NationStates Jolt Archive

If one were to convert from Judaism, which he never practiced nor beleived in, to Islam, which he now practices and beleives in, would he be considered a Jew or a Muslim?

He would be a Muslim by faith and a Jew by blood. The problem here is that Judaism gets confused with being Jewish. (I am neither by the way, nor am I a muslim)

He would be considered both. This is a false dichotomy.

He would be a Muslim by faith and a Jew by blood. The problem here is that Judaism gets confused with being Jewish. (I am neither by the way, nor am I a muslim)

Exactly. There is a Jewish faith and there is a Jewish ethnicity.

Ask Keruvalia.

The very fact that they would be labelled either is a small tragedy.

please insert the rant of your choice about the evils of organised religions that the atheists will nod sagely and tut about and the theists will stubbornly ignore with their "Faith (willful ignorance) is virtue" attitudes.... HERE:

Ask Keruvalia.
Thats were this whole question is coming from:p

He would be a Muslim by faith and a Jew by blood. The problem here is that Judaism gets confused with being Jewish. (I am neither by the way, nor am I a muslim)
ditto

The question is not about what he, or she, would be labelled as by others, but about how the person concerned should think of themselves. What social groups would they identify with? In the Arab - Israeli conflict where would they be?

We all, whether we like it or not identify ourselves with people who are like us in some ways. I, for example am an Englishman, and I identify myself as such, despite living half a world away from the UK.

Thats were this whole question is coming from:p
kind of what I figured. I was just hoping it wasn't and was looking for confirmation without actually asking.

He is Muslim by faith, Jewish by heritage. You are always Jewish if your mother was.

Exactly. There is a Jewish faith and there is a Jewish ethnicity.

Is this a product of religious isolationist policies? or do you actually believe that groups of people who have inhabited the same geographical region for millenia are naturally going to be greatly genetically distinct? I'd like to see a genetic comparison between palestinians and israelies not of european descent. I somehow don't think the parties in question would like the probable results.

The question is not about what he, or she, would be labelled as by others, but about how the person concerned should think of themselves. What social groups would they identify with? In the Arab - Israeli conflict where would they be?

We all, whether we like it or not identify ourselves with people who are like us in some ways. I, for example am an Englishman, and I identify myself as such, despite living half a world away from the UK.
um...he should consider himself whatever he wants to consider himself...there is no "should"

kind of what I figured. I was just hoping it wasn't and was looking for confirmation without actually asking.

He is Muslim by faith, Jewish by heritage. You are always Jewish if your mother was.

Buts thats stupid..why should you automatically be a certian religion...even if you dont beleive in it, just because your mother was.

It doesnt make any sense.

um...he should consider himself whatever he wants to consider himself...there is no "should"

While I agree with you, it seems that there is some kind of motive behind the question, and someone is looking for advice as to how to think of themselves.

Is this a product of religious isolationist policies? or do you actually believe that groups of people who have inhabited the same geographical region for millenia are naturally going to be greatly genetically distinct? I'd like to see a genetic comparison between palestinians and israelies not of european descent. I somehow don't think the parties in question would like the probable results.
actually, jews were willing to marry gentiles. It was the gentiles unwilling to marry in...and if you want evidence of genetic differences, research Tay-Sachs among Ashkenazic jews.

Buts thats stupid..why should you automatically be a certian religion...even if you dont beleive in it, just because your mother was.

It doesnt make any sense.

Dont confuse Jewishness with Judaism. I am English because my mother was. No religious overtones involved, it does not make me an Anglican any more than having a Jewish mother makes you a member of the Judaic religion.

Buts thats stupid..why should you automatically be a certian religion...even if you dont beleive in it, just because your mother was.

It doesnt make any sense.
because when you are dealing with a 4 or 5000 year old religion that was forced to intermarry, it becomes an ethnic group that cannot be seperated any easier than I can "remove" my Irish heritage. Judaism is not based on conversion, it is based on bloodline. Always has, always will. There is a Jewish ethnic group, and a Jewish religion. They are not always one in the same.

actually, jews were willing to marry gentiles. It was the gentiles unwilling to marry in...and if you want evidence of genetic differences, research Tay-Sachs among Ashkenazic jews.

There WAS some intermarriage..you just didnt really notice it because, well lets face it...there just arnt THAT many Jews in comparison to Christians or Muslims.

actually, jews were willing to marry gentiles.

No, they weren't (and many still aren't). The Bible prohibits it, and the Rabbis reiterated the condemnation.

That's one of the reasons Tay-Sachs is such a problem. That, and the fact that it was tradition in many families to marry cousins to one another.

it becomes an ethnic group that cannot be seperated any easier than I can "remove" my Irish heritage

A little epsom salts in your bath water will clear that right up. :D

No, they weren't (and many still aren't). The Bible prohibits it, and the Rabbis reiterated the condemnation.

That's one of the reasons Tay-Sachs is such a problem. That, and the fact that it was tradition in many families to marry cousins to one another.
Hmm, I ought to tell that to my two Catholic aunts and their Jewish husbands.

There WAS some intermarriage..you just didnt really notice it because, well lets face it...there just arnt THAT many Jews in comparison to Christians or Muslims.
I'm not saying today. I'm saying when it could easily be classified "jew" or "gentile".
Or back when christmas was a day to go murder your jewish neighbors. You know, Pogrums and such?

No, they weren't (and many still aren't). The Bible prohibits it, and the Rabbis reiterated the condemnation.

That's one of the reasons Tay-Sachs is such a problem. That, and the fact that it was tradition in many families to marry cousins to one another.Incorrect. There is no biblical ban. And the issue now comes from being told you can't marry these people because they will kill us for the last 2000 years. It kinda become ingrained.

And it has nothing to do with cousins, and that is a nice bit o' bull.

A little epsom salts in your bath water will clear that right up.
*scratches crotch*
will it clear up this rash too?;)

I believe that people should follow whatever religion makes them feel the most spiritual and in touch with the world. For example, I grew up as a Protestant, but once I was able to branch out and study other religions, I found that Mahayana Buddhism is what makes me happiest. I consider myself to be Buddhist and hope that others consider me Buddhist also.

Incorrect. There is no biblical ban.

Check Deuteronomy.

And the issue now comes from being told you can't marry these people because they will kill us for the last 2000 years. It kinda become ingrained.

No, that has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's a question of assimilation. Intermarriage is very strictly banned.

And it has nothing to do with cousins, and that is a nice bit o' bull.

What's bull? That it has something to do with Tay-Sachs? Perhaps not, I don't claim to be any sort of expert. But it's definitely true that marrying cousins was a regular practice in many families. It was in mine, for instance.

I found that Mahayana Buddhism is what makes me happiest. I consider myself to be Buddhist and hope that others consider me Buddhist also.

Nice! I found Buddhism when I was 15 years old and practiced it (with Kwan Yin as my patroness) until my conversion to Islam in November 2004 - when I was 32. That's 17 years! (woo!) And people accuse me of changing religions like some chage hair color ... hrmph.

I still have a small shrine to Kwan Yin that I burn incense in twice a day. I'm told this isn't very Muslim of me, but I explained to the Imam that we don't worship the Buddha, we just pay homage.

1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and shall cast out many nations before thee, the Hittite, and the Girgashite, and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 and when the LORD thy God shall deliver them up before thee, and thou shalt smite them; then thou shalt utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them; 3 neither shalt thou make marriages with them: thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

It's true that this passage doesn't refer to all intermarriage, but the Rabbis broadened the provision.

Check Deuteronomy.



No, that has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's a question of assimilation. Intermarriage is very strictly banned.



What's bull? That it has something to do with Tay-Sachs? Perhaps not, I don't claim to be any sort of expert. But it's definitely true that marrying cousins was a regular practice in many families. It was in mine, for instance.
the part that is bull is that it is far to broad of a generalization. You claimed Tay Sachs, common in all Ashkenazic jewish populations, was from marrying cousins. That is too many countries with too wide ranging customs. Russian custom is hugely different from German and Polish. Not to mention cousins would not permit the transfer across such a wide area. It also does not appear in a "founders effect" type situation, which makes cousin style intermarriage unlikely in most cases.

Additionally, if you could give me a passage where it is banned, I would gladly look it up. It has been years since I last even thought to look at Deut, so I could be wrong. But I do know that at the very least, as much as it was self-imposed, it was imposed from the outside too.

edit: you posted the verse...lemme just read it.

the part that is bull is that it is far to broad of a generalization. You claimed Tay Sachs, common in all Ashkenazic jewish populations, was from marrying cousins. That is too many countries with too wide ranging customs. Russian custom is hugely different from German and Polish. Not to mention cousins would not permit the transfer across such a wide area. It also does not appear in a "founders effect" type situation, which makes cousin style intermarriage unlikely in most cases.

Fair enough.

It's true that this passage doesn't refer to all intermarriage, but the Rabbis broadened the provision.
k. I concede. But I maintain that it was enforced on both sides...not just from the Jews.

This is what I get for only reading the Bible for its literary value. *shrug*

Nice! I found Buddhism when I was 15 years old and practiced it (with Kwan Yin as my patroness) until my conversion to Islam in November 2004 - when I was 32. That's 17 years! (woo!) And people accuse me of changing religions like some chage hair color ... hrmph.

I still have a small shrine to Kwan Yin that I burn incense in twice a day. I'm told this isn't very Muslim of me, but I explained to the Imam that we don't worship the Buddha, we just pay homage.
haha...try explaining how I have christian, jewish, muslim, buddhist, basically you pick a religion that I've ever looked at down to voodoo and santeria, and I have belifes from it, yet dont believe in religion or a god.

That gets me some mighty odd looks very often.

k. I concede. But I maintain that it was enforced on both sides...not just from the Jews.

Definitely. The persecution of the Jews was one of the reasons the religious identity was retained. The US Jewish community is assimilating because it is tolerated, and that is causing a great deal of distress among the more traditionalist types.

Hmm, I ought to tell that to my two Catholic aunts and their Jewish husbands.

My two Jewish uncles have also married catholics...thats strange :eek:

Although I dont think they are actually Jewish as they have sort of dropped religion.

I had this all written out, but then I accidently closed the screen. Here goes again...

I agree with some of the posts, disagree with some, and partially agree with some. I agree with the majority votes on the poll so far - someone who converts to Islam is no longer Jewish, but a Muslim.

First, we don't draw a dichotomy in Judaism between an adherent of Judaism and Jewish ethnicity or Jewish "race." In fact, I was always taught that there was no such thing as a Jewish race. Someone born of a Jewish mother is as Jewish as a person who is not, but converts. Being born of a Jewish mother does not mean that you are born into her ethnicity or race, although this may be true as well. Rather, as Rabbi Hayim Donin, one of the greatest Jewish commentators on Halacha this century, wrote in To Be a Jew, "the child is born into the mother's religion." This is critical to this question - the child isn't seen as being born into the mother's ethnicity or race, but her religion.

In addition, it is Halacha (Jewish law) that a Jew that converts to another religion is no longer a Jew. He isn't seen as being half Jewish; no longer a Jew by religion, but a Jew by ethnicity. He is seen as being 0% Jewish. In the same respect, someone who converts to Judaism is seen as being 100% Jewish. He isn't seen as being Jewish by religion, but not Jewish by ethnicity.

The State of Israel has followed these Halachic rulings when determining who is allowed to make aliyah under the Law of Return too. This states that whoever is a Jew can immigrate to Israel, in short. However, Jews that converted to other religions like Christianity have not been allowed, because they are no longer considered Jews.

For a more comprehensive list of the Halachic rulings and the court rulings in Israel, see Rabbi Stuart Federow's page, and scroll down on the left toolbar to see where it says "Messianic Jews" "Jews for Jesus" and "Hebrew Christians" are not Jews.
http://whatjewsbelieve.org/

Secondly, is important to look at what exactly ethnicity is. While there are many groups within Judaism that share an ethnicity, there is no one single Jewish ethnic group. The ethnicity of Askhenazi Jews and Sefardi Jews is quite different, not to mention Jewish groups such as the Falashas.

Ethnicity is not only defined by shared genetic traits, i.e. "race", but by culture, religion, etc. For a Jew to fall into a Jewish ethnic group, they would have to retain the cultural practices of that ethnic group. By converting, they fail to do this, and exclude themselves from that ethnic group. This can fall along the lines of acculturation or cultural loss.

If we look up Jew in the dictionary and give a strict interpretation, a convert to another religion also does not fit.


1. An adherent of Judaism as a religion or culture.
2. A member of the widely dispersed people originally descended from the ancient Hebrews and sharing an ethnic heritage based on Judaism.
3. A native or inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Judah.


Converts out of Judaism fail to meet the first definition because they no longer adhere to Judaism.
They fail to meet the third definition because that refers to the ancient occupants of Judah.
The second definition requires two things. That they are descended from ancient Hebrews and that they share the ethnic heritage based on Judaism. Because a convert to another religion no longer shares that ethnicity (of which adherence to a common religion is required), and their cultural loss excludes Judaism from their ethnicity, they fail to meet the criteria in definition two.

I had this all written out, but then I accidently closed the screen. Here goes again...

I agree with some of the posts, disagree with some, and partially agree with some. I agree with the majority votes on the poll so far - someone who converts to Islam is no longer Jewish, but a Muslim.

First, we don't draw a dichotomy in Judaism between an adherent of Judaism and Jewish ethnicity or Jewish "race." In fact, I was always taught that there was no such thing as a Jewish race. Someone born of a Jewish mother is as Jewish as a person who is not, but converts. Being born of a Jewish mother does not mean that you are born into her ethnicity or race, although this may be true as well. Rather, as Rabbi Hayim Donin, one of the greatest Jewish commentators on Halacha this century, wrote in To Be a Jew, "the child is born into the mother's religion." This is critical to this question - the child isn't seen as being born into the mother's ethnicity or race, but her religion.

In addition, it is Halacha (Jewish law) that a Jew that converts to another religion is no longer a Jew. He isn't seen as being half Jewish; no longer a Jew by religion, but a Jew by ethnicity. He is seen as being 0% Jewish. In the same respect, someone who converts to Judaism is seen as being 100% Jewish. He isn't seen as being Jewish by religion, but not Jewish by ethnicity.

The State of Israel has followed these Halachic rulings when determining who is allowed to make aliyah under the Law of Return too. This states that whoever is a Jew can immigrate to Israel, in short. However, Jews that converted to other religions like Christianity have not been allowed, because they are no longer considered Jews.

For a more comprehensive list of the Halachic rulings and the court rulings in Israel, see Rabbi Stuart Federow's page, and scroll down on the left toolbar to see where it says "Messianic Jews" "Jews for Jesus" and "Hebrew Christians" are not Jews.
http://whatjewsbelieve.org/

Secondly, is important to look at what exactly ethnicity is. While there are many groups within Judaism that share an ethnicity, there is no one single Jewish ethnic group. The ethnicity of Askhenazi Jews and Sefardi Jews is quite different, not to mention Jewish groups such as the Falashas.

Ethnicity is not only defined by shared genetic traits, i.e. "race", but by culture, religion, etc. For a Jew to fall into a Jewish ethnic group, they would have to retain the cultural practices of that ethnic group. By converting, they fail to do this, and exclude themselves from that ethnic group. This can fall along the lines of acculturation or cultural loss.

If we look up Jew in the dictionary and give a strict interpretation, a convert to another religion also does not fit.



Converts out of Judaism fail to meet the first definition because they no longer adhere to Judaism.
They fail to meet the third definition because that refers to the ancient occupants of Judah.
The second definition requires two things. That they are descended from ancient Hebrews and that they share the ethnic heritage based on Judaism. Because a convert to another religion no longer shares that ethnicity (of which adherence to a common religion is required), and their cultural loss excludes Judaism from their ethnicity, they fail to meet the criteria in definition two.

*Applauds*

*Orgasms*

Dude, this is EXACTLY what I was trying to say but couldnt because I lacked your brains.

I love you for bringing this up and spelling it out.

You are my hero.

Hand the rights of this thread over, from the Atlantian Islands, to you, Tropical Sands, my son. :p

Keruvalia....READ THIS.

Bump because I think Tropical Sands post was very important and I want Keruvalia to see it.

*Applauds*

*Orgasms*

Dude, this is EXACTLY what I was trying to say but couldnt because I lacked your brains.

I love you for bringing this up and spelling it out.

You are my hero.

Hand the rights of this thread over, from the Atlantian Islands, to you, Tropical Sands, my son. :p

Keruvalia....READ THIS.
In reality, there is no such thing as an "ethnic group". there is no difference outside of culture between a pole, a russian, a german, etc.
And ethnic group is a mental thing. It exists because people have decided it does and consider themselves a part of it. Calling myself a Jew by ethnicity is no different than calling myself German by ethnicity.

If one were to convert from Judaism, which he never practiced nor beleived in, to Islam, which he now practices and beleives in, would he be considered a Jew or a Muslim?

He would be a traitor to his heritage and his people and his God.
He fell a few levels down.
---------------------------------------------

The Heirarchy of Religions According to Me

1. My Church
2. Other Christian Denominations
3. Judaism
4. Buddhism
5. Hinduism
6. Native/Tribal Religions
7. Islam
8. Agnosticism
9. Other Monotheism
10. Atheist
11. Cultist

He would be a traitor to his heritage and his people and his God.
He fell a few levels down.
---------------------------------------------

The Heirarchy of Religions According to Me

1. My Church
2. Other Christian Denominations
3. Judaism
4. Buddhism
5. Hinduism
6. Native/Tribal Religions
7. Islam
8. Agnosticism
9. Other Monotheism
10. Atheist
11. Cultist


damnit...I'm not at the bottom yet?! *sigh*

*scuttles off to find a good cult to join*

What? I want Kool-Aid!

damnit...I'm not at the bottom yet?! *sigh*

*scuttles off to find a good cult to join*

What? I want Kool-Aid!

*Laughing Hysterically*

I like you. You're funny! :p :D

He would be a traitor to his heritage and his people and his God.
He fell a few levels down.

Just a little correction. The Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God. Converting from Judism to Islam isn't being a traitor to his God, it's just changing the way God is worshiped.

Just a little correction. The Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God. Converting from Judism to Islam isn't being a traitor to his God, it's just changing the way God is worshiped.

I disagree.

From the last 1,200 years of Islamic history of bloodshed, my own conclusion is-

Allah is not God. God is not Allah. Allah is Satan. Satan is Allah.

Jehovah is God and God is Jehovah.

But not Allah.

I disagree.

From the last 1,200 years of Islamic history of bloodshed, my own conclusion is-

Allah is not God. God is not Allah. Allah is Satan. Satan is Allah.

Jehovah is God and God is Jehovah.

But not Allah.
Then why do Muslims believe in both the old and new testaments?

Then why do Muslims believe in both the old and new testaments?

They don't believe alot of the New Testament, or they'd be Christians, believing Jesus was the Son of God and Savior of the World.

Old Testament- they've completely screwed it up. Their account is way different than the Old Testament.

Jews believe the Old Testament and the Torah, as Christians do, but that does not make them Christians. They don't think they worship the same god.
They don't believe Jehovah and Christ are the same being. The only religion that claims our gods are all the same is Christianity.

I'm pretty sure that you're only Jewish if you have a Jewfro.

They don't believe alot of the New Testament, or they'd be Christians, believing Jesus was the Son of God and Savior of the World.

Old Testament- they've completely screwed it up. Their account is way different than the Old Testament.

Jews believe the Old Testament and the Torah, as Christians do, but that does not make them Christians. They don't think they worship the same god.
They don't believe Jehovah and Christ are the same being. The only religion that claims our gods are all the same is Christianity.
iirc (Keru, if you pop into this thread, please feel free to correct me) They do follow the NT. That doesn't mean they would be Christian, as the Koran superceeds the other texts.
Jews believe in the torah, which IS the OT.I don't claim that the religions are the same, but I do maintain that the supreme god is the same.

In reality, there is no such thing as an "ethnic group". there is no difference outside of culture between a pole, a russian, a german, etc.
And ethnic group is a mental thing. It exists because people have decided it does and consider themselves a part of it. Calling myself a Jew by ethnicity is no different than calling myself German by ethnicity.

So do you dismiss notions such as Nordic, Germanic, Slavic..etc?

Just a little correction. The Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God. Converting from Judism to Islam isn't being a traitor to his God, it's just changing the way God is worshiped.

I don't want to derail the thread, but since this thread is about conversion from Judaism I thought I should point something out. According to Orthodox Judaism, only Jews and Muslims actually worship the same God. Christians do not. However, a Jew that converts to Islam is no longer considered a Jew. It wouldn't be a stretch to consider them a traitor to Judaism or to God (like Shabbetai Zevi, for example).

In reality, there is no such thing as an "ethnic group". there is no difference outside of culture between a pole, a russian, a german, etc.
And ethnic group is a mental thing. It exists because people have decided it does and consider themselves a part of it. Calling myself a Jew by ethnicity is no different than calling myself German by ethnicity.

I think I may know what you're getting at, with some modifications. My understanding is that "race" is an arbitrary classification, and there really is no such thing.

Ethnicity is actually defined by genetics, culture, religion, language, etc. Many groups share the same genetics, the same culture, religion, language, traditions, etc. That would make them ethnic groups. Ashkenazi Jews are an ethnic group, however "Jews" in general aren't an ethnic group. Rather Jews are made up of multiple ethnic groups.

German, on the other hand, refers to nationality or location. You can be a German and a member of a different ethnic group. For example, you could be an Ashkenazi Jew who happens to be German.

I don't want to derail the thread, but since this thread is about conversion from Judaism I thought I should point something out. According to Orthodox Judaism, only Jews and Muslims actually worship the same God. Christians do not. However, a Jew that converts to Islam is no longer considered a Jew. It wouldn't be a stretch to consider them a traitor to Judaism or to God (like Shabbetai Zevi, for example).

Fully agree....However, the person who I was arguing with (about this concept) wishes to pull the baby routine and deny/ignore everything I/you have presented him.

Oh well...cant say we didnt show him. :p

Again, good post.

I think I may know what you're getting at, with some modifications. My understanding is that "race" is an arbitrary classification, and there really is no such thing.

Ethnicity is actually defined by genetics, culture, religion, language, etc. Many groups share the same genetics, the same culture, religion, language, traditions, etc. That would make them ethnic groups. Ashkenazi Jews are an ethnic group, however "Jews" in general aren't an ethnic group. Rather Jews are made up of multiple ethnic groups.

German, on the other hand, refers to nationality or location. You can be a German and a member of a different ethnic group. For example, you could be an Ashkenazi Jew who happens to be German.

Ok...but would you classify a French Jew, and Russian Jew as members of the same "ethnic group"?

So do you dismiss notions such as Nordic, Germanic, Slavic..etc?
In general, yes. Just as much as I reject race.

I think I may know what you're getting at, with some modifications. My understanding is that "race" is an arbitrary classification, and there really is no such thing.

Ethnicity is actually defined by genetics, culture, religion, language, etc. Many groups share the same genetics, the same culture, religion, language, traditions, etc. That would make them ethnic groups. Ashkenazi Jews are an ethnic group, however "Jews" in general aren't an ethnic group. Rather Jews are made up of multiple ethnic groups.

German, on the other hand, refers to nationality or location. You can be a German and a member of a different ethnic group. For example, you could be an Ashkenazi Jew who happens to be German.
Race, as far as I'm concerned, is fully arbitrary and doesn't truely exist.
I argue that ethnicity is just as arbitrary. I live in the US, but consider myself ethnically Jewish, as well as Irish, English, Scotch, French, German, Russian, et. al. There is no more logic behind it than there is behind race, so far as I can see. It exists because we tend to agree it does.

Also, you do make the important distinction. When someone is "Jewish" by ethnicity, they are refering to Ashkenazic Jewish, not just Jewisn in general. Most people don'
t know the phrase ashkenazic tho.

Ok...but would you classify a French Jew, and Russian Jew as members of the same "ethnic group"?
if they are both Ashkenazic by bloodline, then yes. Yes I would. Ethnicity isn't nessicarily tied to location.

iirc (Keru, if you pop into this thread, please feel free to correct me) They do follow the NT. That doesn't mean they would be Christian, as the Koran superceeds the other texts.

Not really. Some bits of the NT are taken into consideration as Jesus is considered a prophet, but it's a very abridged version which maintains only what Jesus taught and ignored all of the epistles of Paul and whatnot.

Muslims also adhere to a lot of Torah. I even still cling to Pesach, Sukkot, Tisha B'av, Purim, etc.

I had this all written out, but then I accidently closed the screen. Here goes again...

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=45132

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=160964

In the words of the Talmud (Sanhedrin 44a), "A Jew, although he has transgressed, is a Jew."

Your assessment is incorrect. Religion does not a Jew make. Period.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=45132

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=160964

In the words of the Talmud (Sanhedrin 44a), "A Jew, although he has transgressed, is a Jew."

Your assessment is incorrect. Religion does not a Jew make. Period.
hear, hear.

hear, hear.

You believe this?

Personally, I think that these guys only made the "law" like this in an effort to keep Jews from converting to other religions. Sort of said...look no matter what, your Jewish.

Do you honestly beleive that if you worship Allah...and totally seperate yourself from Judaism, your still a Jew?

Would you say that Jesus's disciples were still Jewish, after they converted to Christianity?

Would you say that Jesus's disciples were still Jewish, after they converted to Christianity?

Ethnically? Yes.

You believe this?

Personally, I think that these guys only made the "law" like this in an effort to keep Jews from converting to other religions. Sort of said...look no matter what, your Jewish.

Do you honestly beleive that if you worship Allah...and totally seperate yourself from Judaism, your still a Jew?

Would you say that Jesus's disciples were still Jewish, after they converted to Christianity?

Would you say that this forum's various Catholic Atheists actually exist?

Would you say that this forum's various Catholic Atheists actually exist?

No...They're either Catholic, or they're atheist.

One could be Catholic born and raised, and become atheist though.

Do you honestly beleive that if you worship Allah...and totally seperate yourself from Judaism, your still a Jew?


As much as you believe that not observing the sabbath and eating pork *doesn't* separate you from Judaism, but no matter how much you separate yourself from Judaism, you're still a Jew and I'm not. Hypocrite.

Unlike you, I *do* keep kosher and I do my best to keep the sabbath and I've fulfilled the mitzvot of the brit milah with my son, and in all ways possible I keep Torah and the commandments (you admit to deliberately breaking at least 2 of the major ones). I still do a full seder at home and at the synagogue every Pesach. I stay in the sukkah during Sukkot. I even don talit during daylight hours and you say *I* separate myself?

Incidently, Abraham called God "Elah", you know. Allah, Elah ... same damn thing. Abraham also built the Kabah (the big box Muslims pray towards).

The fact that you're so mired in self-loathing anger clouds your judgement. You are far more separate from Judaism than I have ever been in my entire life. You must now, therefore, admit you're not a Jew and be done with these lies.

You believe this?

Personally, I think that these guys only made the "law" like this in an effort to keep Jews from converting to other religions. Sort of said...look no matter what, your Jewish.

Do you honestly beleive that if you worship Allah...and totally seperate yourself from Judaism, your still a Jew?

Would you say that Jesus's disciples were still Jewish, after they converted to Christianity?
no, I don't believe it. I've just been arguing it for the hell of it:rolleyes:

You still fail to seperate Jewish the religion from Jewish the ethnic group. Everyone who lives in Ireland is Irish. Not all are ethnically Irish. Same concept.

As Keru pointed out, Elah, Allah...same root. Same as Salam and Shalom. Its just a damn word. Look past it.

There was no christianity for the disciples to convert to. Christianity didn't become a seperate religion for a few hundred years. It was still a sect of Judaism untill the circumcision covenant was broken.

Also, Keruvalia holds Jewish kosher and tradition better than most Jews. He is truly religiously a mix of Judaism and Islam.

I disagree.

From the last 1,200 years of Islamic history of bloodshed, my own conclusion is-

Allah is not God. God is not Allah. Allah is Satan. Satan is Allah.

Jehovah is God and God is Jehovah.

But not Allah.
A "Christian" should never talk about the bloodshed of another religion. S/He should study the history of "Christianity",----the religion of "Peace"???

In answer to another post--Jesus and his followers were considered a sect of Judism. They still celebrated all of the Jewish laws and feasts. It took several hundred years before Christians evolved into a different religion.

As an aside, when Jesus broke the bread and drank the wine he said a prayer. Very few Christians know the prayer he said. Every Jewish child knows the prayer. On another point, Jesus was killed on Wednesday, not on Friday. The Sabath was a "special Sabath" not the weekly sabath. ( All the Jews at the time understood this, the Gentiles that took over the Christian sect didn't realize this so made Friday the day o his death.

Very few Christians know the prayer he said. Every Jewish child knows the prayer.

This deserves a ....

pwned.

This deserves a ....

pwned.

Yeah, I dont think anyone was arguing that Jesus wasnt Jewish.

Yeah, I dont think anyone was arguing that Jesus wasnt Jewish.

You, goyim, don't know the prayer he said.

A "Christian" should never talk about the bloodshed of another religion. S/He should study the history of "Christianity",----the religion of "Peace"???

In answer to another post--Jesus and his followers were considered a sect of Judism. They still celebrated all of the Jewish laws and feasts. It took several hundred years before Christians evolved into a different religion.

As an aside, when Jesus broke the bread and drank the wine he said a prayer. Very few Christians know the prayer he said. Every Jewish child knows the prayer. On another point, Jesus was killed on Wednesday, not on Friday. The Sabath was a "special Sabath" not the weekly sabath. ( All the Jews at the time understood this, the Gentiles that took over the Christian sect didn't realize this so made Friday the day o his death.
You can still see a strong relationship between the two religions, particularly with some protestant sects...the Our Father, Our Lord, and the several prayers that start out "Blessed art thou, our lord, our god, king of the universe who has..."

Oddly enough, not a single christian friend knows whats going on when I bring them to temple and we spout out the good ol' Motzie and Hagafen.

kind of what I figured. I was just hoping it wasn't and was looking for confirmation without actually asking.

He is Muslim by faith, Jewish by heritage. You are always Jewish if your mother was.

So,if my grandfather was a nazi,i'm always a nazi?(if it makes you happy,if he's the father of my mother):rolleyes:

You believe this?

Personally, I think that these guys only made the "law" like this in an effort to keep Jews from converting to other religions. Sort of said...look no matter what, your Jewish.

Do you honestly beleive that if you worship Allah...and totally seperate yourself from Judaism, your still a Jew?

Would you say that Jesus's disciples were still Jewish, after they converted to Christianity?Yes

This depends. If we're talking "Jew" as in ethnically Khazarian or Hebrew, then yeah, you're still Jewish. If we're just talking religion, then you're a convert to Islam, and thus Muslim.

This depends. If we're talking "Jew" as in ethnically Khazarian or Hebrew, then yeah, you're still Jewish. If we're just talking religion, then you're a convert to Islam, and thus Muslim.

Hence, a Muslim Jew. Bingo.