NationStates Jolt Archive

So if you're getting heart surgery make sure no one prayes for you, at least not that you know about.

NEW YORK (AP) -- In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.

Researchers emphasized their work does not address whether God exists or answers prayers made on another's behalf. The study can only look for an effect from prayers offered as part of the research, they said.

They also said they had no explanation for the higher complication rate in patients who knew they were being prayed for, in comparison to patients who only knew it was possible prayers were being said for them.

The work, which followed about 1,800 patients at six medical centers, was financed by the Templeton Foundation, which supports research into science and religion. It will appear in the American Heart Journal.



Story: http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/03/30/prayer.study.ap/index.html

At last. Proof that religion is bad for you. And should be outlawed!

Huh, that's interesting, because every study like this I can remember having read about actually came to the conclusion that people who were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of getting better faster (the important point being, of course, that they believed in God themselves and *knew* someone was praying for them; lest I be accused of making evangelizing statements ;)).

That's explainable, really.

The heart chakra is a very active area. When people pray for someone's heart to get better, they send energy there. Same goes for those that know people are praying for them. However, heart problems tend to get worse when energy goes there, simply because most heart problems are caused by excess energy, not lack of it. Also, when you pray hard about something, like a disease, you empower it a bit by concentrating on the fact that it's there. Result, it'll make it a tad worse. The best thing to do - while hoping for someone to get better - is to wish THEM well, but not think about the disease itself. AKA, "I hope and pray John Doe will get better", as opposed to "I hope the disease will go away".

Same goes for not using pendants with high-energy stones on them right by the heart, or while pregnant.

may be they arent praying hard enough?

That's explainable, really.

The heart chakra is a very active area. When people pray for someone's heart to get better, they send energy there. Same goes for those that know people are praying for them. However, heart problems tend to get worse when energy goes there, simply because most heart problems are caused by excess energy, not lack of it. Also, when you pray hard about something, like a disease, you empower it a bit by concentrating on the fact that it's there. Result, it'll make it a tad worse. The best thing to do - while hoping for someone to get better - is to wish THEM well, but not think about the disease itself. AKA, "I hope and pray John Doe will get better", as opposed to "I hope the disease will go away".

Same goes for not using pendants with high-energy stones on them right by the heart, or while pregnant.

Congratulations!

You made that up all by yourself.

That's explainable, really.

The heart chakra is a very active area. When people pray for someone's heart to get better, they send energy there. Same goes for those that know people are praying for them. However, heart problems tend to get worse when energy goes there, simply because most heart problems are caused by excess energy, not lack of it. Also, when you pray hard about something, like a disease, you empower it a bit by concentrating on the fact that it's there. Result, it'll make it a tad worse. The best thing to do - while hoping for someone to get better - is to wish THEM well, but not think about the disease itself. AKA, "I hope and pray John Doe will get better", as opposed to "I hope the disease will go away".

Same goes for not using pendants with high-energy stones on them right by the heart, or while pregnant.
I thought most heart problems were caused by bad diet, no exercise, smoking, drinking, infection, birth defect or a combination of all of these. :confused:

Maybe praying brought Gods attention to the ailing person being helped medically and then God was all like... "Hey I gave this person heart disease for a reason yo" and took action

I thought most heart problems were caused by bad diet, no exercise, smoking, drinking, infection, birth defect or a combination of all of these. :confused:

I was not claiming that energy factors by themselves caused diseases, I was saying they are aggravating factors.

Congratulations!

You made that up all by yourself.

Look up on chakras, energy and several other concepts I used (thought-forms).

They're praying to the wrong god. If the prayed to the Flying Spaghetti Monster to help them he would extend his Noodly Appendage and repair their heart. And leave a noodly taste in their mouth.

They're praying to the wrong god. If the prayed to the Flying Spaghetti Monster to help them he would extend his Noodly Appendage and repair their heart. And leave a noodly taste in their mouth.

You know, a chaotician might actually try that. :p

It's interesting to see though, that prayer is scientifically proven to cause changes in the health of another person though.

I wonder if those who are willing to accept prayer as being detrimental to a persons health are also willing to accept it as possibly being beneficial.

It's interesting to see though, that prayer is scientifically proven to cause changes in the health of another person though.

I wonder if those who are willing to accept prayer as being detrimental to a persons health are also willing to accept it as possibly being beneficial.

As I said, applied the right way it can be beneficial, yes.

We should do a study on the effectiveness of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

As I said, applied the right way it can be beneficial, yes.


No I can tell that you do think that prayer has power. My question was directed more towards those who would mock people who pray but will possibly use this study as "proof" that it is a bad thing.

We should do a study on the effectiveness of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

We should. And while we're at it lets see what affect praying to Chuck Norris and the Invisible Pink Unicorn has. Lets stick in Allah too while we're at it.

Since everyone is a terrible sinner, praying must get God's attention and He'd then bring his wrath down on the evil patient. ;)

It's interesting to see though, that prayer is scientifically proven to cause changes in the health of another person though.

I wonder if those who are willing to accept prayer as being detrimental to a persons health are also willing to accept it as possibly being beneficial.
Actually this study just proved that it has no effect on a person at all.

LMAO. Someone got WAY too much money for their research proposal grant and thought 'so how can I spend this money quickly and make it look as though I achieved something in the two years I'm about to waste'...

No I can tell that you do think that prayer has power. My question was directed more towards those who would mock people who pray but will possibly use this study as "proof" that it is a bad thing.
It doesn't prove that it is a "bad" thing. It proves that it is a "no" thing.

Actually this study just proved that it has no effect on a person at all.

Wouldn't "Prayer shown to hurt heart patients" show that it does have an affect?

We should. And while we're at it lets see what affect praying to Chuck Norris and the Invisible Pink Unicorn has. Lets stick in Allah too while we're at it.


Oh, and Geebus

oh I should skim less.

It shows that patients who KNEW they were getting prayed for had more complications.

Perhaps it's because those patients are very religious and they are the types who think whatever happens is because God makes it that way and take no personal responsibility for their own health, therefor setting themselves up for more complications. *shrug*

This study shows nothing about prayers effects on anything, it's more a study on the biological effects as a result of a psychological element.

Oh, and Geebus

That a Simpsons reference?

"Save me Geebus!" :p

Wouldn't "Prayer shown to hurt heart patients" show that it does have an affect?
I was being an ass. The reason people who know they are being prayed for probably have mor complicatiosn because of their state of mind or maybe there's a difference in lifestyle. I doubt its because some supernatural force actually hurts their hearts.

oh I should skim less.

It shows that patients who KNEW they were getting prayed for had more complications.

Perhaps it's because those patients are very religious and they are the types who think whatever happens is because God makes it that way and take no personal responsibility for their own health, therefor setting themselves up for more complications. *shrug*

This study shows nothing about prayers effects on anything, it's more a study on the biological effects as a result of a psychological element.
Yes it does show something about prayers effects on something. It says prayer has no effect at all.

Yes it does show something about prayers effects on something. It says prayer has no effect at all.

No it doesn't and you pretty much pointed that you yourself a couple of posts ago, as did I. Psychology and lifestyle.

This study is seriously flawed if they were actually trying to show the results of prayer.

You would not let the patients know they were being prayed for and record data about those that are praying.

Who they are praying for, how they are praying for them and what not.

I was being an ass. The reason people who know they are being prayed for probably have mor complicatiosn because of their state of mind or maybe there's a difference in lifestyle. I doubt its because some supernatural force actually hurts their hearts.



oh I should skim less.

It shows that patients who KNEW they were getting prayed for had more complications.

Perhaps it's because those patients are very religious and they are the types who think whatever happens is because God makes it that way and take no personal responsibility for their own health, therefor setting themselves up for more complications. *shrug*

This study shows nothing about prayers effects on anything, it's more a study on the biological effects as a result of a psychological element.
Yes it does show something about prayers effects on something. It says prayer has no effect at all.

Ramen to Sumamba Buwhan.

Living up to your namesake there, PsicoDan?

Ramen? Are you trying to compete with the Pastafarians?

No it doesn't and you pretty much pointed that you yourself a couple of posts ago, as did I. Psychology and lifestyle.

This study is seriously flawed if they were actually trying to show the results of prayer.

You would not let the patients know they were being prayed for and record data about those that are praying.

Who they are praying for, how they are praying for them and what not.
I think you need to actually read the post again. It shows that people praying for you when you have heart surgery has no effect on you at all unless you know about it in whcih case it tends to have a negative effect. My post above points out that this negative effect is probably not because of some external supernatural force, but because of some internal psychological one.

I think you need to actually read the post again. It shows that people praying for you when you have heart surgery has no effect on you at all unless you know about it in whcih case it tends to have a negative effect. My post above points out that this negative effect is probably not because of some external supernatural force, but because of some internal psychological one.

The study proves no such thing. Do you really believe that it does or are you still "just being an ass"?

I believe you are drawing the conclusion you want to by selectively choosing some data while ignoring others. Even though the OP gives little to no information about how the study was done.

Did you read this: "in comparison to patients who only knew it was possible prayers were being said for them"? Meaning, either they knew someone was praying for them or they didn't. Those that knew seemed to have more complications. Those that didn't only said it was a possibility. They didn't study the prayers only the prayees.

http://www.bottomlinesecrets.com/blpnet/article.html?article_id=30204 <- I guess that proves that prayer does give positive results then eh? I mean they did a study!

The study proves no such thing. Do you really believe that it does or are you still "just being an ass"?

I believe you are drawing the conclusion you want to by selectively choosing some data while ignoring others. Even though the OP gives little to no information about how the study was done.

Did you read this: "in comparison to patients who only knew it was possible prayers were being said for them"? Meaning, either they knew someone was praying for them or they didn't. Those that knew seemed to have more complications. Those that didn't only said it was a possibility. They didn't study the prayers only the prayees.

http://www.bottomlinesecrets.com/blpnet/article.html?article_id=30204 <- I guess that proves that prayer does give positive results then eh? I mean they did a study!
Ummm.. I'll repost the lead block.

NEW YORK (AP) -- In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.

I think that what that means is that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. At least that's what I get out of the sentence, "the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery." I may be reading it worng, though.

I could have told you this.

like I said - they merely tested physical effect due to psychological constructs. They have no idea how the people praying conducted their prayers or even if they actually prayed.

I think the plan I layed out for studying the effects of prayer would have a greater chance of getting data that proves or disproves the benefits (or detriments) of prayer, that asking a patient if someone is praying for them or not.

Besides, just because it is the largest study of its kind, doenst mean it wasn't flawed.


This is from my link:
Is there any scientific evidence to support the use of prayer in the prevention or treatment of disease? Researchers have conducted approximately 200 scientific studies on prayer and health. About two-thirds of these studies have shown positive results in patients with chest pain, heart attack and AIDS.

So if you're getting heart surgery make sure no one prayes for you, at least not that you know about.

NEW YORK (AP) -- In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.

Researchers emphasized their work does not address whether God exists or answers prayers made on another's behalf. The study can only look for an effect from prayers offered as part of the research, they said.

They also said they had no explanation for the higher complication rate in patients who knew they were being prayed for, in comparison to patients who only knew it was possible prayers were being said for them.

The work, which followed about 1,800 patients at six medical centers, was financed by the Templeton Foundation, which supports research into science and religion. It will appear in the American Heart Journal.



Story: http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/03/30/prayer.study.ap/index.html

I'm not sure where your getting this from but the Mantra study into prayer found no effect

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4681771.stm

Also, I think the Newspaper you have has it wrong since in the same study they also used touch rexlaxation techniques. That was shown to cause a slight increase in patients having the treatment fail

This is the sort of thing that happens when people forget to sacrifice a goat with each prayer.

like I said - they merely tested physical effect due to psychological constructs. They have no idea how the people praying conducted their prayers or even if they actually prayed.

I think the plan I layed out for studying the effects of prayer would have a greater chance of getting data that proves or disproves the benefits (or detriments) of prayer, that asking a patient if someone is praying for them or not.

Besides, just because it is the largest study of its kind, doenst mean it wasn't flawed.


This is from my link:
Those studies show that YOU as a patient may have better chances if YOU are spiritual and pray. The study I posted followed 1800 patients and had people from different Christian groups pray for them. Some without their knowledge, some with. The ones who had no idea anyone was prying for them showed no effect, implying that praying for someone doesn't work. The reason it may work for you when you pray for yourself are probably psychological and have nothing to do with any divine intervention. This is probably the same reason that those who did know people were prying for them had more complications, not because of the prayer but for some psychological reason in the patient.

This is the sort of thing that happens when people forget to sacrifice a goat with each prayer.
That's exactly what I'm trying to say. People think that if they pray it helps, but you're better off sacrificing the goat and not praying than the other way around. God doesn't care to hear you babble, he wants that goat meat and then you can just shut up as far as he cares.

God hates fat people?

God hates fat people?
Only if they don't sacrifice goats.

Those studies show that YOU as a patient may have better chances if YOU are spiritual and pray. The study I posted followed 1800 patients and had people from different Christian groups pray for them. Some without their knowledge, some with. The ones who had no idea anyone was prying for them showed no effect, implying that praying for someone doesn't work. The reason it may work for you when you pray for yourself are probably psychological and have nothing to do with any divine intervention. This is probably the same reason that those who did know people were prying for them had more complications, not because of the prayer but for some psychological reason in the patient.

Nope:

How was the research conducted? One of the most impressive studies is being conducted by researchers at Duke University Medical Center. The research, which will soon be published in the American Journal of Cardiology, shows how prayer affects heart patients.

When patients with severe chest pain were admitted for emergency treatment, they were given the option of participating in the study.

Of those who joined the study, half were randomly assigned to a group that was prayed for, while the other half was not prayed for.

Neither the patients nor their doctors knew who was being prayed for. Both groups received identical medical treatment.

The names of those in the prayed-for group were sent to prayer gatherings around the world, in every major religious tradition -- Buddhists in Tibet, Jews in Jerusalem, Hindus in India, Catholics and Protestants in the US and so on.

Those in the prayed-for group had half as many or, in some cases, no side effects or complications from invasive medical treatments, such as cardiac catheterization and angioplasty.

This study will surely make headlines -- and rightly so. It illustrates with exacting scientific methodology that prayer has a positive effect on recovery from serious illness.

Nope:
Well then these studies are fundamentally at odds with each other. I'll side with the one I posted. It's the largest ever and I don't beleive in God or anything. :)

So if you're getting heart surgery make sure no one prayes for you, at least not that you know about.

NEW YORK (AP) -- In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.

Researchers emphasized their work does not address whether God exists or answers prayers made on another's behalf. The study can only look for an effect from prayers offered as part of the research, they said.

They also said they had no explanation for the higher complication rate in patients who knew they were being prayed for, in comparison to patients who only knew it was possible prayers were being said for them.

The work, which followed about 1,800 patients at six medical centers, was financed by the Templeton Foundation, which supports research into science and religion. It will appear in the American Heart Journal.



Story: http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/03/30/prayer.study.ap/index.html
Actually this could be powerful evidence that prayer works very powerfully.

It does not say that they were praying for them to get better....

Actually this could be powerful evidence that prayer works very powerfully.

It does not say that they were praying for them to get better....
Okay, but the negative effect was pretty slight.
The study looked for any complications within 30 days of the surgery. Results showed no effect of prayer on complication-free recovery. But 59 percent of the patients who knew they were being prayed for developed a complication, versus 52 percent of those who were told it was just a possibility.

Well then these studies are fundamentally at odds with each other. I'll side with the one I posted. It's the largest ever and I don't beleive in God or anything. :)


works for me :D

Actually this could be powerful evidence that prayer works very powerfully.

It does not say that they were praying for them to get better....

HAH! Perhaps they were hoping for the life insurance payout or knew what they were getting in the will.

It is interesting though what Heikiokun was saying earlier. It reminded me of something I read about shamanism. I guess some shamans practice prayer for healing but only if the ailing person gives the go ahead. They believe that if you pray for someone without their permission, then you could very well cause them more problems. I forget why exactly. SOmethign about prayer sending energy to the person but if they dont know how to use it or what its for the disease could use the energy to grow or somethign wierd like that.

OH there was something else I wanted to share....

There is this Japanese researcher named Masaru Emoto that was looking at the effects of human consciousness on water and got very interesting results: http://www.life-enthusiast.com/twilight/research_emoto.htm - even if you don't agree with teh conclusions they came to, it's still pretty amazing.

OH there was something else I wanted to share....

There is this Japanese researcher named Masaru Emoto that was looking at the effects of human consciousness on water and got very interesting results: http://www.life-enthusiast.com/twilight/research_emoto.htm - even if you don't agree with teh conclusions they came to, it's still pretty amazing.
That is the most absurd pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo website I've visited in a long time. The "molecular structure" of water is always the same. It's not affected in any way by "human vibrations". Then after bullshiting about the molecular structure of water he goes on to show crystal structures of snowflakes and stuff. While the shape of an ice crystal is linked to the structure of a water molecule, it's also determined by alot of other factors, like impurities, temperature it formed at, speed it froze at and other things. This guy's a wacko who's probably just trying to sell his new age bullshit book.

So if you're getting heart surgery make sure no one prayes for you, at least not that you know about.

NEW YORK (AP) -- In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.

Researchers emphasized their work does not address whether God exists or answers prayers made on another's behalf. The study can only look for an effect from prayers offered as part of the research, they said.

They also said they had no explanation for the higher complication rate in patients who knew they were being prayed for, in comparison to patients who only knew it was possible prayers were being said for them.

The work, which followed about 1,800 patients at six medical centers, was financed by the Templeton Foundation, which supports research into science and religion. It will appear in the American Heart Journal.



Story: http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/03/30/prayer.study.ap/index.html
so, you just don't tell the person you're praying for them.

maybe they are having too many people pray for them and god is getting pissed about hearing over and over agian that billy is going for heart surgery. so he makes it worthwhile

i would be pissed if people kept telling me over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again about something going on in their life, even worse about something in one of their friends life

That is the most absurd pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo website I've visited in a long time. The "molecular structure" of water is always the same. It's not affected in any way by "human vibrations". Then after bullshiting about the molecular structure of water he goes on to show crystal structures of snowflakes and stuff. While the shape of an ice crystal is linked to the structure of a water molecule, it's also determined by alot of other factors, like impurities, temperature it formed at, speed it froze at and other things. This guy's a wacko who's probably just trying to sell his new age bullshit book.


Well I wasn't there or part for the experiments so you may be right, but this is actually a pretty well known thing that I have seen mentioned a few times from different sources.

But I don't think you read how the study was done. He doesnt look at the structure of snowflakes - lol - He freezes droplets of water before and after certain stimuli... like what the frozen crystals look like before being exposed to certain types of music (or prayer or a negative thought) and then what they look like afterwards and shit like that.

It would be really interesting to be there when the demonstration was done though.

Well I wasn't there or part for the experiments so you may be right, but this is actually a pretty well known thing that I have seen mentioned a few times from different sources.

But I don't think you read how the study was done. He doesnt look at the structure of snowflakes - lol - He freezes droplets of water before and after certain stimuli... like what the frozen crystals look like before being exposed to certain types of music (or prayer or a negative thought) and then what they look like afterwards and shit like that.

It would be really interesting to be there when the demonstration was done though.
Many of the pictures were of snowflakes though.

So if you're getting heart surgery make sure no one prayes for you, at least not that you know about.

NEW YORK (AP) -- In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.

Researchers emphasized their work does not address whether God exists or answers prayers made on another's behalf. The study can only look for an effect from prayers offered as part of the research, they said.

They also said they had no explanation for the higher complication rate in patients who knew they were being prayed for, in comparison to patients who only knew it was possible prayers were being said for them.

The work, which followed about 1,800 patients at six medical centers, was financed by the Templeton Foundation, which supports research into science and religion. It will appear in the American Heart Journal.



Story: http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/03/30/prayer.study.ap/index.html

Oh, bullshit. There might have been a marginal difference, but I doubt highly it was a statistically significant one. I'd want to see their methods, their math, etc. etc. before I even attached any credence to the results, much less bothered thinking about their implications.

*Reads thread, then prays for enemys*

Many of the pictures were of snowflakes though.

lol, as I said, those weren't pictures of snowflakes:
He freezes droplets of water and then examines them under a dark field microscope that has photographic capabilities.

Oh, bullshit. There might have been a marginal difference, but I doubt highly it was a statistically significant one. I'd want to see their methods, their math, etc. etc. before I even attached any credence to the results, much less bothered thinking about their implications.
I was just poking fun at the Christians when I titled it. The actually stats are that if you did not know that anyone was prying for you then prayer had no effect. 52% of those that had people praying for them but did not know it had complications. The same for people who did not have people praying for them. People who did have people praying for them and knew it developed complications 59% of the time. I'm sure this is because of some psychological factor and not because the prayer actually hurt them. In anycase, the links right there and its a pretty short read.

*Reads thread, then prays for enemys*

Okay, regardless of occultism belief/skill or not, the thread has a winner... :)

It's interesting to see though, that prayer is scientifically proven to cause changes in the health of another person though.

I wonder if those who are willing to accept prayer as being detrimental to a persons health are also willing to accept it as possibly being beneficial.


No causal relationship has been established, it just corrolated with complications in this study.

may be they arent praying hard enough?
Perhaps it takes more of the nature of personal painful sacrifice and not just words into the aether ...
or, as the article connotates, the god being prayed to is actually an evil prick who likes to keep the suffering going. But i have my doubts ;)

We should do a study on the effectiveness of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
RAmen to that!

We should. And while we're at it lets see what affect praying to Chuck Norris and the Invisible Pink Unicorn has. Lets stick in Allah too while we're at it.
Apparently, NS is oppressing religious expression in the form of Chuck Norris worship, or .... that deity has given up on its voluminously-praising peculiarities that frequent this forum :(

CNN? Thats reliable :rolleyes:

CNN? Thats reliable :rolleyes:
Yes, dismissing an article out of hand because of your opinion of the network is genius! It is a report by the Associated Press and the study will appear in a reputable medical journal, but ignore that, it was on CNN and thus is "leftist" bullshit obviously.

The article is front page New York Times also. Very interesting findings. If you don't know me don't pray for me!

The article is front page New York Times also. Very interesting findings. If you don't know me don't pray for me!
Hows the comp doing for ya man? (I have not seen you around latly)

Gotta love that machine. Been busy lately. Trips and stuff.