NationStates Jolt Archive

Chivalry is a slightly sexist concept. It is the idea that a man should help a woman out in any way she needs, and do certain things for her. (open doors, pull up chairs, ect.) It also encompasses the idea of protecting a woman in danger (though to some degree this is tied to another concept of chivalry, which is protecting those weaker than you, and at least physically, most women are weaker than most men, martial artists excepted. I have a female Kendo instructor who I do not doubt could kick my ass.) Even the positive parts of chivalry have negative connotations. If you help a person by rote, every time, you give the impression that they in fact require that help. If you pay for meals, or do all the hard labor, or earn all the money, you make your partner dependent on you. So I ask you this: What should we do with chivalry. Does it need to be redefined? or gotten rid of entirely? What do you think?

Chivalry's dead. personally, I really don't want a guy who thinks i'm weak as a kitten all the time. It would drive me insane.

Really!? I always thought that chivalry was a code of martial honor held by members of a landed, and mounted;) , ruling class. I guess thats a little midievel of me.;)

It is not implied that they "need" help. It is implied that you respect them too much to let them be troubled.
Parallel: If you are a good host, it doesn't mean you assume your guests are handicapped.

You can be chivalrous without being condescending. I haven't yet met a girl who didn't appreciate my holding the door for her, or sending poetry.

Essentially, your question is about gender roles, if/how fundamental they are, and whether they should exist at all.

I think that most behavioral codes that are based on gender are quite silly in the society I live in. But some are comforting, or easy to follow and innofensive. I guess I draw the line at common sense, and also, it's a personal thing. What I find ridiculous or insulting, someone else may think is necessary or dignified.

Chivalry needs to be redefined. Help those who need it. If some man is carrying an armload of stuff, I'll open the door for him. It should have nothing to do with gender and everything to do with who needs the help at the moment.

I do appreciate men paying for my dinner, but I have taken male friends to dinner (usually as a gesture of appreciation because they did something for me that I couldn't do myself, like change the brake shoes on my car).

It's really about reciprocity.

Chivalry is a slightly sexist concept. It is the idea that a man should help a woman out in any way she needs, and do certain things for her. (open doors, pull up chairs, ect.) It also encompasses the idea of protecting a woman in danger (though to some degree this is tied to another concept of chivalry, which is protecting those weaker than you, and at least physically, most women are weaker than most men, martial artists excepted. I have a female Kendo instructor who I do not doubt could kick my ass.) Even the positive parts of chivalry have negative connotations. If you help a person by rote, every time, you give the impression that they in fact require that help. If you pay for meals, or do all the hard labor, or earn all the money, you make your partner dependent on you. So I ask you this: What should we do with chivalry. Does it need to be redefined? or gotten rid of entirely? What do you think?

Sexist? Nahh. We are bigger and tougher in general. A woman deserves protection unless she can shoot or fight like your Kendo instructor.

I can tell you from experience most women don't mind the door being opened for them. Your dates probably won't mind a chair being pulled out for them. Most women would not mind an escort to their car at night by a male friend.

Being a gentlemen doesn't mean you have to do everything for them.

Some women don't mind being "dependent" on men. Others do. Most of the time they aren't. Running a household with children is a job in itself.

I will still act the way I do not matter what others may think.

Now I'm just waiting for The Half-Hidden to find this thread and go apeshit.

To tell you the truth, I like it when a guy holds a door open for me. I won't get upset if he doesn't but I've always found it cute.

However, it does tell me a few things about the person.

He's polite (Not many people are thease days.)
He cares about you.
He's actually trying to be nice.
His mother raised him right.

Chivalry needs to be redefined. Help those who need it. If some man is carrying an armload of stuff, I'll open the door for him. It should have nothing to do with gender and everything to do with who needs the help at the moment.

I do appreciate men paying for my dinner, but I have taken male friends to dinner (usually as a gesture of appreciation because they did something for me that I couldn't do myself, like change the brake shoes on my car).

It's really about reciprocity.It's really about being polite and helping those who need it.


Oh, and sometimes it helps you get laid.;)

It's a fine line between nice and annoying, and the crucial point is whether they're doing it because they're nice and it's no trouble to them or because they're a man and you're a woman. It can be hard to gauge intent I know, but there are impressions I get. For example, most of the time people in general hold doors for me at the library and at school when I'm just behind them, especially pull-doors. That's just what people there do. However, it annoys me when I'm ten or fifteen feet away from the building and some man (it's only men who do this to me) who appears to be ready to enter, notices me and pulls the door open and stands behind it without entering until I've gone in, which, considering my distance, usually takes about 5+ seconds. Since it's only men who do this to me, and they have to considerably break their initial flow of movement to do it, it annoys me. Helping me take my coat off is only okay if it's my boyfriend and we're at a formal function; otherwise I bristle. And if anyone ever tried to pull out my chair, I'd really have to bite my tongue; not only is it the sexist "chivalry" syndrome but actually it makes it more inconvenient for me because I have to pull my chair back in that much more, or else figure out how they intend to do that for me.

It's a fine line between nice and annoying, <snip>.All perfectly logical arguements.

How do you feel about car doors?

Now I'm just waiting for The Half-Hidden to find this thread and go apeshit.

It'll be a sight to see.

It'll be a sight to see.
*pops some popcorn*

want any?

I’ve actually gotten a snarky remark from holding a door for a women (holding the door for a woman, near the Woman’s Studies classrooms at University should be done at your own risk). I think I asked her if she’d preferred I slam it in her face.

I hold the door for other people because I would like to live in that kind of a society.

Equality and chivalry don't mix.

Chivalry can lose its appeal very quickly according to my gf. It can be useful for first/second dates but I'm not sure if it's really as important in a long-term relationship.

Hey, I hold the door open for anyone who's older than me, or sometimes anyone in general and I'm a girl.

I’ve actually gotten a snarky remark from holding a door for a women (holding the door for a woman, near the Woman’s Studies classrooms at University should be done at your own risk). I think I asked her if she’d preferred I slam it in her face.

I hold the door for other people because I would like to live in that kind of a society.

Was she very young (teens, twenties)? As women get older, they appreciate the courtesies more (unless they're feminazis, in which case, all bets are off - they're not even capable of courtesy).

I hold the door for just about anyone: old people, women, young guys, punk rockers with spiky hair, animals that yowl at the door, etc. If I expected anything from it I’d be working in front of a lobby in a funny suit somewhere.

Equality and chivalry don't mix.
Strictly, no, they don't. But I don't think equality really exists either. I treat every person differently based on a whole whack of factors appart form their gender. People aren't "equal" - we differ in many ways.

I have no problem with a guy being subtly gallant about whatever, if I like them. If I don't it'll probably come across as icky. They could do the same thing a considerate female friend would do, and it could be taken in different ways depeding on other factors. I'm not being very clear, but my point is that thre's lots of variables, and that "chivalry" is no different than other social structures.

Was she very young (teens, twenties)? As women get older, they appreciate the courtesies more (unless they're feminazis, in which case, all bets are off - they're not even capable of courtesy).

Early twenties militant feminist (you meet a lot of them in certain parts of University campuses), proving that I’ll even hold the door for unpleasant people.

Equality and chivalry don't mix.

sure it can.

Chivalry can lose its appeal very quickly according to my gf. It can be useful for first/second dates but I'm not sure if it's really as important in a long-term relationship.

It's all in the delivery and the timing. Long-term it's usually good to do it when they have dolled themselves up for something.

Equality and chivalry don't mix.

I agree, but I think some people change their mind very fast when it comes to picking the last spot in the life boat, when the ship is going down. How would society feel, for instance, about some burly guy taking the spot of a pregnant woman and leaving her to drown? If he did give up his spot for her, how would society feel about her referring to him as a male chauvinist pig?

The Bruce

It's all in the delivery and the timing. Long-term it's usually good to do it when they have dolled themselves up for something.
Blunt and to the point. If your definition of chivalry is holding doors and paying for everything, I guess that works.

if you definition is a bit more inclusive, having someone be especially nice to you on a normal day is always good too. That's not really gender-specific though. So I guess it sort of defeats the purpose of this particular discussion.

sure it can.

Chivalry is generally accepted as courtesy towards women. Note, women. Males are excluded. If you broaden the definition of chivalry to include courtesy regardless of sex, only then can it exist hand in hand with gender equality.

Early twenties militant feminist (you meet a lot of them in certain parts of University campuses), proving that I’ll even hold the door for unpleasant people.

Then, feminazis not withstanding, you're a gentleman and to be commended. I am a feminist, but not a radical, I'll say thank you on her behalf and hope someday she gets some sense.

Feminism has struck a lethal blow to chivalry, and I couldn’t be happier about it.
Those women who scoff at the door being held open for them, their numbers are increasing. Soon the majority of women will have gained this good sense.

I've been thinking while reading the replies, and I think maybe that Chivalry might have initially been meant to apply to those weaker/less capable than oneself, and that this was assumed to include all women due to the innate sexism of the times.

I've been thinking while reading the replies, and I think maybe that Chivalry might have initially been meant to apply to those weaker/less capable than oneself, and that this was assumed to include all women due to the innate sexism of the times.Right. What we have now is a sort of weak vestige of something that was probably crucial to women in former times.

If you have no rights, no property, and no power, well, you'd prbably be thankful for a code that regimented thoughtful and protective (if paternalistic) treatment of you.

However, it annoys me when I'm ten or fifteen feet away from the building and some man (it's only men who do this to me) who appears to be ready to enter, notices me and pulls the door open and stands behind it without entering until I've gone in, which, considering my distance, usually takes about 5+ seconds. Since it's only men who do this to me, and they have to considerably break their initial flow of movement to do it, it annoys me.

That's interesting, and although I agree I am yet to see a girl do this, I myself will do it to everyone, regardless of gender. I don't mind breaking my flow of movement to help someone, even that little bit. The only thing I need is a thank you, then I know that I have in some small way helped. Think of it as the symbolic sacrifice of a small amount of my time to give to you, just to say I am making an effort to be nice to you. To paraphrase one of my favorite quotes: "...but the ripples of a smile last forever."

That's interesting, and although I agree I am yet to see a girl do this, I myself will do it to everyone, regardless of gender. I don't mind breaking my flow of movement to help someone, even that little bit. The only thing I need is a thank you, then I know that I have in some small way helped. Think of it as the symbolic sacrifice of a small amount of my time to give to you, just to say I am making an effort to be nice to you. To paraphrase one of my favorite quotes: "...but the ripples of a smile last forever."
I do this to on occasions.

I've been thinking while reading the replies, and I think maybe that Chivalry might have initially been meant to apply to those weaker/less capable than oneself, and that this was assumed to include all women due to the innate sexism of the times.
Look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chivalry) for a little info on the history of chivalry.

I’ve actually gotten a snarky remark from holding a door for a women (holding the door for a woman, near the Woman’s Studies classrooms at University should be done at your own risk). I think I asked her if she’d preferred I slam it in her face.
She prob would have preferred it, as it would have 'proven' to her what assholes all men are.

I hold the door for just about anyone: ....punk rockers with spiky hair, animals that yowl at the door, etc.
Good to do that for both. Sometimes it's difficult to tell the two apart.

Good to do that for both. Sometimes it's difficult to tell the two apart.
Its probably just that he mistakes the punk rockers for the howling animals and lets them in animal lover that he is.;)

That's interesting, and although I agree I am yet to see a girl do this, I myself will do it to everyone, regardless of gender. I don't mind breaking my flow of movement to help someone, even that little bit. The only thing I need is a thank you, then I know that I have in some small way helped. Think of it as the symbolic sacrifice of a small amount of my time to give to you, just to say I am making an effort to be nice to you. To paraphrase one of my favorite quotes: "...but the ripples of a smile last forever."I do the same. People seem to like it more often than not. :)

To paraphrase one of my favorite quotes: "...but the ripples of a smile last forever."*vomit*

*vomit*

I know it sounds really corny, but if you think about it, it is true. They become slightly happier. So they smile to the next person they see. Who walks away happier. Who complements the librarian, who is now happier. Who lets that kid off the 3p library fine. Who goes away happier etc. Whatever action you make will affect in tiny ways those of people world over. Which in turn affect you. You might disagree, but I feel it is a good principle to form you actions towards others around.

I know it sounds really corny, but if you think about it, it is true. They become slightly happier. So they smile to the next person they see. Who walks away happier. Who complements the librarian, who is now happier. Who lets that kid off the 3p library fine. Who goes away happier etc. Whatever action you make will affect in tiny ways those of people world over. Which in turn affect you. You might disagree, but I feel it is a good principle to form you actions towards others around.
When I’m pissed off, happy people piss me off more.
My existence alone debunks your happy little “ripple effect.”

When I’m pissed off, happy people piss me off more.
My existence alone debunks your happy little “ripple effect.”

Ah, Undelia, you'll only be happy when we've eliminated courtesy altogether. Of course, the world will be so much better off then.

When I’m pissed off, happy people piss me off more.
My existence alone debunks your happy little “ripple effect.”No it doesn't. It's called "stopping the wheel", one of the doctrines of Karma.

You do it in a negative way, some of us do it in a positive way.

Most just let the wheel turn.

When a stranger (or my husband) opens a door for me it's usually common curtesy. I smile and say thank you. My husband doesn't open my car door or pull my chair out for me regularly.

When we get all fancied up and go out for a date that's the time for that sort of thing, me acting all demure and him being all manly, because it's a special occasion. (even here, however, he pulls my chair out for me but isn't standing behind it waiting to push it in for me, cause that's just rediculous and unsafe, IMO)

He does, however, give me his arm on a near daily basis. But that's cause we live in Sweden and it's winter and icy and I tend to fall down a lot. It's more secure than holding hands. We'll see when summer comes, but maybe I'll still take his arm when we walk, it lets me be close to him.

I like chivalry, but I don't think it's something to be taken for granted and I don't think it's something that should be mandatory. It's expected on a first or second date, and it's something that a long term couple can talk about when they want it in their lives, but whenever you see it you should feel pampered and grateful. Someone is doing something purely for your benefit and asking for nothing but a smile and a thanks in return. That's almost getting something for free! :D

Ah, Undelia, you'll only be happy when we've eliminated courtesy altogether. Of course, the world will be so much better off then.
It couldn't be worse.
It's called "stopping the wheel", one of the doctrines of Karma.
I really hope you don't seriously believe in that voodoo bullshit.

I really hope you don't seriously believe in that voodoo bullshit.It works, people tend to pass on the vibes they get, positive or negative.


Now no more nasty posts or I start putting pins in this doll....

Chivalry is a slightly sexist concept. It is the idea that a man should help a woman out in any way she needs, and do certain things for her. (open doors, pull up chairs, ect.) It also encompasses the idea of protecting a woman in danger (though to some degree this is tied to another concept of chivalry, which is protecting those weaker than you, and at least physically, most women are weaker than most men, martial artists excepted. I have a female Kendo instructor who I do not doubt could kick my ass.) Even the positive parts of chivalry have negative connotations. If you help a person by rote, every time, you give the impression that they in fact require that help. If you pay for meals, or do all the hard labor, or earn all the money, you make your partner dependent on you. So I ask you this: What should we do with chivalry. Does it need to be redefined? or gotten rid of entirely? What do you think?:rolleyes:
Most of the things up there are common courtesy in my book.

It's a fine line between nice and annoying, and the crucial point is whether they're doing it because they're nice and it's no trouble to them or because they're a man and you're a woman. It can be hard to gauge intent I know, but there are impressions I get. For example, most of the time people in general hold doors for me at the library and at school when I'm just behind them, especially pull-doors. That's just what people there do. However, it annoys me when I'm ten or fifteen feet away from the building and some man (it's only men who do this to me) who appears to be ready to enter, notices me and pulls the door open and stands behind it without entering until I've gone in, which, considering my distance, usually takes about 5+ seconds. Since it's only men who do this to me, and they have to considerably break their initial flow of movement to do it, it annoys me. Helping me take my coat off is only okay if it's my boyfriend and we're at a formal function; otherwise I bristle. And if anyone ever tried to pull out my chair, I'd really have to bite my tongue; not only is it the sexist "chivalry" syndrome but actually it makes it more inconvenient for me because I have to pull my chair back in that much more, or else figure out how they intend to do that for me.
What about my situation, I live in a building that has keyed entry, If I recognize the person, I'll stop and hold the door for them, waiting for several seconds like that. I may not have actually talked to them, but I've seen them around. What about that?

For the most part I hold the door for just about everyone. If I'm in a pissy mood that changes, but otherwise I do.

I agree, but I think some people change their mind very fast when it comes to picking the last spot in the life boat, when the ship is going down. How would society feel, for instance, about some burly guy taking the spot of a pregnant woman and leaving her to drown? If he did give up his spot for her, how would society feel about her referring to him as a male chauvinist pig?

The Bruce


That is an interesting question...

Anyway, I normally hold doors for people if their only few steps away, or if they're carrying a bunch of stuff. Just cause it takes little extra effort on my part and saves them effort, especially in the case of the person carrying a bunch of stuff.

If someone ever gets mad at me for holding the door for them, which no one ever has, I'll probably give them the line about slamming the door in their face next time, too. And I'll keep a mental image of their face so that I can make sure I do slam the door in their face if there is a next time.

It's all in the delivery and the timing. Long-term it's usually good to do it when they have dolled themselves up for something.
Correct. With a new potential partner, a little chivarly can perhaps make all the difference. With a wife of 10 years, if theres no chivarly for a few weeks it's not going to do that much damage. Still, it can be effective in many situations.

To tell you the truth, I like it when a guy holds a door open for me. I won't get upset if he doesn't but I've always found it cute.

However, it does tell me a few things about the person.

He's polite (Not many people are thease days.)
He cares about you.
He's actually trying to be nice.
His mother raised him right.


ha i like that one.
Its a generational thing. as a younger guy ive found that people our generation dont mind having doors held open for them etc... then again i do this for anyone. however my mum, being of a more femenist generation really gets pissed off when i do this for her. or at least if i do it often enough. i have only lately learnt that i need to stop doing this around her. women of her generation are used to trying to see sexism in every action so they can complain about it as a way of highliting the need for change in public opinion.
BTW, i do not think women any lesser equiped to defend themselves than men. My Tae-Kwon Do Instructor is female, and the only other two black belts in my class are female, and i know from personal experience that each one of them can kick my ass. the only reason they are less well represented in the upper hierarchy of most martial arts is that the upper positions are filled by men of the generation when men filled all the top spots

Chivalry is a slightly sexist concept. It is the idea that a man should help a woman out in any way she needs, and do certain things for her. (open doors, pull up chairs, ect.)

If you help a person by rote, every time, you give the impression that they in fact require that help. If you pay for meals, or do all the hard labor, or earn all the money, you make your partner dependent on you.
For these reasons I think chivalry should outlawed! Well, not quite, but I disagree with it.

You can be chivalrous without being condescending. I haven't yet met a girl who didn't appreciate my holding the door for her, or sending poetry.
I just hold the door open for anyone who is behind me, whether they be male of female. It's not chivalry.

Sending poetry is so romantic, who wouldn't like that? :)

It is not implied that they "need" help. It is implied that you respect them too much to let them be troubled.
Women don't deserve any more respect than men, just because they are women.

I do appreciate men paying for my dinner
Of course, who doesn't like getting free stuff?

I have taken male friends to dinner (usually as a gesture of appreciation because they did something for me that I couldn't do myself, like change the brake shoes on my car).
Why couldn't you change the brake shoes of your car? Women are not inherently impeded in learning how to operate or fix a car.

I can tell you from experience most women don't mind the door being opened for them. Your dates probably won't mind a chair being pulled out for them. Most women would not mind an escort to their car at night by a male friend.
I've always thought that pulling out a chair is really a bit much. It's just too basic to warrant assistance. Escorting friends at night is something I occasionally do, that's just common sense. I don't want them getting mugged.

Now I'm just waiting for The Half-Hidden to find this thread and go apeshit.
Yay, I've got a reputation as an extremist! At least people on the internet remember me! Don't forget Bottle as well!

Sending poetry is so romantic, who wouldn't like that? :) My ex, for one... She doesn't understand my poems :p

However, it annoys me when I'm ten or fifteen feet away from the building and some man (it's only men who do this to me) who appears to be ready to enter, notices me and pulls the door open and stands behind it without entering until I've gone in, which, considering my distance, usually takes about 5+ seconds. Since it's only men who do this to me, and they have to considerably break their initial flow of movement to do it, it annoys me.
That's so damn annoying, though I notice that it's only ever women who do that for me.

I usually just shout out, "hey, I can open the door myself" in a jovial way.

I agree, but I think some people change their mind very fast when it comes to picking the last spot in the life boat, when the ship is going down. How would society feel, for instance, about some burly guy taking the spot of a pregnant woman and leaving her to drown? If he did give up his spot for her, how would society feel about her referring to him as a male chauvinist pig?

It's not 1912 anymore. There are enough lifeboats for everyone as required by law.

Blunt and to the point. If your definition of chivalry is holding doors and paying for everything, I guess that works.

Paying for everything? I hate that. Maybe I'm just a stingy cheapskate.

however, he pulls my chair out for me but isn't standing behind it waiting to push it in for me, cause that's just rediculous and unsafe
That is a sight that just makes me shudder. The body language says "I. Own. You."

What about my situation, I live in a building that has keyed entry, If I recognize the person, I'll stop and hold the door for them, waiting for several seconds like that. I may not have actually talked to them, but I've seen them around. What about that?

That's not the same, because opening that door requires more effort than just pushing gently. It's a genuinely nice, friendly thing to do.

It's not 1912 anymore. There are enough lifeboats for everyone as required by law.



Theoretically. However, in real life situations, there are circumstances in which it doesn't work out quite like it's supposed to. As in, some lifeboats are damaged (possibly by whatever it is that's causing the ship to sink), some lifeboats are inaccessible due to either damage to the ship or the way in which it is sinking, the ship is sinking fast enough that there won't be time to launch all the lifeboats, or even that because people are often stupid and irrational, some lifeboats were launched with not enough people on them, leaving not enough lifeboats left for the number of people still on board.

In any case, it's simply an example of how people's opinions may change depending on the situation.

Back on topic, I say just hold the door for everybody who's a few steps behind you, just be nice to people in general and then you won't worry about whether you're chivalrous or sexist or what not.

What does Chivalry have to do with gender roles? :confused:

Chivalry is a medieval code of honour for Knights, originating in France (and possibly Spain). Nothing more, nothing less.

Theoretically. However, in real life situations, there are circumstances in which it doesn't work out quite like it's supposed to. As in, some lifeboats are damaged (possibly by whatever it is that's causing the ship to sink), some lifeboats are inaccessible due to either damage to the ship or the way in which it is sinking, the ship is sinking fast enough that there won't be time to launch all the lifeboats, or even that because people are often stupid and irrational, some lifeboats were launched with not enough people on them, leaving not enough lifeboats left for the number of people still on board.
I suppose I would have to go for a coin-flipping policy in this one.

What does Chivalry have to do with gender roles? :confused:

Chivalry is a medieval code of honour for Knights, originating in France (and possibly Spain). Nothing more, nothing less.
The current meaning of the word means giving women preferential treatment and assistance, based on the theory that they can't do anything for themselves without male help.

The current meaning of the word means giving women preferential treatment and assistance, based on the theory that they can't do anything for themselves without male help.

If it is outdated, I'd rather have it replaced with the notion that you should simply try to be nice, considerate and helpful in general than with nothing.

The current meaning of the word means giving women preferential treatment and assistance, based on the theory that they can't do anything for themselves without male help.
Then this thread should be called "bullshit gender roles", or "modern Chivalry" or something like that.

Anyhow, Marriam-Webster defines Chivalry as:

Etymology: Middle English chivalrie, from Middle French chevalerie, from chevalier knight
1 : mounted men-at-arms
2 archaic a : martial valor b : knightly skill
3 : gallant or distinguished gentlemen
4 : the system, spirit, or customs of medieval knighthood
5 : the qualities of the ideal knight : chivalrous conduct

So applying the word "chivalry" to its apparent modern meaning is a bit silly. None of the men I know are mounted men-at-arms.

I suppose I would have to go for a coin-flipping policy in this one.

As for who gets the spot... well, they'd have to work that out. I suppose if you're going to be completely fair, it depends on ability to swim.

And even without chivalry, I don't think people would like her saying bad things (calling him a chauvinist pig) about someone who gave up their chance to live so that she could.

As for who gets the spot... well, they'd have to work that out. I suppose if you're going to be completely fair, it depends on ability to swim.

And even without chivalry, I don't think people would like her saying bad things (calling him a chauvinist pig) about someone who gave up their chance to live so that she could.
Your ability to swim is inconsequential -- unless you're in very warm water, hypothermia will finish you quickly (in warm water, not as quickly, but just as finished).

(Modern) Chivalry isn't dead, it's hiding from (modern) Feminism.

Your ability to swim is inconsequential -- unless you're in very warm water, hypothermia will finish you quickly (in warm water, not as quickly, but just as finished).

Even with the ability to swim, your chances will be quite slim, yes, but without that ability, they are slimmer still. Though the difference is incredibly small, it still exists.

Politically correct, reletavist moron. Chivalry is an early medieval concept, and whilst its intricacies may well be "misogynistic", which incidentally, they are'nt, the underlying premise of aiding those in need and honour are tenable within the modern world.

If it is outdated, I'd rather have it replaced with the notion that you should simply try to be nice, considerate and helpful in general than with nothing.
That's politeness.

That's politeness.

In which case I'd say I'm polite rather rather chivalrous :) (Although chivalrous has a better ring to it lol).

I open doors and stuff - chairs is just weird, step too far, and awkward once it's out - and offer t help people up, but that's no more than I'd ask for myself, so I guess it evens out. Of course, it's generally mroe than I actually get since most of my friends are too mean spirited to gimme a hand up lol.

Sending poetry is so romantic, who wouldn't like that?
Depends on the poetry. I've never found dirty limericks to be all that sucessful.

[QUOTE=Undelia]It couldn't be worse.

I see sarcasm isn't one of your strong points.

I see sarcasm isn't one of your strong points.
I’m quite versed in the subtle arts of sarcasm, thank you.

Just because I understand it, doesn’t mean I have to be amused by it. Responding inappropriately to sarcasm brings its own joy.

Why couldn't you change the brake shoes of your car? Women are not inherently impeded in learning how to operate or fix a car.

I do know how to do things like change the oil; clean, gap and change spark plugs; and, for that matter, change brake shoes (having watched my friends do it). What I lack is the space and the tools, and in some cases, the physical strength required. The tools are expensive and none of my friends who has the tools is willing to lend them, they are however willing to do the job. In return I either cook for them or take them out to dinner.

I’m quite versed in the subtle arts of sarcasm, thank you.

Just because I understand it, doesn’t mean I have to be amused by it. Responding inappropriately to sarcasm brings its own joy.

Then you must be easily amused. How nice for you.

I hold doors open for anyone behind me, man, woman, child, it doesn't matter, and i hold the door open for anyone whose arms are full. As for chivalry, i have no problem with a man holding the door open for me, or offering to pay for dinner, but i also have no problem if he chooses not to do that. I would never want anyone to do it just because they think they have to, but because they want to.

When i worked at my local AIDS organization, a male co-worker of mine used to want to hold the door open for me all the time, even when his arms were full. I wouldn't let him do it in that situation though. One night we were walking home and i had a cold, i wasn't wearing a jacket because i had gotten a ride to work that day, so he gave me his to wear. He wasn't sexist, at least i never go that impression from him, he was just being considerate, i thought it was nice. We would take the garbage out at the end of every week and we had to go to an underground parking lot at the back of the building. Only one of us could leave the office when it was open and he would always go because he never wanted me to go by myself, especially when it was dark. Some people may find that condescending, but i know it wasn't about him thinking i couldn't take care of myself, it was just about him not wanting me to be hurt. He came across kind of flirty with me too though, so maybe he just liked me.

Of course, he once told me that the only reason guys hold the door open for women is so they can stare at their asses..lol. So one day i turned the tables and held the door open for him. He just laughed because he knew exactly why i did it.

Sorry for that, guess you didn't need my life story...lol.

Chivalry is a slightly sexist concept. It is the idea that a man should help a woman out in any way she needs, and do certain things for her. (open doors, pull up chairs, ect.) It also encompasses the idea of protecting a woman in danger Even the positive parts of chivalry have negative connotations. If you help a person by rote, every time, you give the impression that they in fact require that help. If you pay for meals, or do all the hard labor, or earn all the money, you make your partner dependent on you. So I ask you this: What should we do with chivalry. Does it need to be redefined? or gotten rid of entirely? What do you think?
Chivalry is a rather moribund concept, but manners never go out of style. I will be mannerly to everyone I meet, regardless of gender, age or virtually anything else. Manners are a form of social lubricant, helping us avoid rubbing each other raw.

If you don't like the door held open, don't like my standing until you sit down, don't like my holding your chair, don't want me doing other things I consider good manners, fine. Just tell me and I'll stop. Of course I'll probably stop hanging around with you as well. Just because you're an ass, doesn't mean I have to give up being mannerly. :)

I hold doors open for anyone behind me, man, woman, child, it doesn't matter, and i hold the door open for anyone whose arms are full. As for chivalry, i have no problem with a man holding the door open for me, or offering to pay for dinner, but i also have no problem if he chooses not to do that. I would never want anyone to do it just because they think they have to, but because they want to.

When i worked at my local AIDS organization, a male co-worker of mine used to want to hold the door open for me all the time, even when his arms were full. I wouldn't let him do it in that situation though. One night we were walking home and i had a cold, i wasn't wearing a jacket because i had gotten a ride to work that day, so he gave me his to wear. He wasn't sexist, at least i never go that impression from him, he was just being considerate, i thought it was nice. We would take the garbage out at the end of every week and we had to go to an underground parking lot at the back of the building. Only one of us could leave the office when it was open and he would always go because he never wanted me to go by myself, especially when it was dark. Some people may find that condescending, but i know it wasn't about him thinking i couldn't take care of myself, it was just about him not wanting me to be hurt. He came across kind of flirty with me too though, so maybe he just liked me.
[ applauds ]

Thanks:)

What does Chivalry have to do with gender roles? :confused:

Chivalry is a medieval code of honour for Knights, originating in France (and possibly Spain). Nothing more, nothing less.
Hay! I tried that line on the first page get your own material:mad: