NationStates Jolt Archive

Normally I dislike asking for advice on an Internet forum (for obvious reasons), BUT! In this case I am left more than just a little confused and wondering what the hell is going on.

My fiancée and I are to be married in less than 6 months time. Currently we're separated while she pursues her degree in the US and I teach in Japan (loads of fun). Until last week there has never been a problem with this arrangement, well, beyond just missing each other like crazy.

Last week, a female friend of mine (and former love interest, though it never went anywhere) asked me for a dance at the reception to say goodbye. Thinking nothing of it, I said that shouldn't be the problem and I would make the arrangements. My fiancée, when she found out about this was… upset to say the very least. Now, she doesn't think I am going to cheat on her, and she swears up and down that she knows I love her, but she is bound and convinced that this friend secretly has a romantic interest in me and is royally pissed that she would ask to dance with me at the wedding.

After a long talk I managed to convince her that I would talk with my friend and let her know in no uncertain terms that I am a taken man (I thought it would be obvious). However, Monday we had another conversation, this time about what I would do should some random girl fall in love with me. Again, she trusts me not to cheat on her, but apparently she's worried that some girl will come along and I am just too nice not to tell them off.

Oh, and she was also pissed off at me for not being jealous when she wanted me to be jealous. I really don't understand that part.

So, married men of General, and ladies, if you would please, someone tell me what is going on! Is she just getting nuts because of the wedding, do all women do this, what?

And before I get yelled at for my thread title, I extend that to men as well. I'm sure part of this is my fault somehow, but damned if I know how.

All I know is that it is your fault and you should apologize. Don't fight it. Self flagellate for good measure.

Females illogical?

I'm not touching topic this with a twenty foot pole.

All I know is that it is your fault and you should apologize. Don't fight it. Self flagellate for good measure.
Already did so, and as per SOP, she is now purring with her victory. I'm just wondering what set it off in the first place.

Oh, and why I was getting yelled at for something she agrees I wouldn't ever do as well as the feelings and thoughts of someone else.

Already did so, and as per SOP, she is now purring with her victory. I'm just wondering what set it off in the first place.

Oh, and why I was getting yelled at for something she agrees I wouldn't ever do as well as the feelings and thoughts of someone else.
It's best to put it behind you. Thoughts will only send you back into weird territory.

It's best to put it behind you. Thoughts will only send you back into weird territory.
I was hoping for advice to do preventative work to keep it from happening again and that sort of thing.

If you try to make sense of it you're doomed.

Good luck.

It's not a "woman thing." It can't be, since I'm a man and the situation with respect to me and my partner is the mirror image of yours with your fiancée.

Last week, a female friend of mine (and former love interest, though it never went anywhere) asked me for a dance at the reception to say goodbye. Thinking nothing of it,
That's your first problem. Guys are constantly flirting with my partner and asking her to do "date-like" things, and she "thinks nothing of it." She thinks one (sometimes both) of two things: 1) chances are, it really is innocent, especially if the person in question knows we are dating; 2) as long as I trust her and I know nothing will ever "happen," it's "okay" if other guys are foolish enough to think they have a chance.

I disagree on both counts. First of all, it's usually pretty obvious what these guys have in mind, and eventually my partner usually comes to see that. So, she should stop making the false assumption that if a guy "asks her out" knowing that she is "taken," he "knows nothing will happen." Human beings are not that considerate when it comes to the existing relationship of someone they find attractive. Second, it is a problem for her to "let guys think" that they are "getting somewhere," even when they are not. When she does this, it sends a message (however inaccurate) to these guys that she does not respect our relationship enough to avoid flirting with them (even if she's really not), so that when they don't get anywhere, they think that their attempts were merely unsuccessful, not that they were doomed from the start. This is, in fact, a disrespectful attitude toward our relationship. She should be making it clear from the beginning, in no uncertain terms, that she would not even consider cheating on me. I know she wouldn't, but part of being in a serious relationship is that this should be public knowledge as well.

but she is bound and convinced that this friend secretly has a romantic interest in me and is royally pissed that she would ask to dance with me at the wedding.

I think she has every right to be. Considering that this is a "former love-interest" (regardless of whether it went anywhere), it is disrespectful of this woman to ask (in advance!) for a dance... and it is disrespectful (toward your fiancée) of you to accept without consulting your partner (whom you should have known might be offended). Chances are this woman wouldn't have had the guts to ask you in front of your future wife (at the wedding), and that alone should have tipped you off!

However, Monday we had another conversation, this time about what I would do should some random girl fall in love with me. Again, she trusts me not to cheat on her, but apparently she's worried that some girl will come along and I am just too nice not to tell them off.
Yeah, nice doesn't cut it. You can't let someone think they have a chance... It's not fair to them, first of all--you're stringing them along--and it's not fair to your partner to let some woman go around thinking she's "stealing you away."

Oh, and she was also pissed off at me for not being jealous when she wanted me to be jealous. I really don't understand that part.
I have to admit I don't much understand that, either. But, it's probably that she thinks about how jealous she gets when another woman so much as thinks about you, and she feels that if you don't get the same feeling you don't love her in the same way she loves you.

Do yourself a favor. At least pretend to be a little jealous the next time she mentions a guy who likes her. You know, give her a smile and say, "So did you mention me a lot?" (That's all she really wants from you.) ;)

Already did so, and as per SOP, she is now purring with her victory. I'm just wondering what set it off in the first place.

Oh, and why I was getting yelled at for something she agrees I wouldn't ever do as well as the feelings and thoughts of someone else.

I can more than understand her behaviour emotionally. What triggered it was simple fear.
She trusts you, of course she does. But at the same time, the thought of losing you or even sharing you, the thought of others getting to see more of you than she does, scares her.
I think it has a lot to do with the geographical distance between you at the moment. She can hear you and talk to you and she knows you love her, but what she can't get is the emotional security of simply being able to touch you. It's a situation that will make most people tense, it's hard on everybody, and I think what sees her through right now is the thought of seeing you again and of your wedding. And then you go ahead an promise a dance (one single dance, I know) to another woman, and what is more a woman you used to be interested in. And she just overreacted.
She is looking forward to that day, and the thought of that day has seen her through some hard days while being seperated from you. She doesn't want to share you on that day. At all. With nobody.
Just give her that bit of secutrity, she needs it.

Dude no matter what Appolgize. Because your always at fault. Thats the only logic to females.

http://www.explodingdog.com/january2/imnotblamingyoubutitisyourf.html

I should go to bed or else I'll end up posting every image that guy has ever made.

http://www.explodingdog.com/january2/imnotblamingyoubutitisyourf.html

I should go to bed or else I'll end up posting every image that guy has ever made.You could at least offer an explanation to their relevance...

Last week, a female friend of mine (and former love interest, though it never went anywhere) asked me for a dance at the reception to say goodbye. Thinking nothing of it, I said that shouldn't be the problem and I would make the arrangements. My fiancée, when she found out about this was… upset to say the very least. Now, she doesn't think I am going to cheat on her, and she swears up and down that she knows I love her, but she is bound and convinced that this friend secretly has a romantic interest in me and is royally pissed that she would ask to dance with me at the wedding.

After a long talk I managed to convince her that I would talk with my friend and let her know in no uncertain terms that I am a taken man (I thought it would be obvious). However, Monday we had another conversation, this time about what I would do should some random girl fall in love with me. Again, she trusts me not to cheat on her, but apparently she's worried that some girl will come along and I am just too nice not to tell them off.

Oh, and she was also pissed off at me for not being jealous when she wanted me to be jealous. I really don't understand that part.


OK to start with, I have highlighted the important part of this. I can TOTALLY see why your fiancee would be upset at this, and judging by the fact that you are in different continents much of the time, she is NOT some maniac 'bunny boiler' normally. A wedding is a special day, but it is HER special day, way way more than yours, and clearly way more than you realise.

DUH! you get asked by a former love interest for a dance at your WEDDING to say GOODBYE? What? does she think you are going to die once the reception is over? saying goodbye is like there is something between you that needs finishing, she has made a point of asking you before the wedding, which is odd, normally friends dont need to ask in advance for a dance. Has anybody else made a point of asking you for a dance 6 months in advance? EVER? Your friend is thumbing her nose at your fiancee, by saying he may be marring you, but I am still here, on the scene, waiting my time.

Men are so OBTUSE! I assume that your fiancee had no objection to this woman being invited to the wedding? I assume that nobody else has asked you for a dance six months in advance? I assume that in your conversation with your fiancee she asked you how you would feel if a man you knew was a former love interest did the same and you said that you wouldn't mind? I am assuming that because you said Oh, and she was also pissed off at me for not being jealous when she wanted me to be jealous. am I right?

The reason why she is 'worried that some girl will come along and I am just too nice not to tell them off' is because you are so obtuse that you can't see what she is even upset about the dance for. My ex husband went out with a group of guys from work, got chatting to a woman and had a dance with her, totally innocent to him, he even told me about it when he came home. I was not impressed, but he assured me that she knew he was married, was a really nice girl, I would get along with her, etc. etc. A short time later we were invited to a party at a friends house, and he told me that this woman would be there and I would be able to meet her and see how nice she was...well if I tell you that it didn't work out like that, that when we got to the party I knew who she was right away as she glared at me like I was a fiend from the swamp, it was the most awful atmosphere and even my ex noticed it, later that night we all ended up in a nightclub, where this woman just came up to me, said that I was a bitch and threw a drink over me...my ex husband was totally shocked by this behaviour, had no idea why she bahaved like this, then she started going to where he worked and watching him. Even though I am now divorced from him(it had nothing at all to do with this) I know that he did nothing with this woman that he thought was wrong, he was just pleasant and chatted to her but she took it the wrong way.

Ask your girlfriend what she is feeling concerned about, and then don't dismiss it because it's not what you want to hear, or because you can't imagine why she would think it. As for your friend, be aware that she may have different feelings about this than you imagine too, don't just assume that because you feel one way, that she does, even if she says she doesn't, otherwise she would never have asked you six months in advance for a dance to say goodbye

Thats my opinion clearly, but I am a woman and you did ask.

:D

Being as how PMS has been successfully used as a murder defense in the past, and taking into account that some women are ruled by hormones and not brains, I'd just apologize, while assuring her you didn't mean to hurt her feelings and that it will never happen again.

Not that this will make the situation go away, or anything. You will probably deal with this event every other time you get in an argument with her in the future every time she feels the need to give you a verbal tar and feathering wherein you cannot possibly offer up a effective retaliatory rejoinder in response.

Women never forget.

Run. Save yourself.

snip PMS snip

Don't get me started. PMS my arse. :sniper:

Women never forget.That's not true. They never forgive, but they can forget. ;)

I thought your fiancé was over reacting, until I saw the highlighted bit about it being a 'former love interest,' not just a friend.

I can understand where she's coming from there. Convincing your partner that you love them and them alone may not seem that difficult but actions can very quickly undermine your words. I think insecurity about a previous partner is probably always going to be stronger, as you clearly once saw something in them, and "what if that spark is still there?" etc.

Seriously, the best thing you can do is apologise and don't do it again. And make sure you tell your fiancé that you love her at least once every ten minutes for the next six months. :p

Oh, and she was also pissed off at me for not being jealous when she wanted me to be jealous. I really don't understand that part.Well, obviously if you're not jealous, you don't love her enough.
On the other hand if you act jealous, you don't trust her enough. It's a double bind..

I'd put it to stress and distance. Being friends with exes doesn't seem like it should be that big a deal, and asking for a dance at the wedding hardly seems like a steal move. Dudes are going to want to dance with her, it's a wedding thing. If you flipped out about that you'd be psycho. The next step is to pee on each others legs.

Hey, here's one I used to run into a lot when I was younger-chicks who didn't want to date me, but didn't want me to date anyone else. Always was a head shaker. Never really effected anything, just weird. (note that I don't think even a lot of women do this, just a few I ran into when I was younger and I don't presume that sharing a gender enables you to read thier minds, just sharing something I was thinking about today for some reason)

I'd put it to stress and distance. Being friends with exes doesn't seem like it should be that big a deal, and asking for a dance at the wedding hardly seems like a steal move. Dudes are going to want to dance with her, it's a wedding thing. If you flipped out about that you'd be psycho. The next step is to pee on each others legs.



See? I told you men are obtuse.

Sorry, 'twas dinner time and I needed to eat before tackling the replies because I do have a class tonight to teach as well.

Ok... multi posts, gomen ne?

She should be making it clear from the beginning, in no uncertain terms, that she would not even consider cheating on me. I know she wouldn't, but part of being in a serious relationship is that this should be public knowledge as well.
One would think that the fact that not only am I engaged to this woman and marrying her, but that I mention her every other sentance (or so I am told) would be enough of a public clue, but evidently not.

I think she has every right to be. Considering that this is a "former love-interest" (regardless of whether it went anywhere), it is disrespectful of this woman to ask (in advance!) for a dance... and it is disrespectful (toward your fiancée) of you to accept without consulting your partner (whom you should have known might be offended). Chances are this woman wouldn't have had the guts to ask you in front of your future wife (at the wedding), and that alone should have tipped you off!
Well, I assumed it made sence. She wanted to play a certain song and wanted to know it she could request it from the DJ. I mean, if I wanted to have something a bit hard to find played, I'd plan ahead like that.

Yeah, nice doesn't cut it. You can't let someone think they have a chance... It's not fair to them, first of all--you're stringing them along--and it's not fair to your partner to let some woman go around thinking she's "stealing you away."
I think this is going to be a problem because I just am nice. Think Boy Scout helpfulness. I do it without thinking. Maybe I should just get a sign around my neck?

I have to admit I don't much understand that, either. But, it's probably that she thinks about how jealous she gets when another woman so much as thinks about you, and she feels that if you don't get the same feeling you don't love her in the same way she loves you.
I was always taught that displaying jealousy is bad, so I don't; doesn't mean I don't GET jealous, far from it, I just have always been told that displaying it is wrong.

Just give her that bit of secutrity, she needs it.
Now if I can just figure out how to do so from over here.

*sighs* I think, I hope, things will blow over more when she comes back to Japan and I can demonstrait these things to her. Little hard to do over the Internet.

She wanted to play a certain song .

:eek: OH MY GOD! it just gets worse and worse :headbang: she had a special song all picked out?

May I ask why it never went anywhere?

Was that you or her? She has unfinished stuff with you and is letting you know it.

*arghhh runs away in frustration about how dumb inteligent men can be about stuff like this.*

*arghhh runs away in frustration about how dumb inteligent men can be about stuff like this.*Carisbrooke, we don't think like women. It has little to do with intelligence ;)

A wedding is a special day, but it is HER special day, way way more than yours, and clearly way more than you realise.
Well, no. We've already gone from, "This wedding is our day and I want you to help me plan everything," to "You WILL show up when I tell you, stand where I tell you, say what I tell you, and wear what I tell you." :p I kindda got the point after that.

DUH! you get asked by a former love interest for a dance at your WEDDING to say GOODBYE? What? does she think you are going to die once the reception is over? saying goodbye is like there is something between you that needs finishing, she has made a point of asking you before the wedding, which is odd, normally friends dont need to ask in advance for a dance. Has anybody else made a point of asking you for a dance 6 months in advance? EVER? Your friend is thumbing her nose at your fiancee, by saying he may be marring you, but I am still here, on the scene, waiting my time.
*wince* Yeah, she said something very simular.

Men are so OBTUSE! I assume that your fiancee had no objection to this woman being invited to the wedding? I assume that nobody else has asked you for a dance six months in advance? I assume that in your conversation with your fiancee she asked you how you would feel if a man you knew was a former love interest did the same and you said that you wouldn't mind? I am assuming that because you said am I right?
Did you bug our phone or something?

Yes, I admit to being obtuse. Actually the current joke is that I probably wouldn't notice if a girl was interested in me should she appear in my bed naked and begging me to take her then and there. Besides, said friend has said, repeatedly, that she considers me her brother and nothing more. I saw nothing to make me doubt her words.

My fiancee now, she says she sees her true heart and I don't because I'm a guy.

Ask your girlfriend what she is feeling concerned about, and then don't dismiss it because it's not what you want to hear, or because you can't imagine why she would think it.
Well, as I said, we have made up after I managed to convince her that yes, I would tell someone off who tried to split us up. I was just wondering what it was that I did so I can keep it from happening again, not liking to hurt my fiancee I REALLY don't want a repeat of this.

As for your friend, be aware that she may have different feelings about this than you imagine too, don't just assume that because you feel one way, that she does, even if she says she doesn't, otherwise she would never have asked you six months in advance for a dance to say goodbye
Well, I assumed it was to get the song on the play list. ^_^;;;;;

Thats my opinion clearly, but I am a woman and you did ask.
Yes, yes I did. Thank you.

Now if I can just figure out how to do so from over here.

*sighs* I think, I hope, things will blow over more when she comes back to Japan and I can demonstrait these things to her. Little hard to do over the Internet.

It will, don't worry.
In the meantime, go an extra step. I've no idea what exactly you could do, just show her somehow that you think of her all the time, every minute, every waking minute. It's very hard to convey that feeling with words alone, though...

Seriously, the best thing you can do is apologise and don't do it again. And make sure you tell your fiancé that you love her at least once every ten minutes for the next six months. :p
I was still trying to figure out what I did in the first place. And I would be more than willing to do the second except with a 17 hour time difference and being seperated by the Pacific, 'tis a wee bit hard. :(

See? I told you men are obtuse.
Well, it WOULD help if you ladies would TELL us these things instead of assuming we got it, then getting pissed off about the fact that we didn't, AND THEN holding that anger in till it explodes from nowhere leaving us poor guys confused as to what we have done. ;P

your mistake? mentioning another female to your fiancee...particularly one that was a former love interest. With the distance, insecurities mount, and while she does trust you, she doesn't trust other women. In theory, you didn't do anything wrong...the girl did. Your fiancee can't take it out on the girl, so you're the next best thing.

I was still trying to figure out what I did in the first place. And I would be more than willing to do the second except with a 17 hour time difference and being seperated by the Pacific, 'tis a wee bit hard. :(
You cheated on her. It's as simple as that. Yeah, it was a tiny, and in your mind insignificant act, but to her it is an emotional affair. You are meant to have eyes only for her, and instead you were off with someone else. Add this to the fact that you're miles away and she's probably scared about you looking elsewhere to begin with, and you have a problem.

Honestly, don't do anything with ex's. Like I said above, the feeling your fiancé will have is "he had feelings towards her once, maybe there's still something there..."

Well, I assumed it was to get the song on the play list.

Please please DON'T play the song...I am telling you that it could very well ruin your wedding day. Tell your former love interest friend whatever it needs to shut her up, but DON'T play the song, speak to the DJ and tell him that no matter what, the song must not get into the playlist or he won't get paid.

You clearly love your fiancee very much, as you have chosen to spend your life with her, is the scheming of a bitter almost ran ex worth losing it all over?

I know it sounds mental and scary, but things mean different stuff to women than to men, I could see what this woman was playing at and I don't even know either of you or your fiancee, does that not tell you something?

I know that you really don't understand, that you really love her and intend to be faithful and true and can see no reason why she would have any concerns, but she does need to be concerned, merely by the fact that you can't see why she should be.

I bet that is as clear as mud.

:D

See? I told you men are obtuse.
Well, I am. I guess. But there are dudes who'd agree with your assessment. But I would think of that as frightfully possessive in any gender. I did caveat that she's probably reacting to the distance and stress and making more out of something that's nothing because of it-rather than thinking of it as natures way of sayin 'stay away.'

I should also note, for disclosure, that I'm am about as single as one can get right now, I don't even have lines in the water-so that should properly value any 'advice' or 'observations' I have...

:eek: OH MY GOD! it just gets worse and worse :headbang: she had a special song all picked out?

May I ask why ?
Er, yes. See, we went to the prom together and I assumed it was either a song from that or, in all probablity, an anime song that would normally not be in a DJ lineup. I don't know the song as she said it was to be a surprise and she didn't want to tell me.

Was that you or her? She has unfinished stuff with you and is letting you know it.
Let's say it was a very, very bad part of my life that invloved her creating a love square that contained her boy friend (whom she recently broke up with), me, and another guy. After a rather... ah, physical night, she told me it was rather like being with her brother. After I got over it, I decided she was right. That was about 9 years ago and we have had a very plutonic relationship ever sence.

So I really didn't have any reason to doubt her words.

*arghhh runs away in frustration about how dumb inteligent men can be about stuff like this.*
It took me about a year to come to accept the idea that my fiancee may have some interest in me and I should ask her out. It took me another year to figure out that she really loves me (Still don't know why). So the idea that there may be TWO women out there who have been smacked hard enough in the head that I look like a good partner seems to be rather far fetched.

It will, don't worry.
In the meantime, go an extra step. I've no idea what exactly you could do, just show her somehow that you think of her all the time, every minute, every waking minute. It's very hard to convey that feeling with words alone, though...
Yeah, that's a problem. I can keep telling her over and over again, but it's just words right now...

Well, it WOULD help if you ladies would TELL us these things instead of assuming we got it, then getting pissed off about the fact that we didn't, AND THEN holding that anger in till it explodes from nowhere leaving us poor guys confused as to what we have done. ;P
Preach on, brother!

DUH! you get asked by a former love interest for a dance at your WEDDING to say GOODBYE? What? does she think you are going to die once the reception is over? saying goodbye is like there is something between you that needs finishing, she has made a point of asking you before the wedding, which is odd, normally friends dont need to ask in advance for a dance. Has anybody else made a point of asking you for a dance 6 months in advance? EVER? Your friend is thumbing her nose at your fiancee, by saying he may be marring you, but I am still here, on the scene, waiting my time.
okay, I need clarification. goodbye would imply ending something, yes? Perhaps there is something, in this friends mind, that does need finishing. Perhaps that last dance as friends is what she needs to be okay with it. Yes, the wedding "has nothing to do with her", I know. But it clearly does. NERVUN has said she thinks of him as a brother...thats a strong bond. I personally have a very close female friend, and have ended relationships because a girl tramples on it and gets jealous. In my mind, this girl is too important, and anyone who is going to be in a relationship needs to understand that, like my male best friend, I'm not about to ditch her just because you are jealous.

So is a dance to say goodbye really that horrible of a thing to ask for? I would ask for it from my close female friend, no question, even if I was already married...kinda like that last second to say "I approve"

did that make any sense?

You cheated on her. It's as simple as that. Yeah, it was a tiny, and in your mind insignificant act, but to her it is an emotional affair. You are meant to have eyes only for her, and instead you were off with someone else. Add this to the fact that you're miles away and she's probably scared about you looking elsewhere to begin with, and you have a problem.
How on earth did I cheat on her given I have less to do with my friend than my fiancee? I mean, I don't even call said friend on the phone.

Honestly, don't do anything with ex's. Like I said above, the feeling your fiancé will have is "he had feelings towards her once, maybe there's still something there..."
She's a friend. I hate to hurt anyone let alone a friend unless I have to.

Your fiancee can't take it out on the girl, so you're the next best thing.
Yea... I'm a punching bag. :p

Oh well, if it allows her to release stress...

How on earth did I cheat on her given I have less to do with my friend than my fiancee? I mean, I don't even call said friend on the phone.
But you're still looking at this from your perspective. You know there's nothing going on, and so the situation is incomprehensible. Your fiancé is on the other side of the world, misses you like mad and is scared that you might forget about her while you're away. By dancing with an ex, you are confirming in her mind her worst fears.

Stop thinking of it in terms of 'I know I did nothing wrong' and start looking at it as if you didn't know that. Add a healthy dose of insecurity "what if it went a little bit further than he claimed...what if they're meeting again and rediscover their feelings..." etc, and you have a very upset fiancé.

Please please DON'T play the song...I am telling you that it could very well ruin your wedding day. Tell your former love interest friend whatever it needs to shut her up, but DON'T play the song, speak to the DJ and tell him that no matter what, the song must not get into the playlist or he won't get paid.
Ah, that's not going to work. Said fiancee, while very mad at me, has already informed the DJ and is unwilling to revoke this. She's Japanese and causing discomfort among others is frowned upon. Her solution is to go into the bathroom and take a break as not to see it. Mine is to dance like Frankenstine in case anyone has any doubts whatsoever.

I know that you really don't understand, that you really love her and intend to be faithful and true and can see no reason why she would have any concerns, but she does need to be concerned, merely by the fact that you can't see why she should be.

I bet that is as clear as mud.

:D
HUH??? Yeah, I kinda get what you're getting at. Sortta.

How on earth did I cheat on her given I have less to do with my friend than my fiancee? I mean, I don't even call said friend on the phone.


She's a friend. I hate to hurt anyone let alone a friend unless I have to.
I'm with you, it seems unreasonable to cut off an entire gender or any connections you had before you met her. If your relationship with your ex evolved then you shouldn't have to throw that away. Getting married shouldn't have to mean moving into a kennel. I think she knows that, she's just too far away and this is really just her saying she really wishes you where with her and not in Japan, which in that light is understandable.

Er, yes. See, we went to the prom together and I assumed it was either a song from that or, in all probablity, an anime song that would normally not be in a DJ lineup. I don't know the song as she said it was to be a surprise and she didn't want to tell me.


Let's say it was a very, very bad part of my life that invloved her creating a love square that contained her boy friend (whom she recently broke up with), me, and another guy. After a rather... ah, physical night, she told me it was rather like being with her brother. After I got over it, I decided she was right. That was about 9 years ago and we have had a very plutonic relationship ever sence.



.

OK, so this friend was in a relationship with a guy that went on for over NINE years, she had sex with you AND some other guy too...so she has no qualms about infedelity.

She recently broke up with her long term boyfriend and you can't see what the problem is here? the more I find out, the worse it gets. Of course she is after you, she is feeling suddenly on the shelf, and there you are, having the gaul to get married! She has already shown you that she doesn't worry about who is in a relationship and who isn't. She also knows that you at one point didn't either. Be very careful with this, it could seriously fuck up your life.

Yea... I'm a punching bag. :p

Oh well, if it allows her to release stress...
haha...I can suggest some better ways to get rid of stress, but they don't work so well when you're on opposite sides of the ocean...and I'm sure you already know them. If you don't, man, will the honeymoon be interesting.:p

I'm with you, it seems unreasonable to cut off an entire gender
But this isn't just a woman. This is an ex from a long term relationship. Big difference.

But you're still looking at this from your perspective. You know there's nothing going on, and so the situation is incomprehensible. Your fiancé is on the other side of the world, misses you like mad and is scared that you might forget about her while you're away. By dancing with an ex, you are confirming in her mind her worst fears.

Stop thinking of it in terms of 'I know I did nothing wrong' and start looking at it as if you didn't know that. Add a healthy dose of insecurity "what if it went a little bit further than he claimed...what if they're meeting again and rediscover their feelings..." etc, and you have a very upset fiancé.
Ok, THAT makes sence. Thank you.

But this isn't just a woman. This is an ex from a long term relationship. Big difference.
*passes NERVUN an economy size bottle of asprin and a 30 pack of beer*
something tells me you'll need those...

She recently broke up with her long term boyfriend and you can't see what the problem is here? the more I find out, the worse it gets. Of course she is after you, she is feeling suddenly on the shelf, and there you are, having the gaul to get married! She has already shown you that she doesn't worry about who is in a relationship and who isn't. She also knows that you at one point didn't either. Be very careful with this, it could seriously fuck up your life.
Well, nothing has changed as of late. I mean, I'd get curious if I heard from her more often or she started mentioning us more, but honestly I see her online maybe 2 or 3 times a week and talk with her online perhaps once a month (and even then I always stop when my fiancee pops up so I can call her at home). All we usually talk about is anime or web comics.

So, honestly, I saw nothing to make me suspect this change.

And yes, I am aware I'm about to get yelled at for being dence.

haha...I can suggest some better ways to get rid of stress, but they don't work so well when you're on opposite sides of the ocean...and I'm sure you already know them. If you don't, man, will the honeymoon be interesting.:p
Oh I know. That was one of the frustrating parts was having to deal with this on the phone and not being able to just grab her and kiss her so she knows.

But, if everyone is right, that's part of the problem.

*passes NERVUN an economy size bottle of asprin and a 30 pack of beer*
something tells me you'll need those...
*Takes the beer, hands the asprin back (illegal in Japan)*
Thanks.

I completely sympathise with you especially about the situation in which you were supposed to be jealous and you quite simply weren't. I encounter similar situations with my girlfriend.

I hate this idea that we are supposed to 'belong' to each other. It's outdated and, frankly, it is selfish. One of the biggest tragedies in life is that people feel they have a claim to another person's body and sexual freedom.

You also have a wedding coming up. I wouldn't be surprised if it's being planned mostly her way, after all it's 'her' big day. You're incidental to the whole affair even though it's you she's going to get married too.

Yet, I don't think it would be wise to dance with your former girlfriend at your wedding. Tell her this and if she gets upset ask her how she would feel if it happened to her.

hoomans of ALL ages AND genders are "highly illogical". female hoomans of child bearing age niether more nor less so then the hooman species in general.

diversity is the nature of reallity. accept it or beat your head against it.
reality does not object to our harbouring preferences, but to object to its preference for diversity is to beat our own heads against it.

=^^=
.../\...

Ah, that's not going to work. Said fiancee, while very mad at me, has already informed the DJ and is unwilling to revoke this. She's Japanese and causing discomfort among others is frowned upon. Her solution is to go into the bathroom and take a break as not to see it. Mine is to dance like Frankenstine in case anyone has any doubts whatsoever.

You are not serious? you are STILL going to dance with this woman? Your Fiancee is going to hide in the bathroom on her wedding day? do you think that she will EVER forgive you for that? I am a fairly easy going woman and there is no way that I would forgive having to hide in the bathroom on my wedding day to apease the feelings of a recently single predatory ex girlfriend.

You have and need to sort this out, your fiancee may have suggested she cower with shame and distress in the toilet at her own wedding, but just think about what signals that sends out to both of these women. What do you really want? I assume that you want to be married, happily and live with this wonderful woman who loves you and wants to be your wife? then please don't mess it up for the sake of politeness.

Oh I know. That was one of the frustrating parts was having to deal with this on the phone and not being able to just grab her and kiss her so she knows.

But, if everyone is right, that's part of the problem.
I want to say that it is most of the problem...I'm sure one of the women here will more than happily correct me, but the way I see it is long distance relationships are difficult for a reason. We get most of our conversation clues from direct contact...the eyes, body language, all that. Factor in the lack of physical intamacy, and an emotional transgression just becomes explosive.

I want to say that it is most of the problem...I'm sure one of the women here will more than happily correct me, but the way I see it is long distance relationships are difficult for a reason. We get most of our conversation clues from direct contact...the eyes, body language, all that. Factor in the lack of physical intamacy, and an emotional transgression just becomes explosive.


I was in a long distance relationship, me in the UK and him in Canada, but this is not about that, it is about his fiancee offering to go and hide in the bathroom on her wedding day so that a recently single ex girlfriend can dance with her brand new husband. Even if they were in the same room, the facts of this don't change. She is not getting bent out of shape because he has a female friend, thats not what this is about. This is about her needing you to show people that she is the most important person in your life, and her having to hide in the toilet is not showing her or anyone else for that matter, that, now is it?

I was in a long distance relationship, me in the UK and him in Canada, but this is not about that, it is about his fiancee offering to go and hide in the bathroom on her wedding day so that a recently single ex girlfriend can dance with her brand new husband. Even if they were in the same room, the facts of this don't change. She is not getting bent out of shape because he has a female friend, thats not what this is about. This is about her needing you to show people that she is the most important person in your life, and her having to hide in the toilet is not showing her or anyone else for that matter, that, now is it?
I'm not arguing that...what I am arguing is that I don't think this would become a fight had they been in the same room...my argument is that the distance, while not the cause of the issue, definatly exacerbates it

I'm not arguing that...what I am arguing is that I don't think this would become a fight had they been in the same room...my argument is that the distance, while not the cause of the issue, definatly exacerbates it


Distance doesn't help, I agree. I am just getting frustrated at the thought of this poor girl spending part of her wedding day hiding in the toilet. Nevrun, you should have called this thread 'My fiancee is going to hide in the toilet on our wedding day so that I can dance with my loose moraled recently single ex, why would she be upset?'

Distance doesn't help, I agree. I am just getting frustrated at the thought of this poor girl spending part of their wedding day hiding in the toilet.
Sorry, I just had to edit this one part...please don't hurt me:( ;)

I'm sure one of the women here will more than happily correct me
I should just clarify that I'm not a woman... :p

I've just been with my girlfriend for quite a long time now, including periods a long way apart. It's not that I understand what the problem is because I'm a woman - more a case of "been there, done that... got the scars to prove it." :D

I should just clarify that I'm not a woman... :p

I've just been with my girlfriend for quite a long time now, including periods a long way apart. It's not that I understand what the problem is because I'm a woman - more a case of "been there, done that... got the scars to prove it." :D
haha...oh, I didn't mean you...I meant carisbrooke. I think I was in a different thread (maybe the voice one?) and found out you were a dude.

anyway, before I get castrated for my edit, I need sleep. NER, good luck with all this.

Sorry, I just had to edit this one part...please don't hurt me:( ;)


Has Sarkhaan proffesionally killed.:sniper:

I was saying that is what NEVRUN should have called his thread...it is his wedding day...so therefore OURS and NOT theirs DOH!...:headbang:

I feel SO much better for that, I am going to have some chocolate now, and return soon to give my excellent opinions on all things after that. :p

I will admit that I didn't sift through the four pages of posts. I mainly read the first and fourth pages.

I live in Japan also; Fussa-shi. I am in a relatively similar predicament as my wife is currently attending university in Sydney, Australia, while my line of work has me currently stationed in Japan.

Women are only illogical in the sense of perspective. Logic is the system of reasoning of an individual. Women seem illogical to you, because you unable to dettach yourself from your perspective and attempt to inject yourself in their own. That however, doesn't mean they are truly illogical.

The answer is simple, in my opinion. Whom do you value more? Your fiancee, which I assume you must hold dear in your heart, as you are going to vow your unyielding devotion and love to her - Or this previous love interest and friend, whom may be trying to actually pry you apart as well as lure you to her.

Most of the time, people have intentions when they approach you and ask something of you, especially strangers. Granted this is a friend, but from my vantage point, it is a friend you seldom keep in contact with. I believe there may be some motive that you are not seeing. Then again, I am inherently distrustful of people I come in contact with, until I get to know them.

Personally, I value my wife more than friends. If the love between you two is true, you will be hard pressed to ever find it again, whereas you can always find new friends.

Normally I dislike asking for advice on an Internet forum (for obvious reasons), BUT! In this case I am left more than just a little confused and wondering what the hell is going on.

My fiancée and I are to be married in less than 6 months time. Currently we're separated while she pursues her degree in the US and I teach in Japan (loads of fun). Until last week there has never been a problem with this arrangement, well, beyond just missing each other like crazy.

Last week, a female friend of mine (and former love interest, though it never went anywhere) asked me for a dance at the reception to say goodbye. Thinking nothing of it, I said that shouldn't be the problem and I would make the arrangements. My fiancée, when she found out about this was… upset to say the very least. Now, she doesn't think I am going to cheat on her, and she swears up and down that she knows I love her, but she is bound and convinced that this friend secretly has a romantic interest in me and is royally pissed that she would ask to dance with me at the wedding.

After a long talk I managed to convince her that I would talk with my friend and let her know in no uncertain terms that I am a taken man (I thought it would be obvious). However, Monday we had another conversation, this time about what I would do should some random girl fall in love with me. Again, she trusts me not to cheat on her, but apparently she's worried that some girl will come along and I am just too nice not to tell them off.

Oh, and she was also pissed off at me for not being jealous when she wanted me to be jealous. I really don't understand that part.

So, married men of General, and ladies, if you would please, someone tell me what is going on! Is she just getting nuts because of the wedding, do all women do this, what?

And before I get yelled at for my thread title, I extend that to men as well. I'm sure part of this is my fault somehow, but damned if I know how.

The most likely thing is that she's insecure because of the distance between you. Distance doesn't always make the heart grow fonder, and if she's starting to feel the strain of distance, she might be really scared that you're starting to feel it too. Especially if she thinks that a marriage within the next few months might be in jeopardy.

Another possibility is that she's starting to notice other men and is worried that the same thing is going on with you (the equivalent of course). Not that she's cheated or anything (something I refuse to speculate on) but women need a relationship to be reinforced continuously.

Guys can, to a greater degree, put a relationship on hold and take it for granted that when it resumes that it's just as good as when it left off. If anyone thinks I'm being sexist, just ask yourself who's better at taking people for granted? It's like putting pasta in the freezer. Take it out, warm it up, good as new.

Women tend to take all the distance as being part of the relationship, even if she tries to tell herself it's only temporary. Like putting pizza in the freezer. Once it goes cold, it's never quite the same. Even if she knows that you can't really see each other more, it's going to have an effect on her that you aren't.

I will admit that I didn't sift through the four pages of posts. I mainly read the first and fourth pages.

I live in Japan also; Fussa-shi. I am in a relatively similar predicament as my wife is currently attending university in Sydney, Australia, while my line of work has me currently stationed in Japan.

Women are only illogical in the sense of perspective. Logic is the system of reasoning of an individual. Women seem illogical to you, because you unable to dettach yourself from your perspective and attempt to inject yourself in their own. That however, doesn't mean they are truly illogical.

The answer is simple, in my opinion. Whom do you value more? Your fiancee, which I assume you must hold dear in your heart, as you are going to vow your unyielding devotion and love to her - Or this previous love interest and friend, whom may be trying to actually pry you apart as well as lure you to her.

Most of the time, people have intentions when they approach you and ask something of you, especially strangers. Granted this is a friend, but from my vantage point, it is a friend you seldom keep in contact with. I believe there may be some motive that you are not seeing. Then again, I am inherently distrustful of people I come in contact with, until I get to know them.

Personally, I value my wife more than friends. If the love between you two is true, you will be hard pressed to ever find it again, whereas you can always find new friends.

What a wonderful post! your wife is a lucky woman. I can see that you have totally seen through the male/female thing into the real relationship beyond.

Too many people think that by being insecure about this, his fiancee is just having a problem about him being friends with a woman, and because she is far away. The issue that she has is this particular woman, her motives and reasons for a specific act on a very special and important day. I hope that Nervun reads all the posts and realises the real importance of this. I hope that he does not come to regret NOT doing something different in the future.

Most of the time, people have intentions when they approach you and ask something of you, especially strangers. Granted this is a friend, but from my vantage point, it is a friend you seldom keep in contact with. I believe there may be some motive that you are not seeing.

As a woman, I can firmly agree with what Salias says - he has it in a nutshell. Attending an all-girls grammar school, I've often been approached with questions on how to 'get' the guy they like from someone else. At dances, I've watched women suddenly start to flirt with 'taken' men, because the fact another woman is interested in him suggests the man is desirable in some way.

Many of my female friends have said, "we're just friends, but I want it to be something more." They can act like your friend, but secretly be attracted to you.

If women can act like your friend, whilst secretly hating you, they can do it whilst secretly being in love with you. We know women can talk about 'friends' behind their backs, and we know women can have secret crushes on friends. This has been the case, probably, since the beginning of time - and it doesn't look like slowing down.

Women often hide their motives. The reason is unimportant. I know they do this, because I've been frequently backstabbed and squeezed out by ambitious or bitter female 'friends'. If I'd known their motives, I could have acted against it, and they wouldn't have succeeded.

Nervun, I don't trust your ex in the slightest. Furthermore, the fact you asked if Carisbrooke had tapped your phone, shows a correlation in women's thinking. Women know how other women think. We may seem illogical, but there's always a reason why we are jealous; we know other womens' motives because we have seen and experienced them.

For the sake of your marriage, Nervun, do not dance with your ex. Your fiancee's hiding in the toilet shows her upset, and lack of trust of your ex so she can't bear to watch. Is this what you want your marriage to be based on?

It's not a "woman thing." It can't be, since I'm a man and the situation with respect to me and my partner is the mirror image of yours with your fiancée.


That's your first problem. Guys are constantly flirting with my partner and asking her to do "date-like" things, and she "thinks nothing of it." She thinks one (sometimes both) of two things: 1) chances are, it really is innocent, especially if the person in question knows we are dating; 2) as long as I trust her and I know nothing will ever "happen," it's "okay" if other guys are foolish enough to think they have a chance.

I disagree on both counts. First of all, it's usually pretty obvious what these guys have in mind, and eventually my partner usually comes to see that. So, she should stop making the false assumption that if a guy "asks her out" knowing that she is "taken," he "knows nothing will happen." Human beings are not that considerate when it comes to the existing relationship of someone they find attractive. Second, it is a problem for her to "let guys think" that they are "getting somewhere," even when they are not. When she does this, it sends a message (however inaccurate) to these guys that she does not respect our relationship enough to avoid flirting with them (even if she's really not), so that when they don't get anywhere, they think that their attempts were merely unsuccessful, not that they were doomed from the start. This is, in fact, a disrespectful attitude toward our relationship. She should be making it clear from the beginning, in no uncertain terms, that she would not even consider cheating on me. I know she wouldn't, but part of being in a serious relationship is that this should be public knowledge as well.



I think she has every right to be. Considering that this is a "former love-interest" (regardless of whether it went anywhere), it is disrespectful of this woman to ask (in advance!) for a dance... and it is disrespectful (toward your fiancée) of you to accept without consulting your partner (whom you should have known might be offended). Chances are this woman wouldn't have had the guts to ask you in front of your future wife (at the wedding), and that alone should have tipped you off!


Yeah, nice doesn't cut it. You can't let someone think they have a chance... It's not fair to them, first of all--you're stringing them along--and it's not fair to your partner to let some woman go around thinking she's "stealing you away."


I have to admit I don't much understand that, either. But, it's probably that she thinks about how jealous she gets when another woman so much as thinks about you, and she feels that if you don't get the same feeling you don't love her in the same way she loves you.

Do yourself a favor. At least pretend to be a little jealous the next time she mentions a guy who likes her. You know, give her a smile and say, "So did you mention me a lot?" (That's all she really wants from you.) ;)

I agree and the advice is good.

If it is a former love interest, she is right to be irritated.

When she says 'too nice', she means 'too gutless and half hearted'.

Revel in your swineness.. and practice saying "Yes, dear"!:headbang:

I taught my husband (the poster Salias above) to fall back on the line "No, your bum does not look big in that" whenever there's a hint of trouble, regardless of the context. ;P

I taught my husband (the poster Salias above) to fall back on the line "No, your bum does not look big in that" whenever there's a hint of trouble, regardless of the context. ;P


I can see that working. :D

What even in this horse costume?

Psh. Like men are any better.
My ex used to get pissed off when I'd stay late at the library studying because the people I study with tend to be male (I'm in physics, not many girls in the programme to start with) he tried to ban me from seeing some good friends, and was a general douche.

Of course, he's an ex so I get to laugh at my stupidity for staying with him that long and enjoy new sensible men.

You are not serious? you are STILL going to dance with this woman? Your Fiancee is going to hide in the bathroom on her wedding day? do you think that she will EVER forgive you for that? I am a fairly easy going woman and there is no way that I would forgive having to hide in the bathroom on my wedding day to apease the feelings of a recently single predatory ex girlfriend.

You have and need to sort this out, your fiancee may have suggested she cower with shame and distress in the toilet at her own wedding, but just think about what signals that sends out to both of these women. What do you really want? I assume that you want to be married, happily and live with this wonderful woman who loves you and wants to be your wife? then please don't mess it up for the sake of politeness.
It was NOT my idea, but believe you me, getting my fiancee to change her mind is next to impossible, especially after she has decided that to do so would cause disharmony.

We're rather too much alike in that regard. As much as I know she is very unhappy about the dance, I know she would be furious if I told my friend that we cannot dance, because no matter what spin I put on it, my friend will know it is due to her (These are my fiancee's reasons, not mine).

However, I have also promised my fiancee to have a little talk with my friend before the wedding and make sure she fully understands that I not only am taken, but have no interest in her whatsoever and would be willing to sacrifice our friendship to keep my soon-to-be-wife. I'm not sure if my fiancee thinks that my friend will then withdraw the dance or what. Her words to the effect was that once my friend understood, it would be a dance between friends and she could stand that.

When she says 'too nice', she means 'too gutless and half hearted'.
No, actually she means too nice. As in if someone asks for help from me, 9 times out of 10, I'll help them. Such as helping with a homework question all the way from Japan, or spending half of my vacation back home attempting to fix a computer.

She likes it when I do these things for her, she's not so happy that I have a tendancy to do the same for other people as well.

She puts up with it because that's just who I am and I have never, ever broken any promise to be with her or left her, or made her wait to help someone else (Except for one time, and that was a true emergency, like squirting blood type)

Already did so, and as per SOP, she is now purring with her victory. I'm just wondering what set it off in the first place.

Oh, and why I was getting yelled at for something she agrees I wouldn't ever do as well as the feelings and thoughts of someone else.
there are 3 options as to what caused this

1 she is stressed out (sometimes when we get stressed we take it out on people that we know won't fight back)

2 she doesn't like this woman (and doesn't trust her, it's not hate so much as woman's intuition,and we can't turn it off or make it go away and if you go against it believe me you are going to hear about it)

3 you went about it the wrong way, you neglected to tell her or told her in a way that she found deceptive (which can set off our woman's intuition for now reason other than on a base level we feel something isn't right)

there are 3 options as to what caused this

1 she is stressed out (sometimes when we get stressed we take it out on people that we know won't fight back)

2 she doesn't like this woman (and doesn't trust her, it's not hate so much as woman's intuition,and we can't turn it off or make it go away and if you go against it believe me you are going to hear about it)

3 you went about it the wrong way, you neglected to tell her or told her in a way that she found deceptive (which can set off our woman's intuition for now reason other than on a base level we feel something isn't right)
A little bit of all three (Actually a lot of number two). I'm just looking, now, for a way to keep this from happening again.

However, from the sound of it, the only true way to do so would be to break off my friendship. Which I am lothe to do on general princible, but I may not have a choice if I want to keep my fiancee happy (which is my first priority).

A little bit of all three (Actually a lot of number two). I'm just looking, now, for a way to keep this from happening again.

However, from the sound of it, the only true way to do so would be to break off my friendship. Which I am lothe to do on general princible, but I may not have a choice if I want to keep my fiancee happy (which is my first priority).

There is no way to stop it from happening again, you can only lessen the chance, which would require being 150% honest about everything and not getting into suspect situations with the woman your fiancee doesn't like (aka dancing at a wedding)

I broke off a frienship with a guy when I got married because I could see that in the future it would cause problems (more because the guy was in love with me than my husband being jealous)

when you are single it's "girlfriends (or boyfriends in my case) come and go but friends are forever"

when you get married things change "friends may come and go, but my spouse is forever"

it's a hard adjustment to make, but in the long run it will help out your marriage, you two are going to be a team, you can't be fighting over stupid stuff like whom the other hangs out with, if she doesn't get a good vibe off the woman (pardon the phrasing) then you gotta cut it off. Doing that will help her feelings about you being too weak, a lot.

Well, it WOULD help if you ladies would TELL us these things instead of assuming we got it, then getting pissed off about the fact that we didn't, AND THEN holding that anger in till it explodes from nowhere leaving us poor guys confused as to what we have done. ;P

Forget it, I've been married 18 years and my wife still expects me to read her mind and gets mad when I don't. Practice saying the words "You are probably right dear" and "I'm sorry" over and over, they are words you'll need to use quite a bit. Do NOT tell her "I'm not sure what it is I did, but I'm sorry" because then she'll get mad at you for not understanding what it is that you did wrong and for failing to figure it out, despite her unwillingness to tell you.

Forget it, I've been married 18 years and my wife still expects me to read her mind and gets mad when I don't. Practice saying the words "You are probably right dear" and "I'm sorry" over and over, they are words you'll need to use quite a bit. Do NOT tell her "I'm not sure what it is I did, but I'm sorry" because then she'll get mad at you for not understanding what it is that you did wrong and for failing to figure it out, despite her unwillingness to tell you.
no, we get mad because it's a half assed appology that was made only to try to get out of trouble, you can't be sorry for something when you don't know what you did. :rolleyes:


The phrase that will get you out of trouble in those situations is not "I don't know what I did, but I am sorry", it's "I am sorry that I have hurt your feelings, but I don't understand what caused it" see? then you are appologizing for something (hurting her feelings) and also she might just tell you what you did.........maybe. (although most of the time it's pretty obvious what you did anyway)

(although most of the time it's pretty obvious what you did anyway)(If we men weren't so incredibly dense at least)

...she's worried that some girl will come along and I am just too nice not to tell them off.

Oh, and she was also pissed off at me for not being jealous when she wanted me to be jealous. I really don't understand that part.

...do all women do this, what?No. Not all Women are like that.

You wrote a long thread asking men for advice..
I waited for (lots of) other replies to balance my bold line of tough..

So here it is: Do Not marry her. It is a pain to live with a possessive person. ...Eventually she will decide what females you can talk to.. (and from your post).. you don't seem to be a Man that can stand his ground.

(although most of the time it's pretty obvious what you did anyway)
Obvious to YOU, but I was confused as all hell, especially as it wasn't she was mad at me because I cheated on her (which I didn't), or because she thought I MIGHT cheat on her (which she didn't), it was because someone else has apparently developed feelings for me (which I didn't know about at all). So I really had no clue why she was angry at me.

(If we men weren't so incredibly dense at least)Women aren't any better...

Women aren't any better...True, otherwise they'd have learned by now how dense we are :p

So here it is: Do Not get marry her. It is a pain to live with a posesive person. ...Eventually she will decide what females you can talk to.. and from your post you dont seem to be a Man tha can stand his ground.
I'm not sure whether to laugh at the advice or the idea that I don't stand my ground. Trust me when I say that I have met mules more willing to back off than me when I get a bug up my nose about something.

I'm not sure whether to laugh at the advice or the idea that I don't stand my ground. Trust me when I say that I have met mules more willing to back off than me when I get a bug up my nose about something.I given you my advice.. Thats the best I can do.
Good luck.

True, otherwise they'd have learned by now how dense we are :pWell, its more of a "complicated in different ways" issue. My ex still hasn't figured out what she did to hurt me so badly and in return blames my continued love-sickness wholly on me, as there is no logical reason she can come up with why she might be at fault.
In essence women can be as dense as men when it comes to obvious.

I would think that marrying someone who gets pissed off without reason is pretty illogical too. Pot/Kettle.

Obvious to YOU, but I was confused as all hell, especially as it wasn't she was mad at me because I cheated on her (which I didn't), or because she thought I MIGHT cheat on her (which she didn't), it was because someone else has apparently developed feelings for me (which I didn't know about at all). So I really had no clue why she was angry at me.
she doesn't see how you can't see it though, you have to explain to her that you are oblivious to women. I bet when you two first met she was flirting with you for a while before you figured out that she liked you right? if so, tell her that and reassure her that the only reason you figured it out is because you liked her, and that the reason you still didn't get that this woman liked you was that you are uninterested, and only focused on your fiancee (sounds cheesy, but if it's true, it might work)

oh, and I re-read the OP, this "former love intrest" of yours wants to dance with you at you and your fiancee's reception? that is screwed up and she is not really wanting to dance with you but to manipulate and hurt your fiancee which even makes more sense as to why she would be pissed off.

Your wedding day is for you and your spouse, it's the big party when you tell everyone that you two are in it for life, don't start out the marriage like this, the only other woman you can dance with without a fight at the wedding is your mother (maybe a sister or a neice, but always family)

well i've read through a fair bit of this thread... and while i agree with a lot of things said, i think it really just boils down to a communications problem between you two, and maybe an issue of trust.

your point of view is that this other woman wants to dance with you. you have no interest in her. you love your fiancee. you're dancing with her as a friend and that's that - simple.

your fiancee obviously sees things differently. maybe she's reading more into the situation than you, maybe she doesn't trust her (or you), maybe she just doesn't want anyone else spoiling her special day. i don't know.

but the conflict is to do with a difference in point of view and opinion, and i believe there are very few conflicts (especially of this nature) that can't be resolved by talking about it and understanding where each other is coming from, and working out a solution together. if she could understand your point of view, then there'd be no problem with that dance, right? if you fully understood hers, then you could work out a solution or do whatever you can to assuade her fears. if she just doesn't trust you, then that's something different again, and doesn't bode well for the relationship i should guess. but personally i see no reason to lose a friend over a misunderstanding like this. maybe that's because i don't "understand" women, and am probably thinking about this in a very "bloke-ish" way, but... *shrugs* that's my take on it anyway :)

Meh, people are highly illogical.

Normally I dislike asking for advice on an Internet forum (for obvious reasons), BUT! In this case I am left more than just a little confused and wondering what the hell is going on.

My fiancée and I are to be married in less than 6 months time. Currently we're separated while she pursues her degree in the US and I teach in Japan (loads of fun). Until last week there has never been a problem with this arrangement, well, beyond just missing each other like crazy.

Last week, a female friend of mine (and former love interest, though it never went anywhere) asked me for a dance at the reception to say goodbye. Thinking nothing of it, I said that shouldn't be the problem and I would make the arrangements. My fiancée, when she found out about this was… upset to say the very least. Now, she doesn't think I am going to cheat on her, and she swears up and down that she knows I love her, but she is bound and convinced that this friend secretly has a romantic interest in me and is royally pissed that she would ask to dance with me at the wedding.

After a long talk I managed to convince her that I would talk with my friend and let her know in no uncertain terms that I am a taken man (I thought it would be obvious). However, Monday we had another conversation, this time about what I would do should some random girl fall in love with me. Again, she trusts me not to cheat on her, but apparently she's worried that some girl will come along and I am just too nice not to tell them off.

Oh, and she was also pissed off at me for not being jealous when she wanted me to be jealous. I really don't understand that part.

So, married men of General, and ladies, if you would please, someone tell me what is going on! Is she just getting nuts because of the wedding, do all women do this, what?

And before I get yelled at for my thread title, I extend that to men as well. I'm sure part of this is my fault somehow, but damned if I know how.

What you are describing doesn't have the least thing to do with "logic." It has to do with people being taught profoundly stupid things about relationships, love, marriage, and commitment.

Women happen to be taught some particularly annoying things, such as the idea that all men secretly hate the idea of being "tied down," and that every man will leap at an opportunity to sleep with another woman. Women are taught that they immediately become less desireable to a man once he has "conquered" them (read: once he has marked his territory by coming inside them). Women are told time and again that a man would rather get him some free milk than have to "buy the cow." Imagine how level-headed you would be if you were consistently refered to as an ungainly and supposedly undesireable breed of livestock.

Women are also taught that a "real man" will always express his love and devotion by making an utter ass of himself (beating up a guy for looking at "his" woman, etc), and that any man who does not make an ass of himself is clearly either gay or not really in love with her. While most women (like most humans in general) have a natural dislike for people making asses of themselves, they encounter a mental conflict when they try to process how to feel about a macho-jealous male...they have an instinctive dislike for jackassery, yet society tells them that this is how a "real man" must behave. What's a girl to do? Generally, she will end up being angry no matter what the guy does. If he acts like a jealous prick she will get pissed about that, but if he doesn't get jealous she will get angry because she has been taught that this means he doesn't really care about her.

The solution to the situation, as with most relationship issues, is to act like grown ups. TALK ABOUT IT, point blank, and DON'T END THE CONVERSATION until there is an actual resolution. Don't let her get off the hook by wailing that you "just don't understand." Don't let yourself off the hook by telling yourself she's just an illogical female. If you care about this relationship then you owe it to yourself to make sure you straighten out shit like this before it can poison your future with this woman. She needs to hear that you expect clear, respectful communication, and she needs to hear that you are prepared to give her a respectful and caring ear when she has concerns.

It all sounds so simple and obvious, but you would be surprised at how many otherwise-intelligent and groovy people are totally clueless about how to talk to a romantic partner.

Last week, a female friend of mine (and former love interest, though it never went anywhere) asked me for a dance at the reception to say goodbye.

at the risk of repeating what may have already been said...
this friend/ex is not acting like a friend if she's using this dance to "say goodbye" she's being manipulative, and a real friend, ex or not, wouldn't say something like that. she's flattering your ego, and now she's going to try to do it in front of your fiancee. that's just going out of her way to be hurtful to your wife, and you could have ended it quickly with a response like "we already said goodbye."

if your fiancee freaks every time you mention a female friend, then she's insecure about your long distance relationship, but if this is the thing that set her off, then she's justified to be suspicious of this ex.

at the risk of repeating what may have already been said...
this friend/ex is not acting like a friend if she's using this dance to "say goodbye" she's being manipulative, and a real friend, ex or not, wouldn't say something like that. she's flattering your ego, and now she's going to try to do it in front of your fiancee. that's just going out of her way to be hurtful to your wife, and you could have ended it quickly with a response like "we already said goodbye."

if your fiancee freaks every time you mention a female friend, then she's insecure about your long distance relationship, but if this is the thing that set her off, then she's justified to be suspicious of this ex.

I agree. (but then again I am a woman)

The phrase that will get you out of trouble in those situations is not "I don't know what I did, but I am sorry", it's "I am sorry that I have hurt your feelings, but I don't understand what caused it" see? then you are appologizing for something (hurting her feelings) and also she might just tell you what you did.........maybe. (although most of the time it's pretty obvious what you did anyway)
EXCELLENT ADVICE!!!

Don't just throw "I'm sorry" around like magical fairy dust. I've seen lots of people do this with their significant other, and it only makes things worse when you say things like "I'm sorry for whatever." Whether or not you intend to do so, phrasing it like that carries the implication that they are acting silly or stupid or crazy and you are just trying to placate their silly, stupid, crazy ass.

Instead, you can communicate that you really are sorry to have done something that hurt them, but that you want to understand what went wrong so that you can avoid hurting them this way again. This way, you are not only reminding them that you really care about their feelings and don't want to hurt them, but you also are expressing your desire to understand them better.

I taught my husband (the poster Salias above) to fall back on the line "No, your bum does not look big in that" whenever there's a hint of trouble, regardless of the context. ;P
My partner and I have a long standing joke...whenever we squabble about something minor, one of us will break into mock-sobs and wail, "You just hate me because of my fat thighs, don't you?!"

... someone tell me what is going on! Is she just getting nuts because of the wedding, do all women do this, what?
Mistake number one: you are trying to make rational sense about what is basically an emotional response. Give it up.

Mistake number two: you told her you danced with another woman. Never do that again.

Mistake number three: you are looking through a man's eyes at a young woman's response to her fiance's being "hit on" by another woman. This is a losing proposition. Women are to be loved, admired and virtually worshipped, not "understood."

Mistake number four: blaming yourself for something unknown when there is actually no "blame" involved. Stop it.

Mistake number five: not being jealous ( or at least pretending to be a bit jealous ) when you should have known that's what she wanted you to be. Try harder.

I agree. (but then again I am a woman)

as am i!

i think a fair amount of the misunderstanding between guys and women is that, frankly, we both like to feel desirable. that doesn’t end when we get married, but a women is going to respect your need to have your ego flattered if it’s patently clear that you’re up front to other women about where your true desires are.

and as someone who has stayed friends with some of my exes, i would never use their wedding to say ‘goodbye.’ what a dumb thing to say. that’s just immature.

Forget it, I've been married 18 years and my wife still expects me to read her mind and gets mad when I don't. Practice saying the words "You are probably right dear" and "I'm sorry" over and over, they are words you'll need to use quite a bit. Do NOT tell her "I'm not sure what it is I did, but I'm sorry" because then she'll get mad at you for not understanding what it is that you did wrong and for failing to figure it out, despite her unwillingness to tell you.
Wow, that's just plain sad. After 18 years, your wife has that little respect for you? And you have so little respect for her that you are prepared to placate her like a spoilt child? And you have so little respect for yourself that you are satisfied with that kind of "relationship"?

Guys, get a clue. Anybody, male or female, who is that self-centered and immature is not worth your time. If somebody you care about is treating you that way, the best thing for you (and for them!) is to call them on their bullshit. Don't encourage that kind of jackassery by playing along.

Or at least, if you are going to play along, realize that you've given up the right to bitch about it when they act this way. You are the one who is putting up with it, so don't act like THEY are the irrational one...they've figured out a way to get exactly what they want, and it's perfectly rational for them to continue milking this tactic for as long as you will put up with it. If it annoys the shit out of you but you still put up with it, then YOU are the one acting irrationally.

Mistake number three: you are looking through a man's eyes at a young woman's response to her fiance's being "hit on" by another woman. This is a losing proposition. Women are to be loved, admired and virtually worshipped, not "understood."

*Shudder* Worst. Advice. Ever.

If you find yourself unable to see through your partner's eyes, don't try to blame their gender for your failure to empathize. If you find yourself unable to understand what your partner is doing, don't blame their gender for your inability to communicate with them. For pity's sake, don't be such a coward. Don't use some pathetic cop-out about women being beyond male comprehension.

My partner and I have a long standing joke...whenever we squabble about something minor, one of us will break into mock-sobs and wail, "You just hate me because of my fat thighs, don't you?!"
LOL, my husband and I have a similar thing, when an arguement gets heated and one of us (or both of us realize it) we start to do kindergarten insults, it makes us laugh and then we can go back and talk about things more calmly.....

"you are a poopy head"

"oh, yeah, well you are a poopy head with cooties"

"oh, yeah! well, you are a poopy head with cooties, and big ears!!!"

by that time we are laughing so hard we aren't really mad anymore.

EXCELLENT ADVICE!!!

Don't just throw "I'm sorry" around like magical fairy dust.
It's not? Well, that explains all that hot water I never seemed to get myself out of...

Ah crap...I knew those 'sorries' wheren't worth the family cow...

First let me tell you that it is very difficult to remain friends after a relationship. It takes two very special people to do that.

You fiance sounds very in secure about the situation and the ex needs to understand that. Having a long distance relationship i'm sure isn't helping. Have you actually talked with your fiance about the situation with the ex and how you feel about it. If there is trust in your relationship there shouldn't be a problem with it. But.......that is easier said than done. PMS has nothing to do with it. She simply doesn't want her husband to dance with his ex girfriend at their wedding.

Personally, I think that it is inappropriate for the ex to ask you for a dance at your wedding. She needs to get over it.

Females are not nesacarily illogical, they just have different thought patterns from men. I could allude to the fact that men and women when they were children were genrally raised differently, But I currently lack the patience to do as such in depth.

Snipe this problem between the eyes at 700 yards.

Normally I dislike asking for advice on an Internet forum (for obvious reasons), BUT! In this case I am left more than just a little confused and wondering what the hell is going on.

My fiancée and I are to be married in less than 6 months time. Currently we're separated while she pursues her degree in the US and I teach in Japan (loads of fun). Until last week there has never been a problem with this arrangement, well, beyond just missing each other like crazy.

Last week, a female friend of mine (and former love interest, though it never went anywhere) asked me for a dance at the reception to say goodbye. Thinking nothing of it, I said that shouldn't be the problem and I would make the arrangements. My fiancée, when she found out about this was… upset to say the very least. Now, she doesn't think I am going to cheat on her, and she swears up and down that she knows I love her, but she is bound and convinced that this friend secretly has a romantic interest in me and is royally pissed that she would ask to dance with me at the wedding.

After a long talk I managed to convince her that I would talk with my friend and let her know in no uncertain terms that I am a taken man (I thought it would be obvious). However, Monday we had another conversation, this time about what I would do should some random girl fall in love with me. Again, she trusts me not to cheat on her, but apparently she's worried that some girl will come along and I am just too nice not to tell them off.

Oh, and she was also pissed off at me for not being jealous when she wanted me to be jealous. I really don't understand that part.

So, married men of General, and ladies, if you would please, someone tell me what is going on! Is she just getting nuts because of the wedding, do all women do this, what?

And before I get yelled at for my thread title, I extend that to men as well. I'm sure part of this is my fault somehow, but damned if I know how.


It is letting yourself off the hook to blame women, for one thing it suggests that as a man you cannot be expected to understand. You can, if you make a little effort.

She is a long way away, she has probably been tempted herself and is therefore worrying about you. You meanwhile are arranging to go out with an old flame. You might not see it this way, but that is because you choose not to.

Meanwhile, you are feeling nervous about getting married and unresolved affairs always play on the mind. So, you think you will be all sensible and mature. You have a lingering thing, but you can play it out, see what the old flame thinks and all the time you will be able to play the man who is off bounds as you are engaged.

You imply she is afflicted by jealousy, but at the same time, you are rather flattered by the attention and perhaps rather enjoy showing your fiancée that you are an attractive man and chatting about it on an internet message board.

All she needs is reassurance. Just cancel the dance. Tell her that you would not want to upset her. You have a choice, upset your old flame or your fiancee. Grow up and make the right choice. Even as the insensitive man that I am, she has my sympathy.

Females are not nesacarily illogical....

True, they are as bad as men.

We are primarily emotional animals, not logical. Not to see this lacks perception.

I hate to admit it, but I'm probably naive enough to have something like this happen to me. I used to go to pub quizes with a female friend who would from time to time tell me a woman was hitting on me, and I had no clue.
Obtuse, that's me.

But...I wouldn't fall for this one. The ex wants to do a little 'He may be yours now, but I had sex with him first' thing. She's up to no good here. I suspect that if you let the ex have her way she'll embarrass the hell out of you on your wedding day.

The reason you can't see it was well put by both Chunky Nuts and Smunkeeville. Woman are a little more devious and manipulative about these things. Men do not generally behave this way, so it's outside our frame of reference.

My lovely lady (Carisbrooke) agrees with me on that point.

*Shudder* Worst. Advice. Ever.

If you find yourself unable to see through your partner's eyes, don't try to blame their gender for your failure to empathize. If you find yourself unable to understand what your partner is doing, don't blame their gender for your inability to communicate with them. For pity's sake, don't be such a coward. Don't use some pathetic cop-out about women being beyond male comprehension.
I was trying to add a touch of humor. Obviously it didn't work. :rolleyes:

Sometimes the problem is communication, but more often it's an inability to see through each others' eyes, so to speak. Most women and most men find it difficult in the extreme to see things from each others' perspectives. This is wrong?

*arghhh runs away in frustration about how dumb inteligent men can be about stuff like this.*
Just because men are not instilled with the advanced set of symbolism that women are?

Theatricalis']Revel in your swineness.. and practice saying "Yes, dear"!:headbang:
Trolls come in female models too.

Of course, he's an ex so I get to laugh at my stupidity for staying with him that long and enjoy new sensible men.
Yes, yes we all remember the whiny threads. Don't remind me!

I broke off a frienship with a guy when I got married because I could see that in the future it would cause problems (more because the guy was in love with me than my husband being jealous)

Out of curiosity, how do you break off a friendship? Just stop calling them or answering their calls? Or saying it to them?

Out of curiosity, how do you break off a friendship? Just stop calling them or answering their calls? Or saying it to them?
well, most of the time I tell them that I don't want to continue the friendship (similar to breaking up, I guess)

this time however, it was a more pressing (so to speak) I had been married for all of 1 month and we were having a new years eve party at my house, everyone except me and "the friend" was outside smoking, and he gives me this speech (not 50 yards from where hubby is outside smoking) about how he has been in love with me forever and I told him that it was too late, he followed me to the bathroom and tried to kiss me, so I punched him in the face and pushed him into the sink and went outside......he didn't speak to me so much after that

you have received some excellent advice from the women on this forum. read it over again. maybe copy and paste it to look at later

because

its the wedding.

its only 6 months away, you arent there, and she is planning the most important day of her life. the stress is brutal and it is only going to get worse. the smallest detail can ruin all her planning. actually, there are no small details. everything must be perfect.

you are going to get into many more fights, small and large, before the big day. most of them will be about nothing. do what you can to reassure her and, if possible, find some way to take some of the burden off of her.

good luck

this time however, it was a more pressing (so to speak) I had been married for all of 1 month and we were having a new years eve party at my house, everyone except me and "the friend" was outside smoking, and he gives me this speech (not 50 yards from where hubby is outside smoking) about how he has been in love with me forever and I told him that it was too late, he followed me to the bathroom and tried to kiss me, so I punched him in the face and pushed him into the sink and went outside......he didn't speak to me so much after that
You are both looney. Good story though.

You are both looney. Good story though.
there may or may not have been a lot of alchohol involved.

If the wedding's big, and pretty close, yes, she's bound to be totally freaking out about that.

BUT.... dancing with a former girlfriend is bad enough, but dancing with her at a wedding is verging at unforgivable. See, weddings are all full of romance, love, dancing close together, fine dining and the obligatory lots of alcohol. When combined, girls see it all as an invitation to throw themselves at the nearest cute guy. Women are terrified of turning into their great aunt Selma, who smells of cat pee and lives alone. Listening to the radio recently, they were talking to people in their 50's and one woman wasn't married, she expressed an utter hatred of attending weddings, and being thronged by old ladies telling her that it was her turn next. She also expressed an enjoyment of funerals where she could turn around to same old ladies and tell them not to worry, it was their turn next....

See, it's not the fact that you danced with her. If it was a night club and you did exactly the same thing, it wouldn't have meant much, but to dance with her at a wedding puts images in her head of you dancing with her at YOUR wedding, and not necessarily with her.

I do understand why you are completely bewildered with the whole situation, but us women were born with a type of logic that you men have yet to come to understand. See, everything's a test. If you want to do something and tell her, she'll most likely smile and tell you to go ahead, and you will, but once the deed is done, you will pay emotionally for many, many years. Never, ever combine ex's, and romantic situations/settings, it's nothing more than a death wish. Oh, and a girl likes to see you're jealous if she does something similar - we like it that you care enough and want you to offer to fight for our honour, and also, the touch of emotion that comes with it, showing that you're upset will get her mothering instincts to come out, so you will be spoiled by her a bit. See! Start to think like a woman, and everything will work itself out!

See? I told you men are obtuse.
Only compared to the overly sensitive

I wouldn't feel bad about being a man and not understanding women. As a man, I don't understand men, so I really don't understand how a man could understand women.

listen to Carisbrooke. :p woman knows what she's talking about. men and women can be equally dense when it comes to relationships, no one is at fault here. but as a woman, i can honestly say, we can be a spiteful bunch. the 'ex love interest' is in it for hurt/spite/ego. you cannot see it because you are trusting, and you can't see why she would do something so manipulative. your fiance, well, she can see it because she is a woman, therefore understanding of the woman logic. if you dance with this ex at your wedding you are a fool. the manipulative ex wins, and your wife gets made the fool, on the biggest day of her life. (believe me, this is not a good start to a life together) if your future wife tells you that it will be 'ok' under specific circumstances, it is simply to try and appease you (because she LOVES you). believe me, she is not happy about it, and would MUCH rather you tell your supposed 'friend' the dance will not happen, and that good bye happened long ago. just because you feel you have made it apparent you are taken, and you believe she respects that, means nothing. fidelity does not seem to be a high ranking priority for your 'love square' ex girl - and getting you to cheat on your wedding day, ooo, now wouldn't that be her best accomplishment to date. :headbang: really, womens minds can, and do, think like this. she is up to no good, end it before it starts. save yourself, and your future wife the pain and embarassment that this will most inevitably bring. ex's have no place at weddings, period. and certainly NOT for a specific requested dance, to that "special song" from your prom, it's disgusting. personally, i would revoke the invite from that woman, she more than likely will be nothing but trouble, with or without the dance.

listen to Carisbrooke. :p woman knows what she's talking about. men and women can be equally dense when it comes to relationships, no one is at fault here. but as a woman, i can honestly say, we can be a spiteful bunch. the 'ex love interest' is in it for hurt/spite/ego. you cannot see it because you are trusting, and you can't see why she would do something so manipulative. your fiance, well, she can see it because she is a woman, therefore understanding of the woman logic. if you dance with this ex at your wedding you are a fool. the manipulative ex wins, and your wife gets made the fool, on the biggest day of her life. (believe me, this is not a good start to a life together) if your future wife tells you that it will be 'ok' under specific circumstances, it is simply to try and appease you (because she LOVES you). believe me, she is not happy about it, and would MUCH rather you tell your supposed 'friend' the dance will not happen, and that good bye happened long ago. just because you feel you have made it apparent you are taken, and you believe she respects that, means nothing. fidelity does not seem to be a high ranking priority for your 'love square' ex girl - and getting you to cheat on your wedding day, ooo, now wouldn't that be her best accomplishment to date. :headbang: really, womens minds can, and do, think like this. she is up to no good, end it before it starts. save yourself, and your future wife the pain and embarassment that this will most inevitably bring. ex's have no place at weddings, period. and certainly NOT for a specific requested dance, to that "special song" from your prom, it's disgusting. personally, i would revoke the invite from that woman, she more than likely will be nothing but trouble, with or without the dance.

Thank you. :)

Seriously Nervun, I do hope that you get it by now and listen to what, it seems to me, the majority of people on this thread are saying. Don't even think of dancing with this woman.
I told my boyfriend about this and he read the thread and posted HIS male opinion, I told my daughter about it and she said 'oh my god! he should so NOT dance with her..thats horrible'

Let us know how you get on.

Ok, after reading 8 pages I've come to the conclusion that:

A. I'm an idiot (We knew this already).

B. I'm also clueless (We also knew this already).

C. My friend is being manipulative (I didn't know this, but aparently everyone else can see this).

D. I have a rather large problem that needs to be delt with (But I think the wise choice may be to wait till May when I can physically be with my fiancee and she can SEE me make this choice).

And finally, E. I'm a clueless idiot (Some truths need to be repeated).

Did I miss anything?

Ok, after reading 8 pages I've come to the conclusion that:

A. I'm an idiot (We knew this already).

B. I'm also clueless (We also knew this already).

C. My friend is being manipulative (I didn't know this, but aparently everyone else can see this).

D. I have a rather large problem that needs to be delt with (But I think the wise choice may be to wait till May when I can physically be with my fiancee and she can SEE me make this choice).

And finally, E. I'm a clueless idiot (Some truths need to be repeated).

Did I miss anything?
Just one question to clarify, did you say earlier that it has been nine years since your "romance" with your friend or that she was just getting out of a nine year relationship?

Mistake number two: you told her you danced with another woman. Never do that again.Someone else will tell her.. Sooner or later..

Here is how I see it.. I did nothing wrong.. So I have nothing to hide.

Someone else will tell her.. Sooner or later..

Here is how I see it.. I did nothing wrong.. So I have nothing to hide.

He speaks the truth. She heard it from you, so she's not worried that you are cheating on her, but if she heard it from somebody else, especially if someone who loves to gossip, the cheating alert would go off immediately. So you actually did the right thing.

Also, if she thinks you should be more jealous, you probably should be. She needs to know, with the wedding coming up and the two of you on different continents, that you still care about her enough to fight over her. Even if you are not a jealous person, just act a bit more protective, and I think it'll be a lot better.

I was hoping for advice to do preventative work to keep it from happening again and that sort of thing.
Wall yourself up in a room to which only she has the key. Nothing else will work I'm afraid.

Just one question to clarify, did you say earlier that it has been nine years since your "romance" with your friend or that she was just getting out of a nine year relationship?
A bit of both actually. What happened between us was nine years ago, and she just broke up (I think, I don't actually know as she refuses to tell me) with her boy friend of around 10 years.

Like I said, it was a very complicated situation and one I did not fully understand till it was too late. Once I did I backed off compleatly andweent back to being friends.

Wall yourself up in a room to which only she has the key. Nothing else will work I'm afraid.
Well, as long as said room has a 'net connection, that might actually work. :D

Someone else will tell her.. Sooner or later..

Here is how I see it.. I did nothing wrong.. So I have nothing to hide.


Agreed, you did nothing wrong, but you're making your soon to be wife stupidly jealous. If she finds out some other way, then tell her it meant nothing, and you didn't think it was worth telling her. But geez man, never do or say anything that will make the woman you will rely on for meals, clean clothes, your wedding, offspring and some fun between the sheets, hopefully for the rest of your lives, that you shared a dance in a romantic setting with your ex girlfriend. Trust me, us women don't think of it as a simple goodbye (men have simpler minds and are more straightforward about these things), we think of it as a means to get her filthy claws into our man, and indeed, there might be some truth to it that you never picked up on. Best advice, only allow contact with your ex if your arm is firmly planted around your fiancees shoulders, and make it as platonic as humanly possible

Agreed, you did nothing wrong, but you're making your soon to be wife stupidly jealous. If she finds out some other way, then tell her it meant nothing, and you didn't think it was worth telling her. But geez man, never do or say anything that will make the woman you will rely on for meals, clean clothes, your wedding, offspring and some fun between the sheets, hopefully for the rest of your lives, that you shared a dance in a romantic setting with your ex girlfriend. Trust me, us women don't think of it as a simple goodbye (men have simpler minds and are more straightforward about these things), we think of it as a means to get her filthy claws into our man, and indeed, there might be some truth to it that you never picked up on. Best advice, only allow contact with your ex if your arm is firmly planted around your fiancees shoulders, and make it as platonic as humanly possible
I'm starting to understand this.

I could understand why your fiance might be a little upset at this woman. If I was in her position, and an old love interest of my future wife wanted to dance with her at the wedding, I could see how I might view it as inappropriate.

Also, if I looked at it from the former love interests point of view, I would understand how it would be inappropriate to go to her wedding and ask to dance with her. There was a former emotional attachment, which is my opinion is worse then a physical attachment, and it just doesn't seem right.

I'm starting to understand this.

AS long as you understand one basic rule: What women say and what women mean are in NO WAY related.

Wall yourself up in a room to which only she has the key. Nothing else will work I'm afraid.Well, as long as said room has a 'net connection, that might actually work. :Dsometimes The Internet is one of the biggest threats to a married couple.

Also, if I looked at it from the former love interests point of view, I would understand how it would be inappropriate to go to her wedding and ask to dance with her. There was a former emotional attachment, which is my opinion is worse then a physical attachment, and it just doesn't seem right.

Actually, this is a very good point. Men and women react differently when confronted with the news that their partner has cheated. For men, their wives having a physical relationship is worst, but or women, having an emotional relationship is more likely to be grounds for divorce. Reestablishing in some way the emotional bond you had with your ex is a big no-no.

I feel more threatened by the girl my husband used to love than the three girls he had nothing more than physical relationships with all put together (but not much, luckily for him!)

AS long as you understand one basic rule: What women say and what women mean are in NO WAY related.
It would be nice if you ladies fixed that and just told us before we wander into these mine fields.

I mean, honestly, my fiancee told me she has been jealous of my friend ever since she met her the first time. If I had KNOWN this, I would have never agreed to the dance in the first place.

(Her responce to that, BTW, was surprise that I didn't know).

Someone else will tell her.. Sooner or later..
Here is how I see it.. I did nothing wrong.. So I have nothing to hide.

Agreed, you did nothing wrong, but you're making your soon to be wife stupidly jealous. First, "your soon to be wife":confused: You are addressing the wrong person.. I am not marring her.(I could never accept a possessive wife/girlfriend)

Second, Nervun is not making her act stupid .. She is doing that to herself.

It would be nice if you ladies fixed that and just told us before we wander into these mine fields.

I mean, honestly, my fiancee told me she has been jealous of my friend ever since she met her the first time. If I had KNOWN this, I would have never agreed to the dance in the first place.

(Her responce to that, BTW, was surprise that I didn't know).

OK, well, next good lesson to remember is: Never spend any time in physical contact with an ex. Ever

First, "your soon to be wife":confused: You are addressing the wrong person.. I am not marring her.(I could never accept a possessive wife/girlfriend)

Second, Nervun is not making her act stupid .. She is doing that to herself.

Apologies, tired, pregnant, was not paying full attention...sorry:confused:

Apologies, tired, pregnant, was not paying full attention...sorry:confused:lets kiss and make up.

Men and women react differently when confronted with the news that their partner has cheated. For men, their wives having a physical relationship is worst, but or women, having an emotional relationship is more likely to be grounds for divorce. Reestablishing in some way the emotional bond you had with your ex is a big no-no.

I feel more threatened by the girl my husband used to love than the three girls he had nothing more than physical relationships with all put together (but not much, luckily for him!)yeah This is a good point.. for sure.

OK, well, next good lesson to remember is: Never spend any time in physical contact with an ex. Everso I guess sex is out of the question?

just kidding :D

To all the women that have catapaulted into this thread and heaped coals onto NEVRUN's head, shame on you (yeah, I'm looking at you Carisbrooke).

First of all, you make it sound as if once you are engaged, married, or in an otherwise serious relationship, your only social duty is to appease your chosen partner absoloutly, to the point of abandoning all personal judgement, and external social responsibility. You've told NEVRUN to change a fundamental quality of his personality - being unnasumming, friendly, and open - in order to satisfy his partner's irrational jelousies. And they ARE irrational, though understandable, given the distance and whatnot. Any serious relationship that I can concieve of ever being in contains independance, trust, and a bit of a light outlook. Though our partners in life are extremely important, they are not the only people who we depend on socially, or that depend on us.
So the old flame wants one last dance? Fine, let her have it - she'll just see how much she's missing, and how much I've got. that would be *my* reaction.

Second, everyone using all these gender-specific phrases such as "men are so OBTUSE11!!!!" and "women just THINK differently!" please, give it a break. Women do NOT think "differently". Men are not "obtuse". In fact, NEVRUN's situation with his fiance has come up countless times between my boyfriend and I the other way around. HE's the one that's always seeing a million layers of meaning in everygoddam little thing, and freaking out about (to me) usual types of interactions. Luckily, we also have great communication, so we've sorted these issues out progressively. Anyway, this experience has taught me to throw away all these hoaxy molds relating to how men and women "view" things oh-so-differently.

To all the women that have catapaulted into this thread and heaped coals onto NEVRUN's head, shame on you (yeah, I'm looking at you Carisbrooke).
Well, just to be fair, I DID ask for their opinions.

Well, just to be fair, I DID ask for their opinions.
I realize that, but to me it's upsetting to have what I consider irrational, exagerated behaviour vindicated as some sort of "right" women have because of their superior understanding of all things relationship- or attraction- related, especially as it is being done BY other women! As a woman, this is bordering on ofensive to me. If someone is jelous...well, that unfortunate, and in this case, not terribly justified. But don't legitimize it on the grounds of gender.

Arg. The more I think about it the more annoyed I get. SOMEONE AGREE WITH ME GODDAMIT.

I realize that, but to me it's upsetting to have what I consider irrational, exagerated behaviour vindicated as some sort of "right" women have because of their superior understanding of all things relationship- or attraction- related, especially as it is being done BY other women! As a woman, this is bordering on ofensive to me. If someone is jelous...well, that unfortunate, and in this case, not terribly justified. But don't legitimize it on the grounds of gender.

I don't see it as a right a woman has... I see it as a right every person in a relationship has. The right to be emotional, the right to react on it to some extend, and the right to expect the partner to set things right again as far as possible. And, be honest : How much effort will it take to tell his former love interest that he's not going to dance with her to that special song?
I admit it'll take some effort to reassure her generally, as she seems to be feeling the pressure of the long distance, but hey. He shouldn't change, after all he does care for her. He should just find a way to make her feel that a bit more right now.

Arg. The more I think about it the more annoyed I get. SOMEONE AGREE WITH ME GODDAMIT.
I tend to agree
*ducks from flying objects*

I personally firmly believe that anyone who can love me needs to accept the fact that I have close female friends. I've ended relationships over it, but same as no one could convince me to ditch my family, I will never ditch my close friends.

And, be honest : How much effort will it take to tell his former love interest that he's not going to dance with her to that special song?
Uh... ^_^;;;; she is a friend of more than 15 years. She also is one of my groommen (Groomsmaids? We never did figure out a name and I refuse to call them My Girls, no matter if my fiancee thinks that's funny). Believe you me, the fallout from this is not going to be good no matter what I do.

Uh... ^_^;;;; she is a friend of more than 15 years. She also is one of my groommen (Groomsmaids? We never did figure out a name and I refuse to call them My Girls, no matter if my fiancee thinks that's funny). Believe you me, the fallout from this is not going to be good no matter what I do.

Seriously. IF (big if) that woman is a friend, and just a friend, nothing more nothing less, she would understand if you told her that you had been a bit rash in promissing her that dance, and that give that that day will be a special day for youself and your fiance, YOUR day to be precise, you feel you should devote your entire attention to her and therefore would rather not dance with her that day.

Seriously. IF (big if) that woman is a friend, and just a friend, nothing more nothing less, she would understand if you told her that you had been a bit rash in promissing her that dance, and that give that that day will be a special day for youself and your fiance, YOUR day to be precise, you feel you should devote your entire attention to her and therefore would rather not dance with her that day.
Here's hoping. I have a feeling that this is going to involve explosions of some kind though.

Here's hoping. I have a feeling that this is going to involve explosions of some kind though.

In that case you might want to ask yourself if your fiance doesn't have a point after all....

In that case you might want to ask yourself if your fiance doesn't have a point after all....
I'd say no, no she doesn't (clearly no offence to your fiancee, NER...) but I know that personally, if I asked a good friend of mine for a final dance at their wedding, and they agreed, only to say no because their wife was against it, I would be hurt. Granted, I wouldn't go to explosive levels, and would just go along with it, but it is only a dance. It's not like she asked him for a goodbye screw. I don't view it as being hugely different from the father dancing with the bride and giving her away to the husband. No, there is no ritual behind this dance, but there is significance. If the girl asked 6 months in advance, I read that as her seeing it as important, not her trying to be sneeky.

Y'know, there is some good advice being given in this thread, so I'm gonna mostly leave it alone, but I have to say I'm a bit offended at some of the sexist two-liners people are throwing in.

I'd say no, no she doesn't (clearly no offence to your fiancee, NER...) but I know that personally, if I asked a good friend of mine for a final dance at their wedding, and they agreed, only to say no because their wife was against it, I would be hurt. Granted, I wouldn't go to explosive levels, and would just go along with it, but it is only a dance. It's not like she asked him for a goodbye screw. I don't view it as being hugely different from the father dancing with the bride and giving her away to the husband. No, there is no ritual behind this dance, but there is significance. If the girl asked 6 months in advance, I read that as her seeing it as important, not her trying to be sneeky.

I somehow assumed NERVUN had figured out by now why his fiance was against it, or rather why she's hurt by that. So the reason would not really be his fiance being against it, but him having understood that this would seriously hurt her feelings. Or rather, already has.
I would understand if his friend was disappointed with this, but to be hurt by it would imply more feelings than there ought to be...

I somehow assumed NERVUN had figured out by now why his fiance was against it, or rather why she's hurt by that. So the reason would not really be his fiance being against it, but him having understood that this would seriously hurt her feelings. Or rather, already has.
I would understand if his friend was disappointed with this, but to be hurt by it would imply more feelings than there ought to be...
sorry, that was a poor way of phrasing it on my part...I meant to say that it started because his fiancee got upset, not that that was the final reason why he said no himself. That probably makes no sense.

(NERVUN, divert your eyes. Look over there! A dancing squirrel! (http://www.photogalaxy.com/photos/chennmel-32.jpg))
But I still disagree. I could see myself being quite hurt if a close friend did that. I really do look at my closest friends as being a part of my family. They are my brother and sister. If the female one refused me something like that, when she understood how much it would mean to me, I think I would have every right to be hurt by it, and feasibly could be the case. Again, I wouldn't show anything, but thats how I am. At the same time, I know if I said my female friend couldn't have a goodbye dance, there would be tears galore.

(I told you you should have diverted your eyes)

sorry, that was a poor way of phrasing it on my part...I meant to say that it started because his fiancee got upset, not that that was the final reason why he said no himself. That probably makes no sense.

(NERVUN, divert your eyes. Look over there! A dancing squirrel! (http://www.photogalaxy.com/photos/chennmel-32.jpg))
But I still disagree. I could see myself being quite hurt if a close friend did that. I really do look at my closest friends as being a part of my family. They are my brother and sister. If the female one refused me something like that, when she understood how much it would mean to me, I think I would have every right to be hurt by it, and feasibly could be the case. Again, I wouldn't show anything, but thats how I am. At the same time, I know if I said my female friend couldn't have a goodbye dance, there would be tears galore.

(I told you you should have diverted your eyes)


I think that when you simply have to know your priorities... Is it more important to you that your fiance (who is in a difficult position at the moment anyway, due to the distance. I still believe if it weren't for that, she would not have that much of an issue with it) is not hurt, or that your friend is not hurt?
There are situations you can't get out of withouthurting someone in some way, and this seems to be one of them. You can tryr and limit the hurt with a long talk and serious good explanations, though. But that will only help you so far.

I think that when you simply have to know your priorities... Is it more important to you that your fiance (who is in a difficult position at the moment anyway, due to the distance. I still believe if it weren't for that, she would not have that much of an issue with it) is not hurt, or that your friend is not hurt?
There are situations you can't get out of withouthurting someone in some way, and this seems to be one of them. You can tryr and limit the hurt with a long talk and serious good explanations, though. But that will only help you so far.
I agree on so many points. First of all, definatly distance is a huge factor. I almost would say talk about it when you two are together again if possible...but its never good to reopen old wounds. they tend to bleed more.
I know he can't get away without hurting someone, and his first priority should of course be his future wife...but I can't help but feel bad for his friend. Marriage is a big change, and her wording it as a "goodbye" dance, shows that it is something that she percieves as being the end of something...not nessicarily the friendship, but more a certain stage of the friendship.

To all the women that have catapaulted into this thread and heaped coals onto NEVRUN's head, shame on you (yeah, I'm looking at you Carisbrooke).

I'm looking right back, and not even blinking. :p

He asked for advice, and an explanation of her thinking, I gave him MY advice and MY explanation for both his Fiancee and his 'friend and former love interest'. I don't know any of them, and I am am sure that Nervun is only going to listen to sensible advice and not do something totally dumb because a bunch of strangers on the internet advised him too. That said, I think that some people on this thread can not have read throught the whole thing, especially towards the end (it has got rather long!) As they seem to think that he has already danced with this woman and his girlfriend has found out.

I think the bottom line is this, (please note the I THINK)

Nervun has a long standing friendship with a woman he had the hots for in the past, nine years ago, besides the fact that she was in a year old relationship, this woman had sex with him and also with another guy. So this tells me that she is not one to always respect relationships. Nevrun was hurt by this womans rejection of him as a partner and so settles for friendship, eventually he is happy that he did.

Nine years down the line, Nervun has met a woman that he loves and wants to make his wife. She is introduced to this female friend and gets signals from her that put her immediately on her guard as a woman, but says nothing. Nervun is oblivious to this, and so his fiancee never mentions it. She never mentions it even when he chooses this woman as an integral part of their wedding, even though the woman is now single again.

BUT the final straw in this is that the 'friend' makes a point of asking for a 'goodbye' dance, in advance, with a 'special secret song' from a shared past together and Nervun agrees to it. His fiancee has finally blown and said to him 'dont you see what she is doing?' or 'she fancies you like mad and you are sending her wrong signals' or something similar. He then goes on the back foot and does the 'I have done nothing wrong!' thing, which he hasn't. Nervun, YOU HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG. The only thing that you have done is to be nice and trusting and open and honest, all of which are good things. BUT as a woman I can see what your fiancee is upset about, as you know by my posts!! lol and it seems its not just me that can see it, a good number of the other posters can see it as clear as day too.

The fact that your fiancee has said that she will go hide in the toilet so that you can do your goodbye dance, did not tell you that it was not a good idea to do the dance, because you are thinking of it in a totally different way, you are thinking of it as a dance with an old friend. BUT its not that to your fiancee, and I really don't think it is that to your 'former love interest' friend either. I also think that you know all of this deep down but find it so hard to imagine why she would behave like this, and you even said yourself you find it hard to imagine why two women would be interested in you at all!

At the end of the day you love your Fiancee and want her to be your wife, to live together and be happy together through thick and thin, grow old together and make babies and a great home together. am I right in this?

Your Fiancee feels, (justifiably I think) threatened by a woman, a woman who may or may not have designs on you. She has decided to tell you how she feels about this woman and you have dismissed her feelings of concern, because they are so far removed from how you see it. Your fiancee has decided that to keep you happy that she will let this woman whom she feels threatend by, make a very public statement at your wedding.

I think that she may feel VERY differently on the day, and JUST because of that, it is worth saying to your friend in VERY clear easy to understand words, something like I know that you want to dance with me at my wedding, but you do need to know that I am doing this because you are my friend, but you need to know that is ALL it is for me, we do not need to say 'goodbye' we did that a long time ago, this is a dance between friends and I think that unless you can honestly see it like that too, then maybe its not a good idea for us to dance at all. I love my fiancee and she comes first for me in ALL things, I will not hurt her and won't allow anyone else too either. I am no longer intersted in you as anything more than a casual friend and have not been for a long time. Also maybe say that you don't think the special song from your prom is a good idea now that you come to think about it, and that you will dance to something of your choice that has no conections to your long gone past, as that is not aprorpriate on your wedding day.

You know that I dont think you should dance with this woman at all, and that most of the posters on here feel the same. I think it could be something that eats away at your fiancee for the rest of your married life. I think you need to remove yourself and look at this from an outside point of view.

You do want to be happy, do the thing that will give you the best chance of that.

I am also sending you a big hug, :fluffle: and I was not meaning to pile crap on your head, I do know that you have no idea why this is such a big deal and was trying to help you understand. I am quite a nice lady really, and very rarely kill or maim people....honest :)

Carisbrooke, as a guy, I'm going to have to thank you for taking the time to help out Nevrun (as well as those of us out there who are facing similar situations but in different contexts). If we only had more women who were willing to dissect the entire situation for what it is to women, then perhaps men might not be so "oblivious" or "obtuse" to it all.

I had a similar situation with my current girlfriend, when an old love came back into my life ever so briefly. Thank God I had the intuition to send her packing again.

But enough about me.

Good luck to ya Nevrun on the wedding. Enjoy it for what it's worth! In fact, you should tell your soon-to-be-wife "Honey, I actually get women now! I actually understand them!"

On second thought, that'll probably get her thinking you're doing something you're not supposed to be doing. That, and the fact that although Carisbrooke has helped, it's still a helpless cause for men everywhere.

I agree with you Kreitzmoorland.

AS long as you understand one basic rule: What women say and what women mean are in NO WAY related.
Uh, can you please stop talking for all women?

It may be true for you and the women in question but personally, I don't want be portrayed as someone who can't talk openly or deal with problems honestly and healthily just because of your failings (and yes, I do see it as a failing if you can't say what you mean in a relationship, and it gets even worse when you blame it on your gender).

On the whole situation in general, personally, if I was bothered by it, I'd see it as an indicator of something wrong. The only cases where I think I'd be justified in taking it badly is a) if the arrangements/the actual thing were kept from me (but even then, if I really trusted him and trusted his love enough, I'd most probably be able to accept that it didn't mean anything - though I might doubt it and need reassurance) and b) if, for some reason (I'm thinking mainly depression here), I knew it would hurt me a lot, I told him so, and he didn't try to work out some solution to stop me getting hurt.

The main thing I'd comment on is that it's utterly ridiculous of her to not let you stop it from happening. If she's not gonna let you stop the song playing, and is saying you should dance with your friend, despite your attempts to stop it for her sake, she has no right to get annoyed at you when it's her that's now creating the situation.

The only fool-proof advice I can give (not knowing the relationships and individuals and situations well enough) is to talk to her. That's the only way you can find out each others points of view properly and work out a solution. If you can't do that - if you can't sort out this problem through talking, trying to understand, and compromising - I really would seriously think about how strong the relationship is because being able to do that is vital for a longterm relationship.

If we only had more women who were willing to dissect the entire situation for what it is to women, then perhaps men might not be so "oblivious" or "obtuse" to it all.
(bold is mine)
There is no single view for "what it is to women".

It seems to me the main reason people are "obtuse" and "oblivious" is because they're trying to work out what a whole gender thinks (which is impossible and therefore people just get lazy and make up stereotypes) instead of actually taking the effort to look at the person you're in a relationship with, and trying to understand how they think and feel.

Having women claim to give some definitive view of "how women think" really doesn't help the situation at all. If you think you can guess how the women in the situation feels then fine - but stress that it's only a guess (just because you're a woman, you don't know how other women feel) and don't say it applies to all women.

I think the bottom line is this, (please note the I THINK)

I don't think I claimed to be talking for all women, if I did I am sorry, because I don't, can't and shouldn't. I know that all women are different, but I am just offering MY opinions on the situation. I know that women do not all think alike, but I have much experience of how lots of women operate and as Nervun asked WHY his fiancee was reacting to the situation in the way she was I attempted to explain it from my point of view as a woman and also using my own long experience of how other women have, can and do behave. I see that many other people on the thread agreed with my take on the situation, so I think I am safe to say that I am not alone in thinking like this, but that in itself does not make it right. I also think the fact that Nervun seemed to feel that he now has an understanding of why his fiancee MIGHT feel the way she does can only be a good thing surely? Even if it is not the ACTUAL reason. As someone who was married for over 17 years, I know some of the things that can make a marriage good, and I know some of the things that can make a marriage bad. Starting out on your married life together with an issue like this hanging between you is one of the things that can make it bad. He has talked to his fiancee, he has talked and so has she, but he didn't understand what she was getting at, and now maybe he does. If it isn't what she was getting at then I hope that at least it has given him an insight into a possible reason at the very least, given him a window into thinking in a different way so that they can work it out together, other than him just thinking that females were illogical and thats it.

I am sorry if I have pissed people off, I hate doing that, in real life it makes me feel bad and it does on here too.

It may be true for you and the women in question but personally, I don't want be portrayed as someone who can't talk openly or deal with problems honestly and healthily just because of your failings (and yes, I do see it as a failing if you can't say what you mean in a relationship, and it gets even worse when you blame it on your gender).

Oh and I DO talk with my boyfriend about everything ALL the time, openly, honestly and healthily. Thats what I was trying to do on this thread too...
I also talk to other women too, and I KNOW how many of them operate with the men in their lives, it's a fact, and it may have nothing to do with gender at all, and more to do with culture and learned bahviour.

One thing that we all seem to have forgotten here too is that Nervun fiancee is Japanese and that she may be operating from a very different standpoint just because of that. He does make a point of saying just that in one of his posts.

The several pages of what seems to be banter between the thoughts of men and women is amusing, at best.

Male or female, you set yourself up for failure, by generalising either gender. There may be potential similarities between a group of males and the same with a group of females. However, it's merely that. Potential similarities.

Yes, maybe sixty percent of males just want to sate their sexual appetites with whomever possesses the proper genitalia. However, what about that fourty percent? Then again, aren't statistics relative? There will always be the exception to the general rule, when it comes down to the individual.

Saying one side is highly illogical, when you fail to comprehend that side just means you possess an inability to either stop and think about the other party and/or are unable to see any perspectives other than your own.

Saying someone is merely insecure, controlling, or whatever adjective you would prefer to use in lieu of the aforementioned, only applies a label, in one's mind, to this person. It does not go about trying to understand how or why this person is responding thusly, nor does it even come close to trying to find a solution.

A little understanding and communication can go a long way. I honestly do not percieve the fiancee acting in a controlling manner. It could be a degree of paranoia, but more or less I think it is concern of another person potentially trying to move in on her. Whether or not this is the case is irrelevant, as currently this is what is percieved by her. Your, as well as her own, actions are going to determine how much more this predicament is going to affect the relationship.

The advice given to seperate with your fiancee was poor. To say she is controlling.. There's no real clear indication that she has had and will continue to produce tendencies that show she wants to have control over your actions. Again, I do not think this is the case, and it's more over protective concern of someone she loves.

Another post stated she perhaps may have started having interest in other males. This, while a slim possibility, does not have anything to support it.

I think I have grown somewhat tangential from my original reason of posting as well as have spread my thoughts too thinly to continue to elaborate on my analysis.

Really, this is not about men and women. Women are not from Venus and men are not from Mars. It's a matter of the everyday human being, unable to see the world from any vantage point, but their own. You will achieve a higher level of understanding towards people you are concerned about when you are capable of seeing things from their perspective and using this knowledge to be a bit more considerate of their current affairs and thoughts.

A little understanding and communication can go a long way. I honestly do not percieve the fiancee acting in a controlling manner. It could be a degree of paranoia, but more or less I think it is concern of another person potentially trying to move in on her.
i think the upshot of all this is that you have to talk to your fiancee, not just do what she says but communicate and find out from her what she feels and honestly try to understand her position. like i said in my post before, from there you can work out a solution together be it her understanding and accepting your point of view that the dance is nothing more than an innocent dance between friends, or accepting and accomodating her point of view of being threatened by this old flame of yours (ie not dancing)... you can choose to dance or not to dance, but what's important is that you come to the decision together with your fiancee having reached a mutual decision, and not just done whatever she says for you to do without your understanding (or even worse just do what you feel like and not take her feelings into consideration of course)

again, that's just my opinion. take it or leave it.

Carisbrooke, as a guy, I'm going to have to thank you for taking the time to help out Nevrun (as well as those of us out there who are facing similar situations but in different contexts). If we only had more women who were willing to dissect the entire situation for what it is to women, then perhaps men might not be so "oblivious" or "obtuse" to it all.welcome to The NSG Forum --Helping Clueless Martians since 1982-- we are open 24 hours a day,7 days a week..

:D :D :cool: :D

I once had a problem with one of my boyfriend's exes, with whom he keeps in vague contact. Although I am willing to admit that this was in part due to feeling threatened or something, it was more to do with the shoddy treatment meted out to him by her. Rather than expect him to instinctively realise I had a problem with the woman, I simply told him...and for that matter, I told him why I felt the way I did. (Note: I did not stipulate that he should end contact with her or anything like that; I don't consider that my place at all. I simply thought he ought to be made aware of it).

So, the point is, while I can understand Nervun's fiancee's problem, I can't understand why she expected that he would just have known it existed if she never told him she had an issue with his ex. Communication is absolutely key to a healthy relationship; I can understand that it's difficult to bring up a sensitive issue if there's a chance you'll upset a happy applecart, but if the relationship means enough to you, it has to be done - to not do so often leads to resentment in the long-term. Successfully thrashing out issues can also strengthen a relationship. To me, her offence here is more symptomatic of a lack of communication about such issues rather than about this specific incident per se.

As Kreitzmoorland says, trust and independent lives are important in a relationship. I can understand a mild annoyance in this circumstance I admit, but I agree with Kreitz in that, if it must be seen in competitive terms by the woman/women involved, Nervun's fiancee has 'won'. As Glitziness and Salias have already correctly pointed out, every woman (and every man for that matter) has a different take on things, so to lump us all in one bracket is not entirely wise, and indeed borders on offensive. Again, as has been said, the only way for Nevrun to know and understand his fiancee's position is to talk to her. But that has to work both ways.

At any rate, Nervun, let me echo the sentiment that I don't think you've done anything wrong here. And best of luck with it all!

First of all, you make it sound as if once you are engaged, married, or in an otherwise serious relationship, your only social duty is to appease your chosen partner absoloutly, to the point of abandoning all personal judgement, and external social responsibility.
It's not your responsibility, but it should be your first priority. When you get married you should put your spouse above all things, even yourself. If you have to make a choice between a spouse and a friend, the answer will almost always be your spouse. It's called commitment. If you want to be in a lifelong relationship with someone, you have to be a little less selfish and a little more grown up and mature than running around whining about little stuff like a child "it's my friend, I want to do what I want to do" it's pathetic. My grandma always used to say "do you want to be right or do you want to be married?", if you want to be right all the damn time you are going to have a crappy marriage, and if you can't sacrifice anything at all, how do you expect your partner to sacrifice for you? (and believe me marriage is all about sacrifice sometimes)




You've told NEVRUN to change a fundamental quality of his personality - being unnasumming, friendly, and open - in order to satisfy his partner's irrational jelousies. And they ARE irrational, though understandable, given the distance and whatnot.

If you want to understand where someone is coming from you have to understand how they think. I understand why she was mad, and it's not irrational. The fact that you think it is, makes me realize that you also can't see the situation for what it is.


Any serious relationship that I can concieve of ever being in contains independance, trust, and a bit of a light outlook.
I think you and I probably have vastly different views of marriage.

Though our partners in life are extremely important, they are not the only people who we depend on socially, or that depend on us.
no, but you should be eachother's first priority, there is not room in a marriage for anything else. You are a team, no, you are one, you can't fight against eachother and expect to make it out okay, it would be like tying your arms to one horse and your legs to another and having them run in two different directions.

So the old flame wants one last dance? Fine, let her have it - she'll just see how much she's missing, and how much I've got. that would be *my* reaction.
a last dance at his wedding, which is not only manipulative, but it's unneeded, it's hurtful to his spouse, it undermines his marriage, and to be truthful she is trying to play both of them, she wants him to feel guilty for getting married, and she wants to make the bride feel insecure, whether she accomplishes either, it doesn't matter, the fact that she would even pull such a stunt proves that she isn't mature enough to keep around.

Second, everyone using all these gender-specific phrases such as "men are so OBTUSE11!!!!" and "women just THINK differently!" please, give it a break. Women do NOT think "differently". Men are not "obtuse". In fact, NEVRUN's situation with his fiance has come up countless times between my boyfriend and I the other way around. HE's the one that's always seeing a million layers of meaning in everygoddam little thing, and freaking out about (to me) usual types of interactions. Luckily, we also have great communication, so we've sorted these issues out progressively. Anyway, this experience has taught me to throw away all these hoaxy molds relating to how men and women "view" things oh-so-differently.
Men and women are different, we have different roles in the world and see things differently. Every woman and man are different, just because I am a woman and I see things one way and you don't doesn't make you less of a woman or me less of a woman it just means we are different.

NERVUN, asked for our opinion, wanted to know why she acted this way, he seemed confused. Reading it I knew exactly why I would have acted that way, so I responded.

Why does everyone insist that it's "NEVRUN" and not "NERVUN"? :confused:

*hugs Smunkeeville*

I have to agree with you, and you put it so much more eloquently than I do...

I thought that I had made it clear all along that what I was saying was just my own opinions...but I was clearly not clear enough...clearly.

Male or female, you set yourself up for failure, by generalising either gender.
.............
Saying someone is merely insecure, controlling, or whatever adjective you would prefer to use in lieu of the aforementioned, only applies a label.. You advice is an oxymoron.

First you tell him not to "Generalize" (and I tend to agree with that).. Which means we should try to judge individuals one at a time..

Then you turn around and say NOT to do that.. because that would be "labeling " her :confused:

He is already very confused(you are messing him up further).. If you are going to give him advice.. at least try to Make up your mind beforehand..

dp

Why does everyone insist that it's "NEVRUN" and not "NERVUN"? :confused:

I had realised my typing mistake earlier and gone back to rectify it, I think it just trips off the fingers more easily.....I can only offer my most abject and sincere apology for not using the proper spelling of your name Nervun.

:(

Why does everyone insist that it's "NEVRUN" and not "NERVUN"? :confused:It might be it's phonologically closer to what might be expected of a word in english. But I'd have to research it to be sure. If you give me a half a million $ grant, I'm sure I can get a team to get to the bottom of this. ;)

Why does everyone insist that it's "NEVRUN" and not "NERVUN"? :confused:I dont know.. all i know is that he is becoming very famous :D

You advice is an oxymoron.

First you tell him not to "Generalize" (and I tend to agree with that).. Which means we should try to judge individuals one at a time..

Then you turn around and say NOT to do that.. because that would be "labeling " her :confused:

He is already very confused(you are messing him up further).. If you are going to give him advice.. at least try to Make up your mind beforehand..

In the first, I was saying it is folly to generalise. In the second, perhaps I was unclear. I was not saying, it is folly to judge individuals, however what I was saying is that merely applying a label to someone, without then working with it or finding the reasons why things are the way they are is problematic.

For instance, the post stating the fiancee was controlling and Nervun should seperate from her. This, for one, is a judgement made without any real support. Two, it is essentially just labeling her as controlling and thus should one should steer away? Well why would she appear controlling? Is there a reasoning behind it? Is there a remedy? Evasion, with the relationship that Nervun and his fiancee have, is the worst possible 'solution'.

I would rather at least attempt to see if a relationship can work, rather than abandon it on misguided judgements - However, that is me.

There's a reason for everything and trying to see what processes are causing what, will provide you a better understanding of the individual. Merely writing someone off as this or that is really not a good approach, especially to relationships.

I hope this clarifies my stance, as my mind is quite made up on the topic of relationships in this sense.

She's freaking out because she's about to tie herself "forever" to a man, and she's seeing every small thing as something that could become a huge thing in the future. It's very common. Continue to reassure her, and pick your battles. This is pretty symbolic for you, too, because if you give in on every little thing she'll expect that from you, and if you are stubborn about everything and don't budge an inch then you are setting yourself up for huge power struggles. Stand your ground or concede based on your larger values and imagine what you would do in similar situations every time for the rest of your life.

First, :fluffle: to Sarkhaan and Glitziness.

It's not your responsibility, but it should be your first priority. When you get married you should put your spouse above all things, even yourself. If you have to make a choice between a spouse and a friend, the answer will almost always be your spouse. It's called commitment. If you want to be in a lifelong relationship with someone, you have to be a little less selfish and a little more grown up and mature than running around whining about little stuff like a child "it's my friend, I want to do what I want to do" it's pathetic. My grandma always used to say "do you want to be right or do you want to be married?", if you want to be right all the damn time you are going to have a crappy marriage, and if you can't sacrifice anything at all, how do you expect your partner to sacrifice for you? (and believe me marriage is all about sacrifice sometimes)I agree. However, sometimes there is still right and wrong, and surrender about seriously offending a close friend over something that you don't even believe is happening would be something I would think twice about before doing because my spouse threw a hissy fit.

If you want to understand where someone is coming from you have to understand how they think. I understand why she was mad, and it's not irrational. The fact that you think it is, makes me realize that you also can't see the situation for what it is. "you don't think the same thing as me therefore you dont' understand anything." thanks for that.

Amazingly, I also understand what she's on about, and her perspective. I just think that in this case, she should be the one supressing these reactions, and giving a bit more leeway to her future husband, not the other way around.

I think you and I probably have vastly different views of marriage.
I think you'e right.

no, but you should be eachother's first priority, there is not room in a marriage for anything else. You are a team, no, you are one, you can't fight against eachother and expect to make it out okay, it would be like tying your arms to one horse and your legs to another and having them run in two different directions. Sure, you are a team and each other's first priority. That doesn't mean you can't disagree about stuff, or make decisisons that would not be your partner's decision - hopefully though, you've chosen someone that is similar enough to you in essentials that this won't happen too often. Being totally united in everything is more or less selling yourself out as an individual. Ihat is something i would not consider a positive developement.
a last dance at his wedding, which is not only manipulative, but it's unneeded, it's hurtful to his spouse, it undermines his marriage, and to be truthful she is trying to play both of them, she wants him to feel guilty for getting married, and she wants to make the bride feel insecure, whether she accomplishes either, it doesn't matter, the fact that she would even pull such a stunt proves that she isn't mature enough to keep around.
Not everyone is as conniving and sensetive as all that. People dance with other people at wedding all the time. The fact that this woman is one of NER's "groomsgirls" shows that she is still a close and trusted friend. That's all the information I need. Now, since stakes are already high in this case, I suppose he has no choice but to yield - the wedding day should be perfect for the bride. But I do disagree.

Men and women are different, we have different roles in the world and see things differently. Every woman and man are different, just because I am a woman and I see things one way and you don't doesn't make you less of a woman or me less of a woman it just means we are different.Most of the roles we have are shared. A very few (reproduction-related) are seperate. And by saying that every woman is different than any man, and that women are also different, you've just said that people are different. Congradulations.

People hold different views, Nervun asked for opinions, he got them. Mine, yours, theirs. All opinions, all offered with good intent I am sure. :)

It's really down to him to take from them what he wishes.

I hope that some of this has helped you Nervun. :fluffle:

If people are going to enter into a so-called "relationship", they should be aware that it is actually a very specific type of relationship. One that involves a combination of sexual compatibility, personality compatibility and emotional support/dependence. They are full of unwritten rules. The concept of "love" further confuses the matter by giving the impression that the aforementioned sexual compatibility, personality compatibility and emotional support are one indivisible package. This makes it hard for people to consider them separately and ask themselves what they really want, and what they are willing to provide.

First, :fluffle: to Sarkhaan and Glitziness.

I agree. However, sometimes there is still right and wrong, and surrender about seriously offending a close friend over something that you don't even believe is happening would be something I would think twice about before doing because my spouse threw a hissy fit.
If I had the choice between hurting my spouse or offending a friend, I would offend the friend every single time.

"you don't think the same thing as me therefore you dont' understand anything." thanks for that.
that's not what I said, nor what I meant.

Amazingly, I also understand what she's on about, and her perspective. I just think that in this case, she should be the one supressing these reactions, and giving a bit more leeway to her future husband, not the other way around.
then we have a difference of opinion.


Sure, you are a team and each other's first priority. That doesn't mean you can't disagree about stuff, or make decisisons that would not be your partner's decision - hopefully though, you've chosen someone that is similar enough to you in essentials that this won't happen too often. Being totally united in everything is more or less selling yourself out as an individual. Ihat is something i would not consider a positive developement.
sure you can make your own decisions, but a factor in your thought process has to be "how will this affect my marriage?" and if it will negatively affect your marriage you better go back and figure out how important having your way really is. If this was happening between me and my husband and I said "look I am not comfortable with you doing this" and he ignored that and did it anyway, what I would hear was "I don't care about your feelings, and I am going to do whatever I want, and if you get hurt it doesn't matter to me" which would affect me for a while and he would be the one who had to deal with the aftermath.

Not everyone is as conniving and sensetive as all that. People dance with other people at wedding all the time. The fact that this woman is one of NER's "groomsgirls" shows that she is still a close and trusted friend. That's all the information I need. Now, since stakes are already high in this case, I suppose he has no choice but to yield - the wedding day should be perfect for the bride. But I do disagree.
imo, this woman is that conniving, or she wouldn't have added the "to say goodbye" thing.

Most of the roles we have are shared. A very few (reproduction-related) are seperate. And by saying that every woman is different than any man, and that women are also different, you've just said that people are different. Congradulations.
if you really think that the only roles in life that are different between men and women are the reproductive-related bits, then I guess I can't really explain much to you.:rolleyes:

I suppose it's good that we both answered NERVUN since now he has two distinct perspectives to mull over. ;)

if you really think that the only roles in life that are different between men and women are the reproductive-related bits, then I guess I can't really explain much to you.:rolleyes:

The rest of your post I expected, but this strikes me as strange. What is it that you, a woman, cannot explain to me, another woman, about my role in life?
It has simply been my observation that most of what I do in my life (work, school, family, study, party, date, travel, read, etc.) is more similar than different to the activities of my mle contemporaries. This leads me to the belief that our fundamental "roles" in society do not greatly differ.

Dude no matter what Appolgize. Because your always at fault. Thats the only logic to females.

Amen to that, brother.

Why does everyone insist that it's "NEVRUN" and not "NERVUN"? :confused:
I really, really wish that NationStates was working that day and I could have put in that hyphen. I think it would have cleared up a lot of problems an confusion if everyone could read the name as NERV-UN like it was supposed to be.
*sighs*

Sorry Bub, can't help ya. I'm too mean and far too strong willed to even get a woman, so, yeah, sucks for you man.

Ok, just to clarify things (and explain why in the face of all this advice I have been silent), my fiancee and I had a very long talk last night thanks to the goodness of VOIP (Cheap calls to the US, gotta love them).

Pretty much I found that yes, this situation was still knawing at her and I made my decison to ask my friend to withdraw the dance request, at least for that particular song and for those reasons. My fiancee has no qualms about if she dances with me during the money dance like everyone else, just as long as it isn't ment as something special. She also stated she sees nothing wrong with my friend playing that song and we dancing the night before at the bachelor's party, or any other time, just not the wedding.

We also had a long talk about how I really didn't know about it and in the future, she promised to actually tell me these things instead of just assuming I have magical mind reading powers that work from the other side of the planet. ;)

Finally, we confirmed that she is STILL my friend, and while I will make it clear to said friend we are only friends and that is it, I will not break off the friendship right now. Meaning that if my fiancee, and everyone on this board are correct and she really does have feelings, I will if she does not back off.

And that's my story. Thanks for everyone's advice and help in this... Even if I got called a number of names in the process. :p ;)

Ok, just to clarify things (and explain why in the face of all this advice I have been silent), my fiancee and I had a very long talk last night thanks to the goodness of VOIP (Cheap calls to the US, gotta love them).

Pretty much I found that yes, this situation was still knawing at her and I made my decison to ask my friend to withdraw the dance request, at least for that particular song and for those reasons. My fiancee has no qualms about if she dances with me during the money dance like everyone else, just as long as it isn't ment as something special. She also stated she sees nothing wrong with my friend playing that song and we dancing the night before at the bachelor's party, or any other time, just not the wedding.

We also had a long talk about how I really didn't know about it and in the future, she promised to actually tell me these things instead of just assuming I have magical mind reading powers that work from the other side of the planet. ;)

Finally, we confirmed that she is STILL my friend, and while I will make it clear to said friend we are only friends and that is it, I will not break off the friendship right now. Meaning that if my fiancee, and everyone on this board are correct and she really does have feelings, I will if she does not back off.

And that's my story. Thanks for everyone's advice and help in this... Even if I got called a number of names in the process. :p ;)
good..

so what is the date for the weeding?

good..

so what is the date for the weeding?
August 12, 2006.

Women are illogical. Though happy wedding day when it happens. :)