NationStates Jolt Archive

I need a hand in making a potentially momumental decision and lets face it, who better to give honest unbiased advice then complete stragers from an internet forum.

I am currently enrolled in the Navy DEP (Delayed Entry Program) and I am scheduled to ship for basic in August, I have been enrolled nearly a year now, I intially opted for the DEP status because I wanted to finish my senior year of high school. Now nearing the end of my senior year other, more appealing, opprotunities have presented themselves.

Question is it immoral of me to get married (acquiring a wife would require waiver of responsibility voiding my current contract) in order breach a miliary contract and then immediately afterwards have the marriage anulled?

I say go for it.

Well, "immoral" or not isn't really the question I think.

The question is rather if you would be comfortable with yourself doing that (and honestly, I'm more concerned about your marrying like that than about the Navy) plus, even more important, how you expect to pull this off in respect to the bride-to-be.

I mean, if you have a girlfriend who is all for it and doesn't have a problem with it whatsoever and thinks it's the best and only idea, sure, go for it.

If not - eeh, not so sure.

Of course, the most obvious question is: Is there really no other way to get out of the contract?

If you really think you'd be better off taking those oppurtunities as opposed to joining the navy, and there's no other option to viod the contract then go find yourself a woman.

I need a hand in making a potentially momumental decision and lets face it, who better to give honest unbiased advice then complete stragers from an internet forum.

I am currently enrolled in the Navy DEP (Delayed Entry Program) and I am scheduled to ship for basic in August, I have been enrolled nearly a year now, I intially opted for the DEP status because I wanted to finish my senior year of high school. Now nearing the end of my senior year other, more appealing, opprotunities have presented themselves.

Question is it immoral of me to get married (acquiring a wife would require waiver of responsibility voiding my current contract) in order breach a miliary contract and then immediately afterwards have the marriage anulled?
Far as I know, until you take the final oath and leave for basic, they can't force you to go. You'll want to check with an expert not connected with the military to verify that, but that's what I understand--until you actually ship out, you can get out of your deal, especially if you signed before you were 18.

Well, "immoral" or not isn't really the question I think.

The question is rather if you would be comfortable with yourself doing that (and honestly, I'm more concerned about your marrying like that than about the Navy) plus, even more important, how you expect to pull this off in respect to the bride-to-be.

I mean, if you have a girlfriend who is all for it and doesn't have a problem with it whatsoever and thinks it's the best and only idea, sure, go for it.

If not - eeh, not so sure.

Of course, the most obvious question is: Is there really no other way to get out of the contract?


I have a girlfriend who if I did marry I fear wouldn't let me out of it so easily so I would marry a cool friend who is all for it.

And there is 1 other way-Have a child
They Navy has recently resneded its waiver requirement for identifying marks except for Seals and certain officers otherwise I would get a tatoo

Far as I know, until you take the final oath and leave for basic, they can't force you to go. You'll want to check with an expert not connected with the military to verify that, but that's what I understand--until you actually ship out, you can get out of your deal, especially if you signed before you were 18.

I was 18 when I signed and I can voluntarily walk, but I still have to do basic and 4 years in the reserves.

You should be asking a lawyer. You signed a contract and I know when you fake a marriage for citizenship there are all kinds of penalties.

You should be asking a lawyer. You signed a contract and I know when you fake a marriage for citizenship there are all kinds of penalties.

Ya but this isn't for citizenship. Also, I mentioned finding out how long you have to stay married for.

First off, morality is relative. That's up to you and only you to determine. What's more important is the legal aspect, and what the personal consequences of this 'fake' marriage would be. All in all, though, sounds like a slick scheme ;)

And there is 1 other way-Have a child
Do what you want, really, but if you have a child to get yourself out of a contract you signed, I'll come over there personally to kick your ass. And hard.

I was 18 when I signed and I can voluntarily walk, but I still have to do basic and 4 years in the reserves.
Check on that, because you may be able to walk with absolutely no obligations, and check with someone not military. Saying you can walk but you still have to do the reserves makes no sense, because the Reserves are seeing as much duty as the active folks are right now, and the idea, I assume, is to get out of the duty altogether.

Do what you want, really, but if you have a child to get yourself out of a contract you signed, I'll come over there personally to kick your ass. And hard.
I wouldn't do that, that is beyond even me.

Ya but this isn't for citizenship. Also, I mentioned finding out how long you have to stay married for.

There is no time limit for anullments as long as you can prove the marriage should never have happened/ could not legally happen or was performed by deception such as the girl being drunker than hell, or myself whoever

Do what you want, really, but if you have a child to get yourself out of a contract you signed, I'll come over there personally to kick your ass. And hard.

Is it okay with you if he adopts?

By my standards it is immoral, not only because it makes light of marriage, which I think should be a serious and life-long committment, but also because it is using a loophole to get out of a contract signed in good faith between you and your navy. There should be some way for you to get out of your contract without doing anything underhanded. Supposing you do opt for the marriage out, be sure to get a prenuptuial agreement and be clear with your spouse that this is a marriage of convenience.

You should have checked to see what sort of "escape clause" there was in the contract before you signed it. You have to review what your contractural obligations are. If you have not received any benefit from the navy as part of the contract, in theory you should be able to leave it.

Depending on how long your minimum committment to naval employment is, your other opportunities may still be around. If you only owe them four years or something, why not go through with it and explore your other options when a discharge window opens?

"Immoral" is a lie spread by self-righteous asshats who like to tell other people what to do and how to live in order to compensate for a 3 inch penis.

If you want out, get out. You are under no obligations right now.

There is no time limit for anullments as long as you can prove the marriage should never have happened/ could not legally happen or was performed by deception such as the girl being drunker than hell, or myself whoever
and how do you intend on proving it? since you are right now planning on getting married so that you can get it anulled. It's premeditated, and the Navy isn't a group you really want to mess with.

You signed the contract, act like a grown up and do what you said you would.

as for the immoral, probably, but I would be more worried about it being illegal. ;)

I need a hand in making a potentially momumental decision and lets face it, who better to give honest unbiased advice then complete stragers from an internet forum.

I am currently enrolled in the Navy DEP (Delayed Entry Program) and I am scheduled to ship for basic in August, I have been enrolled nearly a year now, I intially opted for the DEP status because I wanted to finish my senior year of high school. Now nearing the end of my senior year other, more appealing, opprotunities have presented themselves.

Question is it immoral of me to get married (acquiring a wife would require waiver of responsibility voiding my current contract) in order breach a miliary contract and then immediately afterwards have the marriage anulled?

Show up at the office where you signed up in a gay rights t-shirt and your "boyfriend" in tow. Tell them you have recently come out and that you want to know if that will be a problem when you ship off for basic. I bet they tear up your contract right then and there. And you wont't even have to get married.

If it is not immoral for the navy to break a contract and kick someone out for being gay when they want to serve, then it is not immoral for you to back out of your contract.

.

Morality is an artificial concept conceived as a system by megalomaniacs to control the behaviour of others. Do not fall for this trap.

As long as the woman in question is knowing, willing and able. I'm going to say go for it. If you don't look out for yourself, no one else is going to do it for you.

Show up at the office where you signed up in a gay rights t-shirt and your "boyfriend" in tow. Tell them you have recently come out and that you want to know if that will be a problem when you ship off for basic. I bet they tear up your contract right then and there. And you wont't even have to get married.

If it is not immoral for the navy to break a contract and kick someone out for being gay when they want to serve, then it is not immoral for you to back out of your contract.

.

Don't the Navy have a 'Don't Ask Don't Tell' policy?

Besides, its very bad PR if either unbiased or conservative press found out about it.

Unbiased press will say its discriminations against homosexuals. Conservative press will say that people can evade service just by being 'immoral' - Rush L. will have a field day.

It's a lose-lose situation for the Navy to kick him out - so showing up as gay will actually have them to sign him up.

Of course, the most obvious question is: Is there really no other way to get out of the contract?

You could go to the office which deals with all that sort of stuff in full drag.

That got friend of a friend oput of military service in Denmark. Maight work for you too?

Oh, looks like someone has already suggested a slightly more extreme version of that plan.

... is it immoral of me to get married (acquiring a wife would require waiver of responsibility voiding my current contract) in order breach a miliary contract and then immediately afterwards have the marriage anulled?
Yes.

yes its immoral

and its fraud

fraud that could land both of you in prison.

talk to your parents, look over your contract, talk to a lawyer. there may well be honorable ways to get out of it.

if not, then fulfill your committment and take up other possibilities when you get out.

I need a hand in making a potentially momumental decision and lets face it, who better to give honest unbiased advice then complete stragers from an internet forum.

I am currently enrolled in the Navy DEP (Delayed Entry Program) and I am scheduled to ship for basic in August, I have been enrolled nearly a year now, I intially opted for the DEP status because I wanted to finish my senior year of high school. Now nearing the end of my senior year other, more appealing, opprotunities have presented themselves.

Question is it immoral of me to get married (acquiring a wife would require waiver of responsibility voiding my current contract) in order breach a miliary contract and then immediately afterwards have the marriage anulled?

It all depends on how valueable you feel your word is, my friend. Is your character something which you feel has worth or do you prefer your promises (including the most sacred - marriage) be disposable and meaningless vessels of convenience?

Most of this thread is ignoring an obvious fact: this person had not finished high school when the contract was signed, and thus was probably a minor. Contracts with minors are nonbinding. They can't keep him anyway.

Most of this thread is ignoring an obvious fact: this person had not finished high school when the contract was signed, and thus was probably a minor. Contracts with minors are nonbinding. They can't keep him anyway.
which is why he should talk to his parents and then to a lawyer if necessary rather than make plans to committ fraud.

Most of this thread is ignoring an obvious fact: this person had not finished high school when the contract was signed, and thus was probably a minor. Contracts with minors are nonbinding. They can't keep him anyway.

In post #7 he said he was 18 when he signed up.

But yes, he does need to have a non military lawyer look over the contract and see if there are any legal loop holes before he does anything else.

.

Don't the Navy have a 'Don't Ask Don't Tell' policy?

Yep. And the miniute he "told," he woudl be in breach of it and denied entry into the military. He wouldn't be kicked out as he isn't in yet. He just wouldn't be let in.

It's not the least bit news worthy. The US military already denies entry to openly gay men and women. And there has been an active witch hunt to root the ones who managed to slip through and discharge them for over a decade now. Happens regularly. The media and America in general wouldn't be the least bit suprised or shocked.

It's just the sad state of things over here.

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In post #7 he said he was 18 when he signed up.

But yes, he does need to have a non military lawyer look over the contract and see if there are any legal loop holes before he does anything else.

.
besides, he didnt ask about his legal status, he asked if it was moral to marry in order to get out of his obligation

its not immoral to want to get out, its not immoral to get out by any legal means at his disposal but it IS immoral to commit fraud (by getting married with the intent to get it annulled after his contract is voided) to get out.

I need a hand in making a potentially momumental decision and lets face it, who better to give honest unbiased advice then complete stragers from an internet forum.

I am currently enrolled in the Navy DEP (Delayed Entry Program) and I am scheduled to ship for basic in August, I have been enrolled nearly a year now, I intially opted for the DEP status because I wanted to finish my senior year of high school. Now nearing the end of my senior year other, more appealing, opprotunities have presented themselves.

Question is it immoral of me to get married (acquiring a wife would require waiver of responsibility voiding my current contract) in order breach a miliary contract and then immediately afterwards have the marriage anulled?

As long as the person you marry knows about the siatuation and that you intend to have the marriage annulled afterwards and is cool with that, and it isn't likely to land you in prison, why the f*ck not go for it? Screw the Navy and other warmongers!

Screw them!

If you committed any immoral act it’s that you considered joining the military at all.

Just tell them you're gay / that they look really cute in those uniforms.

Well I believe the problem has been solved, due to a lie told by my recruiter, although I was 18 when I entered the contract it was solely dependent upon my entrance POST graduation, and since I am already failling more than one of my electives due to lack of attendance I continue to not show for these classes and "fail" for the year and pay a 150 bucks to make up the credits in summer school, therefore i will not graduate but simply receive a diploma, and my contract will be void.

It's not as good of a story as getting married to skip out of a contract but it serves the purpose.

If you committed any immoral act it’s that you considered joining the military at all.

*high five*

I need a hand in making a potentially momumental decision and lets face it, who better to give honest unbiased advice then complete stragers from an internet forum.

I am currently enrolled in the Navy DEP (Delayed Entry Program) and I am scheduled to ship for basic in August, I have been enrolled nearly a year now, I intially opted for the DEP status because I wanted to finish my senior year of high school. Now nearing the end of my senior year other, more appealing, opprotunities have presented themselves.

Question is it immoral of me to get married (acquiring a wife would require waiver of responsibility voiding my current contract) in order breach a miliary contract and then immediately afterwards have the marriage anulled?

Setting the morality question aside... the brother of a friend of mine joined the Army many years ago. About halfway through basic, he decided he really didn't like it and really didn't want to be there. But he continued with training and acting like a good little soldier boy so as not to get in trouble. At the end of basic, they give you a placement test to determine where you're going to go next. This guy studied hard for the test, and then answered every single question WRONG. They looked at the results, told him to report to that barracks over there, and in two weeks he was back home.

I need a hand in making a potentially momumental decision and lets face it, who better to give honest unbiased advice then complete stragers from an internet forum.

I am currently enrolled in the Navy DEP (Delayed Entry Program) and I am scheduled to ship for basic in August, I have been enrolled nearly a year now, I intially opted for the DEP status because I wanted to finish my senior year of high school. Now nearing the end of my senior year other, more appealing, opprotunities have presented themselves.

Question is it immoral of me to get married (acquiring a wife would require waiver of responsibility voiding my current contract) in order breach a miliary contract and then immediately afterwards have the marriage anulled?

I would question your ethics and your judgement. You're trivializing your word in both contexts. How could anyone trust any promises you make? But, if you can live with yourself and the consequences of your actions, go ahead.

If you were my child, I would be ashamed.

If it were me, I would remove all the mirrors from my house because I wouldn't be able to look at myself.

Just tell them you are gay. They'll let you off right away.

I would question your ethics and your judgement. You're trivializing your word in both contexts. How could anyone trust any promises you make? But, if you can live with yourself and the consequences of your actions, go ahead.

If you were my child, I would be ashamed.

If it were me, I would remove all the mirrors from my house because I wouldn't be able to look at myself.Yeah, like you were an ethical god when you were 18. Cut him some slack--that's a major decision, to go into the military.

If you committed any immoral act it’s that you considered joining the military at all.

Åh, varför måste jag hålla med Undelia? Varför? -_-

Yeah, like you were an ethical god when you were 18. Cut him some slack--that's a major decision, to go into the military.

That would be goddess. I don't maintain any ethical superiority. I know what I was then, I know what I am now. This has nothing to do with any decision to join the military, it has to do with the fact that he does not honor commitments. He, as I said before, is trivializing his word. He makes a commitment to the military (when he was not required to) and won't keep it. He contemplates making the commitment of marriage simply to avoid another commitment then would bail on that. This speaks volumes about his character. And don't tell me that, at age 18, he's too young to understand this.

That would be goddess. I don't maintain any ethical superiority. I know what I was then, I know what I am now. This has nothing to do with any decision to join the military, it has to do with the fact that he does not honor commitments. He, as I said before, is trivializing his word. He makes a commitment to the military (when he was not required to) and won't keep it. He contemplates making the commitment of marriage simply to avoid another commitment then would bail on that. This speaks volumes about his character. And don't tell me that, at age 18, he's too young to understand this.

It's not a "commitment" of marriage at all if the other person is completely in the know that the marriage is being used as a way to get out of a previous contract. It's a "commitment" to that, nothing else.

It's not a "commitment" of marriage at all if the other person is completely in the know that the marriage is being used as a way to get out of a previous contract. It's a "commitment" to that, nothing else.

I suppose, then, that if you find that you don't want to take the consequences of your actions and decisions, any excuse will do to get out of them. Taking responsibility is adult behavior. An 18-year-old is legally an adult. If he wants to avoid responsibility, then he really can't be treated as an adult. And his whole story reeks of avoidance of responsibility - failing classes, bailing on commitments (I'll give the marriage of convenience the exception) - not adult behavior.

If he wants to avoid responsibility, then he really can't be treated as an adult.

Adults bail on responsibility all the time. I'd say avoidance of responsibility is very adult.

This is a fun thread, well maybe not fun, but an entertaining read.

I suppose, then, that if you find that you don't want to take the consequences of your actions and decisions, any excuse will do to get out of them. Taking responsibility is adult behavior. An 18-year-old is legally an adult. If he wants to avoid responsibility, then he really can't be treated as an adult. And his whole story reeks of avoidance of responsibility - failing classes, bailing on commitments (I'll give the marriage of convenience the exception) - not adult behavior.

So? I doubt he came here for you to judge him, and I doubt he gives a rat's ass. I know I wouldn't. And as Keru already mentioned, adults weasle out of things all the time.

Taking responsibility is adult behavior. An 18-year-old is legally an adult. And he's legally too stupid to be allowed to drink alcohol, by American law.

The point is that the army itself is not moral, because its goal is to kill people and to use the violence to protect a nation.
Using burocratic ways to avoid the army is surely better than being part of it.

Well I believe the problem has been solved, due to a lie told by my recruiter, although I was 18 when I entered the contract it was solely dependent upon my entrance POST graduation, and since I am already failling more than one of my electives due to lack of attendance I continue to not show for these classes and "fail" for the year and pay a 150 bucks to make up the credits in summer school, therefore i will not graduate but simply receive a diploma, and my contract will be void.

It's not as good of a story as getting married to skip out of a contract but it serves the purpose.


So then - you have decided that your word really isn't worth anything.

The point is that the army itself is not moral, because its goal is to kill people and to use the violence to protect a nation.
Using burocratic ways to avoid the army is surely better than being part of it.

Wrong. Just because a person is immoral does not give you the excuse to treat them immorally yourself. The same applies to organizations.

If you have promised to do something (and that is what a contract is) then you should do it. To deliberately avoid keeping a promise is morally wrong. The moral status of the recipient of the promise is not relevant to this.

I need a hand in making a potentially momumental decision and lets face it, who better to give honest unbiased advice then complete stragers from an internet forum.

I am currently enrolled in the Navy DEP (Delayed Entry Program) and I am scheduled to ship for basic in August, I have been enrolled nearly a year now, I intially opted for the DEP status because I wanted to finish my senior year of high school. Now nearing the end of my senior year other, more appealing, opprotunities have presented themselves.

Question is it immoral of me to get married (acquiring a wife would require waiver of responsibility voiding my current contract) in order breach a miliary contract and then immediately afterwards have the marriage anulled?
Umm. What country is this? Cause in America, I have never heard of getting married causing a military contract to be annulled.

Even if you was to marry an immigrant, legal or otherwise, your contract with the military is still binding.

Far as I know, until you take the final oath and leave for basic, they can't force you to go. You'll want to check with an expert not connected with the military to verify that, but that's what I understand--until you actually ship out, you can get out of your deal, especially if you signed before you were 18.
I'm in the military and that is quite correct. Until you take the actual oath, you are free to change you mind at any point.

Very entertaining thread. I do wonder if anyone has an opinion on the difference between moral and ethical?

Very entertaining thread. I do wonder if anyone has an opinion on the difference between moral and ethical?

Moral applies to an action/person/judgement (depending on your view of what the object of morality is): Ethical applies to a system of morals. However they both are used interchangeably now.

So? I doubt he came here for you to judge him, and I doubt he gives a rat's ass. I know I wouldn't. And as Keru already mentioned, adults weasle out of things all the time.
but he DID ask to be judged. he asked if his actions would be moral.

they would not be.

when adults weasel out of committments it also tends to be immoral but they dont ask us our opinion of their decision so its none of our business.

Not necessarily immoral but there is a question regarding its ethics.

WOAH!

You signed up to join the navy, now you are likely to get actually put on a ship you want to marry someone to get out of the contract you signed, then when you have got out of said contract with the navy, get divorced, thus also getting out of the marriage too?

I Hope my son wouldn't even contemplate such a thing when he grows up.

but he DID ask to be judged. he asked if his actions would be moral.

they would not be.

when adults weasel out of committments it also tends to be immoral but they dont ask us our opinion of their decision so its none of our business.
agreed.

I Hope my son wouldn't even contemplate such a thing when he grows up.
I know, I would hope that I raise my kids better than that too.

I Hope my son wouldn't even contemplate such a thing when he grows up.

No kiddin' ... the very idea of any of my children even contemplating joining the US military makes me shudder.

Originally Posted by Koondah
Well I believe the problem has been solved, due to a lie told by my recruiter, although I was 18 when I entered the contract it was solely dependent upon my entrance POST graduation, and since I am already failling more than one of my electives due to lack of attendance I continue to not show for these classes and "fail" for the year and pay a 150 bucks to make up the credits in summer school, therefore i will not graduate but simply receive a diploma, and my contract will be void.

It's not as good of a story as getting married to skip out of a contract but it serves the purpose.So then - you have decided that your word really isn't worth anything.
The recruiter's isn't either, apparently, and if the OP entered into a contract based on a falsehood or a misrepresentation, then he has, I believe, every moral right to get out of that contract in whatever way he deems suitable.

The recruiter's isn't either, apparently, and if the OP entered into a contract based on a falsehood or a misrepresentation, then he has, I believe, every moral right to get out of that contract in whatever way he deems suitable.

Describe where the recruiter sought to deceive, take advantage of our mislead. You cannot because it did not occur. Koondah meanwhile is not only doing so, he is foolish enough to ask if it is wrong. You are so blinded by your agenda you are readily accepting a weak statement in your attempt to ratioalize his behavior.

As far as morals or ethics go - this may not fall under that category near so much as it does fall under character. Koondah has demonstrated that he does not value his own committment or word ; his character therefore holds that value. Being of poor character is not the same as being unethical or immoral - though there is much overlap.

Just to change the subject slightly; is it immoral to buy a picture of a man shagging a dolphin?

Hypothetically speaking of course.:rolleyes:

Åh, varför måste jag hålla med Undelia? Varför? -_-
Holy fuck, my NS name means "wonder", "mainatenace" or "underneath" in Swedish.

You can walk anytime you want before you take the final oath. No obligation unless they've changed the law (which I doubt).

However it is unethical.

As to the others calling the military immoral (especially a certain one) I guess you were lying when you said you didn't judge the whole by the actions of a few.

As to the others calling the military immoral (especially a certain one) I guess you were lying when you said you didn't judge the whole by the actions of a few.
Me on the other hand, I do judge the whole by the actions of the few. If an ideology is positive, it will only inspire positive actions. Period. Barring insanity of course.

However, this is not relevant to this discussion, since the whole of the military is morally reprehensible simply for choosing a life of violence.

Me on the other hand, I do judge the whole by the actions of the few. If an ideology is positive, it will only inspire positive actions. Period. Barring insanity of course.

However, this is not relevant to this discussion, since the whole of the military is morally reprehensible simply for choosing a life of violence.

You are entitled to that opinion - just remember - they are the only think standing between you and the poeple who would revoke your freedom to express that.

You are entitled to that opinion - just remember - they are the only think standing between you and the poeple who would revoke your freedom to express that.
No, they are the enforces of those who would revoke that freedom. It’s only a matter of time before my brand of thinking and others is declared supportive of terrorism by a new Sedition Act.

You are entitled to that opinion - just remember - they are the only think standing between you and the poeple who would revoke your freedom to express that.
And in other cases they are the reason a person can't express him or herself, so your point is moot.

Me on the other hand, I do judge the whole by the actions of the few. If an ideology is positive, it will only inspire positive actions. Period. Barring insanity of course.

So you condemn all Muslims for the actions of the bombers, beheaders, fanatics?
Howabout African Americans? They commit more crimes proportionally out of their demographic size.

Those aren't "positive" actions, unless you are claiming they're all insane.


Other wise you're a hypocrite.

However, this is not relevant to this discussion, since the whole of the military is morally reprehensible simply for choosing a life of violence.

Clearly showing you know very little if anything about the military. What's it like having such a discriminatory view of the world?

No, they are the enforces of those who would revoke that freedom. It’s only a matter of time before my brand of thinking and others is declared supportive of terrorism by a new Sedition Act.

Ahh, tinfoil hat alert!!!

Describe where the recruiter sought to deceive, take advantage of our mislead. You cannot because it did not occur. Koondah meanwhile is not only doing so, he is foolish enough to ask if it is wrong. You are so blinded by your agenda you are readily accepting a weak statement in your attempt to ratioalize his behavior.

As far as morals or ethics go - this may not fall under that category near so much as it does fall under character. Koondah has demonstrated that he does not value his own committment or word ; his character therefore holds that value. Being of poor character is not the same as being unethical or immoral - though there is much overlap.

Recruiters are not perfect. In fact, they have been known to bend and twist the truth in order to get people to sign contracts. So, it is quite possible that the recruiter did lie. Whether or not he did, is something we'll never know, but it is always possible.

Koondah should've seriously thought about whether or not he truly wanted to join the Navy, before he signed that contract, but since he didn't (and I'm assuming he didn't) he ended up in the situation he is in now. On the other hand, mistakes happen. We don't have a clue what helped him make the decision he made at that point in time. Also, we don't have a clue what made him want to nullify the contract. Everybody who is sitting back and judging him without even knowing him should really think twice before saying anything else judgemental towards him. Every single one of you have made mistakes that you regret ... or will regret in the future. For crying out loud, he's a young adult. He is still learning.

I'm not saying that I agree with breaking an agreement or promises. And, I do not agree with exploiting loopholes, especially with something as sacred as marriage (though it's rarely thought of as sacred these days). I believe that one should follow through with his or her promises, but as we all know ... very few people actually follow through with everything they promise.

All this to say, treat him with respect. You'd want to be treated with respect (whether or not you'll admit it openly, or even to yourself).

And for those of you who say that it was immoral of him to even think of enlisting ... that is your own opinion. Yes, war may seem stupid, immoral, and pointless, but have you ever considered what would happen if we just sat back and let everything be? First off, world peace is a joke. It's not going to happen. To many selfish, immoral people are running countries these days. That being said, do we sit back and let people attack us whenever they feel like it, without retaliating in self defense? What would you do if somebody broke into your house and killed a family member? Would you just sit back and shrug saying "it's life" or would you want justice to be served?

It's funny. For being "grown ups", we sure do act childish. But then again ... children know how to get along better than us "adults" do. *laugh* To bad innocence is dead.

I think it's immoral and I would never do that, however, it doesn't really matter what I would do.

Legally though, all ethics and morals aside, you'd be commiting fraud which could land you in jail for a while so I'd recommend you informing your lady friend about the possible jail time.

Somewhat relevant link. (http://www.maryschneider.us/title8.php)

So you condemn all Muslims for the actions of the bombers, beheaders, fanatics?
I blame them for perpetuating a religion that causes violence, yes, just as I blame Christians for a religion that stifles freedom.
Howabout African Americans? They commit more crimes proportionally out of their demographic size.

One does not get to decide if they are African-American or not. I am referring to groups that one can voluntarily belong to.
Other wise you're a hypocrite.
No, I think you'll find that I'm remarkably consistent.
Clearly showing you know very little if anything about the military.
If you are referring to the fact that the military can’t generally enforce domestic law, you are forgetting that it is hard to fight against an unjust law when your country has a standing army and a president with the power to declare martial law.

If you are naïve enough to think that most soldiers wouldn’t enforce a law like that, you are wrong. The group has a very powerful affect on the individual and that the military erodes the individualism necessary to resist an order from an authority figure. German soldiers who did not follow the Nazi ideology did terrible things to those that the Nazis labeled as lower beings. They couldn’t refuse an order; the military had destroyed that ability. We are no different than the Germans; almost all humans are susceptible to the same techniques.
What's it like having such a discriminatory view of the world?
It's quite wonderful.

I blame them for perpetuating a religion that causes violence, yes, just as I blame Christians for a religion that stifles freedom.

One does not get to decide if they are African-American or not. I am referring to groups that one can voluntarily belong to.

No, I think you'll find that I'm remarkably consistent.

If you are referring to the fact that the military can?t generally enforce domestic law, you are forgetting that it is hard to fight against an unjust law when your country has a standing army and a president with the power to declare martial law.

If you are naïve enough to think that most soldiers wouldn?t enforce a law like that, you are wrong. The group has a very powerful affect on the individual and that the military erodes the individualism necessary to resist an order from an authority figure. German soldiers who did not follow the Nazi ideology did terrible things to those that the Nazis labeled as lower beings. They couldn?t refuse an order; the military had destroyed that ability. We are no different than the Germans; almost all humans are susceptible to the same techniques.

It's quite wonderful.

Not only are you showing yourself ignorant of the military in general, you know very little of WWII beyond the traditional grade-school level history.

Keep going, you destroy your own stance by continuing to post.

Recruiters are not perfect. In fact, they have been known to bend and twist the truth in order to get people to sign contracts. So, it is quite possible that the recruiter did lie. Whether or not he did, is something we'll never know, but it is always possible.

Koondah should've seriously thought about whether or not he truly wanted to join the Navy, before he signed that contract, but since he didn't (and I'm assuming he didn't) he ended up in the situation he is in now. On the other hand, mistakes happen. We don't have a clue what helped him make the decision he made at that point in time. Also, we don't have a clue what made him want to nullify the contract. Everybody who is sitting back and judging him without even knowing him should really think twice before saying anything else judgemental towards him. Every single one of you have made mistakes that you regret ... or will regret in the future. For crying out loud, he's a young adult. He is still learning.

I'm not saying that I agree with breaking an agreement or promises. And, I do not agree with exploiting loopholes, especially with something as sacred as marriage (though it's rarely thought of as sacred these days). I believe that one should follow through with his or her promises, but as we all know ... very few people actually follow through with everything they promise.

All this to say, treat him with respect. You'd want to be treated with respect (whether or not you'll admit it openly, or even to yourself).

And for those of you who say that it was immoral of him to even think of enlisting ... that is your own opinion. Yes, war may seem stupid, immoral, and pointless, but have you ever considered what would happen if we just sat back and let everything be? First off, world peace is a joke. It's not going to happen. To many selfish, immoral people are running countries these days. That being said, do we sit back and let people attack us whenever they feel like it, without retaliating in self defense? What would you do if somebody broke into your house and killed a family member? Would you just sit back and shrug saying "it's life" or would you want justice to be served?

It's funny. For being "grown ups", we sure do act childish. But then again ... children know how to get along better than us "adults" do. *laugh* To bad innocence is dead.

There is no disrespect in pointing out that he has reniged on his word without any cause or evidence to justify it. It clearly demonstrates that he places no value on his character. It is not disrespectful - it is factual. If I wanted to be disrespectful I would add negative adjectives describing people with little or no character. Since the vast majority of people fall into that category it really is pointless. If you doubt me - try working as a claims adjuster - within a week you will find just how cheap most people's integrity really is.

Whatever happened to "Flee to Canada"?

One does not get to decide if they are African-American or not. I am referring to groups that one can voluntarily belong to.



What about those tricked into being muslim? Or forced to be muslim? Or how about those taht are muslim but no longer want to be (did you know that the penalty for leaving islam, as prescribed in their "oh-so-peaceful" koran, is death. Link (on a PRO-islam website): http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544134)?

And no I don't hate muslims. I feel sorry for them. May God (the real one) Bless them.

There is no disrespect in pointing out that he has reniged on his word without any cause or evidence to justify it. It clearly demonstrates that he places no value on his character. It is not disrespectful - it is factual. If I wanted to be disrespectful I would add negative adjectives describing people with little or no character. Since the vast majority of people fall into that category it really is pointless. If you doubt me - try working as a claims adjuster - within a week you will find just how cheap most people's integrity really is.

How can you say things about someone, and say they are factual, without knowing the person or their reasons for doing something? Just because they don't post their reasons on a massive message forum, doesn't mean they don't have very good reasons for their decisions. You (annoyingly, I have to say) remind me of someone who knows my name at university and feels qualified to comment on me, based on some things I've written on message boards, without knowing a single thing about me besdies my name and what messages I've written.

Oh and P.S., from what I've seen on TV, the Army are quite deceptive and pushy at recruiting people. If the Navy are the same, then I'm not surprised the guy joined without knowing the consequences.

Whatever happened to "Flee to Canada"?
Canada won't take them anymore, sad to say. A few folks found that out when they ditched going to Iraq.

Far as I know, until you take the final oath and leave for basic, they can't force you to go. You'll want to check with an expert not connected with the military to verify that, but that's what I understand--until you actually ship out, you can get out of your deal, especially if you signed before you were 18.

Its true, if you don't show up they won't do anything. They will act like they will. But they won't.

Describe where the recruiter sought to deceive, take advantage of our mislead. You cannot because it did not occur. Koondah meanwhile is not only doing so, he is foolish enough to ask if it is wrong. You are so blinded by your agenda you are readily accepting a weak statement in your attempt to ratioalize his behavior.

As far as morals or ethics go - this may not fall under that category near so much as it does fall under character. Koondah has demonstrated that he does not value his own committment or word ; his character therefore holds that value. Being of poor character is not the same as being unethical or immoral - though there is much overlap.All I have to go on--and all you have to go on--is Koondah's description of the event, so let's put it on the table here: Neither of us can make any indepth judgments on what happened in this particular case. So you can jam your self-righteous "I've proved my case" bullshit right now.

Secondly, as a number of people on the thread have pointed out, recruiters have a reputation for not telling the whole story in their pitches, when they're not out and out lying, that is. There was a whole major scandal about that a year and a half ago, or don't you remember? Recruiters were under pressure to get bodies, and many stepped over the line of legality to make it happen. So it's not like Koondah's story is all that outrageous.

I need a hand in making a potentially momumental decision and lets face it, who better to give honest unbiased advice then complete stragers from an internet forum.

I am currently enrolled in the Navy DEP (Delayed Entry Program) and I am scheduled to ship for basic in August, I have been enrolled nearly a year now, I intially opted for the DEP status because I wanted to finish my senior year of high school. Now nearing the end of my senior year other, more appealing, opprotunities have presented themselves.

Question is it immoral of me to get married (acquiring a wife would require waiver of responsibility voiding my current contract) in order breach a miliary contract and then immediately afterwards have the marriage anulled?
You don't need to get married to break your DEP contract. That contract is non binding. You only get bound to the military after completion of boot camp so until then you always have the option to change your mind. They won't tell you that though.

Secondly, as a number of people on the thread have pointed out, recruiters have a reputation for not telling the whole story in their pitches, when they're not out and out lying, that is. There was a whole major scandal about that a year and a half ago, or don't you remember? Recruiters were under pressure to get bodies, and many stepped over the line of legality to make it happen. So it's not like Koondah's story is all that outrageous.


Do you have examples? Can you post a link please?

Oh come on - you giving up?

Well, it's too bad the issue is resolved. I was going to vote for "unethical, but not immoral".

Do you have examples? Can you post a link please?
Here's one (http://www.channelcincinnati.com/news/4508233/detail.html)
Here's another (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/02/earlyshow/main692361.shtml)
And another (http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1210-20.htm)
Should I keep going? (http://www.wagatv.com/iteam/gilies.html)

That was from one google search that took all of 30 seconds.

You are under no legal obligation to show up for duty. There are no consequences at all for not showing up.

http://www.objector.org/girights/delayed-enlistment-program.html#whatis

What is the Delayed Enlistment Program?

Most people who enlist are signed up into the Delayed Enlistment Program (DEP), also called the Delayed Entry Program, for up to a year before they report for active duty training.

Having second thoughts about joining the military?

The DEP is pushed hard by recruiters to high school seniors who are unsure what to do after graduation. A lot can happen in a year, and many people change their minds about what they want to do with their lives. Also, more and more people are realizing that recruiters misrepresent military life and lie to them. The promises made by recruiters about money for college and job skills are not really what the military is about, and many realize they don't want to go to war for a cause they may be opposed to, have questions about, or feel is not really their concern.

Others have talked to people who have been to Iraq, and who may have been wounded or traumatized by their participation in the war. Still others are concerned about the open-ended nature of military enlistment, and have heard of soldiers being Stop-Lossed beyond the time they were supposed to get out. In the case of Sgt. Emiliano Santiago, a federal Circuit Court in April, 2005 upheld the government's right to hold him until the year 2031, even though Santiago had already finished his eight-year commitment!

For whatever reasons, many people who have enlisted through the DEP change their minds before their ship date. They have the right to do this and do not have to go!


How does someone get out of the Delayed Enlistment Program?
Fundamentally, the way to get out of the DEP is NOT TO GO, not to report on your ship date. Some people simply do not go; others choose to write a letter stating their decision not to go. In either case, the results are the same: you do not have to go to MEPS on the ship date.

What are the consequences if I do not go to MEPS on my ship date?

There are no consequences and no records as a result of withdrawing from the DEP that currently have any effect on things like employment or your legal record. This is the case for non-citizens as well as citizens.

Withdrawing from the DEP has no effect on future employment. You don't have to write on any employment application that you have withdrawn from the DEP, and there is no question on employment forms that pertains to that issue.

Withdrawing from the DEP may affect your ability to enter the military at a later time. On the other hand, with the military desperate for ground troops, and Army recruitment numbers way down, it's hard to believe the Army wouldn't take a qualified person who at an earlier time had withdrawn from the DEP.

Will I be harassed?

The Army Recruiting regulations state that recruiters will not threaten, coerce, manipulate, or intimidate DEP members, nor may they obstruct separation requests. (USAREC Reg 601-56, 3-1c). The Navy Regulations state, threatening DEP member with possible disciplinary actions for failing to enlist or coercing DEP members to fulfill their contractual [sic] obligations is inconsistent with the concept of the all-volunteer force (COMNAVCRUITCOMIST 1130.8F, 6A-6, Note 1). The Marines don't have this clear language prohibiting harassment, but do make it clear that the individual can leave the DEP. Their Recruiting Regulations, under Desire for Release or Intent Not to Report state, If the individual insists on being released from the enlistment, the individual will be discharged . (MCO P1100.72C, 4301, 3d(2)).



Still, we hear every day of recruiters harassing people who have decided not to join the military. Recruiters often cross the line from reselling to harassing, and they have become increasingly aggressive. On the GI Rights Hotline, we have heard stories of recruiters coming to people's homes, calling their parents, going to their workplaces, and even trying to kidnap them.



The recruiter may tell you that you have to go, that you have signed a contract, and things like You'll go to jail for five years; you'll get a dishonorable discharge, you'll never get a job. Our favorite is Just go to boot camp, and if you don't like it, you can get out. None of these things is true. In particular, once you go to boot camp it is much harder to get out!



What can I do if I'm harassed by a recruiter?

What is important to realize is that you hold the cards! It may be hard to feel like you have the power over your life when you're dealing with these well-financed, slick, uniformed recruiters, but you do! What they rely on is pretend-friendliness, an air of authority, bluff, intimidation and outright lies. You can enlist the support of your family, friends, and co-workers so that you do not have to speak to the recruiter. You can write a letter stating that you want no further contact, and citing one of the regulations above that forbids them from harassing you. You can screen your calls so that you do not accept any calls from the recruiter. A letter or call from a lawyer may stop the harassment. Some people choose not to be at home around the date they had planned to ship so that they avoid potential contact.



Should I write a letter? What would be in it? Where do I send it?

If you decide to write a letter, address it to the commander of the recruiting station where you were recruited, not to the recruiter him or herself. You don't need to know the commander's name (write simply, Commander, Recruiting Station) but you need to know the address. You can look up the address of the recruiting station in the phone book (under US Government) or look on the enlistment agreement. Keep a copy of the letter. In your letter, you should give the reasons why you have changed your mind, and why you are unwilling and/or unable to enter the military. Multiple reasons are fine.

The military's list of reasons for not going includes: conscientious objection (a belief that it is wrong to take part in war); pursuit of higher education or vocational training; civilian job opportunity; erroneous enlistment or recruiting error; failure to graduate high school; family issues (marriage, children, hardship or dependency); homosexual conduct; medical or psychological disqualifications; personal problems; failure to report for active duty; and, a catch-all "other." "Other" covers a lot of ground.

Any reason is good enough: they don't get to reject your reasons, though They'd like you to think they have that right. Despite threats of involuntary activation from recruiters, the military currently releases all DEP recruits who request a separation.

What are the advantages of writing a letter?
1. If you fit into one or more of the categories in the regulations for release from the DEP, stating these in your letter can fit into the recruiter's framework for release from the military, and might result in the recruiter bothering you less.

2. By writing the letter well before the ship date, you can get off their radar screen ahead of time and avoid any drama around the time of the ship date.


3. The letter may provide a sense of closure for you. By expressing your thoughts, writing the letter and mailing it, you take concrete steps to determine your own future. This may help you assert your own power and move forward in your life.

Are there drawbacks to writing a letter?

There aren't really drawbacks, but there are situations where a letter may not be particularly helpful.

1. It can be confusing if you think the recruiters and military have a right to deny your request for separation. They don't have that right.

2. If it's close to your ship date, the letter won't do you much good. In this case, you might do well not to be home on your ship date, to avoid a difficult situation.


What happens after the letter is sent?

The recruiter will try to re-sell you on the military. Typically, she or he will tell you that you have to come down to meet the commander and discuss the issue. YOU DON'T. Once you have sent your separation request letter, there is no need for further contact with the recruiting station. (An exception - if you have gotten money from the military through College First, you may have contact with the recruiting station concerning repayment. If you do go to meet the recruiters for such a reason, it's best to take someone with you who will back you up).

If you waver, or are indecisive, they are going to really work on you to pressure you to join. If you are clear and consistent in your desire to have nothing more to do with the military, they will probably soon decide they are wasting their time, and will find other people to pressure. This process works out best if it happens in advance of the ship date.

What if my request is denied, or if I don't receive a response to my letter?

The recruiter may tell you that your request has been denied or that you have to come to a meeting about your request. Current military policy requires that your request for separation be honored. In general, you do not have to attend any meeting or even talk to the recruiter for any reason.

When your request has been processed, the military issues a void enlistment or uncharacterized separation that will not affect your record or career. We have heard from some people that they did not receive any response to their letter. That's OK. Even if you have not heard from the military in response to your letter, you have no obligation to them.

While the military theoretically could send a DEP member to active-duty for not reporting to basic training or boot camp, Not a single person has been involuntarily ordered to active duty, court-martialed, or otherwise prosecuted in civilian courts for being in the DEP and refusing to ship out to boot camp in *AT LEAST* the past 27 years. Not one single person. (Rod Powers, usmilitary.about.com)

Feel free to contact the GI Rights Hotline (800-394-9544, girights@objector.org) if you have any questions or if you need assistance with harassment by a recruiter.

Wow....good to know. ^-^

You know, hindsight really isn't that bad of a trait to have. For example, let's take a suicide pact. It's not a binding contract of course, but as B0zzy has been stressing, a person's word is important. But in such a situation most of us can agree that if the suicide pact went through, it would be a tragedy. I'd much rather have a person go back on their word than to kill themself.

Not to imply that enlisting is equal to a suicide pact, but in both cases we have a very major life decision, in the case of enlisting into the military, Koondah would be spending a rather large amount of his time that he could be using to go to college, have and advance in a job, or do whatever he wants to do now with his life. So now that he's realized later that he's made a mistake, he should be encouraged to learn from that. Making and learning from mistakes is just part of life.

So yes, going back on your word rather than not giving your word in the first place is never a preferrable thing to do, but hopefully Koondah will remember it and will consider decision more carefully before commiting to them.

I suppose, then, that if you find that you don't want to take the consequences of your actions and decisions, any excuse will do to get out of them. Taking responsibility is adult behavior. An 18-year-old is legally an adult. If he wants to avoid responsibility, then he really can't be treated as an adult. And his whole story reeks of avoidance of responsibility - failing classes, bailing on commitments (I'll give the marriage of convenience the exception) - not adult behavior.
You question the guys commitment then suggests that he fills it, but you do that by trying to shame him into it. Well, shame on you.

What sense is there sending a guy into a battle zone if his heart isn't into it. What if you had a son enlisted and he ends up losing his life because this guy couldn't commit himself to doing the right thing. Would you think you did the right thing by trying to shame this guy into fulfilling his commitment?

By him not joining, he might be making the most responsible decision of his whole life.

Here's one (http://www.channelcincinnati.com/news/4508233/detail.html)
Here's another (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/02/earlyshow/main692361.shtml)
And another (http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1210-20.htm)
Should I keep going? (http://www.wagatv.com/iteam/gilies.html)

That was from one google search that took all of 30 seconds.
Good job Nazz. Where did Bozzy go? :D

Question is it immoral of me to get married (acquiring a wife would require waiver of responsibility voiding my current contract) in order breach a miliary contract and then immediately afterwards have the marriage anulled?
There is no such thing as morality in contract law, or indeed in any other area of law. Value judgments are not relevent. For example, in determining whether a contract is valid, the Court will consider whether the consideration given for promises is sufficient (which is almost always, so long as it is not illegal and so long as it is not illusory), but not whether it is at all adequate.

Use whatever means you legally can to get out of the contract that you no longer want to be legally bound by.

Good job Nazz. Where did Bozzy go? :D
In all fairness, it took me a couple of days to realize he'd challenged my statement, so it's only right I give him the same amount of time to look at my reply. ;)

I need a hand in making a potentially momumental decision and lets face it, who better to give honest unbiased advice then complete stragers from an internet forum.

I am currently enrolled in the Navy DEP (Delayed Entry Program) and I am scheduled to ship for basic in August, I have been enrolled nearly a year now, I intially opted for the DEP status because I wanted to finish my senior year of high school. Now nearing the end of my senior year other, more appealing, opprotunities have presented themselves.

Question is it immoral of me to get married (acquiring a wife would require waiver of responsibility voiding my current contract) in order breach a miliary contract and then immediately afterwards have the marriage anulled?

if you find a girl willing to do that for you then go for it. i wanted to be in the RAF when i was your age. luckily for me i failed the aptitude tests (and the interview and the medical).

You dont have to get married, you can just tell them you are not going. I did that with the US Army two weeks before basic. The recruiters will try to scare you into going, the actual people at MEPS will tell you to burn in hell (which means they wont force you to go.)

The military is strapped for people, but they still dont want to spend all that money training you for you to go AWOL or blow your brains out. The navy is even less strapped for people, they are trying to send their own people who come up for re-enlistment to the army. Just dont let the recruiters scare you, its their job to make sure you go to basic, because once you are there, you ARE stuck.

You know, hindsight really isn't that bad of a trait to have. For example, let's take a suicide pact. It's not a binding contract of course, but as B0zzy has been stressing, a person's word is important. But in such a situation most of us can agree that if the suicide pact went through, it would be a tragedy. I'd much rather have a person go back on their word than to kill themself.

Not to imply that enlisting is equal to a suicide pact, but in both cases we have a very major life decision, in the case of enlisting into the military, Koondah would be spending a rather large amount of his time that he could be using to go to college, have and advance in a job, or do whatever he wants to do now with his life. So now that he's realized later that he's made a mistake, he should be encouraged to learn from that. Making and learning from mistakes is just part of life.

So yes, going back on your word rather than not giving your word in the first place is never a preferrable thing to do, but hopefully Koondah will remember it and will consider decision more carefully before commiting to them.


I see - so it is OK to go back on your word, just as long as it was only a very important decision.

Seems to me many folks here are lacking a strong male role model. Shameful.

Question is it immoral of me to get married (acquiring a wife would require waiver of responsibility voiding my current contract) in order breach a miliary contract and then immediately afterwards have the marriage anulled?

If by immoral you mean making a sham out of two separate sacred duties then yes, I’d have to say that it’s immoral.

Just go Naval Reserve and pursue your civvie job at the same time. That will give you more flexibility and save you from completely embarrassing yourself with a sham marriage. I’m pretty certain that Naval Reservists are getting less call up than their overworked Army brethren, but you should look into it.

Isn't there something else you could do to avoid it? Develop a mental disease? Break a leg? Become a conscientious objector? Get a sex-change? Seems to me like just saying "No, I've changed my mind" would be enough.

....Seems to me like just saying "No, I've changed my mind" would be enough.

Legally, it is enough. I think he just wants an excuse to marry that girl.

Isn't there something else you could do to avoid it? Develop a mental disease? Break a leg? Become a conscientious objector? Get a sex-change? Seems to me like just saying "No, I've changed my mind" would be enough.

It is. If he doesn't turn up he does have to go. End of story.

I see - so it is OK to go back on your word, just as long as it was only a very important decision.

Seems to me many folks here are lacking a strong male role model. Shameful.

So, a strong female role model would...result in a bunch of indecisive wussies?

At any rate, how about shutting your damn mouth. Would you really want this kid to be killed in a war because he made a bad decision before he knew about all his options? Seems to ME that people who enlist with their whole heart deserve whatever they get, good or bad, from being in the military. Bullying a high schooler into staying in the military while a war is going on is the shameful thing going on here.

Legally, it is enough. I think he just wants an excuse to marry that girl.

Cute!

So B0zzy--you asked for proof, then taunted me when I didn't answer immediately, I provide the proof, refrain from taunting you when someone else notes that you hadn't replied, and then you come back into the thread and don't reply to the proof I provided. What gives? It's okay to admit that you didn't know about the scandal involving military recruiters--it was only all over the news last summer when the Army couldn't meet its recruiting goals.

So B0zzy--you asked for proof, then taunted me when I didn't answer immediately, I provide the proof, refrain from taunting you when someone else notes that you hadn't replied, and then you come back into the thread and don't reply to the proof I provided. What gives? It's okay to admit that you didn't know about the scandal involving military recruiters--it was only all over the news last summer when the Army couldn't meet its recruiting goals.

Sorry Nazz - I had written a decent reply - then my fucking PC crashed. Goddamit! I've also had a few beerski's. I'll re-do it another day. Besides -are you the only one around here allowed to leave a thread for a few days?

I'm gonna go watch TV now. (belch)

Getting out of the delayed entry program. (http://www.objector.org/girights/delayed-enlistment-program.html#how)


"There are no consequences and no records as a result of withdrawing from the DEP that currently have any effect on things like employment or your legal record. This is the case for non-citizens as well as citizens.

Withdrawing from the DEP has no effect on future employment. You don't have to write on any employment application that you have withdrawn from the DEP, and there is no question on employment forms that pertains to that issue. "

I need a hand in making a potentially momumental decision and lets face it, who better to give honest unbiased advice then complete stragers from an internet forum.

I am currently enrolled in the Navy DEP (Delayed Entry Program) and I am scheduled to ship for basic in August, I have been enrolled nearly a year now, I intially opted for the DEP status because I wanted to finish my senior year of high school. Now nearing the end of my senior year other, more appealing, opprotunities have presented themselves.

Question is it immoral of me to get married (acquiring a wife would require waiver of responsibility voiding my current contract) in order breach a miliary contract and then immediately afterwards have the marriage anulled?
Are you marrying just to get out of the Contract? if so, then Yes, it would be Immoral.

Otherwise, it's really up to you and what you can live with.

So, a strong female role model would...result in a bunch of indecisive wussies?

At any rate, how about shutting your damn mouth. Would you really want this kid to be killed in a war because he made a bad decision before he knew about all his options? Seems to ME that people who enlist with their whole heart deserve whatever they get, good or bad, from being in the military. Bullying a high schooler into staying in the military while a war is going on is the shameful thing going on here.

You obviously have some issues to work out. Good luck.

I need a hand in making a potentially momumental decision and lets face it, who better to give honest unbiased advice then complete stragers from an internet forum.

I am currently enrolled in the Navy DEP (Delayed Entry Program) and I am scheduled to ship for basic in August, I have been enrolled nearly a year now, I intially opted for the DEP status because I wanted to finish my senior year of high school. Now nearing the end of my senior year other, more appealing, opprotunities have presented themselves.

Question is it immoral of me to get married (acquiring a wife would require waiver of responsibility voiding my current contract) in order breach a miliary contract and then immediately afterwards have the marriage anulled?
Why the hell would you want to get tied down at this age?

Here's one (http://www.channelcincinnati.com/news/4508233/detail.html)
Here's another (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/02/earlyshow/main692361.shtml)
And another (http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1210-20.htm)
Should I keep going? (http://www.wagatv.com/iteam/gilies.html)

That was from one google search that took all of 30 seconds.

One of those are from sources so biased as to completely nullify any chance of credibility. Of the remaining three one depends entirely on second-hand information from people who also seem to have an agenda - or at least dubious credentials or lack of impartiality. One did offer this sage advice;

"Read all the paper work your recruiter gives you very carefully. Make sure you understand everything you are signing.
Know your rights. You are making a commitment to join, a commitment that the military takes seriously. You should take it seriously also..."

It goes on about the right to change your mind. That is true. In The USA you have the right to be a complete asshole - so long as you don't break any laws. Just because there's no law against it does not mean it is a good thing to be an asshole. Same goes for questions of character - like this. There is no law saying you have to have good character - that does not mean it is good to have none.

The hidden camera one from Cincinati however is da bomb. There are certainly no laws against having poor character - but there are laws against deceptive business (including recruiting) practices. As you notice - there are charges pending against the recruiters. (or at least were for the example from 1999)

I'm glad you posted that info. It goes to show that no important decision should be made without thoughtful consideration - be it joining the military or the peace corps. There is a considerable time commitment and obligation. Anyone who would make such a decision without investigating the facts in depth gets little sympathy from me if they get burned. Anyone who would renig on a decision on which they gave considerable investigation and introspection also gets little quarters from me.

The problem is not that the OP was misled - it is obviously not the case. The problem is that they either frivilously made a commitment or frivilously broke one. Neither is something someone of good character would do.

As far as anyone who has been misled be a recruiter - there is plenty of free information avaliable everywhere - libraries - guidance counselors - veterans, internet , etc. Any reasonable inquiry will expose a falsehood. Then I would encourage them to take it to the CO of the recruiter and demand to be informed of the results. No organization is free from the lower elements of society - none. Always conduct yourself and make your decisions with that knowledge... and don't give in to the temptation to lower yourself to the same standards. (or lack thereof) It will mean sometimes doing the difficult or even painful. That is what makes character.

I'd do it.


Actually, I never would've signed up for the Navy / Army / Airforce to being with, so meah.
Try the legal approach first though.

First off, morality is relative.
No, it's not.

You would do well to familiarize yourself with the writings of the eminent 20th-century Russian-American philosopher Ayn Rand.

Morality is an artificial concept

No, it's not.

You would do well to familiarize yourself with the writings of the eminent 20th-century Russian-American philosopher Ayn Rand.

the whole of the military is morally reprehensible simply for choosing a life of violence.

There is nothing inherently immoral violence in the abstract. You are committing the grave logical fallacy of context-dropping.