NationStates Jolt Archive

So let's just say God exists, okay, He does.

Now, let's say you are an Athiest or Agnostic or you really weren't into your religion and you did whatever you wanted to do (that didn't break man-made laws).

Now let's say you die. And you find out God exists, and God then lists all the sins you commited against (Pick onereligion - Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc) and then God demands for an explanation, what do you say?

Do you beg for forgiveness or shake off the fact that God says you will suffer in Hell eternally?

I asked a friend a similar question, who is an Athiest, and I asked him that what would he tell God if God demanded for an explanation for him watching pornography. His response was similar to, "I'd tell God that the Pornography Industry [including Human Trafficking] was the fourth largest Industry in the World, and by me watching it, I made it the third."

I was just shocked.

So, what would you all do?

What would I do?

I'd tell him that my life is none of his fucking business, no matter what plane of existence I'm on.

Tell it to fuck off.

Tell it to fuck off.

i was thinking something along those lines as well...

I would argue that as I did not believe in him, the mere fact of his non-existance would exemplify my having to explain myself.

After all, if he does exists, he created Noel edmonds - who is he to judge ANYONE?!

Tell it to fuck off.
That's a bit of a bizarre attitude - in the hypothetical situation where God conclusively exists, what would you gain from doing that?

So let's just say God exists, okay, He does.

Now, let's say you are an Athiest or Agnostic or you really weren't into your religion and you did whatever you wanted to do (that didn't break man-made laws).

Now let's say you die. And you find out God exists, and God then lists all the sins you commited against (Pick onereligion - Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc) and then God demands for an explanation, what do you say?

Do you beg for forgiveness or shake off the fact that God says you will suffer in Hell eternally?

I asked a friend a similar question, who is an Athiest, and I asked him that what would he tell God if God demanded for an explanation for him watching pornography. His response was similar to, "I'd tell God that the Pornography Industry [including Human Trafficking] was the fourth largest Industry in the World, and by me watching it, I made it the third."

I was just shocked.

So, what would you all do?
The same thing you'd do if you found out when you died that there is no God besides Allah and that Muhamed is his prophet! :p

I would say

"If you're so concernced with my sins committed as a human, why don't you go down to earth and fix everything that went wrong to your own satisfaction."

That's a bit of a bizarre attitude - in the hypothetical situation where God conclusively exists, what would you gain from doing that?

Exactly what I was thinking.

That's a bit of a bizarre attitude - in the hypothetical situation where God conclusively exists, what would you gain from doing that?

Confidence?

That's a bit of a bizarre attitude - in the hypothetical situation where God conclusively exists, what would you gain from doing that?

What would I lose? Some douche of a deity's opportunity for more sadism?

The same thing you'd do if you found out when you died that there is no God besides Allah and that Muhamed is his prophet! :p

:p

Well, I would be happy if that was true -- heh maybe uber-happy.

But my question asks what if you were an Athiest/Agnostic/Weren't into your religion.

Tell it to fuck off.
Indeed. What right is it of his to tell us what to do?

Explain to him why Pascal's wager is wrong and ask how the fuck was I to choose the right religion out of them all. And if he sends me to hell, I'll gladly go there happy in the fact that I rejected an vengefull, angry and hands-off god that expect me to believe in him when he doesn't show himself.

What would I lose? Some douche of a deity's opportunity for more sadism?

So you would want to go to Hell (as it states in the question)?

What would I lose? Some douche of a deity's opportunity for more sadism?
I don't know really, I'm a universalist so I would say you'd lose nothing at all. :p

But, to take the hypothesis a little further - say God exists and there is a Hell - why throw yourself into it?

I would list several people representative of the fundamentalist/literalist arm of God's chosen religion, and then ask God whether these people went/would go to Heaven or Hell.

If God says that the fundamentalists went/are going to Heaven, then I will simply ask him whether He wants me to go to physical Hell or psychological Hell. If God says that the fundamentalists go to Hell, then He is just and I will allow Him to make His proper decision concerning my fate.

Explain to him why Pascal's wager is wrong and ask how the fuck was I to choose the right religion out of them all. And if he sends me to hell, I'll gladly go there happy in the fact that I rejected an vengefull, angry and hands-off god that expect me to believe in him when he doesn't show himself.

But you do realize the only perspective of Hell you see is through Words (Qu'ran, Bible, etc), it'll be figuratively eternally worse to actually see Hell and feel how it is to be in it.

That's a bit of a bizarre attitude - in the hypothetical situation where God conclusively exists, what would you gain from doing that?

not bizarre at all. why should i give god an explination? if it had a problem with my life, it could float down on a cloud and let me know...

I find the whole "Hell is terrible" thing rather funny.

I mean, if Satan is god's arch enemy, why would he abuse those who are in his domain? I mean, it would be logical for him to, you know, treat them kindly, because "God" wouldn't.

That, and raise an army to fight the bastard.

I think i would ask him why he made the wiring in my head so messed up that i couldn't believe in him. I really would have an easeir time believing elvis and the loch ness monster are cruizing the 7 11 in my town then there being a god. Now why would god make it impossible for my mind to believe in him. Did he just want to set me up to fail?? that seems mean! No meaner than cancer but still mean.

But you do realize the only perspective of Hell you see is through Words (Qu'ran, Bible, etc), it'll be figuratively eternally worse to actually see Hell and feel how it is to be in it.

hell is described as being seperated from god. how is that any different from earth? i dont see him/it walking around anywhere...

hell is described as being seperated from god. how is that any different from earth? i dont see him/it walking around anywhere...
Apparently it is complete separation. Hell is also seen as personal, and not some pit of fire, a form of complete isolation and desolace.

So, what would you all do?

I'd say, "Ain't free will a bitch?" then give him a look of pity, cluck my tongue, and ask the directions to Hell so I can go party with Jim Morrison.

But you do realize the only perspective of Hell you see is through Words (Qu'ran, Bible, etc), it'll be figuratively eternally worse to actually see Hell and feel how it is to be in it.
If god is so vindictive as to deny me a place in heaven on such trivial issues as "you slept with a woman before being married" and I haven't done major wrong like murder, then I want no part of this god's heaven.

I'd rather burn for all eternity and be faithfull to my code of moral than recant what I felt was right in the hope of being granted a place in a monster's heaven like that god.

So you would want to go to Hell (as it states in the question)?

Rather that then spend an eternity with such an asshole of a deity. At least Satan is decent.

I'd explain to god that in the absence of any hard evidence of his existence and in the absence of any one particular set of laws that I was sure he wanted me to follow, I lived my life the best I could, and tried to make ammends for my mistakes or at least learn from them.

Then I'd ask to be sent to hell because I'm pretty sure Lucifer isn't enough of a dickhead to punish people for breaking laws that they can't even be sure existed in the first place.

I think I'd just steal the old Steve Martin line:
"I forgot."

Rather that then spend an eternity with such an asshole of a deity. At least Satan is decent.

Damn right!

We'll eat those goddamn fucking apples no matter what some dickhead tells us!

Rather that then spend an eternity with such an asshole of a deity. At least Satan is decent.
And decadent. :)

I'd tell him that the lack of evidence of his existance made me skeptical that such a being is real, and that if he wants to send me to Hell for doing absolutely nothing worthy of such a punishment so be it.

:p

Well, I would be happy if that was true -- heh maybe uber-happy.

But my question asks what if you were an Athiest/Agnostic/Weren't into your religion.
I understand but its the same thing. Jesus won't look at an Atheist any differently than a Muslim. Allah will treat Christians the same as Jews. It doesn't matter, its just a multiple choice test. Pick th wrong answer and you go to Hell. :)

At least if you're an atheist or agnostic you don't waste the only life you may have on penance for ridiculous sins.

Then I'd ask to be sent to hell because I'm pretty sure Lucifer isn't enough of a dickhead to punish people for breaking laws that they can't even be sure existed in the first place.
Traditionally, Lucifer doesn't punish people. The mere fact that you are banished out of God's sight and relegated to spend an eternity surrounded by the worst of the world (murderers, rapists, thieves, line-cutters, the current cast of Saturday Night Live, etc) is supposed to be sufficient punishment. (Alternately, there is no Hell, and those not in God's care simply cease when they die)
Those silly Medieval Catholics (and the silly Muslims-period) decided that the faith needed to be "sexed-up" with some torture and brimstone because the average peasant wasn't good at thinking about immaterial things (like how much getting snubbed by the divine would suck) as well as they are at thinking about demons raping your eye sockets with a soldering iron.

Damn right!

We'll eat those goddamn fucking apples no matter what some dickhead tells us!

That's the most ironic thing about the Abrahamic religions - God is not the bringer of knowledge, Satan is.

Is there not just a hint of arrogance in rejecting God because you think you know what he believes? Much of what is being said on here about what He is like actually comes from the (funda)mentalists.

Wouldn't a better thing be to ask him about these issues you have, before making a judgement?

Wouldn't a better thing be to ask him about these issues you have, before making a judgement?

So it can go: "But, you know, you still didn't believe in my narcissistic ass, so neener!"? No, it can fuck off.

Is there not just a hint of arrogance in rejecting God because you think you know what he believes? Much of what is being said on here about what He is like actually comes from the (funda)mentalists.

Wouldn't a better thing be to ask him about these issues you have, before making a judgement?

why cant god answer our questions right now? why do we have to wait until we are dead for god to open his/its mouth?

So it can go: "But, you know, you still didn't believe in my narcissistic ass, so neener!"? No, it can fuck off.
But why would God do that? Why would an immortal God create people the way they are and then punish them for being that way? Why would an all powerful, all knowing God really care if you believed in him in this life?

I hope you wouldn't make a judgement on a person soley because of what someone else told you - so why do it for God?

Wouldn't a better thing be to ask him about these issues you have, before making a judgement?
The assumption is that he has already passed judgement, and his judgement is in line with the Fallwell-thing, the President of Iran, or one of the crazy Before Christ (Common Era is for loozers) Jews who got off on defiling their own temples with dead Romans.

why cant god answer our questions right now? why do we have to wait until we are dead for god to open his mouth?
Why are you so impatient?

So God exists as a vengeful individual person?

I'm doing a counter-Jesus on him.

Silence, unless certain accusations about my identity are levelled at me to which I can respond with a forboding prophecy concerning the eventual destruction of the Kingdom.

Heck, I don't know if it's true. I just want to see the effect it has.

That's a bit of a bizarre attitude - in the hypothetical situation where God conclusively exists, what would you gain from doing that?


A free ticket to hell, with people who didn't squander their lives being tightasses.

I'm with Fass on this one, Piss off.

Why are you so impatient?

because life is short...

But why would God do that? Why would an immortal God create people the way they are and then punish them for being that way? Why would an all powerful, all knowing God really care if you believed in him in this life?

Because it's an asshole.

I hope you wouldn't make a judgement on a person soley because of what someone else told you - so why do it for God?

Why'd it be silent? Why'd it just sit around an watch African babies die of starvation and do nothing? Please. If it exists, it needs a kick in the nuts.

I'd ask for another go at the game of life.

Why'd it be silent? Why'd it just sit around an watch African babies die of starvation and do nothing? Please. If it exists, it needs a kick in the nuts.
I don't know the answers to these questions. Honestly, I don't, and I don't claim to. Which is why asking them makes them all the more important. Perhaps, if you don't like the answer, you can tell him to sod off, but knowledge should always come before action.

Why'd it be silent? Why'd it just sit around an watch African babies die of starvation and do nothing? Please. If it exists, it needs a kick in the nuts.

True, but we're also going on the basis that a sole God would be omni-potent, what if.. what if its just some lucky mortal?


/looks pointedly at Fiddlebottoms
//Joking, or am I?

A free ticket to hell, with people who didn't squander their lives being tightasses.

I'm with Fass on this one, Piss off.
Thank you for that informed, helpful and appropriate contribution to this discussion.

Why'd it be silent? Why'd it just sit around an watch African babies die of starvation and do nothing? Please. If it exists, it needs a kick in the nuts.

exactly...

I don't know the answers to these questions. Honestly, I don't, and I don't claim to. Which is why asking them makes them all the more important. Perhaps, if you don't like the answer, you can tell him to sod off, but knowledge should always come before action.

I already know why, because it's a douche - why else have a hell?

I don't know the answers to these questions. Honestly, I don't, and I don't claim to. Which is why asking them makes them all the more important. Perhaps, if you don't like the answer, you can tell him to sod off, but knowledge should always come before action.
I've asked. The answer I received is incompatible with the existence of the afterlife. Therefore, for the purposes of this exercise, I'm disregarding that solution. I'm guessing that others will do the same.

I don't know the answers to these questions. Honestly, I don't, and I don't claim to. Which is why asking them makes them all the more important. Perhaps, if you don't like the answer, you can tell him to sod off, but knowledge should always come before action.

i think gods lack of response to human outcry is a good enough reason to draw a conclusion that god is either an asshole or doesnt exist at all...

I don't know the answers to these questions. Honestly, I don't, and I don't claim to. Which is why asking them makes them all the more important. Perhaps, if you don't like the answer, you can tell him to sod off, but knowledge should always come before action.
I know the answer. God don't care about black folks.

I already know why, because it's a douche - why else have a hell?
Depends how you mean hell. If it's all fire and demons then you've a valid point. If it is simply a place without God, then from what you're saying you seek this anyway; how is it wrong on his part to provide you with it?

I've asked. The answer I received is incompatible with the existence of the afterlife. Therefore, for the purposes of this exercise, I'm disregarding that solution. I'm guessing that others will do the same.
I'm not sure what you mean here.

I'd probably hit the bastard.

i think gods lack of response to human outcry is a good enough reason to draw a conclusion that god is either an asshole or doesnt exist at all...
Why?

I know the answer. God don't care about black folks.
:rolleyes:

I'd probably hit the bastard.

thats the spirit! :D

Depends how you mean hell. If it's all fire and demons then you've a valid point. If it is simply a place without God, then from what you're saying you seek this anyway; how is it wrong on his part to provide you with it?

An omniscient deity already knows who's going there. So it's pointless. It's just created a hell it knows it will send you to. No matter what. It already knows everything. It's already condemned you to hell. So, it's just a sadistic douche.

:rolleyes:
I can prove it. Bush is god's best pal. Best pals have lots of stuff in common. Kanye West told us that Bush don't care about black folks, therefore it's likely that god don't care about black folks either.

Why?

becuase god does not have to keep himself hidden from his own creation...

Why'd it be silent? Why'd it just sit around an watch African babies die of starvation and do nothing? Please. If it exists, it needs a kick in the nuts.
Because, from the angle of the Divine, humans are nothing. Do you wander around fields, saving every ant, beetle and bird that looks like it needs it? Have you ever set a rat trap?
What makes you think that we (as increbily limited mortals) are worth the slightest consideration on the part of the Infinite immortal?

An omniscient deity already knows who's going there. So it's pointless. It's just created a hell it knows it will send you to. No matter what. It already knows everything. It's already condemned you to hell. So, it's just a sadistic douche.
You didn't answer my point about the nature of hell. If it is simply 'without God' then this is what you wanted; hardly sadistic.

Because, from the angle of the Divine, humans are nothing. Do you wander around fields, saving every ant, beetle and bird that looks like it needs it? Have you ever set a rat trap?
What makes you think that we (as increbily limited mortals) are worth the slightest consideration on the part of the Infinite immortal?

Then why have a "hell and heaven" for us? Why care if we believe in it and care whatever we do?

Because, from the angle of the Divine, humans are nothing. Do you wander around fields, saving every ant, beetle and bird that looks like it needs it? Have you ever set a rat trap?
What makes you think that we (as increbily limited mortals) are worth the slightest consideration on the part of the Infinite immortal?

maybe because god made us in "his image"?

Why?

Would you qualify someone with the power to stop death, in a gruesome painful fashion, a benevolent god or a prick?

What makes you think that we (as increbily limited mortals) are worth the slightest consideration on the part of the Infinite immortal?
All the "God loves you" crap in the Bible?

You didn't answer my point about the nature of hell. If it is simply 'without God' then this is what you wanted; hardly sadistic.

It is. It already knows you're going there, and still has you live to have you go there. It shows its glory and "goodness" and that other shit to you, and then it takes it away, just like it's always known it would. Because it's a butt wipe.

becuase god does not have to keep himself hidden from his own creation...
You'd prefer him to be interfering in your life? You'd prefer to have someone else make the decisions for you?

You cry 'starving babies in Africa!' but you forget that it is a crime created by man, not God. To say 'well he should stop it then!' is equivelent to a thief complaining it's the homeowners fault they were robbed for leaving the door open.

It is. It already knows you're going there, and still has you live to have you go there. It shows its glory and "goodness" and that other shit to you, and then it takes it away, just like it's always known it would. Because it's a butt wipe.
Why are you so convinced you are going to hell? You have done nothing to make me think you would, so why do you think God would think that?

*Silly questions*
Ever keep an ant farm? Ever play the Sims?
All the "God loves you" crap in the Bible?
It is only natural that, as humans, we would try and rationalize things on a Human-centric level, and would have a hard time coming to grips with the realization that, in a Universe that contains an infinite being, we are laughably insignifigant.

You'd prefer him to be interfering in your life? You'd prefer to have someone else make the decisions for you?

You cry 'starving babies in Africa!' but you forget that it is a crime created by man, not God. To say 'well he should stop it then!' is equivelent to a thief complaining it's the homeowners fault they were robbed for leaving the door open.

not interfering, just a part of.

i agree that a lot of evils in todays world are man made. but still, could god not drop off some food for the hungry? cure diseases? what about saving people from being raped? wouldnt you say that would be a good time for god to step in and save someone?

Why are you so convinced you are going to hell? You have done nothing to make me think you would, so why do you think God would think that?

I don't give a crap if I'm going to heaven or hell. It's just as shitty a thing to do wherever it is that it sends you - it already knows.

I don't give a crap if I'm going to heaven or hell. It's just as shitty a thing to do wherever it is that it sends you - it already knows.
What if it were not omniscient? At least not in the sense of knowing the future.

not interfering, just a part of.

i agree that a lot of evils in todays world are man made. but still, could god not drop off some food for the hungry? cure diseases? what about saving people from being raped? wouldnt you say that would be a good time for god to step in and save someone?
But the Christian response is, of course, that he can be a part of your life if you want him to be. I feel he is a part of mine.

Again, God dropping off food parcels? How about man drops some off first? We have created this world in which we live, and I think that we should take responsibility for fixing it.

What if it were not omniscient? At least not in the sense of knowing the future.

Then it would not be "God." And it can thus still fuck off.

Then it would not be "God." And it can thus still fuck off.
It would not fit that strict definition of God, no. Then again, omniscience could be seen as an extension of omnipresence, and not divination of the future. In such a case?

It is only natural that, as humans, we would try and rationalize things on a Human-centric level, and would have a hard time coming to grips with the realization that, in a Universe that contains an infinite being, we are laughably insignifigant.

If we're so unimportant to this hypothetical god, why did it send its "only son" to die?

I don't give a crap if I'm going to heaven or hell. It's just as shitty a thing to do wherever it is that it sends you - it already knows.
Well, as I said originally, I don't believe that God would send you to hell. It is precisely for all the reasons you have given here that I believe that. To be perfectly honest, any God that does do that, I have no desire to know.

I honestly believe that you will be in heaven, whether you dismiss me as a religious crackpot for believing that or not. If you're right, I've lost nothing by living a life of faith. If I'm right - well, I'll buy you a drink in the celestial bar.

Personally I'd ask god to prove that he believes/believed in me. Knowing I exist(ed) does not mean that he believes/d in me. If I knew god existed, why would I bother believing in him? Similarly, if he knows I exist, why would he bother to believe in me? I'd just live a good life to the best of my abilities, and deal with the outcome when I die.

Alternatively, I'd do what many others here would apparently do, and tell god where he can shove his heaven and hell idea.

It would not fit that strict definition of God, no.

That is the only definition of capitalised "God."

Then again, omniscience could be seen as an extension of omnipresence, and not divination of the future. In such a case?

Omniscience is knowing everything. If there's something it doesn't know, like the future, it's not omniscient. And can still fuck off.

If we're so unimportant to this hypothetical god, why did it send its "only son" to die?
He didn't. Allah is impotent, and though he may speak through prophets on occassion, that's just how he rolls and indicates no parental feelings whatsoever.

So let's just say God exists, okay, He does.

Now, let's say you are an Athiest or Agnostic or you really weren't into your religion and you did whatever you wanted to do (that didn't break man-made laws).

Now let's say you die. And you find out God exists, and God then lists all the sins you commited against (Pick onereligion - Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc) and then God demands for an explanation, what do you say?

Do you beg for forgiveness or shake off the fact that God says you will suffer in Hell eternally?

I asked a friend a similar question, who is an Athiest, and I asked him that what would he tell God if God demanded for an explanation for him watching pornography. His response was similar to, "I'd tell God that the Pornography Industry [including Human Trafficking] was the fourth largest Industry in the World, and by me watching it, I made it the third."

I was just shocked.

So, what would you all do?

I would humbly ask him to explain, before I was sentanced, the free will paradox and determinism. Then I would ask why he created sin at all, as sin as defined often in Christianity as separation from God, so that the creation of any "other" would neccesarily create sin. Then I would ask why he decided the wages of sin are death and why couldn't I just pay a fine or something. Then I would ask why he defines "death" as everlasting torment, instead of simply being able to not exist like before one was born. Then I would ask why avowing his son exists could get one off the hook. I would ask why Jesus even had to "die for our sins", if God can do whatever he wants, why not tap dance away our sins, instead of "dying", where dying doesn't mean really dying but means turning into a ghost. After all this, I would ask if it was fair to judge people who are ignorant of such information as he provided me.

Why are you so convinced you are going to hell? You have done nothing to make me think you would, so why do you think God would think that?

The point is God already knows the moment you're conceived whether you're going to heaven or hell, yet he still lets you live out your life. If he already knows you're going to hell but he lets you live your life with the hope of maybe going to heaven, that's sick.

Well, as I said originally, I don't believe that God would send you to hell. It is precisely for all the reasons you have given here that I believe that. To be perfectly honest, any God that does do that, I have no desire to know.

As I said in another thread: The self-delusion one must have, nay, yearn for as a religious person.

I honestly believe that you will be in heaven, whether you dismiss me as a religious crackpot for believing that or not. If you're right, I've lost nothing by living a life of faith. If I'm right - well, I'll buy you a drink in the celestial bar.

Pascal's wager is a load of bull.

He didn't. Allah is impotent, and though he may speak through prophets on occassion, that's just how he rolls and indicates no parental feelings whatsoever.
I would have thought it would have been obvious even to you which god I was referring to.

But the Christian response is, of course, that he can be a part of your life if you want him to be. I feel he is a part of mine.

Again, God dropping off food parcels? How about man drops some off first? We have created this world in which we live, and I think that we should take responsibility for fixing it.

i was a christian for most of my life. but thats off topic discussion.

how does man, a fallible creature with limit resources, provide enough food, water, clothing, ect to other humans? what would it take for god to help out? he doesnt have to make everything perfectly lovely and happy. maybe he can just provide for the needs of his creation that he seems to have neglected...

That is the only definition of capitalised "God."

Omniscience is knowing everything. If there's something it doesn't know, like the future, it's not omniscient. And can still fuck off.
If you're sticking to that strict definition, then I'd have to agree.

I'm not sure what you mean here.
Quite simple. As a result of my search, I believe I've uncovered God's true nature; or, at least, a convincing explanation for how God could conceivably be. That nature renders conventional ideas of a heaven and hell or a post-life judgement utterly incompatible with God him/her/itself. From deeper analysis of this idea and consultation with the God I have found, I've learned a lot about why things would be the way they are if it were so.

However, since in this exercise we have to believe God is an omnipotent individual person that exists in a plane of existence outside of reality that mankind can enter on death (that is, we go to heaven and answer for our sins to God himself), the answers that my search has uncovered aren't valid in context. While I'm convinced that heaven as you're describing it can't possibly exist, its existence would require me to throw aside my own faith and with it any knowledge I have gained from it.

Basically, the answers I get now don't hold in the context of the existence of heaven. Therefore, I need to answer the question of what I'd do in heaven with this fact in mind. And believe me, it's not easy. I think I genuinely would do something like I said, in part due to the sheer disillusionment and disbelief that this is how things actually work.

As I said in another: The self-delusion one must have, nay, yearn for as a religious person.
I'm not self-deluded, I assure you. You are so dismissive of faith that you do not even consider the possibility that there are many good, honest and intellegent people who live their lives by it. It's so easy to hide behind easy quips like "why does he do this if he's so good?" and concentrate on the extremists views to back up your opinion. But those same extremists are, I believe, going to have the most explaining to do after this life, for they are the ones who have judged and condemned when they have no place to.

Pascal's wager is a load of bull.
I am not a gambling man. My faith has brought me wonderful things, and I do not have it for the sake of 'hedging my bets.' Even if my belief in God is proved to be baseless, the belief has brought me more than its absence.

i was a christian for most of my life. but thats off topic discussion.

how does man, a fallible creature with limit resources, provide enough food, water, clothing, ect to other humans? what would it take for god to help out? he doesnt have to make everything perfectly lovely and happy. maybe he can just provide for the needs of his creation that he seems to have neglected...
African poverty has been caused by centuries of human corruption, greed and general evilness towards other men. There are plenty of resources to go around. We just have the 'me me me' mentality that means those resources get concentrated in the richest areas, rather than distributed.

If we're so unimportant to this hypothetical god, why did it send its "only son" to die?
Ever consider that it didn't? Not everyone agrees that Jesus is the son of god or that his death had any real significance you know.

African poverty has been caused by centuries of human corruption, greed and general evilness towards other men. There are plenty of resources to go around. We just have the 'me me me' mentality that means those resources get concentrated in the richest areas, rather than distributed.

so god will let them suffer because of other humans selfishness?

...that I was hoping when I got here you would be able to explain all that to me.

I would get on my knees and start bauling and squealing and then tell him why I only believed in Science, because Science was the only thing that could be proven in evolution and everything else. But it would be the same with all the other religions. You couldnt prove that they were real until you died. but then he would send me to hell anyway because he's just such a fair and loving GOD.:p

That's the most ironic thing about the Abrahamic religions - God is not the bringer of knowledge, Satan is.

No, a snake is, he wasn't considered the devil untill much later. The snake was ever the symbol of knowledge in the ancient world. You won't find Satan in the Pentateuch (SP?) he came into Judaism much later.

so god will let them suffer because of other humans selfishness?
Again, this is a cop-out; an attempt to blame someone else because of our failings. Can you imagine the consequences for life if God were to directly interfere in the way you call for? How it would utterly change our existence?

We've been given a free hand with this world and screwed it up. That is no one's fault but our own.

I would have thought it would have been obvious even to you which god I was referring to.
I would have though it would have been obvious even to you which point I was referring to. Assuming a divine being who created humanity for an evenings amusement doesn't equate to assuming a Christian divine being. Since, at no point in my speaking, did I specify Christianity, I could just as easily be talking about any God-head.
Assuming divine judgement still leaves the option that Christianity could just be a crack-pot cult (as Islamists claim) that idolizes an (inferior) prophet.

Again, this is a cop-out; an attempt to blame someone else because of our failings. Can you imagine the consequences for life if God were to directly interfere in the way you call for? How it would utterly change our existence?

:rolleyes: Yeah, cause then his adherents may actually have a solid base for their faith.

If God was so condescending as to look down on us as less for doing what we feel like, based on how he "made us", then why does he get to ask for our respect?

I'd just try to vindicate my reasoning. I do believe in some higher power, but I've also realized that the odds of picking the 'correct' religion are beyond astronomical, and that to just pick one would be folly. Not only that, but I couldn't follow it with all my heart, because deep down I'd know there's only a 1 in [however many thousands of faiths there are/have been/will be] that I made the right choice. So, I am where I am, a combination of deism and agnosticism.

It seems to me that a divinity would take less offence at a position like mine of genuine and admitted ignorance than it would at, say, a fundamentalist position that claimed to have all the right answers to all the important spiritual questions when in reality the only one who could possibly know all those answers is the divinity itself.

:rolleyes: Yeah, cause then his adherents may actually have a solid base for their faith.
Life would be different beyond recognition. People would stop living their lives, and start expecting an almighty handout. Do you really want to live in a world where your actions are irrelevant?

If God was so condescending as to look down on us as less for doing what we feel like, based on how he "made us", then why does he get to ask for our respect?
Again, you are presuming to know what God does or does not think about you. Seeing as He's not spoken to you in person yet, this is somewhat presumptious. Perhaps you should wait and see what He has to say, rather than letting other people try and tell you?

I'd just try to vindicate my reasoning. I do believe in some higher power, but I've also realized that the odds of picking the 'correct' religion are beyond astronomical, and that to just pick one would be folly. Not only that, but I couldn't follow it with all my heart, because deep down I'd know there's only a 1 in [however many thousands of faiths there are/have been/will be] that I made the right choice. So, I am where I am, a combination of deism and agnosticism.

It seems to me that a divinity would take less offence at a position like mine of genuine and admitted ignorance than it would at, say, a fundamentalist position that claimed to have all the right answers to all the important spiritual questions when in reality the only one who could possibly know all those answers is the divinity itself.
I do understand where you're coming from. Personally, I believe that God probably won't give two hoots who you did and didn't believe in. And, if he does, I do agree that a wise choice of ignorance is far more humble and proper than an arrogant choice of self-interest.

Again, this is a cop-out; an attempt to blame someone else because of our failings. Can you imagine the consequences for life if God were to directly interfere in the way you call for? How it would utterly change our existence?

We've been given a free hand with this world and screwed it up. That is no one's fault but our own.

i blame god because he has the ability to step in and help us out. do parents not help their kids when they have screwed up?

can you imagine how much good god could do in the world if he would just provide evidence for his existance? if people had proof to believe in a loving god, perhaps they would show more love to thier fellow man...

I do understand where you're coming from. Personally, I believe that God probably won't give two hoots who you did and didn't believe in. And, if he does, I do agree that a wise choice of ignorance is far more humble and proper than an arrogant choice of self-interest.
I've sent you a TG btw.

*snip*
More or less my position on it, although I do see some truth in Christianity, and primarily what Christ said.

I would have though it would have been obvious even to you which point I was referring to. Assuming a divine being who created humanity for an evenings amusement doesn't equate to assuming a Christian divine being. Since, at no point in my speaking, did I specify Christianity, I could just as easily be talking about any God-head.

At no point in your speaking did you specify Christianity? Despite the two capitalised "God"s in this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10662932&postcount=33) post? (not the mention the several references to Christianity/things associated with Christianity, and the "silly Muslims" line).

I would say that post established which god you are referring to throughout.

So, which is it? Are you talking about God (specific), or are you talking about a god, or gods (non-specific).

Again, you are presuming to know what God does or does not think about you. Seeing as He's not spoken to you in person yet, this is somewhat presumptious. Perhaps you should wait and see what He has to say, rather than letting other people try and tell you?


The irony burns.

I'm presuming, but I'm not using my presumption as the basis for forming an organization, in whose name people will be killed en masse over time, asking people to pay me, or lobbying for the stripping of my fellow human beings choice in how they go about their lives.

I've sent you a TG btw.
Replied.


The irony burns.

I'm presuming, but I'm not using my presumption as the basis for forming an organization, in whose name people will be killed en masse over time, asking people to pay me, or lobbying for the stripping of my fellow human beings choice in how they go about their lives.
Again, neither did God. And yet you blame him?

Perhaps I should blame you were a relative of yours to ever do any harm.

Now, let's say you are an Athiest or Agnostic or you really weren't into your religion and you did whatever you wanted to do (that didn't break man-made laws).

Now let's say you die. And you find out God exists, and God then lists all the sins you commited against (Pick onereligion - Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc) and then God demands for an explanation, what do you say?

Okay, I'm not going to read through 7 pages of this, I'll just have to hope that many, many people have posted this before:

Where do you even get off thinking that just because somebody doesn't believe in God means they'd lead a more "sinful" life???

With that assumption alone, my friend, you're guilty of arrogance and a most reprehensible "houlier than thou" attitude.

Do you really think just because I'm an agnostic that I go around holding the basic human societal values embodied for example in the ten commandments worthless and just there to be acted against?

Seriously - to be a good human being, I don't need my fundamental morals wrapped in religious lingo, thank you very much.

Sheesh. :rolleyes:

At no point in your speaking did you specify Christianity? Despite the two capitalised "God"s in this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10662932&postcount=33) post? (not the mention the several references to Christianity/things associated with Christianity, and the "silly Muslims" line).
That post was about the contrast between early conceptions of Hell, and the modern concept that arose from silly medieval Catholics and Muslims.
QUOTE=Nadkor]I would say that post established which god you are referring to throughout.[/quote]
I would also say that, as that post predated our conversation and was commenting upon a completely different subject, it doesn't indicate anything.
So, which is it? Are you talking about God (specific), or are you talking about a god, or gods (non-specific).
In the matter of "the concept of Hell has evolved over time" I was refering to a specific concept. In our exchange over whether the Divine should care about humanity enough to save us, I am refering the general concept of a single, infinite being.

why cant god answer our questions right now? why do we have to wait until we are dead for god to open his/its mouth?

Fine. Thou hast requested answers, so for a short time I (who am called I am) shall grant thee such. Any topic is acceptable, this is thy opportunity to questioneth the Lord thy God.

Fine. Thou hast requested answers, so for a short time I (who am called I am) shall grant thee such. Any topic is acceptable, this is thy opportunity to questioneth the Lord thy God.
Questioneth? Surely, the Lord Our Saviour would know proper grammar. :rolleyes:

Questioneth? Surely, the Lord Our Saviour would know proper grammar. :rolleyes:

I maketh the gramar and I taketh away, I can not spell something wrong. But in this case the keyboard was too small for my infinite fingers, lo it was a typo. I have adjusted my keyboard now.

I maketh the gramar and I taketh away.

Apparently, spelling pisses you off as well?



/wewt "555"

Apparently, spelling pisses you off as well?



/wewt "555"


I do not possess a urinary system to get pissed off with.

In the matter of "the concept of Hell has evolved over time" I was refering to a specific concept. In our exchange over whether the Divine should care about humanity enough to save us, I am refering the general concept of a single, infinite being.

If we're going by the general concept of a single, infinite being, then it would certainly have the capacity to do it, if it is truly infinite.

Whether or not the single, infinite being would actually care enough is something I don't think you could debate without going into the specifics of varying ideas of a single, infinite being, which rather detracts from the idea of looking at the general.

I do not possess a urinary system to get pissed off with.


Must help when you go and get pissed then?:p

I do not possess a urinary system to get pissed off with.
I would have thought that if humans were made in your image then you would have possessed a urinary tract.

I would have thought that if humans were made in your image then you would have possessed a urinary tract.

My Spiritual image. What, you thought I needed to remove toxins from my blood so as not to perish? You think I need blood to deliver food and oxygen? I'm Immortal, I mean, come on, get real.

My Spiritual image. What, you thought I needed to remove toxins from my blood so as not to perish? You think I need blood to deliver food and oxygen? I'm Immortal, I mean come on.
Immortal and stupid. You really have a lot going for you. :)

What would I lose? Some douche of a deity's opportunity for more sadism?
You liberals preach respect towards people's religions, yet you constantly show how hypocritical you are in statements like the aformentioned one.

As a Christian, I am taught the reason there are problems on Earth is not because of God, but because of man's choices.

God allowed man to believe and do what he wanted without His interference. God does not condone violence, but he hates no person either. He reserves judgement for the day you face Him when you die, and his decision is both firm and fair.

Immortal and stupid. You really have a lot going for you. :)

Why do you assume stupid?

Why do you assume stupid?
I don't assume.

You liberals preach respect towards people's religions, yet you constantly show how hypocritical you are in statements like the aformentioned one.


Excuse me. We're capable of holding personal opinions without forcing a nation to line up and think like us.

(Atheists, not liberals, that is)

I don't assume.

I think this stems from some pre-conceived incorrect notion about me. You are wrong, I am quite clever. I forgive you for your insult my child.

I thin this stems from some pre-conceived incorrect notion about me.
Aha, well I am off. Have fun trying to prove your most divine divinity to the rest. Or basic intelligence for that matter. :)

Excuse me. We're capable of holding personal opinions without forcing a nation to line up and think like us.
You have the right to an opinion. I am only exposing the hypocraisy in your statements because people like you preach tolerance yet turn around and blast someone's religion.

I have my own personal opinions, too. I only find it impossible to find strength and structure without the Lord's guidance. I see what He says to be right, and thus, I believe in Him and am a conservative.

I am not forcing you to believe in Him, I am just saying what I believe.

Aha, well I am off. Have fun trying to prove your most divine divinity to the rest. Or basic intelligence for that matter. :)

I must remind you, I know where your going, and before you do what you are thinking I will remind you bestiality is a sin.

Excuse me. We're capable of holding personal opinions without forcing a nation to line up and think like us.

(Atheists, not liberals, that is)
The majority of atheists, if not all, are liberal. I have yet to hear of a conservative atheist.

I must remind you, I know where your going, and before you do what you are thinking I will remind you bestiality is a sin.
And you're supposed to be Omniscient? What a joke. :) S'amuse bien.

The majority of atheists, if not all, are liberal. I have yet to hear of a conservative atheist.
You get both atheist conservatives and religious liberals.

The majority of atheists, if not all, are liberal. I have yet to hear of a conservative atheist.
Liberal by your definition. Not by most of the rest of the world's.

And you're supposed to be Omniscient? What a joke. :) S'amuse bien.

I understand your trying to save face, but realise this is pride, and a sin, as is lying. I am mercifull however, so be as I am, and in turn be mercifull to your pets.

Liberal by your definition. Not by most of the rest of the world's.
Liberal means "to promote change". A lot of atheists promote change.

Liberal by your definition. Not by most of the rest of the world's.
Whatever definition he is using, he is small-minded. Religion and political affiliation are often correlated, but you can get virtually any mix of the two.

Whatever definition he is using, he is small-minded. Religion and political affiliation are often correlated, but you can get virtually any mix of the two.
I have heard of Christian liberals, but I have never heard of a conservative atheist. Give me an example of one, please.

You have the right to an opinion. I am only exposing the hypocraisy in your statements because people like you preach tolerance yet turn around and blast someone's religion.


People like me may indeed.

I "preach" freedom of choice, and I "preach" a Government which keeps its personal opinions out of the laws.

I'll personally blast Religion, but I wont (should I have the opportunity) ban all religious practice.

I have heard of Christian liberals, but I have never heard of a conservative atheist. Give me an example of one, please.
So out of all the millions (or even billions) of conservatives around the world, there are no atheistic ones? That is naive. I don't know your politicians well enough to refer to specific ones.

People like me may indeed.

I "preach" freedom of choice, and I "preach" a Government which keeps its personal opinions out of the laws.

I'll personally blast Religion, but I wont (should I have the opportunity) ban all religious practice.
The reason people elect representatives is because they have opinions the people agree with. A government that has no varying opinions is a dictatorship, or whatever label you see describes it best.

Liberal means "to promote change". A lot of atheists promote change.
Would this not mean Christian fundamentalists are liberal (by your definition)? Or the South Dakota legislature?

After all they seek to promote change by overturning Roe vs. Wade.

So out of all the millions (or even billions) of conservatives around the world, there are no atheistic ones? That is naive. I don't know your politicians well enough to refer to specific ones.
There may be one, but it just doesn't seem like there is.

There may be one, but it just doesn't seem like there is.
Awfully small-minded. I personally know Conservatives (Tories) who are atheist as well. In addition to other, unaffiliated right-wing individuals who adopt the same position.

I have heard of Christian liberals, but I have never heard of a conservative atheist. Give me an example of one, please.
Eut's an atheist, I believe.

You liberals preach respect towards people's religions, yet you constantly show how hypocritical you are in statements like the aformentioned one.

Tolerance, not respect. Liberals preach tolerance. I can tolerate your belief in another religion. It doesn't mean I can't think less of you for that belief. I don't have to respect your religion to tolerate it.