NationStates Jolt Archive

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/03/22/muslim.court/index.html

What's your opinion?

Better add some commentary [or] this could be "con"sidered spam.

At the risk of hijacking...what [the] hell is "th"is?

At the risk of hijacking...what [the] hell is "th"is?
I've lost even more :of: my marbles.

I though they had uniforms in Britian.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/03/22/muslim.court/index.html

What's your opinion?

My opinion: So what?

Oh noes! Division among High School students! That's such a new phenominon!!!

I guess British people have never seen any of John Hughes's films.

If the chick wants her head covered, let her cover it. Big deal.

It's a good decision. School uniforms exist for a reason, and this school had already bent over backwards to accommodate her as much as possible. If you can't follow the rules, you can't be part of the school.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/03/22/muslim.court/index.html

What's your opinion?
"... the head teacher at the school at the time was a Muslim, and that the rules were acceptable to mainstream Muslim opinion."

Sounds like the court decision was right on to me.

My opinion: So what?

Oh noes! Division among High School students! That's such a new phenominon!!!

I guess British people have never seen any of John Hughes's films.

If the chick wants her head covered, let her cover it. Big deal.

What about wearing Gang colors?

This is nothing new - there was a case like this in France (actually, more than one) several years ago. The thing is, students weren't required to wear school uniforms, but they were prohibited from wearing anything that displayed religious affiliation (crosses, yarmukles, turbans) because it was a public school. That policy is mentioned at the end of the article - they say a ban on religious symbols in school was instituted nationwide last year, but many French schools or school districts had their own ban before then.

Well?

If the school had a uniform policy they enforced; it's rather obvious when you visit the campus. I have noticed that while investigating schools for my kid.

The fact they tried to work with her is honorable.

She didn't like it and went to a school that didn't care.

So what's the problem?

What about wearing Gang colors?

What about it?

They tried all of this in Texas and it just didn't work. So a gang happens to use blue as their color ... gonna ban all blue clothing? What if your school colors include blue?

Banning a color is as stupid as banning someone from wearing a cross around their neck or a kippah or a headscarf. It's just stupid. High School kids are naturally rebellious. Banning something merely empowers it.

Of course, this isn't happening in the US ... it's a British school and, well, they can do what they want. Not my problem.

What about it?

They tried all of this in Texas and it just didn't work. So a gang happens to use blue as their color ... gonna ban all blue clothing? What if your school colors include blue?

Banning a color is as stupid as banning someone from wearing a cross around their neck or a kippah or a headscarf.

Which is why you have uniforms...

Well nice to see other countries that proclaim being free in the news violating people's civil rights instead of always hearing about America's faults.

Which is why you have uniforms...

No we don't ... they do ... but we don't. We like it that way.

School uniforms are pointless and silly. Every reason I've ever heard in favor of them is so easy to shoot down it's almost laughable anyone would condone their use.

What about it?

They tried all of this in Texas and it just didn't work. So a gang happens to use blue as their color ... gonna ban all blue clothing? What if your school colors include blue?

Banning a color is as stupid as banning someone from wearing a cross around their neck or a kippah or a headscarf. It's just stupid. High School kids are naturally rebellious. Banning something merely empowers it.

Of course, this isn't happening in the US ... it's a British school and, well, they can do what they want. Not my problem.
Let me preface this with the fact that I don't agree with ANY dress codes for schools.

However, I do feel that IF a school has a dress code then it should be applied to all students equally, regardless of their religious or philosophical beliefs. For instance, my high school had a short-lived rule banning hats and headwear, including headphones, bandanas, and tiaras (yes, that last one actually came up). In that situation, I believe a Muslim head scarf should be prohibited because it fits within the scope of banned items. However, my school also had to toss out its dress code after less than a semester, in part because there were so many Jewish students who were offended at being forbidden to wear their caps. The school (rightfully) realized that it would be wrong of them to allow one special group to wear hats while banning hats for all others, so they tossed out the rule completely.

No we don't ... they do ... but we don't. We like it that way.

School uniforms are pointless and silly. Every reason I've ever heard in favor of them is so easy to shoot down it's almost laughable anyone would condone their use.

Well... wouldn't this (and yours above) be the perfect example of why you should have them?

The school (rightfully) realized that it would be wrong of them to allow one special group to wear hats while banning hats for all others, so they tossed out the rule completely.

Wow ... an intelligent decision by a school board? Awesome. :D

Well... wouldn't this (and yours above) be the perfect example of why you should have them?

No, not at all. How do you figure?

Wow ... an intelligent decision by a school board? Awesome. :D
My school was really really odd. Extremely underfunded, heavily populated by lower-class minority groups, located in "America's Heartland," yet somehow full of great teachers, relatively intelligent administrators, and well-informed and compassionate students. On paper, it would probably look like it would become a failing school that perpetuates all the negative stereotypes about poor minorities, but instead it was a pretty bitchin' place.

Well nice to see other countries that proclaim being free in the news violating people's civil rights instead of always hearing about America's faults.
It depends "civil rights" are based on the country they are in.

Apparently they are not violating "civil rights"

On second thought, I believe there's a deeper issue here than just making exceptions for a particular student's religious practices. You notice that the head of the school is Muslim, as is most of its student body? That the head of school and most of those Muslims are "mainstream"? That the teacher did not want the girl to wear a full covering because it might send the message that she was a "better Muslim" than other students?

I think what's going on here is that the head of school and the Muslim community in that area, who are perfectly aware of the current political/religious/ethnic tensions going on in the world, don't want to seem like they are condoning fundamentalism. For them, it may be very important to maintain a balance between fitting in and maintaining their identity, and a student who is particularly conservative could upset that balance.

At the school I attended, the dress code permitted Christians to wear a crucifix, Jews to wear a skullcap, Sikhs to wear a turban, Muslims to wear a headscarf, and the atheists were satisfied with the nihilistic slogan-free uniform polo shirts. There is really no need to loosen a uniform policy further, certainly not as far as allowing what amounts to full national costume. It defeats the point of a uniform, and it would have found itself in conflict with my school's openly stated liberal ideal.

It depends "civil rights" are based on the country they are in.

Apparently they are not violating "civil rights"

Well this is certainly falling under a violation of religious freedom. This school has some serious problems trying to stop her from wearing what she feels her religion demands.

Well this is certainly falling under a violation of religious freedom. This school has some serious problems trying to stop her from wearing what she feels her religion demands.
True this is violating religious freedoms

But most countries do at some level or another

I must say I'm very surprised and impressed that a sensible decision has been made by these decrepit old fogies in the House of Lords. They usually automatically take the side of society's whingers, so it genuinely surprises me to see common sense prevailing for once. I hear she also wants to see about taking an appeal to the European Court of Human Rights. But I remember reading about a case where that court ruled in favour of headscarf bans that are in place in Turkish schools and universities. So I can't see her getting anywhere on that one.

School uniforms are there for a reason. I hate wearing a uniform, but I deal with it. If it conflicts with somebody's beliefs then that's just tough. I don't see why somebody should be able to run crying to the courts whenever they find that they can't get everything their own way in life.

But I think that this case also highlights the potential damage that the victim culture can inflict on this society. Signing up to the European Convention on Human Rights and incorporating it into domestic law under the Human Rights Act have been some of the most idiotic decisions that British governments have made. All it means is that when a person can't get everything their way, they throw their toys around in the pram and complain to the courts. Then the judges can just snap their fingers and reach a decision on as much as their own personal opinions. Thankfully they made the right decision this time, but they could easily not have done. This is putting too much power in the hands of judges, we need to repeal the laws that allow them to do this. You're putting the selfish desires of an individual before the community at large.

We also need a headscarf ban like they've done in France. They had the right idea.

Well this is certainly falling under a violation of religious freedom. This school has some serious problems trying to stop her from wearing what she feels her religion demands.

Govt ueber god.

I don't see why somebody should be able to run crying to the courts whenever they find that they can't get everything their own way in life.


Yeah! People should just bend over and let their rights be violated.

Yeah! People should just bend over and let their rights be violated.
You shouldn't always cater for everyone. Sometimes it can be desireable to tell people to just shut up and deal with it. I don't see why out society should keep bending over backwards to pacify a minority.

No, not at all. How do you figure?

Well, a nice mono-tone grey perfectly encapsulates that life-force draining feeling all high school kids should have. :D

You shouldn't always cater for everyone. Sometimes it can be desireable to tell people to just shut up and deal with it. I don't see why out society should keep bending over backwards to pacify a minority.

There are certain minorities - or members of minority groups - who will make a mountain out of a molehill when they think they have something to gain. They give people who are genuinely working for causes such as feminism and religious and racial equality a bad name. It's kind of like The Boy Who Cried Wolf.

I gather that the school in this article is a private school, so it can make whatever decisions it wants and whoever is not okay with them can just go to another school. If it's a public school, though (with British schools, it's kind of hard to tell, at least for a dumb American like me), then having any kind of dress code beyond a "decency standard" is wrong.

Well, a nice mono-tone grey perfectly encapsulates that life-force draining feeling all high school kids should have. :D

ROFL! You may have a point there ....

I'm not sure I see what all the fuss is about. She was clearly able to go to a school wear she could wear the traditional outfit, and obtain her education. If her religion demanded she wear the traditional outfit, and it was impossible for her to obtain her education anywhere in her region due to uniform dress codes, I would concede that she had a point.

Sounds like the court made the right decision in my book.

True this is violating religious freedoms

But most countries do at some level or another

I just feel that as one of the few countries that can claim to be actually free can stop someone from excersising their rights in this way.

I gather that the school in this article is a private school, so it can make whatever decisions it wants and whoever is not okay with them can just go to another school. If it's a public school, though (with British schools, it's kind of hard to tell, at least for a dumb American like me), then having any kind of dress code beyond a "decency standard" is wrong.
No, it was a state school. The vast majority of schools in this country, both state and private, have uniforms. That's the way it's always been done in this country and it's served us well so far. I don't see why we should suddenly make any allowances for whingers.

No, it was a state school. The vast majority of schools in this country, both state and private, have uniforms. That's the way it's always been done in this country and it's served us well so far. I don't see why we should suddenly make any allowances for whingers.

That clears it up. No public school in this country has school uniforms (that I know of, anyway), but private schools do.

It's absurd in a free country that people shouldn't be able to dress appropriately for their religion.

I just feel that as one of the few countries that can claim to be actually free can stop someone from excersising their rights in this way.
It wont stop them or anyone else from claiming that

Fuck the USA still makes the claim to be the "land of the free"

It's absurd in a free country that people shouldn't be able to dress appropriately for their religion.
No kidding ... my religion says I should not be wearing cloths. Frigging faccists forcing me to

(sorry making light of it ... personaly if it was up to me people could wear whatever the fuck they want up to and including nothing)

No kidding ... my religion says I should not be wearing cloths. Frigging faccists forcing me to

(sorry making light of it ... personaly if it was up to me people could wear whatever the fuck they want up to and including nothing)

It gets pretty cold now doesn't it? But I guess you got to suffer for your religious beliefs. ;)

It's absurd in a free country that people shouldn't be able to dress appropriately for their religion.
Britain isn't a free country, I would have thought that people would have woken up to that fact a long time ago. Unrestricted freedoms are never a good thing for any society.

No we don't ... they do ... but we don't. We like it that way.

School uniforms are pointless and silly. Every reason I've ever heard in favor of them is so easy to shoot down it's almost laughable anyone would condone their use.

Actually the schools over here have them and found them very useful. It eliminated the status crap of who has the best outfit.

It also made it easier on parents budgets as the cloths are simple and inexpensive.

Nothing wrong with uniforms. Used them in Catholic school.....

No kidding ... my religion says I should not be wearing cloths. Frigging faccists forcing me to

(sorry making light of it ... personaly if it was up to me people could wear whatever the fuck they want up to and including nothing)

Thank GOD the laws make you keep your cloths on you ugly bastard! :p

It eliminated the status crap of who has the best outfit.

Kids make fun of each other over the name their parents gave them or what kind of car mommy drives. A uniform takes away so little from that. It's like throwing a drop of water at the sun.

It also made it easier on parents budgets as the cloths are simple and inexpensive.

That's a non-issue. If a parent can't afford expensive clothes, so be it. I can't afford to buy my kids expensive clothes, but I don't in turn tell my neighbor he can't do it because I can't.

The school said the jilbab posed a health and safety risk and might cause divisions among pupils.

Health risk, wtf? Someone explain that to me please.

Eighty percent of Denbigh's 1,000 pupils are Muslim, and the school feared those who wore traditional dress might be seen as "better Muslims" than others.

Welcome to the universe of adolscence. No matter what you force them to wear students will always try to find a way to "stand out". This competition is nothing unnatural.

Overall it just seems like an unecessary thing to ban and will only provoke trouble for the days to come.

Health risk, wtf? Someone explain that to me please.
Fire? Less mobility in a life-or-death escape situation?


Overall it just seems like an unecessary thing to ban and will only provoke trouble for the days to come.

Not really. This is an old story. There is a hierarchy of "I'm a better Muslim/Christian/Jew then you are"- in this case it was about the full body being covered or merely the headscarf. Others say that morally the full body is 'better' and therefore she is a better Muslim. That puts pressure on others, creates resentment etc etc.

School was right in this case. Welcome to a secular public school system.

This is censorship.

It's not offensive, it's not inappropriate, and it’s not making any statement, let her be.

In other news.. I am very thrusty.

It's absurd in a free country that people shouldn't be able to dress appropriately for their religion.

They can. People can wear whatever weird shit they want, unlike in muslim countries. But if you choose to go somewhere with a dress code, you can either stick to the dress code or go somewhere else. Besides, Islam only says people, men and women, should dress modestly. The full body covering is a matter of choice. The ones who positively insist on it (but just for women of course) are fundamentalists, and are not welcome in this or any other civilised country.

School was right in this case. Welcome to a secular public school system.
The French have begun (by default, I guess) this process of identifying secularism in school with display of one's own religion. It's unsustainable: secularism is "no religion from the school", not "no religion from the schoolgoers".

The French have begun (by default, I guess) this process of identifying secularism in school with display of one's own religion. It's unsustainable: secularism is "no religion from the school", not "no religion from the schoolgoers".

Meh. Hair splitting. Better to have everyone inconvienced then only the minority in this sort of situation- then at least you cannot be accused of favouritism towards any religion. Bigger can of worms.

She was not denied her education- there are (and like in France) religious schools who gladly cater for that. Same as if you were very Catholic or Baptist or Mormon or Zoaraster whatever- I'm sure you'll find a school that caters for your religious needs. There were options- she decided fuck that, I'm going to bully my 'rights' through.

Meh. Hair splitting. Better to have everyone inconvienced then only the minority.

She was not denied her education- there are (and like in France) religious schools who gladly cater for that. Same as if you were very Catholic or Baptist or Mormon or Zoaraster whatever- I'm sure you'll find a school that caters for your religious needs. There were options- she decided fuck that, I'm going to bully my 'rights' through.
Well, the one major impact of secularism in education is mandatory education. Which means that it is the state's part of the social contract to offer a neutral approach to it - same as arguments regarding ethnocentrism in a civil society.
The point you make has a flaw: religious schools don't exist as an alternative where you can have a religion, but rather as the alternative where teaching can have a religion. The state should only make sure that this still happens, not that people display their religion when it happens to them. Consider a state transport system that would tell you to use another if you fail to show up as English or French.

Well, the one major impact of secularism in education is mandatory education. Which means that it is the state's part of the social contract to offer a neutral approach to it - same as arguments regarding ethnocentrism in a civil society.
The point you make has a flaw: religious schools don't exist as an alternative where you can have a religion, but rather as the alternative where teaching can have a religion. The state should only make sure that this still happens, not that people display their religion when it happens to them. Consider a state transport system that would tell you to use another if you fail to show up as English or French.

Not a flaw if the religious schools are private.

Not a flaw if the religious schools are private.
It would be scandalous for a state that is supposed to be providing free (or, cheap - depending on the system), universal, un-biased, social education to be telling people who have only been, as far as we know, offending a minority, to exercise rights that are otherwise guaranteed by fundamental laws only after going to a private school for "them guys".

It would be scandalous for a state...

Really? Would anyone really care that much?

I severly doubt it.

Really? Would anyone really care that much?

I severly doubt it.
I didn't imply that it would be a scandal (sigh), but that it should be a scandal.
It bothers me that countries like mine in Eastern Europe etc could indeed only improve themselves by dropping ethnocentrism and official culture (masquerading as secularism), only to find that our models are reverting to jingoism and poujardism.

Thank GOD the laws make you keep your cloths on you ugly bastard! :p
Ouch ... just another example of the "icky" factor restricting liberties :) :p :fluffle:

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/03/22/muslim.court/index.html

What's your opinion?


Good.


NEXT!

I though they had uniforms in Britian.

They do. Thats what this is about