NationStates Jolt Archive

You know when I was younger I used to have a lot of faith in the government of the United States. Even when I saw it do bad things, I always believe it was isolated.

I joined the military to fight next to my brothers and sisters to defend all that America represents. I worked hard to become a productive member of her society and to vocally support what I view her to stand for.

Unfortunately, now I know better in regards to the government.

Every one of the freedoms we hold up as a symbol of why the government of America is so great is a freedom we had to pay for with blood, mostly blood shed by civilians at the hands of the government. The government has repeated been responsible for brutally beating protesters excercising the freedom to assemble. We have treated Atheist and pagans (natives) brutally in the past for excercising their freedom of religion. We have censored books and ideas throughout our history. We treated other races as subhuman. Fortunately, all of these things are in the past, but it's hard to be surprised by recent events. They are simply upkeeping tradition.

Today, we know about the bias of the death penalty, yet we continue it. We know that gays have every right to form loving unions with one another yet we don't cry foul that government doesn't recognize this basic right. We know that states like California and Texas were hispanic in their founding and we act like the fact that so many people there are hispanic like it's a problem. The California Constitution was bilingual when California was a country, but people get pissed if a street sign is.

Now states actively and knowingly throw out Supreme Court decisions to declare sharing a dildo with your partner "distributiion of illegal devices", and that the Christian God is recognized by the government, prayer in school, a conceptus is a person and that doctors who kill them are committing murder (ignoring the hypocrisy of not placing any blame on the woman in this 'murder'), that gay unions will not be recognized, the DOMA (dear God how did anyone ever think this was okay).

So what's the upside? Am I just complaining? Nope. See, what's so evil about America is also what's so wonderful. Americans face the corruption of thier government down again and again and again. What makes America so wonderful is not the government, is not our rights, is not our military prowess, is not our economy. It's that Americans have an undying faith in truth and justice and the "American Way". In the face of history and unbelievable odds, Americans keep rising up again and again to change the injustices that are institutionalized. A rise up occurs and slavery ends. Another one and blacks get the vote. Another one gender equality begins to occur. Another one and blacks start to see equality. Another one and the enrollment of hispanics in colleges increases in a couple of years by like 1000%. Another one and divorce is viewed differently.

We won't stop. We don't stop. So the question isn't if we'll eventually rise up and tell our government we won't tolerate Gitmo and Iraq and the denial of LGBT rights and the merging of Church and State, it's when.

I hope that finally the American people will once again take up the yoke of change and do what we've always done - reigned in our corrupt government and been a beacon of hope, democracy and the fight for civil rights across the globe. And this time, they won't be able to censor the visions of brutal beatings of protesters and the massive legal oppression against 'agitators'. The internet gives us a power we've never had before. Think positive Americans, because these efforts are so blatant that they evidence a desperation. They feel that a storm is in the air and they're trying to board up the windows. Peaceful revolution (at least on the part of the revolutionaries) is what makes America great. I'm happy to see that our hand is being forced on this one.

Am I the only electrically excited by the fact that America is a snake and we've come again to time to shed our skin and reform ourselves to higher level of civil rights and freedom? History says that they are doing exactly what the American government has always done. History also says that the peaceful revolutionaries win every time.

Well written and insightful. And thank you for taking up arms for an ideal that doesn't hold true but may someday.

Well written and insightful. And thank you for taking up arms for an ideal that doesn't hold true but may someday.

That's the point. It does hold true, it's just can't be found in the government. A couple of days ago somebody said that Europeans hate our government but love our people. They've got it right. The people of the US is where the American dream resides. We're not the government. We're a counter-balance to the government. The US Constitution set up checks and balances, but the one that we continually forget is that the people have more power than the entire engine. And we, as a whole, believe in an American government that is better than the one that exists, most people just don't realize it doesn't exist. Now, the government is forcing us into realizing it in very obvious ways and they are forcing us into a corner. The American people don't do well with corners. In every case in history, the 'liberals' win. The US has not had a trend toward becoming more conservative. They've had a trend towards become more liberal since the inception of the great ideal that the US represents. Like I said, history says that they are playing their part AND that our part is just beginning.

*applauds*

Sigged.

Your idea of a liberal government I can deal with. Unfortunately it's the Michael Moore version that seems to be the only Major Party alternative to the problems you mention - and I'm not certain that would be any more palatible.

You know when I was younger I used to have a lot of faith in the government of the United States. Even when I saw it do bad things, I always believe it was isolated.

I joined the military to fight next to my brothers and sisters to defend all that America represents. I worked hard to become a productive member of her society and to vocally support what I view her to stand for.

Unfortunately, now I know better in regards to the government.

Every one of the freedoms we hold up as a symbol of why the government of America is so great is a freedom we had to pay for with blood, mostly blood shed by civilians at the hands of the government. The government has repeated been responsible for brutally beating protesters excercising the freedom to assemble. We have treated Atheist and pagans (natives) brutally in the past for excercising their freedom of religion. We have censored books and ideas throughout our history. We treated other races as subhuman. Fortunately, all of these things are in the past, but it's hard to be surprised by recent events. They are simply upkeeping tradition.

Today, we know about the bias of the death penalty, yet we continue it. We know that gays have every right to form loving unions with one another yet we don't cry foul that government doesn't recognize this basic right. We know that states like California and Texas were hispanic in their founding and we act like the fact that so many people there are hispanic like it's a problem. The California Constitution was bilingual when California was a country, but people get pissed if a street sign is.

Now states actively and knowingly throw out Supreme Court decisions to declare sharing a dildo with your partner "distributiion of illegal devices", and that the Christian God is recognized by the government, prayer in school, a conceptus is a person and that doctors who kill them are committing murder (ignoring the hypocrisy of not placing any blame on the woman in this 'murder'), that gay unions will not be recognized, the DOMA (dear God how did anyone ever think this was okay).

So what's the upside? Am I just complaining? Nope. See, what's so evil about America is also what's so wonderful. Americans face the corruption of thier government down again and again and again. What makes America so wonderful is not the government, is not our rights, is not our military prowess, is not our economy. It's that Americans have an undying faith in truth and justice and the "American Way". In the face of history and unbelievable odds, Americans keep rising up again and again to change the injustices that are institutionalized. A rise up occurs and slavery ends. Another one and blacks get the vote. Another one gender equality begins to occur. Another one and blacks start to see equality. Another one and the enrollment of hispanics in colleges increases in a couple of years by like 1000%. Another one and divorce is viewed differently.

We won't stop. We don't stop. So the question isn't if we'll eventually rise up and tell our government we won't tolerate Gitmo and Iraq and the denial of LGBT rights and the merging of Church and State, it's when.

I hope that finally the American people will once again take up the yoke of change and do what we've always done - reigned in our corrupt government and been a beacon of hope, democracy and the fight for civil rights across the globe. And this time, they won't be able to censor the visions of brutal beatings of protesters and the massive legal oppression against 'agitators'. The internet gives us a power we've never had before. Think positive Americans, because these efforts are so blatant that they evidence a desperation. They feel that a storm is in the air and they're trying to board up the windows. Peaceful revolution (at least on the part of the revolutionaries) is what makes America great. I'm happy to see that our hand is being forced on this one.

Am I the only electrically excited by the fact that America is a snake and we've come again to time to shed our skin and reform ourselves to higher level of civil rights and freedom? History says that they are doing exactly what the American government has always done. History also says that the peaceful revolutionaries win every time.

I did not read that!

Your idea of a liberal government I can deal with. Unfortunately it's the Michael Moore version that seems to be the only Major Party alternative to the problems you mention - and I'm not certain that would be any more palatible.
Well, it wouldn't. Michael Moore is an overdramatising populist who is spreading his ideas primarily to make money, as near as I can tell...Neither vision of the USA will be satisfactory, and in the end someone will change one or the other. Extremes never prevail, except on the internet.

How true this rings... Though I'm not so sure on the issue of how you view the citizens of this country, since the government is in fact an effect and result of us as a people (if nothing else by our general apathy to alter the status quo). I think this is well illustrated in how much third parties are followed by the general populous... In the past, the people have weilded enough power through their vote to even unseat a political party run rampant, yet how little this is exercized at present by a group of voters (who are more and more becomming a minority in this nation) to see voting as a binary operation between two differing corrupt parties.

The best government is anywhere between moderate left and centre-left. That way, the economy wins, things get done, and the government does not become Big Brother.

How true this rings... Though I'm not so sure on the issue of how you view the citizens of this country, since the government is in fact an effect and result of us as a people (if nothing else by our general apathy to alter the status quo). I think this is well illustrated in how much third parties are followed by the general populous... In the past, the people have weilded enough power through their vote to even unseat a political party run rampant, yet how little this is exercized at present by a group of voters (who are more and more becomming a minority in this nation) to see voting as a binary operation between two differing corrupt parties.

That's the thing. The greatest changes on behalf of the government have not been because of a great change in voting trends or any such thing, but a major effort and demand by the people for change. Everyone talks about how the vote works as a means of revolution but the problem is that the voting system is designed to discourage the necessary change and most who finally get elected don't actually represent the groups or ideologies they claimed with rare exception. Our power is not as an electorate that acts through votes, but as an electorate that emerges and let's our will be known through demonstration and thus brings issues to the forefront with consistency until they can no longer be ignored by the government.

The party system is a design for corruption because it automatically polarizes debate and forces people to decide which of two or four or ten extremes they are willing to deal with. The party system is very near to the issues system in NS. That's why the American people are so much stronger than the American government.

I did not read that!

How helpful of you to note that. Please don't spam again.

Your idea of a liberal government I can deal with. Unfortunately it's the Michael Moore version that seems to be the only Major Party alternative to the problems you mention - and I'm not certain that would be any more palatible.

That's the thing. I don't think ANY party alternative will every truly represent the people. Our system doesn't allow us to actually create of government of the people any more than it allows us to create a jury of our peers.

Your idea of a liberal government I can deal with. Unfortunately it's the Michael Moore version that seems to be the only Major Party alternative to the problems you mention - and I'm not certain that would be any more palatible.
Do you honestly believe that the Democrats would enact Michael Moore type policies? The big corporations own that party, just like they own the other one.

Very well said.

Jocabia. I truly hope you are right. Another 8 years of neocon rule would threaten civilization as we know it.

Jocabia, its good to see citizens of this state and country who see things this way. Too often people are too blind to see this, or see the hypocracy and problems right in front of them. Hopefully you're right, and we will shed our skin like we have so many times before. And maybe it will come out better than I have seen, for although I love your optimism, I fear the next thing to be shed will be the blood of our countrymen.

Orwell... Among the most enlightened of men to ever walk among us.

Do you honestly believe that the Democrats would enact Michael Moore type policies? The big corporations own that party, just like they own the other one.No - not immediately. But the MM types are the ones who "let's (their) will be known through demonstration and thus brings issues to the forefront with consistency until they can no longer be ignored by the government".

Libertarians and Conservatives are not all that interested in protesting noisily because they are too busy trying to earn the money that the MM types tax away.

So, as per usual, the squeeky wheel gets the grease and lunatic left laws get enacted. (And the Gorporate Grease gets other lunacy enacted).

Jocabia, its good to see citizens of this state and country who see things this way. Too often people are too blind to see this, or see the hypocracy and problems right in front of them. Hopefully you're right, and we will shed our skin like we have so many times before. And maybe it will come out better than I have seen, for although I love your optimism, I fear the next thing to be shed will be the blood of our countrymen.

Actually, the blood of our countrymen has been required in every case I can think of. But not in civil war. The general case is that first they try to silence us through law. Then through intimidation. Then through violence on their part. And eventually when they knock us down enough and we keep getting back up stronger and more committed to the goal and with more of the populous on our side, they eventually tire and give in. That's the real American Way. Right now, we're somewhere in the law and intimidation part.

I must be clear though, I only advocate passive resistence. Violence is an act of desperation and the only ones who should feel the desperation of fighting a losing battle is our friends in the government and those that support oppression.

No - not immediately. But the MM types are the ones who "let's (their) will be known through demonstration and thus brings issues to the forefront with consistency until they can no longer be ignored by the government".
The Democrats' record from the past two decades shows that they aren't into passing left-wing laws. I don't know if you've read Michael Moore (it's OK if you haven't, it's mostly crap anyway) but he spends half the time ranting against the Democrats for being insufficiently left-wing.

I also believe the Democrats will never do anything like universal health care because

a. it would displease their big business masters
b. it would pacify one of their voting blocks, so they wouldn't care much about voting for them, meaning Democrats lose power

Political parties, especially large and powerful ones in America, aren't about ideology.

No - not immediately. But the MM types are the ones who "let's (their) will be known through demonstration and thus brings issues to the forefront with consistency until they can no longer be ignored by the government".

Libertarians and Conservatives are not all that interested in protesting noisily because they are too busy trying to earn the money that the MM types tax away.

So, as per usual, the squeeky wheel gets the grease and lunatic left laws get enacted. (And the Gorporate Grease gets other lunacy enacted).

That's why it doesn't work for the people. Lunatic left laws and lunatic right laws are not in our interest. And they are all that is heard until the people as a minority or a majority finally tire of the status quo, recognize the need for change and stand up in the face of billy clubs and water cannons to demand it.

We all look in outrage at similar events from non-western nations, but in the lifetimes of many of the people alive in America today we have seen similar scenes. There has been statements that our generation has nothing left to fight for, no demons. That's an oversight by a generation that thinks they accomplished everything. The war for rights has almost consistently been built on the bloodshed of innocents and it's been fought almost continuously since the inception of the Western world. I simply believe this is another battle brewing and the amazing thing is no matter how many battles we win, they never give up.

Law, intimidation, and violence have all been major parts of the "order" that government has tried to instill since the beginning of this country. Washington, Jackson, Lincoln, Wilson, and many other presidents have put down their people violently. It doesn't matter if you're a veteran, a homemaker, a student, a blue-collared worker, whatever. You will still be slaughtered like pigs. Peaceful revolutions do not work every time.

I am reminded of a section of Carl Sandburg's poem, "I am The People, The Mob":

I am the seed ground. I am a prairie that will stand
for much plowing. Terrible storms pass over me.
I forget. The best of me is sucked out and wasted.
I forget. Everything but Death comes to me and
makes me work and give up what I have. And I
forget.
Sometimes I growl, shake myself and spatter a few red
drops for history to remember. Then--I forget.

We forget. we die, we waste away, we weather the storms, we lose everything. And then we forget. We push, and change and try to make the world better, and when we get just a little ground, we just give up and forget why we were fighting. It has taken us almost 230 years to go from a heterosexual white male protestant only club to a nation that recognizes the rights of minorities (sorta), the rights of women (a little), the rights of other religions (not really), and the rights of those of different sexual orientation (oh wait, no we don't). Thats over 11 generations, 1 civil war, numerous rebellions which have been violently suppressed, uncounted peaceful movements which have been violently suppressed with only the strongest making any headway, many different peoples which have been oppressed again and again.

You know when I was younger I used to have a lot of faith in the government of the United States. Even when I saw it do bad things, I always believe it was isolated.

I joined the military to fight next to my brothers and sisters to defend all that America represents. I worked hard to become a productive member of her society and to vocally support what I view her to stand for.

< snippage >


I applaud your faith in the capacity of America for renewal, and thank you for your service. I might wish you were a bit less cynical, but as long as it spurs you to act for things that are right and just, I won't concern myself about it.

Faith in government is almost always misplaced, but faith in the basic decency and judgment of the American people never is. The Constitution provides mechanisms for change without resort to violence, and I heartily commend you for your willingness to rely on it as a guideline. I might differ with you on a few of the things you want to change, but overall I have no serious issues. Good luck! :)

I simply believe this is another battle brewing and the amazing thing is no matter how many battles we win, they never give up.
A battle brewing over what? Also if things get bad enough, don't be afraid to retaliate with merciless brutality. They won't.

A battle brewing over what? Also if things get bad enough, don't be afraid to retaliate with merciless brutality. They won't.
I believe his point is that in order to win, you must show you're better than those that beat you down and kill you off by not fighting, but just standing, and by responding with violence, you become as bad as them. While I love the notion, I have to say this is a dark world, and the true leaders die or are corrupted before they can lead people. Everything is disorganized, unable to fight back, and the more they press on us, the more desperate we get. It used to be where you could peacefully protest and after a while it would cause change. But now in doing so you are "helping the terrorists" or you're called seditionists, anarchists, and troublemakers, and then they fire their bullets and their gas and bring out their batons and beat you down. They legislate away your right to peaceably assemble. In most cities, groups of 6 or more people are considered gangs and are broken up by the police.

The peaceful protests of today are nothing like they were 30-40 years ago. Now the TV is on the government's side, and rarely reports it (did you hear about the protests in Chicago recently? most didn't). The police are allowed to use force to break up protests, especially peaceful ones.

A battle brewing over what? Also if things get bad enough, don't be afraid to retaliate with merciless brutality. They won't.

Not afraid, dedicated. Violence is an act of desperation. Violence against them will simply justify their behavior. A bloody and determined face that is unwilling to do anything else other than stick it's chin out and declare what is right and settle for no less even under the threat of violence is exactly what it takes to make them see the light or that's what history tells us. Martin Luther King was far more successful than the Black Panthers, in my opinion. In a battle over who can do the most physical damage, they win. In a battle for right, we win. I would rather win, than simply feel justified in my violent response.

Jocabia - Thanks for the positive outlook. It really is inspiring. I've always admired your delicious brain. brainssssssssss

If you were to protest and then you were beaten and taken to jail, and every talking head on television was calling for you to be tried for treason, people on the street seeing you as troublemakers and possibly terrorists, no one got your message, would you still feel you have won?

That is the world that the peaceful protester must go against every day.

I believe his point is that in order to win, you must show you're better than those that beat you down and kill you off by not fighting, but just standing, and by responding with violence, you become as bad as them. While I love the notion, I have to say this is a dark world, and the true leaders die or are corrupted before they can lead people. Everything is disorganized, unable to fight back, and the more they press on us, the more desperate we get. It used to be where you could peacefully protest and after a while it would cause change. But now in doing so you are "helping the terrorists" or you're called seditionists, anarchists, and troublemakers, and then they fire their bullets and their gas and bring out their batons and beat you down. They legislate away your right to peaceably assemble. In most cities, groups of 6 or more people are considered gangs and are broken up by the police.

The peaceful protests of today are nothing like they were 30-40 years ago. Now the TV is on the government's side, and rarely reports it (did you hear about the protests in Chicago recently? most didn't). The police are allowed to use force to break up protests, especially peaceful ones.


Are you kidding? What do you think they were doing then? You don't think that MLK and others spent their share of time in jail? Ever heard of the LA 13? They were actually convicted and the people they led were severely beaten for simply standing up peacefully and demanding their rights.

Protests will always be called radical, revolutionary and aiding the terrorists, etc. That's what they do. They try to marginalize the fight for rights and freedom. The point is they ALWAYS lose. The American people won't back down and won't give up when we decide we want something and we always beat the government agenda. History does repeat itself and the good news is, we win.

Not afraid, dedicated. Violence is an act of desperation. Violence against them will simply justify their behavior. A bloody and determined face that is unwilling to do anything else other than stick it's chin out and declare what is right and settle for no less even under the threat of violence is exactly what it takes to make them see the light or that's what history tells us. Martin Luther King was far more successful than the Black Panthers, in my opinion. In a battle over who can do the most physical damage, they win. In a battle for right, we win. I would rather win, than simply feel justified in my violent response.
You're lucky to live in the country that you do. In the history of most countries, simply being right has done nothing to ensure victory.

Since when exactly? And where?

Truly peaceful protesters very rarely face any trouble at all. Hell, you get everything from a vigil opposite Parliament to a pro-animal testing protest in Oxford, and nothing happens to the protesters. I don't see that America is any different; if anything freedom of assembly and expression is more deeply rooted there than it is here.

If you were to protest and then you were beaten and taken to jail, and every talking head on television was calling for you to be tried for treason, people on the street seeing you as troublemakers and possibly terrorists, no one got your message, would you still feel you have won?

That is the world that the peaceful protester must go against every day.

And always has. And, again, the peaceful protester always wins in the end. We're the good guys and the fact is our movie always has a happen ending for the general public even if the leaders of those movements had to pay with their blood.

And the government has a new problem. They have always been able to strong-arm the media on these issues, but the internet is more than they can control. I can make a video and wire it around the world when cops are ordered to attack a peaceful protest. Their arsenal of tools has weakened and they constantly lose ground.

Don't be discouraged. It might seem like they continue to win, but the reality is simply that they started with so much ground that they always have more to lose. However, they haven't slowly eroded our rights, they have short successes but in the long run the trend is toward civil rights and power to and for the people.

Since when exactly? And where?

Truly peaceful protesters very rarely face any trouble at all. Hell, you get everything from a vigil opposite Parliament to a pro-animal testing protest in Oxford, and nothing happens to the protesters. I don't see that America is any different; if anything freedom of assembly and expression is more deeply rooted there than it is here.
I've been arrested four times for protesting here. Once for protesting weapons shipments to El salvador, once for protesting weapons shipments to the Contras in Nicaragua, once for protesting Apartheid and once for protesting animal research at UCLA Medical School. I'll agree that there's a general attitude of permissiveness here in regards to freedom of assembly, but people can and do get arrested all the time here for expressing their views. Also, while I was working for the Hollywood chapter of the Committee in Solidarity with the People of El Salvador we were secretly investigated by the FBI. During their investigation they bugged our offices and broke into some people's cars. The wiretapping scandal has some bad undertones for me and we haven't hit the oil wall yet. When that happens I think the curtailments to our freedoms in teh Patriot Act will entirely likely be used to intimidate people who protest against all manner of government poilicies.

BTW - Jocabia, thanks for letting everyone know I don't get my education from internet message boards. ;) I appreciate that.

It's that Americans have an undying faith in truth and justice and the "American Way".

I giggled, until I realised you were serious and not mocking.

Since when exactly? And where?

Truly peaceful protesters very rarely face any trouble at all. Hell, you get everything from a vigil opposite Parliament to a pro-animal testing protest in Oxford, and nothing happens to the protesters. I don't see that America is any different; if anything freedom of assembly and expression is more deeply rooted there than it is here.

Do a little research, my friend. Try looking up the 1968 walkouts where students were beaten for peacefully resisting and refusing to go to class. They were also locked in classrooms and inside fences. They were arrested and some were hospitalized. This eventually culminated in victory but the organizers, the LA 13 were arrested and convicted (the conviction was overturned on appeal). Or look at the time MLK spent in Birmingham. Or nearly every other peaceful protest designed to further human rights.

BTW - Jocabia, thanks for letting everyone know I don't get my education from internet message boards. ;) I appreciate that.

Oh, come on. It's funny. Laugh at yourself. We do. And I know you laugh at me as do others. Some in this very thread. That's what makes this so much fun.

Oh, come on. It's funny. Laugh at yourself. We do. And I know you laugh at me as do others. Some in this very thread. That's what makes this so much fun.
I did. ;)

I giggled, until I realised you were serious and not mocking.

You know it's true. That's why frustrate you. It's a biggest weakness and our biggest strength. In the face of overwhelming evidence there are Americans who still believe that it is the government that strives for these principles. In America, change is resisted by those that think the government protects those principles and it is achieved by those that think the people are who protect those principles. However, the belief in those priniciples are almost universal.

You know that the people you encounter who don't seem to actually support those principles are simply mislead, ignorant or confused. Be frustrated, but be realistic. It is a nearly universal desire of Americans for America to be a bastion for those principles.

You know it's true.

Uh-huh...

You know that the people you encounter who don't seem to actually support those principles are simply mislead, ignorant or confused. Be frustrated, but be realistic. It is a nearly universal desire of Americans for America to be a bastion for those principles.

Uh-huh...

Uh-huh...



Uh-huh...

Don't be so cynical, Fass. I understand that you've been on the receiving end of some of the oppression. More than anyone should be, but have faith. We do have a tendency to move in the right direction and even you in your cynicism must see the factual basis for suggesting such a thing. Certainly you wouldn't claim that the American government has had a steady decline of rights since inception, would you?

Have faith, young Padawan. We're moving. And again, momentum is on our side and it's hard to change the momentum of a juggernaut like the American Way.

Have faith, young Padawan. We're moving. And again, momentum is on our side and it's hard to change the momentum of a juggernaut like the American Way.
Peak oil will. Soon.

You know when I was younger I used to have a lot of faith in the government of the United States. Even when I saw it do bad things, I always believe it was isolated.

I joined the military to fight next to my brothers and sisters to defend all that America represents. I worked hard to become a productive member of her society and to vocally support what I view her to stand for.

Unfortunately, now I know better in regards to the government.

Every one of the freedoms we hold up as a symbol of why the government of America is so great is a freedom we had to pay for with blood, mostly blood shed by civilians at the hands of the government. The government has repeated been responsible for brutally beating protesters excercising the freedom to assemble. We have treated Atheist and pagans (natives) brutally in the past for excercising their freedom of religion. We have censored books and ideas throughout our history. We treated other races as subhuman. Fortunately, all of these things are in the past, but it's hard to be surprised by recent events. They are simply upkeeping tradition.

Today, we know about the bias of the death penalty, yet we continue it. We know that gays have every right to form loving unions with one another yet we don't cry foul that government doesn't recognize this basic right. We know that states like California and Texas were hispanic in their founding and we act like the fact that so many people there are hispanic like it's a problem. The California Constitution was bilingual when California was a country, but people get pissed if a street sign is.

Now states actively and knowingly throw out Supreme Court decisions to declare sharing a dildo with your partner "distributiion of illegal devices", and that the Christian God is recognized by the government, prayer in school, a conceptus is a person and that doctors who kill them are committing murder (ignoring the hypocrisy of not placing any blame on the woman in this 'murder'), that gay unions will not be recognized, the DOMA (dear God how did anyone ever think this was okay).

So what's the upside? Am I just complaining? Nope. See, what's so evil about America is also what's so wonderful. Americans face the corruption of thier government down again and again and again. What makes America so wonderful is not the government, is not our rights, is not our military prowess, is not our economy. It's that Americans have an undying faith in truth and justice and the "American Way". In the face of history and unbelievable odds, Americans keep rising up again and again to change the injustices that are institutionalized. A rise up occurs and slavery ends. Another one and blacks get the vote. Another one gender equality begins to occur. Another one and blacks start to see equality. Another one and the enrollment of hispanics in colleges increases in a couple of years by like 1000%. Another one and divorce is viewed differently.

We won't stop. We don't stop. So the question isn't if we'll eventually rise up and tell our government we won't tolerate Gitmo and Iraq and the denial of LGBT rights and the merging of Church and State, it's when.

I hope that finally the American people will once again take up the yoke of change and do what we've always done - reigned in our corrupt government and been a beacon of hope, democracy and the fight for civil rights across the globe. And this time, they won't be able to censor the visions of brutal beatings of protesters and the massive legal oppression against 'agitators'. The internet gives us a power we've never had before. Think positive Americans, because these efforts are so blatant that they evidence a desperation. They feel that a storm is in the air and they're trying to board up the windows. Peaceful revolution (at least on the part of the revolutionaries) is what makes America great. I'm happy to see that our hand is being forced on this one.

Am I the only electrically excited by the fact that America is a snake and we've come again to time to shed our skin and reform ourselves to higher level of civil rights and freedom? History says that they are doing exactly what the American government has always done. History also says that the peaceful revolutionaries win every time.

Quoted for truth.

I might argue with a detail here and there.... the Natives are STILL getting the shitty end of the stick, and being an Atheist makes you no friends. (Atheism is the number one most undesirable trait in a potential Presidential candidate, I read. That's above communism. Crazy, huh?)

I might also argue with 'peaceful protest works every time' as a credo. There have been times in American history when it HAS been right for the people to revolt at any cost. I can't say that won't happen again.

But, at the moment, I agree... if the collective mass of America agrees with you - the future will have a tendency to bring itself back into line. And better than it was, if history is anything to base it on.

Of course - there's the thing that worries me about the particular make-up of the nation today... the fundamentalist element is disproportionately strong, we even have 'Taliban' in this country now (like Bob Jones University). Maybe the US hasn't had to face QUITE this kind of problem before.

But I like your vision, my friend. It's a good platform, and well stated.

Don't be so cynical, Fass. I understand that you've been on the receiving end of some of the oppression. More than anyone should be, but have faith. We do have a tendency to move in the right direction and even you in your cynicism must see the factual basis for suggesting such a thing. Certainly you wouldn't claim that the American government has had a steady decline of rights since inception, would you?

Have faith, young Padawan. We're moving. And again, momentum is on our side and it's hard to change the momentum of a juggernaut like the American Way.

Hey wait! A thought just occured to me.

I've been seeing what LOOKED like a motion in this direction for a while...

"We're moving...", "...momentum is on our side..."...

Does this mean that Jocabia now identifies himself as a 'liberal' of some stripe?

:o

Don't be so cynical, Fass. I understand that you've been on the receiving end of some of the oppression. More than anyone should be, but have faith. We do have a tendency to move in the right direction and even you in your cynicism must see the factual basis for suggesting such a thing. Certainly you wouldn't claim that the American government has had a steady decline of rights since inception, would you?

Seeing as the start was so poor there was little else to go. I mean, slavery was an anachronism even before your revolution. Took you a while. Segregation, as well. Not to mention gay rights. It seems to take you a while, your inception notwithstanding, as it's more an exception confirming the rule.

Have faith, young Padawan. We're moving. And again, momentum is on our side and it's hard to change the momentum of a juggernaut like the American Way.

Precisely, which is the depressing part, seeing as "The American Way" was the part I giggled at. It's so "self-aggrandising primary school propaganda."

EDIT: And Star Wars sucks.

Hey wait! A thought just occured to me.

I've been seeing what LOOKED like a motion in this direction for a while...

"We're moving...", "...momentum is on our side..."...

Does this mean that Jocabia now identifies himself as a 'liberal' of some stripe?

:o

Unfortunately, yes. And you know this, because I said so much to you in another thread where you did electronic jumps for joy. Can we not celebrate quietly that Jocabia is seeing the light?

Also, I would point out that I am liberal on the issue of personal rights. I believe in fiscal conservatism (something no politicians seem to agree with) and the idea that closer safety nets (welfare, medicare, medicaid, etc.) are to the people the more likely they are to work. And I'm a big fan of stare decisis. Those aren't traditionally liberal ideas. They are also certainly not neo-con ideas.

Seeing as the start was so poor there was little else to go. I mean, slavery was an anachronism even before your revolution. Took you a while. Segregation, as well. Not to mention gay rights. It seems to take you a while, your inception notwithstanding, as it's more an exception confirming the rule.



Precisely, which is the depressing part, seeing as "The American Way" was the part I giggled at. It's so "self-aggrandising primary school propaganda."

EDIT: And Star Wars sucks.

Ha. You have to remember how young we are. And we have some fairly unique things to face that only Canada and Australia as western nations can really identify with. Come on, Grandpa, let us get a little too drunk once in a while. It's what us young'uns do.

Unfortunately, yes. And you know this, because I said so much to you in another thread where you did electronic jumps for joy. Can we not celebrate quietly that Jocabia is seeing the light?

Also, I would point out that I am liberal on the issue of personal rights. I believe in fiscal conservatism (something no politicians seem to agree with) and the idea that closer safety nets (welfare, medicare, medicaid, etc.) are to the people the more likely they are to work. And I'm a big fan of stare decisis. Those aren't traditionally liberal ideas. They are also certainly not neo-con ideas.

Well good luck with the fiscal conservatism. I was under the impression that was supposed to be a touchstone of Republicanism... but I haven't seen any evidence of it since Reagan arrived.

But then - I thought Republicans were about small government and pro- 'personal responsibility', too... although Patriot Act and domestic spying are just two indicators that THAT might now be an outmoded concept.

I guess what this means is, the US doesn't really HAVE a 'conservative' party at the moment... just two lesser conservative parties - one of which is very slightly more fiscally responsible maybe, and the other might be a touch more socially liberal.

Your politics hit very close to mine on social progression, although I think you still believe you can get what you want with one of the two corporations currently running, yes?

Ha. You have to remember how young we are.

I should say many of you do, too.

And we have some fairly unique things to face that only Canada and Australia as western nations can really identify with.

Pish-posh. They're still proper monarchies, even if Australia is a bit *displays his alternatingly pronating and supinating hand*...

Come on, Grandpa, let us get a little too drunk once in a while. It's what us young'uns do.

OK, OK. If you're lucky, you get to repeat all our mistakes.

Well good luck with the fiscal conservatism. I was under the impression that was supposed to be a touchstone of Republicanism... but I haven't seen any evidence of it since Reagan arrived.

But then - I thought Republicans were about small government and pro- 'personal responsibility', too... although Patriot Act and domestic spying are just two indicators that THAT might now be an outmoded concept.

I guess what this means is, the US doesn't really HAVE a 'conservative' party at the moment... just two lesser conservative parties - one of which is very slightly more fiscally responsible maybe, and the other might be a touch more socially liberal.

Your politics hit very close to mine on social progression, although I think you still believe you can get what you want with one of the two corporations currently running, yes?

By the way, I was always a civil rights liberal (mostly you could call me a libertarian in that regard), but I think recently my priorities have changed.

And, no, I think both parties are completely incompetent and I don't buy the lesser of two evils bunk they argue to keep them in power.

By the way, I was always a civil rights liberal (mostly you could call me a libertarian in that regard), but I think recently my priorities have changed.

And, no, I think both parties are completely incompetent and I don't buy the lesser of two evils bunk they argue to keep them in power.

I remember you 'outing yourself' as liberal before... I wasn't sure how serious you were, of course.

The problem I have with the term 'libertarian' is that it has been taken by the ultra-capitalists, to describe a form of minarchistic deregulation... but with a social conscience.

Now, I'm all about letting Bob marry Dave and Jane, if they all swing that way... but this ultra-devolved capitalist model... I have GREAT reservations about. It's 'laissez-faire'... but without the 'laissez'.

I remember you 'outing yourself' as liberal before... I wasn't sure how serious you were, of course.

The problem I have with the term 'libertarian' is that it has been taken by the ultra-capitalists, to describe a form of minarchistic deregulation... but with a social conscience.

Now, I'm all about letting Bob marry Dave and Jane, if they all swing that way... but this ultra-devolved capitalist model... I have GREAT reservations about. It's 'laissez-faire'... but without the 'laissez'.

Or the fair. Yes, unfortunately, libertarian used to be a great way to describe my position until it was pilfered. Corporations don't have rights equal to people. Unfortunately, some libertarians argue exactly the opposite or even that they have more rights than people do.

Or the fair. Yes, unfortunately, libertarian used to be a great way to describe my position until it was pilfered. Corporations don't have rights equal to people. Unfortunately, some libertarians argue exactly the opposite or even that they have more rights than people do.

I agree. I could have identified myself as libertarian... if it hadn't been co-opted by people who's politics I find... well, dangerous!

So - now I'm a social progressive non-partisan, again. :(

Don't be so cynical, Fass. I understand that you've been on the receiving end of some of the oppression.
How has the American government ever oppressed Fass?

Of course - there's the thing that worries me about the particular make-up of the nation today... the fundamentalist element is disproportionately strong, we even have 'Taliban' in this country now (like Bob Jones University). Maybe the US hasn't had to face QUITE this kind of problem before.
Don't you live in Britain?

The US also went through Christian conservative phases in the 1920s and 1950s. They didn't lead to theocracy. This is just another one of them.

I've been seeing what LOOKED like a motion in this direction for a while...

"We're moving...", "...momentum is on our side..."...

Does this mean that Jocabia now identifies himself as a 'liberal' of some stripe?

What? This is news? Jocabia is one of the most outspoken US liberals on this message board, and has been for as long as I remember him.

What? This is news? Jocabia is one of the most outspoken US liberals on this message board, and has been for as long as I remember him.

Aye...He always reminds me of an angry black woman...Sorta creepy actually.

Don't you live in Britain?


Used to.


The US also went through Christian conservative phases in the 1920s and 1950s. They didn't lead to theocracy. This is just another one of them.


I really do hope you're right. The religious I have no problems with... I just really DO NOT hold with religious politics... just never seems to make a good mix.


What? This is news? Jocabia is one of the most outspoken US liberals on this message board, and has been for as long as I remember him.

No no... Jocabia has been very vocal on socially pogressive issues. He only recently departed the 'liberal' closet, I believe.

How has the American government ever oppressed Fass?


Don't you live in Britain?

The US also went through Christian conservative phases in the 1920s and 1950s. They didn't lead to theocracy. This is just another one of them.


What? This is news? Jocabia is one of the most outspoken US liberals on this message board, and has been for as long as I remember him.
I am a liberal on the issue of personal rights. I think that is pretty much the only place you could paint me as liberal.

I thought Clinton was a jackass and I wouldn't allow Kerry to use my toilet.

I am a liberal on the issue of personal rights. I think that is pretty much the only place you could paint me as liberal.

I thought Clinton was a jackass and I wouldn't allow Kerry to use my toilet.

You know... you just put an old saying in my head...

A nation gets the leaders it deserves...

Are we still being punished for Manifest Destiny...?

Used to.



I really do hope you're right. The religious I have no problems with... I just really DO NOT hold with religious politics... just never seems to make a good mix.



No no... Jocabia has been very vocal on socially pogressive issues. He only recently departed the 'liberal' closet, I believe.

You forget. There is a very "you don't like Bush so you must be a flaming liberal" crowd here on NS. It's unfortunate that personal responsibility and personal rights has become a 'liberal' cause. Conservatives should consider this to be an issue that is somewhat embarrassing, I would think.

Interestingly, I'm also pro-death penalty (if it is applied equally, which it isn't currently) and pro-gun. I believe in a much harsher stance on crime than most people I know. I also believe strongly on state's rights when it comes to administering state institutions and think that our current federal funding policies are extortion. I believe the federal government should be about a tenth of what it is (neocons are big government people in sheeps clothing). I think punitive damages are a violation of our right to be proven guilty. I think capitalism is the best system coming and going and I'm a great believe in the American military and the American people.

If that makes me a liberal then "kiss me, I'm a liberal".

You forget. There is a very "you don't like Bush so you must be a flaming liberal" crowd here on NS. It's unfortunate that personal responsibility and personal rights has become a 'liberal' cause. Conservatives should consider this to be an issue that is somewhat embarrassing, I would think.

Interestingly, I'm also pro-death penalty (if it is applied equally, which it isn't currently) and pro-gun. I believe in a much harsher stance on crime than most people I know. I also believe strongly on state's rights when it comes to administering state institutions and think that our current federal funding policies are extortion. I believe the federal government should be about a tenth of what it is (neocons are big government people in sheeps clothing). I think punitive damages are a violation of our right to be proven guilty. I think capitalism is the best system coming and going and I'm a great believe in the American military and the American people.

If that makes me a liberal then "kiss me, I'm a liberal".

I'm with you on most. Social progress, maximum personal liberty kind of thing. Pro-Gun. Pro-death-penalty.

I'm a little hazy over the whole state thing... I think pick an extreme, you know? Either one federal government.... or government by communities with minimal federal government... but I can't understand the benefits of this 'halfway' house.

Regarding government size... huge or tiny... much the same to me. I wouldn't care either way, so long as it was EFFICIENT.

On the last - I'm a reluctant capitalist. I'm only here till something cuter comes along.

All liberals hate America

All liberals hate America

Here's something: The book can also be a hat.

I really do hope you're right. The religious I have no problems with... I just really DO NOT hold with religious politics... just never seems to make a good mix.
It surely doesn't!

No no... Jocabia has been very vocal on socially pogressive issues. He only recently departed the 'liberal' closet, I believe.
Why, what ideology was he advocating before?

I am a liberal on the issue of personal rights. I think that is pretty much the only place you could paint me as liberal.

I thought Clinton was a jackass and I wouldn't allow Kerry to use my toilet.
Yeah I thought they were too right-wing as well, especially Clinton.


Interestingly, I'm also pro-death penalty (if it is applied equally, which it isn't currently) and pro-gun. I believe in a much harsher stance on crime than most people I know. I also believe strongly on state's rights when it comes to administering state institutions and think that our current federal funding policies are extortion. I believe the federal government should be about a tenth of what it is (neocons are big government people in sheeps clothing). I think punitive damages are a violation of our right to be proven guilty. I think capitalism is the best system coming and going and I'm a great believe in the American military and the American people.

If that makes me a liberal then "kiss me, I'm a liberal".
This all sounds like pretty liberal stuff to me. Especially about wanting to reduce the government by 90%. You probably won't agree with a lefty like me on a lot of things, but hey we live on different continents.

On the last - I'm a reluctant capitalist. I'm only here till something cuter comes along.
Yeah, same here.

It surely doesn't!


Why, what ideology was he advocating before?


Yeah I thought they were too right-wing as well, especially Clinton.


This all sounds like pretty liberal stuff to me. Especially about wanting to reduce the government by 90%. You probably won't agree with a lefty like me on a lot of things, but hey we live on different continents.


Yeah, same here.

Almost everything on that list is considered conservative in the US (except that Conservatives rarely vote in candidates that actually do such things).

Why, what ideology was he advocating before?


Previously, he was declared as a social progressive, as an aspect of his conservative platform. Now, he's conservative as an aspect of his socially progressive platform.

At least - that's the way it now comes across.

Previously, he was declared as a social progressive, as an aspect of his conservative platform. Now, he's conservative as an aspect of his socially progressive platform.

At least - that's the way it now comes across.

That's fairly accurate.

Faith in government is almost always misplaced, but faith in the basic decency and judgment of the American people never is.

In my opinion the faith in the decency and judgment of the American people has always wavered. More recently it has wavered far too easily. According to polls an incredibly large portion of the American population, a bit over 40%, still believe Iraq had something to do with 9/11. 40-something% when it should be at absolute zero.

I could add that for me personally, the fact they "elected" Bush over Gore is inexplicable, but the Iraq+9/11 stat is more than enough to raise a few eyebrows. Up until now the American people have believed whatever the GOP tells them to believe. This is changing, but way too slow for my liking.

I think the reason not so many people have acted to get these corrupt lunatics out of power is that they have yet to see the impact in their own lives of their anti-freedom policies.

But because of Iraq, a lot of people are starting to see people they love stuck in enemy territory on dubious moral ground, and a lot of them are seeing them die when things in Iraq seem to be getting worse. So maybe people will start realizing, this bad government is affecting our lives in a negative way.

Unfortunately, the democrats have yet to take advantage of this because of their awful political strategies.

I think the reason not so many people have acted to get these corrupt lunatics out of power is that they have yet to see the impact in their own lives of their anti-freedom policies.

But because of Iraq, a lot of people are starting to see people they love stuck in enemy territory on dubious moral ground, and a lot of them are seeing them die when things in Iraq seem to be getting worse. So maybe people will start realizing, this bad government is affecting our lives in a negative way.

In my opinion someone has to wake up Americans to face the reality that the "fucking crazy" Neocons are forfeiting the future of not only the current generation of Americans, but their children and grandchildren's future also. The war in Iraq has cost and will continue to cost a bloody fortune. TAX PAYERS MONEY. Americans WAKE UP and smell Columbian coffee!

Unfortunately, the democrats have yet to take advantage of this because of their awful political strategies.
And this is most unfortunate.

In my opinion the faith in the decency and judgment of the American people has always wavered. More recently it has wavered far too easily. According to polls an incredibly large portion of the American population, a bit over 40%, still believe Iraq had something to do with 9/11. 40-something% when it should be at absolute zero.


Ehhhh.....absolute zero is a temperature, not a percent.

Precisely why the metaphoric use of absolute zero is apt. If you were trying to ignore the point you've succeeded. :rolleyes:

Wow, just wow, you talked about many of the current problems yet you kept a positive spin on it. And you're right everytime people get oppressed into a corner in this country they will always stand up and say 'No More, it's time for a change.' If you look around it's already happening, the Conservatives have abandoned Bush, sure it's not much of a change but it's still a change. Change is inevitable, those who suppress change always fail in the end.

liberalism is Gods hand in the poilitical realm

Precisely why the metaphoric use of absolute zero is apt. If you were trying to ignore the point you've succeeded. :rolleyes:
Not that I disagree with yoru assessment of a number of people in our population, it was amazing to me to see and hear the things Bush voters believed especially during the last election, but you seem to have missed the fact that both elections were about the closest elections ever in American history. One of them had to be decided by the Supreme Court after a couple recounts, in fact. Just asking you to remeber that at least half of us had teh sense not to vote for him. Also, remember that even inside the US this is the most polarizing president I've seen in my 37 years.

<snip>Peaceful revolution (at least on the part of the revolutionaries) is what makes America great. I'm happy to see that our hand is being forced on this one.

Am I the only electrically excited by the fact that America is a snake and we've come again to time to shed our skin and reform ourselves to higher level of civil rights and freedom? History says that they are doing exactly what the American government has always done. History also says that the peaceful revolutionaries win every time.
A beautiful essay, Jocabia, thank you. And hail, fellow progressive. :)

I am significantly more cynical and pessimistic than you, however. I do agree that the US has a consistent historical trend towards social liberalism -- "consistent" in that the line goes up and down like a progress graph, and sometimes more down than up, but over time, it keeps going up. I also agree that, in general, the majority of American people do profoundly believe in the tolerant and egalitarian principles expressed in the Bill of Rights and other parts of our national history and symbolism -- with the caveat that many of them struggle to reconcile those with their own personal prejudices -- in general they decide to be tolerant and egalitarian in the end.

However, I also think there is a significant minority of American people who do not believe in those principles. Some of them are racists, some are religious extremists, a lot of them are wealthy and closely connected to big corporate interests. This minority primarily rejects egalitarianism in favor of an authoritarian, heirarchical class system, envisioning themselves at the top, of course, because these people seem to really need to think they are better than others. I think that every time America's progress towards a tolerance and equality has stalled or slid back, it is because of this minority flexing its muscles. The neocons are just their latest vehicle.

I, too, advocate the way of Gandhi and Dr. King. Not only is peaceful resistance noble and civilized, it gets lasting results, too. We must never be afraid to speak the truth, must never compromise our principles. And we must never lower ourselves to the tactics of our enemies, no matter what the consequences.

But we must know who our enemy really is. It isn't the government. The US government is a puppet, a tool that, really, anyone can use if they know how. It is not enough to "reform" government. We must understand how power works in this country and how the enemies of America's principles are using it against us. And we must throw it right back at them. Power is a game. We've got to get back into the game. It won't be easy, and I do expect to lose ground before we gain any. In other words, I think things are going to get worse, but we should just strengthen our resolve and get ready to take those hits and send them back where they came from.

Did I mention that I'm a egalitarian social progressive whose favorite philosopher is Macchiavelli?

Precisely why the metaphoric use of absolute zero is apt. If you were trying to ignore the point you've succeeded. :rolleyes:

Not really...I don't think you need to make zero sound "cool" to get your point across. (hehe..."cool"...absolute zero, get it? :P). I mean, you could say "It should absolutely be zero" or something like that, but a metaphor for zero is unnecessary...It's like " I want zero, but really really zero, yanno?" And what makes you think I ignored the point? The absolute zero thing was just the only part I felt like commenting on, bit of premature eye-rolling there.

Not that I disagree with yoru assessment of a number of people in our population, it was amazing to me to see and hear the things Bush voters believed especially during the last election, but you seem to have missed the fact that both elections were about the closest elections ever in American history. One of them had to be decided by the Supreme Court after a couple recounts, in fact. Just asking you to remeber that at least half of us had teh sense not to vote for him. Also, remember that even inside the US this is the most polarizing president I've seen in my 37 years.

Naturally.

[OOC]Dan. I would like to apologize for one thing and attempt to clear up a few things. There are many here who tend to forget that not everybody on NS is a teenage cyber-punk and they have adapted their posting style to fit the medium while they play this "game". I am definitely guilty of that.
A huge portion of my family is American and I cherish them all. None of that alters my concern and resentment towards the eagerness and gullibility the American people is showing as far as Iraq is concerned. I could understand how they could give the administration the benefit of the doubt. The American homeland was attacked. The government pinned the blame on A and then later said B was involved. That's understandable. What's not understandable is that it is taking so long for Americans to acquire fact and truth. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11. They were directly mocked and manipulated by their government. By the Republican Party. By Bush and by the neoconservatives that undermine the GOP, democracy in America, and the hopes for any real chance at peace in the world.

[QUOTE=It has taken us almost 230 years to go from a heterosexual white male protestant only club to a nation that recognizes the rights of minorities (sorta), the rights of women (a little), the rights of other religions (not really), and the rights of those of different sexual orientation (oh wait, no we don't). [/QUOTE]


That's whats wrong with this country. Multiculturalists are going to ruin us with the aid of idiotic liberals who just don't get it.

http://www.natvan.com/what-is-na/index.html

Wow, just wow, you talked about many of the current problems yet you kept a positive spin on it. And you're right everytime people get oppressed into a corner in this country they will always stand up and say 'No More, it's time for a change.' If you look around it's already happening, the Conservatives have abandoned Bush, sure it's not much of a change but it's still a change. Change is inevitable, those who suppress change always fail in the end.

Conservative politicians haven't abandoned Bush... they have just decided to concentrate more on their constituents... this being an election year.

The 'conservative' voters may not support all of the Bush agenda, but, unfortunately, they will still vote for whichever ticket BANS the most stuff they find 'icky'.

That's whats wrong with this country. Multiculturalists are going to ruin us with the aid of idiotic liberals who just don't get it.

http://www.natvan.com/what-is-na/index.html

You forgot your <sarcasm> tags.

Otherwise people might think you're serious.

That's whats wrong with this country. Multiculturalists are going to ruin us with the aid of idiotic liberals who just don't get it.

http://www.natvan.com/what-is-na/index.html


HAHAHAHA!!!! Gee, now there is an argument. I suspect people who need to cling to the way they were born to suggest they are superior to others do so because they wouldn't rank very well based on, oh, you know, accomplishments and behavior.

That's whats wrong with this country. Multiculturalists are going to ruin us with the aid of idiotic liberals who just don't get it.

http://www.natvan.com/what-is-na/index.htmlOoh...
I hope you don't use such multicultural objects as forks, aspirin, or cars...

You forgot your <sarcasm> tags.

Otherwise people might think you're serious.

Is he being sarcastic? I did think he was serious, to be honest.

Is he being sarcastic? I did think he was serious, to be honest.

Really? I had hoped it was sarcasm...

Really? I had hoped it was sarcasm...Did you check out the link?

Did you check out the link?

Well, yes... that was actually made me think it was a joke...

I mean, no one takes that kind of juvenille finger-pointing seriously, right?

Well, yes... that was actually made me think it was a joke...

I mean, no one takes that kind of juvenille finger-pointing seriously, right?Maybe you should take a look at some of the nazi or white supremacist regions here... there's plenty of people that believe this crap.

EDIT:
I just took a look at their post history... This is from the person that brought us the "AMERICA... AS IT SHOULD BE!!!" thread...

I also agree that, in general, the majority of American people do profoundly believe in the tolerant and egalitarian principles expressed in the Bill of Rights and other parts of our national history and symbolism -- with the caveat that many of them struggle to reconcile those with their own personal prejudices -- in general they decide to be tolerant and egalitarian in the end.

However, I also think there is a significant minority of American people who do not believe in those principles. Some of them are racists, some are religious extremists, a lot of them are wealthy and closely connected to big corporate interests. This minority primarily rejects egalitarianism in favor of an authoritarian, heirarchical class system, envisioning themselves at the top, of course, because these people seem to really need to think they are better than others.
Americans are hypocrites. They claim that they oppose heirarchical class systems, oppose thinking that some are better than others, and embrace egalitarian values. And then they turn around and create the western world's most disgustingly capitalist nation, a bastion of corporate abuse of humanity.

That's whats wrong with this country. Multiculturalists are going to ruin us with the aid of idiotic liberals who just don't get it.

http://www.natvan.com/what-is-na/index.html
Your politics were rendered outdated by unabashed, fearless brutality in 1945. Your leaders and idols wound up at one end of a length of rope. Reconsider your views or the same may happen again.

I wonder at the number of people who apparently think that America has Liberals in its government, who will maniacally destroy everything the country has, if given the chance. Democrats are not Liberal, they are just less right-of-centre than Republicans.

Maybe you should take a look at some of the nazi or white supremacist regions here... there's plenty of people that believe this crap.

EDIT:
I just took a look at their post history... This is from the person that brought us the "AMERICA... AS IT SHOULD BE!!!" thread...

I hadn't checked their post history... I also always assumed Nazi regions on NS were 'for play'.

Have I just revealed myself as incredibly naive?

I just find it hard to believe people might run towards outdated politics with open arms... especially since every culture that has ever seriously embraced 'racial purity'... has suffered for it.

I hadn't checked their post history... I also always assumed Nazi regions on NS were 'for play'.

Have I just revealed myself as incredibly naive?

I just find it hard to believe people might run towards outdated politics with open arms... especially since every culture that has ever seriously embraced 'racial purity'... has suffered for it.Sorry to say, but yes. There are such depraved individuals on NS. They mainly partake in regional warfare, as I've been able to gather, as most of them get bashed to bits if they wander into General...

I wonder at the number of people who apparently think that America has Liberals in its government, who will maniacally destroy everything the country has, if given the chance. Democrats are not Liberal, they are just less right-of-centre than Republicans.From a European definition, right from center is liberal.

Sorry to say, but yes. There are such depraved individuals on NS. They mainly partake in regional warfare, as I've been able to gather, as most of them get bashed to bits if they wander into General...

Hah... whatever floats your boat I guess.

Ah well... they can have their little 'white' enclaves if they want, while I enjoy the benefits of hot indian girls, and hot chinese food.

And, well... you get the idea...

*snip* History also says that the peaceful revolutionaries win every time.
When did history say that?! The stupid, well armed guys always win over the cultrally enlightened and peaceful. It sucks, and the only situation that it won't stand true is when there are no well armed, stupid people.

When did history say that?! The stupid, well armed guys always win over the cultrally enlightened and peaceful. It sucks, and the only situation that it won't stand true is when there are no well armed, stupid people.

Might want to look at the recent (last few hundred years) of history of India...

Might want to look at the recent (last few hundred years) of history of India...

Or look at US history. Every armed rebellion, from Shay's and the Wiskey Rebellion, to the Civil War and beyond, has been beaten down by the government. Peaceful "revolutions" have a better record (about 50/50), with defeats like the Bonus Army, and sucesses like the Civl Rights and Anti-Vietnam War protests.

I hadn't checked their post history... I also always assumed Nazi regions on NS were 'for play'.

Have I just revealed myself as incredibly naive?

I just find it hard to believe people might run towards outdated politics with open arms... especially since every culture that has ever seriously embraced 'racial purity'... has suffered for it.
I ran into some people here recently who want to bring back the British Empire!!! WTF!! That's so beyond outdated politics, it's retro-vintage. Maybe they'd like to bring back steam engines and boiled beef, too. People are insane, GnI.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading your first post.
And can only applaud to what it says.


I've been thinking for a good while ( 30-odd years or so) that the main priority of Government is exactly the same as that for all other life-forms ( if you wish to think of Government as being alife ):

Government's sole reason for existing is merely to propagate itself - which sort of renders it's potential powers to do anything good a very moot point indeed.



Since the days of the Great Khan, and the barbaric clarity of his claim that the gods had given him the earth and everyone and everything in it, empires have resorted to rosier delusions, if no less fatal to victims—and sometimes citizens—than the Khan model. From the Romans to the Fourth Crusade (and their Venetian and French aggressors) to Genghis Khan to the Spaniards and Napoleon and the British, Bonner and Wiggin teach us the lessons of empire, with learning, wisdom, and irony.

“A great empire,” they note,” is to the world of geopolitics what a great bubble is to the world of economics. It’s attractive at the outset but a catastrophe eventually. We know of no exceptions.”

I ran into some people here recently who want to bring back the British Empire!!! WTF!! That's so beyond outdated politics, it's retro-vintage. Maybe they'd like to bring back steam engines and boiled beef, too. People are insane, GnI.

Hey! What's wrong with boiled beef!

Or look at US history. Every armed rebellion, from Shay's and the Wiskey Rebellion, to the Civil War and beyond, has been beaten down by the government. Peaceful "revolutions" have a better record (about 50/50), with defeats like the Bonus Army, and sucesses like the Civl Rights and Anti-Vietnam War protests.

Very true.

I just happen to like the India example, because of the dynamics. Little Indian guy, entire British Empire, etc.

*snip* History also says that the peaceful revolutionaries win every time.Someone might want to let the Palestinians in on that. I've often wondered why it was that people don't see why where Ghandi and Mandela and M.L. king Jr. were so successful and yet the Palstinians and the Chechnians aren't. It's tactics. It's the way in which these people made their positions known to the world. These people spoke and used noviolent protest to draw world attention to their plights and the world stood up and listened and took action. The fact is that when blown up shoppers at a mall become the face of your rebellion you don't get the sympathy of the world.

Americans are hypocrites. They claim that they oppose heirarchical class systems, oppose thinking that some are better than others, and embrace egalitarian values. And then they turn around and create the western world's most disgustingly capitalist nation, a bastion of corporate abuse of humanity.
<snip>
As a group, yes, they are. But if you look more closely, you'll find a depressingly even mix of real progressives, fake progressives, real class-bastards, and class-bastards who feel guilty about it. It's the tug of war between these that leads to our horrifyingly hypocritical national policies. But take a further step back and look at that progress graph, and you'll see that, over time, there has been slow overall increase in liberalism from the Revolution to today.*

Here's the way I see my nation: The class bastards who feel guilty about it are the probable majority. These are your swing voters. Real progressives and real class bastards are always fighting to control this group. American politics is always a battle of guilt trips vs. ego trips. The fake progressives are the wrench in the works. These are the voters who most usually account for high democrat/liberal (guilt trip) poll numbers during campaign seasons but actual conservative/big business/rightwing (ego trip) votes at the polls. Fortunately, they are the minority, but if real progressives fail to corral the class bastards with guilt, then the fake progressives can derail a close election.

Every now and then, you see huge dips down into ego tripping (like now), and other times you see huge swings up into guilt tripping (like in the 60s). These are times when one side or the other has the clear upper hand with that selfish-guilty majority. The trick is figuring out how to get that upper hand. I believe the best way is to present your politics so as to harness both American guilt and American ego at the same time. You have to make Americans feel GREAT :cool: about doing the opposite of what you have made them feel HORRIBLE :( about doing (i.e., what you want them to do versus what they were doing).

FDR was good at this. So was Kennedy. Look at the cults that still linger around those two.

EDIT: * I account for the steady increase in liberalism thus: The bigger your population and the more active your capitalist markets, the harder it is to maintain the conformity required to keep a heirarchy in place. History shows that all nations that have grown and prospered have trended towards greater and greater tolerance, egalitarianism, and social mobility, even to the degree of accepting levels of sub-regional political autonomy. In every case where the heirarchy tried to reassert itself, such movements were led by reactionaries trying to reestablish a past system, and they have all failed, often taking their nation down with them. Thus, wealth is supported by liberalism.

Hey! What's wrong with boiled beef!
Aside from the fact that it's disgusting?

Unless it's corned beef, of course.

Aside from the fact that it's disgusting?

Unless it's corned beef, of course.

Boiled Beef is Beef! Thus, it rocks.

And corned beef rocks even harded.

Mmmmm, dead animal. Yum.

Hungry, now. :(

Someone might want to let the Palestinians in on that. I've often wondered why it was that people don't see why where Ghandi and Mandela and M.L. king Jr. were so successful and yet the Palstinians and the Chechnians aren't. It's tactics. It's the way in which these people made their positions known to the world. These people spoke and used noviolent protest to draw world attention to their plights and the world stood up and listened and took action. The fact is that when blown up shoppers at a mall become the face of your rebellion you don't get the sympathy of the world.

That's exactly it. It's a lesson I try to get Christians to see. Aggression hardens the heart and steels the mind. They simply dig in and prepare to defend themselves. But peace and understanding is a wall that people eventually tire of bashing themselves against and the only ones who can break that wall are the people who erected it. By erecting a wall of peace and understanding I give myself all the power. I can't be forced into aggression, nor dropping to the level of verbal and physical abuse.

I own that wall when I want it to be so and the world sides with one of two groups, the ones they think will win or the ones they think are right. When you're the people of most nations you only have the ability to become the ones they think are right.

That's exactly it. It's a lesson I try to get Christians to see. Aggression hardens the heart and steels the mind. They simply dig in and prepare to defend themselves. But peace and understanding is a wall that people eventually tire of bashing themselves against and the only ones who can break that wall are the people who erected it. By erecting a wall of peace and understanding I give myself all the power. I can't be forced into aggression, nor dropping to the level of verbal and physical abuse.

I own that wall when I want it to be so and the world sides with one of two groups, the ones they think will win or the ones they think are right. When you're the people of most nations you only have the ability to become the ones they think are right.
We agree? I have to admit I thought you were going to call me racist for pointing out Palestinian tactics. Then I read that you agreed with me and now I think its going to be the Apocolypse. I mean, real Bible type stuff. Seven horsemen. Fire from the sky.

We agree? I have to admit I thought you were going to call me racist for pointing out Palestinian tactics. Then I read that you agreed with me and now I think its going to be the Apocolypse. I mean, real Bible type stuff. Seven horsemen. Fire from the sky.

Four horsemen, seven seals....I think...

Four horsemen, seven seals....I think...

Yes. But I laughed when PD said it.

Yes. But I laughed when PD said it.

Heh, twas an all around comical post I'd say.

Four horsemen, seven seals....I think...
Whatever. :p

Someone might want to let the Palestinians in on that. I've often wondered why it was that people don't see why where Ghandi and Mandela and M.L. king Jr. were so successful and yet the Palstinians and the Chechnians aren't. It's tactics. It's the way in which these people made their positions known to the world. These people spoke and used noviolent protest to draw world attention to their plights and the world stood up and listened and took action. The fact is that when blown up shoppers at a mall become the face of your rebellion you don't get the sympathy of the world.
I take a very cynical view of this. I believe that the bottom line, the bedrock motivation of all terrorists and warmongers is ego. Terrorism is the ultimate ego trip.

As you point out, violence accomplishes none of the things terrorists claim they are trying to accomplish. No country or tribe or whatever has ever been liberated from oppression by terrorist tactics. Ever. So why do they keep doing it? Well, terrorism does accomplish one thing. It makes terrorists famous. It makes them the focus of the world's attention. If they really work at it, they might even get the whole world to revolve around them for a while.

I mean, look at Arafat. Look at bin Ladin. Lazy, greedy, self-serving scumbags basking in the spotlight of notoriety. Look at the theatrics of their lives. It's all about grabbing attention. Arafat dressed up like he's manning the rubble barricades every damned day of his life. bin Ladin lounging about in those Arabian Nights outfits like some latter day Saladin here to restore Arab power -- i.e. satisfy Arab egos. Even suicide bombers are ego-tripping, imo. Imagine it: You're the bottom of the heap, dregs of society, no hope, no vision, no options, and nobody cares how you feel or what you think -- but if you blow yourself up in a shopping mall or on a school bus, then for one shining, booming moment, all those people who have been ignoring you will pay attention to you and nothing but you, and you'll be the most important thing that ever happened to them.

It's the same with America today. Bush is all about his own personal privileges and gratifying his own ego. Cheney's politics make no sense unless you consider the boost to his ego he gets from his schemes. King George and Cheney the Puppetmaster. Take a good look at the political rhetoric these guys sell to average Americans and you keep getting the same ego-seducing message -- hey, this is all about you because you're special, you're the best, we live to serve you. The terrorists are out to get you. You need to be kept safe because you are the light of the world. You can trust us because we only care about you. Iillegal workers and outsourcing is good for you -- hey, you don't want to rake yards or build computers, do you? Of course not, your're an American and you're better than that. After all, Jesus is your personal savior (read: assistant); he died on the cross to help you get rich, lose weight, rearrange the world for your comfort. You're good because you're you. And all those fat, lazy bastards who can't work up the energy to do anything but complain about why others won't give them credit for things they didn't do are eating it up like fast food hamburgers (cooked fast for you because you shouldn't have to wait).

Never underestimate the lengths people will go to in order to gratify their egos. It is the single most dangerous thing in the world.

Thus endeth the rant. I thank you. (*bows. goes out for coffee.*)

*snip* Even suicide bombers are ego-tripping, imo. Imagine it: You're the bottom of the heap, dregs of society, no hope, no vision, no options, and nobody cares how you feel or what you think -- but if you blow yourself up in a shopping mall or on a school bus, then for one shining, booming moment, all those people who have been ignoring you will pay attention to you and nothing but you, and you'll be the most important thing that ever happened to them. *snip*

I agree with everything else you said, but:

From Scientific American.

"You should be very proud of me. It's an honor, and you will see the results, and everybody will be happy.... whatever you do, head high, with a goal, never be without [a] goal, always have a goal in front of you and always think, 'what for.'" --Final letter to his wife by Ziad Jarrah, September 11 terrorist who crashed Flight 93 into a Pennsylvania field
Police have an expression for people who put themselves into circumstances that force officers to shoot them: "suicide by cop." Following this lingo, suicide bombers commit "suicide by murder," so I propose we call such acts "murdercide": the killing of a human or humans with malice aforethought by means of self-murder.

The reason we need semantic precision is that suicide has drawn the attention of scientists, who understand it to be the product of two conditions quite unrelated to murdercide: ineffectiveness and disconnectedness. According to Florida State University psychologist Thomas Joiner, in his remarkably revealing scientific treatise Why People Die by Suicide (Harvard University Press, 2006): "People desire death when two fundamental needs are frustrated to the point of extinction; namely, the need to belong with or connect to others, and the need to feel effective with or to influence others."
By this theory, the people who chose to jump from the World Trade Center rather than burning to death were not suicidal; neither were the passengers on Flight 93 who courageously fought the hijackers for control of the plane that ultimately crashed into a Pennsylvania field; and neither were the hijackers who flew the planes into the buildings.

The belief that suicide bombers are poor, uneducated, disaffected or disturbed is contradicted by science. Marc Sageman, a forensic psychiatrist at the Foreign Policy Research Institute, found in a study of 400 Al Qaeda members that three quarters of his sample came from the upper or middle class. Moreover, he noted, "the vast majority--90 percent--came from caring, intact families. Sixty-three percent had gone to college, as compared with the 5-6 percent that's usual for the third world. These are the best and brightest of their societies in many ways." Nor were they sans employment and familial duties. "Far from having no family or job responsibilities, 73 percent were married and the vast majority had children.... Three quarters were professionals or semiprofessionals. They are engineers, architects and civil engineers, mostly scientists. Very few humanities are represented, and quite surprisingly very few had any background in religion."

Joiner postulates that a necessary condition for suicide is habituation to the fear about the pain involved in the act. How do terrorist organizations infuse this condition in their recruits? One way is through psychological reinforcement. University of Haifa political scientist Ami Pedahzur writes in Suicide Terrorism (Polity Press, 2005) that the celebration and commemoration of suicide bombings that began in the 1980s changed a culture into one that idolizes martyrdom and its hero. Today murderciders appear in posters like star athletes.

Another method of control is "group dynamics." Says Sageman: "The prospective terrorists joined the jihad through preexisting social bonds with people who were already terrorists or had decided to join as a group. In 65 percent of the cases, preexisting friendship bonds played an important role in this process." Those personal connections help to override the natural inclination to avoid self-immolation. "The suicide bombers in Spain are another perfect example. Seven terrorists sharing an apartment and one saying, 'Tonight we're all going to go, guys.' You can't betray your friends, and so you go along. Individually, they probably would not have done it."

One method to attenuate murdercide, then, is to target dangerous groups that influence individuals, such as Al *Qaeda. Another method, says Princeton University economist Alan B. Krueger, is to increase the civil liberties of the countries that breed terrorist groups. In an analysis of State Department data on terrorism, Krueger discovered that "countries like Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, w hich have spawned relatively many terrorists, are economically well off yet lacking in civil liberties. Poor countries with a tradition of protecting civil liberties are unlikely to spawn suicide terrorists. Evidently, the freedom to assemble and protest peacefully without interference from the government goes a long way to providing an alternative to terrorism." Let freedom ring.

I agree with everything else you said, but:

From Scientific American.
<snip>
One method to attenuate murdercide, then, is to target dangerous groups that influence individuals, such as Al *Qaeda. Another method, says Princeton University economist Alan B. Krueger, is to increase the civil liberties of the countries that breed terrorist groups. In an analysis of State Department data on terrorism, Krueger discovered that "countries like Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, w hich have spawned relatively many terrorists, are economically well off yet lacking in civil liberties. Poor countries with a tradition of protecting civil liberties are unlikely to spawn suicide terrorists. Evidently, the freedom to assemble and protest peacefully without interference from the government goes a long way to providing an alternative to terrorism." Let freedom ring.
When I described the lowly state of suicide bombers, I was really talking about their sense of themselves. I know that suicide bombers are increasingly being recruited from educated, relatively well off and stable social groups, but from what I have read, interviews with would-be suicide bombers who were caught -- like Richard Reid -- all indicate low self-esteem coupled with frustration at feeling anonymous, unable to make a difference in their personal world, no matter how hard they try. You can be a successful businessman with a family, a house, two cars, a vote that counts, etc., and still feel like the dregs of society that no one cares about.

I quoted the last paragraph of your quote from Scientific American (excellent article, btw) because I think it highlights the problem/solution: The free exercise of civil liberties gives people a way to get the attention they crave in a positive participatory manner. They can make a difference. If people are not despairing, then demagogues will not be able to exploit despair.

Now that we've found a key to the problem of terrorism, let's ask ourselves about what I see as the harder, potentially more dangerous issue -- the American side of the ego-trip.

When I described the lowly state of suicide bombers, I was really talking about their sense of themselves. I know that suicide bombers are increasingly being recruited from educated, relatively well off and stable social groups, but from what I have read, interviews with would-be suicide bombers who were caught -- like Richard Reid -- all indicate low self-esteem coupled with frustration at feeling anonymous, unable to make a difference in their personal world, no matter how hard they try. You can be a successful businessman with a family, a house, two cars, a vote that counts, etc., and still feel like the dregs of society that no one cares about.

I quoted the last paragraph of your quote from Scientific American (excellent article, btw) because I think it highlights the problem/solution: The free exercise of civil liberties gives people a way to get the attention they crave in a positive participatory manner. They can make a difference. If people are not despairing, then demagogues will not be able to exploit despair.

Now that we've found a key to the problem of terrorism, let's ask ourselves about what I see as the harder, potentially more dangerous issue -- the American side of the ego-trip.

I think it should also be noted that we award these maniacs a celebrity status of sorts, a soapbox on which to be heard by the world when nothing else works. Do you think anyone else would have even heard of the unibomber's manifesto if he hadn't been nuts? We give psychos noteriety and then act shocked when *gasp* psychos commit offenses simply to gain noteriety.

And we don't care if the noteriety we give them makes any sense. We heard all about how the "Trenchcoat Mafia" were outcasts and loners and there were six of them. I know my circle of friends didn't have six people in it. Six people that committed to each other? How the hell can anyone suggest they were loners?

We reward the psychos and then we complain when the exact same thing happens again. You want to end school shootings? Here's a thought - stop giving psychos seeking fifteen minutes of fame their fifteen minutes of fame. Yes, they'll probably still be suicidal and maybe they'll take someone with them, unfortunately but at least it won't be a bunch of kids sitting in class and watching their classmates either gunned down by other classmates or cops.

I think it should also be noted that we award these maniacs a celebrity status of sorts, a soapbox on which to be heard by the world when nothing else works. Do you think anyone else would have even heard of the unibomber's manifesto if he hadn't been nuts? We give psychos noteriety and then act shocked when *gasp* psychos commit offenses simply to gain noteriety.

And we don't care if the noteriety we give them makes any sense. We heard all about how the "Trenchcoat Mafia" were outcasts and loners and there were six of them. I know my circle of friends didn't have six people in it. Six people that committed to each other? How the hell can anyone suggest they were loners?

We reward the psychos and then we complain when the exact same thing happens again. You want to end school shootings? Here's a thought - stop giving psychos seeking fifteen minutes of fame their fifteen minutes of fame. Yes, they'll probably still be suicidal and maybe they'll take someone with them, unfortunately but at least it won't be a bunch of kids sitting in class and watching their classmates either gunned down by other classmates or cops.
Well, in the Islamic world, I don't think its so much that we in the West give them noteriety.
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pal-child-abuse/index.php?imgIndex=1&autoShow=off

Well, in the Islamic world, I don't think its so much that we in the West give them noteriety.
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pal-child-abuse/index.php?imgIndex=1&autoShow=off
Same difference, as we used to say in the 'hood. Everybody's guilty of it because everyone wants to be big, famous, important. In both worlds, getting famous for being a murdercidal loser is a lot easier than getting famous for doing something with your life because murdercide doesn't require talent. And if you happen to be a big boring loser, who would you rather idolize -- the guy just like you or the guy who shows up what a big boring loser you are with all his talent, brains and energy? Guess we're not such different cultures after all.

Well, in the Islamic world, I don't think its so much that we in the West give them noteriety.
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pal-child-abuse/index.php?imgIndex=1&autoShow=off

Pardon? They are given noteriety in the Islamic world and the Western world.

Pardon? They are given noteriety in the Islamic world and the Western world.
Simply pointing out that their motivation comes from closer to home and from a very young age.

First I apologize for ruining the tone

Secondly I must note That within the following I disagree with individuals opinions in numerous ways, If I misrepresent what you were saying please let me know.

To begin, America has done awful things in the past yes, with that I can agree to the utmost. However I don’t believe that our civil rights are in such a dismal state as many seem to believe. Yes perhaps preventing the sharing of sex toys between individuals is a tad bit harsh. But I don’t think that is quite on the same level, as the hideous things we did to Native Americans, or the enslavement of blacks, or the repression of Women. To compare the two seems to lower the majestic aspects of the struggles they made for those problems. Perhaps then again my eyes are closed as they often have been. Yet, I have to wonder at what point will everything be acceptable? At what point will the wrongs of tomorrow cease to be an aspect today? We continue to bring up the mistakes people made eons into the future?

I myself am a Heterosexual Middleclass white male, but I don’t wake up everyday and wonder how I can oppress the minorities today. We have made so much progress, in so many areas, yet it never seems enough to satisfy the most stringent critics. I ask when will be enough? At what point will people stop playing discrimination for politics? For even if all the present groups obtain complete and utter acceptance, just around that corner are more groups screaming oppression. Why in Utah there is a pro polygamy group, protesting about how their rights are denied. I am in no way saying that discrimination is a good thing, or that we have done enough. I simply wonder when it will be over.

Along those thoughts it seems that most believe that the majority of people support Liberal principles. Sadly this isn’t so, and will not be so in the near future. It is because of flaws that both spectrums are guilty of. It is the utter disregard that anything the other side says is right. One side will always be Godless Baby eaters, and the other Fanatical Bigots. How is your side the more righteous? Simply calling what another believes evil doesn’t make it so. It isn’t so much a what is good about our selves as what is wrong about our opponent. Tell me I’m wrong. The instant anyone makes a mistake no matter how small, the other side seizes upon it a show of how righteous we are. It is simple foolishness. You may agree with me totally, but until you see Red America as something more than a collection of bigoted hicks you will be guilty of the same thing.

“Why should we tolerate those who are obviously wrong!” an impressive statement that is forwarded by so many rival sects. Something which everyone is guilty of. Yes there are bigots, but there are just as many people out there who are just as intolerant of intolerance. Simply calling someone a bigot, a fool, or stupid, and then waiving your picket sign wins you no love and no votes. If this is such a noble cause than perhaps individuals can come up with decent arguments, rather than resorting to labeling there opponents Homophobic, Racist, Fanatic, and Intolerant. In the coming years it would be most extremely helpful if both sides simply stopped the screaming, you may say that the greater portion of America will realize the error of these conservatives. Whatever the case they had best do it soon. While the New South’s Population is ever growing, the Cold Northern Blue states are ever shrinking. Conservatism, whether for the best or the worst is on the rise, if only be default. It is an opportune time to capitalize on everything that has been done wrong, but alas we cannot move beyond the fact that these hicks no nothing of what they speak.

You may not love religion, but these people do. Your irreverence to there beliefs makes them feel exactly the same way you do when they say all gays burn in hell. When you call Conservatives Evil, call them Nazis, or call them fools. You polarize the debate. People screech about the shrinking middle ground all the while hurling insults unto their opposition. If you truly want a united America, now is the time to reel in your extremes, to stop idiotically criticizing your opponent simply because he is your opponent. To extend the arms of friendship, not bristle in your distrust.

Most people in this country believe that exact same thing, we just go about it different ways. For you to proclaim that your way is the only way, and all others are wrong. Smacks of the same intolerance that you dislike. How different are you then than any other bigoted self righteous group?

Lastly it remains to be said that Peaceful uprisings are not always for the best. And that Armed uprisings often succeed. Hitler was elected Democratically, and remained with intense popular support for his entire reign, surely that peaceful process was for the best? Peace does not always generate the desired results, are very government was born in sweat and blood, and achieved a mostly just cause. England by Cromwell, Spain by Franco, Russia by Lenin all examples of armed uprisings succeeding. Even such small countries as Finland have succeeded in using Violence. Lastly I must say on the subject of Civil Rights a semi quote by Malcom X. On the subject of the civil rights, he joked that the reason that people were so willing to talk to Mr. King, was because else wise they would have to talk to him. Violence can and does often play a roll, the trick is, using the violence, not letting it use you.

That being said I am finished in my short pitiful attempt to provide meaning, I wish you all Luck, and strongly urge someone to correct / point out my flaws.