NationStates Jolt Archive

Has anyone else recently seen V for Vendetta? If so then I think you understand what I'm saying when I say that the mask-clad hero of the film exhibited much more than your traditional anarchist vendetta towards his government.

Also can anyone tell me the graphic novel this is based on? I'd love to read it

I believe there is a thread for this already: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=475272

Didn't know. Sorry.

If so then I think you understand what I'm saying when I say that the mask-clad hero of the film exhibited much more than your traditional anarchist vendetta towards his government.

how so?

Don't worry. I just saw the movie myself. One of the most amazing movies I've laid eyes on in quite a long time. Incredible action, but at the same time, great drama, and one of the best messages in film. Especially in that last 5-1/2 years.

Didn't know. Sorry.
Well, that thread's already taking a turn towards attacking "libruhls" and that kind of brain-dead mentality, so this thread still has capacity to be different.

Well, that thread's already taking a turn towards attacking "libruhls" and that kind of brain-dead mentality, so this thread still has capacity to be different.
you and your optomism. I give it 3 pages. max.

you and your optomism. I give it 3 pages. max.You know, someone on some other Bush thread was posting their contentedment with Myotisinia and i's 'jack into something about Blue Oyster Cult .... ;)

Also can anyone tell me the graphic novel this is based on? I'd love to read it

Strangely enough, it's called 'V for Vendetta'.

I can't comment further - the film was only released in Australia today.

btw,

http://www.aforanarchy.com/

Don't worry. I just saw the movie myself. One of the most amazing movies I've laid eyes on in quite a long time. Incredible action, but at the same time, great drama, and one of the best messages in film. Especially in that last 5-1/2 years.

Indeed

Strangely enough, it's called 'V for Vendetta'.

I can't comment further - the film was only released in Australia today.

Thanks, I didn't ecpect it to be near that obvious.

Has anyone else recently seen V for Vendetta? If so then I think you understand what I'm saying when I say that the mask-clad hero of the film exhibited much more than your traditional anarchist vendetta towards his government.

Also can anyone tell me the graphic novel this is based on? I'd love to read it
The graphic novel has the same name.

Even though this is minor, just in case...the vendetta wasn't against the government, it was against the people who ran the camp that did the experiments on him, who happened to become key members of the government. The anarchy part was more or less a red herring, but V also believed in that as well, knowing (and this is clearer in the book) that the world had no place for him as well as the people he was getting his vengence on. He didn't see himself as the solution but more as the catalyst. But why he took the whole thing personally (and chose the targets he did) was because those people personally fucked him up...

V didn't have any particular passion. The only real difference between him and your average anarchist (removing, of course, angsty teenagers from the equation) is that he was omniscient, omnipotent, had a bottomless well of money located in his back pocket.
The plot holes, oh the plot holes! The sheer, gaping maws; huge caverns of logicless void.
*falls to the ground, shuddering*

You know, someone on some other Bush thread was posting their contentedment with Myotisinia and i's 'jack into something about Blue Oyster Cult .... ;)
haha...are you implying that you and I might jack this thread or something at some point?

Has anyone else recently seen V for Vendetta? If so then I think you understand what I'm saying when I say that the mask-clad hero of the film exhibited much more than your traditional anarchist vendetta towards his government.

Also can anyone tell me the graphic novel this is based on? I'd love to read it
V wasn't on a vendetta against the government. He was on a vendetta against those who destroyed, or, more accuratly, created him. The government that created this scenario and those people were somewhat incidential to it all, but his goal was to see that nothing like him would ever happen again.

*falls to the ground, shuddering*
Ah, finally a bane for Fiddlebottoms! Lo!
....and yet STILL, he's a regular contributor to the forums here .... :confused:

V wasn't on a vendetta against the government. He was on a vendetta against those who destroyed, or, more accuratly, created him. The government that created this scenario and those people were somewhat incidential to it all, but his goal was to see that nothing like him would ever happen again.

I see. I hadn't thought of it as a preventive measure

haha...are you implying that you and I might jack this thread or something at some point?
Hmmm. I should ponder that a while .... ;)

Ah, finally a bane for Fiddlebottoms! Lo!
....and yet STILL, he's a regular contributor to the forums here .... :confused:
Ah, you see, I'm not paying to be exposed to the illogic that populates the Internets (I pay my internet bill for the access to bittorrent, anything else is just gravy. Delicious, insane gravy). I paid $10 for a ticket to V, and so the gaps in the plot resonate at a similar frequency to the gap in my wallet, and it is that vibration that causes me pain.

Ah, you see, I'm not paying to be exposed to the illogic that populates the Internets (I pay my internet bill for the access to bittorrent, anything else is just gravy. Delicious, insane gravy). I paid $10 for a ticket to V, and so the gaps in the plot resonate at a similar frequency to the gap in my wallet, and it is that vibration that causes me pain.
Oh, money that would've been better spent on various forms of porn, you say? Like panda porn?

Ah, you see, I'm not paying to be exposed to the illogic that populates the Internets (I pay my internet bill for the access to bittorrent, anything else is just gravy. Delicious, insane gravy). I paid $10 for a ticket to V, and so the gaps in the plot resonate at a similar frequency to the gap in my wallet, and it is that vibration that causes me pain.

10 bucks? Where do you live?

V didn't have any particular passion. The only real difference between him and your average anarchist (removing, of course, angsty teenagers from the equation) is that he was omniscient, omnipotent, had a bottomless well of money located in his back pocket.
The plot holes, oh the plot holes! The sheer, gaping maws; huge caverns of logicless void.
*falls to the ground, shuddering*
were those truely plot holes? I mean, he made it quite clear that he stole a huge amount, so that wouldn't be an issue. And I wouldn't say omniscient since he does almost get caught. I'd argue overly lucky and very intelligent in strategy and knowing his enemy.

10 bucks? Where do you live?
New York. Yeah, I'm sure there are cheap theatres and shit, but I fucking like going to the places around Times Square. You get to watch tourists, eat sketchy food at an all night ethnic food place, and then get drunk and pass out in the subway terminal.

were those truely plot holes? I mean, he made it quite clear that he stole a huge amount, so that wouldn't be an issue. And I wouldn't say omniscient since he does almost get caught. I'd argue overly lucky and very intelligent in strategy and knowing his enemy.
*takes note: Fiddlebottoms gains pain from vibration .... start thinking M-theory at him*

New York. Yeah, I'm sure there are cheap theatres and shit, but I fucking like going to the places around Times Square. You get to watch tourists, eat sketchy food at an all night ethnic food place, and then get drunk and pass out in the subway terminal.
Could even result in a marginally successful lovelife. *nods*

V wasn't on a vendetta against the government. He was on a vendetta against those who destroyed, or, more accuratly, created him. The government that created this scenario and those people were somewhat incidential to it all, but his goal was to see that nothing like him would ever happen again.
It's impossible to be ona Vendetta against two different things at once. -_-

He was a freedom fighter. He was targeting the people who did that to him, but also the government who was responsible for it. :rolleyes:

*takes note: Fiddlebottoms gains pain from vibration .... start thinking M-theory at him*
*cue Good Vibrations*

were those truely plot holes? I mean, he made it quite clear that he stole a huge amount, so that wouldn't be an issue. And I wouldn't say omniscient since he does almost get caught. I'd argue overly lucky and very intelligent in strategy and knowing his enemy.
I'd say omniscience because, while these two members of the Ultra-Fascist government (organizations which tend to pride themselves on keeping people under watch) are unable to find a handful of scientists names, one anarchist with no access to government files, no financing, and no political rank can somehow track them all down with relative ease. Beyond that, how does V learn all the stuff (explosives making, fireworks making, engineering, subway train construction, knife fighting, cooking, disguise, poison work, etc) he knows with no apparent teacher or assistant? How does he even know who is doing the investigating in the first place? How did he know where Natalie Portman's character would hide?
More importantly, theft isn't as easy as you seem to believe. Stealing little things is difficult and time consuming (1st hand experience, dontcha know), but stealing statues, suits of armour and Juteboxes? Not without serious inside help, which he lacked.

*cue Good Vibrations*
Damn, now i've got Sunkist on the brain ...

It's impossible to be ona Vendetta against two different things at once. -_-

He was a freedom fighter. He was targeting the people who did that to him, but also the government who was responsible for it. :rolleyes:
why is it impossible to be on more than one vendetta? Also, I don't consider it two things. It is all directly linked into one thing, represented by he group that created him

why is it impossible to be on more than one vendetta? Also, I don't consider it two things. It is all directly linked into one thing, represented by he group that created him
Exactly. Honestly though, I don't look at it as much as a Pro Anarchy film as it is a warning against Fascism. I could go on and on about how I liked it, but since I'm supposedly a conservative, I guess I'm supposed to hate it right? Hehe, seriously though, I would go as far as to say the total package of this film is above any film that I've seen in the past 5 - 10 years.

I'd say omniscience because, while these two members of the Ultra-Fascist government (organizations which tend to pride themselves on keeping people under watch) are unable to find a handful of scientists names, one anarchist with no access to government files, no financing, and no political rank can somehow track them all down with relative ease. Beyond that, how does V learn all the stuff (explosives making, fireworks making, engineering, subway train construction, knife fighting, cooking, disguise, poison work, etc) he knows with no apparent teacher or assistant? How does he even know who is doing the investigating in the first place? How did he know where Natalie Portman's character would hide?
More importantly, theft isn't as easy as you seem to believe. Stealing little things is difficult and time consuming (1st hand experience, dontcha know), but stealing statues, suits of armour and Juteboxes? Not without serious inside help, which he lacked.
The point is not that he's omniscient, but that he's a symbol rather than just a man. That is why they don't necessarily need to make things feasable. Think outside the box.

Exactly. Honestly though, I don't look at it as much as a Pro Anarchy film as it is a warning against Fascism. I could go on and on about how I liked it, but since I'm supposedly a conservative, I guess I'm supposed to hate it right? Hehe, seriously though, I would go as far as to say the total package of this film is above any film that I've seen in the past 5 - 10 years.
I would agree that it wasn't a pro-anarchy film. The event of prescribing the Fawkes masks was about a great number but a singular identity, which in itself is a politically binding function - anarchy wouldn't even have that. The idea of parliament being the ultimatum was also pretty telling.

I'd say omniscience because, while these two members of the Ultra-Fascist government (organizations which tend to pride themselves on keeping people under watch) are unable to find a handful of scientists names, one anarchist with no access to government files, no financing, and no political rank can somehow track them all down with relative ease. Beyond that, how does V learn all the stuff (explosives making, fireworks making, engineering, subway train construction, knife fighting, cooking, disguise, poison work, etc) he knows with no apparent teacher or assistant? How does he even know who is doing the investigating in the first place? How did he know where Natalie Portman's character would hide?
More importantly, theft isn't as easy as you seem to believe. Stealing little things is difficult and time consuming (1st hand experience, dontcha know), but stealing statues, suits of armour and Juteboxes? Not without serious inside help, which he lacked.
I see your point, but I assumed that when he rose out of the fire, he already had started his plotting, and therefore kept track of the people he would destroy. It was really only what...5 people? I would also assume that the information he needed could be found in the massive stacks of books in his room.
And no, I don't think theft is easy (also first hand experiance). And I'm not sure how to reconcile this, but give me time and a few drugs, and I'm sure I can create something.;)

I would agree that it wasn't a pro-anarchy film. The event of prescribing the Fawkes masks was about a great number but a singular identity, which in itself is a politically binding function - anarchy wouldn't even have that. The idea of parliament being the ultimatum was also pretty telling.
Also, the masks symbolize V's existance as the symbol of all people, of all different lifestyles and backgrounds. Which is why at the end, they removed the masks and showed everybody who died doing the same.

Brilliant if you ask me. 1812 Overture was a nice touch too.

My bad note about the flick is as follows:

The commercials betray it severely :(
Rock music (in the commercial)? Gimme a f*cking break. 1812 Overture was *perfect*.

I would agree that it wasn't a pro-anarchy film. The event of prescribing the Fawkes masks was about a great number but a singular identity, which in itself is a politically binding function - anarchy wouldn't even have that. The idea of parliament being the ultimatum was also pretty telling.
While not proanarchy perse, there are clear references to it. Also, iirc, they clipped alot of scenes that pushed the movie into the anarchy spectrum. I don't think it can be labled anarchist or not because it never defines if he seeks a new political system, or seeks an anarchist system.

My bad note about the flick is as follows:

The commercials betray it severely :(
Rock music (in the commercial)? Gimme a f*cking break. 1812 Overture was *perfect*.
Too true. The commercials couldn't possibly do the film justice though, no matter how hard they tried. ;)

Also, the masks symbolize V's existance as the symbol of all people, of all different lifestyles and backgrounds. Which is why at the end, they removed the masks and showed everybody who died doing the same.

Brilliant if you ask me. 1812 Overture was a nice touch too.
Hey, hi-five! Catch the timing on the posts? WooT!

Hey, hi-five! Catch the timing on the posts? WooT!
Yeah, I noticed.

My bad note about the flick is as follows:

The commercials betray it severely :(
Rock music (in the commercial)? Gimme a f*cking break. 1812 Overture was *perfect*.
haha...yes, I believe me and you covered this, but tieing in the French and Russians, Napoleon, and the 4th of july was brilliant.

While not proanarchy perse, there are clear references to it. Also, iirc, they clipped alot of scenes that pushed the movie into the anarchy spectrum. I don't think it can be labled anarchist or not because it never defines if he seeks a new political system, or seeks an anarchist system.
Ah - good point ... i could see that angle. I would suggest the idea of the connected and active populace being the swing of the representational govt, although the *movie* leaves that open.

While not proanarchy perse, there are clear references to it. Also, iirc, they clipped alot of scenes that pushed the movie into the anarchy spectrum. I don't think it can be labled anarchist or not because it never defines if he seeks a new political system, or seeks an anarchist system.
I actually like it better that way. The whole point was when he mentioned before he died that the new world would be shaped by new people.

haha...yes, I believe me and you covered this, but tieing in the French and Russians, Napoleon, and the 4th of july was brilliant.
Yep!
Hey - what's all this about not 'jacking the thread? :confused:

Watching it a second time also helped out quite a bit, clearing up a lot of issues that I didn't understand. :D See it again.

I actually like it better that way. The whole point was when he mentioned before he died that the new world would be shaped by new people.I think it was actually vital that they didn't push one form or the other. any government can be corrupt, and if they are, should be risen against. that was the ultimate message. Advocating one or the other would undercut that premise.

Yep!
Hey - what's all this about not 'jacking the thread? :confused:
haha...sorry, my roommate whom is refered to as "fuckbag" fell out of bed because he's shitfaced and is now whimpering "Oh sarah" (his girlfriend who has been gone a whole day). I've been laughing about it too much to properly jack.

Also, iirc, they clipped alot of scenes that pushed the movie into the anarchy spectrum.

yeah, at the very least they should have left the breakup with justice in there.

"frankly, i wasn't surprised when i found out. you always did have an eye for a man in uniform..."

you and your optomism. I give it 3 pages. max.

4 pages.... W00H!

I think it was actually vital that they didn't push one form or the other. any government can be corrupt, and if they are, should be risen against. that was the ultimate message. Advocating one or the other would undercut that premise.
Wonderfully put. Man I love this movie.

I'd say omniscience because, while these two members of the Ultra-Fascist government (organizations which tend to pride themselves on keeping people under watch) are unable to find a handful of scientists names

governments are inefficient - and fascist governments much more so, due to the paranoia, secrecy, and unidirectional flow charts of power

one anarchist with no access to government files

evidence?

haha...sorry, my roommate whom is refered to as "fuckbag" fell out of bed because he's shitfaced and is now whimpering "Oh sarah" (his girlfriend who has been gone a whole day). I've been laughing about it too much to properly jack.
Ah, i guess it's passable, then ... ;)
Oh, btw ...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10665954&postcount=50

I also think part of V's motivation was in a bit revenge for the lesbian in the other cell (forget her name) She loved him, and I think he fell in love with her which is why he was so happy with Evie and told her he thought he couldn't fall in love like that again. Maybe not, I may be totally wrong. <_<

Anyway, he was doing it for her, so people like her could be free. At least in part. Not necessarily just out of an attempt at anarchy.

Watching it a second time also helped out quite a bit, clearing up a lot of issues that I didn't understand. :D See it again.
Pay more money for it? Nay. However, I could just download a bootleg and watch that again to see if it makes more sense. That would be the Anarchist thing to do, wouldn't it?
*sticks it to the man*
Mhuahahaha!

Pay more money for it? Nay. However, I could just download a bootleg and watch that again to see if it makes more sense. That would be the Anarchist thing to do, wouldn't it?
*sticks it to the man*
Mhuahahaha!
I don't break perfectly legitimate laws. Especially when the filmmaker deserves every penny for such an awesome film.

Pay more money for it? Nay. However, I could just download a bootleg and watch that again to see if it makes more sense. That would be the Anarchist thing to do, wouldn't it?
*sticks it to the man*
Mhuahahaha!
You'd still be following Galliam Returned's advice, indulging him ... making you at least a follower. Not too anarchic, IMHO ;)

Ah, i guess it's passable, then ... ;)
Oh, btw ...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10665954&postcount=50
4 pages without it becoming about the libruls or us jacking it. Color me impressed.

You'd still be following Galliam Returned's advice, indulging him ... making you at least a follower. Not too anarchic, IMHO ;)
Muahahah!

4 pages without it becoming about the libruls or us jacking it. Color me impressed.
Should i blame the coherent conversation?

Watching it a second time also helped out quite a bit, clearing up a lot of issues that I didn't understand. :D See it again.

Amen. Watched it again last night.

Muahahah!
What, no hi-five? Seems i'm up two. ;)

What, no hi-five? Seems i'm up two. ;)
*high fives* Stick it to the hand!

Should i blame the coherent conversation?
Well, we are always coherant. Just never on the right topic. so I blame the OP for choosing a decent topic (odd that we've aready discussed it, but a good topic none the less)

ITS ALL HIS FAULT! *pouts*

any government can be corrupt, and if they are, should be risen against. that was the ultimate message.

bah.


Good evening, London. I thought it time we had a little talk. Are you sitting comfortably?

Then I'll begin. . . .

I suppose you're wondering why I've called you here this evening. Well, you see, I'm not entirely satisfied with your performance lately . . . I'm afraid your work's been slipping and . . . and, well, I'm afraid we've been thinking about letting you go.

Oh, I know, I know. You've been with the company a long time now. Almost . . . let me see. Almost ten thousand years! My word, doesn't time fly. It seems like only yesterday. . . .

I remember the day you commenced you employment, swinging down from the tree, fresh-faced and nervous. A bone clasped in your bristling fist. "Where do I start, sir?" You asked plaintively. I remember my exact words: "There's a pile of dinosaur eggs over there, youngster," I said, smiling all the while. "get sucking."

Well, we've certainly come a long way since then, haven't we? And yes, yes, you're right. In all that time you haven't missed a day. Well done, thou good and faithful servant. Also, please don't think I've forgotten about your outstanding service record, or about all the invaluable contributions that you1ve made to the company. Fire, the wheel, agriculture . . . it's an impressive list, old-timer. A jolly impressive list.

But . . . well, to be frank, we've had our problems too. There's no getting away from it. Do you know what I think a lot of it stems from? I'll tell you . . . it's your basic unwillingness to get on with the company. You don't seem to want to face up to any real responsibility, or to be your own boss. Lord knows you've been offered plenty of opportunities. We've offered you promotion time and time again, and each time you've turned us down. "I couldn't handle the work, guv'nor," you wheedled. "I know my place."

...

Really, it's not good enough, is it?

And it's no good blaming the drop in work standards upon bad management, either; though to be sure the management is very bad. In fact, let us not mince words . . . the management is terrible! We've had a string of embezzlers, frauds, liars and lunatics making a string of catastrophic decisions. This is a plain fact.

But who elected them? It was you! You who appointed these people. You who gave them the power to make your decisions for you. While I'll admit that anyone can make a mistake once, to go on making the same lethal errors century after century seems to me nothing short of deliberate.

You have encouraged these malicious incompetents, who have made your working life a shambles. You have accepted without question their senseless orders. You have allowed them to fill your workspace with dangerous and unproven machines. You could have stopped them. All you had to say was "No."

governments are inefficient - and fascist governments much more so, due to the paranoia, secrecy, and unidirectional flow charts of power
Governments are filled with beaurocrats, and beaurocrats keep good paperwork: it is their sole purpose in this world and they do it merrily.
evidence?
Common sense?
"Hey, Ted, this guy here in a Guy Fawkes mask wants to see the top secret files on that top secret installation, should we let him?"
"Does he have an ID?"
"No."
"Well of course we'll let him have all the information and files! Be especially sure to show him all the documents that investigators working for the state can't get, and I'll go find a few of those files that we 'lost' a couple years ago."
"Brilliant plan! I'll be sure to tell him everything we know about the people in that project after it was over, including address and name changes."
"While your at it, give him the info on those guys we hired to do the coverp-up. He might want to interview them or something."

bah.
I fail to see what you "bah" at. Unless you're a sheep. In which case, as you were. oh the irony

*high fives* Stick it to the hand!
*gets in his two with a patty-cake*

Governments are filled with beaurocrats, and beaurocrats keep good paperwork: it is their sole purpose in this world and they do it merrily.

Common sense?
"Hey, Ted, this guy here in a Guy Fawkes mask wants to see the top secret files on that top secret installation, should we let him?"
"Does he have an ID?"
"No."
"Well of course we'll let him have all the information and files! Be especially sure to show him all the documents that investigators working for the state can't get, and I'll go find a few of those files that we 'lost' a couple years ago."
"Brilliant plan! I'll be sure to tell him everything we know about the people in that project after it was over, including address and name changes."
"While your at it, give him the info on those guys we hired to do the coverp-up. He might want to interview them or something."
NOW you're veering into Bush appointee mentality. Ugh.

Governments are filled with beaurocrats, and beaurocrats keep good paperwork: it is their sole purpose in this world and they do it merrily.

and when the paperwork is systematically destoyed and access to any remaining hints of it is blocked by powers that outrank you?

Common sense?
"Hey, Ted, this guy here in a Guy Fawkes mask wants to see the top secret files on that top secret installation, should we let him?"
"Does he have an ID?"
"No."
"Well of course we'll let him have all the information and files! Be especially sure to show him all the documents that investigators working for the state can't get, and I'll go find a few of those files that we 'lost' a couple years ago."
"Brilliant plan! I'll be sure to tell him everything we know about the people in that project after it was over, including address and name changes."
"While your at it, give him the info on those guys we hired to do the coverp-up. He might want to interview them or something."

i was talking about within the story. the movie didn't state outright where he was getting his info (that i recall), but it was at least implied that he had gained access to their system. and the graphic novel tells you point blank that he has more than mere access to it.

Governments are filled with beaurocrats, and beaurocrats keep good paperwork: it is their sole purpose in this world and they do it merrily.

Common sense?
"Hey, Ted, this guy here in a Guy Fawkes mask wants to see the top secret files on that top secret installation, should we let him?"
"Does he have an ID?"
"No."
"Well of course we'll let him have all the information and files! Be especially sure to show him all the documents that investigators working for the state can't get, and I'll go find a few of those files that we 'lost' a couple years ago."
"Brilliant plan! I'll be sure to tell him everything we know about the people in that project after it was over, including address and name changes."
"While your at it, give him the info on those guys we hired to do the coverp-up. He might want to interview them or something."
So its impossible to get government records without ID? He's a clever guy, he could probably pull it off. Besides, he didn't have access to records government members COULDN'T get, he had access to records nobody had BOTHERED to get. The stuff that was missing was all stuff he knew from personal experience anyway.

NOW you're veering into Bush appointee mentality. Ugh.
don't worry. We've already begun the hijack.

I fail to see what you "bah" at.

it is in no way about the possibility of corruption. not even the movie held that, and the movie watered it down too far anyways.

You'd still be following Galliam Returned's advice, indulging him ... making you at least a follower. Not too anarchic, IMHO ;)
Damn, folied again! Alright then, Plan C: I download the movie, and then I don't watch it again. Not only do I stick it to the Man, but I stick it to Gilliam and my actions are utterly pointless and devoid of logic. Perfect Anarchy, if I do say so myself.

it is in no way about the possibility of corruption. not even the movie held that, and the movie watered it down too far anyways.
well, we are, in fact, discussing the movie, not the book. And while it is directly about an accute sense of corruption, it also lends itself to the concept of any government becoming corrupt and the rise against it.

Damn, folied again! Alright then, Plan C: I download the movie, and then I don't watch it again. Not only do I stick it to the Man, but I stick it to Gilliam and my actions are utterly pointless and devoid of logic. Perfect Anarchy, if I do say so myself.
You're trying to hard, and you spelled my name wrong. Go sit in the corner.

Damn, folied again! Alright then, Plan C: I download the movie, and then I don't watch it again. Not only do I stick it to the Man, but I stick it to Gilliam and my actions are utterly pointless and devoid of logic. Perfect Anarchy, if I do say so myself.
Thats just what they want you to do
*puts on tin foil hat*

well, we are, in fact, discussing the movie, not the book. And while it is directly about an accute sense of corruption, it also lends itself to the concept of any government becoming corrupt and the rise against it.

i don't think you and i mean the same thing by the word 'corruption'

i don't think you and i mean the same thing by the word 'corruption'I'd actually say that on one level, we do mean the same thing. I'm just also using it on a secondary level at the same time.

I'd say omniscience because, while these two members of the Ultra-Fascist government (organizations which tend to pride themselves on keeping people under watch) are unable to find a handful of scientists names, one anarchist with no access to government files, no financing, and no political rank can somehow track them all down with relative ease. Beyond that, how does V learn all the stuff (explosives making, fireworks making, engineering, subway train construction, knife fighting, cooking, disguise, poison work, etc) he knows with no apparent teacher or assistant? How does he even know who is doing the investigating in the first place? How did he know where Natalie Portman's character would hide?
More importantly, theft isn't as easy as you seem to believe. Stealing little things is difficult and time consuming (1st hand experience, dontcha know), but stealing statues, suits of armour and Juteboxes? Not without serious inside help, which he lacked.

The problem here is that the American movie goer apparently need to have everything spelled out for him. There is no silver platter for this movie. V himself explains that he had bee putting his pieces in place for years. Finch, the police inspector even acknowledges that the guy had been operating for many years. Who says he had no funding? He himself explaind how he had been raiding the vaults of "contraband material", who says he wasn't selling large quantities of it on some form of black market? They also give no shred of detail on his background, he could have been a martial arts expert, or could have learned how to fight in the years he spent after the detention center was destroyed.

All this leads to another thing that you seem to have ignored. Notice how he never allowed his mask to be removed through the entire movie. And, add Portman's line at the end. V is an alagory for every person. Every person who doesn't feel free, every person who lives in fear of their government, every person who is tired of being told that they shouldn't know what their leaders are up to, and are angry because of it.

Damn, folied again! Alright then, Plan C: I download the movie, and then I don't watch it again. Not only do I stick it to the Man, but I stick it to Gilliam and my actions are utterly pointless and devoid of logic. Perfect Anarchy, if I do say so myself.
NOW you're sounding reasonable ... except for the parts i bolded, where you make a logical outline of behaviour. *nods*

All this leads to another thing that you seem to have ignored. Notice how he never allowed his mask to be removed through the entire movie. And, add Portman's line at the end. V is an alagory for every person. Every person who doesn't feel free, every person who lives in fear of their government, every person who is tired of being told that they shouldn't know what their leaders are up to, and are angry because of it.
An allegory, yes. But even allegories need to have coherant plots. not that I agree that V is incoherant. Just sayin.

I'd actually say that on one level, we do mean the same thing. I'm just also using it on a secondary level at the same time.

i'd say that corruption was the least of your worries with the state in v's world. shit, the corruption would probbly be one of the upsides to it.

i'd say that corruption was the least of your worries with the state in v's world. shit, the corruption would probbly be one of the upsides to it.
that is on the literal level where I say we agree. The secondary level I pull in corruption is essentially calling in everything they do. The media control, fingers, censorship, testing etc.

that is on the literal level where I say we agree. The secondary level I pull in corruption is essentially calling in everything they do. The media control, fingers, censorship, testing etc.

that isn't corruption, that's the state running as advertised.

that isn't corruption, that's the state running as advertised.
just because that is what they say they are doing doesn't make it not corrupt.

The problem here is that the American movie goer apparently need to have everything spelled out for him. There is no silver platter for this movie. V himself explains that he had bee putting his pieces in place for years. Finch, the police inspector even acknowledges that the guy had been operating for many years. Who says he had no funding? He himself explaind how he had been raiding the vaults of "contraband material", who says he wasn't selling large quantities of it on some form of black market? They also give no shred of detail on his background, he could have been a martial arts expert, or could have learned how to fight in the years he spent after the detention center was destroyed.

All this leads to another thing that you seem to have ignored. Notice how he never allowed his mask to be removed through the entire movie. And, add Portman's line at the end. V is an alagory for every person. Every person who doesn't feel free, every person who lives in fear of their government, every person who is tired of being told that they shouldn't know what their leaders are up to, and are angry because of it.
Hey man, don't start baggin' on me because Fiddlebottoms wants to be lead by the hand ("American moviegoer").

And both of you missed something that was spoon fed, that he was 'created,' the experiments on him where for enhancement and the whole crash of that program was brought on becuase he advanced farther then they expected. This was something that they actually did more on in the movie than in the book, with that whole slo-mo knife fight (which I thought was gratuitious). So yes, he had 'super abilities,' but they took pains to explain that.

Hey man, don't start baggin' on me because Fiddlebottoms wants to be lead by the hand ("American moviegoer").

And both of you missed something that was spoon fed, that he was 'created,' the experiments on him where for enhancement and the whole crash of that program was brought on becuase he advanced farther then they expected. This was something that they actually did more on in the movie than in the book, with that whole slo-mo knife fight (which I thought was gratuitious). So yes, he had 'super abilities,' but they took pains to explain that.
thank you. that is the one scene I could have done without. It felt like they were just trying to say "We're the guys who did the matrix!"

and I've been curious what your take on this movie was.

thank you. that is the one scene I could have done without. It felt like they were just trying to say "We're the guys who did the matrix!"

and I've been curious what your take on this movie was.
I did a lengthy review-lite in the first V thread when the movie came out. That's a better assessment because it was a few days after I saw it so it was still fresh but I had a few days to sort it. Now it's not as fresh.

The big points I remember is that some of the choices struck me as 'screenwritting 101' and didn't need to be painted that thick, and the V's relationship with the detective hunting him was minimized which reduced some of the complexity of his character (in the book he delivers the "Ideas are bullet proof" to the detective, which I think it is more important to deliver that line to someone you don't kill three seconds later.) There where asthetic choices that I didn't like (by inverting when he blows up Parliment I missed out on his fantastic and delightfully mad 'break-up' with Justice.) I missed the characterization of the Chancelor. I should qualify all of this by saying I had been thinking about how I'd do it for over ten years, so I'm probably a more finiky about the choices than I should be. (Don't make the mistake of thinking that I don't know that things change in translation-in my first post on the subject someone said that even though I started the post saying that the Sin City technique doesn't work for everything, I know things change my criticism is the choices they made in that change). Overall I liked it, but I had a few issues, I end up bitching more when a movie gets just shy of really good then when a movie just sucks out loud. For the latter nit-picking seems pointless.

I did a lengthy review-lite in the first V thread when the movie came out. That's a better assessment because it was a few days after I saw it so it was still fresh but I had a few days to sort it. Now it's not as fresh.

The big points I remember is that some of the choices struck me as 'screenwritting 101' and didn't need to be painted that thick, and the V's relationship with the detective hunting him was minimized which reduced some of the complexity of his character (in the book he delivers the "Ideas are bullet proof" to the detective, which I think it is more important to deliver that line to someone you don't kill three seconds later.) There where asthetic choices that I didn't like (by inverting when he blows up Parliment I missed out on his fantastic and delightfully mad 'break-up' with Justice.) I missed the characterization of the Chancelor. I should qualify all of this by saying I had been thinking about how I'd do it for over ten years, so I'm probably a more finiky about the choices than I should be. (Don't make the mistake of thinking that I don't know that things change in translation-in my first post on the subject someone said that even though I started the post saying that the Sin City technique doesn't work for everything, I know things change my criticism is the choices they made in that change). Overall I liked it, but I had a few issues, I end up bitching more when a movie gets just shy of really good then when a movie just sucks out loud. For the latter nit-picking seems pointless.I'll have to look for that write up. I was sad to see the breakup missing from this, and I think it still could have been put in instead of conducting (that said, I think the conducting gave brilliant light into his mind). I also think, from a conversion from literary to filmatic concepts, the ultimate climax of a movie should be that last moment...something that leaves the sound ringing in your ears, and the image burned onto your retina. A literary work should have it around what would be act 3 if put into a shakespearian model.
I agree with the "ideas are bullet proof" thing. that did bother me a little.
I think that they did an amazing job taking a Thatcher era story and making it work in a post-9/11 world so effectively. I saw it functioning on dozens of different timeframes at the same time, which is difficult to do.
I would have liked to see what you would have done with it. By the way, you want a book to turn into a movie? Read Europe Central by William Vollmann. Despite few people knowing his name right now, he will be one of the authors that is looked back upon like Faulkner, Poe, and the other great writers are.

I'll have to look for that write up. I was sad to see the breakup missing from this, and I think it still could have been put in instead of conducting (that said, I think the conducting gave brilliant light into his mind). I also think, from a conversion from literary to filmatic concepts, the ultimate climax of a movie should be that last moment...something that leaves the sound ringing in your ears, and the image burned onto your retina. A literary work should have it around what would be act 3 if put into a shakespearian model.
I agree with the "ideas are bullet proof" thing. that did bother me a little.
I think that they did an amazing job taking a Thatcher era story and making it work in a post-9/11 world so effectively. I saw it functioning on dozens of different timeframes at the same time, which is difficult to do.
I would have liked to see what you would have done with it. By the way, you want a book to turn into a movie? Read Europe Central by William Vollmann. Despite few people knowing his name right now, he will be one of the authors that is looked back upon like Faulkner, Poe, and the other great writers are.
My collaborator is more into the translations than I am, though I think he would say the same about me. I have a visual immagination and he has a text based one-at least that's the way he describes it. Anyway, he's the literary filter, being a lit prof. But really, if I had the clout to start adapting texts into movies I wouldn't have as much time to dick around here. I'm just a lowly crew worker and he's still a lit prof. Though we are inches away from our first published play (since it's the shortest one of the bunch, we're likely to only get copies of a magazine...ah well...)

I'll check that out, though. There's a chance my collaborator has already read it. (the guy absorbs books)

Read Europe Central by William Vollmann. Despite few people knowing his name right now, he will be one of the authors that is looked back upon like Faulkner, Poe, and the other great writers are. A fantastic fucking book! Too bad most people haven't heard of it.

Anyway, I just got back from watching "V", having been an avid fan of Alan Moore's work for about eight years I have to say that this effort was lacking, but certainly an improvement over the previous abortions which attempted to adapt his work. ("The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" and "From Hell").

Personally, I think Fate should have been included in the film, giving it greater logic and being very relevent to Digital Age society. Also, where was the bombing of the Eyes, Ears and Mouth? I loved the government's steady loss of power and abilities.

The knife/kung-fu scenes were not needed, this film required a more literate treatment and it was excessive.

Finally, where was the LSD Concentration Camp scene?! The greatest part of the entire graphic novel!

Beyond that, how does V learn all the stuff (explosives making, fireworks making, engineering, subway train construction, knife fighting, cooking, disguise, poison work, etc) he knows with no apparent teacher or assistant?Obviously, he has an internet connection

Finally, where was the LSD Concentration Camp scene?! The greatest part of the entire graphic novel!
I really liked that scene, I was hoping it would have made it in there. The sensibility has changed a bit from the time of the writing to now, but with adjustment I think it would have played well. Imagine seperating out all the elements in the frame and doing slow, very slow, 'Vertigo' style depth of field adjustment in different directions at different speeds. It would do that dissorientation effect from acid without over playing it, with a bass running just below human hearing with a faint tritone playing...ah well...

BIG F'in Spoiler

The reason V seems Omniscient is (in the book at least) that he has taken control of Fate - and all the cameras at her disposal so he can find pretty much anything he likes.

BIG F'in Spoiler
Yeah, leaving that out had a cost.

I really liked that scene, I was hoping it would have made it in there. The sensibility has changed a bit from the time of the writing to now, but with adjustment I think it would have played well. Imagine seperating out all the elements in the frame and doing slow, very slow, 'Vertigo' style depth of field adjustment in different directions at different speeds. It would do that dissorientation effect from acid without over playing it, with a bass running just below human hearing with a faint tritone playing...ah well... I know how you feel. Just before "V" was screened, I saw a trailer for "Kokoda", which I hadn't heard a thing about. Pretty much the project I've dreamed about filming for most of my life and somebody had to come and steal my thunder. Oh well.

Don't worry. I just saw the movie myself. One of the most amazing movies I've laid eyes on in quite a long time. Incredible action, but at the same time, great drama, and one of the best messages in film. Especially in that last 5-1/2 years.

Possible spoilers below


? What message? That properly timed mass peaceful resistance and blowing up buildings that are either empty or have been announced as targets well in advance are powerful symbols? Or the idea of governments being afraid of their people, and not vice versa? The former is a no-brainer, the latter has been espoused by the libertarians, most of the NRA, the black bloc, and various other organizations for years in one form or another for years. Oh, there's also the fact that overly authoritarian governments are bad. No shit sherlock. And might I add, the previous two points were approached much better in the Firefly series and the followup movie Serenity. The showed just how pervasive such a mindset is and how it shows itself in the little innocent guise of "we're only here to help, don't you want to make life safer and more comfortable?"


The rest of the 'message' in the movie, insomuch as there is one, is a bunch of bush bashing bullshit. Seriously, the US military is not going to be stupid enough to release biological agents anywhere. Also, if we get into a war with China over Taiwan, as was alluded to in the original script, there will be at least limited nuclear use. Or just a whole lot of FAE's. Either way, it won't be the complete collapse envisioned by the Wachowski Bros.

The problem here is that the American movie goer apparently need to have everything spelled out for him. There is no silver platter for this movie. V himself explains that he had bee putting his pieces in place for years.
No, the problem here is that this American movie-goer wants a coherent story that makes sense and doesn't require him to read other material or start making conjectures on his own. If they had, at any point, even attempted to explain the abnormalities, I'd be happy. However, they don't, I'm just supposed to believe that V is smarter than the entire Universe, an expert at everything there is to know, and has access to every government file created.
Finch, the police inspector even acknowledges that the guy had been operating for many years.
I'm really supposed to believe that this guy made that much progress in just a few years? If a rebellion against a fascist government were that easy for one man to accomplish, wouldn't the fascist governments that spring up in the real world fall so much faster when they have entire organizations devoted to blowing stuff up?
Who says he had no funding?
Funding, in my case, was refering to official sponsorship. Throughout the movie, V works alone, and he makes this very clear.
He himself explaind how he had been raiding the vaults of "contraband material", who says he wasn't selling large quantities of it on some form of black market?
Ah, so not only has he learned every skill possible, and smuggled Juteboxes (not small stuff, mind, but a fucking jutebox) through the streets without anyone ever catching a wiff of his location, but now he also part times as a fence?
Oh, and I forgot rebuilding a section of the London underground, creating a million some-odd masks, mailing them Hell all over the place, and memorizing V-words to assist his agonizingly alliterated speeches.
They also give no shred of detail on his background, he could have been a martial arts expert, or could have learned how to fight in the years he spent after the detention center was destroyed.
He was also a demolitions expert, an engineer, a knife fighter (throwing a knife is hard, throwing it accurately in a fight is nearly impossible), a disguise artist, a master thief, a hacker, a chemist, and a chef before he was caught? No wonder he was kicking so much ass, this guy was ubermenschen before they even started the modifications.
All this leads to another thing that you seem to have ignored. Notice how he never allowed his mask to be removed through the entire movie. And, add Portman's line at the end. V is an alagory for every person. Every person who doesn't feel free, every person who lives in fear of their government, every person who is tired of being told that they shouldn't know what their leaders are up to, and are angry because of it.
The fucking Lion in the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe is also an allegory, and I never liked that book/movie either.
And, yeah, I got the allegory. I don't see how anyone could miss it, since the Wacowski (that's not a misspelling, that's anarchist spelling) brothers go about laying the symbolism with all the subtle of a sledgehammer. That still doesn't forgive the fact that the movie was (with the exception of the detective scenes, the explosions, and the TV station bits) pretty crappy.

you and your optomism. I give it 3 pages. max.

3 pages! Yeah! Nener Nenur Nnur! Yeah I know, had to rub it in someone face at the same time increase my post count. Sensless trolling!

V didn't have any particular passion. The only real difference between him and your average anarchist (removing, of course, angsty teenagers from the equation) is that he was omniscient, omnipotent, had a bottomless well of money located in his back pocket.
The plot holes, oh the plot holes! The sheer, gaping maws; huge caverns of logicless void.
*falls to the ground, shuddering*

My real post- I totally agree here, "just suddenly" is about badass as you can be with enough weapons to decimate small countries and enough money to bribe big ones. The reason; "V for Vedetta".

The rest of the 'message' in the movie, insomuch as there is one, is a bunch of bush bashing bullshit.
Yeah, you can tell by how many times he and his morally and psychologically bankrupt fellatio-peddlers get brought up.
Looks like someone is a little too sensitive about a bad choice.

Bush deserves to be bashed for as long as the scum remains in office

I don't see how anyone could miss it, since the Wacowski (that's not a misspelling, that's anarchist spelling) brothers go about laying the symbolism with all the subtle of a sledgehammer.
To the last, eh? ;)
Man, any more than that subtle distinction and i'd have to call you a poseur. But i know yer just "keepin' it real, yo"

I know how you feel. Just before "V" was screened, I saw a trailer for "Kokoda", which I hadn't heard a thing about. Pretty much the project I've dreamed about filming for most of my life and somebody had to come and steal my thunder. Oh well.
So many on my list that I don't get to do. This year alone three of them are being released (V for Vendetta, Bettie Page, and Scanner Darkly). You're supposed to remind yourself that you are more than one idea, but damn...

No, the problem here is that this American movie-goer wants a coherent story that makes sense and doesn't require him to read other material or start making conjectures on his own. If they had, at any point, even attempted to explain the abnormalities, I'd be happy. However, they don't, I'm just supposed to believe that V is smarter than the entire Universe, an expert at everything there is to know, and has access to every government file created.

I'm really supposed to believe that this guy made that much progress in just a few years? If a rebellion against a fascist government were that easy for one man to accomplish, wouldn't the fascist governments that spring up in the real world fall so much faster when they have entire organizations devoted to blowing stuff up?

Funding, in my case, was refering to official sponsorship. Throughout the movie, V works alone, and he makes this very clear.

Ah, so not only has he learned every skill possible, and smuggled Juteboxes (not small stuff, mind, but a fucking jutebox) through the streets without anyone ever catching a wiff of his location, but now he also part times as a fence?
Oh, and I forgot rebuilding a section of the London underground, creating a million some-odd masks, mailing them Hell all over the place, and memorizing V-words to assist his agonizingly alliterated speeches.

He was also a demolitions expert, an engineer, a knife fighter (throwing a knife is hard, throwing it accurately in a fight is nearly impossible), a disguise artist, a master thief, a hacker, a chemist, and a chef before he was caught? No wonder he was kicking so much ass, this guy was ubermenschen before they even started the modifications.

The fucking Lion in the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe is also an allegory, and I never liked that book/movie either.
And, yeah, I got the allegory. I don't see how anyone could miss it, since the Wacowski (that's not a misspelling, that's anarchist spelling) brothers go about laying the symbolism with all the subtle of a sledgehammer. That still doesn't forgive the fact that the movie was (with the exception of the detective scenes, the explosions, and the TV station bits) pretty crappy.
And Spiderman, stickin' to walls...give me a break.

Are you telling me Wolverine has claws coming out of his hands??? Who has that?

And don't even get me started on Superman...

My collaborator is more into the translations than I am, though I think he would say the same about me. I have a visual immagination and he has a text based one-at least that's the way he describes it. Anyway, he's the literary filter, being a lit prof. But really, if I had the clout to start adapting texts into movies I wouldn't have as much time to dick around here. I'm just a lowly crew worker and he's still a lit prof. Though we are inches away from our first published play (since it's the shortest one of the bunch, we're likely to only get copies of a magazine...ah well...)

I'll check that out, though. There's a chance my collaborator has already read it. (the guy absorbs books)
It recently won a literary award, so there is a great chance that he has read to book. Some of the chapters just scream "FILM ME!"

A fantastic fucking book! Too bad most people haven't heard of it.word to that. He will get more popular as time goes on...he's actually coming to talk at my school which is rare...he never talks in public things. I'm so pumped.

And Spiderman, stickin' to walls...give me a break.

Are you telling me Wolverine has claws coming out of his hands??? Who has that?

And don't even get me started on Superman...:p

Bush deserves to be bashed for as long as the scum remains in office
Admittedly, *any* public figure is a target ... it's just that this stuff sticks, since it's more on the true than the false side with Bush.

Yeah, you can tell by how many times he and his morally and psychologically bankrupt fellatio-peddlers get brought up.
Looks like someone is a little too sensitive about a bad choice.
Ah, of course you're right. Tell me, other than what I outlined above, what was the message of the movie?

Ah, of course you're right. Tell me, other than what I outlined above, what was the message of the movie?
on a superficial level, you're right. Look deeper and you'll find bigger messages.

And Spiderman, stickin' to walls...give me a break.

Are you telling me Wolverine has claws coming out of his hands??? Who has that?

And don't even get me started on Superman...
Neither of those compare. V, after all, is Jesus with a knife and a nuclear bomb. He knows everything people do, the moment they do it. Not only that, but he knows what they'll do before they do it.
And he builds a train out of scrap metal, fills it with explosives, and (somehow) hides it from police.
More importantly, he's never in any danger. Except that once, when one man with a pistol has him covered (and worried), nevermind that he just killed three other men similarly armed (and that he'll later over come about a dozen men with machine guns).

Ah, of course you're right. Tell me, other than what I outlined above, what was the message of the movie?
Good thing i make ya privvy to all that jazz through three threads. *nods*