NationStates Jolt Archive

COMMENTARY: More problems with Ritalin. Fortunately, it's only boys. They don't count anyway. :rolleyes:


Panel Advises Disclosure of
Drugs' Psychotic Effects (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/23/health/23fda.html?th&emc=th)


By GARDINER HARRIS
Published: March 23, 2006
GAITHERSBURG, Md., March 22 — Stimulants like Ritalin lead a small number of children to suffer hallucinations that usually feature insects, snakes or worms, according to federal drug officials, and a panel of experts said on Wednesday that physicians and parents needed to be warned of the risk.

The panel members said they hoped the warning would prevent physicians from prescribing a second drug to treat the hallucinations caused by the stimulants, which one expert estimated affect 2 to 5 of every 100 children taking them. Instead, they said, the right thing to do in such cases was to stop prescribing the stimulants.

On Feb. 9, a different advisory committee voted 8 to 7 to recommend that the Food and Drug Administration place its most serious warning label, a so-called black box, on the labels of stimulants to warn that they could have dangerous effects on the heart, particularly in adults. That recommendation grew out of reports that 25 people, mostly children, had died suddenly while taking the drugs.

Since Ritalin was first approved in the 1950's, stimulants to treat attention deficit disorder and hyperactivity have become among the most widely prescribed medicines in the world. In the United States alone, about 2.5 million children and 1.5 million adults take them; as many as 10 percent of boys ages 10 to 12 do

In addition to Ritalin, two other stimulants, Adderall and Concerta, are popular.

The drugs have been studied in hundreds of trials over five decades and have proven to be extremely effective. But they have always been controversial, with some experts saying they are overprescribed. It is a measure of the difficulty of uncovering the physiological effects of medicines that experts are only now grappling with some of the drugs' serious, though rare, physical and mental effects.

Dr. Thomas B. Newman, an epidemiologist at the University of California, San Francisco, who is a member of the pediatric advisory committee, estimated that out of 100 patients treated for a year with stimulants, 2 to 5 will suffer serious psychotic episodes like hallucinations.

"It's a small number, but it's real," said Dr. Robert M. Nelson, an intensive-care physician at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and chairman of the committee.

Dr. Kate Gelperin, an F.D.A. drug-safety specialist, told the committee that the agency had discovered a surprising number of cases in which young children given stimulants suffered hallucinations. Most said that they saw or felt insects, snakes or worms, Dr. Gelperin said.

Dr. Gelperin described the case of a 12-year-old girl who said that insects were crawling under her skin. Another child was found by his parents crawling on the ground and complaining that he was surrounded by cockroaches. In both cases, the hallucinations disappeared after drug therapy was stopped. The boy's doctor persuaded his parents to give him stimulants again, and his hallucinations reappeared.

F.D.A. officials made clear to the advisory panel that they considered the reports of hallucinations a problem that deserved a label warning.

"We were struck by the hallucinations," said Dr. Rosemary Johann-Liang, deputy director of the division of drug-risk evaluation at the F.D.A. "We felt it was a drug effect."

The agency does not have to follow the conclusions of its advisory panels, but it usually does. Dr. Robert Temple, director of the Office of Medical Policy at the agency, said after the meeting that the agency would "turn quite quickly to implementing the recommendations we've gotten."

Dr. Temple added, "The area of uncertainty is what to do about the black-box warning on cardiovascular risks in adults."

After the advisory committee meeting in February, agency officials said they had no intention in the near future of placing such warnings on stimulant labels about their potential heart risks.

Wednesday's panel, made up mostly of experts in pediatric medicine and psychiatry, discussed only the potential risks of the drugs among children, while February's group focused mostly on the risks to adults. The pediatric panel agreed with the earlier group that children who have heart problems should probably not be given stimulants. But most children who die suddenly from heart ailments never knew they were at risk, and most children put on stimulant therapy are not given thorough heart evaluations.

"You can't screen 2.5 million children" with intensive heart evaluation tests, Dr. Nelson said.

You say 'hallucinations' like they're a bad thing.

Keep them on the hallucinations. It might stop them from seeing the real world.

Go ahead and dope up your children! They'll only see snakes and bugs!

Stimulants like Ritalin lead a small number of children to suffer hallucinations
Why don't these two go together?

When I was little, they gave me neuroleptics for hyperactivity and sleep disorders. I'm not a disaster, I dare say.

Why don't these two go together?

When I was little, they gave me neuroleptics for hyperactivity and sleep disorders. I'm not a disaster, I dare say.
Sez who??? :D

Sez who??? :D
Certainly not the snakes I see every night, but that's beside the point.

Certainly not the snakes I see every night, but that's beside the point.
Talking snakes??? :eek:

Talking snakes??? :eek:
I could play along etc, funny jokes, etc.

But: if they gave me neuroleptics and I still can have this conversation, it means that you have no point about Ritalin and psychosis.

Screw Ritalin as a drug to curb behaviour - it's got better uses.

Want a different high? Get a Ritalin capsule, dump the small beads into a bow, crush them and take with water. It'll get you wired. It was different from weed but still fun.

Wait...the snakes weren't real?

Wait...the snakes weren't real?
No, but the worms under your skin were! :eek:

No, but the worms under your skin were! :eek:
I don't remember worms, but I do remember feeling an urge to 'sit up and fly straight'... and who says Ritalin is a bad thing?

I don't remember worms, but I do remember feeling an urge to 'sit up and fly straight'... and who says Ritalin is a bad thing?
Me, for one.

No, but the worms under your skin were! :eek:

You mean Bob and Jack? Yeah, they keep me company at night.

They're good listeners.

Me, for one.
Why?

Me, for one.
<sarcasm>Well... like your opinion matters... </sacarasm>

Well I never had a problem, I'm still on a different version. (I became immune to Ritilain almost all people on long term meds are immune to Ritilian. Nope nothing wrong with me.

<sarcasm>Giant Spider!!! </sacarasm>

I don't remember worms, but I do remember feeling an urge to 'sit up and fly straight'... and who says Ritalin is a bad thing?
Too right Ritalin is good for you. Most effective way to control behaviour problems, other than a proper diet and regular exercise.

Too right Ritalin is good for you. Most effective way to control behaviour problems, other than a proper diet and regular exercise.
I took Ritalin as a street drug, ironically enough and as a lod, I had a proper diet and exercised, and yet had ADD... ooo! Look! A bird!

In Brazil, parents don't use medication regularly to take care of their kids, yet, somehow, they manage to be parents well and their kids manage to develop a nice life, career, etc. Same goes for every other place in the world but the US. Parents that drug kids, unless there's an ACTUAL problem, are either too lazy or too incompetent to do their jobs.

Order of the Serpentine wants you. Ritalin is your passage into the Oasis.

I'm opposed to medicating your kids like you want them to be all set from the gate-seems to me their kids and they got growing they have to do, they're not messed up, thier kids.

But I don't have a psychology background, or brain chemistry background-so really I might just be the equivilent of someone shaking a stick at an airplane as an 'instrument of the devil' or worrying that cameras steal ones soul (which they totally do, but that's another story...)

Thanks for the tip, Maverick.

I could play along etc, funny jokes, etc.

But: if they gave me neuroleptics and I still can have this conversation, it means that you have no point about Ritalin and psychosis.

why do you assume that people suffering from psychosis can't carry on conversations?


it's not true you know, there are varying degrees of psychosis, and most people suffering from it can function almost normally.


on topic, drugs have side effects, that's not new news. While I think Ritalin is over prescribed, that's no reason to ban it or anything, if anything doctors and parents alike need to be better informed about ADD/ADHD and that there are a lot of other disorders that mimic these most of which can be treated without stimulants.

I just feel in general people should stop blaming childrens behavior and/or actions on medication. That's just as bad as saying "My son took zoloft and shot up his school." Get over it people! Although I feel there should be alternatives for certain medications, until we find most of them it's just going to be a choice. Either give the pills to your kid or not. Discipline your children properly when they act out instead of letting them get away with murder and it would cut back on incidents like this.

But my kids *like* snakes and bugs!

Ritalin just made me lose alot of weight...

COMMENTARY: More problems with Ritalin. Fortunately, it's only boys. They don't count anyway. :rolleyes:


Panel Advises Disclosure of
Drugs' Psychotic Effects (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/23/health/23fda.html?th&emc=th)

*snip*

The drugs have been studied in hundreds of trials over five decades and have proven to be extremely effective.

...

Dr. Thomas B. Newman, an epidemiologist at the University of California, San Francisco, who is a member of the pediatric advisory committee, estimated that out of 100 patients treated for a year with stimulants, 2 to 5 will suffer serious psychotic episodes like hallucinations.

"It's a small number, but it's real," said Dr. Robert M. Nelson, an intensive-care physician at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and chairman of the committee.



Did you even read the article or just use it as an excuse for alarmist bullshit???!!

Every drug has side-effects. The article merely says that out of 100 patients treated for a year with stimulants, it is estimated that 2 to 5 will have this negative side effect. Are you familar with the side effects -- such as death -- that can occur from aspirin? We don't abandon proven, effective treatments for everyone who could benefit because they have a side-effect on a small percentage of those treated for an entire year. We just watch for the side-effect and not give the treatment to those who suffer adverse effects.

Treating the recommendation of a label warning for a rare side effect as an argument against use of the drug at all is simply stupid.

that you referring to treating mental illness in children as "doping up your kids" merely shows deliberate ignorance.

Your lack of understanding of ADD/ADHD has been shown time and time again in posts like this. I hope no one you know suffers from this illness and has to suffer the additional torment of your ignorance. I wish this condition on no one, but attitudes such as yours make dealing with it even worse.

BTW, nowhere does the article say that it is only boys that are treated with Ritalin or that suffer this side-effect. You pulled that out of your prejudiced ass.

-snip-
Ahh Cat-Tribe. Ever the defender of the system.

The medicine does mess with you...trust me. Though the abuse of the drug is more widespread then any other.

why do you assume that people suffering from psychosis can't carry on conversations?
I wasn't - I was merely replying to the op's prejudice.
Arguably, I too had a psychotic episode or two - which would mean you're preaching to the choir.

Ahh Cat-Tribe. Ever the defender of the system.

Yes. I am so ashamed to defend the practice of medicine. :rolleyes: :headbang:

EDIT: And you'll find I'm no "defender of the system" -- except to the extent you think anything other than your opinion is "the system."

Yes. I am so ashamed to defend the practice of medicine. :rolleyes: :headbang:
No, you are not defending the practice of medicine. You are defending the practice of drugging children, mostly boys, to the point of emotional deadness because some teacher doesn’t know how to deal with them, witch is there job btw.

They wanted to put my little brother on the stuff when he was in second grade. My mother refused to do so, thank God, but went ahead and had him checked out by a psychiatrist not associated with the school system. Turns out he’s not ADD. In fact, he’s a certifiable genius, and was (still is at 6th) bored. Yet, every year until this last one, some teacher or principle has insisted that he was ADD. The school system just can’t deal with someone who thinks outside the box, I suppose. They’d rather drug them.

I have a few friends who were on the stuff when they were younger. They all swear it was unnecessary and that they hated it.
Why is this all of a sudden just a problem now. Let kids be kids. Don’t drug them because they refuse to conform to your overly-stuffy education system. It’s just elementary most of the time, anyway.

No, you are not defending the practice of medicine. You are defending the practice of drugging children, mostly boys, to the point of emotional deadness because some teacher doesn’t know how to deal with them, witch is there job btw.

They wanted to put my little brother on the stuff when he was in second grade. My mother refused to do so, thank God, but went ahead and had him checked out by a psychiatrist not associated with the school system. Turns out he’s not ADD. In fact, he’s a certifiable genius, and was (still is at 6th) bored. Yet, every year until this last one, some teacher or principle has insisted that he was ADD. The school system just can’t deal with someone who thinks outside the box, I suppose. They’d rather drug them.

I have a few friends who were on the stuff when they were younger. They all swear it was unnecessary and that they hated it.
Why is this all of a sudden just a problem now. Let kids be kids. Don’t drug them because they refuse to conform to your overly-stuffy education system. It’s just elementary most of the time, anyway.

Ahh, the wonder of anecdotal evidence. Beats medical science everytime.

Just because your younger brother may not have ADD doesn't mean that no one does. Luckily teachers and principals don't prescribe ADD medication -- doctors do.

Almost every study that has been done on the subject has failed to show that ADD medication is generally overprescribed. To the contrary, it is often underprescribed.

And the treatment of ADD is not the "practice of drugging children, mostly boys, to the point of emotional deadness." ADD medication tends to be stimulants. In a non-ADD child, this would not cause calmness or deadness, but actually cause hyperactivity. There is a difference in the ADD brain that makes the stimulants calming to those with ADD.

Learn a little about the subject. It may burst your cocoon.


The Science of AD/HD (http://www.help4adhd.org/en/about/science)

Alot of you talk about how kids shouldn't be drugged up, they should just stick it out, etc.

I'd personally like to know what kinds of backgrounds you have.

I have real depression. I've had it as long as I can remember, but for arguments sake, lets say it dates back to late elementary school.

I've never done anything real about it. I've gone to a few therapists, mostly school ones. However, there's always been something in me wanting to keep it a secret. I've always tried to fool therapists, etc, and mostly succeeded.

They thought I had ADD. They sent me to a therapist, and I went to him a few times. I made him think I didn't have ADD, so nothing was done. I've done everything I could to fix it, and its pretty much worked.

What I'm trying to say is, we need to help these kids when we can. I think my depression, and hence lack of interest in most things made people think I have ADD. Instead of dismissing people who need help, we really need to see what we can do for them.

Alot of you talk about how kids shouldn't be drugged up, they should just stick it out, etc.

I'd personally like to know what kinds of backgrounds you have.

I have real depression. I've had it as long as I can remember, but for arguments sake, lets say it dates back to late elementary school.

I've never done anything real about it. I've gone to a few therapists, mostly school ones. However, there's always been something in me wanting to keep it a secret. I've always tried to fool therapists, etc, and mostly succeeded.

They thought I had ADD. They sent me to a therapist, and I went to him a few times. I made him think I didn't have ADD, so nothing was done. I've done everything I could to fix it, and its pretty much worked.

What I'm trying to say is, we need to help these kids when we can. I think my depression, and hence lack of interest in most things made people think I have ADD. Instead of dismissing people who need help, we really need to see what we can do for them.

Amen.

Mental illness is a real problem. And not just for adults.

Ahh, the wonder of anecdotal evidence. Beats medical science everytime.

Just because your younger brother may not have ADD doesn't mean that no one does. Luckily teachers and principals don't prescribe ADD medication -- doctors do.
I never claimed that it didn't existbut if it is really so awful, how ever did we survive before the invention of Ritalin?
As to the teachers not proscribing it bit, my mother has been told point blank by educators that my brother should be put on Ritalin, more than once by multiple people.
Almost every study that has been done on the subject has failed to show that ADD medication is generally overprescribed. To the contrary, it is often underprescribed.
How could it possibly be under-prescribed? So many kids are on that junk. Maybe it isn’t a disorder, maybe it’s just something that a lot of kids go through.
And the treatment of ADD is not the "practice of drugging children, mostly boys, to the point of emotional deadness." ADD medication tends to be stimulants. In a non-ADD child, this would not cause calmness or deadness, but actually cause hyperactivity. There is a difference in the ADD brain that makes the stimulants calming to those with ADD.
I know all this, and what I’m saying is that a child that is perfectly happy being hyper doesn’t deserve to be artificially calmed down.

I'd personally like to know what kinds of backgrounds you have.


Well, I stated up front that I don't have a background in psychology and brain chemestry and thus gave the caveat that I could be doing the equivilant of shaking a stick at an airplane as a tool of the devil or claiming that cameras steal your soul (which, again, they totally do-but that's another thing all together). I'll admit when I have an unfounded opinion, it helps avoid Cat-Tribe induced smackdowns...(also, I don't have kids nor offer advice to my friends and family who do)

I never claimed that it didn't existbut if it is really so awful, how ever did we survive before the invention of Ritalin?.

Gee, how did we ever survive before the polio vaccine?

As to the teachers not proscribing it bit, my mother has been told point blank by educators that my brother should be put on Ritalin, more than once by multiple people.

And your brother isn't on it because those educators cannot prescribe it. Thank you for proving my point.

How could it possibly be under-prescribed? So many kids are on that junk. Maybe it isn’t a disorder, maybe it’s just something that a lot of kids go through.

As an adult with ADD, I recommend you read up on the Science of ADD link that I shared. The medical evidence is very clear. It is a disorder.

I know all this, and what I’m saying is that a child that is perfectly happy being hyper doesn’t deserve to be artificially calmed down.

If you knew all this, why did you imply something different?

And what about those of us that do better on medication?

Gee, how did we ever survive before the polio vaccine?
There's a difference. Polio was a big problem. There's no evidence that ADD ever was.
And what about those of us that do better on medication?
Then you have every right to take the medication, or anything else you want. I really don’t care. It’s when you start forcing people who aren’t happy on the medication to take it that I have an issue with.

There's a difference. Polio was a big problem. There's no evidence that ADD ever was.

Bullshit. Although you can glibly deny it because you don't have ADD, it is a problem and its existence and sometimes devastating effects are extremely well documented. You are just ignoring the evidence.

Then you have every right to take the medication, or anything else you want. I really don’t care. It’s when you start forcing people who aren’t happy on the medication to take it that I have an issue with.

And what evidence do you have that there are significant number of people "who aren't happy on the medication" but are forced to take it?

How are they forced to take the medication?

Bullshit. Although you can glibly deny it because you don't have ADD, it is a problem and its existence and sometimes devastating effects are extremely well documented. You are just ignoring the evidence.
Too bad those “devastating effects” didn’t emerge until after the disorder was identified. I see nothing in the first half of the twentieth century that suggests children were unduly hindered by some phantom illness.
And what evidence do you have that there are significant number of people "who aren't happy on the medication" but are forced to take it?
Everyone I know who was on it has nothing positive to say about it. Yeah, they probably had the "dissorder" but maybe it didn't need treatment. After all, they grew out of it.
How are they forced to take the medication?
A medical establishment that has nothing to lose by prescribing more unnecessary medication and an education system that doesn’t want to deal with the fact that they are dealing with little kids not little adults.

Well, I agree with Undelia on this one.

Too bad those “devastating effects” didn’t emerge until after the disorder was identified. I see nothing in the first half of the twentieth century that suggests children were unduly hindered by some phantom illness.

Just because you're unaware of it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Just because you're unaware of it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
If it was really so bad you think those that argue for it would cite what a terrible plague it was before it was discovered.

If it was really so bad you think those that argue for it would cite what a terrible plague it was before it was discovered.

Your deliberate ignorance does not constitute an absence of evidence.

The Science of AD/HD (http://www.help4adhd.org/en/about/science)

BTW, ADD has been recognized as a clinical disorder since at least 1902.

Oh, that Cat-Tribe! I'll forever be upstaged by his better writing.

*sniffs*

Your deliberate ignorance does not constitute an absence of evidence.

The Science of AD/HD (http://www.help4adhd.org/en/about/science)

BTW, ADD has been recognized as a clinical disorder since at least 1902.
Your link is filled with information from groups that have everything to gain from over treatment of ADD, while those who dare to simply question the establishment have nothing to gain from such questioning except perhaps a youth that hasn’t had all the freethinking crushed out of them.

If it was really so bad you think those that argue for it would cite what a terrible plague it was before it was discovered.

How?

All that can be cited definitively is that before ADD/ADHD was a recognized disorder, some kids had trouble focusing, behaved in inappropriately impulsive ways, and so forth and so on. There is no question but that this is true.

I was on Ritalin for about six years, and I hated it. It was later determined that I almost certainly hadn't had ADD. Ritalin was worse than useless for me, but I don't for one minute think that there aren't lots of people out there with ADD whom Ritalin and similar drugs help. Arguing against any drug on the basis of it not being an appropriate treatment for any given person is just silly. I mean, chemotherapy would cause me nothing but problems, but I have the distinct impression it's helpful for people who have cancer.

It is unfortunate that many people jump to the conclusion that any child who is disruptive, distractible, or even just kind of strange must have some sort of mental disorder - but to extrapolate from this that no children have mental disorders or can be helped by medication is not only fallacious but cruel. Ritalin really does help many people. Why on earth shouldn't they be given it?

Too bad those “devastating effects” didn’t emerge until after the disorder was identified. I see nothing in the first half of the twentieth century that suggests children were unduly hindered by some phantom illness.

Too bad for you that ADD was a diagnosed disorder in 1902. You simply don't know about the truth.

And cancer existed before it was diagnosed as cancer.

Everyone I know who was on it has nothing positive to say about it. Yeah, they probably had the "dissorder" but maybe it didn't need treatment. After all, they grew out of it.

Again, you offer no evidence of individuals being "forced" to take the medication.

And, as of now, your statement about no one on ADD medication saying anything positive about it is not true. I am on ADD medication. I am much better off for it.

You can get over all kinds of illness that we nonetheless feel worthwhile to treat while you are suffering from them. Would you refuse to treat a toothache in a tooth that will eventually fall out?

A medical establishment that has nothing to lose by prescribing more unnecessary medication and an education system that doesn’t want to deal with the fact that they are dealing with little kids not little adults.

Meh. Sheer paranoia fueled by ignorance.

Because 8 year olds are better equipped to make medical decisions than doctors working with teachers?

How?

All that can be cited definitively is that before ADD/ADHD was a recognized disorder, some kids had trouble focusing, behaved in inappropriately impulsive ways, and so forth and so on. There is no question but that this is true.

I was on Ritalin for about six years, and I hated it. It was later determined that I almost certainly hadn't had ADD. Ritalin was worse than useless for me, but I don't for one minute think that there aren't lots of people out there with ADD whom Ritalin and similar drugs help. Arguing against any drug on the basis of it not being an appropriate treatment for any given person is just silly. I mean, chemotherapy would cause me nothing but problems, but I have the distinct impression it's helpful for people who have cancer.

It is unfortunate that many people jump to the conclusion that any child who is disruptive, distractible, or even just kind of strange must have some sort of mental disorder - but to extrapolate from this that no children have mental disorders or can be helped by medication is not only fallacious but cruel. Ritalin really does help many people. Why on earth shouldn't they be given it?
That’s just the thing, though. I recognize that it exists, but is perhaps over-treated. For instance, I have not said anything against ADHD, which is a serrious problem, only ADD.

I also believe that having a short attention span is part of being a kid. Lord knows I did, but I turned out fine.

As for the impulsiveness, almost anybody under about age twenty-one is impulsive, comes with the territory of not yet having a fully developed pre-frontal lobe.

Your link is filled with information from groups that have everything to gain from over treatment of ADD, while those who dare to simply question the establishment have nothing to gain from such questioning except perhaps a youth that hasn’t had all the freethinking crushed out of them.

Ahh.

The US Surgeon General, the American Medical Association, the National Institutes of Health, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, the Mayo Clinic, and an international consensus of over 100 scientists are all perpetuating a conspiracy.

In fact, the absence of any scientific evidence to support your views is evidence of the conspiracy.

And this is based on the fact that your brother wasn't treated for ADD.

You seem to be under the misunderstanding that ignorance is equal to freethinking.

Too bad for you that ADD was a diagnosed disorder in 1902. You simply don't know about the truth.

And cancer existed before it was diagnosed as cancer.
Yes, but we can look back at history and say, "Hmm, that famous guy probably had caner." Not so with ADD.
And, as of now, your statement about no one on ADD medication saying anything positive about it is not true. I am on ADD medication. I am much better off for it.
Noted, though you are an adult with ADD, not a child.
You can get over all kinds of illness that we nonetheless feel worthwhile to treat while you are suffering from them. Would you refuse to treat a toothache in a tooth that will eventually fall out?
If the medication would change my personality, yes I would refuse it.
Meh. Sheer paranoia fueled by ignorance.

Because 8 year olds are better equipped to make medical decisions than doctors working with teachers?
Never said that. However, my experience with doctors isn’t great either, and I have an easy time believing they can be just as incompetent as an eight year old.

In fact, the absence of any scientific evidence to support your views is evidence of the conspiracy.

There couldn’t possibly be any scientific evidence to support my opinion. I recognize that it exists. My opinion is that it need not be treated as frequently as it is part of a child’s personality. Perhaps my definition for what is acceptable differs from yours. As far as I know, there is no scientific standard for such things.
You seem to be under the misunderstanding that ignorance is equal to freethinking.
You seem to be under the misunderstanding that not accepting conventional wisdom is ignorance.

That’s just the thing, though. I recognize that it exists, but is perhaps over-treated. For instance, I have not said anything against ADHD, which is a serrious problem, only ADD.

I also believe that having a short attention span is part of being a kid. Lord knows I did, but I turned out fine.

As for the impulsiveness, almost anybody under about age twenty-one is impulsive, comes with the territory of not yet having a fully developed pre-frontal lobe.

Excuse me?

You believe ADHD is a serious problem, but ADD is not.

Do you understand the official definition of AD/HD?

http://www.psychologynet.org/add.html

ADD, ADHD, AD/HD are all names for the same disorder.

The difference is between:
Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder, Combined Type: if both Criteria A1 and A2 are met for the past 6 months

Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder, Predominantly Inattentive Type: if Criterion A1 is met but Criterion A2 is not met for the past 6 months

Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder, Predominantly Hyperactive-Impulsive Type: if Criterion A2 is met but Criterion A1 is not met for the past 6 months

Excuse me?

You believe ADHD is a serious problem, but ADD is not.

Do you understand the official definition of AD/HD?

http://www.psychologynet.org/add.html

ADD, ADHD, AD/HD are all names for the same disorder.
Hah.
According to that link, nearly every kid I've ever known in my whole life has ADD.
The things listed there are just what kids do. They forget things, don't do what they're supposed to, don't pay attention, aren't interested in metal activity. I don't want to meat the kid who isn't that way

Hah.
According to that link, nearly every kid I've ever known in my whole life has ADD.
The things listed there are just what kids do. They forget things, don't do what they're supposed to, don't pay attention, aren't interested in metal activity. I don't want to meat the kid who isn't that way

Again, you'll have to explain how you believe ADHD is a serious problem but ADD is not when they are the same damn thing!

As for the criteria, read a little more carefully. Properly applied, they specifically exclude a "normal child." This is why your brother was not diagnosed as having ADD.

First, the individual must suffer from 6 or more of the A1 or A2 criteria for at least 6 months to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with developmental level. To be clear, this means each of the symptoms must be to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with development level.

Second, the A1 and A2 criteria are qualified by the term "often" to further require that the behavior be pervasive, rather than occasional.

Third, impairment from these symptoms must be present in two or more settings (e.g., at school [or work] and at home).

Fourth, there must be clear evidence of clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.

Second, the A1 and A2 criteria are qualified by the term "often" to further require that the behavior be pervasive, rather than occasional.
In my experiance, kids act that way all the time.
Third, impairment from these symptoms must be present in two or more settings (e.g., at school [or work] and at home).
If schools didn't try to treat kids like little adults, there wouldn't be an impairment. The promlem lies with the system, not the individual child.
Fourth, there must be clear evidence of clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.
Wich a teachers referral is probably enough to provide in most cases.
I really can’t believe that they are doing all this research on every single kid brought in for treatment.

That’s just the thing, though. I recognize that it exists, but is perhaps over-treated. For instance, I have not said anything against ADHD, which is a serrious problem, only ADD.

I'm a wee bit confused. The terms "ADD" and "ADHD" are used basically interchangeably, so I've never heard anyone claim one to be more serious than the other. Could you explain?

I also believe that having a short attention span is part of being a kid. Lord knows I did, but I turned out fine.

Of course it is, but it's a matter of degree. Having a short attention span is one thing; being completely unable to pay attention to anything for more than a minute is another.

As for the impulsiveness, almost anybody under about age twenty-one is impulsive, comes with the territory of not yet having a fully developed pre-frontal lobe.

Well, that's why I said "inappropriately impulsive." Once again, it's a question of degree. Pretty much all kids are impulsive, but most think a little before making decisions like, say, running away from mommy and hiding behind a dumpster in a strange neighborhood.

I don't deny that there are some people in the world who are all too keen to give Ritalin to every kid who wiggles too much, but some people are also all too keen to give Prozac to anyone who frowns too much. Ritalin and Prozac have both been (justifiably) touted as "wonder drugs," and that leads people who don't know better to the misapprehension that they'll help everyone. Luckily, I think this leads to a lot more over-recommendation than over-prescription, since doctors don't hang their hopes on a wonder drug quite the same way the general public does.

I'm a wee bit confused. The terms "ADD" and "ADHD" are used basically interchangeably, so I've never heard anyone claim one to be more serious than the other. Could you explain?
ADHD is more serrious.
Of course it is, but it's a matter of degree. Having a short attention span is one thing; being completely unable to pay attention to anything for more than a minute is another.

Of course.
I don't deny that there are some people in the world who are all too keen to give Ritalin to every kid who wiggles too much, but some people are also all too keen to give Prozac to anyone who frowns too much. Ritalin and Prozac have both been (justifiably) touted as "wonder drugs," and that leads people who don't know better to the misapprehension that they'll help everyone. Luckily, I think this leads to a lot more over-recommendation than over-prescription, since doctors don't hang their hopes on a wonder drug quite the same way the general public does.
One can only hope.

ADHD is more serrious.

Of course.

One can only hope.

Again, you'll have to explain how you believe ADHD is a serious problem but ADD is not when they are the same damn thing!

Again, you'll have to explain how you believe ADHD is a serious problem but ADD is not when they are the same damn thing!
It's just my way of saying that some people have the disorder, but not everyone needs or even should have it treated.

Too bad those “devastating effects” didn’t emerge until after the disorder was identified. I see nothing in the first half of the twentieth century that suggests children were unduly hindered by some phantom illness.

Everyone I know who was on it has nothing positive to say about it. Yeah, they probably had the "dissorder" but maybe it didn't need treatment. After all, they grew out of it.

A medical establishment that has nothing to lose by prescribing more unnecessary medication and an education system that doesn’t want to deal with the fact that they are dealing with little kids not little adults.


THIS IS BULLSHIT. OK your first point I can answer, Kids did used to have behavioral problems, and do you know what they used to do with them? huh? Because I do, they used to put them in a nice place called an asylum. I know this because my parents ran a residential home for elderly people, many of them had been in long term mental institutions, and at least 3 of the ones that I know of personally were put into the asylum by their families because they 'couldn't manage them' or they 'were difficult'. There were also two woman who had been put into the asylum because they got PREGNANT and were not married, one of them was actually made pregnant by her fu** wit of a father and the family still put her into the local mental hospital. THey had all been in for years and years (40, 50 or 60), and let me tell you, being in an old style mental insititution makes you mental, they were not mental to start with, they just didn't fit in. I know this is true. I also know that by talking to older people that kids who didn't behave 'normally or properly' got sent to reform school and borstal, basically prisons for kids. SO thats where all the kids with ADHD were in the past. Unless they were real lucky and had parents and teachers who cared enough to try to help them.

And to Eutrusca , the OP. My son has ADHD, I am not a bad parent, I am a bloody good one thank you very much. I love my son with all my soul and being, I am HUGELY and MONUMENTALLY proud of him. He takes Ritalin, he is not 'doped up' he doesn't see bugs and snakes, and he is a wonderful young man. I challenge anybody to produce a better person than my son. He is tall, strong, bright, fit, (he plays football, rugby and cricket for his school, he plays football for the county, he is the best cross country runner in this part of the whole country and was invited by ADDIDAS to go to a training camp last year, he plays badminton and rides miles on his mountain bike for fun) BUT if he didn't take Ritalin, he would not even be in mainstream school, because when he was 4 they were going to exclude him because of his behaviour. I was so worried and scared and confused, because my other children were not like him, he was very much loved and wanted, not ignored and neglected. I played with him and stimulated his mind, he could not sit still, could not concentrate and he was frustrated beyond words. (he used to bite himself because he couldn't understand why he was 'naughty') I took him to Drs and eventually we got an appt in the Maudlsey Hospital in London. I took him up there and after two whole days of testing and studying him, he was diagnosed with ADHD and PDD (pervasive developmental disorder within the autistic spectrum) He was put onto Ritalin and his life changed, he stopped being the naughty kid that got in trouble everyday at school, getting kept in every playtime, sent out from lessons, prevented from doing PE (games) being pointed at by kids and parents (this was so bad that he had to start and finish school at a different time to the others because of the number of comments that were made about him by parents, he was 4 years old) His life was a f***in misery and it changed it into a good one, HOW DARE ANYBODY WHO DOESNT KNOW SHIT ABOUT IT MAKE SOME IGNORANT COMMENT. My son is a fantastic human being, nobody would bat an eyelid if he was diabetic and I gave him insulin injections every day, but people who have been lucky enough to have not had themselves, or had a child with ADHD need to STFU. He is bright, because he can concentrate, he is fit because he was allowed to do sport rather than be excluded because he messed about, he is happy. MY SON IS HAPPY because he is able to be like every other 13 year old boy, he is naughty, cheeky, loud, kind, wonderful and the best person I know. I am more outraged than I can convey by the total ignorant stupidity shown by some people on this stupid bloody thread that I can barely contain myself. How dare anyone who knows nothing about me or my wonderful beautiful boy make assumptions because of their own ignorance.
I cried myslef to sleep over morons who know nothing making comments about my boy too many times to let this go. I dont mean to offend, but if you dont know what you are talking about, shut up. :headbang:

-snip-
Meh.
You’re in England. I’m sure with socialized healthcare and such, no one has anything to gain from over-prescribing medication. You’re country probably doesn’t have a problem with it like the US.

And as I said, some kids need it, just not as many as they think.

It's just my way of saying that some people have the disorder, but not everyone needs or even should have it treated.

So its an imaginary line you drew in your own head, has nothing to do with actual diagnoses or conditions, and means fuck all.

Meh.
You’re in England. I’m sure with socialized healthcare and such, no one has anything to gain from over-prescribing medication. You’re country probably doesn’t have a problem with it like the US.

And as I said, some kids need it, just not as many as they think.

Gee too bad you didn't actual listen to what Carlsbrooke had to say.

Again, you have no evidence of overprescription. Just your paranoid ignorance.

You've failed to explain how the National Institutes of Health or the Centers for Disease Control, for example, have something to gain from over-prescribing medicine.

There is nothing noble or freethinking about a stubborn refusal to consider facts.

Gee too bad you didn't actual listen to what Carlsbrooke had to say.

Again, you have no evidence of overprescription. Just your paranoid ignorance.

You've failed to explain how the National Institutes of Health or the Centers for Disease Control, for example, have something to gain from over-prescribing medicine.

There is nothing noble or freethinking about a stubborn refusal to consider facts.


Thank you Cat Tribe :D

I have been very cross about this all day, but have calmed down now. I realise that the press has printed many stories about ADHD and ADD and the medication issue. I also know that it works for my son, and that is what matters to me. I would like people who have any doubts about medication consider for a moment what life would be like for my son without it, and then decide what they would do if they were in my shoes. It's almost the same as me saying I don't want chemotherapy because my hair will fall out and I will get sick, and not thinking about the benefits that I would be getting by taking it. Do people not think that I considered very carefully before I gave my darling son a class A drug? I am not some kind of moronic monster. I know that I am doing the right thing by him, he is the most important person in this. I am giving him the best shot at life by allowing him to be like everyone else, and be different in the way all children should be, rather than excluded, naughty, unhappy and disliked.

You've failed to explain how the National Institutes of Health or the Centers for Disease Control, for example, have something to gain from over-prescribing medicine.
They are doctors. They are part of the system.
There is nothing noble or freethinking about a stubborn refusal to consider facts.
I know the facts. I have simply decided that it is improper to alter someone’s personality against their will.

So its an imaginary line you drew in your own head, has nothing to do with actual diagnoses or conditions, and means fuck all.
Precisely

I know the facts. I have simply decided that it is improper to alter someone’s personality against their will.

My sons personality is not altered, the ritalin does not make him a different person, it allows him to be the person that he is. I don't want to change him to suit me, I want him to feel happy in his own skin and he does. Your attitude is shaped by your ill informed opinions.

Yes. I am so ashamed to defend the practice of medicine. :rolleyes: :headbang:

EDIT: And you'll find I'm no "defender of the system" -- except to the extent you think anything other than your opinion is "the system."
Pushing drugs is not "the practice of medicine," it is pure laziness on the part of doctors and parents.

Pushing drugs is not "the practice of medicine," it is pure laziness on the part of doctors and parents.

I see you haven't taken the opportunity to learn more about ADHD than in your other thread, in which you professed your ignorance.

I have been very cross about this all day, but have calmed down now. I realise that the press has printed many stories about ADHD and ADD and the medication issue. I also know that it works for my son, and that is what matters to me. I would like people who have any doubts about medication consider for a moment what life would be like for my son without it, and then decide what they would do if they were in my shoes. It's almost the same as me saying I don't want chemotherapy because my hair will fall out and I will get sick, and not thinking about the benefits that I would be getting by taking it. Do people not think that I considered very carefully before I gave my darling son a class A drug? I am not some kind of moronic monster. I know that I am doing the right thing by him, he is the most important person in this. I am giving him the best shot at life by allowing him to be like everyone else, and be different in the way all children should be, rather than excluded, naughty, unhappy and disliked.
There are cases where Ritalin is perhaps the only option, but based on what I have read and from personal experience, it is over-prescribed. I have seen it prescribed for boys who were being nothing more than little boys, including one of my own grandsons. In his case, he's an active little boy and nothing more, yet his teachers suggested Ritalin to "calm him down." Fortunately, his mother has a bit more sense than that. She has worked with him until now he can exercise sufficient self-discipline to do what is required in class. Another part of the problem turned out to be that he was simply smarter than the average and was bored to tears by the lack of challenge in school.

If the only option for your son was to put him on Ritalin and it worked, then good on both of you, but I suspect your case was the exception to the norm.

You've failed to explain how the National Institutes of Health or the Centers for Disease Control, for example, have something to gain from over-prescribing medicine.

gee, i don't know, share of the profits?


look, america is relying too much on drugs and artificial things to survive. some kids do have this problem, and nothing says they shouldn't receive treatment. however, many teachers/bad parents believe that ritalin can stop their kids from running around like a normal 4 year old.

people think that ritalin will solve their parenting problems. if they hadn't been a bad parent in the first place, maybe 50% of ritalin prescriptions would not be needed. you can't control your kid. do you know whose fault that is?

YOURS

Pushing drugs is not "the practice of medicine," it is pure laziness on the part of doctors and parents.

Playing such silly rhetorical games ought to be beneath you.

Doctors don't simply "push drugs." They practice medicine. When the appropriate treatment for a diagnosis is medication, they prescribe it.

Your own article said that stimulant medications have proven to be safe and effective treatments in copious studies over the last four decades.

You really ought to do something about your willful ignorance on the subject of AD/HD and its treatment.

gee, i don't know, share of the profits?

Please show how the CDC and the NIH (not to mention the other organizations) profit from the prescription of ADD medication. Otherwise you are purely blowing smoke.


look, america is relying too much on drugs and artificial things to survive. some kids do have this problem, and nothing says they shouldn't receive treatment. however, many teachers/bad parents believe that ritalin can stop their kids from running around like a normal 4 year old.

people think that ritalin will solve their parenting problems. if they hadn't been a bad parent in the first place, maybe 50% of ritalin prescriptions would not be needed. you can't control your kid. do you know whose fault that is?

YOURS

Again, you are steeped in the common mythology about Ritalin but have no clue as to how it works or why. If you give Ritalin to a normal 4 year old boy, it will not change his personality or dope him down. To the contrary, it will make him more hyper. ADD medications are only calming for those with ADD.

As for you out-of-your-ass stastics on bad parenting, this is entirely without basis and contrary to respected research on the subject. ADD is not caused by bad parenting.

Instead of trying to be clever, perhaps you should take this opportunity to learn about AD/HD and its treatments.

They are doctors. They are part of the system.

OKkkkkkay then. All scienists are biased in favor of "the system" of overprescription of medicine to treat AD/HD. Thus the absence of any evidence of such overprescription may be said to be evidence of the vastness of the global medical conspiracy.

I know the facts. I have simply decided that it is improper to alter someone’s personality against their will.

You quite clear don't know the facts.

OR you don't understand them. You for example admit to drawing an imaginary line between ADD and ADHD, calling one serious and the other not-- when they are the same thing.

You've not shown that AD/HD medication alters one's personality.

You've not shown that people are forced to take AD/HD medication against their will.

You have paranoid delusions that you mistake for freethinking.

You have simply decided based on your own lack of information that kids should be denied helpful medical treatment because you distrust all scientists and doctors.

There are cases where Ritalin is perhaps the only option, but based on what I have read and from personal experience, it is over-prescribed. .

I'd love to see the evidence you claim to have read that showed that Ritalin is over-prescribed. I know of no reputable study that has reached that conclusion. I am aware of several that have reached the opposite conclusion.

I have seen it prescribed for boys who were being nothing more than little boys, including one of my own grandsons. In his case, he's an active little boy and nothing more, yet his teachers suggested Ritalin to "calm him down." Fortunately, his mother has a bit more sense than that. She has worked with him until now he can exercise sufficient self-discipline to do what is required in class. Another part of the problem turned out to be that he was simply smarter than the average and was bored to tears by the lack of challenge in school.

Awww. What a nice little anecdote? What did it prove? Fuck all. Was Ritalin ever prescribed to the child. No. It was merely suggested. We have no idea if the child would benefit from Ritalin or not. All we know is that with extra discipline he can behave normally.


If the only option for your son was to put him on Ritalin and it worked, then good on both of you, but I suspect your case was the exception to the norm.

As your own article stated, Carisbrooke's experience is the norm.

BTW, Ritalin need not be the "only option." It can merely be the best option.

It seems to me that mis-behaving children are not the result of chemical imbalances, but of piss-poor parenting. Maybe if people grew the hell up themselves, and take responsibility for their kids, before having children, instead of depending on drugs and/or tv/internet to be their babysitters, we wouldn't have this problem in the first place.

It seems to me that mis-behaving children are not the result of chemical imbalances, but of piss-poor parenting. Maybe if people grew the hell up themselves, and take responsibility for their kids, before having children, instead of depending on drugs and/or tv/internet to be their babysitters, we wouldn't have this problem in the first place.

And maybe if people recognized that mental disorders are no more anyone's "fault" than any other disorder or disease, people with mental disorders and their families wouldn't have to listen to this sort of stupid, offensive nonsense so often, and our lives might be a little less stressful.

It seems to me that mis-behaving children are not the result of chemical imbalances, but of piss-poor parenting. Maybe if people grew the hell up themselves, and take responsibility for their kids, before having children, instead of depending on drugs and/or tv/internet to be their babysitters, we wouldn't have this problem in the first place.

And maybe cancer is a form of character flaw. If people really took care of themselves, straightened up and flew right, we wouldn't have this problem in the first place.

:headbang:

And maybe if people recognized that mental disorders are no more anyone's "fault" than any other disorder or disease, people with mental disorders and their families wouldn't have to listen to this sort of stupid, offensive nonsense so often, and our lives might be a little less stressful.

Amen.

And maybe if people recognized that mental disorders are no more anyone's "fault" than any other disorder or disease, people with mental disorders and their families wouldn't have to listen to this sort of stupid, offensive nonsense so often, and our lives might be a little less stressful.

And maybe if a childs instinct to explore their boudaries wasn't considered a "disorder" but was considered a natural part of growing up, they wouldn't "need" chemical babysitters.

And maybe if a childs instinct to explore their boudaries wasn't considered a "disorder" but was considered a natural part of growing up, they wouldn't "need" chemical babysitters.

Gee. You managed to pack so much ignorance into that little sentence.

A child's natural instinct to explore their boundaries is not considered a disorder.

Treatment for AD/HD is not a "chemical babysitter."

Gee. You managed to pack so much ignorance into that little sentence.

A child's natural instinct to explore their boundaries is not considered a disorder.

Treatment for AD/HD is not a "chemical babysitter."

Perhaps I am ignorant.

Lets look at this:
Attention Deficit: Isn't this just a fancy name for short attention span? Inevitable in a modern society that is over-influenced by pop-culture that requires everyone to be always up on the latest trends.

Hyperactive Disorder Children are naturally active and curious, usually more so than adults. Sit them in front of a screen and give them no outlet for their energy, and over-stimulate them with that very same screen, and this, to becomes inevitable.

Then when you diagnose AD/HD, Instead of giving them something else to do, some activity other than becoming an electronic zombie, just dope them up, making them drugged-out zombies (oh its OK, The Doctor perscribed this drug. Its OK).

Back to my ignorance, I am blissfully ignorant of ritalin et al, and my children will remain so as well.

Perhaps I am ignorant.

Lets look at this:
Attention Deficit: Isn't this just a fancy name for short attention span? Inevitable in a modern society that is over-influenced by pop-culture that requires everyone to be always up on the latest trends.

Hyperactive Disorder Children are naturally active and curious, usually more so than adults. Sit them in front of a screen and give them no outlet for their energy, and over-stimulate them with that very same screen, and this, to becomes inevitable.

Then when you diagnose AD/HD, Instead of giving them something else to do, some activity other than becoming an electronic zombie, just dope them up, making them drugged-out zombies (oh its OK, The Doctor perscribed this drug. Its OK).

Back to my ignorance, I am blissfully ignorant of ritalin et al, and my children will remain so as well.

Thank you for recognizing your total ignorance of what AD/HD is, what are its causes and effects, and its treatments.

Ample links and information has been provided in this thread, but you choose to deliberately ignore it and maintain your ignorance.

What a fine example you are setting for your children.

Thank you for recognizing your total ignorance of what AD/HD is, what are its causes and effects, and its treatments.

Ample links and information has been provided in this thread, but you choose to deliberately ignore it and maintain your ignorance.

What a fine example you are setting for your children.

Very well, I will investigate the links provided, and immediately discount any one that has a vested interest in selling drugs to me, or in controlling the minds of my future children.

And BTW at least I am setting an example for my children, which is more than can be said for most.

Interesting, in one corner you have Ritalin and in the other corner you have good old fashioned exercise and discipline.

How do I know this? I used to baby sit my bosses son, who was 'diagnosed' with ADD (after I stopped baby sitting him, I found that out a few months later); he was hyper, I, along with his mother, assumed he was just a highly spirited kid.

Each day I used to take him and her sister for walks to the shops, let him have a look at the computer games shop and the sister to have a look at cabbage patch dolls. Other days we would go to the park, he would run around all hyper like kids do, playing with a soccer or rugby ball.

Couple that with a strong discipline - no spacking, just, when he did something wrong, looked straight at him and I told him he was *VERY* naughty, and he was going to miss out on pudding. He *knew* he did wrong, and felt ashamed.

After baby sitting him and her sister for 4-5months, my boss noticed that her son was well behaved.

So yes, The Cat-Tribe, he didn't need Ritalin, he needed a person with a strong arm to lay down the law, and let him know what is acceptable and what isn't.

Interesting how the majority of personal anecdotes are at odds with the “scientific” evidence.

Interesting, in one corner you have Ritalin and in the other corner you have good old fashioned exercise and discipline.

How do I know this? I used to baby sit my bosses son, who was 'diagnosed' with ADD (after I stopped baby sitting him, I found that out a few months later); he was hyper, I, along with his mother, assumed he was just a highly spirited kid.

Each day I used to take him and her sister for walks to the shops, let him have a look at the computer games shop and the sister to have a look at cabbage patch dolls. Other days we would go to the park, he would run around all hyper like kids do, playing with a soccer or rugby ball.

Couple that with a strong discipline - no spacking, just, when he did something wrong, looked straight at him and I told him he was *VERY* naughty, and he was going to miss out on pudding. He *knew* he did wrong, and felt ashamed.

After baby sitting him and her sister for 4-5months, my boss noticed that her son was well behaved.

So yes, The Cat-Tribe, he didn't need Ritalin, he needed a person with a strong arm to lay down the law, and let him know what is acceptable and what isn't.


Nice anecdote. You are rather sketchy on the facts. You say the child was diagnosed with ADD after you stopped babysitting him, but that your "strong arm" cured him. Which is it?

And when have I ever said everyone with ADD must take Ritalin?

Thank you for recognizing your total ignorance of what AD/HD is, what are its causes and effects, and its treatments.

Ample links and information has been provided in this thread, but you choose to deliberately ignore it and maintain your ignorance.

What a fine example you are setting for your children.

OK I viewed Every one of the two, ample links, both of which are biased towards the pro-treatment side of the debate. Neither has convinced me that AD?HD is a problem. I am still convinced that AD/HD is just another attempt of the medical and educational industries to squeeze a profit out of society, while at the same time controlling the minds of our children.

OK I viewed Every one of the two, ample links, both of which are biased towards the pro-treatment side of the debate. Neither has convinced me that AD?HD is a problem. I am still convinced that AD/HD is just another attempt of the medical and educational industries to squeeze a profit out of society, while at the same time controlling the minds of our children.
Hear, hear!

OK I viewed Every one of the two, ample links, both of which are biased towards the pro-treatment side of the debate. Neither has convinced me that AD?HD is a problem. I am still convinced that AD/HD is just another attempt of the medical and educational industries to squeeze a profit out of society, while at the same time controlling the minds of our children.

There were links within the links, but nevermind.

You can lead a horse to water, but not make him drink.

Attention Deficit: Isn't this just a fancy name for short attention span?

No, actually, it's not. It's much closer to being a fancy name for "attention span much shorter than in persons of comparable age and intelligence under comparable circumstances, and which creates real problems in everyday life" but even that doesn't really cover it. It's quite an easy term to look up; I suggest you try doing so.

Hyperactive Disorder Children are naturally active and curious, usually more so than adults. Sit them in front of a screen and give them no outlet for their energy, and Over-stimulate them with that very smae screen, and this becomes inevitable.

The "hyperactive" part does, true. Not the "disorder" part. I'm not sure why people are having so much trouble understanding that degree matters. Most children are sometimes fairly hyper. Most children are not constantly so hyper they can't sit still for even thirty seconds. Arguing that ADD can't be a real disorder because it's normal for kids to be hyper and have short attention spans is like arguing that cancer can't be a real disease because it's normal for cells to replicate.

Then when you diagnose AD/HD, Instead of giving them something else to do, some activity other than becoming an electronic zombie, Just dope them up, making them drugged-out zombies (oh its OK, The Doctor perscribed this drug. Its OK).

I have never seen Ritalin make anyone a "drugged-out zombie." I can't really fathom how a stimulant could do that. Nor have I ever heard of any doctor recommending that ADD patients be given drugs and then completely ignored, as you seem to be suggesting.

I cannot for the life of me figure out where all this hostility towards the use of psychoactive drugs is coming from. I've been misdiagnosed twice; I spent about fifteen years on drugs for disorders I didn't have, and dealt with quite a lot of really, really crappy side effects throughout that time. If anyone has good reason to hate psychoactive meds, I do. But I don't hate them. They help a lot of people, which is more than can be said of telling kids, "You don't need this drug that helps you be much happier and feel more like yourself, because really you're just a lazy ass and your parents don't love you."

Interesting how the majority of personal anecdotes are at odds with the “scientific” evidence.

"Opposing" scientific evidence makes a better story than agreeing with it. Of course, "some people don't have ADD, and aren't helped by Ritalin/Adderall/etc." doesn't seem like terribly strong opposition to "some people have ADD, and are helped by Ritalin/Adderall/etc." to me.

But if it'll help you feel better...

- My mother takes Adderall. It helps her.
- One of my high school friends took Ritalin from early elementary school onwards. It helped him.
- A girl I went to college with went from being a functional student to a dizzying-fast-talking, extraordinarily distractible, fidgety student who tended to turn everything in late shortly after going off Ritalin. I did not know she had been on Ritalin until I asked her what had changed.
- One of the little boys I've babysitted regularly began taking Ritalin several months after I met him. It quite obviously helps him a lot. He is now a happier child, and gets A's instead of D's in school. He can also do things like read books without getting up and running around the room after two sentences, and has become a devoted bookworm who wants to grow up to be an author.

Will that do?

Nice anecdote. You are rather sketchy on the facts. You say the child was diagnosed with ADD after you stopped babysitting him, but that your "strong arm" cured him. Which is it?

I never said I cured him, the fact that both parents were out, he had little contact with either parent in the form of spending quality time with him; couple that with his only companion being a television set and computer, little wonder he had the behaviour problems he did.

What this kid needed were parents who were active in his life, and took some interest in what he was doing - he didn't need a cure, he needed parents, he needed a role model, he needed a play mate.

And when have I ever said everyone with ADD must take Ritalin?

Its an easy way for incompetant parents to fob their responsibility off to the state in the form of blaming problems on the lack of medication rather than them not doing their job as parents.

I've yet to see a single case where a good sharp kick up the behind, good healthy food and some exercise couldn't solve the problem - and without the side effects that medication brings.

There were links within the links, but nevermind.

You can lead a horse to water, but not make him drink.

Although I post this in vain, here is more data re AD/HD:

Myths and Misconceptions About AD/HD:
Science over Cynicism (http://www.help4adhd.org/en/about/myths)

Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/adhd.cfm)

One of the little boys I've babysitted regularly began taking Ritalin several months after I met him. It quite obviously helps him a lot. He is now a happier child, and gets A's instead of D's in school. He can also do things like read books without getting up and running around the room after two sentences, and has become a devoted bookworm who wants to grow up to be an author.

Here is a great new idea! how about sittin down with the child and reading with him! take turn reading setences, turn it into something fun and exciting!

Jesus Christ, I would consider my self the worst possible candidate for beint a parent, and yet, I can muster up enough brain cells to actually come up with nice ways of forming a bond with a child, and getting them back on track.

Kids want a roll model, leadership and someone to look up to; what is so hard with reading a book together with your son or daughter? spending some time as they do their homework.

Or shock! horror! am I talking about that idea of parents actually being responsible parents rather than fucking each other out of control, pumping out children, then expecting society and everyone else to look after them.

I've yet to see a single case where a good sharp kick up the behind, good healthy food and some exercise couldn't solve the problem - and without the side effects that medication brings.

Ironically, healthy food and exercise are highly touted treatments for ADD. So you'll get no argument there.

But you've never met me or the dozens of people I've met that live with ADD and overcome it using medication.

Here is a great new idea! how about sittin down with the child and reading with him! take turn reading setences, turn it into something fun and exciting!

Jesus Christ, I would consider my self the worst possible candidate for beint a parent, and yet, I can muster up enough brain cells to actually come up with nice ways of forming a bond with a child, and getting them back on track.

Kids want a roll model, leadership and someone to look up to; what is so hard with reading a book together with your son or daughter? spending some time as they do their homework.

Or shock! horror! am I talking about that idea of parents actually being responsible parents rather than fucking each other out of control, pumping out children, then expecting society and everyone else to look after them.

Wax eloquent all you want about how some parents could be more involved and how others are downright irresponsible, but that does not mitigate the scientific evidence of a mental disorder that is not just a result of bad parenting.

Nor does it deal with ADD in Adults such as myself.

You would never sugggest that the parents of a child with Down's syndrome were to blame for their child's condition. How come you so glibly dismiss mental illness in children?

And why would you deny children the best treatment for their illness?

I never said I cured him, the fact that both parents were out, he had little contact with either parent in the form of spending quality time with him; couple that with his only companion being a television set and computer, little wonder he had the behaviour problems he did.

What this kid needed were parents who were active in his life, and took some interest in what he was doing - he didn't need a cure, he needed parents, he needed a role model, he needed a play mate.

You are still deliberately vague about the timeline, whether and when the child was diagnosed (and with what), how old the child is, etc.

A little Mary Poppins might improve any child's life. That doesn't mean they don't have a disorder.

OK I viewed Every one of the two, ample links, both of which are biased towards the pro-treatment side of the debate. Neither has convinced me that AD?HD is a problem. I am still convinced that AD/HD is just another attempt of the medical and educational industries to squeeze a profit out of society, while at the same time controlling the minds of our children.

BTW, the reason that there is ample evidence "biased toward the pro-treatment side." Is because of the utter lack of any evidence for the other side. All we have is speculation, paranoia, ignorance, and a few questionable anecdotes.

Here is a great new idea! how about sittin down with the child and reading with him! take turn reading setences, turn it into something fun and exciting!

Jesus Christ, I would consider my self the worst possible candidate for beint a parent, and yet, I can muster up enough brain cells to actually come up with nice ways of forming a bond with a child, and getting them back on track.

Kids want a roll model, leadership and someone to look up to; what is so hard with reading a book together with your son or daughter? spending some time as they do their homework.

Or shock! horror! am I talking about that idea of parents actually being responsible parents rather than fucking each other out of control, pumping out children, then expecting society and everyone else to look after them.

That's strange - I was under the impression that the kid's mom spent pretty much all day, every day with her two sons, save for the three hours two days a week when I babysat. I was under the impression that when she and his father told me they read him a bedtime story every night, they weren't randomly lying to me. I was under the impression that I worked with the kid one-on-one in the afternoons when his mother had class, that I helped him with his homework, and that his mother and I worked together to come up with all sorts of fun projects for him to do. I was under the impression that I helped comfort the child when he came home from school crying about how the other kids made fun of him for never knowing what the teacher was talking about when she called on him, and that I watched him throw a book at the wall because he was so frustrated with how long it took to find out what happened on the next page. I was, furthermore, under the impression that I know this family personally, while you have never met them. I must be wrong about all of this, however, since you clearly know the situation so well. Silly me!

Wax eloquent all you want about how some parents could be more involved and how others are downright irresponsible, but that does not mitigate the scientific evidence of a mental disorder that is not just a result of bad parenting.

Nor does it deal with ADD in Adults such as myself.

You would never sugggest that the parents of a child with Down's syndrome were to blame for their child's condition. How come you so glibly dismiss mental illness in children?

And why would you deny children the best treatment for their illness?

Downs syndrom can actually be traced back to the genetic level - pretty hard to miss the tell tale signs, ranging from the over sized tongue, to the mongol facial features - there are a tonne of markers that can be traced directly back to it.

And yes, bad parenting can't artificially retard a childs development; 20% of children in the US will have their development retarded because of poor parenting - hardly something that can be fixed with drugs.

A person who isn't achieving might not necessarily have a mental disorder, but simply their development has be stunted due to bad external factors.

BTW, the reason that there is ample evidence "biased toward the pro-treatment side." Is because of the utter lack of any evidence for the other side. All we have is speculation, paranoia, ignorance, and a few questionable anecdotes.

I wouldn't trust that side of the debate either.

Plain and simply put: psycho-active drugs alter the way a person thinks, therefor alters who they are. This is true regardless of the drug, its source, or any benefits it may or may not provide.

You are still deliberately vague about the timeline, whether and when the child was diagnosed (and with what), how old the child is, etc.

He was 7 going on 8 IIRC - its prety easy time line to understand; little terror, I arrived, kids is ok, I leave, kids a little terror, mother takes kid to doctor, diagnosed with ADD.

A little Mary Poppins might improve any child's life. That doesn't mean they don't have a disorder.

Babe, you don't suddenly get an upswing and praise from the school that the kids on track, then when I stop baby sitting, everything goes down the shitter. If he truely had ADD (if such a condition existed), my input wouldn't have done a bloody thing to his over all condition.

Couple that with numerous people who 'went on it' but 'came right', all it tells me is if ADD was a constant mental condition like Bipolar disorder, it would be with them for their whole life and non-curable.

You would never sugggest that the parents of a child with Down's syndrome were to blame for their child's condition.

Frighteningly enough, you can't take that for granted. I've heard parents blamed for having autistic children, so I'm sure someone out there thinks that Down's syndrome could be prevented if parents tried hard enough. :rolleyes:

Frighteningly enough, you can't take that for granted. I've heard parents blamed for having autistic children, so I'm sure someone out there thinks that Down's syndrome could be prevented if parents tried hard enough. :rolleyes:

How so? Autism is, yet another proven condition; you can CAT scan their brain, and actually identifiy it.

ADD; they sit you down, pray that the tell tale signs are right, then pump the kid full of medication - hardly a proceedure that I would consider 'conclusive evidence' that the individual actually does have the condition of ADD (if such a condition existed).

Plain and simply put: psycho-active drugs alter the way a person thinks, therefor alters who they are. This is true regardless of the drug, its source, or any benefits it may or may not provide.

That is exactly the sort of reasoning that keeps many depressive people from seeking treatment, and leads to a great deal of unnecessary misery. I have bipolar II disorder, but bipolar II is not in any way, shape, or form "who I am." Taking lithium never made me a different person - it just made me a person more capable of thinking things like "I am very unhappy" without then thinking "I am a worthless failure who doesn't deserve to live. Where's that bottle of sleeping pills?" I don't happen to believe wanting to die is fundamental to who I am as a human being, and I don't happen to believe not being able to sit still even when he really, really wants to is fundamental to someone with ADD. If you do, I suggest that you also try telling someone with cancer not to get treated, because tumors are a fundamental part of "who they are." It makes just as much sense.

That is exactly the sort of reasoning that keeps many depressive people from seeking treatment, and leads to a great deal of unnecessary misery. I have bipolar II disorder, but bipolar II is not in any way, shape, or form "who I am." Taking lithium never made me a different person - it just made me a person more capable of thinking things like "I am very unhappy" without then thinking "I am a worthless failure who doesn't deserve to live. Where's that bottle of sleeping pills?" I don't happen to believe wanting to die is fundamental to who I am as a human being, and I don't happen to believe not being able to sit still even when he really, really wants to is fundamental to someone with ADD. If you do, I suggest that you also try telling someone with cancer not to get treated, because tumors are a fundamental part of "who they are." It makes just as much sense.

Your thoughts were altered. In this case, altered for your betterment, yet they were still altered.

Comparing purely mental disorders, to physical ones, is like comparing apples and oranges: A mental disorder may make you more prone to self-destructive actions, but is not directly lethal. A physical disorder on the other hand can cause your death directly.

I am dumb struck by the total ignorant bigotry posted on this thread, I suggest that those who have not go read my previous posts on page 5 I think.

I am not a lazy or bad parent, I just stood in the rain for an hour and a half watching the light of my life play football, (WOW HOW CAN HE DO THAT! HE IS DOPED UP!)

Or shock! horror! am I talking about that idea of parents actually being responsible parents rather than fucking each other out of control, pumping out children, then expecting society and everyone else to look after them.

Lovely Boys and Big Jim P, How do you manage to get through life being so bloody perfect all the time? jeez....

As to your opinions on ADHD, I wish it didn't exist, I wish I didn't have to give my boy a drug, I wish that life was perfect for him all the damn time and that people with stupid bigoted ignorant ideas would stfu.