NationStates Jolt Archive

I was wondering, do you people think that Catholics worship saints?

I was wondering, do you people think that Catholics worship saints?
Venerate, not worship.

I was wondering, do you people think that Catholics worship saints?
The late Jesussaves did. He claimed that Catholics worship the pope, mary and the saints in their "pagan voodoo rituals".

Yes, they do, but they call it "veneration" instead of "worship," fooling only themselves.

I know a lot of places where Catholicism was introduced by missionaries there is a lot of Saint worship. Mostly to give different names to Gods they already believed in.

I know a lot of places where Catholicism was introduced by missionaries there is a lot of Saint worship. Mostly to give different names to Gods they already believed in.

Thats just called 'Christianity' :D

Yes, this one:
http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/s/santo.jpg
Santo, el enmascarado de plata.

Yes, this one:
http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/s/santo.jpg
Santo, el enmascarado de plata.
Why do Mexican wrestlers wear masks? I never understood that.

Thats just called 'Christianity' :D
Catholicism, as a sect of Christianity, was involved in it.

Catholicism, as a sect of Christianity, was involved in it.

No shit.

No shit.
OK... I was confused by your comment then.

Why do Mexican wrestlers wear masks? I never understood that.
Wrestlin in Mexico is an allegory for the fight between good and evil (well, I guess in most places) and the mask is part of the characterization. It's comes from the native's representations of struggles between natural forces, they use masks in those too.

Wrestlin in Mexico is an allegory for the fight between good and evil (well, I guess in most places) and the mask is part of the characterization. It's comes from the native's representations of struggles between natural forces, they use masks in those too.
Interesting.

Wrestlin in Mexico is an allegory for the fight between good and evil (well, I guess in most places) and the mask is part of the characterization. It's comes from the native's representations of struggles between natural forces, they use masks in those too.

...not cause they're ugly then....

I was wondering, do you people think that Catholics worship saints?

No, just show respect and, yeah, agree, venerate.

...not cause they're ugly then....
That's just a bonus, but not always the main reason.

Yes, they do, but they call it "veneration" instead of "worship," fooling only themselves.

No, I take offense to that. We don't hold saints in the same regard as God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, all considered to be one and three entities at the same time, the nature of the Holy trinity is not understood by mortals. Saints we see as people who have come close to God because of the sacrifices they made themselves to bring themselves and other closer to God. We don't 'worship' them in any way, but we do pay our respects in different ways. As an Irish person, I celebrate St. Patricks Day not because he's a saint, but because of what he did for Ireland and the Irish people. There are many, many legends based around him, about how he rid the island of the devil and chased the snakes away and all that stuff, cool stories though. Yes, in general we pray to the saints, we consider them a gateway to God, as a favour from God asked for by a saint is more likely to happen than if it came from a regular joe. Different saints help in differnt ways.

I'm not very religious, but I do believe in a higher power. Maybe the saints hold no more sway in the afterlife than any of the rest of us do, but it's part of our belief system, and I don't knock any one elses, so please don't knock mine

Yes, they do, but they call it "veneration" instead of "worship," fooling only themselves.

You seem awfully certain. How long have you been with the Catholic Church?

Yes, they do, but they call it "veneration" instead of "worship," fooling only themselves.
"We don't know big words like 'veneration' so we are just going to take it to mean 'worship' and chastise the Catholics for it."

No, I take offense to that. We don't hold saints in the same regard as God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, all considered to be one and three entities at the same time, the nature of the Holy trinity is not understood by mortals. Saints we see as people who have come close to God because of the sacrifices they made themselves to bring themselves and other closer to God. We don't 'worship' them in any way, but we do pay our respects in different ways. As an Irish person, I celebrate St. Patricks Day not because he's a saint, but because of what he did for Ireland and the Irish people. There are many, many legends based around him, about how he rid the island of the devil and chased the snakes away and all that stuff, cool stories though. Yes, in general we pray to the saints, we consider them a gateway to God, as a favour from God asked for by a saint is more likely to happen than if it came from a regular joe. Different saints help in differnt ways.

I'm not very religious, but I do believe in a higher power. Maybe the saints hold no more sway in the afterlife than any of the rest of us do, but it's part of our belief system, and I don't knock any one elses, so please don't knock mine

As I said, fooling only themselves. Not to mention that whole lark about needing proxies to talk to God...

"We don't know big words like 'veneration' so we are just going to take it to mean 'worship' and chastise the Catholics for it."

Just 'cause "veneration" is a big word to you, doesn't mean the rest of us failed basic English.

As I said, fooling only themselves. Not to mention that whole lark about needing proxies to talk to God...
Oh, I see. So the church that you don't worship at is Protestant?
They no more "worship" saints by merit of being Catholics then you "worship" your professors by merit of being a medical student.

Just 'cause "veneration" is a big word to you, doesn't mean the rest of us failed basic English.
I'm not the one pretending it means worship.
How long have you been Catholic?
How many Catholic services have you been to?

No, I take offense to that. We don't hold saints in the same regard as God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, all considered to be one and three entities at the same time, the nature of the Holy trinity is not understood by mortals. Saints we see as people who have come close to God because of the sacrifices they made themselves to bring themselves and other closer to God. We don't 'worship' them in any way, but we do pay our respects in different ways. As an Irish person, I celebrate St. Patricks Day not because he's a saint, but because of what he did for Ireland and the Irish people. There are many, many legends based around him, about how he rid the island of the devil and chased the snakes away and all that stuff, cool stories though. Yes, in general we pray to the saints, we consider them a gateway to God, as a favour from God asked for by a saint is more likely to happen than if it came from a regular joe. Different saints help in differnt ways.


Coming from a part of Bavaria where a very, very conservative kind of catholicism perpetrated, I must contradict you in parts.
Sure, the word used here also is veneration, but in practice, it heavily borders on worship, especially the cult around Mary. People pray to her (and other saints) for certain favours, offering and bringing 'sacrifices' in turn - not sheep or something, but donations to the church and and 'picture tablets' (couldn´t find an approbiate translation for 'Votivtafel', sorry). Masses are given to honour saints & martyrs, and, repeating myself, Mary is 'venerated' to the extreme - ironically, mostly so by old, bitter and suspectedly virgin women.;) ;)

Fass: As I said, fooling only themselves. Not to mention that whole lark about needing proxies to talk to God...

We're not fooling ourselves because we know what we're doing. People who don't should either study the matter or ask somebody that would know instead of making comments that may not be true and can be held in umbrage. People don't listen; and this is not limited to this alone: very few politicians listen to the opposing party's view on the issue, thus rendering them ignorant of other options or means. A lot of hatred and anger could be removed from the world if there was more listening and studying rather than playing Aristotle.

i think fass has a chip on his shoulder about the catholic church.

Mary is 'venerated' to the extreme - ironically, mostly so by old, bitter and suspectedly virgin women.;) ;)

Well, that is the point that seperates Catholic and Protestant. Mary.

The 'Mother of God' usually gets a high pedastel in Catholic areas- high, not too high. ;)

To the OP: It depends on what time of the year it is in Latin America. Somedays, one can give offerings and such to the Saints. Other days, the Father cleans out the church, like on holy days, when the house of worship has gotta be 100% Catholic and in God's favor lest the parish be smited and the white man come forth again.

Coming from a part of Bavaria where a very, very conservative kind of catholicism perpetrated, I must contradict you in parts.
Sure, the word used here also is veneration, but in practice, it heavily borders on worship, especially the cult around Mary. People pray to her (and other saints) for certain favours, offering and bringing 'sacrifices' in turn - not sheep or something, but donations to the church and and 'picture tablets' (couldn´t find an approbiate translation for 'Votivtafel', sorry). Masses are given to honour saints & martyrs, and, repeating myself, Mary is 'venerated' to the extreme - ironically, mostly so by old, bitter and suspectedly virgin women.;) ;)
Mary is a unique situation and should be considered separate from saints, especially in this discussion.

Mary is a unique situation and should be considered separate from saints, especially in this discussion.
I disagree. She's a Saint by all definitions. Sure, she's the mother of God, and is claimed to be a virgin at the time of Jesus' birth, but that's all she's got other than being a loyal disciple to Christ. Still, she's a Saint.

Righteous Munchee-Love seems to be biased in my opinion. However, I grew up as a Lutheran but got my first communion in a Catholic church. Whoops.

I disagree. She's a Saint by all definitions. Sure, she's the mother of God, and is claimed to be a virgin at the time of Jesus' birth, but that's all she's got other than being a loyal disciple to Christ. Still, she's a Saint.

Righteous Munchee-Love seems to be biased in my opinion. However, I grew up as a Lutheran but got my first communion in a Catholic church. Whoops.
Yes and no. She is considered higher than the saints and I never recall here being referred to as St. Mary. This topic is not about Mary worship, it is about saint worship, and as such, Mary should be left out of the discussion to keep it fair and relevant.

She is considered higher than the saints and I never recall here being referred to as St. Mary.
Not according to the Catholic Chruch (http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=4967). She's a saint. But not in the Saint way, of course. You win this one.

I'm not the one pretending it means worship.

No, you're just the one who thinks using a different term somehow makes it something other than what it is: Idolatry.

How long have you been Catholic?

How long have you been under the impression that one needs to be something to see what it's about?

How many Catholic services have you been to?

Oh, about 20. I have an aunt who married a Catholic. Needless to say, they bred like rabbits, as they bought all that crap about every sperm being sacred. Their children, my cousins, in turn did things in church, like communion and pointless ass-kissing of Mary despite the obviousness of the first and second commandments, which we of course had to attend because we're family. Fortunately, most of my cousins ended up healthily secular and I no longer have to observe the charade.

Yes and no. She is considered higher than the saints and I never recall here being referred to as St. Mary. This topic is not about Mary worship, it is about saint worship, and as such, Mary should be left out of the discussion to keep it fair and relevant.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-52,GGLG:en&q=st%2E+mary

is that magdalene(sp) or Jesus' mom :P

No, you're just the one who thinks using a different term somehow makes it something other than what it is: Idolatry.
I'm sorry that you don't understand the fact that even subtle differences in things make them entirely different.


How long have you been under the impression that one needs to be something to see what it's about?
The same amount of time you have been under the delusion that you can fully understand the innerworkings of religion without being a member.



Oh, about 20. I have an aunt who married a Catholic. Needless to say, they bred like rabbits, as they bought all that crap about every sperm being sacred. Their children, my cousins, in turn did things in church, like communion and pointless ass-kissing of Mary despite the obviousness of the first and second commandments, which we of course had to attend because we're family. Fortunately, most of my cousins ended up healthily secular and I no longer have to observe the charade.
Because outside observation of anecdotal evidence is proof.

Before we concern ourselves with definitions of worship, veneration etc., let's look at what Catholics do with regards to the saints.

1. We honor them.

2. We try to be more like them.

3. We pray to them.

Now, 1 and 2 are entirely reasonable things to do, since we see the saints as very good people. The question is this: Does the third action, praying to the saints, qualify as worship? I don't think that it does, because the way we pray to the saints is entirely different from the way we pray to God. When we pray to the saints, we pray for intercession; that is we ask them to pray to God on our behalf. This is precisely the same as a Protestant going to her/his pastor to ask prayers. I suppose that one aspect that might be confusing some people is the necessity of this intercession. Just as a protestant would say that it is unnecessary to ask for the intercession of her/his pastor, a Catholic (if she/he is well educated in her/his faith) would tell you that it is not necessary to seek the intercession of saints. We believe that a person can pray directly to God without intercession. In fact the Our Father, which we say at every Mass, is addressed to God the Father, himself. If it isn't necessary to seek the intercession of saints, then why do we do it? I honestly don't know. Why would protestants seek the intercession of their pastors if it is unnecessary?

In response to this comment:
I know a lot of places where Catholicism was introduced by missionaries there is a lot of Saint worship. Mostly to give different names to Gods they already believed in.
It probably is more true of Catholics then it is of other denominations. We go for quantity not quality.

is that magdalene(sp) or Jesus' mom :P
There's countless Saint Marys. I don't know.

I'm sorry that you don't understand the fact that even subtle differences in things make them entirely different.

If by "subtle differences," you mean "lalalalala, it's not idolatry, it's not! I just like looking at the pictures of the holy people who grant me wishes and to have idols of them which I pray to," then sure.

The same amount of time you have been under the delusion that you can fully understand the innerworkings of religion without being a member.

As I said: fooling no one but themselves. I'm not a member, so I'm not fooled.

Because outside observation of anecdotal evidence is proof.

Yeah, because Catholicism is as closed to observance as Scientology is, and we can't possibly understand what a scam the latter is, so how could we the former?

I was raised Catholic. When I pray, I pray to god, directly. Not Jesus, GOD. I dont ever recall being taught to go through an intermediate to get to Him.

If by "subtle differences," you mean "lalalalala, it's not idolatry, it's not! I just like looking at the pictures of the holy people who grant me wishes and to have idols of them which I pray to," then sure.



It's not the holy people that may or may not grant the "wishes," it's the Lord that they talk to on our behalf.
If we've been good, that is.;)

Righteous Munchee-Love seems to be biased in my opinion.

If you mean against the catholic (or any other) church, then yes.

[QUOTE=]She is considered higher than the saints and I never recall here being referred to as St. Mary.[QUOTE]

On the contrary, she frequently is referred to 'Holy Mary' or '~, mother of god' etc. Of course, I can only speak about that special branch of catholicism I grew up with, i.e. the ultra-papist, traditional/ fossilized Bavarian-Italian kind. Btw, the current pope comes from around here, too, watch him closely.

In the Eastern Orthodox Church we also venerate the Saints. When we pray to the saints, it is viewed as being no different then me going to another person in the church and asking them to pray for me. As for the veneration of Icons I would like to know how many of you have ever kissed the picture of a loved one.

Yeah, because Catholicism is as closed to observance as Scientology is, and we can't possibly understand what a scam the latter is, so how could we the former?

Have you ever gone to a Catholic service and paid attention to what was going on. I am sure that if you asked some one would explain things to you.

I think that the Catholics do spend a bit too much time on the saints and the church. But they make up for it in being a lot more devout than most Protestants.

If you mean against the catholic (or any other) church, then yes.
That's what I thought. Your word choice gave you away. ;)
Yes, its common to make offerings to Saints. Something left over from the pagan era, like Christmas. Despite all of the offerings, God is the one who handles all of the questions with a range of including and limited to: A) No, games on. B) Maybe later. I can't decide even though I know all. C) Yes, why not, I'm all powerful. Expecting help from Saints is rather pointless. Where did they get thier will from anyhow? Other Saints? :p

I was raised Catholic. When I pray, I pray to god, directly. Not Jesus, GOD. I dont ever recall being taught to go through an intermediate to get to Him.
It would be weird if Jesus died to become a Secretary.

Saints are not worshipped, they are petitioned as intermediaries to pray to god on your behalf. Its like asking for someone to put in a good word for you. The common petition to Saints around Easter has the oft-repeated chorus "pray for us". The Church on earth asks the Saints in heaven to pray for them as we would pray for our friends and family.

As examples of piety and virtue, its thought that Saints hold a special place and that their prayers on your behalf will be helpful.

Theologically, praying directly to a saint would be idolatry. The thing with Mary, and the Marian cult is another matter entirely - but praying directly to Mary is also a theological no-no.

/is a lapsed Catholic
//presently an atheist

Coming from a part of Bavaria where a very, very conservative kind of catholicism perpetrated, I must contradict you in parts.
Sure, the word used here also is veneration, but in practice, it heavily borders on worship, especially the cult around Mary. People pray to her (and other saints) for certain favours, offering and bringing 'sacrifices' in turn - not sheep or something, but donations to the church and and 'picture tablets' (couldn´t find an approbiate translation for 'Votivtafel', sorry). Masses are given to honour saints & martyrs, and, repeating myself, Mary is 'venerated' to the extreme - ironically, mostly so by old, bitter and suspectedly virgin women.;) ;)

I whole heartedly agree with you on the subject of Mary. We were taught that she was the only person ever born without the stain of original sin on her soul, and was therefore taken, body and soul, to Heaven when she died. In Ireland, she's a step above saints, and is therefore 'worshipped', although in a different way to God. Saints are different, they were normal people who devoted their lives to go, and are considered great, but not infallible, and therefore not 'worshipped' in the strictest sense of the word. We have a profound respect for them, but not to the point of worship.

Have you ever gone to a Catholic service and paid attention to what was going on.

Learn to read threads before posting to them. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10625957&postcount=33)

I was wondering, do you people think that Catholics worship saints?

I am a Catholic, and I KNOW for certain that we do not worship saints. We venerate their holiness and acts in life much as people have role-models and heroes. It is as ridiculous to say that Catholics worship saints as to say physicists worship Albert Einstein.

Learn to read threads before posting to them. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10625957&postcount=33)

Well, going to church and actually paying attention to what is being said nd done can be counted at two completely different things. I've been to classes at college, I can tell you that I've done a course in such and such, doesn't mean I know what the hell went on in that class. Maybe that's what Dramkie meant

I am a Catholic, and I KNOW for certain that we do not worship saints. We venerate their holiness and acts in life much as people have role-models and heroes. It is as ridiculous to say that Catholics worship saints as to say physicists worship Albert Einstein.

LOL, I'm both!

If by "subtle differences," you mean "lalalalala, it's not idolatry, it's not! I just like looking at the pictures of the holy people who grant me wishes and to have idols of them which I pray to," then sure.
Which serves to prove the point, you have no room to criticise the inner workings of a religion if you are not familiar with it. You know shit about the Catholic church yet sit there in righteous judgment.


As I said: fooling no one but themselves. I'm not a member, so I'm not fooled.
Don't mistake not being fooled for being ignorant and stubborn.


Yeah, because Catholicism is as closed to observance as Scientology is, and we can't possibly understand what a scam the latter is, so how could we the former?
Yes, because we all know in Catholicism, like Scientology, you have to pay to access the higher parts of the religion and its history and beliefs are highly guarded secrets.


This discussion, like all others that complain about something, addresses trivial problems with the subject of complaint, and only ignorantly, then completely ignores any real problem.

Well, going to church and actually paying attention to what is being said nd done can be counted at two completely different things. I've been to classes at college, I can tell you that I've done a course in such and such, doesn't mean I know what the hell went on in that class. Maybe that's what Dramkie meant

Yes that is what I ment. sorry for not being more specific.

Well, going to church and actually paying attention to what is being said nd done can be counted at two completely different things. I've been to classes at college, I can tell you that I've done a course in such and such, doesn't mean I know what the hell went on in that class. Maybe that's what Dramkie meant

Of course he did, because the only way to understand a cult is to buy the cultists' claims. As long as you do not, "you haven't paid attention." :rolleyes:

I whole heartedly agree with you on the subject of Mary. We were taught that she was the only person ever born without the stain of original sin on her soul, and was therefore taken, body and soul, to Heaven when she died. In Ireland, she's a step above saints, and is therefore 'worshipped', although in a different way to God. Saints are different, they were normal people who devoted their lives to go, and are considered great, but not infallible, and therefore not 'worshipped' in the strictest sense of the word. We have a profound respect for them, but not to the point of worship.
True, we do believe that Mary was conceived without original sin, but so were Adam and Eve. Furthermore, her Immaculate Conception was an act of the Holy Spirit, so like the other saints, any power or grace attributed to Mary came to her originally from God. This is entirely different from worship, because imho one cannot label an act as worship if the actor believes that all of the powers and graces of the actee originate from another agent. Of course, this is only a description of what Catholics should do and what we should believe. So, while the Church certainly does not support worship of the saints, I believe that it is true that there are some Catholics that take veneration too far.

True, we do believe that Mary was conceived without original sin, but so were Adam and Eve.
The person you quoted said "the only person born without original sin," or something to that effect, which Adam and Eve were not, as they don't have navels.

Which serves to prove the point, you have no room to criticise the inner workings of a religion if you are not familiar with it. You know shit about the Catholic church yet sit there in righteous judgment.

Of course, if "not knowing shit," is a euphemism for not buying the version the followers want to project.

Don't mistake not being fooled for being ignorant and stubborn.

"You can't understand it until you buy my claims!"

Yes, because we all know in Catholicism, like Scientology, you have to pay to access the higher parts of the religion and its history and beliefs are highly guarded secrets.

Oh, that actually used to be the case. Or did you miss what precipitated the Reformation? You had to pay your way into heaven, and Bibles had to be in a dead tongue, and the church just excommunicated you if you shared the secrets with the commoners.

But the point: Just 'cause I haven't paid Hubbard's little henchmen money, doesn't mean I don't know that Xenu is ridiculous. And I know that despite their guarding their secrets so litigiously, but somehow, I cannot understand the silliness of the Catholic Church, despite their later openness about it.

This discussion, like all others that complain about something, addresses trivial problems with the subject of complaint, and only ignorantly, then completely ignores any real problem.

Oh, the irony.

Of course he did, because the only way to understand a cult is to buy the cultists' claims. As long as you do not, "you haven't paid attention." :rolleyes:
Yes, with any religious group your are going to have to initially accept their assumptions as fact inorder to understand their logic. If you keep approching the issue using your logic with your engrained assumptions you're never going to be able to understand them there by making the entire agrument void.

Yes, with any religious group your are going to have to initially accept their assumptions as fact inorder to understand their logic. If you keep approching the issue using your logic with your engrained assumptions you're never going to be able to understand them there by making the entire agrument void.

So I have to be fooled in order to see that they're fooled? And you were talking about logic...

So I have to be fooled in order to see that they're fooled? And you were talking about logic...
I am not saying that you need to be fooled. I am saying that without a shared basic understanding of the beliefs in question it is impossible to attempt to have a debate over the issues (Similar to a White-hat trying to explain IT security to a luddite). Thus the debate is voided by each side bringing up proof and support that the other will categorically deny as pure BS.

The person you quoted said "the only person born without original sin," or something to that effect, which Adam and Eve were not, as they don't have navels.
True. Anyway, the same idea applies, except rather than being born without original sin they were cloned (made in God's image) as such.

Of course, if "not knowing shit," is a euphemism for not buying the version the followers want to project.

"You can't understand it until you buy my claims!"

Ok, then you tell me what you know the Catholic church believes.


Oh, that actually used to be the case. Or did you miss what precipitated the Reformation?
You had to pay your way into heaven, and Bibles had to be in a dead tongue, and the church just excommunicated you if you shared the secrets with the commoners.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize it was the 1500s.


But the point: Just 'cause I haven't paid Hubbard's little henchmen money, doesn't mean I don't know that Xenu is ridiculous.
Not even relevant to this discussion. This discussion is about whether or not the Catholics worship their saints, it has nothing to do with their belief system.

Oh, the irony.
You know nothing about the religion and thusly sit here discussing trivial problems with the religion solely in the context of your opinions, not the religion as a whole. I know the religion and could make this topic look like an introduction to what I could write up.

True. Anyway, the same idea applies, except rather than being born without original sin they were cloned (made in God's image) as such.
Cloning?
I always thought it had something to do with dirt, breath, and a rib. ;)

I was wondering, do you people think that Catholics worship saints?

No.

Regarding other issues raised, the Old Testement is seen as a history of spiritual development culminating in the arrival of Jesus.

Perhaps I should elaborate, but if you are interested why not ask a Priest rather than us?

Perhaps I should elaborate, but if you are interested why not ask a Priest rather than us?
Hah! Something that I used to say. :)

No, I take offense to that. We don't hold saints in the same regard as God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, all considered to be one and three entities at the same time, the nature of the Holy trinity is not understood by mortals. Saints we see as people who have come close to God because of the sacrifices they made themselves to bring themselves and other closer to God. We don't 'worship' them in any way, but we do pay our respects in different ways. As an Irish person, I celebrate St. Patricks Day not because he's a saint, but because of what he did for Ireland and the Irish people. There are many, many legends based around him, about how he rid the island of the devil and chased the snakes away and all that stuff, cool stories though. Yes, in general we pray to the saints, we consider them a gateway to God, as a favour from God asked for by a saint is more likely to happen than if it came from a regular joe. Different saints help in differnt ways.

I'm not very religious, but I do believe in a higher power. Maybe the saints hold no more sway in the afterlife than any of the rest of us do, but it's part of our belief system, and I don't knock any one elses, so please don't knock mine

I thought it was more like having "an in" at the company. If you know of someone who died and is almost certainly in heaven, then you can ask them to put in a good word for you with the big guy. Sort of like being friends with the personal assistant of a major Hollywood studio. You know he can't do anything himself, but he gets to chat with people who are able to get things done and can point their heads your way.

No.

Regarding other issues raised, the Old Testement is seen as a history of spiritual development culminating in the arrival of Jesus.

Perhaps I should elaborate, but if you are interested why not ask a Priest rather than us?

I believe the OP was not asking if Catholics worship saints, but if the general public is under the mistaken impression that they do. If you want to find out what people who aren't Catholic think, then the last person you'd want to ask would be a priest.

The online Catholic encyclepedia or the Catechism would be a better place to find out what and why Catholics do what they do than the nationstates forum.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08070a.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm


http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p5.htm

Venerate, not worship.

Exactly right but they probably don't understand venerate. We ask them to intercede on our behalf in our prayers. And we associate them with certain miracles. For example, St. Jerome, the saint who translated the Bible from Hebrew to Latin and Greek, aka the Vulgate, is the Patron Saint of Bookbinders and Publishers. Michael, the ArchAngel, also a saint, would probably be like the Patron Saint of Cops and such. But by no means are they "gods" but are honored for their likeness to Jesus Christ. All the saints are only human people who have been recognized as holy, however, the Catholic Church recognizes every human being as holy, these saints are just more prominent.

I thought it was more like having "an in" at the company. If you know of someone who died and is almost certainly in heaven, then you can ask them to put in a good word for you with the big guy. Sort of like being friends with the personal assistant of a major Hollywood studio. You know he can't do anything himself, but he gets to chat with people who are able to get things done and can point their heads your way.

You've retty much got it. But ordinary, everyday people in Heaven still don't have as much sway as saints, they lived their lives like the huge majority does, but saints gave everything for God, so they're held in much higher esteem. They're the ones who can speak on your behalf much easier and much more likely to get the job done than regular people

Religion is nothing but the worlds most organized Cult, Catholics in general are the largest part. Wars are started because of religion. People are murdered cause of it, and people are outcasted because of it. I dont mean to put a downer on anyone's beliefs but in plain english Religion itself is the devil everyone fears....hmmm that was a deep moment...I`ll never be able to do that again so hopfully this gets my point across

Religion is nothing but the worlds most organized Cult, Catholics in general are the largest part.
You do realize that you're being redundant, yet at the same time, right? A cult is a system of religious beliefs and practices.

You do realize that you're being redundant, yet at the same time, right? A cult is a system of religious beliefs and practices.

Yeah...ok now I do...but I was in the moment so I didn`t realize it at the time.

Yeah...ok now I do...but I was in the moment so I didn`t realize it at the time.
"Religion itself is the devil everyone fears." - Nerotika
I always felt that the Devil was the personification of things that we percieve as bad within us. That we means we fear oursleves, I suppose.
Anyhow, calling a group of religious people a cult will only get a response along the lines of, "Duh, we know." Assuming they know what they're talking about. So, the term is still game in a derogatory sense, for your information.

Religion is nothing but the worlds most organized Cult, Catholics in general are the largest part. Wars are started because of religion. People are murdered cause of it, and people are outcasted because of it. I dont mean to put a downer on anyone's beliefs but in plain english Religion itself is the devil everyone fears....hmmm that was a deep moment...I`ll never be able to do that again so hopfully this gets my point across

...and yet at the same time, the Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization in the world. What an odd dichotomy.

To be fair to religion in its present application, its pretty harmless compared to the big political and economic movers of the world.

Cloning?
I always thought it had something to do with dirt, breath, and a rib.
"Made in his own image." It doesn't get much clearer than that. Obviously, the dirt and the rib were just ingredients in the primordial clone soup along with eye of newt and toe of frog.
The online Catholic encyclepedia or the Catechism would be a better place to find out what and why Catholics do what they do than the nationstates forum.
Heretic!!! :eek: The Nationstates General Forum is infallible!

Of course, if "not knowing shit," is a euphemism for not buying the version the followers want to project.LOL, Fass! The point they were trying to project is their beliefs - what else are they supposed to say, and how are you supposed to judge it as 'catholic' if it's not really their doctrine?

I never thought it was worship. The Saints hold a special place with God because of actions or attitudes. A Catholic prays to the Saint to intercede with God for a purpose. For instance, St. Christopher is the patron of travelers; a good Catholic, before starting a trip, will pray to God, through St. Christopher, for a safe journey.

As a former catholic Fass I can really say they don't worship saints. I never did, was never taught to, and my family/church didn't. I don't see why your hell bent on saying Catholics worship saints. I mean you need to back up your statement here because your really comming off as condescending and not really proving your point.

As a former catholic Fass I can really say they don't worship saints. I never did, was never taught to, and my family/church didn't. I don't see why your hell bent on saying Catholics worship saints. I mean you need to back up your statement here because your really comming off as condescending and not really proving your point.
Im not sure ... as a former catholic myself Looking back at it I can see some real borderline venerate/worship

I can see how some people think it is worship ... and I am not entirly sure they are wrong.

Reading through these threads, it seems like no one has really defined what exactly constitutes worship. I saw maybe one or two things headed in this direction, such as if payer constitutes worship.

Now, if we look in the American Heritage Dictionary we get some things like this...


1. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
2. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.

Ardent devotion; adoration.

If what constitutes worship is love and devotion, then Catholics most certainly do worship saints. And men worship their wives, and wives their husbands, etc. By definition, most intimiate relationships constitute worship. This doesn't mean that Catholics hold their saints on the same level as God. So the question 'do Catholics worship saints?' really is a loaded one, if anyone bothered to check what worship actually means.

Roget's Thesaurus also states that veneration and worship are synonyms. Taking that into account, and looking at the definition of worship, its pretty obvious that the two are the same thing.

Well, some information on saints within the Christian church.
To begin with, you are mostly completely correct, the official term to use is veneration of saints. This idea was presented in the later patristic writings, notably Theodore the Studite and John of Damascus. They both stated an idea commonly held in the early Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox church, that Christ's perfection is too great for our own flaws, and therefore we need an "intercessor". Now the chain of command persay went Saints --> Mary --> Christ --> God. By venerating the saints you are truly venerating God in the only way that is possible for a human.
Secondly, I disagree with Tropical Sand's point, this is not worship. Veneration is defined as, "Profound respect or revenerence for something." Meanwhile, the definition for worship is, "The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity." Veneration holds a distinct meaning from the term worship. This exact wording was reworked multiple times through multiple conferences of the early church. Trust me, if it came from the early church every letter has significance. They were pretty picky.
And there is the history of saint veneration in a nutshell. If there are any further questions, feel free to message me at the Ultima Publica of Tyslan.
- Rachel Stremp
Professor of Philosophy, Tyslan University

There was a good man who led a humble life, standing strong against temptation. When he died he did not expect a reward, but found himself welcomed into the gates of heaven.

Thing was, it was a bit dull. He sat on a cloud and was just left waiting. He saw below in Hell they had made and effort and there was catering for billions.

He decided to ask God for a sandwich, it arrived. It was a rather limp lettuce sandwich and the bread was a bit stale.

"Look God, I was not seeking reward for a good life, but as I am in Heaven I am suprised that this is it"

"sorry" said God, "I was not expecting company".



Th eopint of the Saints is to assure us it is possible to lead a good life.