the solute is the thing being dissolved. The solvent is the thing doing the dissolving. The solvation is the process by which the solute is dissolved.

I believe there is none. Call on electrolysis for splitting water.

Can't you dissolve ice in propylene glycol? That would make water the solute.

Can't you dissolve ice in propylene glycol? That would make water the solute.

only if at the end of the desolving prosses the water in the ice was not still water.

if elceticity can count as a solivent (plasma pehaps?) electrolysis would work, as it devides the O from the H2

only if at the end of the desolving prosses the water in the ice was not still water.

if elceticity can count as a solivent (plasma pehaps?) electrolysis would work, as it devides the O from the H2
A solution doesn't change the solute into another substance. A grease stain that's disolved out of fabric by carbon tetrachloride is still grease. It's just mixed with the carbon tetrachloride. Dissolve salt in water and although it becomes chlorine and sodium ions in the solution, when the solution is evaporated the salt remains. It hasn't been converted into something else.

A solution doesn't change the solute into another substance. A grease stain that's disolved out of fabric by carbon tetrachloride is still grease. It's just mixed with the carbon tetrachloride. Dissolve salt in water and although it becomes chlorine and sodium ions in the solution, when the solution is evaporated the salt remains. It hasn't been converted into something else.

your right,as you can tell its been a while sence i took basic chemistry:p

Contrary to popular opinion, ice is not a solid. It is a liquid. It flows, just extremely slowly.

your right,as you can tell its been a while sence i took basic chemistry:p
No big deal. I majored in chem and I've been corrected before in this forum. Before you ask, I didn't finish college but I wanted to get into organic chemistry.

Contrary to popular opinion, ice is not a solid. It is a liquid. It flows, just extremely slowly.

Glass is also a liquid, again slow flowing.

Contrary to popular opinion, ice is not a solid. It is a liquid. It flows, just extremely slowly.
Are you sure about that? Ice isn't amorphous, like glass. It has a crystal structure based on the polar nature of the water molecule. I would think that it's a true solid.

Contrary to popular opinion, ice is not a solid. It is a liquid. It flows, just extremely slowly.

Doesn't glass do that too?

EDIT: Oh look! Apparently so.

Contrary to popular opinion, ice is not a solid. It is a liquid. It flows, just extremely slowly.

You appear to have misunderstood the concept of a solid: flowing and solidity are not mutually exclusive.

i remember a question like this being posed in my advanced chemistry class. shows how well i paid attention that i can't remember how the discussion went. something about water always being both solute and solvent

meh, idk

how is it that a solid can also flow?

Doesn't glass do that too?

Glass does flow, however that does not mean that it is not a solid. However, a good deal of misinformation surrounds this issue as medieval glass was produced so as to be thicker at the base than at the top, thus creating the impression that it flowed downwards over time to a greater extent than was actually the case.

how is it that a solid can also flow?

Because atoms/molecules don't actually stop moving unless they reach absolute zero, or something like that.

Contrary to popular opinion, ice is not a solid. It is a liquid. It flows, just extremely slowly.

thanks killjoy :rolleyes:

*no just kidding*

so i assume water just skips the solid phase then? or is it just really hard to achieve truly solid h2o?

how is it that a solid can also flow?

It depends on the nature of the molecular structure of the solid: however, Brownian motion does still occur in solids, and this is influenced by gravity, thus there is a slight tendency for molecules to move downwards over time.

Glass does flow, however that does not mean that it is not a solid. However, a good deal of misinformation surrounds this issue as medieval glass was produced so as to be thicker at the base than at the top, thus creating the impression that it flowed downwards over time to a greater extent than was actually the case.
I was under the impression that glass was not a solid but rather a super visous liquid. I could be wrong.

Because atoms/molecules don't actually stop moving unless they reach absolute zero, or something like that.

right that makes sence.


does anyone know what the vesosoty of glass is? if its not a solid?

All move....just very very slowly. Glass is a liquid actually! Just it moves very slowly.

right that makes sence.

He's correct. At 0K do they only stop, but no one has slowed a molecule to that speed....

I was under the impression that glass was not a solid but rather a super visous liquid. I could be wrong.

It used to be termed a super viscous liquid, but is no longer considered to be such.

thanks killjoy :rolleyes:

*no just kidding*

so i assume water just skips the solid phase then? or is it just really hard to achieve truly solid h2o?
In order to be a true solid it needs to have an organized molecular structure. i don't think that's acheivable in nature. Maybe at or near absolute zero, but I'm not sure.

All move....just very very slowly. Glass is a liquid actually! Just it moves very slowly.

Huh? What makes you claim that glass is a liquid (at room temperature)?

He's correct. At 0K do they only stop, but no one has slowed a molecule to that speed....
Then again I vaguely remember reading an article on physics that says that you can't reach absolute zero because the atoms/molecules will always jiggle a bit. I forget why. Maybe it has something to do with the Heisenberg uncertainty thing.

It used to be termed a super viscous liquid, but is no longer considered to be such.
Ah, thanks. So it's a true solid?

In order to be a true solid it needs to have an organized molecular structure. i don't think that's acheivable in nature. Maybe at or near absolute zero, but I'm not sure.

Doesn't ice have an organized molecular structure? I know water molecules form a crystalline structure with spaces throughout, which is why ice can float on water...

this is making me wonder, if glass is a liquid, and you can shatter it, what other things can you shatter that are liquids?

and does this mean that if a i break a window but the put all the pieces back together, and come back in say 500+years that the window will have fixed its self?

Ah, thanks. So it's a true solid?

Yeah, not only that it has .... *checks the net* ...twelve different distinct forms.

Doesn't ice have an organized molecular structure? I know water molecules form a crystalline structure with spaces throughout, which is why ice can float on water...
But it needs to be stable. Ice flows. Glaciers flow over time, for example, and not because they melt but because slight variatiosn in temperature, wind and gravity make them flow. To be honest, I'm not sure about all the particulars. I just remember from a science teacher/mentor of mine in college that ice is not a true solid.

this is making me wonder, if glass is a liquid, and you can shatter it, what other things can you shatter that are liquids?

A flawless and intelligent question, save for the fact that glass (at room temperature) isn't a liquid.

But it needs to be stable. Ice flows. Glaciers flow over time, for example, and not because they melt but because slight variatiosn in temperature, wind and gravity make them flow. To be honest, I'm not sure about all the particulars. I just remember from a science teacher/mentor of mine in college that ice is not a true solid.

How bizarre...

A flawless and intelligent question, save for the fact that glass (at room temperature) isn't a liquid.


thank you :)

so if glass in not a liquid, are there any "solids" that actualy are a liquid?

In order to be a true solid it needs to have an organized molecular structure. i don't think that's acheivable in nature. Maybe at or near absolute zero, but I'm not sure.
So you wouldn't consider an amorphous substance such as charcoal a solid? What would you term it then?

Then again I vaguely remember reading an article on physics that says that you can't reach absolute zero because the atoms/molecules will always jiggle a bit. I forget why. Maybe it has something to do with the Heisenberg uncertainty thing.
Right, because linear momentum and position operators are noncommutative, it is intuitive to understand that any system must have zero-point energy: if it were perfectly still then both its position and its linear momentum (which is proportional to energy) would be known, violating Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. Quantum mechanics prohibits absolute 0 from being reached.

thank you :)

so if glass in not a liquid, are there any "solids" that actualy are a liquid?
Asphalt maybe?

But it needs to be stable. Ice flows. Glaciers flow over time, for example, and not because they melt but because slight variatiosn in temperature, wind and gravity make them flow. To be honest, I'm not sure about all the particulars. I just remember from a science teacher/mentor of mine in college that ice is not a true solid.
Stones "flow" too. Ever see rock strata bent and folded over milions of years of tectonic stress?

Asphalt maybe?

probly not the stone in asphalt but maby the tar?

but then again iam pritty sure that tar is a liquid....

Water. H2O. A nearly colorless, tasteless, and odorless liquid. It is often referred to in the sciences as the universal solvent and the only pure substance found naturally in all three states of matter. Well, we know it's the best solvent out there, but can it also be a solute? I racked my brain for instances where it acts not as the solvent in a solvation, but as the solute. I couldn't think of any case when it does. Can you?

Remember, the solute is the thing being dissolved. The solvent is the thing doing the dissolving. The solvation is the process by which the solute is dissolved.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I got to NS to excape Honors Chem adn you bring it here! You bastard! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!:headbang: :headbang: (Insert running around in circles smily here)

If I recall corectly, a lot of 'solids' are actually hyper-viscuos liquids, I believe metals such as steel, iron and gold are that way, as is (surprisingly) Uranium 238.
Uranium 238 (wepaons grade) is usually used to make IRVs for nuclear ICBMs, IRVs made this way have to be carefully stored and their position must be changed regularly to keep them from losing shape.

All matter moves and flows....just the rate is so small no one will notice on our timescale.

No, glass is not a liquid...glass is an amorphous solid, but apparently glass is in a unique group of amorphous solids.

Ho yeah, I'm in Honors Chemistry right now, and I'm reading from my book.


(And if you simply have more of the other polar covalent substance and put less water in that substance, then isn't water acting as the solute?)

Well, if you ever do find a solution where water is supposed to be the solute, there's an easy way to check: just heat it until the water precipitates out.;)

No, glass is not a liquid...glass is an amorphous solid, but apparently glass is in a unique group of amorphous solids.

Ho yeah, I'm in Honors Chemistry right now, and I'm reading from my book.


(And if you simply have more of the other polar covalent substance and put less water in that substance, then isn't water acting as the solute?)

Its a liquid basically. It will flow on a relatively short timescale compared to 'solids'. If you look at a colonial house the bottom of the window is much thicker then the top. Proof it flows.

What about mercury? Is mercury at room temp. a liquid or a solid?

But it needs to be stable. Ice flows. Glaciers flow over time, for example, and not because they melt but because slight variatiosn in temperature, wind and gravity make them flow.

Glaciers "flow" under their own weight. The weight of the ice produces enough pressure to melt the ice where it touches the earths surface. The glacier flows over a thin film of ice (just like an ice skate).

Its a liquid basically. It will flow on a relatively short timescale compared to 'solids'. If you look at a colonial house the bottom of the window is much thicker then the top. Proof it flows.

I believe it was mentioned old window were sometimes built that way, amplifing that flow...and I don't think it has to be liquid to flow.

What about mercury? Is mercury at room temp. a liquid or a solid?

Mercury is a liquid at room temperature.

Its a liquid basically. It will flow on a relatively short timescale compared to 'solids'. If you look at a colonial house the bottom of the window is much thicker then the top. Proof it flows.
Well, okay it flows. But the intra(or inter?)molecular bonds that hold glass molecules together are not weak enough so that it has a definite volume and no definite shape at any given time.

So it flows, but it does take years and years.

I just don't see how "it floats" simply justifies it as a liquid. :confused:

What about mercury? Is mercury at room temp. a liquid or a solid?

Liquid, that and bromine are like, the only liquid elements.

You people are making me relive Earth Science. I got a "C" in that class.:(

You people are making me relive Earth Science. I got a "C" in that class.:(

Maybe you shoutldn't have spent so much time here...actually, that's probably unlikely, but meh.

Well, if you ever do find a solution where water is supposed to be the solute, there's an easy way to check: just heat it until the water precipitates out.;)
Cool it down maybe? If you cool a solution of water in an alcohol, like ethanol to very low temperatures ice will precipitate out.

Liquid, that and bromine are like, the only liquid elements.
Depends on temperature. Any metal will melt into a liquid at the right temperature. I think Gallium will melt from the heat of your hand. Helium at the right temp will be liquid too. It all depends on temp I think.

Water must be a solute because you can remove water-stains with club soda.

Depends on temperature. Any metal will melt into a liquid at the right temperature. I think Gallium will melt from the heat of your hand. Helium at the right temp will be liquid too. It all depends on temp I think.

Yeah, I knew about Gallium, I was thinking room temp, or whatever temperature that periodic table uses as a standard.

Maybe you shoutldn't have spent so much time here...actually, that's probably unlikely, but meh.

No, I spent too much time staring at the hot German exchange student two seats down.

No, I spent too much time staring at the hot German exchange student two seats down.

Ah, time well wasted then.

By definition when two liquids form a uniform mixture or solution the one in smaller proportions is the solute. Water and Ethanol are infinately soluable in each other. Therefore, water, by definition is soluable in sufficient ethanol.

Its a liquid basically. It will flow on a relatively short timescale compared to 'solids'. If you look at a colonial house the bottom of the window is much thicker then the top. Proof it flows.

Nope. Funny how people always drag out this example, but don't think to apply the same reasoning to older glass items, such as drinking vessels or the like.

Window glass used to be produced by inflating molten glass into a hollow sphere which was then spun so as to create a flat circular disk. Centrifugal forces caused the outside edge to be thicker than the centre. Sheets of glass were then cut from this disk, and thus some older windows are thicker at the base than at the top... however, the converse is also true, some older windows are thicker at the top than at the bottom, and sometimes one side is thicker than the other side.

Glaciers "flow" under their own weight. The weight of the ice produces enough pressure to melt the ice where it touches the earths surface. The glacier flows over a thin film of ice (just like an ice skate).
Ice skates don't flow over a thin film of water ... it's fairly easy to show this - we just need to show what pressure we would need to depress the freezing point of water by 1 K, say.

We can easily derive the Clapeyron equation from first principles and it is
dp/dt = Delta{S}/Delta{V} = Delta{H}/(T*Delta{V}) (at equilibrium)
The enthalpy of fusion of water at 273 K is 6.01 kJ/mol. The molar volume of ice is 1.963 * 10^-5 m^3 and the molar volume of water is 1.800 * 10^-5 m^3.
Then (assuming the enthalpy change during the phase transition is independent of temperature, which is reasonable for a change of 1 K only):
Delta{p} = Delta{H}/Delta{V} Integral{1/T dT}(T0,T1) = Delta{H}/Delta{V} Ln[T0/T1]
Inserting the above values and using T0=273 K and T1=272 K gives the change in pressure to be 1.35 * 10^7 Pa.

To effect this pressure with a skate with dimensions, say, 1 mm * 30 cm = 0.0003 m^2 (I think this is a reasonable assumption - I don't think it can be too far off to change the final result significantly), the force required to press on this would be 4060 N, which would correspond to about 410 kg (900 lb). Now, surely you can skate even if you're just a child weighing some 25 kg! And this was calculated assuming the ice was only at -1 degree Celsius!

So this bit of easy, pure classical thermodynamics shows you that there's no thin film of water effected by pressure-induced melting point depression involved in ice skating. The current theory about why it is possible to skate is that there isn't a sudden end in the crystalline form of ice - it would be entropically disfavourable for two entropically very distinct species to be in sharp contact. Or something like that. So the borderline region is somewhat different from ice per-se. (Not very sure what I'm talking about any more - definitely not my area of expertise!)