NationStates Jolt Archive

I have no problems with you protecting you and your sisters life, and it is true that a gun will remove your problem, BUT YOU JUST KILLED A MAN. That fact never changes, you might get the newspaper saying on how quickly you acted and such a hero you are. You still killed some guy. and the thing is until the smoke clears, until you see the corpse you have no idea who.

Okay...*sigh* How to go about this...Never say never? I don't think there's any arguement worth using on you...

This? The debate? Bobs Own Pipe? Chercheurs de linconn? Guns? The forum?

The entire ideal of debate amongst a bunch of political fanatics who are not going to change their opinion no matter how badly they are shown to be wrong.

(Carry permits all the way)

This is assinine.


Welcome to debates w/ anti-gunners.

you think this is funny!!!?!!??. They died man and you people use them in your propaganda. They died, they died for no reason. They died because people killed them and you think this is funny.

Umm....I was taalking about you literally brushing off facts as numbers on a screen....But you worry me a bit...I'm glad you'll never have a gun.

I know, and I would take no pleasure in doing it. I wouldn't beat off over his corpse with my gun in my hand. It would be something that would be with me until I die, but I would at least take comfort in the fact that I saved my life and my sister's life. I would rather kill a evil man and feel bad for the rest of my life than see an good and innocent family member die and feel guilt.

I am not saying that I want that man to win, that i want you and your sister to die. I wish for that to never happen to you. But the carrying of guns in public is handing a can of fuel and a match to someone. Now you know not to mix the two, but you are putting the possibility of an explosion into the mix

The entire ideal of debate amongst a bunch of political fanatics who are not going to change their opinion no matter how badly they are shown to be wrong.

(Carry permits all the way)

You mean every debate on NS?

your just proving my point, You have no problems with killng that man. You want a gun, you want the right to carry that gun, because you know you can and will use it. Now that scares me, more than anything else, that scares me the most.
I doubt anyone can kill another without feeling remorse. The question is all relative, though. Will you feel more remorse over the death of some predator that threatened you and yours, or over the death of his potential victims?

It's an easy decision for me to make. That doesn't mean I won't feel bad afterward, but it does mean that I won't regret the loss of anyone that depends on me.

Umm....I was taalking about you literally brushing off facts as numbers on a screen....But you worry me a bit...I'm glad you'll never have a gun.

i was not brushing them off. I was stating that you use them like they are nothing but numbers. and I for one never want a gun so your safe.

You mean every debate on NS?

Exactly.

...Can you start with an arguement?
No doubt you missed it, what with the rapid pace of the thread - I've recanted. I've been persuaded that America needs no gun laws whatsoever, and I'm now openly advocating that as many Americans arm themselves as possible. After all, if there are tight gun laws, so the persuasive reasoning went, hordes of innocent people will be killed. If there are loose gun laws, that will diminish.

Taken to its' logical conclusion, no gun laws = no gun deaths. Right? So:

ONLY PEOPLE WITHOUT GUNS WILL BE KILLED BY GUNS. DON'T GET KILLED - FILL THAT SO-CALLED "LIVING ROOM" WITH ASSAULT RIFLES... AND LIVE FOREVER!

AMERICANS: SPEND ALL YOUR MONEY ON GUNS. ANYTHING LESS IS UNPATRIOTIC AND WILL LEAD TO FURTHER UNNECESSARY VIOLENT DEATHS.

I am not saying that I want that man to win, that i want you and your sister to die. I wish for that to never happen to you. But the carrying of guns in public is handing a can of fuel and a match to someone. Now you know not to mix the two, but you are putting the possibility of an explosion into the mix

Yet it HAS NOT HAPPENED!!! ANYWHERE!!!

There are 39 states w/ shall issue. There has been no "blood in the streets", "wild west shootouts" or any other silly idiom that the anti-gunners have spouted over the years.

CCW holders are MORE law abiding than your average citizen.

If you think it "implies" that, you need counseling.

Easy, bro. I'm just joking around here. I've got nothing against mitosis.

Taken to its' logical conclusion, no gun laws = no gun deaths. Right? So:

ONLY PEOPLE WITHOUT GUNS WILL BE KILLED BY GUNS. DON'T GET KILLED - FILL THAT SO-CALLED "LIVING ROOM" WITH ASSAULT RIFLES... AND LIVE FOREVER!

AMERICANS: SPEND ALL YOUR MONEY ON GUNS. ANYTHING LESS IS UNPATRIOTIC AND WILL LEAD TO FURTHER UNNECESSARY VIOLENT DEATHS.

Pink, what an appropriate color.

I have a greater chance of being a "statistic" if I'm an urban, AA Male between the ages of 18-34 w/ a felony record. SInce I'm not though...

By statistics, I'm quite safe especially w/ having a firearm.


So you're an idealist. That's fine. I'm a realist.

you know justify all you want, having a gun is having a way to kill some one this is fact. It is also fact that you want the right to carry these in public. I am not enough of an idealist to know that is not good.

Easy, bro. I'm just joking around here. I've got nothing against mitosis.

Sorry. We really need sarcasm smilies.

I am not saying that I want that man to win, that i want you and your sister to die. I wish for that to never happen to you. But the carrying of guns in public is handing a can of fuel and a match to someone. Now you know not to mix the two, but you are putting the possibility of an explosion into the mix


Maybe, but why should compassion for saving lives be restricted to my house? If I see a woman being attacked or raped in public, I'd rush to her defense with or without a gun. A gun would reduce the chance of harm to all involved because even the most vile criminals don't want to be shot. It's human nature, pain is bad. Because for all I know he has a knife, and if I try to restrain him I could get stabbed. If I pull out a gun he's less likely to stab me because I can pull the trigger that much faster. If he runs, then fine, he gets away. But the person I saved would be ok, even though the bad guy got away.

We must all fear evil men, but there is another kind of evil that we must fear most: the indifference of good men.

Welcome to debates w/ anti-gunners.
Yeah, damn anti-gunners. I'm glad to be on YOUR side of the argument, now.;)

Pink, what an appropriate color.
Colour-blindness, what an appropriate affliction.

But none too cool, what with me being on YOUR side now, and all.

you know justify all you want, having a gun is having a way to kill some one this is fact. It is also fact that you want the right to carry these in public. I am not enough of an idealist to know that is not good.

I own quite a few firearms. I have never killed anyone and have no desire to do so.

Your opinion that it is "not good" is only that, an opinion. You have shown nothing but emotional rhetoric to try and support your opinion.

you know justify all you want, having a gun is having a way to kill some one this is fact. It is also fact that you want the right to carry these in public. I am not enough of an idealist to know that is not good.

It's statisticallly better, however.

Unfortunately, as that thread proved, there are many, many people out there who think that sort of reaction to a kid on your lawn is fully justified, and who would act similarly if they were in such a situation.

Sociological point here: Posters on an Internet forum are not "people." An internet forum contains far too small, and usually heterogeneous in some way, a sample to tell us anything about the general population.

Colour-blindness, what an appropriate affliction.

But none too cool, what with me being on YOUR side now, and all.

Go to gunguys.com

I think it's the site for you.

No doubt you missed it, what with the rapid pace of the thread - I've recanted. I've been persuaded that America needs no gun laws whatsoever, and I'm now openly advocating that as many Americans arm themselves as possible. After all, if there are tight gun laws, so the persuasive reasoning went, hordes of innocent people will be killed. If there are loose gun laws, that will diminish.

Taken to its' logical conclusion, no gun laws = no gun deaths. Right? So:

ONLY PEOPLE WITHOUT GUNS WILL BE KILLED BY GUNS. DON'T GET KILLED - FILL THAT SO-CALLED "LIVING ROOM" WITH ASSAULT RIFLES... AND LIVE FOREVER!

AMERICANS: SPEND ALL YOUR MONEY ON GUNS. ANYTHING LESS IS UNPATRIOTIC AND WILL LEAD TO FURTHER UNNECESSARY VIOLENT DEATHS.

The Swiss issue a assault rifle to all males for their militia service, and as a result Switzerland has one of the lowest crime rates on earth.

you know justify all you want, having a gun is having a way to kill some one this is fact. It is also fact that you want the right to carry these in public. I am not enough of an idealist to know that is not good.

I carry a pocket knife in public (largest blade the law will allow), yet I don't go around stabbing people. Why is a gun any different? It doesn't mean I'm going to go around shooting people.

I own quite a few firearms. I have never killed anyone and have no desire to do so.

Your opinion that it is "not good" is only that, an opinion. You have shown nothing but emotional rhetoric to try and support your opinion.
And well, as those of us "in the know" know, only by arming each and every citizen with as much firepower as possible can we ever hope for safety in public. Silly anti-gun lobby.

Sorry. We really need sarcasm smilies.

This is true. That probably would have been a good time to use the :p.

Maybe, but why should compassion for saving lives be restricted to my house? If I see a woman being attacked or raped in public, I'd rush to her defense with or without a gun. A gun would reduce the chance of harm to all involved because even the most vile criminals don't want to be shot. It's human nature, pain is bad. Because for all I know he has a knife, and if I try to restrain him I could get stabbed. If I pull out a gun he's less likely to stab me because I can pull the trigger that much faster. If he runs, then fine, he gets away. But the person I saved would be ok, even though the bad guy got away.

We must all fear evil men, but there is another kind of evil that we must fear most: the indifference of good men.

I never said I wanted the man dead, Just that you survive, it's not what you want to do or not do with the gun that is most scary. It's the fact that you would blow a man away because it look like he was raping a woman. What happens if you killed an inoocent man "by accident" of course. You keep spouting the "nice scenarios" even though they end in death and if that is the nice ending I really don't know what to say.

Sociological point here: Posters on an Internet forum are not "people." An internet forum contains far too small, and usually heterogeneous in some way, a sample to tell us anything about the general population.

Especially this one...seems to pick the smart, with a sprinkle of insane. Gaming forums, however, can pretty well reflect how stupid most people are in the general populous.

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/articles/guns-crime-swiss.html

And well, as those of us "in the know" know, only by arming each and every citizen with as much firepower as possible can we ever hope for safety in public. Silly anti-gun lobby.

Leave that poor straw man alone. He did nothing to you.

The Swiss issue a assault rifle to all males for their militia service, and as a result Switzerland has one of the lowest crime rates on earth.

The gov't also sponsors various competitions for youth and adults and subsidizes ammunition.

Over half of their violent crime is by non-citizens who aren't allowed to own firearms in the first place.

I carry a pocket knife in public (largest blade the law will allow), yet I don't go around stabbing people. Why is a gun any different? It doesn't mean I'm going to go around shooting people.

Your allready allowed Knifes !!!?!!!. I think that is your problem, your deviding it into a civil war, You and them. Good guys and bad guys. You all want to be heros is that it, save the day fight the bad guy end up with the girl (or guy).

I never said I wanted the man dead, Just that you survive, it's not what you want to do or not do with the gun that is most scary. It's the fact that you would blow a man away because it look like he was raping a woman. What happens if you killed an inoocent man "by accident" of course. You keep spouting the "nice scenarios" even though they end in death and if that is the nice ending I really don't know what to say.


In that scenario I never said I would shoot! Stop making things up.

All I said was the mere sight of a gun would be enough to stop any scenario like that. Did you know that a LOT police standoffs end with a cop simply pumping a shotgun? The sound of that weapon cocking is enough to make most criminals think twice. Fear of pain can be a great deterrent, and the weapon doesn't even have to be discharged.

In that scenario I never said I would shoot! Stop making things up.

All I said was the mere sight of a gun would be enough to stop any scenario like that. Did you know that a LOT police standoffs end with a cop simply pumping a shotgun? The sound of that weapon cocking is enough to make most criminals think twice. Fear of pain can be a great deterrent, and the weapon doesn't even have to be discharged.

You realize he's only sucking away at your rationality...like some kind of logic vampire.

Your allready allowed Knifes !!!?!!!. I think that is your problem, your deviding it into a civil war, You and them. Good guys and bad guys. You all want to be heros is that it, save the day fight the bad guy end up with the girl (or guy).

More emotional rhetoric. I don't want to "save the day" or have any hero visage. I want to be able to defend my family and myself against criminals.

Your allready allowed Knifes !!!?!!!. I think that is your problem, your deviding it into a civil war, You and them. Good guys and bad guys. You all want to be heros is that it, save the day fight the bad guy end up with the girl (or guy).

What country do you live in?!?!?! Knives are nothing out of the ordinary, Boy Scouts carry them!

Your extremist reactions to these kinds of things scare me. The US is in no way, shape or form about to devide into a 'civil war' between good guys and bad guys. You really need to chill dude, things aren't as explosive as you think they are. I think you should be more concerned about the thousands of nuclear missiles that are still active, because those are a bigger concern than guns will ever be.

In that scenario I never said I would shoot! Stop making things up.

All I said was the mere sight of a gun would be enough to stop any scenario like that. Did you know that a LOT police standoffs end with a cop simply pumping a shotgun? The sound of that weapon cocking is enough to make most criminals think twice. Fear of pain can be a great deterrent, and the weapon doesn't even have to be discharged.

I never make things up, you yourself stated you would have no problems shooting the man, I never said you would definetly shoot the man, Just that you have a shit load more chance of shooting him with a loaded rifle in your hand then you do when you don't. You all say that i have been watching to many movies and that I ahve a fear of guns. Yes i have been watching to many movies, and yes i have fear of guns. If you don't havea fear of guns and what they can do your the last person who should have one. The same goes with everyone no matter how you devide it up into usand them

You realize he's only sucking away at your rationality...like some kind of logic vampire.


Lo.....gic?

;)

I never make things up, you yourself stated you would have no problems shooting the man, I never said you would definetly shoot the man, Just that you have a shit load more chance of shooting him with a loaded rifle in your hand then you do when you don't. You all say that i have been watching to many movies and that I ahve a fear of guns. Yes i have been watching to many movies, and yes i have fear of guns. If you don't havea fear of guns and what they can do your the last person who should have one. The same goes with everyone no matter how you devide it up into usand them

So you have a fear of inanimate objects? Because that's all a firearm is.

What happens when an American city decides to ban guns?
See Washington DC:
http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/11-05/11-17-05/a16op849.htm
According to FBI crime statistics, before the ban in 1976, Washington's murder rate was declining. In the 15 years that followed the ban, Washington's murder rate climbed 200 percent, while the national rate climbed only 12 percent.
Washington, D.C., is now consistently one of the most dangerous cities in the country. In 2002, it overtook Detroit and claimed the title as the murder capital of the United States. During that year, it defied national trends of decreasing murder rates to post a 13 percent increase.

If you don't havea fear of guns and what they can do your the last person who should have one.


I agree 100%.

EVERY responsible firearm owner knows and RESPECTS the power and capabilities of their weapon. Lack of understanding and respect for firearms are just as deadly as the guns themselves, and I agree that irresponsible people should not have guns.

What country do you live in?!?!?! Knives are nothing out of the ordinary, Boy Scouts carry them!

Your extremist reactions to these kinds of things scare me. The US is in no way, shape or form about to devide into a 'civil war' between good guys and bad guys. You really need to chill dude, things aren't as explosive as you think they are. I think you should be more concerned about the thousands of nuclear missiles that are still active, because those are a bigger concern than guns will ever be.

okay so since we have bigger weapons to worry about lets forget about the little ones. You seem to have quite the dislike for nuclear weapons, why? they kill people to, you seem to have them for self defence and as a deterant. The only difference is that you can't hide the bodies in statistics. You know when a country is blown up. Knives kill, guns, kill hell just about everything out there kills. The reason behind you carrying guns is null. You want to carry them so you can protect, me I'll take a riot sheild.

So you have a fear of inanimate objects? Because that's all a firearm is.

... I can't beleive you just said that.

Now that I've officially recanted, I'd just like to enthuse Americans to

BUY AS MANY GUNS AS POSSIBLE. PLEASE BUY AS MANY GUNS AS POSSIBLE. THE REST OF THE PLANET IS COUNTING ON YOU.
I'd like to credit you for standing by your principles, and not letting silly things like facts stop you from staying the course.

You want to carry them so you can protect, me I'll take a riot sheild.

Ironically, the places w/ the strictest rules on firearms also have regulations against civilians owning body armor.

Go figure.

... I can't beleive you just said that.

Are you denying that a firearm is inanimate?

I learn the proper use for all my tools and have respect for thier capabilities.

IF YOU DON'T SPEND ALL YOUR MATERIAL WEALTH ON FIREARMS, YOU WON'T LIVE FOREVER.

DON'T FALL INTO THE TRAP OF NOT HAVING THE MEANS TO KILL AT YOUR FINGERTIPS, 24/7!

YOUR CHILDREN WILL APPRECIATE THAT IT'S FOR THEIR PROTECTION THAT YOU SPEND THEIR COLLEGE FUND ON SAMs FOR THE FRONT PORCH!

Are you denying that a firearm is inanimate?

I learn the proper use for all my tools and have respect for thier capabilities.

this has nothing to do with respect, there is no respect in death, You are all like children who feels that their favorite "toy" is under threat.

Washington DC logic:

Washington DC's low murder rate of 69 per 100,000 is due to strict gun control, and Indianapolis' high murder rate of 9 per 100,000 is due to the lack of gun control.

The more helpless you are the safer you are from criminals.

The 2nd Amendment, ratified in 1787, refers to the National Guard, which was created 130 years later, in 1917.

The National Guard, federally funded, with bases on federal land, using federally-owned weapons, vehicles, buildings and uniforms, punishing trespassers under federal law, is a "state" militia.

These phrases: "right of the people peaceably to assemble," "right of the people to be secure in their homes," "enumerations herein of certain rights shall not be construed to disparage others retained by the people," and "The powers not delegated herein are reserved to the states respectively, and to the people" all refer to individuals, but "the right of the people to keep and bear arm" refers to the state.

Ordinary people in the presence of guns turn into slaughtering butchers but revert to normal when the weapon is removed.

okay so since we have bigger weapons to worry about lets forget about the little ones. You seem to have quite the dislike for nuclear weapons, why?

Because they are far more devastating than guns. Guns don't leave radioactive contamination.

they kill people to, you seem to have them for self defence and as a deterant.

That we do, but I know that the USA will only use them as an absolute last resort. However the nuclear problem is different than the gun problem because we (as in the UN, the world, etc.) can stop (or at least damn well try) bad people from getting nukes, whereas a bad guy can buy a gun on the black market for peanuts.

The only difference is that you can't hide the bodies in statistics. You know when a country is blown up. Knives kill, guns, kill hell just about everything out there kills. The reason behind you carrying guns is null. You want to carry them so you can protect, me I'll take a riot sheild.

Do you know some countries still stone the village harlot? You're right, anything can kill. You could probably kill someone with your TV remote. That doesn't mean that I'm going to lobby for banning of TV remotes, or wear body armor 24/7.

IF YOU DON'T SPEND ALL YOUR MATERIAL WEALTH ON FIREARMS, YOU WON'T LIVE FOREVER.

DON'T FALL INTO THE TRAP OF NOT HAVING THE MEANS TO KILL AT YOUR FINGERTIPS, 24/7!

YOUR CHILDREN WILL APPRECIATE THAT IT'S FOR THEIR PROTECTION THAT YOU SPEND THEIR COLLEGE FUND ON SAMs FOR THE FRONT PORCH!

No, I really mean it this time. Stop beating the straw man. You're hurting him.

this has nothing to do with respect, there is no respect in death, You are all like children who feels that their favorite "toy" is under threat.

Who's talking about death? That seems to be only you.

I also don't consider firearms to be "toys". They are tools.

And if by "under threat" you mean ignorant politicians attempting to ban or confiscate them while at the same time allowing criminals free reign, then yes.

No, I really mean it this time. Stop beating the straw man. You're hurting him.
What? I'm on YOUR side, here. I've been convinced by the persuasive arguments presented that I was wrong, and the only way to achieve total peace and security is to achieve total personal armament.

Sheesh.

this has nothing to do with respect, there is no respect in death,

Of course it has to do with respect. If you do not respect the fact that your weapon can take a life, then you should not have one. Responsibility and respect are two things that most every gun owner has for their weapons. It is only when those two things are absent that people die.

You are all like children who feels that their favorite "toy" is under threat.

Guns should never be called toys.

yes I would like to ban guns, knifes weapons of mass destruction etc. Why is this a bad thing. Your all afraid that if it happened some other guy will keep his and will have power over you. If we could get rid of every other gun but yours would you get rid of it?

Guns should never be called toys.

nor tools

In that scenario I never said I would shoot! Stop making things up.

All I said was the mere sight of a gun would be enough to stop any scenario like that. Did you know that a LOT police standoffs end with a cop simply pumping a shotgun? The sound of that weapon cocking is enough to make most criminals think twice. Fear of pain can be a great deterrent, and the weapon doesn't even have to be discharged.

Fear of pain can be a great deterrent. I was in D.C. with a bunch of my Marine buddies, and we happened apon a bunch of street punks (a somewhat large group, eight or so) acosting a street vender. Our group looks something like this: four large heavily muscled men all with crew cuts two of them wearing some sort of shirt that says something akin to "USMC" on it, then myself wearing combat boots, cargo pants and the obligitory gray with black lettering "Navy" shirt. (The fourth man was wearing usual street clothes) They took one look at us and literaly ran. We thought this was strange as we had no idea what they were doing (we were under the impresion it was a line) until the vender thanked us and offered each of us a free soda.
Fear of pain indeed.

yes I would like to ban guns, knifes weapons of mass destruction etc. Why is this a bad thing. Your all afraid that if it happened some other guy will keep his and will have power over you. If we could get rid of every other gun but yours would you get rid of it?

No, because firearms are an equalizer for those who are physically unable to defend themselves.

http://www.wral.com/news/8001292/detail.html
http://www.azstarnet.com/altsn/snredesign/relatedarticles/119091

nor tools


When used for hunting game (deer, elk, but not people) guns can be considered tools.

nor tools

and yet that's what they are.

Are you physically unable to defend yourself?

Do Elk and Deer taunt you?

What you need are tactical nuclear missiles!

Now that's equalization.

No, because firearms are an equalizer for those who are physically unable to defend themselves.



So your saying even if no body else ahd any gun's you would still keep yours, Why? The problem is that people have gotten really good at killing each other, spears, swords, guns with each progressive step we get that much better at killing each other, What it comes down to is you want something in you pocket that can bring down the fear of death upon them, Who, you have spouted facts and given me scenarios. How many of you will be in that scenario, you are letting your fear control your actions. I am NOT saying it won't happen, But then I gues that's the real problem. One day it just might and instead of trying to stop that day from coming you decide to treat everyday like that one fateful moment and hope to hell that tommorow comes.

No, because firearms are an equalizer for those who are physically unable to defend themselves.

http://www.wral.com/news/8001292/detail.html
http://www.azstarnet.com/altsn/snredesign/relatedarticles/119091


Agreed. Though I would also lobby for legalization of stun guns and tazers (I'm pretty sure they're illegal in Wisconsin, don't know about the rest of the US. Pepper spray is legal, but up to a certain concentration). But there are some people out there that won't be affected by these things, hence where a firearm comes into play.

Are you physically unable to defend yourself?

Do Elk and Deer taunt you?

What you need are tactical nuclear missiles!

Now that's equalization.

Blow it out your ass. Blunt enough for you?

Blow it out your ass. Blunt enough for you?
But, I'm on YOUR side!

When used for hunting game (deer, elk, but not people) guns can be considered tools.

a gun is one thing it cannot change it cannot be a tool and a weapon. it can only be one of them. It is indeed a weapon, not amount of argument will cahnge this fact. It kills, it's sole purpose is killing in fact it is the pinnicle of hundreds of thousands of years of killing and you want to carry it around day to day?

Soo...I assume your stance is lay down and let them do whatever they want?
Personally, I blame religion for attitudes like his.

But the fact that you people can kill other human beings scares me more than words can say.
If it's a choice between the instigator of violence dying, or his victim dying, isn't it better that the instigator dies?

You mean every debate on NS?
No, this is worse than anything I've seen in a while. It's as bad as the gay marriage debates back in October 2004.

Pink, what an appropriate color.
Dude get your eyes checked, that's Vermillion Red.

you know justify all you want, having a gun is having a way to kill some one this is fact.
Having a screwdriver is having a way to kill someone. You're surely not going to use it for that purpose though, even though it is possible, and people have been killed with screwdrivers before.

And well, as those of us "in the know" know, only by arming each and every citizen with as much firepower as possible can we ever hope for safety in public. Silly anti-gun lobby.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

YOUR CHILDREN WILL APPRECIATE THAT IT'S FOR THEIR PROTECTION THAT YOU SPEND THEIR COLLEGE FUND ON SAMs FOR THE FRONT PORCH!
:p good one

What? I'm on YOUR side, here. I've been convinced by the persuasive arguments presented that I was wrong, and the only way to achieve total peace and security is to achieve total personal armament.

Sheesh.
But, I'm on YOUR side!

Being a strawman-beating idiot knows no political bounds.

yes I would like to ban guns, knifes weapons of mass destruction etc. Why is this a bad thing. Your all afraid that if it happened some other guy will keep his and will have power over you. If we could get rid of every other gun but yours would you get rid of it?
Yes I would get rid of it! (in real life I don't own a gun anyway)

But you're talking idealism. There's no way to actually achieve this in real life.

Who, you have spouted facts and given me scenarios. How many of you will be in that scenario, you are letting your fear control your actions. I am NOT saying it won't happen, But then I gues that's the real problem. One day it just might

And indeed it did come to my cousin Sarah, who was almost murdered by her ex-boyfriend. She was pushed into the backseat of his car and had her throat slashed, then she was stabbed and cut multiple times. She played dead, and her ex went into a nearby park and hung himself. She nearly died from blood loss, and to this day has a long scar across her throat.

I personally never say 'it won't happen to me', because the second I say that, it will happen.

So your saying even if no body else ahd any gun's you would still keep yours, Why? The problem is that people have gotten really good at killing each other, spears, swords, guns with each progressive step we get that much better at killing each other, What it comes down to is you want something in you pocket that can bring down the fear of death upon them, Who, you have spouted facts and given me scenarios. How many of you will be in that scenario, you are letting your fear control your actions. I am NOT saying it won't happen, But then I gues that's the real problem. One day it just might and instead of trying to stop that day from coming you decide to treat everyday like that one fateful moment and hope to hell that tommorow comes.

How many times do we need to say this? I'm not the only one in my house. I also use firearms for other things besides home defense. There have been lists posted (of which you've apparently ignored) that show myriad uses of firearms that do not involve going out and killing people.

It is you that is letting fear control your actions. You've already admitted it. I have a fire extinguisher in my home in case there's a fire. I'm not letting "fear" control my actions but am being prepared w/ the proper tools for the job.

You have spouted nothing but emotional rhetoric that has little basis in the real world.

Are you physically unable to defend yourself?

Do Elk and Deer taunt you?

What you need are tactical nuclear missiles!

Now that's equalization.
sharp objects are dangerous! Ban all nukes, all guns, all bombs, all knives, all forks, and all chopsticks. Amputate everyones fingers too because that could poke someone's eye out.

a gun is one thing it cannot change it cannot be a tool and a weapon. it can only be one of them. It is indeed a weapon, not amount of argument will cahnge this fact. It kills, it's sole purpose is killing in fact it is the pinnicle of hundreds of thousands of years of killing and you want to carry it around day to day?

A weapon can be a tool.

Once again, there's been other uses shown besides "killing" and the majority of them are not used for that purpose.

But you're talking idealism. There's no way to actually achieve this in real life.

You know it is possible to acheive it, People strive everyday to acheive it. You saying that they can't is a shame, a reall shame. When good people do nothing, i think someone used that qoute in here. When good people do nothing, You all think that is a means to take up arms, I think that is a means to stop that very action.

But, I'm on YOUR side!

I am cognisant of that fact, however you are being childish. Please cease.

Dude get your eyes checked, that's Vermillion Red.




I was being sarcastic. It's a Subgenius thing.

a gun is one thing it cannot change it cannot be a tool and a weapon. it can only be one of them. It is indeed a weapon, not amount of argument will cahnge this fact. It kills, it's sole purpose is killing in fact it is the pinnicle of hundreds of thousands of years of killing and you want to carry it around day to day?


Yes, and I've spent the last 2 hours or so telling you why through scenarios and simple firearm owner common sense.

I respect your decision to not own or like firearms, but in return I expect you to return the courtesy. You may not like it, but people all over the world will continue to carry firearms for protection, and arguing on an internet forum certainly won't change that.

Now, I'm going to head out and play paintball, the only time you can "shoot" someone and laugh about it with them later.

How many times do we need to say this? I'm not the only one in my house. I also use firearms for other things besides home defense. There have been lists posted (of which you've apparently ignored) that show myriad uses of firearms that do not involve going out and killing people.

It is you that is letting fear control your actions. You've already admitted it. I have a fire extinguisher in my home in case there's a fire. I'm not letting "fear" control my actions but am being prepared w/ the proper tools for the job.

You have spouted nothing but emotional rhetoric that has little basis in the real world.
Hot damn! There's other (myriad, even) ways to use firearms other than to kill people?

Well, as one of your newest and most faithful converts to the wholesome goodness of universal armament, I demand you provide a link so that I can witness the full measure of autonomy, safety, and freedoms that I've been missing out on in all my years of wrong-headedness and silly promulgation of weaponless societies.

Link! Link! Link!

You know it is possible to acheive it, People strive everyday to acheive it. You saying that they can't is a shame, a reall shame. When good people do nothing, i think someone used that qoute in here. When good people do nothing, You all think that is a means to take up arms, I think that is a means to stop that very action.

It will never be achieved. You can strive for it and that's exaclty what CCW holders are doing. They are good people acting to defend themselves and thier families against those who do evil.

How many times do we need to say this? I'm not the only one in my house. I also use firearms for other things besides home defense. There have been lists posted (of which you've apparently ignored) that show myriad uses of firearms that do not involve going out and killing people.

It is you that is letting fear control your actions. You've already admitted it. I have a fire extinguisher in my home in case there's a fire. I'm not letting "fear" control my actions but am being prepared w/ the proper tools for the job.

You have spouted nothing but emotional rhetoric that has little basis in the real world.

But we are talking about death, that is where the conversation has gone, death and how people preceive it. You all call a gun a tool a device to be used. I call it a device that kills. Two ends of a seemingly endless spectrum. You all seem okay with the idea of killing people. No matter what the circumstances are you all seem to be okay with this fact, not that is truely scary

It is you that is letting fear control your actions. You've already admitted it. I have a fire extinguisher in my home in case there's a fire. I'm not letting "fear" control my actions but am being prepared w/ the proper tools for the job.


*claps*

Hence my spare tire remark eariler.

I am cognisant of that fact, however you are being childish. Please cease.
There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish.

Agreed. Though I would also lobby for legalization of stun guns and tazers (I'm pretty sure they're illegal in Wisconsin, don't know about the rest of the US. Pepper spray is legal, but up to a certain concentration). But there are some people out there that won't be affected by these things, hence where a firearm comes into play.


Yet the odds of running into a man who is immune/tolerant to stun guns and pepper spray is much less than the chances of an innocent accident with a gun.

Guns should only be in the hands of responsible people
Not everyone is a responsible person.
-----
Not everyone should have a gun.

That's my logic behind gun control, which is mainly why I am worried about a gun being frequent in public. Way too much could go wrong as opposed to the few things that could go right (defeating a man who is immune to pepper spray and tazers).

I am not against owning a gun in anyway, I just feel that too many people who are unqualified own guns.

Hot damn! There's other (myriad, even) ways to use firearms other than to kill people?

Well, as one of your newest and most faithful converts to the wholesome goodness of universal armament, I demand you provide a link so that I can witness the full measure of autonomy, safety, and freedoms that I've been missing out on in all my years of wrong-headedness and silly promulgation of weaponless societies.

Link! Link! Link!

So what you're saying is you haven't actually read the thread?

You all seem okay with the idea of killing people. No matter what the circumstances are you all seem to be okay with this fact, not that is truely scary

BS!

How many times have we stated that we would take no pleasure in using a firearm against another person? How many times does it need to be drummed into your head? The only people that WANT or LIKE to kill other people are criminals, and I am certainly not one.

So what you're saying is you haven't actually read the thread?
Fuck, no. Not if it reads like you rant.

SubGenius, my ass.

Here are the facts that we have all managed to agree on,

You want to keep the right to carry concealed guns in public, for the reasons of protection from and deterance of crime.

If you are ever in a situation where you might need to use that gun, if it ever turns up tell me.

Of course it has happened to other people, I mean you know a guy who know's a guy right and then there are all your prescious facts they have to be true right.

I know bad things happen but rather then accepting it and arming up I want to try and make it better and if I get killed in the process so be it at least I tried.

Yet the odds of running into a man who is immune/tolerant to stun guns and pepper spray is much less than the chances of an innocent accident with a gun.

Guns should only be in the hands of responsible people
Not everyone is a responsible person.
-----
Not everyone should have a gun.

That's my logic behind gun control, which is mainly why I am worried about a gun being frequent in public. Way too much could go wrong as opposed to the few things that could go right (defeating a man who is immune to pepper spray and tazers).

I am not against owning a gun in anyway, I just feel that too many people who are unqualified own guns.


The majority of states that have CCW laws have more intensive background checks and mandatory training. I support this. Statistically, they have been MORE law abiding than the average citizen.

There are those who mishandle firearms. However, they are in the minority. "Accidents" among children and hunters have been dropping for years even though ownership levels have increased.

If there were some way of passing a universal training law that wouldn't be used for general denial or to make it exceedingly difficult to own (like "safe storage laws, may issue states, etc) I would support them.

Fuck, no. Not if it reads like you rant.

SubGenius, my ass.


So reasoned discourse is something you avoid? That would make sense.

You know it is possible to acheive it, People strive everyday to acheive it. You saying that they can't is a shame, a reall shame. When good people do nothing, i think someone used that qoute in here. When good people do nothing, You all think that is a means to take up arms, I think that is a means to stop that very action.

Yes...but arms are needed!

Here are the facts that we have all managed to agree on,

You want to keep the right to carry concealed guns in public, for the reasons of protection from and deterance of crime.

If you are ever in a situation where you might need to use that gun, if it ever turns up tell me.

Of course it has happened to other people, I mean you know a guy who know's a guy right and then there are all your prescious facts they have to be true right.

I know bad things happen but rather then accepting it and arming up I want to try and make it better and if I get killed in the process so be it at least I tried.


I don't personally know anyone who's used CCW. I live in the People's Republic of Illinois that wants to disarm everyone but King Richards' elite.

I do have documented events and state/federal figures that are "facts".

I try and make things better while at the same time wanting to be armed to defend myself and my family. I don't see that they are mutually opposed.

Yes...but arms are needed!


that comment, that sentence right there sum's up i think your entire argument, Right there. Yes...but arms are needed. You have all done your best to tell me why guns are needed to protect yourself, don't you think it's a little sad that you have to protect yourself to the extent that you carry around guns?

I don't personally know anyone who's used CCW. I live in the People's Republic of Illinois that wants to disarm everyone but King Richards' elite.

I do have documented events and state/federal figures that are "facts".

I try and make things better while at the same time wanting to be armed to defend myself and my family. I don't see that they are mutually opposed.

It seems to me that if you want to protect your family, move to canada.

that comment, that sentence right there sum's up i think your entire argument, Right there. Yes...but arms are needed. You have all done your best to tell me why guns are needed to protect yourself, don't you think it's a little sad that you have to protect yourself to the extent that you carry around guns?
No...

that comment, that sentence right there sum's up i think your entire argument, Right there. Yes...but arms are needed. You have all done your best to tell me why guns are needed to protect yourself, don't you think it's a little sad that you have to protect yourself to the extent that you carry around guns?

Yes, I do. However, that is the reality of it. The world is a dangerous place. I try and do what I can to make it better but that doesn't include allowing myself of my family to become victims.

So reasoned discourse is something you avoid? That would make sense.
Well, seeing as you've got the beam on every SubGenii extant, you tell me.

It seems to me that if you want to protect your family, move to canada.

So there's no crime in Canada?

Why should I have to move? I own family land in a house I built myself. Why should I give in to the actions of those who break the law?

Whats subgenii?

Yes, I do. However, that is the reality of it. The world is a dangerous place. I try and do what I can to make it better but that doesn't include allowing myself of my family to become victims.

You want to protect your family, I commend you on feeling this way, but here is one for you scenario lovers, What if that very gun you bought to safe guard your family killed one of them accidently. how would you feel about guns then?

World a dangerous place?

Tired of trying to make it better?

Terrified of your family being victimized?

Don't be knocked insensate - buy a gun and overcompensate!

You'll show them how to scare the shit out of you!

The basic premise backing the conclusion that we need concealed carry laws is self defense.

I argue that there are far better means of self defense: tazers, pepper spray, etc. Not arguing that guns are not effecient let's just take a look at the stats of any war, they work at putting people down.

I feel there are sentiments behind the self defense premise that even I feel. (I enjoy firing guns). I cannot formulate a strong enough arguement to deny conceal carry laws since states require background checks, etc.

Ultimately, we cannot deny that there is a second premise behind self defense. Masculinity or whatever and it is this premise that makes me uncomfortable and doubtful. Not in complete opposition, but very wary.

You want to protect your family, I commend you on feeling this way, but here is one for you scenario lovers, What if that very gun you bought to safe guard your family killed one of them accidently. how would you feel about guns then?


That's why responsible gun owners either have gun cases, trigger locks, or other means to prevent children or others from getting at them.

C'mon now, no responsible gun owner leaves a gun on the kitchen table with kids running around.....

So there's no crime in Canada?

Why should I have to move? I own family land in a house I built myself. Why should I give in to the actions of those who break the law?

Like i said it has come to a point were to protect yourself you ahve to carry around guns. GUNS. If it has gotten that bad what's next, grenades. I know how about the right to drive Armored Assault vehicles, maybe tanks that would protect your family, You woul dnever use it of course.

Like i said it has come to a point were to protect yourself you ahve to carry around guns. GUNS. If it has gotten that bad what's next, grenades?
One word: NAPALM.

Like i said it has come to a point were to protect yourself you ahve to carry around guns. GUNS. If it has gotten that bad what's next, grenades?

This retort contains no gravity what so ever.

Like i said it has come to a point were to protect yourself you ahve to carry around guns. GUNS. If it has gotten that bad what's next, grenades. I know how about the right to drive Armored Assault vehicles, maybe tanks that would protect your family, You woul dnever use it of course.

The slippery slope tactic isn't going to work.

This retort contains no gravity what so ever.
It'd have quite a job containing gravity, what with it being pixels of light on a screen.

Like i said it has come to a point were to protect yourself you ahve to carry around guns. GUNS. If it has gotten that bad what's next, grenades. I know how about the right to drive Armored Assault vehicles, maybe tanks that would protect your family, You woul dnever use it of course.

Slipperly slopes are not strong logical arguements.

Like i said it has come to a point were to protect yourself you ahve to carry around guns. GUNS. If it has gotten that bad what's next, grenades. I know how about the right to drive Armored Assault vehicles, maybe tanks that would protect your family, You woul dnever use it of course.

Nice slippery slope.

My kids are 3 yrs old. I've already started firearm safety w/ them and keep all but one locked up w/ the other out of their reach.

That's why responsible gun owners either have gun cases, trigger locks, or other means to prevent children or others from getting at them.

C'mon now, no responsible gun owner leaves a gun on the kitchen table with kids running around.....

Guess what alot of people would disagree, The fact is children do die because of the parents having a gun in the house and not once were they robbed.

The slippery slope tactic isn't going to work.
Kinda like the slippery slope of total armament bringing safety and security.

Whoops!

I lapsed.

Kinda like the slippery slope of total armament bringing safety and security.



Seems that you're the only one saying that.

okay two things your children are being trained to use weapons and exactly How many guns do you have?

Wow, 2 others pointed out the slippery slope..... lol

Guess what alot of people would disagree, The fact is children do die because of the parents having a gun in the house and not once were they robbed.

Hence why I said 'responsible' gun owners. Those people who lost children to their own guns should not have had them in the first place if they were going to be careless with them.

What? I'm on YOUR side, here. I've been convinced by the persuasive arguments presented that I was wrong, and the only way to achieve total peace and security is to achieve total personal armament.

Sheesh.

My side? I wasn't aware that I'd chosen a side.

Guess what alot of people would disagree, The fact is children do die because of the parents having a gun in the house and not once were they robbed.

The fact is, is that that number has been drastically reduced even though more firearms are in civilian hands now than before.

The fact is is that more children drown in pools than are killed by firearms for any reason.

Like i said it has come to a point were to protect yourself you ahve to carry around guns. GUNS. If it has gotten that bad what's next, grenades. I know how about the right to drive Armored Assault vehicles, maybe tanks that would protect your family, You woul dnever use it of course.
Guns are far more effective than grenades in self defense situations and scenarios here in the USA.

It's all about what is most effective. Guns are the most effective and most efficient today. Assualt vehicles are useless and inefficient and brings far more trouble than it is worth in today's society.

But if things get bad enough, and some tyrant with a army came to conquer the USA and enslave the people, then tanks would be excellent option to protect your family.

But things aren't that bad yet. In today's society, considering today's threats, guns are a practical option, and useful. It is not necessary to mention ineffective, inefficient things like tanks and assault vehicles

okay two things your children are being trained to use weapons and exactly How many guns do you have?


He didn't say USE weapons, he said firearm SAFETY. Such as if you see a gun, tell an adult, don't touch the gun, etc.

I take it you've never been to firearm safety training.....

Wow, 2 others pointed out the slippery slope..... lol

I'm in a very logical mood, not to mention that was just so blatently obvious it hurt my eyes.

Seems that you're the only one saying that.
And what - that makes me wrong?

It's as slippery as an eel. Just 'cause I'm the only one pointing it out doesn't make it any less wet.

okay two things your children are being trained to use weapons and exactly How many guns do you have?

They are being taught how to properly use a tool.

I own 4 rifles, a shotgun, and a handgun.

My wife owns a rifle.

Wow, 2 others pointed out the slippery slope..... lol


Hence why I said 'responsible' gun owners. Those people who lost children to their own guns should not have had them in the first place if they were going to be careless with them.

Okay if you can say that and not even begin to think that this just might be a bad idea, I mean you just admited that maybe some people shouldn't have guns. Now they were people who had guns in there homes, just imagine if they had the ability totake them outside.

And what - that makes me wrong?

It's as slippery as an eel. Just 'cause I'm the only one pointing it out doesn't make it any less wet.

It makes it a strawman. Haven't you beaten him enough today?

And what - that makes me wrong?

It's as slippery as an eel. Just 'cause I'm the only one pointing it out doesn't make it any less wet.
The slippery slope of weapons is only as slippery as the slippery slope of threats out there. If the threats get bad enough, then yes, we should start investing in tanks. But today's threats call for a gun, no more and no less. Right now there is no reason to slip toward outlawing guns and no reason to slip toward legalizing napalm.

They are being taught how to properly use a tool.

I own 4 rifles, a shotgun, and a handgun.

My wife owns a rifle.

again you use that word tool, call it what it is a gun, A system of removing ones life from the mortal coil. I also hope to hell you start showing them what happens when you pull that trigger and I am not just atlking about the "holes"

Okay if you can say that and not even begin to think that this just might be a bad idea, I mean you just admited that maybe some people shouldn't have guns. Now they were people who had guns in there homes, just imagine if they had the ability totake them outside.

And in most states, they would have to go through safety training to carry legally.

I feel that the "pro-conceal carriers" brought their A game to this debate.

It makes it a strawman. Haven't you beaten him enough today?
I call bullshit on that. What a double-standard. If you cry 'slippery slope' it stands, and if I do it, it's 'strawman' time?

I wish it were an effing wickerman. Then I'd burn you on Ostara and sing songs about crops.

Okay if you can say that and not even begin to think that this just might be a bad idea, I mean you just admited that maybe some people shouldn't have guns. Now they were people who had guns in there homes, just imagine if they had the ability totake them outside.


WTF guy, c'mon.....you can't be that dense....

For HOURS now I've stated TIME and TIME again that only RESPONSIBLE people should own guns. I don't know how many times I've stressed respect and responsibility....you'd have to be blind to have missed it.

Of course I think some people shouldn't have guns, I've been saying it in this thread all morning. So here it is once more:

IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE RESPONSIBLE AND RESPECT THE POWER OF A FIREARM, YOU SHOULD NOT OWN ONE.

And in most states, they would have to go through safety training to carry legally.

So do police,

again you use that word tool, call it what it is a gun, A system of removing ones life from the mortal coil. I also hope to hell you start showing them what happens when you pull that trigger.

And a firearm is a tool, a device designed to emit a projectile at high speeds.

I will when they're older. W/ my nephew, the first things I did was show him what a rifle round does to a melon (about the same size as his head) while explaining to him basic safety rules.

WTF guy, c'mon.....you can't be that dense....

For HOURS now I've stated TIME and TIME again that only RESPONSIBLE people should own guns. I don't know how many times I've stressed respect and responsibility....you'd have to be blind to have missed it.

Of course I think some people shouldn't have guns, I've been saying it in this thread all morning. So here it is once more:

IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE RESPONSIBLE AND RESPECT THE POWER OF A FIREARM, YOU SHOULD NOT OWN ONE.

and who makes that call, You. I say no one is RESPONSIBLE enough to own or carry a gun. But we all know my points mean nothing to you.

And a firearm is a tool, a device designed to emit a projectile at high speeds.

I will when they're older. W/ my nephew, the first things I did was show him what a rifle round does to a melon (about the same size as his head) while explaining to him basic safety rules.

Are you in the NRA?

I call bullshit on that. What a double-standard. If you cry 'slippery slope' it stands, and if I do it, it's 'strawman' time?

I wish it were an effing wickerman. Then I'd burn you on Ostara and sing songs about crops.

You've made a slippery slope arguement and then beat it down, making a strawman. That is a double fallacy.

You're spouting a lot of BS, that's true.

So do police,


And so should you.

If you're going to hate guns, you should at least educate yourself on them. Take a firearm safety course.

And a firearm is a tool, a device designed to emit a projectile at high speeds.

I will when they're older. W/ my nephew, the first things I did was show him what a rifle round does to a melon (about the same size as his head) while explaining to him basic safety rules.

A tool, you know the way you keep using that word, it just seems to me like your trying to suger coat it in your own mind.

You've made a slippery slope arguement and then beat it down, making a strawman. That is a double fallacy.

You're spouting a lot of BS, that's true.
http://workingforchange.speedera.net/www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/wfc/TMW03-15-06.jpg
You're really getting boring. See last panel for details.

Are you in the NRA?

Yes. I'm also a member of ISRA, ASPCA, donate to "Reading is Fundamental" and support my local police and firefighters.

You've made a slippery slope arguement and then beat it down, making a strawman. That is a double fallacy.

You're spouting a lot of BS, that's true.

That does seem to be the case.

I'm not seeing a lot of solid evidence against concealed carry. Mind you I came in here agains it too.

http://workingforchange.speedera.net/www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/wfc/TMW03-15-06.jpg
You're really getting boring. See last panel for details.

That's nice. You go on and play now.

A tool, you know the way you keep using that word, it just seems to me like your trying to suger coat it in your own mind.
It is a tool. It can be a tool to hunt animals. It can be a tool to kill in murder. It can be a tool to target-shoot for fun like playind darts or archery. It can be a tool for killing in self defense.

and who makes that call, You. I say no one is RESPONSIBLE enough to own or carry a gun. But we all know my points mean nothing to you.


Then please exit this thread.

A responsible firearm owner is someone who:

Cares for and maintains their weapon
Keeps it out of the reach of others especially children
Does not use their weapon unless there is no other choice
Is not careless with it so that it is a risk to others

This is all common sense stuff that I did not make up. There are plenty of responsible gun owners out there, and if you are going to remain ignorant and assume that there are none, please leave now.

That's nice. You go on and play now.
At least I know how. Grampa.

And so should you.

If you're going to hate guns, you should at least educate yourself on them. Take a firearm safety course.

I have no intentions of ever picking up a gun, You know why, because I don't intend to fight them, I intend to run, If it is just me and him I will run like all buggery. If more people are involved I will tell them to run like all bugery.

A tool, you know the way you keep using that word, it just seems to me like your trying to suger coat it in your own mind.

Sugar coat what? I recognize what a firearm is and what it can do w/o fear of an inanimate object.

It is a tool. It can be a tool to hunt animals. It can be a tool to kill in murder. It can be a tool to target-shoot for fun like playind darts or archery. It can be a tool for killing in self defense.

Don't forget skeet shooting, that's fun!

A firearm is not a weapon. Anything is a weapon if you so intend it to be as such.

Yes AMF. If your not responsible you don't even have the right to own one.

I call bullshit on that. What a double-standard. If you cry 'slippery slope' it stands, and if I do it, it's 'strawman' time?

You're arguing (by satire, but arguing nonetheless) against a position that no one in this thread has taken. That is, by definition, a strawman.

I have no intentions of ever picking up a gun, You know why, because I don't intend to fight them, I intend to run, If it is just me and him I will run like all buggery. If more people are involved I will tell them to run like all bugery.

You can't escape from every siutation mind you, I think that is a given fact and in many cases trying to flee would risk your own life.

They're made to kill. That's it. Were the first firearms made for peaceful purposes? No. What are they frighteningly well designed for? Killing. Something that well-made for a certain purpose shouldn't be called a tool, except perhaps 'killing machine'.

That does seem to be the case.

I'm not seeing a lot of solid evidence against concealed carry. Mind you I came in here agains it too.

There really isn't any. I don't claim that CC "reduces" crime but it certainly doesn't increase it. Most attempts at anti-cc measures use emotional rhetoric like you've seen here or outright lies and lots of abused stats like the VPC or HCI.

I have no intentions of ever picking up a gun, You know why, because I don't intend to fight them, I intend to run, If it is just me and him I will run like all buggery. If more people are involved I will tell them to run like all bugery.


How can you 'fight' something you know nothing about?

If you consider guns your enemy, then wouldn't you want to know everything there is about your enemy? That's the tactic used in warfare, and if you're intent on fighting a 'war on guns', at least educate yourself on them.

You can't escape from every siutation mind you, I think that is a given fact and in many cases trying to flee would risk your own life.


risking my own life what are you talking about. My life is allready at risk.

They're made to kill. That's it. Were the first firearms made for peaceful purposes? No. What are they frighteningly well designed for? Killing. Something that well-made for a certain purpose shouldn't be called a tool, except perhaps 'killing machine'.
It's a tool for killing yes. Nothing inherently wrong with that.

They're made to kill. That's it. Were the first firearms made for peaceful purposes? No. What are they frighteningly well designed for? Killing. Something that well-made for a certain purpose shouldn't be called a tool, except perhaps 'killing machine'.

A weapon is how you use it. A fountian pen for instance.

Sugar coat what? I recognize what a firearm is and what it can do w/o fear of an inanimate object.
But you exploit the fears other people have of an 'inanimate' object, though now don't you?

Oh! So Sorry! If I've said it, it must be a frickin' strawman. Besides, it's not the fear of the gun you're exploiting, right? Not even the fear of the bullet, nor the fear of the bullet penetrating flesh. You're just exploiting people's fear of pain, which is as proud, fine and upstanding as anything American.

You're exploiting fear. A totally secure and safe environment saturated with fear isn't my cup of tea.

How can you 'fight' something you know nothing about?

If you consider guns your enemy, then wouldn't you want to know everything there is about your enemy? That's the tactic used in warfare, and if you're intent on fighting a 'war on guns', at least educate yourself on them.

Guns kill people, they do this by fireing a hunk of lead into the victim, What is there to know, What how to use one safely. The best thing i can do is stay away from one, I wil never point a gun at someone ever, why because I know I could not kill them.

risking my own life what are you talking about. My life is allready at risk.

You're at the ATM and a man puts a knife to your back asking for some money. How in god's name do you intend to escape without either appeasing to the criminal's wants or threatening force (probably not the smarter idea but still better than trying to flee.)

A firearm is not a weapon. Anything is a weapon if you so intend it to be as such.

That's like saying a sword is a tool. Which it isn't.

It's a tool for killing yes. Nothing inherently wrong with that.

There's nothing wrong with something designed to kill? Um...

You're arguing (by satire, but arguing nonetheless) against a position that no one in this thread has taken. That is, by definition, a strawman.
It has been previously remarked that through loosening gun laws even further, gun crime would diminish accordingly.

There's nothing wrong with something designed to kill? Um...

Based on the premise of protection it isn't.

But you exploit the fears other people have of an 'inanimate' object, though now don't you?

Oh! So Sorry! If I've said it, it must be a frickin' strawman. Besides, it's not the fear of the gun you're exploiting, right? Not even the fear of the bullet, nor the fear of the bullet penetrating flesh. You're just exploiting people's fear of pain, which is as proud, fine and upstanding as anything American.

You're exploiting fear. A totally secure and safe environment saturated with fear isn't my cup of tea.

Now that's a red herring.

How am I exploiting fears of an inanimate object? Show me where I did that?

It seems that the ones "exploiting fear" are the ones who are themselves afraid.

There really isn't any. I don't claim that CC "reduces" crime but it certainly doesn't increase it. Most attempts at anti-cc measures use emotional rhetoric like you've seen here or outright lies and lots of abused stats like the VPC or HCI.

I don't state that crime will decrease or increase dependant on whether or not guns are allowed. I say two things, One I think guns should be banned, not because of the stats but because that they kill people, two your mentality to the guns is way to reserved and lax.

Based on the premise of protection it isn't.
Well, medieval shields weren't generally used as weapons. Nor plate armour, for that matter.

You're at the ATM and a man puts a knife to your back asking for some money. How in god's name do you intend to escape without either appeasing to the criminal's wants or threatening force (probably not the smarter idea but still better than trying to flee.)

I give him the money,

Guns kill people, they do this by fireing a hunk of lead into the victim, What is there to know, What how to use one safely. The best thing i can do is stay away from one, I wil never point a gun at someone ever, why because I know I could not kill them.


Then you shouldn't own one. Nobody here is trying to force you to own one.

Guns kill people, they do this by fireing a hunk of lead into the victim, What is there to know, What how to use one safely. The best thing i can do is stay away from one, I wil never point a gun at someone ever, why because I know I could not kill them.

That is a rather basic and biased view. Just go to a safety course, there is a wealth of information you will be given access to. I'm not sure what courses are like where you live, but they should be farily similar to what I took.

Information is power, and if you are intent on this crusade against guns, then inform yourself.

I don't state that crime will decrease or increase dependant on whether or not guns are allowed. I say two things, One I think guns should be banned, not because of the stats but because that they kill people, two your mentality to the guns is way to reserved and lax.

Lots of things kill people. Ban criminals.

My mentality is "way to reserved and lax" on guns? How? Because I emphasize training and support those who follow the law?

Based on the premise of protection it isn't.

They're offensive weapons! Do you think that anyone thought 'You know, we could really discourage the enemy after they;ve attacked us with this...' ?

One I think guns should be banned, not because of the stats but because that they kill people.

Alcohol should be banned because it causes health risks, family violence, and car accidents. Stats show this as true but by banning it, the use actually increased and brought in an era of violence. Same would happen for guns.

If the people want it enough, they'll get it by any means, then we're looking at only the wrong kind of people having guns obtained through a boom in organized crime. In a perfect world I would ban guns, drugs, and war.

Now that's a red herring.

How am I exploiting fears of an inanimate object? Show me where I did that?

It seems that the ones "exploiting fear" are the ones who are themselves afraid.
By extolling the virtues of, and condoning gun ownership as a legitimate means of defense. That's how. You're counting on other people's fear - not, mind you, fear of an "inanimate" object, as you're so bloody fond of referring to those wretched inventions, but the fear other people have of being caused to suffer pain, due to the specific functionality of that particular "inanimate" object.

And stop delivering your annoying one-liner analyses.

That is a rather basic and biased view. Just go to a safety course, there is a wealth of information you will be given access to. I'm not sure what courses are like where you live, but they should be farily similar to what I took.

Information is power, and if you are intent on this crusade against guns, then inform yourself.

gun safety a funny thing that, You all know that they kill right, Not that you might kill someone, just that guns have the ability to kill people, If you do then what the hell is this talk about safety, The only thing you can do with a gun is use it or not use it, The only "safety comes from not using it. If that is the case then i don't even want one, There hows that for gun safety.

They're offensive weapons! Do you think that anyone thought 'You know, we could really discourage the enemy after they;ve attacked us with this...' ?

So are nuclear weapons.

Deterrants do work and simply pointing a gun at another person, not firing, is enough to stop them in their tracks.

You're at the ATM and a man puts a knife to your back asking for some money. How in god's name do you intend to escape without either appeasing to the criminal's wants or threatening force (probably not the smarter idea but still better than trying to flee.)
You Americans are so fucked up over property...

Lots of things kill people. Ban criminals.

My mentality is "way to reserved and lax" on guns? How? Because I emphasize training and support those who follow the law?

no because you trach your children at the age of three, you call them tools and you have way to many of them. You feel no fear from them. You respect them sure but fear is waht you reall need.

By extolling the virtues of, and condoning gun ownership as a legitimate means of defense. That's how. You're counting on other people's fear - not, mind you, fear of an "inanimate" object, as you're so bloody fond of referring to those wretched inventions, but the fear other people have of being caused to suffer pain, due to the specific functionality of that particular "inanimate" object.

No, I'm opposed to criminals who are not inanimate and who cause crimes, many times violent and w/o firearms. Firearm ownership is a legitimate means of defense against them.

And stop delivering your annoying one-liner analyses.

And yet they seem to be surprisingly accurate.

gun safety a funny thing that, You all know that they kill right, Not that you might kill someone, just that guns have the ability to kill people, If you do then what the hell is this talk about safety, The only thing you can do with a gun is use it or not use it, The only "safety comes from not using it. If that is the case then i don't even want one, There hows that for gun safety.


You need to be educated, because your lack of understanding of a firearm other than 'it kills' is sad. Is your life really that hectic that you can't spare an afternoon to take a safety course? You seem to have spent plenty of time on this forum, time that could have been spent educating yourself on firearms. Your limited view on guns is just sad.

Alcohol should be banned because it causes health risks, family violence, and car accidents. Stats show this as true but by banning it, the use actually increased and brought in an era of violence. Same would happen for guns.

If the people want it enough, they'll get it by any means, then we're looking at only the wrong kind of people having guns obtained through a boom in organized crime. In a perfect world I would ban guns, drugs, and war.

you know it's just going to get worse, look at the police, criminals got guns so police got armor vests, criminals brought out armor periceing slugs. If you give guns to the masses it will only get worse.

You Americans are so fucked up over property...

That's just changing the damn subject and not even attempting to address the one at hand.

You have yet to bring a sound arguement to the table other than the word 'tool and in your frustration you're starting to throw straw men, red herring, and slipperly slopes all over the damn place. <-- This is why I'm supporting the conceal carriers.

no because you trach your children at the age of three, you call them tools and you have way to many of them. You feel no fear from them. You respect them sure but fear is waht you reall need.

The only fear I have is going out into the world ignorant, not of an object. I also teach my children not to touch the stove or to stick things in electical sockets. It's called safety.

And yet they seem to be surprisingly accurate.
And you call yourself SubGenius?

Hah.

Hah.

Ha-fucking-hah.

Go tell it to your pinkboy associates.

you know it's just going to get worse, look at the police, criminals got guns so police got armor vests, criminals brought out armor periceing slugs. If you give guns to the masses it will only get worse.

Then why hasn't it happened?

Oh, right, it's a myth.

You have yet to bring a sound arguement to the table other than the word 'tool and in your frustration you're starting to throw straw men, red herring, and slipperly slopes all over the damn place. <-- This is why I'm supporting the conceal carriers.
So, not for any real reason then, other than spite. Nice.

And you call yourself SubGenius?

Hah.

Hah.

Ha-fucking-hah.

Go tell it to your pinkboy associates.

Never called my self a Subgenius. Try again.

You need to be educated, because your lack of understanding of a firearm other than 'it kills' is sad. Is your life really that hectic that you can't spare an afternoon to take a safety course? You seem to have spent plenty of time on this forum, time that could have been spent educating yourself on firearms. Your limited view on guns is just sad.

Dude I know what guns can do, I do know this because I see people shot, on the news, in the papers even online. People get shot, they get hurt and they can die, You want me to learn about gun safety, I am assuming you mean how to se a gun safely right, No thanks.

you know it's just going to get worse, look at the police, criminals got guns so police got armor vests, criminals brought out armor periceing slugs. If you give guns to the masses it will only get worse.

This is more about concealed carry which allows permission to people who have had a background check and whatnot.

There's a difference between petty criminals (ordinary civilians) who have a handgun and at the most a rifle and organized crime which will have good technology regardless of the nation they're invested in.

The only fear I have is going out into the world ignorant, not of an object. I also teach my children not to touch the stove or to stick things in electical sockets. It's called safety.

so a gun equals a stove now.

Dude I know what guns can do, I do know this because I see people shot, on the news, in the papers even online. People get shot, they get hurt and they can die, You want me to learn about gun safety, I am assuming you mean how to se a gun safely right, No thanks.

so if you see that people drown in a swimming pool then you will refuse to learn about swimming safety? What sort of logic...?

So, not for any real reason then, other than spite. Nice.

Those are all illogical arguements, anyone who took the most basic logic and debate course would know this.

You're only still in this arguement out of spite apparently.

Dude I know what guns can do, I do know this because I see people shot, on the news, in the papers even online. People get shot, they get hurt and they can die, You want me to learn about gun safety, I am assuming you mean how to se a gun safely right, No thanks.

and they can die from car accidents as well. Safety does not necessarily include how to use it but it helps.

so if you see that people drown in a swimming pool then you will refuse to learn about swimming safety? What sort of logic...?
STRAW MAN.

He would be within reason to opt not to swim, period.

This is more about concealed carry which allows permission to people who have had a background check and whatnot.

There's a difference between petty criminals (ordinary civilians) who have a handgun and at the most a rifle and organized crime which will have good technology regardless of the nation they're invested in.

What is the mafia doing stealing your tv, They have no reasonto go into your home, They are not your fear, it's those petty criminals who can now get guns quite easily. You know if i was an american and I ahve never commited a crime I could get one of these permits and a gun and hold someone up. Background checks mean nothing they are false security in this day and age.

so a gun equals a stove now.

Nice Red Herring.

It's called safety and education. I teach my kids to be saffe around things that could possibly hurt them. That includes the medicine cabinnete, the stove, knives, firearms, stairs, pools etc.

You're only still in this arguement out of spite apparently.
Which begs the question, "what're you still in it for?". Presumably there's a shortage of nits to pick elsewhere.

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He would be within reason to opt not to swim, period.
He wouldnt be within reason to outlaw swimming for responsible swimmers, and he wouldnt be within reason to outlaw guns for responsible gun owners. He doesn't want to simply "opt out" of an activity, he wants to ban it. Not even giving any interested responsible citizens to learn the rules of safety. Reread the thread if you're feeling lost.

Dude I know what guns can do, I do know this because I see people shot, on the news, in the papers even online. People get shot, they get hurt and they can die, You want me to learn about gun safety, I am assuming you mean how to se a gun safely right, No thanks.

They teach you a lot more than how to use a gun.

Your problem is you are paranoid and have a severe gun-phobia, which is both clouding your judgement and leading to ignorance. If you don't want to educate yourself on guns other than 'they kill people', then don't ever talk about them again. If you're not going to inform yourself on the other spectrums of a firearm besides 'it kills', then you have no right to complain.

You see the news and you feel fear because you don't understand guns. And you always fear what you don't understand. But me, I choose to educate myself and not live in a constant shroud of paranoia and fear like you do.

What is the mafia doing stealing your tv, They have no reasonto go into your home, They are not your fear, it's those petty criminals who can now get guns quite easily. You know if i was an american and I ahve never commited a crime I could get one of these permits and a gun and hold someone up. Background checks mean nothing they are false security in this day and age.

Ah signs of a logical retort woot! :D

Good point.

I think Chris Rock said it best:

"We don't need gun control, we need bullet control... If a bullet cost $5000 dollars, there would be no innocent bystanders"

Amen brother.

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He would be within reason to opt not to swim, period.

Being that he's already stated that he would not learn firearm safety because they kill, it's comparable.

Which begs the question, "what're you still in it for?". Presumably there's a shortage of nits to pick elsewhere.

Because I like logical debates. You know, debates that actually make progress rather then...

You prove me wrong! I hate and spit on you!

BTW, begging the question is also a logical fallacy :p

What is the mafia doing stealing your tv, They have no reasonto go into your home, They are not your fear, it's those petty criminals who can now get guns quite easily. You know if i was an american and I ahve never commited a crime I could get one of these permits and a gun and hold someone up. Background checks mean nothing they are false security in this day and age.

And once they do, they go to jail. I'm not a supporter of 'pre-crime".

so if you see that people drown in a swimming pool then you will refuse to learn about swimming safety? What sort of logic...?

Swimming I know how to do, but if i did'nt i would stay away from the water, If i did learn it would not because I could save some people that might or might not exsist as heartless as that sounds it's true, The only reason why I would learn to swim is so that I myself would not drown. You all might think that I am a heartless son of a bitch, who dosen't care if you live or die, I do care if you live or die, I hope that everyone of you lives to the ripe ol age of 87 with as many grandchildren on your knee as you want, I will not kill a man, I could never kill somebody. No matter what the circumstance are. I will trust my fellow man till the very end. You people are saying that you need guns to feel as safe as i do. You will probably ignore, rearranged or bag my words but this fact will never change. I find it very sad that it has cometo this that you need to go into the world armed and ready for battle, You all state you want to protect your family, that is great but I will never take a life not your familys nor the person trying to rob you.

Swimming I know how to do, but if i did'nt i would stay away from the water, If i did'nt learn it would not because I could save some people that might or might not exsist as heartless as that sounds it's true, The only reason why I would learn to swim is so that I myself would not drown. You all might think that I am a heartless son of a bitch, who dosen't care if you live or die, I do care if you live or die, I hope that everyone of you lives to the ripe ol age of 87 with as many grandchildren on your knee as you want, I will not kill a man, I could never kill somebody. No matter what the circumstance are. I will trust my fellow man till the very end. You people are saying that you need guns to feel as safe as i do. You will probably ignore, rearranged or bag my words but this fact will never change. I find it very sad that it has cometo this that you need to go into the world armed and ready for battle, You all state you want to protect your family, that is great but I will never take a life not your familys nor the person trying to rob you.

And that is your choice and I respect that. What I don't respect is that you are trying to prevent others from defending themselves and their family in the way that they feel best following legal means.

And that is your choice and I respect that. What I don't respect is that you are trying to prevent others from defending themselves and their family in the way that they feel best following legal means.

We all know law has nothing to do with it, I mean in 5 years who know everything could change, What this is about is the fact that everyone here tonight want the right to bear arms in a public place. You actually want it. You want to be able to carry guns around, I just can't understand why. Yes Yes I know protection and deterence, from what is your society so bad that you get mugged every day, that you are on a first term basis with the police department. Insted of allowing people to carry guns why don't you do something about that, You are the most powerful country in the world surley you can do someting about it.

We all know law has nothing to do with it, I mean in 5 years who know everything could change, What this is about is the fact that everyone here tonight want the right to bear arms in a public place. You actually want it. You want to be able to carry guns around, I just can't understand why. Yes Yes I know protection and deterence, from what is your society so bad that you get mugged every day, that you are on a first term basis with the police department. Insted of allowing people to carry guns why don't you do something about that, You are the most powerful country in the world surley you can do someting about it.

The police are a line of defense that is being improved. The fact of the matter is that they can't be everywhere at all times. There have also been a number of court decisions that stated the police are not obligated to protect you.

Even under the best of conditions, it will take the police several minutes to get to you.

so what the other option is here you handle it, You guys should get paid at least then, if your the ones having to clean up the mess, If it take 7 min for the police to get to you surely that can be improved, I mean we have put men on the moon, why can't we make the streets safe at night. We have made cars that can run on air, why can't we make it safe to NOT carry a gun.

so if you see that people drown in a swimming pool then you will refuse to learn about swimming safety? What sort of logic...?

I told you! Logic vampire! Look what he did to Bobs!

We have made cars that can run on air,

What the? did I miss this?

You know it is possible to acheive it, People strive everyday to acheive it. You saying that they can't is a shame, a reall shame.
It's a real shame that it can't be done. If it were possible I would love to live in a world without weapons or violence. So how exactly do we go about creating such a world?

my years of wrong-headedness and silly promulgation of weaponless societies.

Are you under the delusion that Kansas had a "weaponless society" before this law was passed?

Well, seeing as you've got the beam on every SubGenii extant, you tell me.
Yes what is this SubGenius you both speak of?

What if that very gun you bought to safe guard your family killed one of them accidently. how would you feel about guns then?
"Damn, I should have trained them in the responsible use of firearms."

Ultimately, we cannot deny that there is a second premise behind self defense. Masculinity or whatever and it is this premise that makes me uncomfortable and doubtful. Not in complete opposition, but very wary.
I disagree with any "penis-extension" reasons for gun ownership. Women should carry guns. Then rapists wouldn't achieve their goals so often.

Kinda like the slippery slope of total armament bringing safety and security.

Whoops!

I lapsed.
Or the slippery slope of homosexuality leading to beasitality and the decay of society. Or that abortion will lead to eugenics programmes. Slippery slopes are usually wrong and used by authoritarians.

And what - that makes me wrong?

It's as slippery as an eel. Just 'cause I'm the only one pointing it out doesn't make it any less wet.
The eel's slippery texture is caused not by water but by a layer of mucus that covers their skin at all times.

and who makes that call, You. I say no one is RESPONSIBLE enough to own or carry a gun. But we all know my points mean nothing to you.
That's because that particular point is contradicted by reality itself. Most gun owners never do anything harmful with them.

http://workingforchange.speedera.net/www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/wfc/TMW03-15-06.jpg
You're really getting boring. See last panel for details.
You are leading in the nitpicking game, at least in this thread:
Are you a little jealous that I can spell words greater than three syllables in length?
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10630434&postcount=88

I have no intentions of ever picking up a gun, You know why, because I don't intend to fight them, I intend to run, If it is just me and him I will run like all buggery. If more people are involved I will tell them to run like all bugery.
I agree that in some cases running away is the right thing to do, but you might not be in such an ideal situation where running will make the problem go away.

A firearm is not a weapon.
Oh come on now, a firearm is a weapon.

You're just exploiting people's fear of pain, which is as proud, fine and upstanding as anything American.

You're exploiting fear. A totally secure and safe environment saturated with fear isn't my cup of tea.
I assume you don't keep any screwdrivers, kitchen knives in your home?

And if you do, you certainly wouldn't tell children to either not touch them or be careful with them? Cos that would be exploiting fear.

In terms of self-defence, I have no problems with exploiting an aggressive assailant's fear of pain.

It has been previously remarked that through loosening gun laws even further, gun crime would diminish accordingly.
No, not even that has been argued.

By extolling the virtues of, and condoning gun ownership as a legitimate means of defense. That's how. You're counting on other people's fear - not, mind you, fear of an "inanimate" object, as you're so bloody fond of referring to those wretched inventions, but the fear other people have of being caused to suffer pain, due to the specific functionality of that particular "inanimate" object.
All the shouting and screaming about how immoral and evil guns are reminds me of right-wing religious lunacy. Good thing that laws aren't based on that.

STRAW MAN.

He would be within reason to opt not to swim, period.
It's not so much a strawman as a logically flawed analogy.

What the? did I miss this?

one form of it is the hydrogen car the other is one that runs on compressed air. Another version has an engine that is roughly 2kg (no idea in pounds) that runs for 2 hrs on a fuel tank of air and can move large amounts. We can acheive anything if we put our minds to it. So why can't we solve this problem?

Yes what is this SubGenius you both speak of?




Here ya go:

http://www.subgenius.com/

Well I guess that's it then, Nothing will stop you guys, You will have your guns no matter what, At least I feel better knowing there is alot of water between you and me, Not that i think your all madmen any out to kill people, I just think that this will lead to something bad, maybe not for you, maybe not for anyone you know, But for someone out there things will go wrong and you will all make a big deal about it, Your country is rotting from the inside and I hope you realise this in time to save it.

But for me I wish you all good luck and so forth and may you live to be 87.

Good bye.

one form of it is the hydrogen car the other is one that runs on compressed air. Another version has an engine that is roughly 2kg (no idea in pounds) that runs for 2 hrs on a fuel tank of air and can move large amounts. We can acheive anything if we put our minds to it. So why can't we solve this problem?

Okay, how about this---we train everyone over 18 to be a police officer. Then there will always be a cop around when you need one.

Or we develop personal force shields that automatically activate whenever someone points a gun or knife in your direction, keeping us all safe.

Or we have Judge Dredd patrolling the streets, ready to execute anyone who breaks the law. No more criminals, no more crime.

Or we have a mandatory curfew. And if you need something at night, the police will do your shopping and bring you your groceries.

Why can't we solve the problem of bad guys who want to break into occupied homes and kill, rob and rape the inhabitants thereof, before the police arrive if anyone calls them at all? Because we don't want to live in a police state, that's why.

Okay, how about this---we train everyone over 18 to be a police officer. Then there will always be a cop around when you need one.

Or we develop personal force shields that automatically activate whenever someone points a gun or knife in your direction, keeping us all safe.

Or we have Judge Dredd patrolling the streets, ready to execute anyone who breaks the law. No more criminals, no more crime.

Or we have a mandatory curfew. And if you need something at night, the police will do your shopping and bring you your groceries.

Why can't we solve the problem of bad guys who want to break into occupied homes and kill, rob and rape the inhabitants thereof, before the police arrive if anyone calls them at all? Because we don't want to live in a police state, that's why.
That second one actually sounds like a good idea.

a gun is one thing it cannot change it cannot be a tool and a weapon. it can only be one of them. It is indeed a weapon, not amount of argument will cahnge this fact. It kills, it's sole purpose is killing in fact it is the pinnicle of hundreds of thousands of years of killing and you want to carry it around day to day?
Weapons are tools.
Weapons are tools.
Weapons are tools.
They have been since they (both the items and terms) were created.

Holy FSM, get a damn dictionary and learn the english language.

I have no intentions of ever picking up a gun, You know why, because I don't intend to fight them, I intend to run, If it is just me and him I will run like all buggery. If more people are involved I will tell them to run like all bugery.
And if you're cornered?

Well I guess that's it then, Nothing will stop you guys, You will have your guns no matter what, At least I feel better knowing there is alot of water between you and me, Not that i think your all madmen any out to kill people, I just think that this will lead to something bad, maybe not for you, maybe not for anyone you know, But for someone out there things will go wrong and you will all make a big deal about it, Your country is rotting from the inside and I hope you realise this in time to save it.

But for me I wish you all good luck and so forth and may you live to be 87.

Good bye.
87, bah, I'm hoping for these up and coming medical advancements. I hope to live to twice that age. I want to see what the future holds.

And BTW. The rotting has more to do with corrupt politicians and people wanting to control our actions than guns.

You Americans are so fucked up over property...

incredible... And I was thinking you wouldnt top your large red print today...

I'm 32, have a bad knee (due to a slip & fall), and am overweight. As such, I can't run well. I do like sports and competing, though. My roommate and I recently took the NRA pistol course (actually, it was on Monday), and I had a lot of fun. The gun club the course was at, has lots of land for firearms sports. They have trap shooting competitions (shooting clay pigeons with shotguns), bowling pin competitions (shooting bowling pins with pistols), and various other target competitions. In order for me to buy and carry a pistol to this range however, my state requires that I have a concealed carry pistol permit. That's why I want one, not because I have some insecurity about myself or my safety (although if I was carrying it and my life was threatened, I would use it to defend myself).

To everyone who thinks that handguns should be banned, how do you propose to get them out of the hands of criminals? How do you propose to prevent people from making their own (it's not as hard as you might think, if you know how)?

I know it's a bit belated now, but I was wondering if the starter of this thread could tell me whether "woot" is some kind've whoop of joy or whether it's a phonemically spelled "what" to indicate dismay.

I know it's a bit belated now, but I was wondering if the starter of this thread could tell me whether "woot" is some kind've whoop of joy or whether it's a phonemically spelled "what" to indicate dismay.

Judging by the OP's later posts on the subject, it's probably closer to a whoop of joy. :)

Judging by the OP's later posts on the subject, it's probably closer to a whoop of joy. :)

Okay, thanks.

Looks like I missed most of the fun, oh well...

Looks like no one could tackle my arguement? I figured as such...

The thing is, total gun control does not work. All the statictics in the world can't cover the fact that with these draconian measures people are loosing 1000's of dollars worth of property because of the criminals. Lets look at it this way, when a criminal kills someone they might get 20-30 years then get put out on parole. Because of this, criminals don't have much to fear. They get ok life in prison and get taken care of. Basically it is a slap on the wrist while the family has to cope with the loss of a loved one, and the loss of support from the love one. This is the key problem with the system in the US. How about we punish the criminals people! This left wing BS blaming everyone but the criminal has got to end if we are going to reduce the crime. All you are doing with gun control is attempting to cure the flu with cough syrup.

...Unfortunantly as I have noticed in this thread some people hate guns so much that they will clamp on any reason what so ever to get them banned regardless of how irrational it may be.

Looks like no one could tackle my arguement? I figured as such...
What was it again? I had to leave part way through as well, and I completely lost what was going on by time I got back. :p

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4845726.stm

87, bah, I'm hoping for these up and coming medical advancements. I hope to live to twice that age. I want to see what the future holds.

And BTW. The rotting has more to do with corrupt politicians and people wanting to control our actions than guns.


Exactly! Everyone wants to make thier own vision of America and with this, they want to ban the things they hate. Because of this our freedoms are being eatten away because people can't let stuff go. It is a sad reality.

Same, you can find it on page four or here....

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10444267&postcount=66

Same, you can find it on page four or here....

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10444267&postcount=66
Ah, ok. I actually have nothing against properly licenced and secured guns being kept for recreational purposes alone, so I can't really argue your point.

Ah, ok. I actually have nothing against properly licenced and secured guns being kept for recreational purposes alone, so I can't really argue your point.

Yeah, that is exactly what all but one of my guns was for. They are safely stored away and only taken out once a month for cleaning or taken to the range. This is what the majority of gun owners in the US do. That is why you get such a stiff arguement when a gun topic is up as many of us here are into it for the hobby aspect rather than the self defence aspect. The most offencive part is there are those out there wanting to take private citizens property away (guns are not cheap, my collection runs in the 1000's and other's I know run in the 10,000-100,000 ranges) instead of dealing with the real issue. This scapegoating is simply unacceptable.

I'm curious as to why people seem to think that they should be able to tell me what I can and cannot own.
Furthermore, they seem rather hell-bent on telling me that because some fuckheads have killed/will kill people (an action they can and will continue, regardless of what's available), that I, someone who's a strict adherent to gun safety (and hasn't even been in a fight in his life) should be restricted the right to own and use a legitimate tool.
This "holier-than-thou", "I know what's best for you" shit is personally insulting.

Tell me why my freedoms should be restricted?


it's for the children dont you know.

i think that some people are in some cases,raised in an enviroment where they are safe and sound,coddled if you will.
they also in most cases(the few i am speaking of)also have tremendous guilt for their good fortune.
thay also do not understand any other reality,which is understandable,and rightly are afraid of guns and dont understand why on earth anyone would need one...they never did.
they also are sometimes the same ones that blame society(though partly true) for the behaviour of crimminals,and again i think that some feel guilt that they have had it good and safe and it is not fair the way society treated(created?) the crimminal.

that said,i agree with you.
why does someone have the right to tell me what i can own?
can i dictate what someone owns if i dissagree with it?

if i do something criminal or hurt someone from my bad decision...i should be punished.

i do not agree with premptive punishment....like in texas..the cops are going undercover to bars to find...and arrest...drunk people..cause they might drive...lol
what if you were planning on taking a taxi..or walking...same mentality.

some folks also want to be protected by the (nanny)state and they are truly fearful of guns,because they are afraid of them,dont realise that 99.9% of gunowners would dread having to shoot someone...
so it is simpler to have the state protect you,and everyone else disarmed.

great idea,except it ignores reality...period.(like the fact that the state..ie..police has zero duty to protect individuals..see supreme court rulings,only to protect community)
thats only one small point.

thank you very much,i prefer to protect myself and not rely on the cops(who usually perform after the fact investigations)

if you can promise me i will have round the clock safety..and not be repressed by the cops that are assigned to protect me..i will gladly take my hunting guns to a secure storage facility and get them only for target shooting(i gave up hunting as i can go buy food from the store..for now).and give up my defensive guns...

other then that scenario..like the poster i replied too...who gives you the right to say i cant own something that i would never in a million years use to hurt anyone?
and if so...can i then dictate what you own...