NationStates Jolt Archive

So - how many people believe in the Biblical God... and also believe in the 'Rapture'?

If you DO believe in the Rapture.... how do you justify it?

why do we need to "Justify" anything?

why do we need to "Justify" anything?

Because, from certain points of view... it looks like you REALLY have to distort the scripture to even allow the concept of Rapture.

But, if you can't defend it, then feel free not to.

So - how many people believe in the Biblical God... and also believe in the 'Rapture'?

If you DO believe in the Rapture.... how do you justify it?
What is it?

Seriously now: just how many Christians are there to believe in this shit? I mean, it's not even all Charismatic Protestants who do... Even to a believer, the very notion has to seem like modern spin.

if you don't want to believe, no amount of evidence, proof, or argument will convince you otherwise.

again, there is no need to "Justify" religion to anyone. just like there is no need to "Justify" Athiesm or Agnostism.

If it means all Christians beamed away, then I guess it's a nice thing to hope for.

I'm an atheist and I've been raptured twice. Sucks to be you, Christians!!

If it means all Christians beamed away, then I guess it's a nice thing to hope for.
...unless you're Scotty.

Funny story for this one, actually. First time I picked up the Bible, I read Daniel, which is all about prophesy and stuff, and supposedly one of the hardest parts of the Bible to understand. Second time, I flipped to Revelations, the other part that's big into prophesy.
Coincidence? I tend not to believe in them.
Now, I'm not one of these crazy people who goes around shouting that the end of the world is coming, and everyone needs to believe in God and repent. I just figure it's going to happen one day, perhaps not LITERALLY following the words of the Bible, but the spirit of it will occur. Whether or not people mysteriously disappear before the end, or if they're just brought to heaven afterwards is unknown to me, and really doesn't matter all that much.

What is it?
the Rapture?

Some believe that it is a time when God will call his children home, those that are left will be the unbelievers and the false prophets. it will also be the time of the Anti-christ and the start of the End of Days.

I honestly Don't know about the rapture, and I am a christian. I mean i know the concept, but i don't know about any biblical backing though. It would be nice to see someone that does have some "proof" though.

What is it?

The Rapture is a relatively new invention (about the 1830's, I believe), that inserts a 2000 year 'gap' into Daniel's prophetic works, and claims that all good Christians will be mystically 'disappeared' before 'all the bad stuff happens' in their version of Ragnarok.

If you've read any of the "Left Behind" books, they just LOVE that kind of thing.

the movie "Left Behind" clearly shows that the rapture will happen...

I believe it's away for the ailing churches( primarily those in the US) to scare Christ into people for however short a time.

If it means all Christians beamed away, then I guess it's a nice thing to hope for.


Well its not like all of the "christians" would be gone if this did occur. I am positive like 85% of those that claim to be Christians will be left here..So it looks like you are outta luck, you will have to still put up with Pat Roberson, which i am sure will claim that the rapture was just a liberal conspiracy, and that if it were to happen He'd be the first to go.

the movie "Left Behind" clearly shows that the rapture will happen...
That or "Home Alone". Part 3.

What is it?

it comes from this.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17: "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

the idea that the belivers will be taken to heaven upon christs return...

I honestly Don't know about the rapture, and I am a christian. I mean i know the concept, but i don't know about any biblical backing though. It would be nice to see someone that does have some "proof" though.

I think this section, least of all, can be 'proven.' It reads like a nightmare from someone looped up on hard drugs. :p
I think that's why I like it... not that I'm into drugs... just that it's a really interesting read, and so out there I wonder how anyone could have come up with it without divine inspiration (unless, as I said earlier, they were just crazy at the time). ;)

if you don't want to believe, no amount of evidence, proof, or argument will convince you otherwise.

again, there is no need to "Justify" religion to anyone. just like there is no need to "Justify" Athiesm or Agnostism.


They're not trying to believe or understand anything.

They're trying to make Christians look silly.

I never see any sarcastic posts questioning the Islamic doctrine.

The Rapture is a relatively new invention (about the 1830's, I believe), that inserts a 2000 year 'gap' into Daniel's prophetic works, and claims that all good Christians will be mystically 'disappeared' before 'all the bad stuff happens' in their version of Ragnarok.

If you've read any of the "Left Behind" books, they just LOVE that kind of thing.


But you must realize those books don't represent the Biblical prophecies. They are just works of fiction. I mean I was under the assumption that Christians will have to live here during the tribulation(the 7 yrs of war,death and so on) so that they might be able to witness as these things go on.

A popular local chruch here does a little thing called a "Judgemant Journey" every year around Halloween, you pay money to walk through a couple of acres of what it will be like post Christ's return, what with the Christian concentration camps and all, and then not 30 seconds after having a " Satanist" hold a rifle to your face for not accepting the mark of the beast you're ushered into a white tent with a Priest and asked to repent and accept God.

'Nuff said

They're not trying to believe or understand anything.

They're trying to make Christians look silly.

I never see any sarcastic posts questioning the Islamic doctrine.

Hang around here a little longer. You'll see people bashing Islam.

But you must realize those books don't represent the Biblical prophecies. They are just works of fiction. I mean I was under the assumption that Christians will have to live here during the tribulation(the 7 yrs of war,death and so on) so that they might be able to witness as these things go on.

Thats what I got out of it too.

it comes from this.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17: "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

the idea that the belivers will be taken to heaven upon christs return...


but wouldn't that second comming of Christ be right before the Battle of Har Megiddo? AFTER everything else happened, like the opening of the seals and such?

But you must realize those books don't represent the Biblical prophecies. They are just works of fiction. I mean I was under the assumption that Christians will have to live here during the tribulation(the 7 yrs of war,death and so on) so that they might be able to witness as these things go on.

common theological belief is that christians will not have to go through the tribulation. thats why they are called to heaven before hand...

it comes from this.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17: "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

the idea that the belivers will be taken to heaven upon christs return...

Yes, but you leave out the twist that the Rapture puts on the idea.

Essentially, the traditional view in Christendom is that there will be an endtime, in which the dead will rise and God will judge who is worthy of entering the Kingdom of Heaven. The Rapture, however, posits that there will be two judgments, the first at the beginning of the Time of Tribulation, when all the true Christians will ascend into Heaven and avoid the Apocalypse, while the various non-believers will side for or against the Anti-Christ in a war culminating in a battle at Armageddon. The traditional view leaves out that key point about the first judgment.

To be honest, I find the whole concept flagrantly unChristian. The idea that, supposing I was upright and virtuous, that I would be spirited away precisely when we need men of upright character and virtue to bear the cross for mankind just repulses me. As a Christian, you shouldn't hope to avoid suffering if by that suffering you can make the world better; you should welcome it.

Hang around here a little longer. You'll see people bashing Islam.


Oh I'm not denying Islam doesn't get its' fair share of bashing here.

Just that when people bash Christians on here they tend to go about it by posting a faux question.

A popular local chruch here does a little thing called a "Judgemant Journey" every year around Halloween, you pay money to walk through a couple of acres of what it will be like post Christ's return, what with the Christian concentration camps and all, and then not 30 seconds after having a " Satanist" hold a rifle to your face for not accepting the mark of the beast you're ushered into a white tent with a Priest and asked to repent and accept God.

'Nuff said

Yeah a church back home did that. Called it Judgement House. Actually they showed views of heaven and hell..my bad...not of the raptured world...but still the idea of showing them something good and then the alternative, is really scaring them into christianity...something i hate with a passion(scaring that is, not christianity)

A popular local chruch here does a little thing called a "Judgemant Journey" every year around Halloween, you pay money to walk through a couple of acres of what it will be like post Christ's return, what with the Christian concentration camps and all, and then not 30 seconds after having a " Satanist" hold a rifle to your face for not accepting the mark of the beast you're ushered into a white tent with a Priest and asked to repent and accept God.

'Nuff said
Woah, that sounds pretty good

They're not trying to believe or understand anything.

They're trying to make Christians look silly.

I never see any sarcastic posts questioning the Islamic doctrine.

An interesting post...

I'm not trying to 'believe' anything, no... but I am making an effort to understand something.

I am an Atheist, who has ended up in the Bible Belt.

Just about everyone I meet, where I live, totally believes the Rapture concept. All the Christian Radio Stations near me preach Rapture. All the Christian TV preaches Rapture. I'm less than 100 miles from Bob Jones University, which apparently sends 'Rapture preaching' preachers all over America, and beyond.

So - I'm surrounded by 'Rapture'.... and yet, when I have read the scripture, I've not really seen any 'justification' for it.

So - I ask, is this a local phenomenon? How MANY Christians accept the Rapture as valid?

And... why?

(The reason why you'll likely see more Christian-related threads than Islam-related threads... is because very few of the NS posters have any real familiarity with the Koran. I could ask questions about perceived problems with Baha'i scripture... but I'd only likely get responses from one poster).

common theological belief is that christians will not have to go through the tribulation. thats why they are called to heaven before hand...


So it makes them seem as if they are better somehow, as to not recieve this punishment onto the world. If i remember correctly,
A) No one is better than the next person, Jesus proved that by feet washing. He showed that even though he was the King he was still a servant.
B) I beleive Jesus said Christians would be persecuted by the world, so why would he lie and just fly them off to heaven at this time?

It seems to me this is just a ploy by some uber conservative christian to try and make Christians look better and also to scare people in to converting

Woah, that sounds pretty good

Best Haunted House I've ever been to, the whole Alter Call at the end it a buzzkill though.

Rapture= Everybody who belives in God goes "poof" to him and then the people left on Earth go through all kind of shit with tons of wars, famines, and whatnot. Then God comes back and accepts the people who had turned to him, the others who didin't, die in a lake of lava/fire/God fire/.

Get it? The reason that it even exists is because.... Well I don't know just like the books that are based off of it (or the rapture based of them). The series is the end of time or something like that. I really don't belive, I belive in that God comes from the general direction of that one guys belt (star constellation) and then he judges us all. The spin is while he is coming and before all kinds of stuff happens.

Difference is that the Christians on Earth have to prove their faith during the hard times, no transporting to a literally "heavanly" vacation.

Help anyone?

But you must realize those books don't represent the Biblical prophecies. They are just works of fiction. I mean I was under the assumption that Christians will have to live here during the tribulation(the 7 yrs of war,death and so on) so that they might be able to witness as these things go on.

Oh, I know.

I was once a Christian... and a non-Rapture-accepting Christian. I'd not even really encountered the concept before I moved to Georgia.

I certainly did not see any 'justification' for the Rapture.

So - I ask, is this a local phenomenon? How MANY Christians accept the Rapture as valid?

back when i was a christian i went to southeast christian church, the fifth largest church in america. they preached the rapture as a fact. so i think it is a common belief...

common theological belief is that christians will not have to go through the tribulation. thats why they are called to heaven before hand...

ONE 'common theological belief'... which I'm suspecting might only really held by one class of denominations... and MAYBE, only in a limited geography.

Rapture= Everybody who belives in God goes "poof" to him and then the people left on Earth go through all kind of shit with tons of wars, famines, and whatnot. Then God comes back and accepts the people who had turned to him, the others who didin't, die in a lake of lava/fire/God fire/.

Get it? The reason that it even exists is because.... Well I don't know just like the books that are based off of it (or the rapture based of them). The series is the end of time or something like that. I really don't belive, I belive in that God comes from the general direction of that one guys belt (star constellation) and then he judges us all. The spin is while he is coming and before all kinds of stuff happens.

Difference is that the Christians on Earth have to prove their faith during the hard times, no transporting to a literally "heavanly" vacation.

Help anyone?


So you can be saved during all this but you can't ascend...if you're killed for accepting Christ ,which chances are you will be, will your soul just be stuck in Limbo for seven years?

back when i was a christian i went to southeast christian church, the fifth largest church in america. they preached the rapture as a fact. so i think it is a common belief...

Southeast? Is that geographical?

back when i was a christian i went to southeast christian church, the fifth largest church in america. they preached the rapture as a fact. so i think it is a common belief...

I live in the south and Southern denominatoins mainly Southern Baptists damn near worship the idea of Rapture.

An interesting post...

I'm not trying to 'believe' anything, no... but I am making an effort to understand something.

I am an Atheist, who has ended up in the Bible Belt.

Just about everyone I meet, where I live, totally believes the Rapture concept. All the Christian Radio Stations near me preach Rapture. All the Christian TV preaches Rapture. I'm less than 100 miles from Bob Jones University, which apparently sends 'Rapture preaching' preachers all over America, and beyond.

So - I'm surrounded by 'Rapture'.... and yet, when I have read the scripture, I've not really seen any 'justification' for it.

So - I ask, is this a local phenomenon? How MANY Christians accept the Rapture as valid?

And... why?

(The reason why you'll likely see more Christian-related threads than Islam-related threads... is because very few of the NS posters have any real familiarity with the Koran. I could ask questions about perceived problems with Baha'i scripture... but I'd only likely get responses from one poster).

You don't see any Biblical justification for it because it isn't there--it's extra-Biblical interpretation that only became dominant in the Reconstruction-era South.

Since then, I think it has spread pretty far among fundamentalist and highly conservative churches, although it depends to some extent on the Church. I'd never really heard more than rumblings about it in Idaho, but that was probably because I attended a mainline Lutheran church, and we're much more influenced by the social gospel than we are goofy promises of avoiding punishment.

Southeast? Is that geographical?

its in kentucky. the name of the church is "Southeast."

Oh, I know.

I was once a Christian... and a non-Rapture-accepting Christian. I'd not even really encountered the concept before I moved to Georgia.

I certainly did not see any 'justification' for the Rapture.


What happened? Just got tired of all the BS that the modern chruch spews out its anus?

I live in the south and Southern denominatoins mainly Southern Baptists damn near worship the idea of Rapture.

yeah, southern baptists are like the radicals of the christian world...

A popular local chruch here does a little thing called a "Judgemant Journey" every year around Halloween, you pay money to walk through a couple of acres of what it will be like post Christ's return, what with the Christian concentration camps and all, and then not 30 seconds after having a " Satanist" hold a rifle to your face for not accepting the mark of the beast you're ushered into a white tent with a Priest and asked to repent and accept God.

'Nuff said

Where is this pagent of whismy located?

I'm dying to know, because I really, really, really, want to go to it. It sounds awesome.

yeah, southern baptists are like the radicals of the christian world...



Yeah...thats why I am a free will baptist...well technically I am non-denom...but i goto a free will baptist church...we're not radical at all!

I live in the south and Southern denominatoins mainly Southern Baptists damn near worship the idea of Rapture.

Exactly... that's what I've noticed.

Indeed - many seem to consider it the MOST important part of the scripture... which I find confusing, and a little scary.

You don't see any Biblical justification for it because it isn't there--it's extra-Biblical interpretation that only became dominant in the Reconstruction-era South.

Since then, I think it has spread pretty far among fundamentalist and highly conservative churches, although it depends to some extent on the Church. I'd never really heard more than rumblings about it in Idaho, but that was probably because I attended a mainline Lutheran church, and we're much more influenced by the social gospel than we are goofy promises of avoiding punishment.

Thanks - this adds data to my secondary avenue, about geography and denomination. :)

its in kentucky. the name of the church is "Southeast."

Kentucky is east... but not ALL that south... is it still Bible Belt? What was the denomination? (If you don't mind).

The word "rapture" comes from Latin and appears to be an attempt to explain the Greek word "parousia." Parousia has the double sense of "arrival" and "translation to the presence of that which has arrived." Thus, parousia can be used to mean any kind of supernatural return of Christ and is thus applicable to all Christian Futurist Eschatological schemes (meaning, end-times schemes that are expected to happen in the future).

It would seem that the Dispensational Premillenial view (generally popular among Baptists and Pentecostals) so strongly represented by Tim Lahaye, finds one of its strongest statements in the following passage:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thess 4:16, 17).

This passage and others like it have traditionally been interpreted to mean the definitive second coming of Christ, which is right before the final judgement, not in a secret pre-tribulation manner. The Dispensational Premillenial view was formed and popularized in the mid to late 1800s. This theory was made particularly popular by the Scofield Study Bible first published in 1909.

Personally I dislike study Bibles in general because it is quite easy to read the study notes and unwittingly see them as equally authoritative with the text. It is the perfect propaganda tool.

In conclusion, considering that the "rapture" theory as currently understood is quite new, it may be wise from a theological standpoint to find a theory that allows for an immenent return of Christ, but does not claim to have new and previously unheard of insight into the text. Such claims are often suspect.

What happened? Just got tired of all the BS that the modern chruch spews out its anus?

No, actually... I just gradually stopped believing. I found conflicts in the scripture that required way too many 'assumptions' to fix, and I found way too many OTHER religions out there ALSO claiming to be 'true'.

And, no evidence for any of it.

I loathe the culture of hate that certain denominations seem to foster... but that's not why I stopped believing.

it comes from this.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17: "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

the idea that the belivers will be taken to heaven upon christs return...
Now I am confused. That sounds more like it is promoting the idea that non-believers will be saved, that those who "are asleep" to Jesus, who are "dead in Christ", shall not be prevented from achieving the same Heaven as those who are awake.

No, actually... I just gradually stopped believing. I found conflicts in the scripture that required way too many 'assumptions' to fix, and I found way too many OTHER religions out there ALSO claiming to be 'true'.

And, no evidence for any of it.

I loathe the culture of hate that certain denominations seem to foster... but that's not why I stopped believing.

Im sorry you don't feel positive about it anymore. I sometimes begin to think that way as well. But then I realize i shouldn't worry about what some humans wrote down, or what not. I have faith that there is a God and I know he sent his son to die..all i have to believe. The rest is just added baggage that you can choose to follow if you want.

Kentucky is east... but not ALL that south... is it still Bible Belt? What was the denomination? (If you don't mind).

they just called themselves christians. heres thier website if you want to look around: http://www.southeastchristian.org/

No, actually... I just gradually stopped believing. I found conflicts in the scripture that required way too many 'assumptions' to fix, and I found way too many OTHER religions out there ALSO claiming to be 'true'.

And, no evidence for any of it.

this covers me as well...

it comes from this.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17: "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

the idea that the belivers will be taken to heaven upon christs return...

This is only partly true. While Christians today use this verse to justify a rapture doctrine, this is not the original source of the rapture doctrine. Early Christians, up through Catholicism, until the Protestant Reformation, did not believe in the type of rapture that many Christians do today. Nor did they interpret this verse to refer to a rapture as such. This first occured in the 19th century in a dispensational church.

John Darby popularized the rapture idea, in part based on the sensationalized dream of a little girl named Margaret McDonald who saw people being taken up to heaven, etc. Soon authors were ripping off the rapture idea, much earlier than the Left Behind series (still late 19th century) and it became a hit. Now we all know how popular of a doctrine its become.

I think people want to believe in the rapture because it jibes well with American pop-culture Christianity. Its an easy way out. You don't have to stick around for any of the pain or suffering, you don't even have to die - you just get pulled up to heaven. And of course, they all believe its going to happen any second, within their lifetime (they wish).

they just called themselves christians. heres thier website if you want to look around: http://www.southeastchristian.org/


Whats that supposed to mean?

Im sorry you don't feel positive about it anymore. I sometimes begin to think that way as well. But then I realize i shouldn't worry about what some humans wrote down, or what not. I have faith that there is a God and I know he sent his son to die..all i have to believe. The rest is just added baggage that you can choose to follow if you want.

But - the only thing that informs me there is a god, or that informed me about his 'son'... WAS "what some humans wrote down".

If the books are not true (and, I'm certainly not sure they are)... then how do I 'believe' in the father and the son?

I can't even use the rationale "I'll know it when I feel it"... because millions of people worship OTHER gods...

Thanks for the sympathetic gesture... but, I'm not sorry. Sometimes it would be 'easier' if I believed 'something'... but I can't MAKE myself believe for the convenience, and wouldn't want to 'force' it, if I could.

Now I am confused. That sounds more like it is promoting the idea that non-believers will be saved, that those who "are asleep" to Jesus, who are "dead in Christ", shall not be prevented from achieving the same Heaven as those who are awake.

those who "are asleep" are the christians who have already died. they will be risen with those christians who are alive. its not referring to the non-christians...

Whats that supposed to mean?

i dont think they labeled themselves as a denomination. just "christian..."

This is fascinating, from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture):

Quote:
Both Pre-tribulation Rapture advocates, and post-Tribulation advocates would agree with the following:

- The Tribulation is the period of time when those on Earth who say that they want to live life on the Earth without God, get to actually try to do this - on their own without God. The fact that they were not "raptured" into Heaven to be with God during this time period, means that they chose to stay behind, since they could have voluntarily chosen to believe God and the Bible prior to the Rapture.

- Although no one can be sure when the Seven Year perior of Tribulation occurs, there are several passages in the Bible (primarily in Daniel, Ezechiel and Revelation) that state specific events numbered down to the actual day - within the seven year period. Therefore after the seven year period of Tribulation has begun, people will be able to understand and predict the various catastrophes coming to the planet by studying an accurate version of the Bible.

- The Tribulation - the seven year period of Great Difficulty - still can be divided into two time periods:
- The first three and half years when God is simply absent from the Earth, and
- the second three and half years when Satan actually rules the planet through his Emissaries. (The Tribulation is the overall seven year period. The "Great" tribulation usually refers to the last 3 and half years of the tribulation.)

- The end of the Seven Year period is marked by the return of those people who were Raptured along with all of those who have gone to Heaven until that point in time. All of those people return under the Guidance of Christ who comes to judge the Earth and its inhabitants for deciding to align themselves with the forces of Satan. (Both the Bible and the book of Revelation present Satan as a fallen angel, a spiritual being of great and wicked power who deceives the world into following him).
_____________

Obviously, during this time of Tribulation, and presumably the Rapture, everyone, even non-Christians, will be aware of (the Christian) God? And, presumably, Satan?

they just called themselves christians. heres thier website if you want to look around: http://www.southeastchristian.org/

Thanks... I did have a look around. They strike me as peculiarly... what's the word I'm looking for... mechanical?

I mean - they write books on communication and leadership, and give classes in evangelism... it just seems a lot more mercenary (?) than being 'moved by the spirit'.... they seem to be 'marketing' their church.

Here's something I've always wondered about. What about airplanes that are piloted by Christians? When they get Raptured, what about the passengers when the plane crashes? What about the highways? Every car driven by a Christian will be without a driver at some unpredictable moment, killing everyone in its path! :eek: The only solution is to make it illegal for Christians to drive cars, or pilot planes.

Obviously, during this time of Tribulation, and presumably the Rapture, everyone, even non-Christians, will be aware of (the Christian) God? And, presumably, Satan?

yes, and within the seven years unbelievers get a chance to repent...

But - the only thing that informs me there is a god, or that informed me about his 'son'... WAS "what some humans wrote down".

If the books are not true (and, I'm certainly not sure they are)... then how do I 'believe' in the father and the son?

I can't even use the rationale "I'll know it when I feel it"... because millions of people worship OTHER gods...

Thanks for the sympathetic gesture... but, I'm not sorry. Sometimes it would be 'easier' if I believed 'something'... but I can't MAKE myself believe for the convenience, and wouldn't want to 'force' it, if I could.

Well this is why i Believe it, it will make me sound crazy...but nothing stopping people from thinking that ,eh? ha...well anyways..5 yrs ago on July 14th, 2001, I was in my bed and I couldn't sleep. Well to make a long story short( i have class in a few mins, but i can tell the full story later if one wishes)I was in the presence of Christ, someone I had never believed in before, and that night I started following Christ.

Here's something I've always wondered about. What about airplanes that are piloted by Christians? When they get Raptured, what about the passengers when the plane crashes? What about the highways? Every car driven by a Christian will be without a driver at some unpredictable moment, killing everyone in its path! :eek: The only solution is to make it illegal for Christians to drive cars, or pilot planes.

I was actually just looking at something about that... it seems some people have actually attempted to introduce legislation to disallow both pilots and co-pilots from being Christians, in case the 'Rapture' comes, and takes BOTH....

yes, and within the seven years unbelievers get a chance to repent...
Okay, but then I have heard the idea expressed (don't know from where it comes) that the sight of God would make a person automatically believe in God, that they would have no choice. Doesn't that mean that no one would be left to endure Tribulation?

here is an intresting site off of google:
http://askelm.com/doctrine/d760201.htm

yes, and within the seven years unbelievers get a chance to repent...

Not according to the Southern Baptists where I am... they teach that your heart will be hardened....

Cheerful bunch.

Well this is why i Believe it, it will make me sound crazy...but nothing stopping people from thinking that ,eh? ha...well anyways..5 yrs ago on July 14th, 2001, I was in my bed and I couldn't sleep. Well to make a long story short( i have class in a few mins, but i can tell the full story later if one wishes)I was in the presence of Christ, someone I had never believed in before, and that night I started following Christ.

Believe it or not, I was actually 'saved' as a Christian... I too have 'felt the presence', so I understand, and I don't think it makes you crazy.

However, at later dates, other experiences have cast different lights on my experiences. Religious experience only survives in our memory as religious experience if we accept it as such. By which I mean - looking back on it now, the 'feeling' that I had when I opened myself to Christ, and felt all my worries lost, etc... could actually just be putting Descartes before his horse (or something)... and the 'feeling of succour' could ACTUALLY have just been the feeling of no longer feeling responsible or guilty.

Thanks... I did have a look around. They strike me as peculiarly... what's the word I'm looking for... mechanical?

I mean - they write books on communication and leadership, and give classes in evangelism... it just seems a lot more mercenary (?) than being 'moved by the spirit'.... they seem to be 'marketing' their church.


i wouldnt really call them mercenary, but i see how one would think so. the church is so big and they get so much money that it could be seen more as a business than a church bbut thats not what it is. they are definalty there for god. no doubt about that...

Not according to the Southern Baptists where I am... they teach that your heart will be hardened....

Cheerful bunch.


Well i could understand maybe hardened hearts might appear. I say that because God wants love volunteerly, right? So with all this war, famine and other hell on eath crap going on, people would want to convert to avoid punishment and death, not becuase they love God.

here is an intresting site off of google:
http://askelm.com/doctrine/d760201.htm

Thanks... good site - they make an effort to present the evidence and let you decide for yourself. Something of a rarity, unfortunately.

Believe it or not, I was actually 'saved' as a Christian... I too have 'felt the presence', so I understand, and I don't think it makes you crazy.

However, at later dates, other experiences have cast different lights on my experiences. Religious experience only survives in our memory as religious experience if we accept it as such. By which I mean - looking back on it now, the 'feeling' that I had when I opened myself to Christ, and felt all my worries lost, etc... could actually just be putting Descartes before his horse (or something)... and the 'feeling of succour' could ACTUALLY have just been the feeling of no longer feeling responsible or guilty.


Well, it seems you have made your mind up, and I respect you decision based on your logic. You and me are much in common though, we both seek for truth in our lives, and we have found it. So may you have joyous journey down your path.:)

i wouldnt really call them mercenary, but i see how one would think so. the church is so big and they get so much money that it could be seen more as a business than a church bbut thats not what it is. they are definalty there for god. no doubt about that...

Oh, I'm not doubting their spiritual motivations... but they certainly look like they should be worried about getting their camels through the eyes of needles... I guess some of these 'evangelists' have just made me suspicious of profitable business ventures in the name of the church.

I was once a Christian...

Has that story ever been told here?

Well i could understand maybe hardened hearts might appear. I say that because God wants love volunteerly, right? So with all this war, famine and other hell on eath crap going on, people would want to convert to avoid punishment and death, not becuase they love God.

Agreed - that is the (first) flaw I found in Pascal's Wager... the idea that you can 'believe' as a convenience.

However, to harden the hearts of the sinners AFTER his truth has been revealed seems twisted. (And, I realise, it is not unheard of in scripture... it's not TOO far removed from the punishment of the Pharaoh).

Has that story ever been told here?
Many a time. :)

Well, it seems you have made your mind up, and I respect you decision based on your logic. You and me are much in common though, we both seek for truth in our lives, and we have found it. So may you have joyous journey down your path.:)

Thanks... that is much the same sentiment I share (indeed, I made a statement VERY similar to this - in concept - just a few days ago, in another thread).

I think it is important for us all to seek our truths, and I am always happy for someone who has found theirs.

Many a time. :)

I go on a bit, do I?

;)

Okay, but then I have heard the idea expressed (don't know from where it comes) that the sight of God would make a person automatically believe in God, that they would have no choice. Doesn't that mean that no one would be left to endure Tribulation?

well no one will "see" god during the tribulation. christ comes to gather the christians then the tribululation occurs for everyone else. so those that are left have the chance to repent before christ returns at the end of the 7 years. the "second coming" happens after the tribulation to judge unbelievers...

Cheerful bunch.

sounds like it...

well no one will "see" god during the tribulation. christ comes to gather the christians then the tribululation occurs for everyone else. so those that are left have the chance to repent before christ returns at the end of the 7 years. the "second coming" happens after the tribulation to judge unbelievers...
So non-believers will not be aware of God? It'll be just like it is now?

So non-believers will not be aware of God? It'll be just like it is now?

thats what i get when i read it...

it looks like i am late for class..So i guess i am skipping it today! you suckers are stuck with me for a while longer:p

it looks like i am late for class..So i guess i am skipping it today! you suckers are stuck with me for a while longer:p

happens to me alot...:p but i am about to go to wallmart...

Exactly... that's what I've noticed.

Indeed - many seem to consider it the MOST important part of the scripture... which I find confusing, and a little scary.
the southern baptists seem to be hell-bent (pun intended) on destroying themselves. they already dont deserve the name BAPTIST.

as they mix themselves more and more into politics and set more stringent rules on what a southern baptist must believe and how they must behave, they set themselves up for schisms.

jimmy carter had to leave the southern baptists and move on to the maranatha baptists for severe theological disagreements.

So it makes them seem as if they are better somehow, as to not recieve this punishment onto the world. If i remember correctly,
A) No one is better than the next person, Jesus proved that by feet washing. He showed that even though he was the King he was still a servant.
B) I beleive Jesus said Christians would be persecuted by the world, so why would he lie and just fly them off to heaven at this time?

It seems to me this is just a ploy by some uber conservative christian to try and make Christians look better and also to scare people in to converting

A-Jesus washed the disciples' feet as an example, that we should serve one another (that is Christians serving Christians)

B-seems to me that Christians have been persecuted from the beginning-how much is enough?

The rapture is not about someone being better than someone else, it is the Noah concept-Jesus compared the last days to the days of Noah. Noah did not suffer through the flood, but was called by God to rise above it.

Same concept-Christians will float out of the world undergoing judgement-the judgement is for non-Christians, so why keep us here, especially since he will be sending out evangelists all over, hoping that the horrific events of those days will scare people into repenting and coming to Christ?

And by the way, the Bible advocates scaring people into converting, if they will not come any other way...

Jude:
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

Now I am confused. That sounds more like it is promoting the idea that non-believers will be saved, that those who "are asleep" to Jesus, who are "dead in Christ", shall not be prevented from achieving the same Heaven as those who are awake.

prevent is from the King James version, and in modern english means "precede"

There is always confusion with that King James english...

prevent is from the King James version, and in modern english means "precede"

There is always confusion with that King James english...
ta

Here's something I've always wondered about. What about airplanes that are piloted by Christians? When they get Raptured, what about the passengers when the plane crashes? What about the highways? Every car driven by a Christian will be without a driver at some unpredictable moment, killing everyone in its path! :eek: The only solution is to make it illegal for Christians to drive cars, or pilot planes.

And what about Christian doctors in the middle of surgery, or Christian submarine captains, or Christian bus drivers...

And by the way, the Bible advocates scaring people into converting, if they will not come any other way...

Jude:
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

how is that advocating it? It is saying some preach fear. it doens't say Jesus wants us to go out and preach fear unto the masses. That would be ridiculous, and kinda against the core concept of Christianity. you see, LOVE, not fear, will save the soul. So i can go out and preach to everyone all i want to about hell, but will that save them? nope, only the redeeming love and blood of Christ.

the southern baptists seem to be hell-bent (pun intended) on destroying themselves. they already dont deserve the name BAPTIST.

as they mix themselves more and more into politics and set more stringent rules on what a southern baptist must believe and how they must behave, they set themselves up for schisms.

jimmy carter had to leave the southern baptists and move on to the maranatha baptists for severe theological disagreements.

I heard an interview with Jimmy Carter, a few weeks back, talking about all the reasons he had 'opted out' of the whole Southern Baptist scene.

By the end of the interview, I was really hoping he'd run again in 2008...

I really want to know who picked the third option in the poll, Not Christian but still believe in the rapture...i mean what is it that you are then?

how is that advocating it? It is saying some preach fear. it doens't say Jesus wants us to go out and preach fear unto the masses. That would be ridiculous, and kinda against the core concept of Christianity. you see, LOVE, not fear, will save the soul. So i can go out and preach to everyone all i want to about hell, but will that save them? nope, only the redeeming love and blood of Christ.

That's the problem I see with the 'fear' element.... you can't really BELIEVE, just because you want to... so fear is a tool to create LIP-SERVICE Christians, not to save souls.

Well i could understand maybe hardened hearts might appear. I say that because God wants love volunteerly, right? So with all this war, famine and other hell on eath crap going on, people would want to convert to avoid punishment and death, not becuase they love God.

Look at how many people are angry at God right now, who feel as if their lives or the world is so awful...

When the seals are being opened, and the sun is dark and the moon turns red as blood, and all the buildings come tumbling down, people will be even more angry at God.

Some may repent, but most will probably hate God even more for bringing them fresh pain and suffering.

how is that advocating it? It is saying some preach fear. it doens't say Jesus wants us to go out and preach fear unto the masses. That would be ridiculous, and kinda against the core concept of Christianity. you see, LOVE, not fear, will save the soul. So i can go out and preach to everyone all i want to about hell, but will that save them? nope, only the redeeming love and blood of Christ.

Jesus constantly preached about hell.

"There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" was one of his favorite phrases...

Reiligon is a dying tradition. Humanity will most likely bring an end to itself, not some mystical tart in the sky. No rapture, no coming of days, no anti-christ.

They're not trying to believe or understand anything.

They're trying to make Christians look silly.

I never see any sarcastic posts questioning the Islamic doctrine.
You're not looking hard enough.

Get off your faux-persecuted high horse and read a few threads.

Look at how many people are angry at God right now, who feel as if their lives or the world is so awful...

When the seals are being opened, and the sun is dark and the moon turns red as blood, and all the buildings come tumbling down, people will be even more angry at God.

Some may repent, but most will probably hate God even more for bringing them fresh pain and suffering.


Which is why i don't beleive in the rapture. I think the christians will be left here to continue to preach the love of Christ, in the times of darkness. The reason many people hate God is because they look for answers and hope that someone can help them, well there seems to be no one there to help them. I mean the modern day church is worthless. So when people ask why crap goes wrong, and they look to these supposed holy people, and they see vileness and corruption amuck the house of God, well then they start to question more. And then questioning becomes hate..or at least thats how i view alot of hate in this world for God.

Which is why i don't beleive in the rapture. I think the christians will be left here to continue to preach the love of Christ, in the times of darkness. The reason many people hate God is because they look for answers and hope that someone can help them, well there seems to be no one there to help them. I mean the modern day church is worthless. So when people ask why crap goes wrong, and they look to these supposed holy people, and they see vileness and corruption amuck the house of God, well then they start to question more. And then questioning becomes hate..or at least thats how i view alot of hate in this world for God.

It's not even hate at all. People are begining to think for themselves and not have some fictional book tell them how to run their lives.

Which is why i don't beleive in the rapture. I think the christians will be left here to continue to preach the love of Christ, in the times of darkness. The reason many people hate God is because they look for answers and hope that someone can help them, well there seems to be no one there to help them. I mean the modern day church is worthless. So when people ask why crap goes wrong, and they look to these supposed holy people, and they see vileness and corruption amuck the house of God, well then they start to question more. And then questioning becomes hate..or at least thats how i view alot of hate in this world for God.

I think a lot of it is also about 'un-christlike christians'... people are looking for something, and Christianity promises it... but, when you look closer, you find hypocrites and unrepentent sinners... and some of the loudest speakers come across as FAR FROM 'loving'.

Jesus constantly preached about hell.

"There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" was one of his favorite phrases...


Constantly? so I am sure the sermon on the mount, the last supper, the parables were all about hell? Nope last I check he constantly preached the love of God, and that love came through him. he did mention hell a few times, yes, but not to scare people. if he wanted to center his followers around fear, and spreading fear, then he would have done so, but no, instead he taught about everlasting life, and love...Love is the key to christianity. without love, there is no christianity.

Constantly? so I am sure the sermon on the mount, the last supper, the parables were all about hell? Nope last I check he constantly preached the love of God, and that love came through him. he did mention hell a few times, yes, but not to scare people. if he wanted to center his followers around fear, and spreading fear, then he would have done so, but no, instead he taught about everlasting life, and love...Love is the key to christianity. without love, there is no christianity.

Apart from a little bit of a tiff in a temple, he was supposed to have been pretty chilled, right?

I'd imagine, if he preached a ministry of fear, the New Testament stories would be less about healing the blind, casting out spirits and walking on water... and more about raining fire, plagues of locusts, and eating babies.

I think a lot of it is also about 'un-christlike christians'... people are looking for something, and Christianity promises it... but, when you look closer, you find hypocrites and unrepentent sinners... and some of the loudest speakers come across as FAR FROM 'loving'.

Which is why, when we stand before God, he will not ask you why you didn't believe in Bob the loud-mouth, or Patty the hypocrite...he will ask why you didn't believe in his Son, who was none of those bad things...

Which is why, when we stand before God, he will not ask you why you didn't believe in Bob the loud-mouth, or Patty the hypocrite...he will ask why you didn't believe in his Son, who was none of those bad things...
actually, from my understanding, HE won't even ask. HE will just read names from the BOOK and those written in there would enter Heaven. those not in there...



won't be.

Apart from a little bit of a tiff in a temple, he was supposed to have been pretty chilled, right?

I'd imagine, if he preached a ministry of fear, the New Testament stories would be less about healing the blind, casting out spirits and walking on water... and more about raining fire, plagues of locusts, and eating babies.

This is about perception vs reality. Read the Gospels, do not go by what you saw in a movie, or heard in a childrens story.

When I get the chance, I will pull out all the preaching of Jesus on hell, vs times he mentioned heaven.

hell>heaven

Apart from a little bit of a tiff in a temple, he was supposed to have been pretty chilled, right?

I'd imagine, if he preached a ministry of fear, the New Testament stories would be less about healing the blind, casting out spirits and walking on water... and more about raining fire, plagues of locusts, and eating babies.


Well did ya know, In the lost gospel of Zilam, chapter 22 verse 3, St. Zilam actually quotes Jesus as promoting the eating of babies...:p

I'm finding this whole separation from God thing a little unusual. But once again, I find that it all boils down to a difference in the notion of what God is.

If God were an individual, I would neither hate nor love him (at least, not in any greater sense than I do the next guy). I just don't identify with him. He is who he is, I am who I am. He's made some tough calls, and made some mistakes, but someone had to make them. So I don't hate him for it. But we live completely separate existences. With or without his presence, I would live my life as I always have.

Don't most people think like that? Or is it just a weird glitch of mine?

Which is why, when we stand before God, he will not ask you why you didn't believe in Bob the loud-mouth, or Patty the hypocrite...he will ask why you didn't believe in his Son, who was none of those bad things...

Or, alternatively... he'll say - "yes, you were an Atheist... but you were a nice Atheist... come on in"...

This is about perception vs reality. Read the Gospels, do not go by what you saw in a movie, or heard in a childrens story.

When I get the chance, I will pull out all the preaching of Jesus on hell, vs times he mentioned heaven.

hell>heaven

Believe it or not, I've read the Gospels... once or twice.

I'm not saying he preached heaven... or hell. I'm saying MOST of what he preached was about RIGHT here.

So... maybe hell, then...?

Well did ya know, In the lost gospel of Zilam, chapter 22 verse 3, St. Zilam actually quotes Jesus as promoting the eating of babies...:p

Wow... really? I need me a copy of that Gospel....

I'm finding this whole separation from God thing a little unusual. But once again, I find that it all boils down to a difference in the notion of what God is.

If God were an individual, I would neither hate nor love him (at least, not in any greater sense than I do the next guy). I just don't identify with him. He is who he is, I am who I am. He's made some tough calls, and made some mistakes, but someone had to make them. So I don't hate him for it. But we live completely separate existences. With or without his presence, I would live my life as I always have.

Don't most people think like that? Or is it just a weird glitch of mine?

Not just yours... I'm much the same way.

But... it could just be us two... :)

When I get the chance, I will pull out all the preaching of Jesus on hell, vs times he mentioned heaven.
But you do know what Jesus was talking about when he said "Hell", right? It's not the same meaning we give the word nowadays.

This is about perception vs reality. Read the Gospels, do not go by what you saw in a movie, or heard in a childrens story.

When I get the chance, I will pull out all the preaching of Jesus on hell, vs times he mentioned heaven.

hell>heaven


What I am saying is that he didn't really preach too much about reward of living in heaven and the punishment of living in hell. No instead he preached that the reward of loving Him and the Father, was to be in their presence for eternity, to bow before them and worship them. The punishment would be ever seperation fromt their presence. That is a true punishement. I am positive he didn't care about preaching how pretty heaven was, or how horrible hell was. when he spoke about those things, the message was reward=being with God
punishment= not being with God.

And if you read the Gospels, you give me a ratio of how much he talks about Love vs what he speaks of fear(hell)

But you do know what Jesus was talking about when he said "Hell", right? It's not the same meaning we give the word nowadays.


the seperation of man from God.

Exactly... that's what I've noticed.

Indeed - many seem to consider it the MOST important part of the scripture... which I find confusing, and a little scary.

Yeah... it seems to be what's happening - they ignore the teachings of Jesus himself and go straight to "ALL THAT AREN'T CHRISTIANS WILL DIE AND BURN!" and immediately snap into the "Hey, I'm a christian! That means I'm better than everyone else!" mindset, completely losing the irony of the situation upon themselves, in the fact that they're -NOT- christians, because they are, in fact, not OF Christ. They are of the bible, and not even ALL of it, just certain parts they chose to believe in.

This creates the idiots we've come to know and stab.

the seperation of man from God.
Well, that's one option.

The more literal approach suggests that he was actually referring to a physical location just outside Jerusalem where "Pagans" held sacrificial rituals. Or so doth say my NIV Study bible, anyway.

Well, that's one option.

The more literal approach suggests that he was actually referring to a physical location just outside Jerusalem where "Pagans" held sacrificial rituals. Or so doth say my NIV Study bible, anyway.


Oh thats an intresting approach. I always thought hell was the realm inside the black holes. "outer darkness"= outer space.. constant burning..well the matter heats up to millions of degrees Kelvin right before entering the event horizon. Um...nothing can escape from hell..well nothing can escape a black hole..and it completly seperation from God right? well as nothing can escape they are forever away in some place away from God...just my theory though..:p

If you've read any of the "Left Behind" books, they just LOVE that kind of thing.I got about 5 pages in to the first one and couldn't stand it. It was terrible. I don't really care what's in it, just the way it was written was so...so bad. Ugh. I think I hate religious fiction. :p

Well, that's one option.

The more literal approach suggests that he was actually referring to a physical location just outside Jerusalem where "Pagans" held sacrificial rituals. Or so doth say my NIV Study bible, anyway.

The Valley of Hinnom (Gay'hinnom) located southwest of Jerusalem. The name Hinnom probably means 'Lamentation', and it was the location to which dead animals and refuse were dragged, to be burned.

Consequently, with all the accumulated debris of Jerusalem, the valley was almost certainly filled with fires most of the time...

I'm not sure about 'pagan rituals'... but it definitely refers to a physical, earthly geography.

I got about 5 pages in to the first one and couldn't stand it. It was terrible. I don't really care what's in it, just the way it was written was so...so bad. Ugh. I think I hate religious fiction. :p

It might just be that series... they are pretty badly written. You'd have to really want to read about the 'end of the world' to endure much of it...

Pardon me because I only managed to read the first three pages before I posted this so if anything I say here has already been said, you can simply skip past my post and move on.

From what I gathered from the early on discussion there seems to be some confusion about what Christians actually believe regarding the end times and the rapture. The reason for this is that there are countless differing views of eschatology within Christianity. (Eschatology = the study of the end times). The reason for this is simply that the Bible is not very specific about what is going to happen. The Bible is very literal and concrete when it deals with history. However, when it deals with prophecy it is very figurative and abstract. The pattern for this can be seen in the Messianic prophecies - many of which would not have seemed to be prophecy at all until they were fulfilled in Christ. The point is you have to take a "big picture" approach to interpereting end times prophecy.

Now, I will confuse everyone: It seems that the brand of eschatology with which most of you are familiar is Pretribulational Dispensational Premilennialism. I will explain: Premilennialism deals with this passage of Scripture found in: Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

What is this Thousand Year reign? When does it happen? Where will it be? How will it be organized? The Premilennialists believe that Christ will return BEFORE the milennium happens, and that the milennium will be a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth before the final destruction of the world and the advent of eternity.

Dispensationalism deals with How God moves through history. A raw form of dispensationalism would say that God revealed Himself in different ways at different times to different people over the course of History and that the Old Testament was His way of dealing with the nation of Israel. In the end, God will fulfill all the promises He made to Israel through Abraham.

And the Pretribulational part means that the Rapture will happen before the tribulation.

There are, however, several other forms of premilennailism: historic, pre-wrath, post-trib, mid-trib, etc, all place the rapture at some point before the battle of Armageddon.

Here's a basic timeline of what The PDP's believe:
http://open-dialogue.com/mandm/images/premil.jpg


Creation
Daniel's Prophecy of the 70 Weeks - or to be more exact 70 cycles of 7, which can be interpereted as weeks or 7 year chunks, and as a matter of fact, exactly 69 7-year-periods later, Christ was born. The 70th week, however, has yet to occur (btw, a week = 49 years, the whole cycle would be 490)
The Incarnation/Crucifixion/Resurrection (aprox AD 30)
The Church Age
The Rapture - as previously defined: Christ returns, those who are dead are resurrected, we all have a big group hug in the sky and then go back into Heaven
The Great Tribulation - the last week of Daniel's prophecy - (if it holds to be accurate with the other 69 weeks, then it will be 7 years
Armageddon - a big battle where all the evil humans who remain are killed and then judged.
The Milennium - Literal 1,000 year kingdom on Earth where Jesus is King and we "reign with Him"
The Great White Throne Judgement - God judges all who have died and they give account of their life. They are judged and sent to Hell (the Bible is pretty clear that the only defendants at this trial will be non-believers.)
Eternity


However, there is a point when talking about Escatology where we leave behind the hard and fast Scripture and go on into speculation. I believe that the timeline has done just that. There is much more to be speculated on, but let me give you some reasons why it doesn't make sense that they've set up the milennium the way they have:

1. The only point they have in setting up the Milennium the way they do is so that there can be a time and place where God fulfills the promises He made to Abraham: That Abraham's descendants would have a land and a people and a King (who obviously is supposed to be Christ). However, the promises to Abraham were made well before the foundation of the nation of Israel and the Mosaic Law. Israel was not formed until two generations after Abraham, and the Moses didn't come along until 400 years later! Therefore, while Israel seems to be the most direct example of Abraham's descendents available, they are not the only. In fact the Bible makes if very clear in Romans 4 that New Covenant Believers (a term that I will define in a minute) are now the descendants of Abraham. So if God is going to fulfill His promises to Abraham's descendents, to whom is He going to fulfill them? THE CHURCH!

2. WHY would God want to fulfill the promises to Israel only for 1,000 years? WHY would He not give fulfill them in Eternity? Why give Israel this stuff that He provided only to take them away again? That doesn't make a lot of sense. Also, look at it this way. This is a bit abstract, but Israel - all throughout the Old Testament (OT) is God's working of His redemptive plan through the administration of covenants, but they are rebellious and sinful and He cannot fulfill His plan in them. He saw this coming though - the Law and the Prophets and everything were there to point out that man is incapable of saving himself. Therefore, God sent Christ to die and provide the substitutionary sacrifice for sins. Thus those who repent and place their faith in Christ are part of the New Covenant which God inagurated at the Last Supper. This Covenant formed a "New Israel": The Church. Therefore God is finished with National Israel in His plans. There will be no fulfillment of the prophecy to Israel in the way that the dispensational premilennialists see it. Israel will play a large role in the end times, but they will not be a focal point.

Thus the Milennium has to fall elsewhere. Where? I don't know, but it does. Initially my gut reaction was to say that it was a metaphor for Eternity, but this breaks down when you look at the next verses which speak of Satan being released from the abyss, deceiving the nations and preparing them for war (something that doesn't seem to show up in the pre-mil timeline, btw).

Anyway it all boils down to this: if you're still with me. All TrueChristians share this in common (though we may not actually use it in worship for one reason or another):

THE APOSTLE'S CREED
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

*what is meant by "catholic" here is the notion of a universal church which is the brotherhood/sisterhood that all believers throughout time and space have in Christ Jesus. Had it been capitalized: Catholic, then and only then would it refer to the Roman Catholic Church. This creed was written well before the advent of the RCC.

So, if you haven't skipped on to the next point here me out: The Apostle's Creed shows that believe that Christ WILL return and all men will be judged. How? When? Where? We don't know details. We can speculate from various vague Scripture passages, but we don't know for sure. I for one am not going to be the one to put God in a box and say "It has to be this way". There are some things that are strait forward and make sense, but there are way more that don't.

And also, look at Revelation. The first three chapters are Christ sending personal greetings to seven different churchs - all of whom are below the standard where He wants them to be. Then He goes on to talk about the end times. So Revelations seems to me not so much to be intended as a "this is what is going to happen" but a "this IS going to happen, wake up and get your life right."

So are we scaring people into repentance? I think you ought to be scared. The prospect of eternity in Hell is not one I would like to have. However, no rational, logical, emotional, or any other way appeal can ever bring anyone to repentence apart from the work of God in your life. I don't write this with the direct intent to convert anyone. I simply write this to give glory to the awesome Creator who will one day have glorious victory over the Enemy and will destroy this foul world (not necessarily the planet, mind you) and sin forever so we can live and reign with Him in peace, harmony and love. Take from this what you wish.

in the name of Jesus, The Christ, the Son of God
By whom and for whom through whom all things were made,
SeismicMike

-snip-


that seemed like a copy and paste job if i ever saw one...

Are christian?

Wow, thats pretty bad.

Christianity makes as much sense as Matrix reloaded on acid. :confused:

Talking to christians is like :headbang:

In the end I just want to :sniper:

Are christian?

Wow, thats pretty bad.

Christianity makes as much sense as Matrix reloaded on acid. :confused:

Talking to christians is like :headbang:

In the end I just want to :sniper:


Wow..you're cool.:rolleyes:

*what is meant by "catholic" here is the notion of a universal church which is the brotherhood/sisterhood that all believers throughout time and space have in Christ Jesus. Had it been capitalized: Catholic, then and only then would it refer to the Roman Catholic Church. This creed was written well before the advent of the RCC.

So, if you haven't skipped on to the next point here me out: The Apostle's Creed shows that believe that Christ WILL return and all men will be judged. How? When? Where? We don't know details. We can speculate from various vague Scripture passages, but we don't know for sure. I for one am not going to be the one to put God in a box and say "It has to be this way". There are some things that are strait forward and make sense, but there are way more that don't.

And also, look at Revelation. The first three chapters are Christ sending personal greetings to seven different churchs - all of whom are below the standard where He wants them to be. Then He goes on to talk about the end times. So Revelations seems to me not so much to be intended as a "this is what is going to happen" but a "this IS going to happen, wake up and get your life right."

So are we scaring people into repentance? I think you ought to be scared. The prospect of eternity in Hell is not one I would like to have. However, no rational, logical, emotional, or any other way appeal can ever bring anyone to repentence apart from the work of God in your life. I don't write this with the direct intent to convert anyone. I simply write this to give glory to the awesome Creator who will one day have glorious victory over the Enemy and will destroy this foul world (not necessarily the planet, mind you) and sin forever so we can live and reign with Him in peace, harmony and love. Take from this what you wish.

in the name of Jesus, The Christ, the Son of God
By whom and for whom through whom all things were made,
SeismicMike



Dont believe a word of it.
Lies lies lies lies.
All from a collection of stories written about a man centuries after he die in some cases, utter rubbish.
The only things a bible is good for is fuel, toilet paper or ciggarette skins...
I cant stand christianity a repellent and twisted cult, the cult of christ.
Using fear ultimately to make people believe in a judaic God stolen from older civilisations, patently a tool of power, opiate of the masses, a false religion.

Wow..you're cool.:rolleyes:

Its graphic and makes the point clear.

I dont care if u like it or not....

Retarded christian....:upyours:

Its graphic and makes the point clear.

I dont care if u like it or not....


Like wise, i don't care if you hate christianity or not, but I do care if you are going around here spewing bullshit out of your mouth, being intolerant of my beliefs. I am not going around saying what you believe is nothing but lies and so forth..Grow up.

Retarded christian....:upyours:


You my friend are about to cross the line of flaming.

Thus I will say the truth about it.
It stinks.
I hope that christianity is erased from this world along with all the other idiot religions....:mp5:

Is a crock of shit, complete rubbbish, and I am more sure of it than my own existence.....its no lie what I said, I got loads more, I have really studied christianity I know what its all about.

Thus I will say the truth about it.
It stinks.

your opinion. if you hate it so much then dont post about it. makes sense ya?

Is a crock of shit, complete rubbbish, and I am more sure of it than my own existence.....its no lie what I said, I got loads more, I have really studied christianity I know what its all about.


Well..enlighten us on what its all about...

I hate christianity, I wish to help destroy it, I will do it here if need be, every little counts.

Genesis....anyone who believes it is literally insane..

Genesis....anyone who believes it is literally insane..


How bout you start a new thread about it, and quit polluting this one.

The Bible's integrity.

Cmon people, you are gonna take a load of stories written many years after christ died by some dudes translated a dozen times, edited numerous times by the Catholic church as the utter empirical truth?

Thats just stupidity.

How bout you start a new thread about it, and quit polluting this one.

How about you stop telling me what to do?

How about that huh?

There is a spirituality, but the christians have it wrong.
Its just not true, any of it.

I hate christianity, I wish to help destroy it, I will do it here if need be, every little counts.


1 John 2:18
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.

2 John 1:7
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

1 John 2:18
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.

2 John 1:7
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.


LOL
The real christ would be on my side....
Not this demi god created by a church in order to control man with fear.
I will show you who the ANTICHRISTS are and they sit in the Papal states...
Iam not your antichrist mini or maxi I just wish to end all organised religion.

How about you stop telling me what to do?

How about that huh?


Not telling you what to do, but what you are doing is hijacking the thread...not adding anything useful to the discussion presented in the OP(opening post). If you want to discuss why you hate christianity so much then create your own thread.

There is no heaven and hell, and all that happens when you die is that return to the state you was in before you was concieved....

Because thats the truth...o yes ghosts exist, so does the soul, but a vengefull polarised human hating God?

No....

Not telling you what to do, but what you are doing is hijacking the thread...not adding anything useful to the discussion presented in the OP(opening post). If you want to discuss why you hate christianity so much then create your own thread.

Please....spare me, dont reply then...

Back on subject. I was talking to a christian friend today and asked her what she thought of the rapture. She goes to a chruch called new life church..well anyways she believes it..but has no backing of it..when i made that statement she snapped on me and more or less called me an idiot and so forth for "questioning biblical scripture".. i was like show me the proof..and she signed off.. Intresting how hostile some people are over this issue

I'm a Lutheran (LCMS, not ELCA) and we believe in the Rapture, that on the Last Day all people, dead and living, will be judged by God and either join Him in the new heavens and new earth, or go with Satan for death.
We do not believe, however, that God simply will take all true believers and children "under the age of accountability" into heaven in a secret rapture. I am yet to discover a single verse in the Bible that supports that particular theory.
Oh, and we consider the Bible to be God's Word, and infallable.
And for those who are unbelievers, try not to bash us too hard. There is such a thing as taking freedom of speech too far.

Please....spare me, dont reply then...


I am just wondering, how what you are saying is in context? it has nothing to do with the rapture. You are trying to prove that christianity is bogus and stupid. im not seeing much of a connection there.

Back on subject. I was talking to a christian friend today and asked her what she thought of the rapture. She goes to a chruch called new life church..well anyways she believes it..but has no backing of it..when i made that statement she snapped on me and more or less called me an idiot and so forth for "questioning biblical scripture".. i was like show me the proof..and she signed off.. Intresting how hostile some people are over this issue

Well I do apologise...I had you as a paid up fundamentalist, turns out you question scripture occasionally you daring little rascal, watch it otherwise they will be labelling you a heretic next!

144,000 off to heaven straight away....the rest take their chances, lol, you know what? I think I would rather stay with the rest of us, I dont think I could stomach the idea of being chosen over some other poor slob.
Heaven can keep them, the Earth will keep my bones.

There is such a thing as taking freedom of speech too far.

Actually mate, I dont live in psycho land with you guys, I live in europe, where we value democracy.

Actually mate, I dont live in psycho land with you guys, I live in europe, where we value democracy.

Ps I will say what I damn well like.

This is why I despise your evil religion utterly, and would pray feverently to any dark god(s) hanging around to remove the cancers of christianity and Islam from the earth.

I'm a Lutheran (LCMS, not ELCA) and we believe in the Rapture, that on the Last Day all people, dead and living, will be judged by God and either join Him in the new heavens and new earth, or go with Satan for death.
Isn't that considered the resurrection of the dead? not the rapture..

We do not believe, however, that God simply will take all true believers and children "under the age of accountability" into heaven in a secret rapture. I am yet to discover a single verse in the Bible that supports that particular theory. isn't this what the rapture means, instead of what you said for the first part?

Oh, and we consider the Bible to be God's Word, and infallable.
And for those who are unbelievers, try not to bash us too hard. There is such a thing as taking freedom of speech too far.

I believe God's word is infallable, but sometimes i wonder about the bible. Note i don't consider the two as the same right there. I say that because man wrote it, and some time after events happened. Like the Torah(first 5 books of the OT) was made some 1000 yrs or so after it was to have happened. it was only carried by oral tradition. so you can see how things might change from the original. Now if God speaks directly to you, his actual word to you, that is infallable.

I believe God's word is infallable, but sometimes i wonder about the bible. Note i don't consider the two as the same right there. I say that because man wrote it, and some time after events happened. Like the Torah(first 5 books of the OT) was made some 1000 yrs or so after it was to have happened. it was only carried by oral tradition. so you can see how things might change from the original. Now if God speaks directly to you, his actual word to you, that is infallable.

Hey anyone who believes anything literally without even questioning it is a pea brain.
If God gave you your brains, I think he would expect you to use them...
But like I said


:headbang:

Hey anyone who believes anything literally without even questioning it is a pea brain.
If God gave you your brains, I think he would expect you to use them...
But like I said


:headbang:

look man, debate all you want, but stop insulting people...

Isn't that considered the resurrection of the dead? not the rapture..

isn't this what the rapture means, instead of what you said for the first part?



I believe God's word is infallable, but sometimes i wonder about the bible. Note i don't consider the two as the same right there. I say that because man wrote it, and some time after events happened. Like the Torah(first 5 books of the OT) was made some 1000 yrs or so after it was to have happened. it was only carried by oral tradition. so you can see how things might change from the original. Now if God speaks directly to you, his actual word to you, that is infallable.

It's part of the Missouri-Synod Lutheran's edicts that the Bible is inerrant. I'm pretty sure that the Evangelicals allow a somewhat looser interpretation, as they accept the historical account of the Bible that the Missouri-Synod does not.

Put simply, it's part of what he takes on faith that the version of the Bible he has is inerrant. That being said, as the premillenialist dispensationalism is extra-biblical, he doesn't accept it. To be honest, while I disagree with the Missouri-Synods, as far as fundies go, they are about as nice as you can get.

look man, debate all you want, but stop insulting people...

Who am I insulting, apart from fundamentalist zombies...?

Oh...surely...no...you don't think I was refering to you do you?

Goodness gracious I wouldnt dream of it...:rolleyes:

Fundamentalism

NO fun and completely mental.

Who am I insulting, apart from fundamentalist zombies...?

Oh...surely...no...you don't think I was refering to you do you?

Goodness gracious I wouldnt dream of it...:rolleyes:

Fundamentalism

NO fun and completely mental.


ok i reported you to the mods.

What for?

Nothing.

Grow up, cant handle that then you have a problem.

Just scared...like all christians.

I consider myself agnostic, therefore, don't know...don't care!!!

SCared of what? Of a guy who can't debate without insulting everyone who disagrees with him? Oh and your little freedom of speech does not apply here on NationStates.

I have noticed about christians, is a big wide streak of cowardice, probably why they go whining to god every 10 minutes.
If I was God I would be utterly sick of them.:mad:

SCared of what? Of a guy who can't debate without insulting everyone who disagrees with him? Oh and your little freedom of speech does not apply here on NationStates.

Show me where I direclty insult a user....

I have noticed about christians, is a big wide streak of cowardice, probably why they go whining to god every 10 minutes.
If I was God I would be utterly sick of them.:mad:


THank God your not God then.

the Rapture?

Some believe that it is a time when God will call his children home, those that are left will be the unbelievers and the false prophets. it will also be the time of the Anti-christ and the start of the End of Days.
lol.
Funny stuff. You just come up with that now?

I hate christianity, I wish to help destroy it, I will do it here if need be, every little counts.


While its not an insult the mods can consider that flamebait to those of us who believe.

THank God your not God then.

Dont worry, no being in existence hates humans more than the Christian God, he practicaly bathes in the blood of man, well figureatively speaking...

Ok let us ignore that guy/girl/it. just trying to get attention.

lets get back on topic of the rapture.which i don't believe in. i want someone with scriptual proof, especially if it was the words of Christ, that a rapture is going to happen.

While its not an insult the mods can consider that flamebait to those of us who believe.

So its my fault if I get flamed?

No personal responsibilty?

NO rigghttt christians sorry I forgot....

Ok let us ignore that guy/girl/it. just trying to get attention.

lets get back on topic of the rapture.which i don't believe in. i want someone with scriptual proof , especially if it was the words of Christ, that a rapture is going to happen.
Isn't that an oxymoron?

Ok let us ignore that guy/girl/it. just trying to get attention.
lets get back on topic of the rapture.which i don't believe in. i want someone with scriptual proof, especially if it was the words of Christ, that a rapture is going to happen.

Attention?
LOL

No....my motives are not so shallow.

I am going anyway, I wasnt trying to convert you, as I know what you guys are like....its rather sad.

Isn't that an oxymoron?

why do you say that?

A christian's belief with logic.
The first thing they do is refuse to discuss any further, typical behaviour from any one who knos deep down they may be wrong...but ahhh they so want it to be true.....

Load of rubbish, becasue...

Its like assuming that this was the only planet in the universe, you think the creator of the universe revolves the entire angelic struggle of good and evil over this shitty little planet?

ROFLMAO

The number of galaxies is legion....;)

I believe Rapture is a good, though experimental, song by Blondie.

I believe Rapture is a good, though experimental, song by Blondie.

:D

I scared em away, poor little creatures.

Always putting their faith before anything else.....so utterly alien to me.

I am a Christian and sort of believe in the rapture. I have been studying Revelations with some of my closest friends. I came across this passage. (It is in Revelations 3)
7"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Now the first time I read over it, I completly missed the rapture part. It is in verses 10 and 11. This is the only group (the number 7 represents completness, this means that though John was writing to seven real churches, I believe that each church represents a group of people and in those seven letters all Christians are adressed) promised to be kept from the hour of trial. This means that all other Christians will have to suffer through this 'hour'. (And no- I would not be in this group, I relate to a different church).

10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

Now the first time I read over it, I completly missed the rapture part. IT is in verses 10 and 11.
(I have to go, will finish post later)

No, it says that God will protect christians from some sort of harm(id think spiritual) in the time of tribulation. doesn't say that people would be sent into the sky.

You have a telegram...

You cant even agree on which way God intends to punish you for being human next lol

If God was anything as monstrous as you depict, I would rather have never been born.

Luckily 'he' isnt.

Stop worshipping Christ as God, it is blasphemy as stated in the old testament frequently.....;)

Whether the Rapture is true or not, a lot of people use the end of the world to scare people into being Christians. I had to do a report on Jehovah's Witnesses and they would predict the end of the world every 50 years or so. Basically any time there numbers started dwindling, they went out and started saying we're all going to die.

Worked like a charm, too.

LOL
The real christ would be on my side....
Not this demi god created by a church in order to control man with fear.
I will show you who the ANTICHRISTS are and they sit in the Papal states...
Iam not your antichrist mini or maxi I just wish to end all organised religion.

I am not a Roman Catholic.

Non-denominational Protestant.

What translation of the Bible do you trust?

I carry an NASB, and normally quote from NASB, NIV or NKJV while on-line.

Whether the Rapture is true or not, a lot of people use the end of the world to scare people into being Christians. I had to do a report on Jehovah's Witnesses and they would predict the end of the world every 50 years or so. Basically any time there numbers started dwindling, they went out and started saying we're all going to die.

Worked like a charm, too.

You my friend are utterly correct.
This is the primary lever of christianity, eternal death...
What kind of God plays judge jury and executioner with its own creation?
A sadistic narcisist in my opinion...

Load of rubbish, becasue...

Its like assuming that this was the only planet in the universe, you think the creator of the universe revolves the entire angelic struggle of good and evil over this shitty little planet?

ROFLMAO

The number of galaxies is legion....;)

Hmmm...legion...

by any chance, is your name LINOGE?

Hmmm...legion...

by any chance, is your name LINOGE?

Stephen King?
LOL

No my name is Simon.

Which in hebrew means 'God is listening' :eek:

How about you stop telling me what to do?

How about that huh?Fine. How about I tell you to follow the forum rules and knock this nonsense off?

And take a few days off, troll.

- The Most Glorious Hack
Nationstates Game Moderator

Ok let us ignore that guy/girl/it. just trying to get attention.

lets get back on topic of the rapture.which i don't believe in. i want someone with scriptual proof, especially if it was the words of Christ, that a rapture is going to happen.
my brother in law was in the navy. he tells a story of when he was serving on a submarine in the pacific.

they had official alternate duty lists to cover if someone got sick or killed on the job or something to make sure that his job was being done while he was unable to do it

there was a group of rapture believing christians on the boat who worked out an alternate duty list just in case they got taken by the rapture while on duty.

it must have been hard to explain to another sailor that you were pretty sure he would still be available for duty if the rapture came.

1 John 2:18
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.

2 John 1:7
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
sweet, Im the anti-christ

EDIT.

Beaten to it by Hack. :p

A popular local chruch here does a little thing called a "Judgemant Journey" every year around Halloween, you pay money to walk through a couple of acres of what it will be like post Christ's return, what with the Christian concentration camps and all, and then not 30 seconds after having a " Satanist" hold a rifle to your face for not accepting the mark of the beast you're ushered into a white tent with a Priest and asked to repent and accept God.

'Nuff said
Ooh! Sounds like vacation time!

So - how many people believe in the Biblical God... and also believe in the 'Rapture'?

If you DO believe in the Rapture.... how do you justify it?

Like a majority of the Christians around the world, I do not believe in "the rapture" as it has been outlined by the various premillenialist views.

So - I ask, is this a local phenomenon? How MANY Christians accept the Rapture as valid?

Any Christian who is not:

1. Roman Catholic
2. Greek, Russian, or any other various form of Eastern Orthodox
3. Presbyterian, Contenental Reformed, or any other various direct descendant of the Reformed Churches
4. Reformed Baptists
5. Any of the various groups of Anabaptist descent.

IOW, about 18%-20% of Christians in the United States, and less than 5% worldwide believe in the "popular" idea of the "rapture".

that seemed like a copy and paste job if i ever saw one...

Actually, no it wasn't... but thanks for the comment. :cool:

Dont believe a word of it.
Lies lies lies lies.
All from a collection of stories written about a man centuries after he die in some cases, utter rubbish.
The only things a bible is good for is fuel, toilet paper or ciggarette skins...
I cant stand christianity a repellent and twisted cult, the cult of christ.
Using fear ultimately to make people believe in a judaic God stolen from older civilisations, patently a tool of power, opiate of the masses, a false religion.

Again, I restate that my post was not intended to be persuasive but informative. I'm merely trying to give a body of information about which people seemed to be confused. If you don't want to believe what I wrote down, that's fine. I'm not even sure exactly how much of it I believe. However, feel free to have constructive open dialogue about it. If you want to critique or debate my points and my logic, feel free, but if all you have to say is that it's stupid propoganda, or you're going to bash on it without any mental interaction, then I have nothing further to say to you. I don't think I'm smarter than anyone or have all the answers, but I would like to dialogue intelligently so that I can come to a better understanding of what the truth is. Keeping in mind that in my worldview I hold the Bible to be the inerrant, infallible word of God and therefore when it speaks on a subject, I hold that to be truth. I will also understand that you may not see the same way.

I invite open discussion. Have a great day!

Thus I will say the truth about it.
It stinks.
I hope that christianity is erased from this world along with all the other idiot religions....:mp5:

I'm an Atheist... and you're offendin me...

If you just want to type random vitriol, and have no interest in this thread... feel free to open up your word processor, and type it all in there.

That way, maybe you can get it out of your system... and we don't have to see it.

Back on subject. I was talking to a christian friend today and asked her what she thought of the rapture. She goes to a chruch called new life church..well anyways she believes it..but has no backing of it..when i made that statement she snapped on me and more or less called me an idiot and so forth for "questioning biblical scripture".. i was like show me the proof..and she signed off.. Intresting how hostile some people are over this issue

I've encountered the same thing, face-to-face....

Like a majority of the Christians around the world, I do not believe in "the rapture" as it has been outlined by the various premillenialist views.

Ditto. I answered "other" because while I DO believe in a Rapture, it is NOT what you were referring to that I believe in. Personally, I'm not entirely sure what it is, and really think the whole thing is much more non-literal than many people take it as. I mean, for crying out loud, the whole thing has "and I saw in a dream" and "and I saw something like" and "as it were" thorughout. When's the last time your dreams made perfect literal sense? Even prophetic dreams are still going to be dreams, y'know. Look at Daniel's translations of OTHER dreams? They sure weren't literal. Why should these be?

Actually, I tend to lean currently towards an "amillenial" position (Rapture, but no thousand years after that... just the whole thing in one big shebang) or possibly a pessamistic post-millenial view (things are getting worse, and eventually will enter -or possibly already have entered- a thousand year period of tribulation, and after that's over, the Christians get Raptured and the end of the world as we know it happens.) Neither of which are really what you're talking about, but me and a whole lot of other people think these or other options not included here.