NationStates Jolt Archive

An age old question. It divided the Catholic Church and spawned many many new forms of Christianity (Don't bother mentioning Indulgences, everyone agrees that it was wrong). I want to know the general view on this debate. What do you belive is essential to Salvation. Faith?, Works?, or something else? Express your wisdom and lets see.

Faith without works is meaningless.

Works without faith is still pretty helpful.

I'll take works.

Faith, love, and obedience.

I always thought indulgences divided the Chruch, but then again, those are neither faith nor works, so to say.

you need them both.

To genuinely seek without intent of reward or self-gratification; that's all I think is needed.

If you mean in the afterlife sense, however, I certainly reckon that attempting to get there, whichever you resort to in pursuit of that goal, is a minus point in the first place.

None. There's no salvation because there's no condemnation. Just because there's no god and all.

Faith without deeds is nothing.

Deeds without faith is nothing.

Or something - it's in one of the epistles, and it's fairly close to that.

Works.

I always thought indulgences divided the Chruch, but then again, those are neither faith nor works, so to say.
Turns out we weren't supposed to mention these "indulgences".

There's a good arguement for faith, there's a good arguement for works, and so the logical sythesis of the two would be faith and works in conjunction with one another because they go hand in hand.

Christians are saved by grace through faith unto works.

Works are the natural result of faith, not what actually saves them. That's why James is screaming in his epistle about there being no works: persons were claiming to be Christians but weren't living like it.

The words 'faith' and 'works' are being used in the same sentance. How odd.
*flees thread*

Faith without works is dead. Work is proof of living faith. It is a simple concept; those who know Christ will be motivated to do good. So, those who don't do good must not know Christ.

I finally found the verses: Ephesians 2:8,9

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is a gift from God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

(English Standard Version)

Faith without works is meaningless.

Works without faith is still pretty helpful.

I'll take works.

As will I. I have a considerable amount of faith, but I'm aware that people who do not share that faith may have done as much or more to make the world a better place through their actions. As long as people are doing good works I don't worry too much about their faith.

Faith without works is dead. Work is proof of living faith. It is a simple concept; those who know Christ will be motivated to do good. So, those who don't do good must not know Christ.

Not necessarily. We are still human, and we still sin. We can stumble and sin grievously so that we appear to no longer ove Christ, but we still know Him and will come back to Him: salvation is irrevocable. Also, there are sins of ignorance.

Finally, because all our actions, thoughts, desires, etc. are tainted by sin, none of them are truly good. Some are better than others, but none are truly good. So no one does good.

Here comes my racy comment of the week: Faith, WTF is that? Faith in a person that you can see and touch or faith in this very annoying "God" person I keep hearing about? My point here is I think faith in "God" is a little useless, I really don't get why my parents are trying to get me into it.:headbang: I'm suposedly "Roman Catholic". I personally think it's all weird and a little bit stupid. And what's with all the religous physcos trying to ban books with demons and socery? It's stupid. I don't belive in any religon, I don't need a "God". All I need is family, friends, and music.:D

If the question is "essential to salvation", then my answer is FAITH.

Now, assuming you have FAITH and a good relationship with God, the WORKS will be there too, so you'll end up with both.

A good Christian should have both.

But FAITH is what is required for Salvation. One of the criminals crucified with Jesus was saved by FAITH, not works.

If the question is "essential to salvation", then my answer is FAITH.

Now, assuming you have FAITH and a good relationship with God, the WORKS will be there too, so you'll end up with both.

A good Christian should have both.

But FAITH is what is required for Salvation. One of the criminals crucified with Jesus was saved by FAITH, not works.

Just a side question.

Is this your first post because of the topic, or would you have posted anyway?

I never much liked MS Works. Isn't faith what you need to use Microsoft stuff?

If the question is "essential to salvation", then my answer is FAITH.

Now, assuming you have FAITH and a good relationship with God, the WORKS will be there too, so you'll end up with both.

A good Christian should have both.

But FAITH is what is required for Salvation. One of the criminals crucified with Jesus was saved by FAITH, not works.

if you feel that you DO have faith, but look at yourself (after a while), and see that you do NO good works, are you still saved? is there something wrong about your faith? (faith without good works is dead)

if you have great faith and your good works leads you to join your church in protesting gay rights at the funerals of US war dead, are you still saved?

if you feel that you DO have faith, but look at yourself (after a while), and see that you do NO good works, are you still saved? is there something wrong about your faith? (faith without good works is dead)

if you have great faith and your good works leads you to join your church in protesting gay rights at the funerals of US war dead, are you still saved?

Sorry to repaet myself but I don't think I can say this as well a second time.

Originally Posted by Elite Battle Hordes
Faith without works is dead. Work is proof of living faith. It is a simple concept; those who know Christ will be motivated to do good. So, those who don't do good must not know Christ.


Not necessarily. We are still human, and we still sin. We can stumble and sin grievously so that we appear to no longer ove Christ, but we still know Him and will come back to Him: salvation is irrevocable. Also, there are sins of ignorance.

Finally, because all our actions, thoughts, desires, etc. are tainted by sin, none of them are truly good. Some are better than others, but none are truly good. So no one does good.

Finally, because all our actions, thoughts, desires, etc. are tainted by sin, none of them are truly good. Some are better than others, but none are truly good. So no one does good.

In that view - correct. However, someone who only has faith but chooses to do no works is hurting, or at least taking advantage of, his fellow men. One can argue he is in fact doing evil.

Sorry to repaet myself but I don't think I can say this as well a second time.

Originally Posted by Elite Battle Hordes
Faith without works is dead. Work is proof of living faith. It is a simple concept; those who know Christ will be motivated to do good. So, those who don't do good must not know Christ.


Not necessarily. We are still human, and we still sin. We can stumble and sin grievously so that we appear to no longer ove Christ, but we still know Him and will come back to Him: salvation is irrevocable. Also, there are sins of ignorance.

Finally, because all our actions, thoughts, desires, etc. are tainted by sin, none of them are truly good. Some are better than others, but none are truly good. So no one does good.

so you think that james was wrong and that good works doesnt come into it at all?

i can be a good christian even though my faith leads me to ..... convert "primitive" people at sword point?

can i still go to heaven even though i committ willful murder after being "saved", even if it dont repent of it before i die?

so you think that james was wrong and that good works doesnt come into it at all?

i can be a good christian even though my faith leads me to ..... convert "primitive" people at sword point?

can i still go to heaven even though i committ willful murder after being "saved", even if it dont repent of it before i die?
I think that James was right, but is often misinterpreted, does that count?

In that view - correct. However, someone who only has faith but chooses to do no works is hurting, or at least taking advantage of, his fellow men. One can argue he is in fact doing evil.

True, Christians can and do do evil. Their sin is greater because they know better. Their judgment will be horrible, but Christ's sacrifice will lead them to repent and be forgiven.

so you think that james was wrong and that good works doesnt come into it at all?

i can be a good christian even though my faith leads me to ..... convert "primitive" people at sword point?

can i still go to heaven even though i committ willful murder after being "saved", even if it dont repent of it before i die?

James was speaking to an audience that believed that Faith would save you so why not do absolutely anything. And he was right to correct them.

However, the popular view today is that neither faith nor works matter. If we teach faith, then works will follow. This doesn't mean that we sin no more. I sin all the time. And I will be judged for that sin, but I will be forgiven because of my faith.

Repentance is both a one-time and an ongoing action. You repent once from your life of sin and turn to God. When this happens you are saved. But you still repent from individual sins beacuse you also turn to good works as a result of the faith that comes with the one-time repentance.

I think that James was right, but is often misinterpreted, does that count?

Oh yes! Look at the Roman Catholics! I love them dearly, but they are very mistaken on this issue.

Oh yes! Look at the Roman Catholics! I love them dearly, but they are very mistaken on this issue.
what brand-o-Christian are you?

True, Christians can and do do evil. Thier sin is greater because they know better. Their judgment will be horrible, but Christ's sacrifice will lead them to repent and be forgiven.

Just because they had faith ?
Lets look at the extremes.

Person A does not believe in God at all and spends none of his time worshipping. He however always has a friendly word for everyone and aids those in need - sometimes at considerable expense to himself. He de facto supports a few dozen people. He simply does this because it makes him feel good.

Person B spends all his time on his knees praising God. Of course, this leaves him no time to actually do any work, so he relies on person A to provide for him. Nor does he have time to aid others.

To me, person A is more worthy of heaven than person B. In fact, I am hesitant to consider person B worthy at all.

Just because they had faith ?
Lets look at the extremes.

Person A does not believe in God at all and spends none of his time worshipping. He however always has a friendly word for everyone and aids those in need - sometimes at considerable expense to himself. He de facto supports a few dozen people. He simply does this because it makes him feel good.

Person B spends all his time on his knees praising God. Of course, this leaves him no time to actually do any work, so he relies on person A to provide for him. Nor does he have time to aid others.

To me, person A is more worthy of heaven than person B. In fact, I am hesitant to consider person B worthy at all.]

sure but you are attaching your own rules to heaven, and it's not your decision to make.

All have sinned, the payment for sin is death, the gift of life is free through Jesus Christ.

]

sure but you are attaching your own rules to heaven, and it's not your decision to make.

Correct. However I can decide that a God who would not allow person A but would allow person B into heaven is not worthy of my worship.

Just a side question.

Is this your first post because of the topic, or would you have posted anyway?

I try not to post on forums unless I have something worth adding that hasn't been said already, and if I have time - which I usually don't. I don't get to the forum much, newer to Nationstates, etc., but I have to be interested in the topic.

So, I'd say this was a good topic that happened to be there the same time I was.

Correct. However I can decide that a God who would not allow person A but would allow person B into heaven is not worthy of my worship.
yeah, but you will go to hell right?

James was speaking to an audience that believed that Faith would save you so why not do absolutely anything. And he was right to correct them.

However, the popular view today is that neither faith nor works matter. If we teach faith, then works will follow. This doesn't mean that we sin no more. I sin all the time. And I will be judged for that sin, but I will be forgiven because of my faith.

Repentance is both a one-time and an ongoing action. You repent once from your life of sin and turn to God. When this happens you are saved. But you still repent from individual sins beacuse you also turn to good works as a result of the faith that comes with the one-time repentance.
seems to me that you ARE jame's audience. you do actually seem to think that you can do anything and it doesnt matter, you faith has saved you.

i find the gospels to be FULL of instructions from jesus telling us how we must behave as christians. where did HE say that all you have to do is believe and you get in?

he told the adultress to sin no more
he told the rich man that his faith wasnt good enough, he had to sell everything he had, give the proceeds to the poor and go with jesus.
he said whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers that you do unto me, but he didnt follow it with "but thats ok because all i ask from you is faith"

if you feel that you DO have faith, but look at yourself (after a while), and see that you do NO good works, are you still saved? is there something wrong about your faith? (faith without good works is dead)

if you have great faith and your good works leads you to join your church in protesting gay rights at the funerals of US war dead, are you still saved?


1) Still saved. IMO - The phrase "faith without good works is dead" doesn't mean not saved. It just means not active, not helping others etc.

2) Not sure I understand this question. I wouldn't consider joining a church or protesting as necessarily being good or bad works. Still saved. Maybe I should elaborate on the FAITH part, as meaning FAITH in GOD including the FAITH in Christ and his saving us via his death on the cross for our sins. This doesn't allow for a specific circumstance for you to come up with where works would override that.

seems to me that you ARE jame's audience. you do actually seem to think that you can do anything and it doesnt matter, you faith has saved you.

i find the gospels to be FULL of instructions from jesus telling us how we must behave as christians. where did HE say that all you have to do is believe and you get in?

he told the adultress to sin no more
he told the rich man that his faith wasnt good enough, he had to sell everything he had, give the proceeds to the poor and go with jesus.
he said whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers that you do unto me, but he didnt follow it with "but thats ok because all i ask from you is faith"

I don't agree that the gospels are full of instructions from Jesus on how to behave as Christians in order to be save. I do think HE says all you have to do is believe in him and accept him as your savior to be saved, but I don't have a Bible with me to look it up right now. He still wants us to do the right things, but that doesn't mean we have to in order to be saved - we don't earn our way to heaven.

1) Still saved. IMO - The phrase "faith without good works is dead" doesn't mean not saved. It just means not active, not helping others etc.

2) Not sure I understand this question. I wouldn't consider joining a church or protesting as necessarily being good or bad works. Still saved. Maybe I should elaborate on the FAITH part, as meaning FAITH in GOD including the FAITH in Christ and his saving us via his death on the cross for our sins. This doesn't allow for a specific circumstance for you to come up with where works would override that.
so in your opinion there is NO sin that you could committ that would end you up in hell. all you have to do is have said the magic phrase "i accept jesus christ as my personal lord and savior" and you are IN. no questions asked.

you can go out beating up gay people for jesus every weekend, god is FINE with that. you still get into heaven

why did jesus bother with the parables and the sermon on the mount at all? why didnt he just raise a few guys from the dead, walk on water, give out the magic phrase and call it good?

I don't agree that the gospels are full of instructions from Jesus on how to behave as Christians in order to be save. I do think HE says all you have to do is believe in him and accept him as your savior to be saved, but I don't have a Bible with me to look it up right now. He still wants us to do the right things, but that doesn't mean we have to in order to be saved - we don't earn our way to heaven.
good luck with that

i think you are taking the religiously easy way out. the way that leads you to be self satisified instead of the way that makes you wonder if you are being a good christian. i dont see a reason for all those things to have been put into the bible if you werent going to be expected to live that way.

so in your opinion there is NO sin that you could committ that would end you up in hell. all you have to do is have said the magic phrase "i accept jesus christ as my personal lord and savior" and you are IN. no questions asked.

you can go out beating up gay people for jesus every weekend, god is FINE with that. you still get into heaven

why did jesus bother with the parables and the sermon on the mount at all? why didnt he just raise a few guys from the dead, walk on water, give out the magic phrase and call it good?
faith leads to love and love to obedience. If you love Christ then you follow his commandments out of obedience, if you truely believe that Christ died for you, then you will love him (who wouldn't love someone who laid down His life for you)

it's all connected.

faith as in belief isn't enough, Satan believes there is a God, heck he knows it, but still he is in hell, because he doesn't have the right kind of faith, the faith that leads to love.

okay, I am done with this thred.

"Faith or Works?"

Yes.

Actually, I would recommend a three-pronged approach: faith, study, and practice. After all, what good is faith that produces misguided works?

Actually, I would recommend a three-pronged approach: faith, study, and practice. After all, what good is faith that produces misguided works?
oh thats a very good point. id have to agree. without study, how DO you know what is correct?

Faith.

Faith without works is meaningless.

Works without faith is still pretty helpful.

I'll take works.

Works for me.

It's kind of like lightning and thunder. Having thunder without lightning would be meaningless. Yet, if you say you have lightning but don't have any thunder, you don't really have lightning.

what brand-o-Christian are you?

My brand? That's a new label.

I'm somewhere between a traditionalist and a conservative Presbyterian. I agreee with traditionals on everything except the ordination of women, which I support.

If denomination matters to you, I am a very, very, very unhappy member of the Presbyterian Church (USA).

Just because they had faith ?
Lets look at the extremes.

Person A does not believe in God at all and spends none of his time worshipping. He however always has a friendly word for everyone and aids those in need - sometimes at considerable expense to himself. He de facto supports a few dozen people. He simply does this because it makes him feel good.

Person B spends all his time on his knees praising God. Of course, this leaves him no time to actually do any work, so he relies on person A to provide for him. Nor does he have time to aid others.

To me, person A is more worthy of heaven than person B. In fact, I am hesitant to consider person B worthy at all.

The problem is that you forget that neither is worthy of heaven! They are both horrible sinners who deserve to be damned to eternal fire. But, becuase of Person B's faith (which is a gift from God, not an action on B's part) he will be saved, though it may appear to human eyes that Person A is doing better visible things, which he is. I use the word better because there really is no such thing as good in human nature.

seems to me that you ARE jame's audience. you do actually seem to think that you can do anything and it doesnt matter, you faith has saved you.

i find the gospels to be FULL of instructions from jesus telling us how we must behave as christians. where did HE say that all you have to do is believe and you get in?

he told the adultress to sin no more
he told the rich man that his faith wasnt good enough, he had to sell everything he had, give the proceeds to the poor and go with jesus.
he said whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers that you do unto me, but he didnt follow it with "but thats ok because all i ask from you is faith"

I never said that I thought you are allowed to do whatever you want. (I say allowed: may and can are two different things :) ) Again, if you are saved, then you will have good works! But the works are not what saves you; they are the result of being saved. The reason Moses, Joshua, Elijah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and most importantly Jesus said "Do not _____" was because we constantly need to be reminded not to do it! We are sinners, and we love our sin, though we hate it. And if you are one of those persons who believe that Paul was an idiot, then I have no verses for you at this time. But if you do believe Paul to be divinely inspired, then read Ephesians 2:8,9.

My brand? That's a new label.

I'm somewhere between a traditionalist and a conservative Presbyterian. I agreee with traditionals on everything except the ordination of women, which I support.

If denomination matters to you, I am a very, very, very unhappy member of the Presbyterian Church (USA).
it doesn't matter I was just curious, you and I seem to meet in the middle a lot and I was wondering what "brand" you were. LOL

I don't like the word denomination because it makes me think of money, and I think brand is funny too, like we could all check the tags in our shirts and be like "oh, yeah, I am <insert offshoot of Christianity>" it's a funny mental picture for me. sorry. ;)

so in your opinion there is NO sin that you could committ that would end you up in hell. all you have to do is have said the magic phrase "i accept jesus christ as my personal lord and savior" and you are IN. no questions asked.

you can go out beating up gay people for jesus every weekend, god is FINE with that. you still get into heaven

why did jesus bother with the parables and the sermon on the mount at all? why didnt he just raise a few guys from the dead, walk on water, give out the magic phrase and call it good?

You miss the point entirely.
NO ONE IS GOOD!!!!!
WE ARE ALL SINNERS!!!!
EVERY SIN EARNS SPIRITUAL DEATH!!!!
If you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior (saying and doing are two different things!) you are saved, forever.
Because you are saved and you love Jesus and want to serve Him, you follow His commands. BUt do you disappoint those humans whom you love? Of course, and how much more are you going to disappoint a perfect God? Infinitely!
That does not change that you are saved by grace through faith. Indeed, you should sin less and less the longer you are a Christian. But you are still a sinful little dust bunny and you will willfully commit sins against God and man until your death. Then you will be judged. Hopefully and Prayerfully, Jesus will say that He died for you and that your horrendous life is forgiven because in your faith you called Him "Lord."

it doesn't matter I was just curious, you and I seem to meet in the middle a lot and I was wondering what "brand" you were. LOL

I don't like the word denomination because it makes me think of money, and I think brand is funny too, like we could all check the tags in our shirts and be like "oh, yeah, I am <insert offshoot of Christianity>" it's a funny mental picture for me. sorry. ;)

You have nothing for which to be sorry!

Denomination is exactly like money. The big idea is money. A quater is a division of money. So is a one dollar bill. Just the same with Christianity.

You miss the point entirely.
NO ONE IS GOOD!!!!!
WE ARE ALL SINNERS!!!!
EVERY SIN EARNS SPIRITUAL DEATH!!!!
If you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior (saying and doing are two different things!) you are saved, forever.
Because you are saved and you love Jesus and want to serve Him, you follow His commands. BUt do you disappoint those humans whom you love? Of course, and how much more are you going to disappoint a perfect God? Infinitely!
That does not change that you are saved by grace through faith. Indeed, you should sin less and less the longer you are a Christian. But you are still a sinful little dust bunny and you will willfully commit sins against God and man until your death. Then you will be judged. Hopefully and Prayerfully, Jesus will say that He died for you and that your horrendous life is forgiven because in your faith you called Him "Lord."
So what if you're doing what Jesus commanded but don't believe in God?

So what if you're doing what Jesus commanded but don't believe in God?
Matthew 7:21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

An age old question. It divided the Catholic Church and spawned many many new forms of Christianity (Don't bother mentioning Indulgences, everyone agrees that it was wrong). I want to know the general view on this debate. What do you belive is essential to Salvation. Faith?, Works?, or something else? Express your wisdom and lets see.

Neither: Sheol is what awaits us all. Except I am an Atheist, so...
You know what? Sheol is pretty much just another way of saying nothingness.

to say thatr either faith or works is essential for religion is wrong, many people use it as an excuse to kill each other:sniper:

We're all screwed. Just deal with it.
Better to feel good about shit you do daily, and forget about this heaven and hell stuff, then to worry about being on your knees for some great allmighty. In the end, if it all exists, and you did well for yourself and others, you'll get in no matter what.

At least, that's how it SHOULD work.
I don't like religion.

I never said that I thought you are allowed to do whatever you want. (I say allowed: may and can are two different things :) ) Again, if you are saved, then you will have good works! But the works are not what saves you; they are the result of being saved. The reason Moses, Joshua, Elijah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and most importantly Jesus said "Do not _____" was because we constantly need to be reminded not to do it! We are sinners, and we love our sin, though we hate it. And if you are one of those persons who believe that Paul was an idiot, then I have no verses for you at this time. But if you do believe Paul to be divinely inspired, then read Ephesians 2:8,9.
well i believe you are splitting hairs with me

i say you must do good works

you say that any christian WILL do good works naturally as a consequence of being saved (i dont find that to be true but we wont worry about that now)

since both stances end up with good works being done, ill call it equal.

Matthew 7:21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
see now that quote alone says to me that faith is NOT enough. if your faith doesnt change your life and cause you to behave as is outlined by jesus in the gospels, you wont get in.

see now that quote alone says to me that faith is NOT enough. if your faith doesnt change your life and cause you to behave as is outlined by jesus in the gospels, you wont get in.
see and it says to me that good works are not enough, you must have a relationship with Jesus and all the good stuff you do isn't going to change that. Being good is nice, but it's not a replacement for a personal relationship with Christ, and it never will be.

see and it says to me that good works are not enough, you must have a relationship with Jesus and all the good stuff you do isn't going to change that. Being good is nice, but it's not a replacement for a personal relationship with Christ, and it never will be.
well yes, but you need BOTH. if your faith doesnt lead you to correct behavior, its dead.

to me yelling "lord lord" means you have faith but there are certain people whose faith will not bring them to heaven. even if they have faith so strong that they cast out demons in the lords name!

what he is supposing that they did wrong i have no idea. i suppose that varies from person to person. i would think that your best bet, as a christian, is to follow the guildlines set up by jesus in the gospels.

i agree that you cant buy your way into heaven either with money or with good works. but the flip side, where all sin is so grievous to god that ONLY faith gets you and and no BAD works will ever disqualify a believer is equally wrong.

although we are commanded to good works so while they dont guarantee your way in, they are a requirement for the trip

This is the view as I understand it

You are saved by your faith (IE that you accept you are a sinner and believe that God saves you through Jesus Christ). You arnt saved by your works directly, but works are a 'symptom' (for want of a better word) of true faith. Hence its both and not both. If you dont have works you dont have faith.

well yes, but you need BOTH. if your faith doesnt lead you to correct behavior, its dead.

to me yelling "lord lord" means you have faith but there are certain people whose faith will not bring them to heaven. even if they have faith so strong that they cast out demons in the lords name!

what he is supposing that they did wrong i have no idea. i suppose that varies from person to person. i would think that your best bet, as a christian, is to follow the guildlines set up by jesus in the gospels.

i agree that you cant buy your way into heaven either with money or with good works. but the flip side, where all sin is so grievous to god that ONLY faith gets you and and no BAD works will ever disqualify a believer is equally wrong.

although we are commanded to good works so while they dont guarantee your way in, they are a requirement for the trip

oh, see I read it like the typical thing I hear from people

"of course she is going to heaven, she taught Sunday School, and she always carried that big Bible around, and she led people to Christ, and you know she was always so nice."

nothing about their spiritual life, nothing about their Christian walk, just a bunch of stuff they did that people think will make God happy.

oh, see I read it like the typical thing I hear from people

"of course she is going to heaven, she taught Sunday School, and she always carried that big Bible around, and she led people to Christ, and you know she was always so nice."

nothing about their spiritual life, nothing about their Christian walk, just a bunch of stuff they did that people think will make God happy.
because you cant buy your way into heaven.

but you also cant have faith and act like a pig and think that you are still guaranteed a spot

like the pious rich guy who bragged about just what a great practioner of the faith he was. he asks jesus what HE would have to do to get into heaven. (thinking probably that jesus would say he had it all covered). when jesus tell him what to DO, he walks away. because there are things he was not prepared to change in order to follow jesus, the rest of it didnt matter, he failed. it wasnt a failure of faith, it was a failure of practice.

One of my favorite priests said, "you can talk all you want, what you do is what matters."

As he explained it, to say you believe and then do nothing indicates that you really don't believe, because if you really did believe, you would act on it.

He seemed to feel that people who chose works over faith were actually more faithful. Their works demonstrated their truth.

because you cant buy your way into heaven.

but you also cant have faith and act like a pig and think that you are still guaranteed a spot

like the pious rich guy who bragged about just what a great practioner of the faith he was. he asks jesus what HE would have to do to get into heaven. (thinking probably that jesus would say he had it all covered). when jesus tell him what to DO, he walks away. because there are things he was not prepared to change in order to follow jesus, the rest of it didnt matter, he failed. it wasnt a failure of faith, it was a failure of practice.
I would still say it was a failure of faith, believing isn't enough, it's a start, but it's not the only thing that I mean when I talk about faith, true faith not only believes that Jesus died for you, but is obedient to Him. You can not work your way into heaven, nor can you BS your way past the gate, true undying commitment to Christ is the only way, and doing a half ass job of "yeah, I believe, but I ain't doing the lay down my life stuff" isn't real faith, it's trying to do the bare minimum. God wants your best not your leftovers. The parable about the two women, where one gave her all and the other gave a small portion shows us that Jesus values someone who will unselfishly give of themselves to Him out of love and obedience.

Accept- that you are a sinner, and the punishment for sin is death
Believe- that Christ died for your sins and will forgive you
Confess- confess your sins to God and seek that forgiveness
Dedicate- your life to Him, laying down your own desires to obey His teachings

these are the ABC's of Salvation, not one of them is "do a bunch of good stuff and look nice for the atheists so that they won't call you a hypocrite"

faith or works...interesting question, but I think it has to do a lot with what your definitions of faith and works are...I think a lot of what the bible talks about works is not what we think of now.

Today, we think think of works as like being a good person and all, but when the bible was written, remember that people would still sacrifice goats on alters to God, and those were considered works.

I think a lot of when the bible refers to works, they are refering to old outdated ideals of, well, sacrificing goats, or other crazy rituals, that no one does any more, not the kind of works we think of today, just being a good person and all.

I'm quite sure that one can get into heaven just by being a good person, even if they are confused with what religion is the right one. Why would a loving God send a good loving person to hell just because while on Earth, they wern't sure about God's existance. In the afterlife you will know weather or not God really is real. If it turns out he is real, why would he want to seperate a loving, good person from him, just because he wasn't quite sure about God's existance during the earth-life?

I'll have more on this later, good subject.

What do you belive is essential to Salvation. Faith?, Works?, or something else?

From my understanding, the Vaishnavist (and almost all Hindu) perspective is that, although mukthi (roughly salvation) comes only through faith and works, you will still enjoy the karma of your good deeds for your works even if you don't have faith. But sadhana - spiritual works - are prescribed as the best way to attain mukthi.

In my personal view, a faithless atheist doing good works is a better devotee inspite of not being a believer than a believer ignoring suffering around him. By doing good, he shows love and if that is not spiritual, I dunno what is.....

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

It would seem to me that faith is definitely more important than works, for works without faith in God are being done for the wrong reasons, with vanity and self-interest as its' core motivations. All good works should be done for the glorification of God, not the self.


*climbs back off his soapbox*

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

It would seem to me that faith is definitely more important than works, for works without faith in God are being done for the wrong reasons, with vanity and self-interest as its' core motivations. All good works should be done for the glorification of God, not the self.


*climbs back off his soapbox*

and who could argue with you after those very telling citations?

like 99% faith 1% works. I beleive that faith is the only thing that can get you into heaven. Works are some what involved as you should try and do the will of God while on earth. But i know that works will not get you into heaven. And thats the right way, because I said so, and God Told me it was right..So now what..booyah

I think that faith, placed wisely in a belief is a powerful thing. The problem is that unless belief is absolutely sincere it is worthless. The other problem is that even amongst religious congregations absolute sincerity is a rare commodity. With absolute sincerity it doesn’t matter what you believe in: yourself, a religion, a warrior code, an altar made from Lego; it works, so long as you believe with absolute sincerity.

The Bruce

So what if you're doing what Jesus commanded but don't believe in God?

It's wonderful that you're doing what God/Jesus commanded, but if your motive is not to serve God, then it is not truly a good act. It's only good if you're doing it because God commanded you to. It's good to help your neighbor because God wants you to.

Only those who believe in God have that motive, though it is mixed with other motives. This mixture turns works from bad to better. But the sin present prevents the work from being good.

well i believe you are splitting hairs with me

i say you must do good works

you say that any christian WILL do good works naturally as a consequence of being saved (i dont find that to be true but we wont worry about that now)

since both stances end up with good works being done, ill call it equal.


The problem with works being part of salvation and not the natural result is that then you are earning salvation, which Scripture makes quite clear you cannot.

This is the view as I understand it

You are saved by your faith (IE that you accept you are a sinner and believe that God saves you through Jesus Christ). You arnt saved by your works directly, but works are a 'symptom' (for want of a better word) of true faith. Hence its both and not both. If you dont have works you dont have faith.

Exactly!!!!! Works are a symptom of faith! That's the word for which I've been searching for the past three days. I just never thought of it. I hate it when that happens. Such a common word, too.

The problem with works being part of salvation and not the natural result is that then you are earning salvation, which Scripture makes quite clear you cannot.
yes

as much as it makes it quite clear that if your faith doesnt result in changed behavior resulting in good works, you do not qualfiy for salvation.

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

It would seem to me that faith is definitely more important than works, for works without faith in God are being done for the wrong reasons, with vanity and self-interest as its' core motivations. All good works should be done for the glorification of God, not the self.


*climbs back off his soapbox*

*Applause and cheers*

An age old question. It divided the Catholic Church and spawned many many new forms of Christianity (Don't bother mentioning Indulgences, everyone agrees that it was wrong). I want to know the general view on this debate. What do you belive is essential to Salvation. Faith?, Works?, or something else? Express your wisdom and lets see.
I'm an atheist. I don't believe in salvation. What I believe is that you have to live your life in the best, most productive way you can, because your time here on earth is all you got, so enjoy it while it lasts.

yes

as much as it makes it quite clear that if your faith doesnt result in changed behavior resulting in good works, you do not qualfiy for salvation.

However, we all stumble. So you can fall into "grievous" sin (to use the Westminster Standard term) and still be saved. God will not allow any person who has declared Him his Lord to fall, though for reasons beyond our comprehension, He will allow us to fall back into sin for a time. After He pulls us back out though, we had better be doing even more "good" works than before.

I'm an atheist. I don't believe in salvation. What I believe is that you have to live your life in the best, most productive way you can, because your time here on earth is all you got, so enjoy it while it lasts.

I don't mean to drag you into a God vs. no God debate, but what determines that you are living life in the best most productive way you can?

Smunkeeville, I'm just curious. What's your "brand-o-Christian?"

yes

as much as it makes it quite clear that if your faith doesnt result in changed behavior resulting in good works, you do not qualfiy for salvation.
I am not aware of a verse that says that you don't qualify for salvation if you don't do "good works"

I am curious though what you mean by faith, faith is more than belief, I know many people who have faith that there is a God, but do not have faith in God, and having faith in God is what leads to good works for the right reason, faith in God can save you, works and a faith that there is a God, won't.

Smunkeeville, I'm just curious. What's your "brand-o-Christian?"
Southern Baptist.

I would like to know where we (southern baptists) and the presby's don't meet up though, since every Presbyterian I have ever met seems to be on the same page as me. (I mean doctrinally, and not in church policy)

I hate to just give "my opinion" so I figure I'll give the Bible opinion, and just comment a bit. First up, from Ephesians 2:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (vs 8)

So, it's faith, right? Well, grace through faith. So we don't need works, right?

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (vs 9)"

Maybe not. Sounds like we were saved by grace thorugh faith for the purpose of good works. Lets try the other way around a minute. Next up: James 2.

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?" (vs. 14)

Sounds exactly like your question to me! So, what's the answer?

"If a brother or sister is poorly clothesd and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also, faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." (vs. 15-16)

So is the answer works? Read on.

"But someone will say, 'you have faith, and I have works.' Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (vs. 17)

Or not.

So my summary would be: We are saved by grace, through faith, unto works. You can't seperate them, or they mean nothing.

Southern Baptist.

I would like to know where we (southern baptists) and the presby's don't meet up though, since every Presbyterian I have ever met seems to be on the same page as me. (I mean doctrinally, and not in church policy)

I think it's more geography than doctrine. Most churches with Presbyterian in the name originated in Scotland or were founded by Scottish immigrants or missionaries. I'm not sure how the Baptists were started.

I think also that most Presbyterian churches ok infant baptism. I don't. But, I think (correct me if needed) that Baptists are for Confessor's baptism only (is that the correct term?).

I hate to just give "my opinion" so I figure I'll give the Bible opinion, and just comment a bit. First up, from Ephesians 2:



So, it's faith, right? Well, grace through faith. So we don't need works, right?



Maybe not. Sounds like we were saved by grace thorugh faith for the purpose of good works. Lets try the other way around a minute. Next up: James 2.



Sounds exactly like your question to me! So, what's the answer?



So is the answer works? Read on.



Or not.

So my summary would be: We are saved by grace, through faith, unto works. You can't seperate them, or they mean nothing.

I agree with you, but you did separate them. Reread your prepositions. They weren't conjunctions.

I think it's more geography than doctrine. Most churches with Presbyterian in the name originated in Scotland or were founded by Scottish immigrants or missionaries. I'm not sure how the Baptists were started.

I think also that most Presbyterian churches ok infant baptism. I don't. But, I think (correct me if needed) that Baptists are for Confessor's baptism only (is that the correct term?).
yeah, that would be a difference.
We believe that baptism is something you do out of obedience to Jesus and also to show your new commitment, so it's not really something a baby could do (since they aren't aware of what it means) and wouldn't mean anything other than the kid got wet. Do Presbyterians do immersion baptism or sprinkly kind? (have no clue what the proper terminology is with the sprinkly kind, but I am going to assume since you baptise babys you probably don't dunk them?)

I would like to know where we (southern baptists) and the presby's don't meet up though, since every Presbyterian I have ever met seems to be on the same page as me. (I mean doctrinally, and not in church policy)

Kinda off topic, but I can give you more answer to this question than you'll ever really want to know, just tell me when to shut up. ;) For here, just a short summary.

Obviously, Southern Baptists and Presbyterians vary drastically within each group. There are some flaming liberals in each, and some stick-in-the-mud conservatives. And a large middle population. For the average, there's not really too much theological difference. Most of it stems from... (get this)... baptism. Not just the mode (dunking vs. pouring vs. sprinkling) but what it actually means. To a baptist, children are not really part of the church. You have to make a profession of faith and be baptized before you're part of the Covenant. To a presbyterian, children are absolutely part of the church, and included in the covenant. (To a catholic, not only are they part of the church and covenant, but they are automatically saved because of their baptism. It is worth noting that this is NOT the presbyterian view.) It is impressive the actual differences that stem from this difference in the way we believe that God deals with his people.

yeah, that would be a difference.
We believe that baptism is something you do out of obedience to Jesus and also to show your new commitment, so it's not really something a baby could do (since they aren't aware of what it means) and wouldn't mean anything other than the kid got wet. Do Presbyterians do immersion baptism or sprinkly kind? (have no clue what the proper terminology is with the sprinkly kind, but I am going to assume since you baptise babys you probably don't dunk them?)

We sprinkle. I'm not really sure why. It's obvious that you can't dunk babies, as you pointed out. I'm not sure why we don't dunk adults and teens, though.

I agree with you, but you did separate them. Reread your prepositions. They weren't conjunctions.

Eh, not sure I understand what you mean. Mostly I just seperated because most people won't read a huge bible passage unless it's broken up into sound bites. Even then, many won't read it anyway. :-)

Incidentally, I'm on your side... Smunkee better watch out or I'll find myself a new patron saint to say what I think.

Kinda off topic, but I can give you more answer to this question than you'll ever really want to know, just tell me when to shut up. ;) For here, just a short summary.

Obviously, Southern Baptists and Presbyterians vary drastically within each group. There are some flaming liberals in each, and some stick-in-the-mud conservatives. And a large middle population. For the average, there's not really too much theological difference. Most of it stems from... (get this)... baptism. Not just the mode (dunking vs. pouring vs. sprinkling) but what it actually means. To a baptist, children are not really part of the church. You have to make a profession of faith and be baptized before you're part of the Covenant. To a presbyterian, children are absolutely part of the church, and included in the covenant. (To a catholic, not only are they part of the church and covenant, but they are automatically saved because of their baptism. It is worth noting that this is NOT the presbyterian view.) It is impressive the actual differences that stem from this difference in the way we believe that God deals with his people.
Children are a part of the church in the sense that they are taught about the Bible, have activities and can be members of Sunday school, they can't be acutal full members of the church without a profession of faith, it doesn't make sense to us why you would want non-Christians to be voting members in your church (sounds kinda cruel, but I think I have the right to be blunt)

I have found that most people who are different denominations than I do have very different beliefs about baptism, my husband for example grew up church of Christ and didn't believe that you could be truely saved without baptism, until I questioned him about the man getting crucified next to Christ, and then he realized that they didn't hop off the crosses for baptism, but that Jesus said that he would be with Him today in paradise, it's not like Jesus wouldn't know the rules right?

okay, I don't want to hear from the "but, you don't know exactly what was really really said because you weren't there" because I don't like that conversation, you won't like my answer, but in case you are wondering, I believe that the current version of the Bible is about the best we can hope for and I have faith that it's pretty accurate, and no, I don't base that faith on anything but faith. (see I told you guys you wouldn't like my answer ;))

I'm quite sure that one can get into heaven just by being a good person, even if they are confused with what religion is the right one. Why would a loving God send a good loving person to hell just because while on Earth, they wern't sure about God's existance. In the afterlife you will know weather or not God really is real. If it turns out he is real, why would he want to seperate a loving, good person from him, just because he wasn't quite sure about God's existance during the earth-life?That's what I think too.

It would seem to me that faith is definitely more important than works, for works without faith in God are being done for the wrong reasons, with vanity and self-interest as its' core motivations. All good works should be done for the glorification of God, not the self.So no good work done for *any* reason other than the belief in a God (mind, that cannot even so much as be rationally provable) is evil? Nice one. If an atheist does 'good' acts, doing his best to improve the lives of those around him with little regard for personal cost because he loves them, the acts are evil? That the acts have vanity and selfinterest as their core motivations? I think that you are wrong in assuming that this is the case for all such works, or even the majority.

It's wonderful that you're doing what God/Jesus commanded, but if your motive is not to serve God, then it is not truly a good act. It's only good if you're doing it because God commanded you to. It's good to help your neighbor because God wants you to.

Only those who believe in God have that motive, though it is mixed with other motives. This mixture turns works from bad to better. But the sin present prevents the work from being good.If you're obeying, you're not doing a work based on whether or not it is something good or evil. You're just obeying, nothing more and nothing less. It seems to me that the value of an act would be increased if the person doing it knew what they were doing and did it anyway, for the sole reason that it is a good thing to do, than for someone doing it just because they were told to. Certaintly, I have more respect for the person that chose to do it on their own volition.

So my summary would be: We are saved by grace, through faith, unto works. You can't seperate them, or they mean nothing.Thanks, I think that's the most reasonable explanation I've seen in this thread. :)

Kinda off topic, but I can give you more answer to this question than you'll ever really want to know, just tell me when to shut up. ;) For here, just a short summary.

Obviously, Southern Baptists and Presbyterians vary drastically within each group. There are some flaming liberals in each, and some stick-in-the-mud conservatives. And a large middle population. For the average, there's not really too much theological difference. Most of it stems from... (get this)... baptism. Not just the mode (dunking vs. pouring vs. sprinkling) but what it actually means. To a baptist, children are not really part of the church. You have to make a profession of faith and be baptized before you're part of the Covenant. To a presbyterian, children are absolutely part of the church, and included in the covenant. (To a catholic, not only are they part of the church and covenant, but they are automatically saved because of their baptism. It is worth noting that this is NOT the presbyterian view.) It is impressive the actual differences that stem from this difference in the way we believe that God deals with his people.

I have to disagree with you on Prebyterians. You are a member of the covenant if you are able to Christ as your Lord and Savior and have done so. If you are unable to do that (you have mental problems, too young, etc.) then you are saved according to God's election. Generally, it is believed that God elects to save all those unable to make a choice, but I haven't studied that as much as I ought to have. You can however be a Presbyterian and refuse to baptize those in your family unable to choose. In my opinion you ought to. It's that person's choice, not mine.

Eh, not sure I understand what you mean. Mostly I just seperated because most people won't read a huge bible passage unless it's broken up into sound bites. Even then, many won't read it anyway. :-)

Incidentally, I'm on your side... Smunkee better watch out or I'll find myself a new patron saint to say what I think.
ah, but I think I mostly agree with Vellia too, so you should just keep me ;)


what brand-o-Christian are you qwysteria?

We sprinkle. I'm not really sure why. It's obvious that you can't dunk babies, as you pointed out. I'm not sure why we don't dunk adults and teens, though.

You sound like a baptist at heart, at least on the baptism counts.

We do it because we actually believe that sprinkling is the original AND intended means of baptism. The fact is, if you look at where it says John was baptising (and Jesus, for that matter) in order to "dunk" someone in the water, you'd kinda have to lie them down, flip them over, and swish 'em around to make sure they got all wet. There just isn't enough water to walk out there waist-deep and dunk 'em. Except, of course, in flood season. But then if you went out, you'd never be seen again, except perhaps a hundred miles downstream as a corpse. Not to mention that there are other places that "baptism" is used in temple worship. For example, a bird that was "baptized" in it's own blood. I don't see how you could dunk that... maybe dip it a bit, but there's not enough blood in the bird to immerse it fully. The symbolism attending to the whole thing is far too complicated for what ought to be much shorter posts than I manage already

ah, but I think I mostly agree with Vellia too, so you should just keep me ;)


what brand-o-Christian are you qwysteria?

*checks her shirt tag* Land's End... oh wait... Presbyterian. Orthodox Presbyterian, to be precice, but that probably means nothing to you. It's about on par with the most conservative wing of the PCUSA for Vellia.

And I think I"ll just keep you. You're so eloquent and kind even when you're right. :-D Much nicer than I would be.

Eh, not sure I understand what you mean. Mostly I just seperated because most people won't read a huge bible passage unless it's broken up into sound bites. Even then, many won't read it anyway. :-)

Incidentally, I'm on your side... Smunkee better watch out or I'll find myself a new patron saint to say what I think.

You said: by grace, through faith, unto works. You did separate what roles these play in salvation. I can't say that works are an inseparable part of salvation, but they are inseparably tied into it.

And you're not on my side, you're on God's side. :)

I'm a picky person. I don't mean to focus so much on details but I do.

I suppose that, as a Protestant, my views would be fairly obvious. While "Faith without works is dead," one cannot be saved by works. None of us are good enough to qualify for heaven. Thereby, it is God's mercy, and our faith in God's mercy, that grant us salvation. Works are a result of this faith and if one truly loves God, one will live as God has deemed one ought.

I suppose that, as a Protestant, my views would be fairly obvious. While "Faith without works is dead," one cannot be saved by works. None of us are good enough to qualify for heaven. Thereby, it is God's mercy, and our faith in God's mercy, that grant us salvation. Works are a result of this faith and if one truly loves God, one will live as God has deemed one ought.Clearly, all christians should be doing good works. If they are not, it means they do not truly love God. Can you be saved if you do not truly love God? If it's not true love, then what is it? Selfishness? I've never heard anyone say that people are saved by fear, indifference, hate, or the desire for self preservation...

However, we all stumble. So you can fall into "grievous" sin (to use the Westminster Standard term) and still be saved. God will not allow any person who has declared Him his Lord to fall, though for reasons beyond our comprehension, He will allow us to fall back into sin for a time. After He pulls us back out though, we had better be doing even more "good" works than before.
that is the function of repentance. we arent expected to be perfect, we are expected to regret our sins.

he lets us do anything. like the father of the prodigal son, he will always rejoice when we come back and accept us no matter what we have done. but we have to come back. that is repentance.

okay, I just had a thought (although I have to go to church tonight and won't be back to see what people say until tomorrow)

what do we all mean when we say Salvation?

why do we need it?

what does it accomplish?

I think the answers to these questions might help us all explain ourselves a little better.

all of these rules ...infant baptism vs mature baptism, the role of the clergy, the hierachy of the church, whatever.... are after the fact contructs of men over the ages. they are interesting questions but irrelevant to ones relationship to god.

jesus spends a large amount of time in the gospels railing against the pharisees and their obsession with rules. it seems silly to me to think that what he was really upset about was that they werent obeying HIS rules. what he wanted (seemingly) was to change people's focus. to get them to have a new relationship with god. not to make picky little rules that end up sending sincere believers to hell because they got baptised on the wrong day.

when we posit a perfect form of faith, we can all agree that it includes believing jesus is the messiah and savior of humanity and that that should naturally lead one to a certain mode of behavior. fine

but people are people and they arent perfect. some people just arent the type to be unselfish no matter what they believe and have to be prompted to take the needs of others into consideration. are they to never be saved because they are too self centered? thats the vast majority of humanity.

so to have ones church remind people that they are expected to do good works "in order to be saved" might not be expecting perfect faith out of them but in my mind its much better than letting them believe that as long as they "accept jesus christ as their personal lord and savior" they can lie, cheat, steal, commit fraud and murder with impunity. that they can leave homeless men to freeze to death on the streets. that they can promote policies that leave poor children hungry every day.

I have to disagree with you on Prebyterians. You are a member of the covenant if you are able to Christ as your Lord and Savior and have done so. If you are unable to do that (you have mental problems, too young, etc.) then you are saved according to God's election. Generally, it is believed that God elects to save all those unable to make a choice, but I haven't studied that as much as I ought to have. You can however be a Presbyterian and refuse to baptize those in your family unable to choose. In my opinion you ought to. It's that person's choice, not mine.

Eh, go ask someone at your church if babies are members of the covenant/church. You're not likely to believe me just because I say they are, but that's what the PCUSA BOCO says. Presbyterians historically believe that the covenant is made between believers and their families as per Acts 16:15 etc. rather than in an american individualistic sense. It certainly was in the Old Testament covenants... why should we believe it changed so drastically when it never says so?

And Baptist churches will do that too... I have a severely brain damaged cousin who is 21 now, and was baptised a few years ago at a baptist church. I mean, the poor girl can barely eat by herself, and can't even really talk at all. I mean, she says "hi" and "turkey" but she can't even understand "go get your shoes" much less "Jesus died for your sins". Still, even her mom's baptist church baptised her, believing that God can communicate with people we can't, and can save her, even if we can't tell.

so to have ones church remind people that they are expected to do good works "in order to be saved" might not be expecting perfect faith out of them but in my mind its much better than letting them believe that as long as they "accept jesus christ as their personal lord and savior" they can lie, cheat, steal, commit fraud and murder with impunity. that they can leave homeless men to freeze to death on the streets. that they can promote policies that leave poor children hungry every day.

Which brings us back to the "If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also, faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." (James 2:15-16) bit. It used to be called "faith, hope and charity", not "faith, hope and love". For the purposes of argument, charity, in this case IS love. *nods* And it's fundamentalist types that get the "church" in trouble when they say nothing is needful except "believe and thou shalt be saved". Yeah, that's an excellent idea... but it's NEVER the end of the story. (Except, Smunkee, perhaps that thief on the cross, but he never had time to do anything else.)

So yes, fundamentalism is a problem. And the flip side of the same problem is getting bogged down in details (as per the pharasees). And as usual, I think the correct answer is somewhere between the two.

And as usual, I think the correct answer is somewhere between the two.

:-D Hehe, isnt the solution always between the two opposing sides.

Sorry I left so suddenly. I had a little emergency that needed my attention.

okay, I just had a thought (although I have to go to church tonight and won't be back to see what people say until tomorrow)

what do we all mean when we say Salvation?

why do we need it?

what does it accomplish?

I think the answers to these questions might help us all explain ourselves a little better.

Salvation is being saved. Saved from what? From the penalty of our sinful nature and the penalty of our individual sins. We need salvation so that we may be with God, to complete (for lack of a better word) our true purpose: to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. What does it accomplish? I'm not sure what you mean by this question. I guess it means that we are able to live as we were intended to live. How were we intended to live? We were intended to be one with God. I don't mean part of God or another God or anything like that. I mean that we live only to worship and serve Him. There can be no greater joy.

You said: by grace, through faith, unto works. You did separate what roles these play in salvation. I can't say that works are an inseparable part of salvation, but they are inseparably tied into it.

Yep, well I didn't say that works were required for salvation either. I actually didn't really say anything. I just summarized what I quoted, and even my summary was not original to me.

I think a key to the "not by works" thing can be found in the "and that of God, so that no one can boast" bit. Otherwise you can say "I did x y and z, and that saved me" and take credit.

all of these rules ...infant baptism vs mature baptism, the role of the clergy, the hierachy of the church, whatever.... are after the fact contructs of men over the ages. they are interesting questions but irrelevant to ones relationship to god.

jesus spends a large amount of time in the gospels railing against the pharisees and their obsession with rules. it seems silly to me to think that what he was really upset about was that they werent obeying HIS rules. what he wanted (seemingly) was to change people's focus. to get them to have a new relationship with god. not to make picky little rules that end up sending sincere believers to hell because they got baptised on the wrong day.

when we posit a perfect form of faith, we can all agree that it includes believing jesus is the messiah and savior of humanity and that that should naturally lead one to a certain mode of behavior. fine

but people are people and they arent perfect. some people just arent the type to be unselfish no matter what they believe and have to be prompted to take the needs of others into consideration. are they to never be saved because they are too self centered? thats the vast majority of humanity.

so to have ones church remind people that they are expected to do good works "in order to be saved" might not be expecting perfect faith out of them but in my mind its much better than letting them believe that as long as they "accept jesus christ as their personal lord and savior" they can lie, cheat, steal, commit fraud and murder with impunity. that they can leave homeless men to freeze to death on the streets. that they can promote policies that leave poor children hungry every day.

What exactly though is baptism? That's where the some of the fights begin. How do we do it correctly? When do we do it correctly? What does it really mean? Because we love God and wish to serve Him, we want to follow His commands the most fully or as close as we can come to understanding the fullest way. However, no one is perfect. So there are disputes about what the fullest way is. We are all Christians, but we do disagree on some things. That's why there are traditions and within traditions, denominations.

Yep, well I didn't say that works were required for salvation either. I actually didn't really say anything. I just summarized what I quoted, and even my summary was not original to me.

I think a key to the "not by works" thing can be found in the "and that of God, so that no one can boast" bit. Otherwise you can say "I did x y and z, and that saved me" and take credit.

True, true.

Question for Qwysteria.

You're an orthodox Presbyterian, but to which church/denomination do you belong?

Works, obviously. Faith is usually just empty words.

:upyours: faith

Works, obviously. Faith is usually just empty words.

*not very nice gesture* faith

You seem very angry!

An age old question. It divided the Catholic Church and spawned many many new forms of Christianity (Don't bother mentioning Indulgences, everyone agrees that it was wrong). I want to know the general view on this debate. What do you belive is essential to Salvation. Faith?, Works?, or something else? Express your wisdom and lets see.

I believe that we are justified by faith alone and not works (Ro. 3:28), that works is an outshowing of the inward faith (Ja. 2:17-18); and that such is the work of God within us (Ph. 2:13).

I believe that we are justified by faith alone and not works (Ro. 3:28), that works is an outshowing of the inward faith (Ja. 2:17-18); and that such is the work of God within us (Ph. 2:13).

Amen!

Well I'm not going to get in any argument over the matter because I Do not beleive Salvation (Of any kind). But still I have to say this. God probaply doesn't care much about either. This is not to diss any religion or anyones faith. Just saying if he all good salvation comes to everyone.

Well I'm not going to get in any argument over the matter because I Do not beleive Salvation (Of any kind). But still I have to say this. God probaply doesn't care much about either. This is not to diss any religion or anyones faith. Just saying if he all good salvation comes to everyone.

Could you explain your last sentence, please?

Could you explain your last sentence, please?
Sorry! I'm not good with keyboard...
I mean: If God is almighty and full of absolute goodness he will give salvation to everyone.
If this did not clear my statement I can't help you... I can't explain it better.:(

Sorry! I'm not good with keyboard...
I mean: If God is almighty and full of absolute goodness he will give salvation to everyone.
If this did not clear my statement I can't help you... I can't explain it better.:(

Or... If God is good, mustn't He be just? And if our sins earn death, mustn't He give that to us? Unless, someone without sin dies instead to take the penalty of sin. Jesus did that and God forgave those who, when this opportunity for forgiveness was offered, declared God as their Lord. But if you don't want God, then why ought He to save you?

Sorry, I don't mean to preach. I'm just explaining my belief further.

Or... If God is good, mustn't He be just? And if our sins earn death, mustn't He give that to us? Unless, someone without sin dies instead to take the penalty of sin. Jesus did that and God forgave those who, when this opportunity for forgiveness was offered, declared God as their Lord. But if you don't want God, then why ought He to save you?

Sorry, I don't mean to preach. I'm just explaining my belief further.

You are right, but still... I beleive Beeing good and beeing just is two totally seperate things. I mean you can lie and still do the good thing. Hope you get my point.

So In my beleive good God would give salvation to everyone.

Here I am in a conversation... and I promised not to do that :p

Just thought I'd post a link (http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm) to the Catholic church's take on the matter.

Wow! One mention of the Catholic take and the thread dies. I wonder if it will res. in three days;)