NationStates Jolt Archive

Havent been on the boards in awhile so do not know if these pictures and comments have already been posted. As I watch these pro-illegal alien marches throughout our border states. Does anyone else see this as a red flag? I know congress is trying to put together a semi-amnesty bill. But I find that the actions of some of the Mexicans inside the US as apalling. In some cases it's led to what I would term a start of new "problem" with our neighbor to the south. Here is a link to an interesting page highlighting some of the events that have taken place lately. I know that the majority of these are students. But I do know that they carry the sentiment of alot of the parents. I find the picture of the Mexican flag with the American flag upside down fitting on this occasion. A national sign of distress. If this isnt that I'm not sure what is. So what do we do? I know for one a 12 million strong invasion of illegal aliens is hard to thwart.


http://www.michellemalkin.com/

We should keep em out! This is America, we speak English not Mexican

The only thing I can say is that I am utterly APPALLED at those pictures. No, appalled doesn't cover it. I am OUTRAGED at them. I only wish my friends and I were there....there'd have been a flag burning...one that Americans could appreciate. How DARE they come to OUR country, and then disrespect us and our flag!!!!

You say America is being imperialistic? This is a much more subtle form.

I think the major uproar is not over the 11 million or so that are here, it is the fact that if you grant US citizenship to those 11 million, they have the right to bring their 10 member family here to live with them, which poses a big threat to our welfare system and Medicaid system. Member, the major people some companies want to hire illegals is that they work for less wages, which in turn means they will be below the poverty level.

We should keep em out! This is America, we speak English not Mexican
Silly rabbit. You don't 'speak English', you 'talk Uhmurricun'.

if they're legal, its protesting.

if they're illegal, its disturbing.

how do people who come here illegally expect to be protected by our laws?

if they like mexico so much why dont they stay there and try and fix there own economy insted of helping in in its down fall by comming to the USA????

i say give all the ranch owners on the mexico border the right to enforce trusspassing laws. if we catch you on our propety we shoot you. i think that this would send a clear message.

Considering the pictures I've been seeing over here show the groups waving both the Stars and Stripes AND the flag of Mexico, I don't really know what you're complaining about.

Not to mention this is yet another in a long line of immigrants who are fighting for equality in the US. The last time we went through this the Irish were doing it and now said Irish protests have turned into the St Patrick's Day Parade.

I think the major uproar is not over the 11 million or so that are here, it is the fact that if you grant US citizenship to those 11 million, they have the right to bring their 10 member family here to live with them, which poses a big threat to our welfare system and Medicaid system. Member, the major people some companies want to hire illegals is that they work for less wages, which in turn means they will be below the poverty level.

and we wonder why we are seeing a MAJOR rise in cases of pollio :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Considering the pictures I've been seeing over here show the groups waving both the Stars and Stripes AND the flag of Mexico, I don't really know what you're complaining about.

Not to mention this is yet another in a long line of immigrants who are fighting for equality in the US. The last time we went through this the Irish were doing it and now said Irish protests have turned into the St Patrick's Day Parade.


God bless the Irish for yummy Corned Beef & cabbage.....

if they like mexico so much why dont they stay there and try and fix there own economy insted of helping in in its down fall by comming to the USA????

i say give all the ranch owners on the mexico border the right to enforce trusspassing laws. if we catch you on our propety we shoot you. i think that this would send a clear message.
You do realize remittances, that is the money they send back, is the 3rd largest sector in the Mexican economy and by coming here they help the Mexican economy incredibly, which is why they are regarded by President Fox to be something of heros.

We should keep em out! This is America, we speak English not Mexican

Correction - Mutilated English.

And Mexicans speak Spanish, genius.

Yes, yes, yes!!! It is appaulling. Why can't we first seal the border? We have Iraqis tripping over Mexicans to get in here. It's not our fault that people come here illegally and build a life under the radar. So they've been here for 20 years. In all that time they couldn't begin the process of becoming legal. In a news story today, a boy said his mother was an illegal who had been in the US for 25 years working and supposedly paying taxes. He said it costs too much to become a citizen. Maybe he could forgo the Nikes he was wearing and the cell phone he was holding so his mother could afford to become legal. It is just laziness and getting around the law.

Sorry when you start claiming that this is Mexico my patience ends, you want Mexico there it is go southwest. Just get the F*** out. Stop supporting a country that you abandoned, by leaving Mexico you have betrayed them. YOU ARE TRAITORS TO MEXICO SO STOP BEING PROUD OF BEING FROM A COUNTRY THAT YOU GAVE THE MIDDLE FINGER TO WHILE LEAVING!
*Deep Breath*
That's my feeling.

*Grabs pitchfork* As a resident of Texas it so easy to spot an illegal from a legal. "They took er jobs!"

You do realize remittances, that is the money they send back, is the 3rd largest sector in the Mexican economy and by coming here they help the Mexican economy incredibly, which is why they are regarded by President Fox to be something of heros.

i do realise that. but if they stayed in mexico and started busnesses and jobs there it would have a more helpful effect on tthe mexican economy.
if they want to come here legely i have no problum with it, its the ones that come here illigley and then expect to be treated like citizens that bother me.

God bless the Irish for yummy Corned Beef & cabbage.....
Which is just funny as that's not what's eaten in Ireland on that day, but that's another thread.

It's of course hard to tell how many of the protesters are US Citizens or here legally (I would assume the majority as the illegals probably wouldn't want to attact attention and marching in front of the Capitol is a very good way to get attention).

They have the right to protest and the right to let the Congress know their opinion should they be legal (and the idea of a citizenship check to protest is really, really silly). They have pride in their culture and community, what's the problem?

Considering the pictures I've been seeing over here show the groups waving both the Stars and Stripes AND the flag of Mexico, I don't really know what you're complaining about.

Not to mention this is yet another in a long line of immigrants who are fighting for equality in the US. The last time we went through this the Irish were doing it and now said Irish protests have turned into the St Patrick's Day Parade.

They are illegal. They don't have protected rights in this country. No one has a problem with LEGAL immigrants.

and we wonder why we are seeing a MAJOR rise in cases of pollio :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Polio was erradicated from Mexico over 20 years ago. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Polio was erradicated from Mexico over 20 years ago. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

i was taking about the rise of pollio in the USA:rolleyes:

You say America is being imperialistic? This is a much more subtle form.

Good Lord that is a stupid comment.

This is just an example of a underpriveleged group of people binding together under symbols that they all recognize. I only breezed through the website, but the only bad thing out of that is the redicule directed towards the girl with an American flag.

Polio was erradicated from Mexico over 20 years ago. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
But crime, poverty, pollution, and corruption werent.

Whether are not you choose to accept it, illegal immigrants make up an integral part of our workforce. The United States could not function without them. What makes the U.S. special is that this is an immigrant country. No other nation can completely live up to that claim like the U.S.

And Mexicans speak Spanish, genius.
Thanks, but its the same thing

But crime, poverty, pollution, and corruption werent.
The poster was complaining about a rise in polio. Crime, poverty, pollution, and corruption haven't been erradicated from anywhere.

He said it costs too much to become a citizen. Maybe he could forgo the Nikes he was wearing and the cell phone he was holding so his mother could afford to become legal. It is just laziness and getting around the law.
Er, have you LOOKED at how much and how long the process is to come to the US, let alone become a citizen?

I'm engaged to a Japanese woman. I've been looking at what we both need to do for her to come to the US as a resident should we decide to live there. Even as a spouce of a US citizen (by birth)... well, and here I thought the US Tax code was complicated. It's a process that takes years, a whole hell of a lot of money, and can be denied at any time for no reason and no appeal.

i was taking about the rise of pollio in the USA:rolleyes:
Not coming from Mexico, if that's what you meant to imply.

But crime, poverty, pollution, and corruption werent.

I'm guessing that Mexicans aren't going to increase the level of any of those other than poverty, and that is only because we don't allow them to integrate.

I say we deport all illegals From Every Country and build an Israeli style defense wall around our borders with snipers posted along the wall. :sniper:

They are illegal. They don't have protected rights in this country. No one has a problem with LEGAL immigrants.
You mean to tell me that every protester marching currently in the United States is illegal?

And you can prove this how?

Correction - Mutilated English.

And Mexicans speak Spanish, genius.
Correction - Mutilated Spanish.

I say we deport all illegals From Every Country and build an Israeli style defense wall around our borders with snipers posted along the wall. :sniper:
Yes, because no only does the US share the largest border in the world (Canada), but we all just loved the Berlin Wall and never had any problem with it what-so-ever.

The poster was complaining about a rise in polio. Crime, poverty, pollution, and corruption haven't been erradicated from anywhere.
If you take the first three alone you can put up an arguement for Singapore.

You mean to tell me that every protester marching currently in the United States is illegal?

And you can prove this how?

Of course not all of these protesters are illegal aliens. However the ones that are protesting alongside as citizens is even more troubling than the latter.

Of course not all of these protesters are illegal aliens. However the ones that are protesting alongside as citizens is even more troubling than the latter.
So how can you tell the difference? I'd dearly like to know, please.

*Grabs pitchfork* As a resident of Texas it so easy to spot an illegal from a legal. "They took er jobs!"Yeah. By the way, here's your toilet brush and your $8.00 for today. Be sure and clean the windows too.

You mean to tell me that every protester marching currently in the United States is illegal?

And you can prove this how?
The point is they are marching for illegal immigrants to have rights. whether the actual people marching are illegal or not, I bet some are and some aren't.

So how can you tell the difference? I'd dearly like to know, please.

Just yell IMMIGRACION! Whoever runs.... Well you get my point.:cool:

Of course not all of these protesters are illegal aliens. However the ones that are protesting alongside as citizens is even more troubling than the latter.

So you obviously believe that legal=right.

I mean who could sympathise with someone who was breaking the law?

EDIT: I bet some of the people at civil rights protests had illegally sat in on white's only restaurants. Who could want to associate with those criminals?

Er, have you LOOKED at how much and how long the process is to come to the US, let alone become a citizen?

I'm engaged to a Japanese woman. I've been looking at what we both need to do for her to come to the US as a resident should we decide to live there. Even as a spouce of a US citizen (by birth)... well, and here I thought the US Tax code was complicated. It's a process that takes years, a whole hell of a lot of money, and can be denied at any time for no reason and no appeal.
I also have family from other country looking to become citizens, including my mother. Yes, I am familiar. In this case we were talking about 25 years. They couldn't take any steps to become legal in that length of time???

Thanks, but its the same thing

Real Mexican would be Incan, so it's not the same thing.

I say we deport all illegals From Every Country and build an Israeli style defense wall around our borders with snipers posted along the wall. :sniper:
Agreed! I think we are focusing on Mexico because of the protests, but in my opinion it extends to ALL illegals, regardless of their country.

i do realise that. but if they stayed in mexico and started busnesses and jobs there it would have a more helpful effect on tthe mexican economy.
if they want to come here legely i have no problum with it, its the ones that come here illigley and then expect to be treated like citizens that bother me.
when the economy cant produce enough jobs in said country, it would make sense that going to another to reduce the pressure on the home economy and than send money back to the home economy to help simulate and grow the economy would be better than them staying, no?

So you obviously believe that legal=right.

I mean who could sympathise with someone who was breaking the law?

EDIT: I bet some of the people at civil rights protests had illegally sat in on white's only restaurants. Who could want to associate with those criminals?
well why have laws, let's just throw it open and whatever happens, happens. if we don't enforce our laws, what's the point. if you don't like the law, change it. until then...

Real Mexican would be Incan, so it's not the same thing.
:rolleyes:

Here is a link to an interesting page highlighting some of the events that have taken place lately.

http://www.michellemalkin.com/
Dude, you're linking to Michelle "Let's find someone else to hate for today's column" Malkin.

I've seen no evidence whatsoever that those protesting (and legally so) are anything but documented workers, who are tired of themselves (and their undocumented kin) being treated like indentured servants.

And for the people calling for a wall with or without a guest worker program. Got an example where that hasn't created an angry, internal minority who has no stake in the welfare of the nation?

So you obviously believe that legal=right.

I mean who could sympathise with someone who was breaking the law?

EDIT: I bet some of the people at civil rights protests had illegally sat in on white's only restaurants. Who could want to associate with those criminals?
Oh, come on. Illegal immigrants are hardly practicing civil disobediance. You should feel ashamed to even draw the comparison.

Real Mexican would be Incan, so it's not the same thing.
Uh, wouldn't it be Aztacen, since the Incan's were in Peru more.

However the ones that are protesting alongside as citizens is even more troubling than the latter.

why? if they get their way, all the illegal immigrants will become legal, and you will welcome them with open arms. cause what you really care about it the legal status of a bunch of paperwork and not something else, right?

I also have family from other country looking to become citizens, including my mother. Yes, I am familiar. In this case we were talking about 25 years. They couldn't take any steps to become legal in that length of time???
To do so, you have to leave the US first, then apply, then be accepted, and THEN immagrate.

Not saying that what they did isn't illegal. I'm saying the system is an absolute mess that seriously needs to be reformed to take into account problems like this. Our system is a hodgepodge of xenophobic legislation that comes around every time we have a 'scare'. Right now we're in a brown scare. The mid-1800's was Irish. The early 1900's was Italians and Eastern Europeans + Russians. The 'Yellow peril' from Asia has been with us for ages.

The arguments are almost always the same, just whomever the target is changes. I don't doubt they're protesting as I'd be pissed off too if Japan suddenly passed a xenophobic law even if I AM here legally.

And actually Japan is trying to do so and I am annoyed.

Real Mexican would be Incan, so it's not the same thing.

That comment made my day, thank you. :p

Unless you were serious..

Dude, you're linking to Michelle "Let's find someone else to hate for today's column" Malkin.

I've seen no evidence whatsoever that those protesting (and legally so) are anything but documented workers, who are tired of themselves (and their undocumented kin) being treated like indentured servants.

And for the people calling for a wall with or without a guest worker program. Got an example where that hasn't created an angry, internal minority who has no stake in the welfare of the nation?
on the contrary, i believe one of their main points is that they are critical to our economy for the specific reason that they will take those jobs/treatment that no one else will.

About the wall thing, it's not like splitting Germany in half. It is a divider between two countries, one of whose border is being constantly breached illegally. that's a good reason for some kind of barrier there.

To do so, you have to leave the US first, then apply, then be accepted, and THEN immagrate.

Not saying that what they did isn't illegal. I'm saying the system is an absolute mess that seriously needs to be reformed to take into account problems like this. Our system is a hodgepodge of xenophobic legislation that comes around every time we have a 'scare'. Right now we're in a brown scare. The mid-1800's was Irish. The early 1900's was Italians and Eastern Europeans + Russians. The 'Yellow peril' from Asia has been with us for ages.

The arguments are almost always the same, just whomever the target is changes. I don't doubt they're protesting as I'd be pissed off too if Japan suddenly passed a xenophobic law even if I AM here legally.

And actually Japan is trying to do so and I am annoyed.
It really depends on the situation. My family did it legally. But I agree it is a huge mess. It's not any group of immigrants that are only responsible. Our govt is at major fault and I wish they would actually make a workable plan and then DO IT. I can understand your frustrations.

well why have laws, let's just throw it open and whatever happens, happens. if we don't enforce our laws, what's the point. if you don't like the law, change it. until then...

Why do we have laws? You should probably examine that question.

I have another question, how have unjust laws been changed in the past?

Oh, come on. Illegal immigrants are hardly practicing civil disobediance. You should feel ashamed to even draw the comparison.

Perhaps you should show me the difference, otherwise I might just be convinced you are prejudiced against immigrants.

why? if they get their way, all the legals will become legal, and you will welcome them with open arms. cause what you really care about it the legal status of a bunch of paperwork and not something else, right?

I am married to an immigrant myself. The US is a nation of laws. We as a nation cannot have people running around flaunting our laws. Especially ones that entered this nation illegally. I do care about legal status. It means for one that the person that went through the immigration process has a basic respect for the law of my nation. When they cross illegally or show up in a cargo hold of a ship than I have a problem. I really have a problem when they start protesting and saying that they own the place. Replacing my national flag on my nation soil with a foreign flag is over the line. Damn lucky I wasnt there to witness this. Kids or not I would not have stood for it. Follow the damn rules is all I say. When you legally come here than I welcome you.

If someone were to show up at your door and you welcome him/her in than it's alright.
When someone breaks down your door than you have a different situation don't you?

This is the same difference on a national scale. However the one that would break through my door would be shot if I were at home. Surely I wouldn't give him/her permission to enter after they broke my door down.

It really depends on the situation. My family did it legally. But I agree it is a huge mess. It's not any group of immigrants that are only responsible. Our govt is at major fault and I wish they would actually make a workable plan and then DO IT. I can understand your frustrations.
Which is why I do not mind the protests as in the past, just about every other immigrant group has had to do the same to get the Congress and the Administration to listen.

Thus is life in America.

Replacing my national flag on my nation soil with a foreign flag is over the line. Damn lucky I wasnt there to witness this. Kids or not I would not have stood for it.

you must be a blast on st. patty's day

Uh, wouldn't it be Aztacen, since the Incan's were in Peru more.

Hmm, you're right. But it would be mostly Mayan, since that's the Aztecs pretty much based themselves off.

Hmm, you're right. But it would be mostly Mayan, since that's the Aztecs pretty much based themselves off.
:rolleyes:

you must be a blast on st. patty's day


Since I own and run an Irish bar I would hope so.... BTW just so you know the Irish and American flag fly together outside the bar. There is no disrespecting of flags in my establishment.

if they like mexico so much why dont they stay there and try and fix there own economy insted of helping in in its down fall by comming to the USA????



Yes, because that is such a valid arguement. That's like saying anyone proud of their heritage, whether it is mexican, german, irish or whatever, should all go back to those respectivie nations. Plus there is no way that they can help their economy by staying down there, without any jobs. However, they come here, make some cash, send some back, their family can survive and MAYBE be able to buy something extra thus somewhat stimulating the economy.

I say let them protest, as long as they are not commiting any crimes, like damaging property, or starting mass riots.

This may have already been mentioned in the last 3 pages, but the Mexican legislature is currently considering a widely popular bill to make illegals in Texas a new electoral district of Mexico. I was absolutely appalled - first, they flood our country with millions of uneducated, unwanted drains on the budget who don't even learn to speak English, and now they propose to infringe upon our national sovereignty without so much as a by-your-leave?

That's not even to mention the incidents, however vehemently denied by the untrustworthy, deceptive, and corrupt Mexican government, where Mexican special-forces military operatives accompanying illegal-immigrant drug carriers across the border fired upon US Border Patrol agents.

I think it's high time the f'ing Mexicans, illegals and the national government both, got taught a very serious lesson about exactly how far America will permit herself to be pushed.

This may have already been mentioned in the last 3 pages, but the Mexican legislature is currently considering a widely popular bill to make illegals in Texas a new electoral district of Mexico. I was absolutely appalled - first, they flood our country with millions of uneducated, unwanted drains on the budget who don't even learn to speak English, and now they propose to infringe upon our national sovereignty without so much as a by-your-leave?
:confused: The law is to allow Mexicans outside Mexico vote in Mexican federal elections. How does that infringe upon your sovereignity?

on the contrary, i believe one of their main points is that they are critical to our economy for the specific reason that they will take those jobs/treatment that no one else will.Surely you aren't arguing that documented aliens are taking 5- and 6-figure jobs away from good ol' boys? No, both documented and undocumented aliens are working jobs that employers would have a difficult time filling--certainly at a wage that doesn't result in decreased corporate profits. (And grod knows corporate profits are the be-all end-all in the corporatocracy that we've become.) It's why Cornyn (R-Tex) is pushing so hard for a guest worker program--gotta keep a a supply of cheap labor that has to go home in two years.

About the wall thing, it's not like splitting Germany in half. It is a divider between two countries, one of whose border is being constantly breached illegally. that's a good reason for some kind of barrier there.Still waiting for an example of where a wall has worked. Your reference to the Berlin wall is interesting... have you even stopped to consider how many machine-gun posts would be required from the Gulf Coast to the Pacific to keep those "dirty Mexicans" from getting around ye olde vaunted wall?

Perhaps you should show me the difference, otherwise I might just be convinced you are prejudiced against immigrants.
Civil disobediance: They peacefully assembled to fight unjust laws. Illegals snuck across our border for the benifit of them and their family, not a collective group of oppressed people. They lack any purpose in changing laws already here that could make life more just for them, since they could not vote where as people who practive civil disobediance can because they are typically citizens of the country.

here is a crazy idea.. To solve the whole damn problem, let us make the American Union. No borders, a common currency and so on..just model it after the EU since that seems to be doing so well.

here is a crazy idea.. To solve the whole damn problem, let us make the American Union. No borders, a common currency and so on..just model it after the EU since that seems to be doing so well.

Well we had control of Mexico at one time. Maybe should have kept it. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.

This may have already been mentioned in the last 3 pages, but the Mexican legislature is currently considering a widely popular bill to make illegals in Texas a new electoral district of Mexico. I was absolutely appalled - first, they flood our country with millions of uneducated, unwanted drains on the budget who don't even learn to speak English, and now they propose to infringe upon our national sovereignty without so much as a by-your-leave?
Um... does that mean when I get my absentee ballot and vote in the national, state, and local elections I am violating Japan's sovereignty?

Huh, and here I thought it was a really cool teaching aid to explain about American style democracy.

Well we had control of Mexico at one time. Maybe should have kept it. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.
We also took over half of Mexico and kept it.

Well we had control of Mexico at one time. Maybe should have kept it. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.
Lots of people both in Mexico and the US were for the idea. The southern states didn't like Mexico not being pro-slavery and felt that it would give anti-slavery movements too much political power.

Civil disobediance: They peacefully assembled to fight unjust laws. Illegals snuck across our border for the benifit of them and their family, not a collective group of oppressed people. They lack any purpose in changing laws already here that could make life more just for them, since they could not vote where as people who practive civil disobediance can because they are typically citizens of the country.

Oh, I get it.

The Mexican's aren't practicing civil disobedience because you agree with the laws that they are fighting against. I see.

Upon first reading I thought that you were saying that Mexicans don't feel like they are oppressed, that laws aren't changed to make people's lives better, and that only citizens can protest. Of course all three of those points are wrong, so on second read I was able to see what wasn't actually in the text.

Oh, I get it.

The Mexican's aren't practicing civil disobedience because you agree with the laws that they are fighting against. I see.

Upon first reading I thought that you were saying that Mexicans don't feel like they are oppressed, that laws aren't changed to make people's lives better, and that only citizens can protest. Of course all three of those points are wrong, so on second read I was able to see what wasn't actually in the text.
I am not talking about the protesters. Let's get that clear. They are fine trying to change the laws through the methods they are undergoing. I am talking about the guys sneaking over the border.

:confused: The law is to allow Mexicans outside Mexico vote in Mexican federal elections. How does that infringe upon your sovereignity?

The Mexican national government has no electoral jurisdiction inside of our country. Illegal immigrants are criminals who have surrendered themselves to our law enforcement system, and are not legitimate.

When, for example, a soldier stationed in another country votes via an absentee ballot, he's simply sending a message to his government that they can use as they wish. The presence of this person on that foreign nation's soil, and his interactions with them and with his home country, are regulated by voluntary agreement between the two nations.

Illegal immigrants are criminals illegally resident in and subject to the criminal laws of the United States, and there is no bilateral agreement saying that the US allows this electoral process, which will inevitably require Mexican action inside our borders because of the circumstances involving illegal aliens. It's basically an arbitrary, unilateral extension of legal authority across US borders without American agreement to provide enfranchisement to extranational criminals who have surrendered their right to legitimacy and are subject to US criminal law, which this proposed Mexican law ignores.

Basically, legitimate, non-criminal individuals who are legally resident in a foreign nation and by agreement participate in election remotely is one thing; extending electoral jurisdiction into another country's territory to exert authority over and provide enfranchisement to illegitimate criminals and illegal residents is entirely different.

I am not talking about the protesters. Let's get that clear. They are fine trying to change the laws through the methods they are undergoing. I am talking about the guys sneaking over the border.

I can see where you stand there, as they aren't trying to make a political statement.

However, in my opinion, they are just ignoring an unjust law, which is also fine by me, and could be considered an obligation to all of us.

The Mexican national government has no electoral jurisdiction inside of our country. Illegal immigrants are criminals who have surrendered themselves to our law enforcement system, and are not legitimate.
If Mexico was attempting to state that illegals could vote in US elections, I would agree, but this is Mexican nationals (And I would challenge you that this system was ment ONLY for illegals and not just targeted at all Mexican nationals regardless of status in the US) voting in a Mexican election. Hardly a direct challenge to America.

When, for example, a soldier stationed in another country votes via an absentee ballot, he's simply sending a message to his government that they can use as they wish. The presence of this person on that foreign nation's soil, and his interactions with them and with his home country, are regulated by voluntary agreement between the two nations.
This agreement's called the mail system then? That's a new one for me. There is no agreement between the United States and Japan that covers an ex-pat voting (as is my right) in US elections from Japan; beyond the one stating that mail from the US may pass through Japan Post to me

Illegal immigrants are criminals illegally resident in and subject to the criminal laws of the United States, and there is no bilateral agreement saying that the US allows this electoral process, which will inevitably require Mexican action inside our borders because of the circumstances involving illegal aliens.
What circumstances? We're talking about the flipping mail, unless the US Postal Service has some strange new regulation that requires it to check the citizenship of everyone it delivers mail to that I am not aware of.

It's basically an arbitrary, unilateral extension of legal authority across US borders without American agreement to provide enfranchisement to extranational criminals who have surrendered their right to legitimacy and are subject to US criminal law, which this proposed Mexican law ignores.
Even those in prison get mail. If the country of citizenship allows people in jail to vote, I hardly see where it is the concern of the US that this happens or that a special treaty or agreement is needed.

Basically, legitimate, non-criminal individuals who are legally resident in a foreign nation and by agreement participate in election remotely is one thing; extending electoral jurisdiction into another country's territory to exert authority over and provide enfranchisement to illegitimate criminals and illegal residents is entirely different.
How? Mexico didn't grant them the right to vote in US elections. And I really would like to see proof that this was targeted at all Mexican nationals in the US illegally, unless you plan to state that all Mexican nationals in the US are illegal.

The Mexican national government has no electoral jurisdiction inside of our country. Illegal immigrants are criminals who have surrendered themselves to our law enforcement system, and are not legitimate.
Oh, mine. So much wrong and so little time. Let's just say that a country does not need a bilateral agreement to let its citizens vote from another country. The process is usually carried through consulates and embassies anyway, so it doesn't interfere at all with the other country's activities. It's not claiming jurisdiction over other territory, nor legalizing the status of people who vote.

:rolleyes:

Why are you doing this?!?!

Oh, mine. So much wrong and so little time. Let's just say that a country does not need a bilateral agreement to let it's citizens vote from another country. The process is usually carried through consulates and embassies anyway, so it doesn't interfere at all with the other country's activities. It's not claiming jurisdiction over other territory, nor legalizing the status of people who vote.
Exactly. When I request my absentee ballot from the Clerk Recorder's office, the only way the Japanese goverment gets invloved is that I have to hike to the local post office and get an airmail stamp for 110 yen and ask them to mail the letter to Carson City, Nevada.

Well, they also have to deliver said ballot to me at home, but the post office seems to like me even though I cause a fair amount of trouble every once in a while (Like noting that just because the address was in English, it doesn't mean that it's my mail).

Mexicans are teh awesome. Being Texan, I fully recognize Mexico's right for their citizens to come and go as they please and do whatever they want while they're here.

I love Mexicans.

Kick them out and you answer to me.

Why are you doing this?!?!cos of the inca=/= aztec detail (no Big deal really..dont worry about it)

Why are you doing this?!?!
Because you are so waaaaaaay off base in your statements that it would take too long to explain how wrong you are.

I'll try the abbreviated version.

Incas=Peru, Chile, Ecuador, Bolivia, Colombia.

Aztecs=Central Mexico, originally from Sonora or Arizona. Unrelated to Mayas or to anyone else in that region from that matter. Also called Mexicas, which is were Mexico gets its name, although they only occupied a fraction of modern day Mexico.

Mayas=Yucatan peninsula and northern Central America. Unrelated to Aztecs.

The two languages are totally different, plus they're only two of the 200 or so languages spoken around the time of the Spanish conquest.

This may have already been mentioned in the last 3 pages, but the Mexican legislature is currently considering a widely popular bill to make illegals in Texas a new electoral district of Mexico. I was absolutely appalled - first, they flood our country with millions of uneducated, unwanted drains on the budget who don't even learn to speak English, and now they propose to infringe upon our national sovereignty without so much as a by-your-leave?

That's not even to mention the incidents, however vehemently denied by the untrustworthy, deceptive, and corrupt Mexican government, where Mexican special-forces military operatives accompanying illegal-immigrant drug carriers across the border fired upon US Border Patrol agents.

I think it's high time the f'ing Mexicans, illegals and the national government both, got taught a very serious lesson about exactly how far America will permit herself to be pushed.
And this pisses you off?

We also took over half of Mexico and kept it.

Well Texas was an independent nation when it joined with the US. California was going to form its own nation if it were not going for statehood. Also southren New Mexico and Arizona were pruchased for a RR right of way in the Gadsen purchase. With all that said we also took the 13 colonies from England too. As well as Puerto Rico and the pacific territories from the Spanish. I don't know how many times I have to say this on these boards. When one side loses a war they do not get to dictate what the terms are normally. The terms for the ending of the Mexican-American war was basically giving up claim on the South West.

Mexicans are teh awesome. Being Texan, I fully recognize Mexico's right for their citizens to come and go as they please and do whatever they want while they're here.

I love Mexicans.

.
No problem here too if they do it legally...... I think that is the whole point to this post.

Well Texas was an independent nation when it joined with the US. California was going to form its own nation if it were not going for statehood.that history was written like that by the US gov (victors write history)

The terms for the ending of the Mexican-American war was basically giving up claim on the South West.
And there was a later treaty to buy Baja California and the Isthmus of Tehuantepec, but it was rejected by the US Congress (Mexican Congress had already approved). In one of the periods of Yucatan's independence they requested joining the US in exchange of help against a Mayan revolt. But the US Congress didn't take it too seriously once they found out Britain and France weren't too interested in the same offer.

One very curious thing is that the Guadalupe-Hidalgo treaty doesn't cover the islands off the coast of California, but no one noticed and everybody assumed they went along with the rest of the territory. Someone finally noticed about 100 years later but by then there was no point doing anything.

that history was written like that by the US gov (victors write history)

Not going to disagree on that point.

Anyone else alarmed at Irish nationalism inside the US? They even have us celebrating THEIR holiday! :eek: Over THIRTY million people in America are of Irish ancestry, and a shocking number of them are criminals! We should send them all back to Ireland!!

Well Texas was an independent nation when it joined with the US. California was going to form its own nation if it were not going for statehood. Also southren New Mexico and Arizona were pruchased for a RR right of way in the Gadsen purchase. With all that said we also took the 13 colonies from England too. As well as Puerto Rico and the pacific territories from the Spanish. I don't know how many times I have to say this on these boards. When one side loses a war they do not get to dictate what the terms are normally. The terms for the ending of the Mexican-American war was basically giving up claim on the South West.
California's independance movement consisted of a small population in Monterey, hardly the same situation as Texas.

Any case, my point being that you said we controled Mexico at one point in time and should have kept it. I'm just noting that we took half of Mexico in a war (And it was a war we started) and kept it. The people actually living there didn't get a choice in the matter.

I’m not afraid of Mexican nationalism in the US because outside of LA I see no evidence of its existence. Most of them realize that whatever we did here, we did a hell of al ot better than whatever they did.
that history was written like that by the US gov (victors write history)
Hmm, so enlighten us as to what really happened.

California's independance movement consisted of a small population in Monterey, hardly the same situation as Texas.

Any case, my point being that you said we controled Mexico at one point in time and should have kept it. I'm just noting that we took half of Mexico in a war (And it was a war we started) and kept it. The people actually living there didn't get a choice in the matter.


The California independence movement would have grown with the gold rush if the US didnt grant statehood or territory status. I would almost be money on it. But anyway The Mexican American war was started by Mexico in my opinion. The situation was that Mexico was going to start a second war with Texas. The Mexican government said that if the US interfered than it would mean war. The US and Texas then negotiated statehood as a means of protection by the US of Texas. Therefore the war was on. So who started what? I would be on the side of Mexico instigating the war. Feel free to explain different.

No problem here too if they do it legally...... I think that is the whole point to this post.

Meh ... I say relax it all.

They're Mexicans. Let 'em come! Let them work here and send the money back to their families. Who cares? It doesn't really hurt us.

If they build that big wall, I'd be the first to stand up and say, "Mr. Bush .... tear down this wall!"

Of course, they won't build that big wall. In the words of Carlos Mencia, "If they kick out the beaners, who would build it?!"

I’m not afraid of Mexican nationalism in the US because outside of LA I see no evidence of its existence. Most of them realize that whatever we did here, we did a hell of al ot better than whatever they did.
.


Check the news stories I have heard of Colorado and Dallas mentioned today in the news. I am sure there may be more.

Here's my opinion on a solution: If the government finds a business employing illegals, the illegals should be deported (and disqualified from being able to legally enter the US), and the owners/operators of the business should be assessed substantial fines and jail time (enough to make sure they won't keep hiring illegals).

Meh ... I say relax it all.

They're Mexicans. Let 'em come! Let them work here and send the money back to their families. Who cares? It doesn't really hurt us.

If they build that big wall, I'd be the first to stand up and say, "Mr. Bush .... tear down this wall!"

Of course, they won't build that big wall. In the words of Carlos Mencia, "If they kick out the beaners, who would build it?!"

And, more importantly, if there were no mexicans, who would make my sandwiches?

Basically, mexican labor is like crack-cocaine for the US economy.

And, more importantly, if there were no mexicans, who would make my sandwiches?

Basically, mexican labor is like crack-cocaine for the US economy.

'sactly!

You've seen "A Day Without a Mexican" I take it? :D

Meh ... I say relax it all.

They're Mexicans. Let 'em come! Let them work here and send the money back to their families. Who cares? It doesn't really hurt us.

If they build that big wall, I'd be the first to stand up and say, "Mr. Bush .... tear down this wall!"

Of course, they won't build that big wall. In the words of Carlos Mencia, "If they kick out the beaners, who would build it?!"

I think the biggest problem for most as with myself is the respect for US law.

As far as hurting us. I have heard the Arizona and New Mexico governers explain in detail how much the costs of illegals are on there states. It is suprising to say the least.

As far as the wall. I doubt it would be built. I think a basic barrier as most nations use with human border patrol in the right numbers would go along way.

The situation was that Mexico was going to start a second war with Texas. The Mexican government said that if the US interfered than it would mean war. The US and Texas then negotiated statehood as a means of protection by the US of Texas. Therefore the war was on. So who started what? I would be on the side of Mexico instigating the war. Feel free to explain different.
Mexico had not recognized Texan independence (it didn't until the treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo). The United States knowingly increased tensions by recognizing Texas and even more by extending statehood later. Even worse was sending the Army across the border into Mexican, at best disputed, territory to establish a series of forts. I say that pretty much puts the start of the war on the United States.

Hmm, so enlighten us as to what really happened.El Zorro .. he chased after the ballot Boxes.. and with the help of the Pinkerton secret agents.. he Saved the Day.

:D :D :p :D

No problem here too if they do it legally......

Just wanted to add to this point a bit ...

My grandfather is here illegally. But he's Irish, hence, he's white. Nobody has ever given him shit about it.

Would you deport my grandfather? Would you march against him? He worked his ass off on off-shore oil rigs from the time he was 20 (when he came here) until he retired at 76 years old (that's 56 years) with 3 children, 8 grandchildren, and 14 great-grandchildren born in this country.

Is it the brown thing? I gotta know.

'sactly!

You've seen "A Day Without a Mexican" I take it? :D

Is that a indy movie? You have a site?

Oh yes and btw:

http://www.tshirthell.com/store/product.php?productid=418

You've seen "A Day Without a Mexican" I take it? :D

Actually I haven't. But I live in NYC. Even some chinese restaurants have mexican workers here, so I have a fair idea what it would be like if all the mexicans were sent home. (No more sandwiches :mad:).

Just wanted to add to this point a bit ...

My grandfather is here illegally. But he's Irish, hence, he's white. Nobody has ever given him shit about it.

Would you deport my grandfather? Would you march against him? He worked his ass off on off-shore oil rigs from the time he was 20 (when he came here) until he retired at 76 years old (that's 56 years) with 3 children, 8 grandchildren, and 14 great-grandchildren born in this country.

Is it the brown thing? I gotta know.

First off it is impossible to deport 12 million illegal aliens. Another solution needs to be found.

Second how is it you know that your grandfather was here illegally?

Third if someone is here illegally they do need to addressed on a case by case situation. There are several factors on how and why they are here.

Fourth to suggest a racist undercurrent is basically bullshit. I am one of the least racist people there is.

Actually I haven't.

Oh you must. Rent it today! Hilarious and true.

Second how is it you know that your grandfather was here illegally?


He never got a social security card and never registered with immigration.

I just found this out recently.

It has given me a whole new perspective on the "illegal immigration" problem.

Incidently, if you watch some of the news footage from the protest marches in Houston concerning Mexican nationalism and immigration, you'll see me stand there in protest and solidarity.

I do not believe that in this country an immigrant can be "illegal". Period.

Fourth to suggest a racist undercurrent is basically bullshit. I am one of the least racist people there is.

No no ... don't get me wrong. I believe you. You and I have talked in the past.

It is the immigration laws that are racist. Not you, personally.

Check the news stories I have heard of Colorado and Dallas mentioned today in the news. I am sure there may be more.
Those people are protesting againstinfair immigration restrictions, not for Mexican hegemony.

I am one of the least racist people there is.all racists say that..

other things the racists say: "But I have dozens of 'colored' friends".

BTW I am not saying you are (or aren't) racist..
I am simply reminding you that most racists use the same lines..

all racists say that..

other things the racists say: "But I have dozens of 'colored' friends".

BTW I am not saying you are (or aren't) racist..
I am simply reminding you that most racists use the same lines..


Hmm how about I am married to a black Moroccan woman. I bet they don't say that.:p

Those people are protesting againstinfair immigration restrictions, not for Mexican hegemony.


Unfair restrictions would mean doing something about illegals already here. Who is this unfair too?

No no ... don't get me wrong. I believe you. You and I have talked in the past.

It is the immigration laws that are racist. Not you, personally.
OK, the way you wrote it lead me to believe what I said.

Hmm how about I am married to a black Moroccan woman. I bet they don't say that.:pwell sometimes they say "I am a black Moroccan woman" :D :D :p :D ...

just kidding..
*issues an official certificate of "not-racist" in the name of Marrakech*

He never got a social security card and never registered with immigration.

I just found this out recently.

It has given me a whole new perspective on the "illegal immigration" problem.

Incidently, if you watch some of the news footage from the protest marches in Houston concerning Mexican nationalism and immigration, you'll see me stand there in protest and solidarity.

I do not believe that in this country an immigrant can be "illegal". Period.

You have every right to voice your opinion with them. As with your grandfather that is probably a story told 95% of the time with illegals. They contribute to America and make it great. But I personally want somone watching the door. Letting those 95% in and keeping the 5% trouble makers and the likes out.

well sometimes they say "I am a black Moroccan woman" :D :D :p :D ...

just kidding..
*issues an official certificate of "not-racist" in the name of Marrakech*

Thanks for the certificate. As long as it has the official OD2 sig than I'm good. Here is a pic of the wifey and myself in Morocco last year during her sisters wedding.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c179/KilliansPub/scan.jpg

I think I married up.

I think I married up.

Yah. Just a bit. ;)

OK, the way you wrote it lead me to believe what I said.

Mea Culpa. That wasn't my intention.

But I personally want somone watching the door. Letting those 95% in and keeping the 5% trouble makers and the likes out.

Unfortunately, we don't know who those people will be from the outset. We could be turning away wonderful, productive members of American society by just blanketing everyone under "illegal immigrant" statutes.

Thanks for the certificate. As long as it has the official OD2 sig than I'm good. Here is a pic of the wifey and myself in Morocco last year during her sisters wedding.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c179/KilliansPub/scan.jpg

I think I married up.Nice pic..

And.. Congrats, she is beautiful.

I think I married up.

You're cuter than I expected you to be. ;)

And your wife ... HOT!

You did awesome, bro. I want pics of your kids. Ya'll are gonna have some beauts.

The California independence movement would have grown with the gold rush if the US didnt grant statehood or territory status. I would almost be money on it.

The California Republic was proclaimed on June 14, 1846 when a group of thirty-three Americans captured the town of Sonoma and declared independence from Mexico. Shortly thereafter, U.S. Army Captain John C. Frémont arrived and took control of the group. The republic's first and only president was William B. Ide, whose term lasted twenty-five days.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_Flag_Republic (Wiki so be forewarned)

And the war was OVER by the time the gold rush really got underway (49'er and all that). But mainly it was a case of some Americans in the area decided that they would rather be a part of the US instead of stay a part of Mexico. A lot of books I have read says that part of this was the large ranches granted to various Mexican citizens that was covented by said Americans. Once the war was over, those land owners were stripped of ownership and the land went to... well, many of the Americans who wanted California to become part of the US. Actually the family of Fremont and Fremont himself spent years fighting for Alcatraz island and various parts of the Bay Area based on that very premeis.

IIRC he even ran for president in order to write a law to allow these land swaps to go through.

But anyway The Mexican American war was started by Mexico in my opinion. The situation was that Mexico was going to start a second war with Texas. The Mexican government said that if the US interfered than it would mean war. The US and Texas then negotiated statehood as a means of protection by the US of Texas. Therefore the war was on. So who started what? I would be on the side of Mexico instigating the war. Feel free to explain different.
No, the war was on when the US sent troops into a disputed area and started to build forts. According to the story, Mexico sent troops over and killed 11 Americans. Or, at least, that's what President Polk said, but he never did say where this happened or why and many historians now doubt that this actually occured or occured as it was stated.

A lot of it came from the idea of manafest desitniy, that the US should strech from coast to coast and having Mexico own a large chunk of the land that could be a part of that country rather spoilied it.

The US gained California, Nevada, Utah, and parts of Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and Wyoming. That's a large chunk of land.

snip
Didnt you see Zorro, the Californians all voted for California to join the US :D

Didnt you see Zorro, the Californians all voted for California to join the US :D
Sad to say, the last Zorro move I have seen compleatly was Zorro: The Gay Blade, which I'm not sure counts. ;)

And how did we get onto the subject of the Mexican-American War and Zorro anyway? :confused:

And how did we get onto the subject of the Mexican-American War and Zorro anyway? :confused:

Because Zorro was Chuck Norris before Chuck Norris was born. ;)

Because Zorro was Chuck Norris before Chuck Norris was born. ;)
Oh so THAT'S how it wor... oh, wait... no... no... that can't be true, the beard man, you've forgotten all about the beard!

You're cuter than I expected you to be. ;)

And your wife ... HOT!

You did awesome, bro. I want pics of your kids. Ya'll are gonna have some beauts.

This is our daughter with mom at about 3 months. We have a son too but little girls are much cuter.

http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c179/KilliansPub/?action=view&current=yasmine1.jpg

Wouldn't it be so much easier if we didn't have to worry about morals and ethics. 'Cause then we could just take a nuke to any problem we have and be done with it. So that's my solution to any problem out there...nuke 'em!

Or since they're already in California, we could just make the state a penal colony, move all the legal citizens out of California and then nuke it!

Wouldn't it be so much easier if we didn't have to worry about morals and ethics. 'Cause then we could just take a nuke to any problem we have and be done with it. So that's my solution to any problem out there...nuke 'em!

Or since they're already in California, we could just make the state a penal colony, move all the legal citizens out of California and then nuke it!

Hmm sounds like a quick a easy solution. Any other takers?;)

Considering the pictures I've been seeing over here show the groups waving both the Stars and Stripes AND the flag of Mexico, I don't really know what you're complaining about.


Indeed. On the local news I have seen video of protesters displaying and marching with Mexican flags. I have also seen video of protesters displaying and marching with American flags. That alone suggests to me that this supposed "Mexican nationalism" problem, well, isn't. Especially considering that studies have shown that Mexican-Americans hold allegiance to "American" values, like economic individualism and patriotism, at equal and even greater rates than Anglos (de la Garza, Will the Real Americans Please Stand Up: Anglo and Mexican-American Support of Core American Political Values, American Journal of Political Science, Vol 40, No. 2, May 1996) and that majorities within the greater Latino population, including Mexican-Americans, desire to naturalize and become U.S. citizens, although many are discouraged by the expense and confusing application process (DeSipio, 1996, Counting on the Latino Vote: Latinos as a New Electorate, University Press of Virginia).

Talk about "Mexican nationalism" seems like the typical political fear mongering to me, the sort of political fear mongering that the anti-immigration/immigrant sorts have historically relied on.

Hmm sounds like a quick a easy solution. Any other takers?;)
Damn you... internal conflict... not... wanting to harm... people warring with... native Nevadan... need to... make fun of... California... Typing like Shatner... ;) :p

Talk about "Mexican nationalism" seems like the typical political fear mongering to me, the sort of political fear mongering that the anti-immigration/immigrant sorts have historically relied on.

Go ahead and read through the link that I posted at the start of this post. You tell me that you don't see any Mexican nationalism in that expose of pictures and captions. I thought it was nice and clear. I know these individuals do not represent as a whole the Mexican people in the US. The fact is all those pictures and events took place in America which I find a problem.

Not sure if the link you are talking about goes to the same site I am thinking of, which is this (http://www.mexica-movement.org/granmarcha.htm).

Some quotes from the site.

One of the more negative parts of the march was when American flags were passed out to make sure the marchers were looked on as part of "America".

Good and bad. Great numbers of our people grew eventually to over half a million or more people. Bad in that the American flags were forced on our people by vendidos to make our protest more acceptable to the mainstream media. We should be allowed pride in our heritage. Mexican and "Central American" people are one people, along with all Indigenous people of this continent.

Go ahead and read through the link that I posted at the start of this post. You tell me that you don't see any Mexican nationalism in that expose of pictures and captions. I thought it was nice and clear. I know these individuals do not represent as a whole the Mexican people in the US. The fact is all those pictures and events took place in America which I find a problem.


Michelle Malkin has obvious political biases.
Peaceful political protest is the exercise of the freedom of speech. I, for one, am damn proud that such occurs in my country.
This characterization of the protests as being "pro-illegal immigration" is a gross oversimplification and a politically motovated strawman; such characterization completely disregards the fact that the Mexican-American community has a history of opposing immigration, legal or otherwise, while encouraging nationalization, citizenship, and assimilation. Where the Mexican-American community has opposed American immigration law, their protest was motovated by concern for the civil rights of immigrant and U.S. citizen alike -- see also anti-immigration and repatriation efforts that have resulted in the fracture of the families made up of immigrants and U.S. citizens, as well as the deportation of U.S. citizens. (Gutierrez, 1995, Walls and Mirrors: Mexican Americans, Mexican Immigrants, and the Politics of Ethnicity, University of California Press). This "pro-illegal immigration" strawman simply ignores the historical impact of anti-immigration legislation and the fears that current policy and political rhetoric creates in the citizen community.
While identification with Mexico may help motovate and encourage cohesion of the protesters in question, the fact of the matter is that there is plenty of evidence that identification with the United States also serves a similar purpose (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10665597&postcount=128).
Flying the flag upside down is not only peaceful political protest, but it is also a signal of distress. Considering what passes for discussion concerning the issue of immigration, I am inclined to agree with the sentiment.


Edit:

Another thing concerning this line:


I know these individuals do not represent as a whole the Mexican people in the US.


How many of these "Mexican people" are U.S. citizens? Shouldn't such individuals be refered to as "American people?" There is (and has been) a tendency to lump Mexican immigrants and U.S. citizens of Mexican descent into the same group. This tendency leads to the conclusion that protesting U.S. citizens must necessarily and completely support the immigrant population, thus leading to strawmen like "pro-illegal immigration."

Anyone else alarmed at American nationalism inside the US?

Anyone else alarmed at American nationalism inside the US?

Really? You have any good large scale examples? Other than a few fringe groups that consist of a handful of people on the FBI watch list.

Anyone else alarmed at Mexican nationalism inside the US?
Yo! Marrakech, baby! Wuzzzuppp? Get laid yet? :D

I'm not alarmed at all about this. Just merge the two countries. Where's the problem? :D

Michelle Malkin has obvious political biases.
Peaceful political protest is the exercise of the freedom of speech. I, for one, am damn proud that such occurs in my country.
This characterization of the protests as being "pro-illegal immigration" is a gross oversimplification and a politically motovated strawman; such characterization completely disregards the fact that the Mexican-American community has a history of opposing immigration, legal or otherwise, while encouraging nationalization, citizenship, and assimilation. Where the Mexican-American community has opposed American immigration law, their protest was motovated by concern for the civil rights of immigrant and U.S. citizen alike -- see also anti-immigration and repatriation efforts that have resulted in the fracture of the families made up of immigrants and U.S. citizens, as well as the deportation of U.S. citizens. (Gutierrez, 1995, Walls and Mirrors: Mexican Americans, Mexican Immigrants, and the Politics of Ethnicity, University of California Press). This "pro-illegal immigration" strawman simply ignores the historical impact of anti-immigration legislation and the fears that current policy and political rhetoric creates in the citizen community.
While identification with Mexico may help motovate and encourage cohesion of the protesters in question, the fact of the matter is that there is plenty of evidence that identification with the United States also serves a similar purpose (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10665597&postcount=128).
Flying the flag upside down is not only peaceful political protest, but it is also a signal of distress. Considering what passes for discussion concerning the issue of immigration, I am inclined to agree with the sentiment.


Edit:

Another thing concerning this line:



How many of these "Mexican people" are U.S. citizens? Shouldn't such individuals be refered to as "American people?" There is (and has been) a tendency to lump Mexican immigrants and U.S. citizens of Mexican descent into the same group. This tendency leads to the conclusion that protesting U.S. citizens must necessarily and completely support the immigrant population, thus leading to strawmen like "pro-illegal immigration."

I dont disagree with the point that michelle malkin is biased. We all are in our own ways for our own reasons. Fact is you can't dispute what the pictures say. I know she didn't invent those on her own. The captions are about accurate too.
Now when a supposed US citizen of Mexican orgin starts holding signs saying this is "Our" land. Holding signs that say Los Angeles, Mexico and waving Mexican flags than I say they are not acting American wouldn't you? Now granted there were alot of Americans of Mexican background waving "American" flags. I have 0 problem with Americans protesting as Americans. Hell it is our god given right to protest. When the line is crossed and it seems to me that a group of people want to remain loyal to there former nation. All the while reaping the benefits of being an American like the rest of us. This is where my problem with the whole situation is.

Yo! Marrakech, baby! Wuzzzuppp? Get laid yet? :D

I'm not alarmed at all about this. Just merge the two countries. Where's the problem? :D


First response would be none of your business. :D

Second yes I agree that serious discussion should be made for a joint union. I would even hold it with Canada if a mutual agreement could be met with all of us.

First response would be none of your business. :D

Second yes I agree that serious discussion should be made for a joint union. I would even hold it with Canada if a mutual agreement could be met with all of us.
LMAO! GOOD answer! :D

Cheers for the NAU!!! NAU NOW! :D

Second yes I agree that serious discussion should be made for a joint union. I would even hold it with Canada if a mutual agreement could be met with all of us.
I think it'll happen. Too bad it won't be any time soon. Perhaps a loose confederation will form first and then move towards a stronger union.

I think it'll happen. Too bad it won't be any time soon. Perhaps a loose confederation will form first and then move towards a stronger union.
Isn't that basically what NAFTA was supposed to be the first step toward? That's how the EU started after all, with the European Common Market (actually, an earlier trade agreement, but I can't remember the name of it).

Isn't that basically what NAFTA was supposed to be the first step toward? That's how the EU started after all, with the European Common Market (actually, an earlier trade agreement, but I can't remember the name of it).
NAFTA could be a first step, but not necessarily. Europe also had the pressure from competing blocks to integrate ever closer, but North America may not go through the same.

Don't be fooled by our Prime-Minister-of-the-moment; no way in Hell would Canadians agree to closer ties to the United States.

NAFTA could be a first step, but not necessarily. Europe also had the pressure from competing blocks to integrate ever closer, but North America may not go through the same.
I think that if the WTO hadn't come into being, we might be closer to it, because the pressure to compete as a continental bloc would have increased. The WTO relieved some of that pressure. I'm not convinced that's a good thing, by the way.

Don't be fooled by our Prime-Minister-of-the-moment; no way in Hell would Canadians agree to closer ties to the United States.

Canada and the United States are tied together like siamese twins. Really the same with Mexico too. You really think Canada is so seperate eh? I also believe you probably don't speak for everyone either.

Fact is you can't dispute what the pictures say.


I don't dispute that the protesters take pride in their nationalities or ancestry. What I dispute is that doing so represents any kind of threat or problem. Literature and studies in the social and political sciences, which I have already referenced in previous posts, demonstrates that the Mexican-American and greater Latino communities also take pride in, and support values associated with, the United States.

So what if the protesters take pride in Mexico and the Mexican flag? They would also seem to take pride in the United States and its flag as well.


Now when a supposed US citizen of Mexican orgin starts holding signs saying this is "Our" land. Holding signs that say Los Angeles, Mexico and waving Mexican flags than I say they are not acting American wouldn't you?


Activities like waving flags and holding signs do not harm me in any way that I can see, and as such I am not inclined to see them as a threat. My country guarantees the right of peaceful protesters to express whatever speech they want.


When the line is crossed and it seems to me that a group of people want to remain loyal to there former nation. All the while reaping the benefits of being an American like the rest of us. This is where my problem with the whole situation is.

Are the protesters claiming allegiance to Mexico, or does the Mexican flag simply serve as a convienient and well recognized symbol that can be used to identify and solidify support around a political cause or demand in the United States? Symbols like flags can be imbued with whatever meaning that those who utilize it want it to have.

And so what if loyalties remain to former areas of residence? Immigrants have left behind family, friends, and memories; are they supposed to simply abandon all of these if they decide to move to another country?

I think that one of the things many people including myself are objecting to (when they look at the pictures of the protests), is the fact that someone placed a Mexican flag atop a flagpole, then placed an upside down US flag underneath it at a US school (an upside down flag indicates distress). IMO, the Mexican flag should not be flown at a US school, and people in the US shouldn't dis-respect the US flag by intentionally flying it upside down when there is no distress.

people in the US shouldn't dis-respect the US flag by intentionally flying it upside down when there is no distress.

facing a law creating at least 10 million new felons isn't distress? and the creeping nativism and immigrant bashing and official harassement isn't distress?

Anyone else alarmed at Mexican nationalism inside the US?

Nope :p

facing a law creating at least 10 million new felons isn't distress? and the creeping nativism and immigrant bashing and official harassement isn't distress?

No, it isn't distress (distress would be something like everyone in the school being held hostage). Anyone here illegally is already a criminal (maybe not a felon, but a criminal none-the-less). If they want to live in the US, they should go through the proper channels and immigrate legally (I have no problem with anyone who is here legally).

I'm not sure what you mean by official harrassment, though. Is that anything like when someone breaks the law, and law enforcement "harrasses" them for it? :D

Isn't that basically what NAFTA was supposed to be the first step toward? That's how the EU started after all, with the European Common Market (actually, an earlier trade agreement, but I can't remember the name of it).

The EU was started by the ECSC (European Coal and Steel Community)

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We should keep em out! This is America, we speak English not Mexican

Don't Mexicans speak Spanish? Tit.

I'm more alarmed by naitionalism in general in the US.

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I like Lincoln in a sombrero.

I like Lincoln in a sombrero.
We should put all the presidents on our currency in funny hats. Ben Franklin too. He could wear a propeller beenie.

I think it's pretty ridiculous, myself...

there have been walk outs to protest the bill at my school and half of the people (at least) have absolutely no idea what they're protesting, anyways.

This is the United States, and yes, California did once belong to Mexico but that was while back.

If you're here legally, that's fine, but if you're here illegally, it's fucking illegal and a crime.

It speaks for itself; there is nothing wrong with the proposed bill, in my opinion.

However, there should be some sort of workers' program.

Havent been on the boards in awhile so do not know if these pictures and comments have already been posted. As I watch these pro-illegal alien marches throughout our border states. Does anyone else see this as a red flag? I know congress is trying to put together a semi-amnesty bill. But I find that the actions of some of the Mexicans inside the US as apalling. In some cases it's led to what I would term a start of new "problem" with our neighbor to the south. Here is a link to an interesting page highlighting some of the events that have taken place lately. I know that the majority of these are students. But I do know that they carry the sentiment of alot of the parents. I find the picture of the Mexican flag with the American flag upside down fitting on this occasion. A national sign of distress. If this isnt that I'm not sure what is. So what do we do? I know for one a 12 million strong invasion of illegal aliens is hard to thwart.


http://www.michellemalkin.com/

Really I am more worried about American Nationalism.

I think the major uproar is not over the 11 million or so that are here, it is the fact that if you grant US citizenship to those 11 million, they have the right to bring their 10 member family here to live with them, which poses a big threat to our welfare system and Medicaid system. Member, the major people some companies want to hire illegals is that they work for less wages, which in turn means they will be below the poverty level.
What welfare system?:D

:rolleyes: if they're legal, its protesting.

if they're illegal, its disturbing.

how do people who come here illegally expect to be protected by our laws?
Yeah cos I mean. Terrorist aren't protected by law or anything...

But crime, poverty, pollution, and corruption werent.
They aren't erdicated from the US either Einstien. I so spelt einstein incorrectly there.

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Kill the FUCKing wet-backs that try to come over the boarder!:sniper: