NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.veronicamd.com/gallery2/?video=BILLY2.wmv

Watch - she is going to become more high profile in the near future.

Your thoughts?

What the hell is that bullshit? Is it meant to be a joke?

Veronica is my '67 VW Split-window camper bus.

I read the first third of "Who is Veronica..." and didn't appeal...

Veronica is my '67 VW Split-window camper bus.

I read the first third of "Who is Veronica..." and didn't appeal...

I think your Veronica is much more interesting.

How amusing. Far-right conservative propaganda...

I think your Veronica is much more interesting.
I think so, too.

I think so, too.
I do as well, but I'm biased...;)

Most amusing is that her blog has been up for a month and has only had one comment. Also, she has only posted twice! How are the women of the world supposed to know how to be a good wife and do it all if she can't help us?!

“I just feel women have lost their way,” exclaims Veronica as her deep brown eyes dance with excitement. “We've forgotten how to be good wives before being good mothers, and it seems we've forgotten that ‘serving' and ‘obeying' our husbands is not a bad thing at all.”

Sounds like a joke to me, but then....meh, America.

http://www.veronicamd.com/gallery2/?video=BILLY2.wmv

Watch - she is going to become more high profile in the near future.

Your thoughts?
LOL! Well, she certainly doesn't pull her punches. My conclusion: I might not agree with everything she says, but she's one hell of a courageous woman.

Pathetic.

Pathetic.

Seconded. It's like that BNP advert a few years ago that used a supposed Sikh member of the BNP to talk about how bad immigrants are. The woman is either a willing or unwilling puppet, or a tool.

Seconded. It's like that BNP advert a few years ago that used a supposed Sikh member of the BNP to talk about how bad immigrants are. The woman is either a willing or unwilling puppet, or a tool.
There is always the possibility that she is in fact a true believer. It is possible she came to those conclusions and really honestly believes that's the way to go. It doesn't matter why she made the argument that's important as much as the argument itself. (which, granting I only read very little of it, I disagree with)

There is always the possibility that she is in fact a true believer. It is possible she came to those conclusions and really honestly believes that's the way to go. It doesn't matter why she made the argument that's important as much as the argument itself. (which, granting I only read very little of it, I disagree with)

In my view, that just makes it worse. The fact that the argument is so much conservative garbage only furthers my disgust. I can't believe that there are women who would truly believe their place is in servitude and that men are their superiors. It boggles my mind at times...

In my view, that just makes it worse. The fact that the argument is so much conservative garbage only furthers my disgust. I can't believe that there are women who would truly believe their place is in servitude and that men are their superiors. It boggles my mind at times...

I dont think she believes women are to serve men, I think she is saying they have a diffrent role to men. She certianly doesnt believe they are to be confined to the home since she works herself. But I think she believes that women have a duty to their homes and children.

In my view, that just makes it worse. The fact that the argument is so much conservative garbage only furthers my disgust. I can't believe that there are women who would truly believe their place is in servitude and that men are their superiors. It boggles my mind at times...
Son, I seriously doubt that woman things anyone, male or female, is her "superior," or that women should be in any sort of "servitude." Why not ask her?

I dont think she believes women are to serve men, I think she is saying they have a diffrent role to men. She certianly doesnt believe they are to be confined to the home since she works herself. But I think she believes that women have a duty to their homes and children.

I point you to my above post.

I din't click on what looks like nasty porn.

I dont think she believes women are to serve men, I think she is saying they have a diffrent role to men. She certianly doesnt believe they are to be confined to the home since she works herself. But I think she believes that women have a duty to their homes and children.
He just likes to rant about finding "conservatives" under his bed. :D

I din't click on what looks like nasty porn.
Huh? S'plain, please. :confused:

He just likes to rant about finding "conservatives" under his bed. :D

Do I need to bold it?

“I just feel women have lost their way,” exclaims Veronica as her deep brown eyes dance with excitement. “We've forgotten how to be good wives before being good mothers, and it seems we've forgotten that ‘serving' and ‘obeying' our husbands is not a bad thing at all.”

Am I missing something? She doesn't believe women are to serve men?

Huh? S'plain, please.

It's just some silly conservative propaganda. There's nothing pornographic about it, though if you're a woman and value your freedom, I would suggest not clicking on it, anyway, as it's rather reactionary.

He just likes to rant about finding "conservatives" under his bed. :D

Who likes to rant?

Who is Veronica?
It's the name of a Dutch TV channel.

Son, I seriously doubt that woman things anyone, male or female, is her "superior," or that women should be in any sort of "servitude." Why not ask her?
Stop patronizing, Dad. Granddad. Missing Link.

Stop patronizing, Dad. Granddad. Missing Link.
No.

Son

Hmm, vanity.

No.
Par for the course for someone who thinks we ought to restrict our freedoms to suit his phobias, and who incidentally has his own online cult.

someone who thinks we ought to restrict our freedoms to suit his phobias
Your proof?

The only Veronica I know belongs to CTOaN.

The only Veronica I know belongs to CTOaN.
You get my first ever :fluffle:!

You get my first ever :fluffle:!



;) :fluffle:

Huh? S'plain, please. :confused:
I think he was prob thinking of this Veronica:
http://www.desktopsluts.com/Images/BugWallpaper01.jpg

Huh? S'plain, please. :confused:
I was joking

Who is B0zzy?

Your proof?

Little gem (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=474598).

In my view, that just makes it worse. The fact that the argument is so much conservative garbage only furthers my disgust. I can't believe that there are women who would truly believe their place is in servitude and that men are their superiors. It boggles my mind at times...

I missed the part where she discusses female servitude and gender superiority. Please clarify and be specific. What specifically does she say which you disagree with?

I think he was prob thinking of this Veronica:
http://www.desktopsluts.com/Images/BugWallpaper01.jpg
No, but now that you bring her up ... ! :D

I think he was prob thinking of this Veronica:

She's a little cuter than the one I was thinking of ...
http://www.lostonwallace.com/veronica1.jpg

Little gem (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=474598).
ROFLMAO! So if I understand what you're trying to say, in your own inimitable style, I'm trying to limit freedoms in general because I object to some ignorant asshole calling me a traitor in contravention of the rules in a private forum? You really need to get a grip, dude.

ROFLMAO! So if I understand what you're trying to say, in your own inimitable style, I'm trying to limit freedoms in general because I object to some ignorant asshole calling me a traitor in contravention of the rules in a private forum? You really need to get a grip, dude.

Hey, you're reading too far into my post. Assumptions, assumptions. I just thought it funny that you whined to the mods because you felt insulted on a virtual forum. I'm not the one who needs to get a grip, nor am I the one being a condescending old man. Son.

Hey, you're reading too far into my post. Assumptions, assumptions. I just thought it funny that you whined to the mods because you felt insulted on a virtual forum. I'm not the one who needs to get a grip, nor am I the one being a condescending old man. Son.
Whatever.

http://www.veronicamd.com/gallery2/?video=BILLY2.wmv

Watch - she is going to become more high profile in the near future.

Your thoughts?

is she serious? so does she think that men aren't supposed to do anything for themselves or their family? and whats that bullshit about moral values? her moral values seem pretty immoral to me.

is she serious? so does she think that men aren't supposed to do anything for themselves or their family? and whats that bullshit about moral values? her moral values seem pretty immoral to me.

Advocation of traditional gender roles is like blacks pushing for the return of slavery.

My favourite Veronica quote is probably that sex is "like crack cocaine. Once you start having it, you're not going to stop." Sex is like cocaine, except for the part where sex is nessacary to keep our species alive, and cocaine isn't (as far as I know).
I also love the part where Veronica blames wives for their husband's infidelity. Yes, my father definately cheated on my mum because my mum didn't know how to be a wife. In a few months, when my father is passing through town and wants to see me, I'll let him know that he is most certainly the victim in the situation.

Who is Veronica? Bush's sad attempt to win support at a time when his country is finally seeing the light and questioning him.

Advocation of traditional gender roles is like blacks pushing for the return of slavery.

exactly - hence immoral

C'mon now. Do you think we would have even heard of Monica Lewinsky if Hillary was in the Oval Office taking care of business?”
Great another person with no class...:rolleyes:

Who is Veronica? A black female posterchild for the Reactionary movement.

Reminds me of the Southpark where Nambla uses Cartman as their poster-child. "If we show America that children want to be molested, we'll win!":rolleyes:

A cunningly-crafted piece of clip-art.

That's who.

This is the political expression of "...really..... I have, uhhh, black friends. Yeah."

If she wants to stay at home that's fine, but to say that all women should do this is silly.

Who is Veronica? A black female posterchild for the Reactionary movement.

Reminds me of the Southpark where Nambla uses Cartman as their poster-child. "If we show America that children want to be molested, we'll win!":rolleyes:

Exactly.

Malcolm X would have some choice words about this type of thing:

To understand this, you have to go back to what [the] young brother here referred to as the house Negro and the field Negro -- back during slavery. There was two kinds of slaves. There was the house Negro and the field Negro. The house Negroes - they lived in the house with master, they dressed pretty good, they ate good 'cause they ate his food -- what he left. They lived in the attic or the basement, but still they lived near the master; and they loved their master more than the master loved himself. They would give their life to save the master's house quicker than the master would. The house Negro, if the master said, "We got a good house here," the house Negro would say, "Yeah, we got a good house here." Whenever the master said "we," he said "we." That's how you can tell a house Negro.

If the master's house caught on fire, the house Negro would fight harder to put the blaze out than the master would. If the master got sick, the house Negro would say, "What's the matter, boss, we sick?" We sick! He identified himself with his master more than his master identified with himself. And if you came to the house Negro and said, "Let's run away, let's escape, let's separate," the house Negro would look at you and say, "Man, you crazy. What you mean, separate? Where is there a better house than this? Where can I wear better clothes than this? Where can I eat better food than this?" That was that house Negro. In those days he was called a "house ******." And that's what we call him today, because we've still got some house niggers running around here.

This modern house Negro loves his master. He wants to live near him. He'll pay three times as much as the house is worth just to live near his master, and then brag about "I'm the only Negro out here." "I'm the only one on my job." "I'm the only one in this school." You're nothing but a house Negro. And if someone comes to you right now and says, "Let's separate," you say the same thing that the house Negro said on the plantation. "What you mean, separate? From America? This good white man? Where you going to get a better job than you get here?" I mean, this is what you say. "I ain't left nothing in Africa," that's what you say. Why, you left your mind in Africa.

On that same plantation, there was the field Negro. The field Negro -- those were the masses. There were always more Negroes in the field than there was Negroes in the house. The Negro in the field caught hell. He ate leftovers. In the house they ate high up on the hog. The Negro in the field didn't get nothing but what was left of the insides of the hog. They call 'em "chitt'lin'" nowadays. In those days they called them what they were: guts. That's what you were -- a gut-eater. And some of you all still gut-eaters.

The field Negro was beaten from morning to night. He lived in a shack, in a hut; He wore old, castoff clothes. He hated his master. I say he hated his master. He was intelligent. That house Negro loved his master. But that field Negro -- remember, they were in the majority, and they hated the master. When the house caught on fire, he didn't try and put it out; that field Negro prayed for a wind, for a breeze. When the master got sick, the field Negro prayed that he'd die. If someone come [sic] to the field Negro and said, "Let's separate, let's run," he didn't say "Where we going?" He'd say, "Any place is better than here." You've got field Negroes in America today. I'm a field Negro. The masses are the field Negroes. When they see this man's house on fire, you don't hear these little Negroes talking about "our government is in trouble." They say, "The government is in trouble." Imagine a Negro: "Our government"! I even heard one say "our astronauts." They won't even let him near the plant -- and "our astronauts"! "Our Navy" -- that's a Negro that's out of his mind. That's a Negro that's out of his mind.

Just as the slavemaster of that day used Tom, the house Negro, to keep the field Negroes in check, the same old slavemaster today has Negroes who are nothing but modern Uncle Toms, 20th century Uncle Toms, to keep you and me in check, keep us under control, keep us passive and peaceful and nonviolent

is she serious? so does she think that men aren't supposed to do anything for themselves or their family? and whats that bullshit about moral values? her moral values seem pretty immoral to me.

I missed the part where she relieved men of doing anything for themselves or their family - do you have a quote or do you just want to think you heard that?

Advocation of traditional gender roles is like blacks pushing for the return of slavery.


ROFLMAO!!! Did you just equivocate the traditional family with slavery? LOL - how out of touch can you be!

I also love the part where Veronica blames wives for their husband's infidelity. Yes, my father definately cheated on my mum because my mum didn't know how to be a wife. In a few months, when my father is passing through town and wants to see me, I'll let him know that he is most certainly the victim in the situation.



It is a real possibility which may not qualify for all cases, but certaily has enough merit to warrant consideration - just the same as a woman's infidelity can stem from a man not knowing how to be a husband. I am sorry to hear about your parents.

I missed the part where she relieved men of doing anything for themselves or their family - do you have a quote or do you just want to think you heard that?

At the beginning of the video clip, Veronica goes on about how women, when they marry, agree to take care of the needs of their husbands. She also constantly tries to enforce the idea of women being submissive, homemaker types, while men make the money and the descions.

"We all want men who have our back financially. But remember, to keep that alpha male husband happy, wives need to be wives. Families run well with one hunter/gatherer and one carer/nurturer. Sometimes these roles overlap but don't get confused. Even though you do some hunting and gathering , he didn't marry you for that. He wanted a wife."

ROFLMAO!!! Did you just equivocate the traditional family with slavery? LOL - how out of touch can you be!
No Zanato said that advocation of traditional gender roles is like blacks pushing for the return of slavery.

Just how out of touch is your reading comprehension level?

This is the political expression of "...really..... I have, uhhh, black friends. Yeah."

If she wants to stay at home that's fine, but to say that all women should do this is silly.


I'm not certain where you divine she says all women should stay home. Can you be more spefic how you came to that conclusion?

ROFLMAO!!! Did you just equivocate the traditional family with slavery? LOL - how out of touch can you be!

Well, both patriarchy and slavery involve subjugating a social group and forcing them to work and obey another, so the comparison isn't that inaccurate.

Exactly.

Malcolm X would have some choice words about this type of thing:

[INDENT]To understand this, you have to go back to what [the] young brother here referred to as the house Negro and the field Negro (snip)

Umm, OK Mr. Belafonte. Say 'Hi' to Mr. Powell for me.

ROFLMAO!!! Did you just equivocate the traditional family with slavery? LOL - how out of touch can you be!

Let me guess. You're a male, right? Because if you were a woman, you would understand how infinitely important all the reversal in gender roles have been. Not one hundred years ago, women couldn't vote, and were allowed only select jobs. Women stayed at home, doing the cooking and the cleaning. And, though some women may enjoy a traditional homemaker role, many others love the sense of empowerment that comes along with having a well-paying job.
I've grown up with the expectation that I get a career and support myself. And, you know what? It feels good, like maybe women are finally reaching a point where we can be seen as equal in abilities to men. Veronica's attitude goes against that, and jeopardises the self-esteem of millions of North American girls.

At the beginning of the video clip, Veronica goes on about how women, when they marry, agree to take care of the needs of their husbands. She also constantly tries to enforce the idea of women being submissive, homemaker types, while men make the money and the descions.

"We all want men who have our back financially. But remember, to keep that alpha male husband happy, wives need to be wives. Families run well with one hunter/gatherer and one carer/nurturer. Sometimes these roles overlap but don't get confused. Even though you do some hunting and gathering , he didn't marry you for that. He wanted a wife."

Thank you for being specific. You don't agree that a person takes on responsibility for their spouse in marriage? Do you not consider a man responsible to his wife? A woman not responsible to her husband? Where is it you find her position that wome must be submissive? Do you consider all women who assume the nurturing role in a household submissive?

Well, both patriarchy and slavery involve subjugating a social group and forcing them to work and obey another, so the comparison isn't that inaccurate.
You believe all stay-at-home parents are subjicated?

You believe all stay-at-home parents are subjicated?
Why don't you try answering some of the questions put forward to you?

Or is trolling as far as you're willing to take it?

Thank you for being specific. You don't agree that a person takes on responsibility for their spouse in marriage? Do you not consider a man responsible to his wife? A woman not responsible to her husband? Where is it you find her position that wome must be submissive? Do you consider all women who assume the nurturing role in a household submissive?

"I think women should obey and submit to their husbands… When I really started feeling there wasn't a constant friction was when I said, O.K."

She says alot about women taking care of their husbands, making breakfast for them, etc, but she says nothing about men taking care of their wives. Making money, yes. But taking care, no.

Let me guess. You're a male, right? Because if you were a woman, you would understand how infinitely important all the reversal in gender roles have been.

Are you gender stereotyping me? Yes. Has there been a reversal in gender roles? Umm, I missed that part - explaim how roles have reversed and, if so, why that is good.


Not one hundred years ago, women couldn't vote, and were allowed only select jobs. Women stayed at home, doing the cooking and the cleaning. And, though some women may enjoy a traditional homemaker role, many others love the sense of empowerment that comes along with having a well-paying job.
I've grown up with the expectation that I get a career and support myself. And, you know what? It feels good, like maybe women are finally reaching a point where we can be seen as equal in abilities to men. Veronica's attitude goes against that, and jeopardises the self-esteem of millions of North American girls.
What does anything Veronica said have to do with voting? Do you think a stay-at-home parent does not have rights? How is it you feel that Veronica is a threat to your ability to pursue a career? Considering she is a Doctor I don't see how you come to that conclusion.

You believe all stay-at-home parents are subjicated?

Not all stay-at-home parents are subjicated. But simply being a stay-at-home wife does not make a wife "traditional." "Traditional" has other implications, including that of submissiveness and allowing the male to take control and make the important choices.

Why don't you try answering some of the questions put forward to you?

Or is trolling as far as you're willing to take it?

What questions have been put forward? Ask one and I will be glad to. If you consider it trolling to ask you for details about how you come to your conclusions and/or beliefs then I suggest that you are far to thin skinned for this forum.

"I think women should obey and submit to their husbands… When I really started feeling there wasn't a constant friction was when I said, O.K."

She says alot about women taking care of their husbands, making breakfast for them, etc, but she says nothing about men taking care of their wives. Making money, yes. But taking care, no.
YES! Finally, someone with a good point! Thanks. Something I can agree with. YEs, a marriage is about BOTH spouses caring for each other. For men it is more than bringing home a paycheck. Veronica focuses primarily on the women. I would presume her reply would be because there is so much noice out there confusing women of their obligations in a marriage - but I would readily agree that there is not enough information out there for men about being an adequate spouse either - there is no noise for that matter ether. In fact - it is just a big blank NADA for men. Sad.

Thanks for a good point.

(though I did miss the part when she suggested making breakfast - is that really in there?)

Not all stay-at-home parents are subjicated. But simply being a stay-at-home wife does not make a wife "traditional." "Traditional" has other implications, including that of submissiveness and allowing the male to take control and make the important choices.
Where did you find your definition of 'traditional'?

Are you gender stereotyping me? Yes. Has there been a reversal in gender roles? Umm, I missed that part - explaim how roles have reversed and, if so, why that is good.


What does anything Veronica said have to do with voting? Do you think a stay-at-home parent does not have rights? How is it you feel that Veronica is a threat to your ability to pursue a career? Considering she is a Doctor I don't see how you come to that conclusion.

I'm not gender stereotyping you. I'm inferring as to your gender based on your statements. If I said I thought Hitler had the right idea about Jews, what religion would you suppose I belonged to? Certainly not Judaism.
There has been a gender role-reversal in many families. That's why it's now acceptable for men to take a more nuturing role and women to have the high-paying job. In many families, both partners try to take an equal role when it comes to working and child-rearing. That's good because it allows two things: a) independence for the female partner b) the male partner to bond with his children.
I've already adressed the difference between stay-at-home parents and "traditional" wives in one of my previous posts. Veronica does not say that I can't have a career; she says my top priority should be my husband, and that I should not attempt to secure a higher-paying job than my husband. That threatens my ability to feel powerful and independent.

This message has been deleted by Eutrusca. Reason: Nevermind. Pointless, pointless, poinless

Aww, come on! You have to admit making people re-examine their beliefs and bias is fun.

Where did you find your definition of 'traditional'?

I have a general idea of what Veronica means by "traditional." It doesn't come from anywhere in particular. Just years of experience.

I'm not gender stereotyping you. I'm inferring as to your gender based on your statements.
Ummm. That is stereotyping.

If I said I thought Hitler had the right idea about Jews, what religion would you suppose I belonged to? Certainly not Judaism.
Thank you for invoking Goodwin's law. I WIN!! (yay!)

There has been a gender role-reversal in many families. That's why it's now acceptable for men to take a more nuturing role and women to have the high-paying job. In many families, both partners try to take an equal role when it comes to working and child-rearing. That's good because it allows two things: a) independence for the female partner b) the male partner to bond with his children.
That would not be role reversal. It would be role-expansion.

I've already adressed the difference between stay-at-home parents and "traditional" wives in one of my previous posts. Veronica does not say that I can't have a career; she says my top priority should be my husband, and that I should not attempt to secure a higher-paying job than my husband.
You don't feel that your spouse should be your highest priority and obligation in a marriage?

That threatens my ability to feel powerful and independent.
Umm, why would you want to feel independent in a marriage?

I have a general idea of what Veronica means by "traditional." It doesn't come from anywhere in particular. Just years of experience.


Ahh, I see, so you just made it up yourself and chose not to share it with anyone else.

Whatever.


Sorry to say, but I have an obligation to my spouse now (yes, really I do - a dinner party) so I must go.

Goodnight.

There was an old Beatles song which ended, "The love you take is equal to the love you make." Some on here would do well to consider that as sound advice indeed.

Ummm. That is stereotyping.

Thank you for invoking Goodwin's law. I WIN!! (yay!)

That would not be role reversal. It would be role-expansion.

You don't feel that your spouse should be your highest priority and obligation in a marriage?

Umm, why would you want to feel independent in a marriage?


I wasn't aware that NS General was juvenile enough to fall under the rule if Godwin's Law.

I won't even argue with you on the role-reversal issue. Apperently to you, reversing roles is not a role-reversal.

In my marriage, I wouldn't feel that my spouse was the highest priority. If my husband were to beat me, should I let him, as he is my highest priority?

Two people being completely dependent on eachother always leads to disaster. In any relationship, there should be at least some independence.

Ahh, I see, so you just made it up yourself and chose not to share it with anyone else.

Whatever.


Sorry to say, but I have an obligation to my spouse now (yes, really I do - a dinner party) so I must go.

Goodnight.

I did not make it up. I took the original definition of traditional and built on it, using my personal experiences. I've already shared what Veronica's definition of traditional is: a woman who is submissive in a relationship, taking the nurturing role, allowing the man to make descisons, allowing the man to make more money, etc. It's a generally accepted meaning of the word.

Does "Veronica" make calles, because I got a call from a Veroncia. It's really strange, because it left me quite confusied. Then I log in and see this...wtf?

Do you consider all women who assume the nurturing role in a household submissive?
Yes. In a capitalist system they are dependent on their husbands.

Her logic also seems quite circular. It's be a wife, because your husband wanted a wife. She doesn't say why the traditional wife-role is what we all should revert to.

That said, I think that it is good for children that one parent stay at hom to care for them. I just object to the notion that it must be the wife. Why not the husband, if it is more economically sound?

Yes. In a capitalist system they are dependent on their husbands.


Hmmmmm. My wife stays at home taking care of our girl. Submissive is hardly a word I could apply to her. She is Sicilian ;)

She likes it. She likes raising our child.

However, she will return to work as this "booming" Shrub economy has made it so she has to work.

Capitalism usually makes it so the woman has too work. Especially if you want to live in a house in certain parts of this country.

I did not make it up. I took the original definition of traditional and built on it, using my personal experiences. I've already shared what Veronica's definition of traditional is: a woman who is submissive in a relationship, taking the nurturing role, allowing the man to make descisons, allowing the man to make more money, etc. It's a generally accepted meaning of the word.
"Submissiveness" does not imply subservience.

"Submissiveness" does not imply subservience.

How do you figure? How can you be submissive without yielding to a greater authority?

I wasn't aware that NS General was juvenile enough to fall under the rule if Godwin's Law.

I won't even argue with you on the role-reversal issue. Apperently to you, reversing roles is not a role-reversal.

In my marriage, I wouldn't feel that my spouse was the highest priority. If my husband were to beat me, should I let him, as he is my highest priority?

Two people being completely dependent on eachother always leads to disaster. In any relationship, there should be at least some independence.

Invoking Goodwin's law IS the immature act - not pointing it out - bring your level of discourse to higher standards and it won't be a problem again.

As fare as your marriage, if you don't feel your spouse is your higest priority it is your business - but don't be surprized when your spouse shares that same sentiment - your marriage is doomed before it begins with an attitude like that. Not to mention you are already planning on what to do when your spouse beats you - do you really have such little regard for men - or just your ability to select one of quality? (not to mention negligence typically voids all)

There is a difference between dependance and unity. A marriage is a union. Two shall become one. etc. etc. Independance is incompatible with unity. If you want to be independant of a relationship it will no longer exist. A union is the perfect alignment of both parties interests as if they were only one.

I did not make it up. I took the original definition of traditional and built on it, using my personal experiences. I've already shared what Veronica's definition of traditional is: a woman who is submissive in a relationship, taking the nurturing role, allowing the man to make descisons, allowing the man to make more money, etc. It's a generally accepted meaning of the word.

You have yet to share your definition - it is like double-secret probation; You state your opposition to something which only you know what it means - with no regard that your definition does not align with the conventionally understood meaning of the term. Then you freely redefine everyone else’s meaning without thoughtful examination of what their definition really is. That is somewhere between hypocrisy and prejudice.

You are mostly incorrect about Veronica's definition of traditional. I don't see her endorsing submissiveness. I'm not sure how you determine that submissiveness and nurturing are synonymous. I'm not sure where you get the idea that she endorses unilateral household decision making. I'm not sure how you feel anyone can allow or disallow a spouse to earn a particular level of income.

What she does correctly point out is that in the values women look for in mate selection the ability of a man to be a 'provider' is something highly regarded. In fact - most women refuse to 'marry down'. With the lower enrollment of men into college it is becoming a concern for women - even feminists - that women will have to 'marry down'. There is no reason why a man should not be just as able to select women with high potential as 'nurturer' in their mate selection.

there are women who would truly believe their place is in servitude and that men are their superiors. It boggles my mind at times...

You are right!

And I guess, in a roundabout way, Veronica explained why gay people are so confused!! Every needs a master! Which boy goes on top?

Hmmmmm. My wife stays at home taking care of our girl. Submissive is hardly a word I could apply to her. She is Sicilian ;)

She likes it. She likes raising our child.

However, she will return to work as this "booming" Shrub economy has made it so she has to work.

Capitalism usually makes it so the woman has too work. Especially if you want to live in a house in certain parts of this country.

Congrats that your wife and you can make it go on a single income. My youngest is going into school next year. My wife just started working weekends this year - mostly as a way to get out of her routine. Next year she will take on more hours. We are lucky that we are not dependant on her income - but it is nice.

I remember hearing somewhere once that when you figure the additional costs of a second income (for a household with before school age children) it is often not worth it. (daycare, additional taxes, extra meal costs, gas, etc.) They found that with some meal planning, coupon clipping and financial restrain most middle income families actually could make a go on a single income. I don't really remember where I saw that - but I remember thinking how I'd like to see the balance sheet for their theory; If it is accurate it holds considerable potential. I don't think the financial strain of most family is nearly so much a result of capitalism as much as it is on consumerism.

Regardless - once the kids are in school there really is no reason why a second career can't be started - the largest cost - daycare - is moot. I personally couldn't be happier about my wife's work - in fact - if she stayed home after the kids were in school I'd probably be bent.