NationStates Jolt Archive

France has had 5 Republics and 2 Empires to date.

It's had a weak economy for years, and is now enjoying riots by Islamics and (more recently) young people.
French culture is at an all time low: French films are rarely put into International release. Chirac was just embarrased in Brussels as his own minister spoke in English instead of French.
Instead of embracing the free market, France is now looking to protect 11 commercial sectors via nationalization.
Further, France vetoed the EU Consitituion, which obstinantly was of its own creation.
France also has a nearly 50% tax burden, while the budget deficit is above the eurozone's 3%-of-GDP limit and unemployment stands at 10%.

I don't think the Republic will fall, but there will be a new President next year.

A lot of these things are the desperate work of a dying Government. We have the same problem at the moment here.

I dunno, they did create the Paris Commune there, which shows they're capable of good things. Perhaps something like that will happen again? One can only hope. I doubt that France will fall, though.

No, things aren't getting that bad for them. And I'm sure it's different in America but over here we get a plethora of new French films every month.

France will be ok.
Its not like it's the only place with Islamic riots.

Oh, please. :rolleyes:

Chinese like France, but like a communist France more.

I dunno, they did create the Paris Commune there, which shows they're capable of good things. Perhaps something like that will happen again? One can only hope. I doubt that France will fall, though.

Erm... the question was if the government woudl fall. The Paris Commune was ITSELF a fall of a government, and it in turn fell. By that logic, it SHOULD fall. ;)

If they keep on their current path, they will collapse economically and they will be forced to dismantle their social welfare system (if they already aren't doing so) under the burden of its sheer costs. Needless to say, what is happening to France doesn't bode well for the Euro since it is the second largest economy to use the currency.

Oh, please. :rolleyes:

Eh? This is no more or less likely than any one of the "Will the US fall" threads.

Eh? This is no more or less likely than any one of the "Will the US fall" threads.

I wasn't aware we'd had any. And this as silly as those, I would imagine. Unless of course you mean the inevitable fall of all civilisations, well, then, the US and France will fall. Don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen, though.

Erm... the question was if the government woudl fall. The Paris Commune was ITSELF a fall of a government, and it in turn fell. By that logic, it SHOULD fall. ;)Oh, I know. That post was something of a rant. I did say that I doubt France would fall.

The 5th Republic will soon fall to become an Empire, once Chirac tells his generals to execute Order 66.

Err... given that France has been a country for well over 1,000 years, I don't see it happening anytime soon.

The 5th Republic will soon fall to become an Empire, once Chirac tells his generals to execute Order 66.

They're already massing for an attack on the iTunes stores throughout the country...the iPod order will be eradicated.

If anything, France's current government and mode of functioning will fail. France itself, however, is nowhere near a decline. It simply needs to reform itself. The same could be said for much of the EU though.

France has had 5 Republics and 2 Empires to date.Because it has been at the heart of European Wars.

It's had a weak economy for years,From the all mighty american perspective yes, otherwise no it hasn't.

and is now enjoying riots by Islamics and (more recently) young people.Social upheaval is a constant in France. These "riots" are a picnic in comparison to May 1968.

French culture is at an all time low:That's entirely speculative.

French films are rarely put into International release.Cinema has suffered worldwide thanks to piracy.

Chirac was just embarrased in Brussels as his own minister spoke in English instead of French. Villepin has often spoken in English.
Instead of embracing the free market, France is now looking to protect 11 commercial sectors via nationalization.Protectionism is unfortunately common throughout the European Union and also in the United States, despite Republican retoric. The dubai port deal for example... and also the WTO continues to be the American protectionist lap dog rather than being a proponent of the free markets.

Further, France vetoed the EU Consitituion, which obstinantly was of its own creation.The French having done so first, does not subtract truth from the fact that Sweden, Holland, England, etc would have done so as well.

France also has a nearly 50% tax burden, while the budget deficit is above the eurozone's 3%-of-GDP limit and unemployment stands at 10%.The tax burden is at 46%.
What you have described is called an economic slump or recession. There is very little connection between high tax burden with debt or unemployment.

With arguments like these I'd say that the American republic is far more unstable. They owe more money in their national debt than what physically exists on earth, they disslike their "president", and the republicans in congress are up to their necks in corruption.

I dunno, they did create the Paris Commune there, which shows they're capable of good things. Perhaps something like that will happen again? One can only hope. I doubt that France will fall, though.

That'd be awesome.

Markreich got his ass p00nd by Canada6

I don't think the Republic will fall, but there will be a new President next year.

A lot of these things are the desperate work of a dying Government. We have the same problem at the moment here.

Hey, I'm sitting here in the UK now, and given the state of decay, which seems to have occurred over a few decades, if France is worse off than the UK, then they are truly fucked.

Hey, I'm sitting here in the UK now, and given the state of decay, which seems to have occurred over a few decades, if France is worse off than the UK, then they are truly fucked.

Yeah, we're decaying really badly. Why, I had to fight through two riots just go get to University today...

Yeah, we're decaying really badly. Why, I had to fight through two riots just go get to University today...
I know, I know - and it's the Government that's making it rain so much as well, you know...it's a conspiracy. Don't tell anyone!

Yeah, we're decaying really badly. Why, I had to fight through two riots just go get to University today...

There's a remarkable similarity in urban decay between Chelsea (not far from the South Kensington tube stop) and the city of Newark, in New Jersey.

The French are a mystery.

Personally, I don't see France having more problems than it can handle, provided they take a few draconian measures. Whether they have the will to do that or not is another matter entirely.

I hope they do well. It would be highly destabalizing to all of Europe if France descended into chaos of some sort.

I dunno, they did create the Paris Commune there, which shows they're capable of good things. Perhaps something like that will happen again? One can only hope. I doubt that France will fall, though.

Let's hope the army doesn't destroy it when it happens again eh?

There's a remarkable similarity in urban decay between Chelsea (not far from the South Kensington tube stop) and the city of Newark, in New Jersey.
How so?

The French are a mystery.

Personally, I don't see France having more problems than it can handle, provided they take a few draconian measures. Whether they have the will to do that or not is another matter entirely.

I hope they do well. It would be highly destabalizing to all of Europe if France descended into chaos of some sort.

Why would lack of government lead to chaos?

How so?

Same level of decrepit buildings - identical, in fact.

Of course, if I want to see worse than Newark, New Jersey, I only have to take the Piccadilly Line down to Hammersmith.

I'm in a supposedly high class area in a serviced flat - and it's got peeling lead paint, non-functional appliances (including half the lights and electrical outlets), dangerous lifts (in fact, I haven't been in a building in London yet where all the lifts are in working order).

This is the first city where I've been in a lift that dropped two floors without warning. And that in a high-end office building.

In disucssions with locals, this is apparently considered "normal". The state of decay is far more than obvious.

Nah, France will be just fine.
If not, we'll just invade again - that should help them strengthen their unity again.
http://www.world-of-smilies.com/html/images/smilies/armee/wos_armee_069.gif

(Mais oui, naturellement je plaisante!)

Same level of decrepit buildings - identical, in fact. Of course, if I want to see worse than Newark, New Jersey, I only have to take the Piccadilly Line down to Hammersmith.
It's an inner city, you tend to get older buildings. A hell of a lot is being redeveloped.

I'm in a supposedly high class area in a serviced flat - and it's got peeling lead paint, non-functional appliances (including half the lights and electrical outlets),
Now it's not London's fault you didn't check your property before signing up to it, is it?

dangerous lifts (in fact, I haven't been in a building in London yet where all the lifts are in working order).
Lifts are not a British speciality. It makes life more exciting. :p

This is the first city where I've been in a lift that dropped two floors without warning. And that in a high-end office building.
That has never, ever happened to me. And again, this is London's fault?

In disucssions with locals, this is apparently considered "normal". The state of decay is far more than obvious.
So basically, you don't like seeing old buildings. Are you American, by any chance?

There's a remarkable similarity in urban decay between Chelsea (not far from the South Kensington tube stop) and the city of Newark, in New Jersey.

Oh please. All cities have shitty areas like that, as do most Capitals. Rotten buildings and crapped out utility services aren't exactly a sign of degredation and iminent collapse. More a sign of capitalism really. We've made do with this sort of thing for centuries and we've muddled through worse. I've no doubt we'll do the same again...

How so?

They are similar in the way Reagan and Thatcher were

Oh please. All cities have shitty areas like that, as do most Capitals. Rotten buildings and crapped out utility services aren't exactly a sign of degredation and iminent collapse. More a sign of capitalism really. We've made do with this sort of thing for centuries and we've muddled through worse. I've no doubt we'll do the same again...

There isn't an area in London that isn't shitty - only shitty and worse than shitty.

You have to go to actual bad areas to see this kind of crap in most American cities.

And in the suburbs of DC where I usually live, I've gone over 20 years and never seen any of it. Not one bit.

There isn't an area in London that isn't shitty - only shitty and worse than shitty.

You have to go to actual bad areas to see this kind of crap in most American cities.

And in the suburbs of DC where I usually live, I've gone over 20 years and never seen any of it. Not one bit.

Eh. You see, we don't moan about it, because we're used to it. But I haven't seen reports of riots and such in London recently, so I think we're doing allright. Don't judge an entire nation and it's people on the capitalistic neglect of London's suburbs.

Why would lack of government lead to chaos?
Film at eleven.

Wishing it would be so isn't going to make it happen. The nation of France will outlive everybody posting here today. Bank on it.

France falls the day Åland carves an intercontinental empire.

Eh. You see, we don't moan about it, because we're used to it. But I haven't seen reports of riots and such in London recently, so I think we're doing allright. Don't judge an entire nation and it's people on the capitalistic neglect of London's suburbs.

It's one of the primary observations of the working group that I'm a part of that people in the UK are used to, and tolerate, an abysmally low level of service - they've gotten to the point where they don't report anything broken, because they know it will never be addressed.

Wishing it would be so isn't going to make it happen. The nation of France will outlive everybody posting here today. Bank on it.

Oh, the nation will be around. It will just be an exceedingly interesting place to live, in a rather negative way.

Eh? This is no more or less likely than any one of the "Will the US fall" threads.
I'd even say it's way more likely that the US will fall.
Chirac certainly isn't the brightest dude ever, but he's still doing much better than Bush. France doesn't have freaky laws like unwarranted wietapping and such, and they don't go around invading nations without provocation making up ridiculous excuses like the US :rolleyes:

It's one of the primary observations of the working group that I'm a part of that people in the UK are used to, and tolerate, an abysmally low level of service - they've gotten to the point where they don't report anything broken, because they know it will never be addressed.
Sounds like an opening for the exercising of the freedom to provide services across borders...

It's one of the primary observations of the working group that I'm a part of that people in the UK are used to, and tolerate, an abysmally low level of service - they've gotten to the point where they don't report anything broken, because they know it will never be addressed.

Brilliant observation. I could say the same about most areas in the District of Columbia, or the New York slum areas I walked through on holiday. Or the ones In Boston, or Chigcago, or Washington itself...

It's a Western disease, but not really fatal.

It's one of the primary observations of the working group that I'm a part of that people in the UK are used to, and tolerate, an abysmally low level of service - they've gotten to the point where they don't report anything broken, because they know it will never be addressed.
Sounds like you're living in a really, really run down Council flat to me. Are you sure you're not in Peckham?

Sounds like an opening for the exercising of the freedom to provide services across borders...
No, it's a statement that it might be useless to attempt to provide a better level of service, because the typical UK consumer could care less.

They don't mind paying more, getting less, and having crap not working.

We could start with any point you like. Let's take Sky Sport for one. If you want to watch sport in the UK, you have to pay Sky. Oh, and if you're planning on watching the finals in any sport, you'll have to pay for Sky Extra (a higher tier).

Not a mumble about how stupid an idea that was - to sell all the rights to sport to one vendor. No, they're just queuing up to pay the extra money...

Sounds like you're living in a really, really run down Council flat to me. Are you sure you're not in Peckham?

No, I'm living in the Chelsea Cloisters. Far, far from the "run down council flat" which we saw on a tour for our working group (plenty of run down flats in Hammersmith, lol).

No, it's a statement that it might be useless to attempt to provide a better level of service, because the typical UK consumer could care less.

They don't mind paying more, getting less, and having crap not working.

We could start with any point you like. Let's take Sky Sport for one. If you want to watch sport in the UK, you have to pay Sky. Oh, and if you're planning on watching the finals in any sport, you'll have to pay for Sky Extra (a higher tier).

Not a mumble about how stupid an idea that was - to sell all the rights to sport to one vendor. No, they're just queuing up to pay the extra money...
Wonderful. A guy prepared to condemn an entire city and people because he doesn't like his flat and can't watch the football.

No, it's a statement that it might be useless to attempt to provide a better level of service, because the typical UK consumer could care less.

They don't mind paying more, getting less, and having crap not working.

We could start with any point you like. Let's take Sky Sport for one. If you want to watch sport in the UK, you have to pay Sky. Oh, and if you're planning on watching the finals in any sport, you'll have to pay for Sky Extra (a higher tier).

Not a mumble about how stupid an idea that was - to sell all the rights to sport to one vendor. No, they're just queuing up to pay the extra money...
Will your workgroup publish those conclusions someplace official? I am already counting euros...

Wonderful. A guy prepared to condemn an entire city and people because he doesn't like his flat and can't watch the football.
You're lucky he doesn't condemn the whole of UK history for those transgressions.

Wonderful. A guy prepared to condemn an entire city and people because he doesn't like his flat and can't watch the football.
He'll be getting over it soon. It happens to everyone who makes a big move.

Wonderful. A guy prepared to condemn an entire city and people because he doesn't like his flat and can't watch the football.

Nope. It's also the result of a massive amount of study data.

Orwell was prophetic, concerning the level of crap the UK people would be willing to accept as "good" in the future.

Will your workgroup publish those conclusions someplace official? I am already counting euros...
It's up to the UK government to publish it. Already, they are horrified.

Film at eleven.

What film?
What channel?
What country?

Nope. It's also the result of a massive amount of study data.

Orwell was prophetic, concerning the level of crap the UK people would be willing to accept as "good" in the future.

That means fuck all. I could conduct another study in the US of New York slums, of DC slums and find that US citizens there are willing to take a lot of crap and not complain as well.

It's not just a British thing mate.

That means fuck all. I could conduct another study in the US of New York slums, of DC slums and find that US citizens there are willing to take a lot of crap and not complain as well.

It's not just a British thing mate.

We're not studying slum dwellers, bright one.

We're not studying slum dwellers, bright one.

Ah, attacking me now? Brilliant. Tell me then, what exactly are you studying specifically?

Ah, attacking me now? Brilliant. Tell me then, what exactly are you studying specifically?
"How attacking your adopted nation and its people can help you beat homesickness."

Ah, attacking me now? Brilliant. Tell me then, what exactly are you studying specifically?
People from the middle class on up - people who would be prospective customers.

People who, in most other countries, might welcome the chance for better service.

But evidently not here. In fact, the idea that UK residents would welcome lower prices, better service, or a combination of the two is so far off the mark as to be laughable.

"How attacking your adopted nation and its people can help you beat homesickness."

Yes, that did come to mind...

People from the middle class on up - people who would be prospective customers.

People who, in most other countries, might welcome the chance for better service.

But evidently not here. In fact, the idea that UK residents would welcome lower prices, better service, or a combination of the two is so far off the mark as to be laughable.

I find your research to be laughable as well. Who exactly are you interviewing - and where?

Yes, that did come to mind...
Nope. Being paid for an outsider's perspective.

In fact, the idea that UK residents would welcome lower prices, better service, or a combination of the two is so far off the mark as to be laughable.
They're not the consumer-bots you're looking for, then. Good.

Nope. It's also the result of a massive amount of study data.

Orwell was prophetic, concerning the level of crap the UK people would be willing to accept as "good" in the future.
To be honest, this is pretty true, eg. ID cards, "anti-terror" laws, massive tax-and-spend, abandoning any real attempt to promote Britain as a world power or even defend our domestic security, but I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. American cities (ie. New Orleans, to name but one) are home to some of the most monumentally disgraceful levels of destitution in the Western world which are not repeated with anything like the frequency in Britain. I think you just didn't get out much in the US.

To be honest, this is pretty true, eg. ID cards, "anti-terror" laws, massive tax-and-spend, abandoning any real attempt to promote Britain as a world power or even defend our domestic security, but I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. American cities (ie. New Orleans, to name but one) are home to some of the most monumentally disgraceful levels of destitution in the Western world which are not repeated with anything like the frequency in Britain. I think you just didn't get out much in the US.

Indeed. Orwell had an excellent point, but it isn't just a British thing. As an 'Outsider' to Washington and New York, I saw slums that were equal to those in London that I've visited if not worse. This is hardly a British problem; it's a Western one.

"How attacking your adopted nation and its people can help you beat homesickness."
We who enjoy US-bashing must beware the pitfalls of Hypocracy. Is it so unthinkable that brits suffer from partial sheepflock-mentality?

We who enjoy US-bashing must beware the pitfalls of Hypocracy. Is it so unthinkable that brits suffer from partial sheepflock-mentality?

Of course not. It merely irritates when someone seems to intimate that Britain's problem is an isolated one. It is a Western one, and one that the US suffers from just as badly as the US, if not worse.

They're not the consumer-bots you're looking for, then. Good.
Someone else was looking for a way to "improve" the UK economy.

Looks like they'll have to look elsewhere, because UK residents won't be doing it.

We who enjoy US-bashing must beware the pitfalls of Hypocracy. Is it so unthinkable that brits suffer from partial sheepflock-mentality?
lol no, and I would say British people are probably the most willing in the world to bash their own nation. It's the idea that London is somehow a slum because this guy doesn't like it that irritates me.

Someone else was looking for a way to "improve" the UK economy.

Looks like they'll have to look elsewhere, because UK residents won't be doing it.
This has become quite true, really. Too much Labour propaganda and too much incompetent Tory party. Now, after years of presenting a bad argument instead of presenting a good argument, it's decided to switch sides.

They're not the consumer-bots you're looking for, then. Good.
Consumerbottism =/= Consumer awareness

lol no, and I would say British people are probably the most willing in the world to bash their own nation. It's the idea that London is somehow a slum because this guy doesn't like it that irritates me.

Yeah. I love to bash London all the time - it's great fun to mock accents and the council there. It's when posters ignore other arguments I get infuriated.

This has become quite true, really. Too much Labour propaganda and too much incompetent Tory party. Now, after years of presenting a bad argument instead of presenting a good argument, it's decided to switch sides.

We could add that the level of unsecured consumer debt is over the levels found in the US.

That is, although they haven't borrowed as much money per family unit, they have, on average, borrowed far more now than their ability to make payments in the coming year.

In a word, they're strapped, even if they wanted to spend money.

Not a problem though, if you never plan on spending any more money, or never paying back the bank.

Yeah. I love to bash London all the time - it's great fun to mock accents and the council there. It's when posters ignore other arguments I get infuriated.
You keep ignoring the fact that I'm not focusing on slums or slum dwellers - you keep going back to it even though that's not the focus.

I'll continue to ignore the slum comments, because they are completely irrelevant.

Let's compare the high end of US cities and high end suburbs to those in the UK.... which is what we've been doing.

Consumerbottism =/= Consumer awareness
Consumer awareness = anti-slack. = validating the lives of vapid marketing weasels. = promulgating the legitimacy of selling useless crap to each other as the basis for societal glue.

France has had 5 Republics and 2 Empires to date.

It's had a weak economy for years,

France's economy isn't weak. We have a high unemployment rate, but we still have a high living standard, we are still among world leaders in many domains (trains, nuclear energy, plane building, ...). Even our unemployed people have better living conditions than many who do work in UK or USA. We have an hourly productivity among the best of the worlds. We usually have growth rate above the average of the Eurozone, too.

The situation is far, far from perfect, and the neoliberal reforms of the latest 30 years did us a lot of harm. But overall, we are not doing that bad compared to other countries.

and is now enjoying riots by Islamics

The riots of november had nothing to do with islam or islamists. It was riots of the desperate people of poorest areas, like there always were in all time and places. The "lumpen proletariat" (those who are even refused acces to proletariat) are reacting violently since always, nothing new in that.

and (more recently) young people.

The current riots are very limited, and are mostly done by extreme-right fascists who want to break the anti-CPE movement. The vast majority of the youth of France is just fighting, peacefully, for its rights and dignity, against a law rejected by 68% of french people.

French culture is at an all time low: French films are rarely put into International release.

Well, the penguin movie was a worldwide success, as was Amélie Poulain and a few others in the latest years. But I wouldn't judge a country on how successful its movie industry is.

Chirac was just embarrased in Brussels as his own minister spoke in English instead of French.

Was not a minister, hopefully. It was Sellières, the ex-leader of the MEDEF (french "union" of CEOs of big companies) who is now the leader of the european "union" of CEOs.

Instead of embracing the free market, France is now looking to protect 11 commercial sectors via nationalization.

Which would help us a lot if it were true, but saddly, that's not at all what this gov is doing. They are selling our public services to the market, breaking services which were among the world leader, with low prices, and giving us high-quality infrastructures, and doing their share of the national solidarity.

Further, France vetoed the EU Consitituion, which obstinantly was of its own creation.

It was the creation of an "elite", of Giscard d'Estaing, the only president of the Fifth Republic to ever have lose a reelection (after ruling from 1974 to 1981, he was defeated by Miterrand in 1981, while all others presidents were always reelected when they presented after a 7 years term). French people refused to comply with a "constitution" coming from above, which had a clear goal to take away from them both their democracy, their economical sovereignity and their social system. That's a sign of strong, proud, and smart people, fighting for freedom and solidarity, as the french people illustrated themselves a few times in history.

France also has a nearly 50% tax burden, while the budget deficit is above the eurozone's 3%-of-GDP limit and unemployment stands at 10%.

Tax is not a problem in itself, for the deficit, it's the same in most countries of Europe, and far worse in USA. The unemployment rate is a real problem, one of the worst we have, but it's not impossible to solve. The CAC40 (40 biggest companies of France) double their profit every year since 2003, in 2004 they gave to their stock holders more than what's required to pay 6 millions of workers at the minimal wage during the year (that is, close to twice the official number of unemployed). So, if we really want to solve this problem, and if we dare to break the dictatorship of stock markets and to reclaim our own economy and our own wealth, we can do it.

I would also state again that many unemployed in France still have better living conditions than people who do work in more capitalist countries like UK or US, and that we have a far lower amount of people living under the poverty line than in those countries... even if the situation is going downwards quickly with this infamous governement we have since 2002.

For the Fifth Republic, it's a very bad republic, which gives a lot of power to the president, and prevent a fair representation of small parties. It was created by General De Gaulle during exceptional times (Algeria war), and it's not a fully democratic Constitution. So I do hope it'll fall, and be replace with a new, Sixth Republic, giving more power to the Parliament, and to the citizen themselves (recall referendums, ...).

Let's compare the high end of US cities and high end suburbs to those in the UK.... which is what we've been doing.
What, they both have big box stores? Bunker metalities? Manicured lawns? What?

What, they both have big box stores? Bunker metalities? Manicured lawns? What?
As a matter of fact, as compared to the US, they really don't.

Not that the occasional IKEA hasn't opened here...

but it isn't seeing the kind of traffic that you see in the US - nowhere near the demand for "big box" - not even close to initial projections.

In fact, the typical grocery store is far smaller, and has far less product selection than a typical non-big box US grocery - and people seem ok with that.

Consumers here could care less about choice, price, selection, service - all the things that are apprently big issues for US consumers.

As a matter of fact, as compared to the US, they really don't.

Not that the occasional IKEA hasn't opened here...

but it isn't seeing the kind of traffic that you see in the US - nowhere near the demand for "big box" - not even close to initial projections.

In fact, the typical grocery store is far smaller, and has far less product selection than a typical non-big box US grocery - and people seem ok with that.

Consumers here could care less about choice, price, selection, service - all the things that are apprently big issues for US consumers.

So we're not big consumerists as many US citizens are. Hell, I could have told you that - most European nation's seem to be the same.

France's economy isn't weak. We have a high unemployment rate, but we still have a high living standard, we are still among world leaders in many domains (trains, nuclear energy, plane building, ...). Even our unemployed people have better living conditions than many who do work in UK or USA. We have an hourly productivity among the best of the worlds. We usually have growth rate above the average of the Eurozone, too.


The problem isn't the economy in itself, but the inability of it to sustain costs that will be incurred in succeeding years. You've got billions in legacy costs and social welfare guarantees that cannot be afforded at your current rates of economic growth.

Futhermore, there is a demographic crisis; too many older people are retiring and collecting benefits, but there are not enough people entering the workforce and getting jobs to cover the costs through new revenue. Unemployment is a serious problem. If people don't work, they don't generate tax revenue and don't buy goods and services to drive the economy. It also generates crime, income inequality, and social instability. If France doesn't address the problem, the current standards of living and social welfare will be unsustainable.

So we're not big consumerists as many US citizens are. Hell, I could have told you that - most European nation's seem to be the same.

I guess that explains the inordinate levels of unsecured consumer debt, LOL

I dunno, they did create the Paris Commune there, which shows they're capable of good things. Perhaps something like that will happen again? One can only hope. I doubt that France will fall, though.

Saddly, I doubt something like a new Commune will happen anytime soon :/ We may manage to overthrow our governement (we nearly did it in 1995), but it'll not be anything to Paris' Commune, I fear.

There is a slight hope of having, in 2007, a candidate from the real left to win the election, in the wave of the 55% who refused the neoliberal "constitution" in 2005. But even for that, the chance is low, I fear. And it'll not be as great as the Commune was, even if it could be a new 1936 or a new 1944-46 (that is, several very strong social rights granted, increasing strongly the quality of life of the vast majority of french).

As a matter of fact, as compared to the US, they really don't.

Not that the occasional IKEA hasn't opened here...

but it isn't seeing the kind of traffic that you see in the US - nowhere near the demand for "big box" - not even close to initial projections.

In fact, the typical grocery store is far smaller, and has far less product selection than a typical non-big box US grocery - and people seem ok with that.

Consumers here could care less about choice, price, selection, service - all the things that are apprently big issues for US consumers.
So the British don't consider consumerism as the pinnacle of human achievement?
Big deal.

The problem isn't the economy in itself, but the inability of it to sustain costs that will be incurred in succeeding years. You've got billions in legacy costs and social welfare guarantees that cannot be afforded at your current rates of economic growth.

Futhermore, there is a demographic crisis; too many older people are retiring and collecting benefits, but there are not enough people entering the workforce and getting jobs to cover the costs through new revenue. Unemployment is a serious problem. If people don't work, they don't generate tax revenue and don't buy goods and services to drive the economy. It also generates crime, income inequality, and social instability. If France doesn't address the problem, the current standards of living and social welfare will be unsustainable.


Sounds like what the UK went through in the 1960s and 1970s.

Came very, very close to turning the UK into a third world nation.

Consumer awareness = anti-slack. = validating the lives of vapid marketing weasels. = promulgating the legitimacy of selling useless crap to each other as the basis for societal glue.

Ahem. This is exactly about the opposite...not accepting useless crap.

Are you foaming at the mouth?

Came very, very close to turning the UK into a third world nation.
You must be really popular down at the pub. No wonder you watch telly in your flat.

I guess that explains the inordinate levels of unsecured consumer debt, LOL

Oh, the US can talk about consumer debt, can they? Because ours must be so much larger than that of the US and its consumer society...

LOL

Sounds like what the UK went through in the 1960s and 1970s. Came very, very close to turning the UK into a third world nation.

The exact same thing is happening in France and Germany now and will happen in the near future to the US. If they can revitalize their growth and encourage immigration, they can avert the crisis, but if they (and we in the US) don't prepare, the only outcome will be economic collapse.

Ahem. This is exactly about the opposite...not taking useless crap for granted.

Are you foaming at the mouth?
Oh, a lifetime filled to the rafters with useless consumerite crap leaves me little alternative than to take it for granted. Thank-you marketing weasels.

I only foam at the mouth when brushing my teeth.

Still beat your wife?

Oh, the US can talk about consumer debt, can they? Because ours must be so much larger than that of the US and its consumer society...

LOL

Actually, the typical UK debtor is in a lot more trouble.

The US debtor actually has a chance of making their payments year to year. The door is rapidly closing on unsecured credit in the UK - they don't make enough on average to service the debt they have already incurred.

Now who's laughing...

You must be really popular down at the pub. No wonder you watch telly in your flat.
Actually, I'm quite popular down at the White Hart, in Holborn.

Oh, a lifetime filled to the rafters with useless consumerite crap leaves me little alternative than to take it for granted. Thank-you marketing weasels.

I only foam at the mouth when brushing my teeth.

Still beat your wife?
:D

I don't think the Republic will fall, but there will be a new President next year.

A lot of these things are the desperate work of a dying Government. We have the same problem at the moment here.

I wonder why there isn't a "The Fall of The United States" thread.

The problem isn't the economy in itself, but the inability of it to sustain costs that will be incurred in succeeding years. You've got billions in legacy costs and social welfare guarantees that cannot be afforded at your current rates of economic growth.

That's not true. The "hole" in the social security system is fully created by the governement itself, by not paying its debts to the system, or by allowing companies to not pay their share. The amount of "exonérations" given those 20 previous years, without any control, is far greater than the amount of the deficit. And for the health system, if the state just paid back the taxes on tabacco and alcohol that should go to the health system, it would have no hole either.

Futhermore, there is a demographic crisis; too many older people are retiring and collecting benefits, but there are not enough people entering the workforce and getting jobs to cover the costs through new revenue.

The demographic crisis isn't a real problem either. The increase in productivity is higher than the increase in demographic pressure. The problem is that the whole system (unemployment, healthcare, retirement) is entirely paid on the part of the GDP that goes to workers. And the split between the workers and the stock holders went from 85/15 in the early 80s to 70/30 now. The amount of money lacking in the social security system because of that is far, far higher than all the holes, even with a retirement after 37.5 years of work, and with a true 100% of healthcare repaid.

That's the two main problems, which are linked: the gifts done by the gov to corporations without any control, and the shift of the workers/stock holders split. Demographic issues are very minor compared to that, and would very easily be compensated by increase of productivity (which is, according to economists, more than 3 times higher than the increased cost of demographic pressue).

Unemployment is a serious problem. If people don't work, they don't generate tax revenue and don't buy goods and services to drive the economy. It also generates crime, income inequality, and social instability. If France doesn't address the problem, the current standards of living and social welfare will be unsustainable.

I agree with that. We need to fix the problem of unemployment. But we can do it. First, there are many, many jobs lacking in public services (healthcare, education, transports, ...). The state could reduce unemployment this way, which would in turn create jobs in the private sector because those people would buy. We can also prevent outsourcing, prevent companies that do profits to fire workers, give workers a say in how the companies are run, nationalize some companies and then employ more people in them, ...

And there are many other solutions: a modulation of taxes according to the behavior of the company (profits made compared to jobs created, high profits but low jobs creation would mean high taxes, high job creation would mean low taxes), allowing people to get paid while training when there is a crisis in their previous sectors, ...

We have solutions. All of them requires, one way or another, to defy the power of stock markets. But if we are a democracy, it's the people, not the stock market who decide in the end. Let's break the dicatorship of the stock markets, and take back our economy. Things would be much, much better then.

I wonder why there isn't a "The Fall of The United States" thread.
There should be. But certain European nations will precede it.

And when the US goes, it will take the rest of the world with it.

I wonder why there isn't a "The Fall of The United States" thread.
There have been ... numerous ones.

Why am I not surprised that this thread has transmorgified into yet another bash America thread. You folks have some serious hostility issues. :rolleyes:

There have been ... numerous ones.

Why am I not surprised that this thread has transmorgified into yet another bash America thread. You folks have some serious hostility issues. :rolleyes:
Perish forbid anyone should point out a problem in any European nation...

France wont fall but it'll slip a lot and end up like eastern europe probobly.

PS

E.U states you need a stable government to join
KICK FRANCE OUT

Sounds like what the UK went through in the 1960s and 1970s.

Came very, very close to turning the UK into a third world nation.
Largely because the US embargoed us over Suez. I dont know why we still help you bloody people.

Largely because the US embargoed us over Suez. I dont know why we still help you bloody people.
I didn't know there was anyone left on Earth who still believed that one.

Largely because the US embargoed us over Suez. I dont know why we still help you bloody people.

That's true. All their governments seem to do these days are to lead us into pointless imperialistic conflicts and control our spineless leaders.

Did the Fifth Republic fall with the 68 riots? Did it fall with the oil shock or with d'Estaing's trading with Bokassa?
Did the Third Republic fall with the Dreyfus Affair or the Stavisky one?

That's true. All their governments seem to do these days are to lead us into pointless imperialistic conflicts and control our spineless leaders.
I like Imperialist conflicts. They make money. And get rid of dictators. However, they don't really seem to care about Britain at all, only their own survival. Look at our mounting energy crisis, for instance. We have enough coal for it to provide 70% of our electricity in 5 years, and keep providing it for at least 250.

Largely because the US embargoed us over Suez. I dont know why we still help you bloody people.
Wasn't that British-Israeli-French stupidity and this little thing in Hungary? And what would you have done with it? And how on Earth would you have argued against something you stole being nationalized? And how would you have kept a semblance of the Empire through operating the Canal to the hostility of the whole world?

Perish forbid anyone should point out a problem in any European nation...
Exactly.

Largely because the US embargoed us over Suez. I dont know why we still help you bloody people.
Say what??? So far as memory serves me, there hasn't been anything even remotely approaching an American "embargo" of the UK since the War of 1812! What is the source of this information???

Say what??? So far as memory serves me, there hasn't been anything even remotely approaching an American "embargo" of the UK since the War of 1812! What is the source of this information???
I think (s)he meant that you wouldn't back them, the French, and the Israelis in 1956, when they went to get Nasser. Not literal embargo, just a "we don't advise it, and you'd better get out".

Say what??? So far as memory serves me, there hasn't been anything even remotely approaching an American "embargo" of the UK since the War of 1812! What is the source of this information???
Well it wasn't a full embargo, but you cut off our oil supply and prompted a massive fuel crisis.

Wasn't that British-Israeli-French stupidity and this little thing in Hungary? And what would you have done with it? And how on Earth would you have argued against something you stole being nationalized? And how would you have kept a semblance of the Empire through operating the Canal to the hostility of the whole world?
We built the Suez canal and it is our property. As always, the US sided with theft and thuggery.

Argesia - No. We never asked for your help, we just asked

"Thus, the Eisenhower administration forced a cease-fire on Britain and France, which it had previously told the Allies it would not do. Part of the pressure that the United States used against Britain was financial, as Eisenhower threatened to sell the United States reserves of the British pound and thereby precipitate a collapse of the British currency. There was also a measure of discouragement for Britain in the rebuke by the Commonwealth Prime Ministers St. Laurent of Canada and Menzies of Australia at a time when Britain was still continuing to regard the Commonwealth as an entity of importance as the residue of the British Empire and as an automatic supporter in its effort to remain a world power."

- Wikipedia

I was just in france; it seemed very far from collapse.

We could start with any point you like. Let's take Sky Sport for one. If you want to watch sport in the UK, you have to pay Sky. Oh, and if you're planning on watching the finals in any sport, you'll have to pay for Sky Extra (a higher tier).

Not a mumble about how stupid an idea that was - to sell all the rights to sport to one vendor. No, they're just queuing up to pay the extra money...
Actually, when Sky was first introduced in the early '90's and bought all the Sport there was a massive outcry. The problem is is that Sky is part of the Murdoch empire so has rather a lot of money behind it. British terrestrial companies don't have that sort of capital behind them so the extra money that Sky could pay to those sports was accepted. Should people wish to watch those programmes then they have no choice but to purchase Sky or else not see the matches, so they're not so much queuing up to pay the extra, but have no choice. It's the free market dear, live with it.

And in relation to your work on what the middle-class upwards want to purchase. Then look away from Chelsea and look toward Rotherhithe and Canary Wharf, that's where the people with money live, if they live in London and don't just commute!

Probably not fall, but I feel like there is a lot of ballast to be gotten rid of. So someone will have make some major reforms happening at some point - but that is difficult, seeing as to how the French see the free market and all that.

The immigrants are not a problem though - it's the fact that poor people have such poor chances in France that is the problem.

Probably not fall, but I feel like there is a lot of ballast to be gotten rid of. So someone will have make some major reforms happening at some point - but that is difficult, seeing as to how the French see the free market and all that.

The immigrants are not a problem though - it's the fact that poor people have such poor chances in France that is the problem.

Yeah, but they are not exactly making the situation any better when they refuse to work more than X hour a week...not too mention that have so much unemployment and job security. Not helping the economy.

Yeah, but they are not exactly making the situation any better when they refuse to work more than X hour a week...not too mention that have so much unemployment and job security. Not helping the economy.
I don't really care how many hours they work a week. This might be strange for you to grasp, but working hours have absolutely nothing to do with productivity, or with economic performance. Indeed, as productivity will continue to go up in the future, to even maintain some basic level of employment in the economy, working hours for most people must become less.

French workers have traditionally been very productive, and their economic performance over the decades has allowed them to cut working hours and enjoy life for a bit. I generally regard those arguments about "those lazy bastards don't work as much as we do!" as either ignorance or envy - your pick.

The thing I think needs to be worked out is the huge public sector which is really quiet ineffective and inefficient, the ridiculously oversized public debt used to pay thousands and thousands of officials and bureaucrats until and beyond they retire with 35, the fact that badly run public enterprises hold monopolies in many sectors still and so on.

Plus, there are problems with inflexibility in the labour market. Despite all the good intentions of those wanting to protect worker's rights and job security, the first people you hurt are the unemployed.
If every one of your workers is going to be a burden on you for the next two years, even if they do a bad job (not saying that they do - just saying that the possibility will have to enter any decision-making process), it's simple math that every worker you hire will have to be either very cheap, or very, very good.
In practice, that means you rather stretch that one worker you already have out for a bit more, you buy that machine to do the job, or you start discriminating and only employ kids of rich white parents.

In all cases, the guy who loses out is the little unemployed kid who any social-minded person would normally have some compassion for.

So to all the Frenchmen and -women who now like to point to Britain or the US and call foul on all the inequality and unfairness: Look at the bloody figures! Look at your own slums!

The French system as it is now is no better!

We built the Suez canal and it is our property.

Actually, you didn't.

As always, the US sided with theft and thuggery.

The US would do that, I guess, but the point is not made in this case. Not only was Nasser more right than the Brits/French/Israelis, the US was trying to get Hungary into focus (check out what was happening then).
As to theft and thuggery... this is, after all, the British Empire we're talking about. The whole thing was built on a "stealing from the darkies is okay" philosophy.

Argesia - No. We never asked for your help, we just asked

I'm not American.

So to all the Frenchmen and -women who now like to point to Britain or the US and call foul on all the inequality and unfairness: Look at the bloody figures! Look at your own slums!

If they'd emptied the slums, and send them back to the mothercountry, unemployment could be drasticly reduced. Not just in France.

If they'd emptied the slums, and send them back to the mothercountry, unemployment could be drasticly reduced. Not just in France.
Also if the unemployed were shot, or gassed.

Also if the unemployed were shot, or gassed.
Yes. But I think that would be to costly. Gasprizes went through the roof in the past months.

Meh, ignore Praetonia. He tends to be full of shit like Hogsweat.

France has had 5 Republics and 2 Empires to date.

It's had a weak economy for years, and is now enjoying riots by Islamics and (more recently) young people.
French culture is at an all time low: French films are rarely put into International release. Chirac was just embarrased in Brussels as his own minister spoke in English instead of French.
Instead of embracing the free market, France is now looking to protect 11 commercial sectors via nationalization.
Further, France vetoed the EU Consitituion, which obstinantly was of its own creation.
France also has a nearly 50% tax burden, while the budget deficit is above the eurozone's 3%-of-GDP limit and unemployment stands at 10%.


good for them to nationalize, the free market is the right hand of evil. the rioting is in responce to companies (i.e. private buisness:upyours: ) wanting the ability to fire anyone because of age. France isn't going to fall, who would they fall to? they have no oil so their country is usless to the US. All the need is a true socialist government, ally with Cuba, Venezuela, China and Russia, Iran, Palestine (though it doesn't really exist) and help destroy the Neo-Conservative fascism thats ripping apart America and the world.:sniper:

Actually, you didn't.

Technically no, the French did. It was, however, jointly owned by the British and French at the time of the Suez Crisis.


The US would do that, I guess, but the point is not made in this case. Not only was Nasser more right than the Brits/French/Israelis, the US was trying to get Hungary into focus (check out what was happening then).
As to theft and thuggery... this is, after all, the British Empire we're talking about. The whole thing was built on a "stealing from the darkies is okay" philosophy.

Nasser was not more right as the property was not his. He nationalised something which was not owned by his Country and so had no right to its ownership.
As for your point on the British Empire, the Empire was built upon trade with other nations.

I'm not American.
Lucky you. *shrug*

France won't fall.

in this day and age, any nation that 'Falls' from internal problems stands a great chance of draging other Nations down. the more influence that Nation has the more Nations will be affected.

Should France, (or any Nation) face economic collapse, other Nations would help shore it up untill it stablizes.

Yes, even the US will help... so will China, USSR, UK, and others.

so no, France won't fall.

As always, the US sided with theft and thuggery.

The US would do that, I guess, but the point is not made in this case. Not only was Nasser more right than the Brits/French/Israelis, the US was trying to get Hungary into focus (check out what was happening then).
As to theft and thuggery... this is, after all, the British Empire we're talking about. The whole thing was built on a "stealing from the darkies is okay" philosophy.

http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~raza/pwned-facekick.jpg

http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~raza/pwned-facekick.jpg
Ah. We won't point out how the British Empire abolished slavery a long, long time before the Americans then...

America hardly has a clean record when it comes to the 'darkies,' so it's probably best not to make a big point about it.

Ah. We won't point out how the British Empire abolished slavery a long, long time before the Americans then...

America hardly has a clean record when it comes to the 'darkies,' so it's probably best not to make a big point about it.

Conquering a country, or owning a slave, has no term that I am aware of to make it less of an atrocious act, so if some silly Brit or American wants to insinuate that they somehow hold some sort of moral high ground when it comes to subjugating others, I will be the first to help in bringing their ego down a couple of notches

Of course not. It merely irritates when someone seems to intimate that Britain's problem is an isolated one. It is a Western one, and one that the US suffers from just as badly as the US, if not worse.


The US suffers from it, the US created it. It's like a viral infection; the only cure is to kill the virus, in this case the United States of America.

Conquering a country, or owning a slave, has no finer term that I am aware of, so if some silly Brit or American wants to insinuate that they somehow hold some sort of moral high ground when it comes to subjugating others, I will be the first to help in bringing their ego down a couple of noches
I certainly won't claim such a moral high ground. I simply believe that all nations have very black spots on their history, and any attempt to attack one country for doing wrong when they were also involved in some way does strike me as hypocracy.

I'm certainly not looking for a UK/USA 'who's better' thread. Anyone would have thought we'd realise by now we've not been enemies now for nearly 200 years (when we whipped your arses :p).

I certainly won't claim such a moral high ground. I simply believe that all nations have very black spots on their history...


And America from 1944 to the present is one big black spot, writen on a page torn from the holy Bible, and it's growing. Soon it will cease to be a spot and become a 3 dimensional blob.

Technically no, the French did. It was, however, jointly owned by the British and French at the time of the Suez Crisis.

Yeah, after the Brits had overran Egypt for "not paying its debt" (which is so much more abusive than nationalizing!). Nasser thought that Egypt had paid its debt by then, after 90 years of British institutionalized plunder. I for one think he was right.

Nasser was not more right as the property was not his. He nationalised something which was not owned by his Country and so had no right to its ownership.

All nationalizations are disputed etc. Let me point out something: all nationalizations apply to something that is not owned by the country already. Otherwise, no nationalization would make sense.

As for your point on the British Empire, the Empire was built upon trade with other nations.

Oh yeah, Britain was trading its ass off in the Himalayas, Kenya, or South Africa. The Empire was built on monopolizing resources, on maintaining regions of the world in poverty on purpose. Sure, what I have said is not an absolute rule, but we can adequately describe colonialism (British, American, French, Italian...) as "plunder".
Essential word: "colonialism". A colony is not the trade empire the Russians had in Alaska. It is getting population in there, taking hold of the resources, establishing a "superior culture", "Christianity", "the master race" etc. Don't whitewash.

NOTE: I have said, and still have to say some harsh things about the US as well (past and present). Please don't take me out of context.

The US suffers from it, the US created it. It's like a viral infection; the only cure is to kill the virus, in this case the United States of America.
I think I like you.:)

Anyone would have thought we'd realise by now we've not been enemies now for nearly 200 years (when we whipped your arses :p).


Don't be such an arrogant American. With out the French to pull us out, we would have lost the revolution and perhaps still be a part of the UK.

Open Curtains...

good for them to nationalize
Show me one example where that has made the people better off, disregarding cases in which countries were simply colonies controlled by foreign interests (and even then, the cases are few and far between).

the free market is the right hand of evil.
What is so evil about people trading by mutual consent?

the rioting is in responce to companies (i.e. private buisness:upyours: ) wanting the ability to fire anyone because of age.
No, if anything it is the response to the insensitive way the government has gone about introducing policies they hope will help young people get a start in their working lives.

And by the way...don't you want to take life into your own hands one day and start your own business, doing what you're good at?

France isn't going to fall, who would they fall to?
Mediocrity being preached in the name of an unnamed public's welfare.

Don't be such an arrogant American. With out the French to pull us out, we would have lost the revolution and perhaps still be a part of the UK.
I've been called many things, but that's a first.

Look at my location bar.

And I was actually referring to the War of 1812.

I think I like you.:)

well thank you. I think I like you too. If you think that the American capitalist/neo-con-facist government has run it's course and is obsolete, old news, out of date and the "New World Order" is Hell on Earth. Than I plainly and simply like you.

I've been called many things, but that's a first.

Look at my location bar.

And I was actually referring to the War of 1812.


true, true, and my apologies. yes you guys did burn down the White House (if i have my wars straight, it's 5:13 am and i don't know how well my brain is functioning right now, but I feel pretty good).

well thank you. I think I like you too. If you think that the American capitalist/neo-con-facist government has run it's course and is obsolete, old news, out of date and the "New World Order" is Hell on Earth. Than I plainly and simply like you.
Absolutely. Say. Your not the reincarnation of The Red Arrow by any chance?

And I was actually referring to the War of 1812.
"whipped your asses"? Come on. The War of 1812 was probably the best example of a tie if there ever was any.

Absolutely. Say. Your not the reincarnation of The Red Arrow by any chance?


If you mean the RAF Aerobatic Team, then no. As far as i can tell if I'm the reincarnation of anyone its Che Guevara. I absolutly love that man:)

"whipped your asses"? Come on. The War of 1812 was probably the best example of a tie if there ever was any.
lol, I know. I was just being provocative in a tongue in cheek way after saying we should stop bashing each other. :p

As far as i can tell if I'm the reincarnation of anyone its Che Guevara. I absolutly love that man:)
http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/square-large-checap.gif

http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/square-large-checap.gif

The man is spinning in his grave over what his legacy has become.

The man is spinning in his grave over what his legacy has become.

yeah, the shirts, books...I went out and found a copy of Gueriila War online and copied it to my computer. And I know Che wouldn't care. Fuck Capitalism.:mp5: