NationStates Jolt Archive

It's a massive melee of every battleship around the beginning of WWII (since it would be unfair to include Iowa :D ). Calm ocean, clear weather, and plenty of space to maneuver. Each ship faces off against each other one-on-one. Which one comes out with the most wins?


IJN Yamato
KMS Bismarck
RM Vittorio Veneto
FNS Richelieu
HMS King George V
USS North Carolina

Go play Fighting Steel and you will find the answer you seek.

Yamato.

Yes, the Yamato would win.

It's a massive melee of every battleship around the beginning of WWII (since it would be unfair to include Iowa :D ). Calm ocean, clear weather, and plenty of space to maneuver. Each ship faces off against each other one-on-one. Which one comes out with the most wins?


IJN Yamato
KMS Bismarck
RM Vittorio Veneto
FNS Richelieu
HMS King George V
USS North Carolina


In what order will they fight?

The fiendish orientals would scupper all the rest.

Seriously the Yamato would pwn the rest.

Actually even if you do include the Iowa, Yamato would sink it also. Yamato was the most powerful battleship ever created. Its armor was ungodly thick and Iowa had less (although it was better steel) the weaponry on the Yamato was so good that the generals decided to use airplanes to sink it.

One on one with ANY battleship or even 2-3 on one the Yamato and Iowa would wreck total havoc on the rest.

In what order will they fight?
Any, they each fight all of the other ships at least once

Any, they each fight all of the other ships at least once

As if there was any doubt who would win all hands-down.

I would take a Montana class Battle Ship. It would lay an ass woopin on the Yamato. The Montana class BB was never completed because the end of WWII. But it was much larger than the Iowa class and larger than the Yamato.

Larger, but not as powerful. Why do you think everyone refers to Iowa as the best?

Actually even if you do include the Iowa, Yamato would sink it also. Yamato was the most powerful battleship ever created. Its armor was ungodly thick and Iowa had less (although it was better steel) the weaponry on the Yamato was so good that the generals decided to use airplanes to sink it.

One on one with ANY battleship or even 2-3 on one the Yamato and Iowa would wreck total havoc on the rest.

Wrong, Iowa class speed and fire control was superior to the Yamato class, as was its construction. Plus their superheavy AP shells were approx. equal in penetration to the 18" guns.

Yamato was ginormous, but remember that "size matters not." She had weaknesses, just like all the others.

The one thing that the Yamato really lacks, which everyone overlooks because it's got beefy guns and really thick armor, is good fire control and targeting systems.

The two biggest contenders would be the North Carolina and the Yamato, they'd have the most evenly matched fight. They Yamato had obvious firepower advantages, a slight advantage in overall armor protection, but its disadvantage in its fire control systems level the playing field a bit for the North Carolina.

Though, if you had an Iowa-class battleship on the list... forget it haha.

I would take a Montana class Battle Ship. It would lay an ass woopin on the Yamato. The Montana class BB was never completed because the end of WWII. But it was much larger than the Iowa class and larger than the Yamato.

You missed the point that these were all in existence at the start of WWII. So something that was never completed because WWII ended hardly qualifies.

I would take a Montana class Battle Ship. It would lay an ass woopin on the Yamato. The Montana class BB was never completed because the end of WWII. But it was much larger than the Iowa class and larger than the Yamato.

THOSE would have been the unstoppable. Plus, 12x16" guns would fire a much heavier broadside than 9x18" guns.

You missed the point that these were all in existence at the start of WWII. So something that was never completed because WWII ended hardly qualifies.

Were Yamato and Musashi operational at the start of the war? I always had the impression that they didn't enter service with the Japanese navy until after Midway.

Wrong, Iowa class speed and fire control was superior to the Yamato class, as was its construction. Plus their superheavy AP shells were approx. equal in penetration to the 18" guns.

Speed and firing yes. Though it was brute power. The true power of the Yamato was never tested as it was destroyed by the air and not ships. It still took 18 major hits before it was destroyed also.

Were Yamato and Musashi operational at the start of the war? I always had the impression that they didn't enter service with the Japanese navy until after Midway.
No, actually Yamato was at Midway, the second group that was coming in behind the carrier had the battleships and the troop transports ment for an actual landing.

Once Enterprise managed to sink half of the carries and Adm. Yamamoto lost all air support, he knew it was rather pointless.

And Yamato for the win, or whoever brings a carrier group to the fight. ;)

Its one on one battleships...no air support :P

The Iowa class had superior targeting to the Yamoto class, allowing it to engage the Yamoto before the Yamoto could engage it. Luck would be a factor but I think that the Iowa would have a much better chance.

However, the thread title excludes the Iowa. I would put my money on the North Carolina for roughly the same reasons as the Iowa, although it would probably be so close that luck would be the deciding factor.

The Iowa class had superior targeting to the Yamoto class, allowing it to engage the Yamoto before the Yamoto could engage it. Luck would be a factor but I think that the Iowa would have a much better chance.

However, the thread title excludes the Iowa. I would put my money on the North Carolina for roughly the same reasons as the Iowa, although it would probably be so close that luck would be the deciding factor.
The armor isn't as good and the guns were bigger. I think Yamato would have gotten the Showboat to the bottom first.

Out of the battleships you gave, Yamato is the clear winner, thanks to its thick armor and 18-inch guns. The North Carolina and the Vittorio Veneto would be vying for second place.

If an Iowa-class or ship had been included in the poll, then the Yamato would have a serious challenger; however, the North Carolina was designed with some of the Washington Treaty restrictions in mind, so its armor was weaker than that on the later South Dakota and Iowa classes.

Given the presence of the Yamato on this list, I also think that the HMS Rodney would have been a better choice of British ship than the King George, since the Rodney had larger guns (16-inch vs. 14-inch) and would thus have a better chance of penetrating the Yamato's armor.

I would take a Montana class Battle Ship. It would lay an ass woopin on the Yamato. The Montana class BB was never completed because the end of WWII. But it was much larger than the Iowa class and larger than the Yamato.

Sure, but the Japanese also had their Kai-Yamato class planned, that would have had 50.8cm guns...the Montana would have been in the same technological group as this ship (which obviously was never completed either). It's hardly fair comparing it to these vessels which are from a different technological generation.

It's a massive melee of every battleship around the beginning of WWII (since it would be unfair to include Iowa :D ). Calm ocean, clear weather, and plenty of space to maneuver. Each ship faces off against each other one-on-one. Which one comes out with the most wins?


IJN Yamato
KMS Bismarck
RM Vittorio Veneto
FNS Richelieu
HMS King George V
USS North Carolina


I don't know much about Richelieu, although the King George's were notoriously finicky with an inexperienced crew.

To be honest, I'd put my money on Bismarck. The Tirpitz's combined immensely sturdy construction with what by early-war standards was some of the most advanced fire control available. The 2x4 gun placement is in my mind better than the 3x3 gun placement used by the Musachi's, because it provides for more all-around and mobile firing rather than relying on the difficult and potentially dangerous crossing-the-T maneuver. Admittedly, the gun force is a little lower than either the Iowa's 16"/50s or the Musachi's 18"/45s, but they were nevertheless potent, and combined with the heavy armoring, high top speed, and long range of the Bismarck, I think it could well wear down the others in an engagement.

HA! The USS North Carolina was one awesome ship. I would love to have seen an engagement between the North Carolina and the Yamato.

Still, give me a fleet of 12 PT Boats and I could sink the lot of them! ;)

http://www.warbirdphotos.net/aviapix/DiveBomb/SB2C/SB2C.JPG

and

http://www.btinternet.com/~lee_mail/TBF-5.jpg

Win. Sorry but battleships just get pwned by aircraft.

http://www.warbirdphotos.net/aviapix/DiveBomb/SB2C/SB2C.JPG

and

http://www.btinternet.com/~lee_mail/TBF-5.jpg

Win. Sorry but battleships just get pwned by aircraft.

That's kind of a given.

Win. Sorry but battleships just get pwned by aircraft.
Which is why no one uses them any more. Why build one when the next carrier group that wanders along will sink it?

That's kind of a given.
As I recall, it's also responsible for the demise of the battleship.

Still, give me a fleet of 12 PT Boats and I could sink the lot of them! ;)

You sure about that? ;)


Which is why no one uses them any more. Why build one when the next carrier group that wanders along will sink it?

Yeah, but...

Guided missile cruisers FTW. :p

You sure about that? ;)
Well ... no. My specialty was counterinsurgency ops. But it sounded good! :D

Well ... no. My specialty was counterinsurgency ops. But it sounded good! :D

It'd certainly be interesting to watch. :D

Yeah, but...

Guided missile cruisers FTW. :p
Oh I don't know, the carrier group would probably find said crusiers before the cruiser can find the carrier. Then the scouts call in the airwing and... bye bye.

And yes, the Iowa class did a very good job as a platform for shooting off missiles, but really now... submarines do it better. ;)

Were Yamato and Musashi operational at the start of the war? I always had the impression that they didn't enter service with the Japanese navy until after Midway.

Oh they were most definitely in service. Admiral Yamamoto was on the Yamato during the Pearl Harbor Raid I believe.

As to this thread, I would have no choice but to pick the Yamato

The Yamato wins, easily. Especially if it's commanded by admiral Yamamoto.

They had to use planes to sink it for a reason, you know.

No, actually Yamato was at Midway, the second group that was coming in behind the carrier had the battleships and the troop transports ment for an actual landing.

Once Enterprise managed to sink half of the carries and Adm. Yamamoto lost all air support, he knew it was rather pointless.

And Yamato for the win, or whoever brings a carrier group to the fight. ;)

At Midway, all 4 Japanese Carriers were sunk as well as a cruiser. A light one if I recall correctly.

This guy (http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm#categories) gives a pretty good analysis. He takes into account things like fire control, underwater protection and 'tactical factors', meaning speed, damage control etc. He includes the Iowa, but if you knock that off of the list you'll come out with some interesting results. In addition, he places the South Dakota on the list rather than the North Carolina, but as I understand it both ships were very similar.

From what I remember about the Italian navy, it had especially fast and maneuverable ships... now, while the Yamato would certainly be able to blast the Vittorio Veneto into oblivion, I wonder whether she'd be able to catch up with the Italians.

Of course, I'm no expert.

This guy (http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm#categories) gives a pretty good analysis. He takes into account things like fire control, underwater protection and 'tactical factors', meaning speed, damage control etc. He includes the Iowa, but if you knock that off of the list you'll come out with some interesting results. In addition, he places the South Dakota on the list rather than the North Carolina, but as I understand it both ships were very similar.

Damn good analysis I must say. I will take this guys word for it and now I know who the winner of a toe to toe match vs the Yamato and the Iowa.

At Midway, all 4 Japanese Carriers were sunk as well as a cruiser. A light one if I recall correctly.
Yes, all four of them were, but not all at once. IIRC what happened is that airwings from Hornet failed to cause any damage, but divebombers from Enterprise found and damaged half of the carriers in 8 minutes, the third was found and attacked by Yorktown airwings.

Adm. Yamamoto, learning of this, stopped the second colum of Japanese ship (with himself on the flag bridge of Yamato) from actually approching Midway till he could get word on if the American carriers were found and destroyed. They got Yorktown and never really touched Enterprise and Hornet. The airwings from Enterprise and Hornet finished off the fourth carrier.

Which is why no one uses them any more. Why build one when the next carrier group that wanders along will sink it?

Well, actually nobody builds them anymore because there's only one superpower that maintains an active blue-water fleet today...If combat on the high seas between large fleets were actually a likely scenario, a modern battleship [rather than one from WW2] would be quite capable of defending itself from air attacks with a half-decent battlegroup, it's own escort carrier and a modern air defence system with SAMs and non half-assed point defence.

It's worth noting that the battleship losses in WW2 to aircraft tended to be massively uneven situations; Bismarck versus several carriers with an obsolete armour scheme on her steering gear, Prince of Wales versus Japanese land-based bombers with serious poorly-patched damage from when she was bombed while being built, Yamato versus >300 aircraft on her own...It's like putting an infantry division against one Abrams and declaring the tank obsolete because it can't defeat such ridiculous odds.

Battleships are also the best type of ship you can get for supporting landing operations; no carrier can persistantly lay down the volumes of fire a battleship can.

Oh I don't know, the carrier group would probably find said crusiers before the cruiser can find the carrier. Then the scouts call in the airwing and... bye bye.

And yes, the Iowa class did a very good job as a platform for shooting off missiles, but really now... submarines do it better. ;)

Ah, they're generally armed to the brim with anti-aircraft weaponry too...

This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirov_class_battlecruiser) might have done some nasty damage to a group, and I don't think that airwing would be saying "bye bye" to it so easily. But eh, who knows...

I pick a Swordfish with a set of torpedoes.

Or a Ticonderoga or Sovremenny.

I pick a Swordfish with a set of torpedoes.

You get a Swordfish. You examine the Swordfish and find it has one torpedo. You are against the Yamato. The Yamato, unlike the Bismarck, was not designed before Jutland and does not have extremely poor armour on her steering gear. Since you are the only plane in the sky, you get shot down. You are dead.

You scored 2 out of a possible 300 points. Continue? Y/N

You get a Swordfish. You examine the Swordfish and find it has one torpedo. You are against the Yamato. The Yamato, unlike the Bismarck, was not designed before Jutland and does not have extremely poor armour on her steering gear. You get shot down. You are dead.

You scored 2 out of a possible 300 points. Continue? Y/N

"Bombs Away!", right? I wrote my own version of that when I was 10 or so. :p

You scored 2 out of a possible 300 points. Continue? Y/N
Yay! :D

I pick 'Yes', and choose a pack of Type XXI Submarines under the command of Otto Kretschmer.

Yay! :D

I pick 'Yes', and choose a pack of Type XXI Submarines under the command of Otto Kretschmer.

Let's go with the Tincoderoga instead, it's more fun.

You get a Ticonderoga! You examine it to find two five-inch guns and some missiles, along with maybe half an inch of armour if you're lucky.

Suddenly, God appears and criticises you harshly for using a modern warship against one from WW2. He waves his hands and the world changes to bring the levels of technology into alignment.

You are fighting the Arbitarily Resurrected Soviet Union's battleship Tunguska. It's got 9 18-inch guns firing rocket-assisted shells, 2 inches of composite armour backed up by 18 inches of face-hardened steel, a system comparable to your own AEGIS, at least twice as many cruise missiles as you, 16 point defence systems, modern ECM and a stack of anti-missile SAMs. And it looks hungry.

You are even deader. Your score is PWNED. Continue? Y/N

You are fighting the Arbitarily Resurrected Soviet Union's battleship Tunguska...
Have you got a link on that? Sounds interesting.

Your score is PWNED. Continue? Y/N
I got nothing. Short of some sort of sub, I've run out of options.

Have you got a link on that? Sounds interesting.

Random extrapotation. Real ships have been built with 18-inch guns, there's a rocket-assisted round for the Iowas already, and there's no real challenge to putting missiles or AEGIS on a huge great ship.

That's your 'modern' battleship, not some old thingy from WW2 with missiles stuck on the top. I just wish someone would get on and build one >.<

That's your 'modern' battleship, not some old thingy from WW2 with missiles stuck on the top. I just wish someone would get on and build one >.<
I suppose it would just be too easy to spot with radar, and could be taken out either by subs, tactical nukes or just enough anti-ship missiles. Considering the quality of the offensive weaponry out there, maybe they're just figuring that if something has to be hit, it's better for it to be something smaller.

That's your 'modern' battleship, not some old thingy from WW2 with missiles stuck on the top. I just wish someone would get on and build one >.<
Because, as noted, a carrier goup can take them out. Yes, I know your example, but in the swarm of planes, battleships go down. No ship carries THAT many AA and the plans can now engage ASM from out of range of AA.

Because, as noted, a carrier goup can take them out. Yes, I know your example, but in the swarm of planes, battleships go down. No ship carries THAT many AA and the plans can now engage ASM from out of range of AA.

Not strictly true, no current generation carrier aircraft launched ASM is capable of pentrating more than say 4-6"s of armour and none have a range of over 200kms IIRC, modern pentrator bombs would likely work quite well but you need to get within 5-20kms at high altittude to use them.
On the other hand SAMs do have ranges appraoching 250kms these days.
Oh and for the rpice of your single carrier and its airwing i can get 2 very mdoern battleships with more SAMs than you have planes... heck i could get a couple of modern criusers with more sams than you have planes. Of course once you start adding escorts things get more fun.

booya (http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/3171/yamatoschem3ie.jpg)

booya (http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/3171/yamatoschem3ie.jpg)

Too bad it blew up! :D

I think the Yamato (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Battleship_Yamato) would indeed pwn j00 411..... :P

Too bad it blew up! :D
shush, you :p

Yes, all four of them were, but not all at once. IIRC what happened is that airwings from Hornet failed to cause any damage, but divebombers from Enterprise found and damaged half of the carriers in 8 minutes, the third was found and attacked by Yorktown airwings.

The Akagi, Kaga, and Soryu were destroyed within 6 minutes. The Hiryu was later destroyed awhile later. The Enterprise Airwings took out the Akagi and Kaga while the Yorktown wing took out the Soryu. The Hiryu was also attack but no hits.

Later the Hiryu attacked and nearly sank the USS Yorktown but the crew managed to keep the ship afloat (later sunk by a submarine). It was, in fact the planes from the Hornet and the Enterprise that took out the Hiryu.

Adm. Yamamoto, learning of this, stopped the second colum of Japanese ship (with himself on the flag bridge of Yamato) from actually approching Midway till he could get word on if the American carriers were found and destroyed. They got Yorktown and never really touched Enterprise and Hornet. The airwings from Enterprise and Hornet finished off the fourth carrier.

This is indeed correct. 3 ships destroyed on the 4th of June followed by the 4th on the 5th of June. 75% of the force was wiped out in one day. Out of 6 Carriers, this battle utterly destroyed their carrier force. 66% of the force was wiped out at Midway.

Still, give me a fleet of 12 PT Boats and I could sink the lot of them! ;)

Or if you want to continue in the unconventional mode, use a frogman unit to sabotage the BB in port. ;)
(And the Italian 1° Flottiglia Mezzi d'Assalto was formed in 1938, thus allowing frogmen under the start date. Of further note, the Austrian-Hungarian BB SMS Viribus Unitis was sunk by Italian proto-frogmen in 1918.)

Because, as noted, a carrier goup can take them out.

A carrier group could also take out a lone carrier. Let's stop building carriers! Or, um, you could use fair odds, which gives the battleship a escort group as well, presumably including a smaller escort carrier [say a 43,000 ton Kiev instead of your 97,000 ton Nimitz].

In this case your carrier group would be in a whole heap of trouble. It's also worth noting that WW2 battleships with inaccurate AA couldn't stop aircraft flying directly above them to drop bombs, which is the only way a carrier-based aircraft can seriously damage a battleship's deck armour: most modern anti-ship missiles would simply bounce off heavy warship armour. That'd mean you'd need to make suicidally close runs with missiles with light propellant loads versus heavy warheads, use enormous missiles that could only be carried by strategic bombers, or hope you could beat modern active anti-torpedo systems Admiral Kuznetsov that the Russians claim can hit targets 3 kilometres away] and the ship's belt armour. Remember it took in the region of 20 direct torpedo hits with additional bomb damage to sink the Musashi and Yamato, and our fictional Tunguska class can intercept torpedos before they hit and has better armour.

Any way you look at it, in a fair fight as opposed to sitting the battleship in the middle of the ocean while you get a whole carrier group to attack it with, it's not such an easy thing to get rid of. As I said, the reason nobody builds battleships anymore is because there's only one major blue-water navy in the world today and it isn't planning an engagement against another large fleet anytime soon.

I'm thinking Battleships will be making a come back, given the development of the rail gun.

Nope...would make even smaller ships because a rail-gun hit will wipe out anything it hits. :P

Nope...would make even smaller ships because a rail-gun hit will wipe out anything it hits. :P

Well, not exactly...It needs to be powered, so we need a ship big enough for a large generator or nuclear reactor, it needs a big bank of capacitors for the fast-discharge power it requires to actually fire the thing, it needs enough mass to absorb the recoil of the thing, it needs cooling systems...And this is without any gear to aim or target the thing.

Add to that enough armour to make it something other than a deathtrap, and you've got a battlship-sized ship. Railguns aren't magic; tiny railgun rounds fired at high mach numbers may have a lot of kinetic energy, but they have very low momentum compared to a very large low-velocity shell, and are actually much easier to stop.

Our ship set for 2011 has 80 MW for the reactor output and its suitable for the railgun, but I doubt it will go to battleship type again.

I disagree. Battleships will make a comeback when lightspeed weapons (lasers and particle beams) wipe the skies of aircraft.

You'll need some pretty powerful reactors to charge up the heavy railguns, lasers and other Very High Speed weapons. And plenty of foamed aluminium and multilayer carbon-boron armour to take a hit from one. The obvious result is the return of the Battleship - though probably in a semi-submersible form (at least) and much more maneuverable than the older types.

I disagree. Battleships will make a comeback when lightspeed weapons (lasers and particle beams) wipe the skies of aircraft.


At that tech level, we'd probably see battleships alright. Just not in the water. Depends on whether we can get enough nations and a chunk of their population/strategic capability, off planet to encourage an arms race.