NationStates Jolt Archive

EDIT: What I mean is "Can you ever feel truly "at home" in a different culture/language?" (i.e. not just "Can you speak the language like a pro?")

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I was reminded of this question by the Whatcha sound Like? thread, and here's what I mean:

I lived in the US for 14 months a few years ago. There was always this last bit of "unexplored territory" in the English language that, no matter how fluent I thought I was, I could never really understand (btw, my English has since suffered from years of only passive use, so please hold the "Bah, no wonder you didn't get it, your English suckz!" comments. :p).


For one, words can have all these very specific colloquial connotations and nuances, which a native speaker knows without even thinking about, yet which for a foreigner would take years and years of listening & learning.

For example, one of my flatmates had this apparently very weird sister whom he used to describe as "intense". Now I know the word "intense", yet I don't know its connotations when used in the wholesale description of a person. I mean I could guess that this meant she was probably high-strung, but that's about it. He never found a better way to describe her, so I still don't know what his sister is like.


Additionally, there's the way someone talks. Not their voice, and not even their accent, but just the way they talk. You know, do they sound super laid-back, or arrogant, or bitchy, or whiny, or a bit dim-witted, etc.

For example, SoWiBi said I sounded somewhat "snobbish/upper class" in the German sample I put up in the other thread, and she's right. I put on my best non-accent standard German voice, and it does sound slightly snobbish. Nobody who is not a native speaker would ever have caught that - unless he's been living here for a really, really long time, maybe.

I had a kind of epiphany in that vein when I once met this German guy at a party in the US. His English was perfect, impeccable American accent (he'd lived there for a while), and he seemed nice enough. Then he started talking in German and I couldn't believe it. Before he had even finished the first sentence, I had flagged him as an "arrogant, bragging, rich kid asshole". It wasn't what he said (or I would have noticed in English, too, obviously), it was how he spoke. Ugh. What a prick.

Incidentally, this also means that I can't tell what any of the English samples in the thread really say about their owners - all I really hear is voice and accent, not the "meta level".


So, what do you think?

Can you ever feel really "at home" in a language the way you do in your first language?
Does it just take a really long time of living in another country? Or will there always be things you just don't know or notice?


ETA: I made the poll multiple choice - because who wouldn't want to vote for chocolate?

I am fluent in Danish and English.

With a bit of practice, I could be fluent in French, but I've neglected it too much.

But I swear that I am fluent in Danish and English and Danish is my mother tongue while I speak better English :P

EDIT: YES, I can adapt to other cultures as well. It might take a while, but as long as I can speak the original language fluently, I have no issue in using local dialects. In fact, I might even make some of my own :p

Of course you can become fluent in a language, but you are talking about cultural fluency as well. I would not feel culturally fluent in another English-speaking country...hell, I might not even feel culturally fluent in other English-speaking parts of Canada! (Newfoundland comes to mind) There are connotations, slang, idioms and all sorts of linguistic foibles I simply won't understand. That in no way means I am not fluent in the English language.

You tell me: am I?

There's also the situation where people have more than one mother tongue. I grew up in a multilingual and multicultural household, so I would say that I am fluent, linguistically and culturally, in two languages.

Of course you can become fluent in a language, but you are talking about cultural fluency as well. I would not feel culturally fluent in another English-speaking country...hell, I might not even feel culturally fluent in other English-speaking parts of Canada! (Newfoundland comes to mind) There are connotations, slang, idioms and all sorts of linguistic foibles I simply won't understand. That in no way means I am not fluent in the English language.

Curses! The first title for the thread was "Can you ever feel truly "at home" in a different culture/language?"... Guess I should've kept that one...:(

Because, yeah, obviously one can be fluent in a language, but that's indeed not what I meant.

I am fluent in English

and all the people that I meet (that dont know that my first language is spanish) once i tell them that it is, they go "wow" cuz i have no accent. and i talk the way they do

Although I am happy speaking German, I know I am not fluent when it comes to writing German. I have real problems when it comes to learning grammar (I keep fucking up verb subject agreements, you know, all the basics, but when I speak it comes out ok).

I believe that you can't become comfortable speaking another language until you have experienced it for yourself. You need to immerse yourself in that language, but even then you get all the local dialects (Swaebish and Bayrisch are an arse to listen to...and then theres the Swiss...;) :D ), and until you have a little experience with them, I don't believe you can be wholly comfortable with any language.

Hell, even those who speak English don't speak the same language, look at the difference between accents/local dialects in Newcastle, London, New York, Texas and British Coloumbia. You put people from all those places together, there is going to be a certain amount of difficulty when it comes to local sayings and slight misunderstandings.

With that said, you can have the basic structure of any language and will be able to converse in that language.

Swaebish and Bayrisch are an arse to listen to...and then theres the Swiss...;) :D )
Heh, I should totally make a sample in Schwäbisch, just to annoy you. :p

Oh great.

I just managed to vote "Sure you cannah, not really!"

While I consider myself quite fluent in English and I sometimes have trouble finding the German word while the English one pops up instantly - there will always be things I won't get, no matter how much English I speak or no matter how much time I spend in an English-speaking country (or forum!).

Well, anyhow, I don't have to translate from one language (German) to the other one (English) anymore - it's more like the information in my head can pick either channel to be voiced (if you know what I mean).

I definitely feel at home in German and very comfortable in English. :D

Full fluency isn’t just being able to use a language with some degree of competency. To me being truly fluent occurs when you actually dream in a foreign language.

The Bruce

I've been told that when you start thinking in a language, consider yourself fluent.

Full fluency isn’t just being able to use a language with some degree of competency. To me being truly fluent occurs when you actually dream in a foreign language.

... and people (e.g. my Grandma who didn't speak a word of English) talk to you in that very language!!!

Been there, done that. It actually is a good sign!

Oh great.

I just managed to vote "Sure you cannah, not really!"
I was wondering about that. :D

While I consider myself quite fluent in English and I sometimes have trouble finding the German word while the English one pops up instantly - there will always be things I won't get, no matter how much English I speak or no matter how much time I spend in an English-speaking country (or forum!).
Same here. I certainly do consider myself fluent in English (which doesn't mean I don't make mistakes, obviously), just not 100% "culturally fluent". And I could slap myself for screwing up thread title & poll... *sigh*

it's more like the information in my head can pick either channel to be voiced (if you know what I mean). Sure do. Almost all the reading I do is in English, as are the movies I see, and on days like today where I'm at home all day and on the internet, I'm guessing my brain works in English about 80% of the time. I don't consciously realize anymore if some article on some website is in English or German, I just read it and that's it.

Heh, I should totally make a sample in Schwäbisch, just to annoy you. :p

*Waves fist in general direction!!!* :p

Its still not as bad as Bayrisch...

Well, anyhow, I don't have to translate from one language (German) to the other one (English) anymore - it's more like the information in my head can pick either channel to be voiced (if you know what I mean).

I definitely feel at home in German and very comfortable in English. :D

Thats how is I feel.

Last summer after coming back from a year in Friedrichshafen, I kept putting german words into my english sentances as they came to me quicker than the english words did :D But I don't have to think to translate anymore, it just happens without much thought...I should really put that spare thought towards how to get the word order right lol :D

*Waves fist in general direction!!!* :p

Its still not as bad as Bayrisch...
I wouldn't know about how bad either of them is to understand as a foreigner, but from an "auditory pleasantness" viewpoint, Bayrisch is a LOT more bearable than Schwäbisch.

Now Swiss German - that's a whole different story... :D

I've been told that when you start thinking in a language, consider yourself fluent.

Kinda, but without constant practice you can fall out of fluency really easily. I am not at the level I was last year in speaking german as I don't speak it as often as I did, I no longer dream or think in german anymore... shame... it was amusing...

It's perfectly possible. According to something I read a while ago, it's possible to reach native level after studying and practicing the language for about 20 years.

I honestly don't know. I can speak in French without translating from English in my head, but I don't really consider myself fluent. I probably won't consider myself fluent until I have nearly as strong a command of the French language as I do of the English language.

I'm spending a semester in France next year, so I'm sure I'll change my opinion on the whole thing.

I don't know first hand, since my Spanish is limited to a few useful phrases like, "No hablo Espanol". But I'd think to really become fluent in a language, you'd have to be immersed in it. I'd never become fluent from a Spanish class, not even a good one, but I might if I spent a few years south of the border (or in Florida) with a native speaker to help me learn. Culturally fluent is even harder; I'm not sure I'm there even in English! :p

I hardly feel fluent in my native culture. Alienated/disenfranchised 4tehwin :p

I can understand your question, but I don't know if it applies. For instance, I am a native English speaker (from the U.S.) and so have been speaking it all my life. Earlier today, I was on NS and a British person used the expression "on the pull". It's a combination of English words, and so I recognized them, but wasn't sure what that expression meant, so I asked. So what I'm trying to say is that I wouldn't feel at home speaking German in Germany (I took German for five years when I was in school) when I wouldn't even feel at home speaking English in England.
Make sense?

I can understand your question, but I don't know if it applies. For instance, I am a native English speaker (from the U.S.) and so have been speaking it all my life. Earlier today, I was on NS and a British person used the expression "on the pull". It's a combination of English words, and so I recognized them, but wasn't sure what that expression meant, so I asked. So what I'm trying to say is that I wouldn't feel at home speaking German in Germany (I took German for five years when I was in school) when I wouldn't even feel at home speaking English in England.
Make sense?
Sure does.

Makes sense.

And, uhm, what does "on the pull" mean?

(Is it similar to "on the prowl"?)

I wouldn't know about how bad either of them is to understand as a foreigner, but from an "auditory pleasantness" viewpoint, Bayrisch is a LOT more bearable than Schwäbisch.

Now Swiss German - that's a whole different story... :D

Swiss german isn't german...it's mush! Listening to it is an aural onslaught ;)

Makes sense.

And, uhm, what does "on the pull" mean?Lol. Well the first person who explained the definition to be said it meant "looking for a shag" which is amusing for what I said because "shag" also has a different connotation in Britain. I only know what it means because I saw the Austin Powers movies. At the time I seriously thought the movie writers made the term up.

Lol. Well the first person who explained the definition to be said it meant "looking for a shag" which is amusing for what I said because "shag" also has a different connotation in Britain. I only know what it means because I saw the Austin Powers movies. At the time I seriously thought the movie writers made the term up.

Well considering, and this just might be the people I know, using the term 'shag' is pretty out dated...

'On the pull' however, is used a lot more.

EDIT: What I mean is "Can you ever feel truly "at home" in a different culture/language?" (i.e. not just "Can you speak the language like a pro?")Ah. Answer is no. I don't feel at home in either American or German culture and I don't see myself ever doing so.

Ah. Answer is no. I don't feel at home in either American or German culture and I don't see myself ever doing so.
See, I knew somebody would eventually have to see that li'l pink thing. :p
So, are you part American, part German then?

See, I knew somebody would eventually have to see that li'l pink thing. :p
So, are you part American, part German then?Yupyup. Dual-citizenship baby! :D

I'm rather cosmopolitan, and I also tend to reject the notion that cultures are monolithical and determine true identities. That said, although I may have near 100% compatibility with a person "from another culture", I don't think I could ever fit into a self-assertive culture - which is to say "the cliche of a culture" (Britishness as opposed to a given group of British people, Americanness as opposed to a given group of Americans etc).

I mean, I might bridge the gap established by the surprise an Anglo-Saxon creates when he shows himself/herself surprised by my adequate knowledge of English, but I would find myself at odds with the cliche Britishness is fond of, namely that all Romanians come from another planet.

Yupyup.
http://www.smilieworld.net/smilies/starwars_smilies/starwars051.gif

Swiss german isn't german...it's mush! Listening to it is an aural onslaught ;)

I’ve always liked the Swiss Germans I’ve met and being into cycle touring and going to the Rockies a lot, I’ve met a number of them. They’re very outgoing and pleasant. To me one of the sexiest accents is a Swiss German woman speaking French. It’s just a really nice sound.

The Bruce

To me one of the sexiest accents is a Swiss German woman speaking French. It’s just a really nice sound.
:eek: There really is no accounting for taste. :p
It's really too bad Alinania hasn't been around lately. She could probably make you real happy. For the record, though, I have no idea if she actually speaks French with a Swiss German accent. Actually, I'd guess her French is pretty damn perfect. Sorry.

EDIT: What I mean is "Can you ever feel truly "at home" in a different culture/language?" (i.e. not just "Can you speak the language like a pro?")

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I was reminded of this question by the Whatcha sound Like? thread, and here's what I mean:

I lived in the US for 14 months a few years ago. There was always this last bit of "unexplored territory" in the English language that, no matter how fluent I thought I was, I could never really understand (btw, my English has since suffered from years of only passive use, so please hold the "Bah, no wonder you didn't get it, your English suckz!" comments. :p).


For one, words can have all these very specific colloquial connotations and nuances, which a native speaker knows without even thinking about, yet which for a foreigner would take years and years of listening & learning.

For example, one of my flatmates had this apparently very weird sister whom he used to describe as "intense". Now I know the word "intense", yet I don't know its connotations when used in the wholesale description of a person. I mean I could guess that this meant she was probably high-strung, but that's about it. He never found a better way to describe her, so I still don't know what his sister is like.


Additionally, there's the way someone talks. Not their voice, and not even their accent, but just the way they talk. You know, do they sound super laid-back, or arrogant, or bitchy, or whiny, or a bit dim-witted, etc.

For example, SoWiBi said I sounded somewhat "snobbish/upper class" in the German sample I put up in the other thread, and she's right. I put on my best non-accent standard German voice, and it does sound slightly snobbish. Nobody who is not a native speaker would ever have caught that - unless he's been living here for a really, really long time, maybe.

I had a kind of epiphany in that vein when I once met this German guy at a party in the US. His English was perfect, impeccable American accent (he'd lived there for a while), and he seemed nice enough. Then he started talking in German and I couldn't believe it. Before he had even finished the first sentence, I had flagged him as an "arrogant, bragging, rich kid asshole". It wasn't what he said (or I would have noticed in English, too, obviously), it was how he spoke. Ugh. What a prick.

Incidentally, this also means that I can't tell what any of the English samples in the thread really say about their owners - all I really hear is voice and accent, not the "meta level".


So, what do you think?

Can you ever feel really "at home" in a language the way you do in your first language?
Does it just take a really long time of living in another country? Or will there always be things you just don't know or notice?


ETA: I made the poll multiple choice - because who wouldn't want to vote for chocolate?
Yes.

I think you can feel at home in another culture or language, and still not be fluent. I'm very comfortable with French - I often dream/think in French, and oftentimes French words come to me more quickly than English ones do (a lot of kids at my high school used to speak "Franglais" all the time - drove the teachers nuts when it happened in class). However I don't consider myself to be fluent in the language, because of the random words/phrases that come up from time to time that I don't know. Even if I were to live in France for years, I probably still wouldn't consider myself fluent.

I have a niece that came to the US from Korea at 10---20 years later She is fluent in English but still has problems with some words and connotations. She has also lost some of her Korean.

Second, there really is no place like home and once you leave you can never go home again. I've lived in several areas just in the US, and have never really known all the local traditions and inside jokes. It takes years just to find all the good fishing holes. But when I go back "home" those people have also changed and I'm not really part of that group either.

Yes, you can. In the nation of Paraguay, there are two official languages- not because there are separate groups of people, but because they speak both languages interchangeably. Having lived among Paraguayans for several months, and noticing how they go back and forth between either language, I can say with certainty that it is indeed possible to be fluent in two languages.

Yes, you can. In the nation of Paraguay, there are two official languages- not because there are separate groups of people, but because they speak both languages interchangeably. Having lived among Paraguayans for several months, and noticing how they go back and forth between either language, I can say with certainty that it is indeed possible to be fluent in two languages.
Oh, I don't doubt that. But that's probably like growing up bilingual. I meant "another language" as in one you learn as a second language (i.e. usually in school or even later).

I think you can. I was born in Italy and Italian was my first language but because I began learning English soon after I learned Italian, and I moved to the US at such a young age I'm fluent in both the language and culture.

I think you can. I was born in Italy and Italian was my first language but because I began learning English soon after I learned Italian, and I moved to the US at such a young age I'm fluent in both the language and culture.
Yes, that's exactly the scenario where I think it is possible, too.

There's also the situation where people have more than one mother tongue. I grew up in a multilingual and multicultural household, so I would say that I am fluent, linguistically and culturally, in two languages.

I know lots of people like this, children of Greek, Italian, Vietnamese, etc migrants who have grown up in Australia. They speak their parent's language at home & English elsewhere. I would think they're culturally & linguistically fluent in both languages.

I’ve always liked the Swiss Germans I’ve met and being into cycle touring and going to the Rockies a lot, I’ve met a number of them. They’re very outgoing and pleasant. To me one of the sexiest accents is a Swiss German woman speaking French. It’s just a really nice sound.

The Bruce

I was being sarcastic :) Don't get me wrong, the people I've met are exactly like you have described, however when trying to get your ears to tune into Hochdeutsch, then listening to the dialect they speak, it's bloody difficult to understand. The best example was a girl on a swiss train talking non stop on her mobile/cell/handy in what sounded to be a mixture of german/french with a little italian thrown in.

:eek: There really is no accounting for taste. :p

Hey, swiss girls are hot :p