NationStates Jolt Archive

(Although there are different forms of marriage, in this post I am talking about western modes of marriage i.e. two people falling in love and deciding to marry each other.)

Does it work? I'm curious as my girlfriend is dropping big unsubtle hints about marriage lately. Although I love my girlfriend I cannot conceive of the idea that we can stay together for the rest of our lives and live happily ever after.

In fact if experience has taught me anything, the more time people spend together the more selfish they become to each other.

I have seen many marriages break up lately among friends and family, and the only marriages that seem to work are ones where the woman takes charge and the man doesn't say much.

I even watched a few episodes of Dr. Phil (which is a talkshow about families and relationships) and upon watching it a few times it seems to me that 90% of marriage breakdowns are caused by men (their cheating ways, unwillingness to help around the house, not being able to conform to the standards set by their wives etc.), and where there are examples of good marriages the husbands seem to have been badly pussy-whipped into submission or have had their testosterone hormones drained out of their body.

How does anyone else feel about love and marriage? Is it an institute you can't disparage?

I would like to know as I never thought about it before until my girlfriend started to bring it up.

Bah. I hate Dr. Phil. Sorry, but as soon as he was mentioned I lost most/all interest.

Why can you not see yourselves staying with each other if you love her? I could not imagine ever being without my partner.

It might just be that you're frightened by the idea of 'forever.' It seems like an awfully long time when you think about it stretched out before you like that. Don't 'aim' for a 40th wedding anniversary; just take it one day at a time and one day you'll be looking back wondering where the time went.

Bah. I hate Dr. Phil. Sorry, but as soon as he was mentioned I lost most/all interest.

Oh, yes my apologies. I am no fan of Dr. Phil myself. He always takes the woman's side in most disputes. But he seems to be 'norm' that most people - even Europeans - take in views of family and relationships. I am not an American so I take all he says with a big pinch of salt.

Oh, yes my apologies. I am no fan of Dr. Phil myself. He always takes the woman's side in most disputes. But he seems to be 'norm' that most people - even Europeans - take in views of family and relationships. I am not an American so I take all he says with a big pinch of salt.
I'm from NZ. He just pisses me off. Anyway, as for the whole marriage thing.. Philosopy said it quite nicely I think.

Why can you not see yourselves staying with each other if you love her? I could not imagine ever being without my partner.

It might just be that you're frightened by the idea of 'forever.' It seems like an awfully long time when you think about it stretched out before you like that. Don't 'aim' for a 40th wedding anniversary; just take it one day at a time and one day you'll be looking back wondering where the time went.

Yes, I agree you with there, but doesn't marriage disallow you make friends with other women. My girlfriend was really angry once because I went for an after-work drink with a female colleague. Being open and honest I told my girlfriend where I had been when she asked me, and she got angry and said that all aspects of feminine friendships should be sought within her and not with other women. I just find that such a limiting idea. It cuts out roughly 50% of the world's population of whom I can make friends with.

:(

In fact if experience has taught me anything, the more time people spend together the more selfish they become to each other.

So basically, marriage doesn't kill love. Long relationship does.


But I don't think so.

Actually, around 46% of the world's population is women, so that means you can't make friends with 46% of them.

Yes, I agree you with there, but doesn't marriage disallow you make friends with other women. My girlfriend was really angry once because I went for an after-work drink with a female colleague. Being open and honest I told my girlfriend where I had been when she asked me, and she got angry and said that all aspects of feminine friendships should be sought within her and not with other women. I just find that such a limiting idea. It cuts out roughly 50% of the world's population of whom I can make friends with.

:(
To be honest, that sounds like your girlfriend has an issue, rather than marriage. You'll just have to talk to her about it - if she can't accept that you're going to have other friends, then the relationship probably couldn't survive anyway. You need trust in any relationship, and if she doesn't trust you then you're in trouble. You certainly shouldn't get married unless you've sorted an issue like that out.

Quite frankly I find the expectation that all legitimate love should last forever completely silly and romantic. Love lasts longer for some couples, shorter for others. Doesn't delegitimize the love that was there.

Marriage would be fine if it wasn't expected to be forever for everyone. As soon as two people don't love each other anymore they should go their seperate ways if they have no children, or live together amicably whilst raising their children while having seperate romantic relationships. Of course, they should only accept children into their lives if they are quite sure the love or at least a good relationship will last long until the child is ready to leave the nest, as it were. If society's expectations for relationships were reasonable this would be the norm.

As to my advice for you and your girlfriend? If she's the kind who has romantic fantasies and expectations about your love lasting forever then avoid marriage entirely until you are sure your love can last a long time. If she'd be reasonable about it, bring up what I mentioned, the expectations for the relationship, and if she agrees that marriage can bring about a positive relationship and that if it ever becomes negative you two can call it off, than by all means.

I would suggest perhaps that you enter a formalized romantically exclusive commonlaw relationship instead of marrying with all the baggage attatched to that unless you wish to marry for religious purposes.

EDIT: Sorry, some other replies got made while I was writing that. Sounds like she's got other issues. I suggest you iron out all those issues before you even entertain the idea of marriage...

thats bunk

Marriage doesn't kill love, but you have to work at it. It sounds to me like you don't want to marry your girlfriend and just want people to tell you it's ok so you don't feel so bad. Don't marry her, because if you don't really want to then it's not going to work is it?

I don't think marriages work, because it seems that nowadays people are marrying each other left and right. I think if people waited until they were with somebody that they really could spend the rest of their life with, rather then their newest hot significant other, then marriages would go a lot smoother.

As far as marriage and I, I think that when I get married my love for the person will stay as strong as ever.

I don't think marriages work, because it seems that nowadays people are marrying each other left and right. I think if people waited until they were with somebody that they really could spend the rest of their life with, rather then their newest hot significant other, then marriages would go a lot smoother.

As far as marriage and I, I think that when I get married my love for the person will stay as strong as ever.

Yes, I agree you with there, but doesn't marriage disallow you make friends with other women.
if by "make friends with" you mean "have sex with", then normally yes.
but there are no real rules of marriage, no laws you have to follow (well i suppose polygamy isn't allowed), just cultural norms that you may choose to follow if you both want. as far as i see things, you just make it up as you go along and hope for the best.

but as Philosopy said, it sounds like your g/f has some pretty bad jealousy/insecurity issues there. you can talk to her about it and reassure her that friends are friends, and just that, while she's extra-super special, no? :)


It might just be that you're frightened by the idea of 'forever.' It seems like an awfully long time when you think about it stretched out before you like that. Don't 'aim' for a 40th wedding anniversary; just take it one day at a time and one day you'll be looking back wondering where the time went.
the way i like to look at it with my g/f is we'll try to make it last as long as we can, and it's as simple as that :fluffle:

(Although there are different forms of marriage, in this post I am talking about western modes of marriage i.e. two people falling in love and deciding to marry each other.)

Does it work? I'm curious as my girlfriend is dropping big unsubtle hints about marriage lately. Although I love my girlfriend I cannot conceive of the idea that we can stay together for the rest of our lives and live happily ever after.

In fact if experience has taught me anything, the more time people spend together the more selfish they become to each other.

I have seen many marriages break up lately among friends and family, and the only marriages that seem to work are ones where the woman takes charge and the man doesn't say much.

I even watched a few episodes of Dr. Phil (which is a talkshow about families and relationships) and upon watching it a few times it seems to me that 90% of marriage breakdowns are caused by men (their cheating ways, unwillingness to help around the house, not being able to conform to the standards set by their wives etc.), and where there are examples of good marriages the husbands seem to have been badly pussy-whipped into submission or have had their testosterone hormones drained out of their body.

How does anyone else feel about love and marriage? Is it an institute you can't disparage?

I would like to know as I never thought about it before until my girlfriend started to bring it up.
To steal a line from Penn & Teller: Dr. Phil is bullshit.

I point to my parents, by the way: happily in love despite the twenty(!) years they've been married.

I think the fact that she said she only wanted to have sex to get pregnant made me a bit worried.

Symbaril: Hate to say it... and this is going to sound blunt and mean... but you have a freak on your hands.

My suggestion: RUN.

Yes, I agree you with there, but doesn't marriage disallow you make friends with other women. My girlfriend was really angry once because I went for an after-work drink with a female colleague. Being open and honest I told my girlfriend where I had been when she asked me, and she got angry and said that all aspects of feminine friendships should be sought within her and not with other women. I just find that such a limiting idea. It cuts out roughly 50% of the world's population of whom I can make friends with.

:(
This is an irrational response, or to put it differently-nature's way of saying 'Get away.' Take some advice from Simon & Garfunkel:
"The problem is all inside your head", she said to me
The answer is easy if you take it logically
I'd like to help you in your struggle to be free
There must be fifty ways to leave your lover

She said it's really not my habit to intrude
Furthermore, I hope my meaning won't be lost or misconstrued
But I'll repeat myself at the risk of being crude
There must be fifty ways to leave your lover
Fifty ways to leave your lover

You just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free
Hop on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free

Ooo slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just listen to me
Hop on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free

She said it grieves me so to see you in such pain
I wish there was something I could do to make you smile again
I said I appreciate that and would you please explain
About the fifty ways

She said why don't we both just sleep on it tonight
And I believe in the morning you'll begin to see the light
And then she kissed me and I realized she probably was right
There must be fifty ways to leave your lover
Fifty ways to leave your lover

You just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free
Hop on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free

Slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just listen to me
Hop on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free

The thread title made me a bit upset and I felt I had to get this off my chest. Hope someone finds it relevant.

I believe one of the most tragic misconceptions of today is the notion that love is a feeling.

Feelings, it seems to me, is a physical symptom of something happening in the soul. For example: Someone lies to you and you decide, consciously or unconsciously, to become angry. This anger then manifests itself physically as a feeling.

Or:

You have a longing in your soul for say, companionship, intimacy and love. (In reality most probably doesn't know exactly what they're longing for.) Maybe you meet an attractive person who you hope can fill these needs, and you "fall in love", which manifests itself as a physical emotion.

Now, what i think is the major problem is that people seem to mistake these feelings of longing for love as love itself. I've done this mistake myself, believe me.

What is then love? I'd say it is a choice. A constant choice to be vulnerable. True love is to expose your innermost self to others in kindness, humility and respect without asking anything in return, just for the hope that they might do the same to you.

This is not easy.

I believe marriage is supposed to be a "secure zone" for two people to practice this "constant choice of vulnerability" without fear of abandonment, ridicule or abuse.

If you base a relationship on emotions, you get a relationship that ends sooner or later when the emotions has withered away. "I don't love you anymore, there's no passion!"
To me, this is the height of selfishness. "As long as you make me feel good, I'll be with you, but if we lose this feeling I'll have to search for it elsewhere."

But if you base a relationship on the choice of love, (vulnerability, humility, kindness, respect etc.) then there is no other end to it than the choice to not love anymore. (In some cases it is perhaps more loving to end certain hurtful relations, but that's another story.)

Also: If you have this kind of loving relationship, then good emotions derive from it.

NOTE (Shouldn't be needed, but...): Love is universal. Not confined to romantic/sexual relationships. Different people, different relations, same love.

Yes, I agree you with there, but doesn't marriage disallow you make friends with other women. My girlfriend was really angry once because I went for an after-work drink with a female colleague. Being open and honest I told my girlfriend where I had been when she asked me, and she got angry and said that all aspects of feminine friendships should be sought within her and not with other women. I just find that such a limiting idea. It cuts out roughly 50% of the world's population of whom I can make friends with.

:(
That's some serious shit. She should learn to be not so controlling.

Actually, around 46% of the world's population is women, so that means you can't make friends with 46% of them.
I think that women actually outnumber men slightly, so it's probably 51%.

I was going to make a snide remark, but Abroad's post above was too good. I don't want to sully the thread.
/salute, Abroad!

To be honest, that sounds like your girlfriend has an issue, rather than marriage. You'll just have to talk to her about it - if she can't accept that you're going to have other friends, then the relationship probably couldn't survive anyway. You need trust in any relationship, and if she doesn't trust you then you're in trouble. You certainly shouldn't get married unless you've sorted an issue like that out.Agreed. My two best friends are both male, yet my long-term boyfriend does not have a problem with that - and I'd really be quite annoyed if he did. If they're just friends, there should be no problem. I've never really understood why some people have such difficulty accepting that male/female friendships can be nothing more than platonic.

I dont think that marraige kills love, it's the fact that most people nowadays dont work to save a marraige as it is acceptable to get a divorce compared to 20 - 40 years ago.

...
Having read all your responses, I have two things to say...

Number 1, don't give up on the idea of marriage just yet. It seems scary; hell even I find it scary. I'm not married myself, but I do intend to marry my boyfriend (we've talked about it and by the time it happens, we'll have been dating over 3 years). Marriage doesn't kill love. It's the actions that occur whether inside marriage or not that kill love.

And secondly, ditch this chick. She sounds terribly intolerant and it'd put a strain on your relationship later on.

Abroad, you said it. It's hard to do that. Excellent post.

My parents fell in love at first sight. That same afternoon they went for a walk. My uncle drove out to find them when it started to pour. He found them walking, soaked to the skin, and offered them a ride home. They both said "Is it raining?"

They married 6 months later. Almost 41 years after that, my mother passed away from cancer. In the intervening years (40 of which I was around for) I never heard them fight. Not once. They loved each other so much that if they disagreed, they could sit down and talk it out and solve the problem (not that they disagreed much either). My father was not (as suggested by an earlier post) whipped. They were partners, each with strengths and weaknesses, but they loved each other so much from the moment they met even till today that they were the happiest, most married people ever.

It is a little bit hard to try and live up to that fairy tale of true love at first sight. It makes me a little bit more picky about my partners, but then again that may not be such a bad thing either. But it also makes me sure that love can not only survive marriage, but flourish in it.

I think the fact that she said she only wanted to have sex to get pregnant made me a bit worried.
RED FLAG ALERT!!

why do you want to stay with a woman who not only wants to get married but wants to have babies NOW? thats a whole nother problem. one that would put a huge strain on a new marriage.

how old are you? how old is she? how much do you want a baby?

do you really think that marriage with a woman who is withholding sex before you even get married is going to work out in the long term??


as dr phil might ask "hows that working for ya?"

Hrmmm ...

I've been married 9 years now to a woman I've known for 17 years. Nothing wrong with our relationship. I have plenty of female friends and she plenty of male friends. We love each other very much, trust each other, have amazing kinky sex, and are passionate about each other. We barely even ever fight.

Jealousy = Possession and I do not *own* my wife and nor does she *own* me.

Sounds to me like you need to drop this loser girlfriend of yours.

The pedantic point first, their are marginally more women than men in the world.

Clearly you know you should dump her, or you would not be coming on to this board with the nagging feeling that what she says is not right. You want encouragement to get rid and I am happy to provide it. Only get married if you are certain.

You do not sound like a man in the first place, more like a man who wants to work hard to make it work, but you cannot force it. You can work at it and make it work if you are both prepared to understand and to give, but that is not hte case here.

She should be able to accept that you are a well balanced human being. Also, as a general rule of thumb, people who are less faithful tend ot be more jealous; just as liars find it hard to trust.

One other minor point, that might seem pedantic, but I do not think it is. No-one gets married forever, they get married until death do them part. It is true that love cannot last forever, but if you both work at it and are both willing ot accept each other then it can last for fifty years or so.

It is your life though and if you are not certain, then run. If you are, then good luck.

I'd like to take issue with the tired, hackneyed, done-to-death, beer-commercial concept of being pussywhipped. Do I believe anyone can ever be whipped? Of course. There's a world of difference between being a functioning part of a romantic partnership and being someone's doormat.

A man who concedes when he's wrong, shares any work that needs to be done within the relationship, and/or gives of himself to aid or please his partner is not whipped. He's a responsible, thoughtful, considerate human being. Whipped is when there is no compromise but capitulation, no discussion but submission and no sharing but demands. The adolescent locker-room notion that "macho" means never having to do anything for the sake of someone else is pathetic, and people like that shouldn't EVER get married. The institution of marriage has a shitload more to fear from assholes of either gender in heterosexual marriages than it ever will from same-sex marriages.

A marriage -- a good one, at any rate -- has much in common with an alloy. When two materials are melded together to form one of greater combined strength than either alone would have, neither component seeks to act outside of the alloy. The alloy is an entirely new material with its own function, reactions and properties. Some of the properties of the constiutent materials remain, but the majority of reactions and functions are that of the alloy, not of the discrete components.

If being a part of such a wonderful and co-beneficial combination means I'm whipped, then whip me hard, baby.

I'd like to take issue with the tired, hackneyed, done-to-death, beer-commercial concept of being pussywhipped. Do I believe anyone can ever be whipped? Of course. There's a world of difference between being a functioning part of a romantic partnership and being someone's doormat.

A man who concedes when he's wrong, shares any work that needs to be done within the relationship, and/or gives of himself to aid or please his partner is not whipped. He's a responsible, thoughtful, considerate human being. Whipped is when there is no compromise but capitulation, no discussion but submission and no sharing but demands. The adolescent locker-room notion that "macho" means never having to do anything for the sake of someone else is pathetic, and people like that shouldn't EVER get married. The institution of marriage has a shitload more to fear from assholes of either gender in heterosexual marriages than it ever will from same-sex marriages.

A marriage -- a good one, at any rate -- has much in common with an alloy. When two materials are melded together to form one of greater combined strength than either alone would have, neither component seeks to act outside of the alloy. The alloy is an entirely new material with its own function, reactions and properties. Some of the properties of the constiutent materials remain, but the majority of reactions and functions are that of the alloy, not of the discrete components.

If being a part of such a wonderful and co-beneficial combination means I'm whipped, then whip me hard, baby.

Some people are controlling.

Not wanting to be in that sort of relationship hardly equates to being a machismo insensitive chauvanist. Regarding the adolescent image, well that is boys pretending to be men rather than men being men.

Being in an loving relationship means doing your best for someone rather than doing what they say.

I do not disagree with anything you say, but what you write implies to me that you feel he should settle down with her. That seems dubious. I write this more on the basis of his doubts and need to express them than the words themselves.

Why don't you go into couple's (or pre-marital) counseling to see if you're a good match? They can give you some really great tools for how to fight "the right way" and help you talk about your values and taboo subjects such as how you deal with money, childrearing, religion, and housework. You can't go into something like this blind. If you have a good idea of what your expectations and her expectations are, you can make an informed decision about whether marriage is right for you, and specifically whether marriage to her is right for you.

There are books about this too, but don't go for any of Dr. Phil's stuff. (He cheated on his first wife like crazy, and when she confronted him about it, he told her that that's just the way things are and she'd have to get over it. Take a guess at how his current marriage is doing.)

Love will never last forever because there is no such thing as forever, we are all mortal. Love though, can last until both partners die. People can be married for 50, 60 or more years, happily married. Lots of relationships don't last that long, but that doesn't mean it's not possible.

As for your specific case, your girlfriend just sounds jealous and controlling. That has nothing to do with marriage and everything to do with her. I can't blame you for not being able to see yourself with her for decades, i couldn't see myself with someone like that for that long either. I think you need to sit down with her and talk to her, tell her that some of her behaviour really isn't fair or productive. If she isn't willing to take a look inside herself and try to change some of that, you should break up with her. Trust me, when you find the right person, it's not as hard as you might think to imagine yourself with them for the rest of your life, whether married or not. That doesn't mean it always ends up that way, but you can imagine it. If you can't see yourself with her until the day you die, she's probably not the right one for you.

marriage seems to work fine for me, but I am not relying on mere emotions, nor do I put my own intrests above my husbands (and likewise he doesn't put his interests above mine) it's a team effort, we are commited and have made a decision to spend forever with eachother. If you can't commit to hard work and sticking it out then maybe marriage isn't for you.

Ah, love and marriage. Two outdated societal constructs. My hatred for both doesn’t blind me to their aptitude at destroying each other.

You just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free
Hop on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free
LOL.. You win this thread. :D

Marriage can kill love, but it doesn't have to. You just have to work at it, as you would for anything worthwhile.

That fact that you posted on these boards asking if marriage is an option shows that you are not ready for marriage, esp. with your current girlfriend if you complain about her over the internet.

I myself am engaged and I proposed to my girlfriend because it felt the exact right thing to do and it still does.

When I asked her father for his permission (because I am a traditionalist) he gave me a good peice of advise.
''Do not think that love lasts forever, it doesn't. Love can fade away over time. The important thing is you are still there for eachother and still feel close''
Hopefully I will be in love with my girlfriend for a good long time after marriage but if it fades it fades, and we will cope. A marriage is a commitment and I will stick to that.

It is the actions in a marriage not the lose of love that can destroy it. Regretably most people blame the lose of love for destructive actions like cheating, when they shouldn't. They should blame their poor morale fibre and unwillingness to commit to a 'contract' in which they don't want to be in anymore just because they have lost the esctasy of 'love'.

The point of marriage is not the love (it helps) but promising to be together through everything.

"Marriage kills love"

Not necessarily, but you do have to work at it ... a lot!

What is then love? I'd say it is a choice. A constant choice to be vulnerable. True love is to expose your innermost self to others in kindness, humility and respect without asking anything in return, just for the hope that they might do the same to you.
You are correct! It's nice to see that someone besides me realizes that love is a decision. It's not some "warm, fuzzy feeling" you get whenever the object of your affections is in the room, although it's nice when you do feel that.

You have to decide repeatedly to love someone, sometimes almost moment to moment.

Thanks, everyone for answering. From what I've gathered marriage is an institute that works for some and doesn't work for others. I have been raised by parents who told me that marriage is hell so I think my own opinions are somewhat coloured too. :confused:


I've told my girlfriend on several occasions that I am not the marrying type and that she should seek a man who is good at fixing things around the house and wants to settle down. So for now I am stalling off any ideas of marriage. It would be weak and selfish of me to get married just to please someone else.

Thanks, everyone for answering. From what I've gathered marriage is an institute that works for some and doesn't work for others. I have been raised by parents who told me that marriage is hell so I think my own opinions are somewhat coloured too. :confused:


I've told my girlfriend on several occasions that I am not the marrying type and that she should seek a man who is good at fixing things around the house and wants to settle down. So for now I am stalling off any ideas of marriage. It would be weak and selfish of me to get married just to please someone else.
coming from someone who used to do a little premarital counseling, from what I know about you and she, I would not recomend that you two get married, or at least not without a whole lot of counseling first.

Although then you have to wonder if she is the "marrying type" and you are not, why you stay together at all, in the end you two are going to fight about that one issue constantly, it will literally be what every single fight you have is "really about" and you will be annoyed, and she will be frustrated, and neither will be happy.

Some people are controlling.

Not wanting to be in that sort of relationship hardly equates to being a machismo insensitive chauvanist. Regarding the adolescent image, well that is boys pretending to be men rather than men being men.

Being in an loving relationship means doing your best for someone rather than doing what they say.

I do not disagree with anything you say, but what you write implies to me that you feel he should settle down with her. That seems dubious. I write this more on the basis of his doubts and need to express them than the words themselves.
My statement was more a general one than specifically addressed to the OPs woes. I think the OP needs to pull his head out and ask himself some serious questions. Indeed, some people are controlling. I swear, when Satan takes form on Earth (if you're into mythology), there's bound to be a hoard of women out there who'll be lining up to date him. Think about it -- the ultimate in changing a person! I can see it:

"But he's SATAN!"
"He's got a cute ass."
"But he's the DEVIL!"
"He's sexy."
"He's the Prince of Darkness!"
"I can change him."

(Thanks to Bill Hicks and "Pussywhipped Satan")