NationStates Jolt Archive


Diesel Wins Endurance Sportscar Race-Future for the Road?

Cannot think of a name
22-03-2006, 11:22
Audi's diesel powered A10 Le Mans Prototype has won the 12 Hours of Sebring (http://www.europapress.es/europa2003/noticia.aspx?tabID=1&ch=137&cod=20060320202114), the first race in the American Le Mans Series, a series of races for the famous Le Mans Endurance race cars.

While racing, even as a fan, I have to admit is for the most part an excess, this might be the kind of classic purposes of racing-to improve the breed. What's lost in Americas Great Endurance race, the Indianapolis 500, was that it was a race of development, giving us innovations like rear view mirrors. But while innovations still come from the track, racing has long lost that major impact on the larger world of automobiles.

Le Mans has tried been the hold out. Cadillac worked out things like heads up infrared displays and the Northstar engine on their mixed result attempt at Le Mans, and before returning to conventional means Panoz initially attempted to run a hybrid at the big event (it didn't qualify).

The truth is, between air standard issues and fuel supply issues something has to be done sooner rather than later. Scientists and experts are starting to say that we don't have the ten to fifteen years to wait for the introduction of hydrogen cars. Something needs to fill the gap. Europe has been handling this with diesel engines, America has been more reluctant. Diesels have the reputation of puggly, slow, the domain of haulers instead of people who want to haul.

But the Audi has dispelled that with a bang. And it didn't win the way the tortoise did, it took the previously remarkable Audi R8s time and bested it by over 2 seconds per lap, ending the race four laps ahead of its nearest competitor.

But that diesels can actually haul is not news to the Europeans, who thanks to my nocturnal nature are probably going to be the first ones to read this. But regardless of where on the globe this win is an accomplishment And as much as I am a fan, AMLS doesn't have near the popular attention that NASCAR does with its old school push rod V8s. American racing's foray into alternative fuels involves the IRL switching to ethonal (http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?id=2003457) for the 2006 season.

The advantage to diesel is that it is already available, and also can be produced with bio-products. And who wouldn't want to buy their fuel from Willie Nelson (http://www.wnbiodiesel.com/)? It doesn't require a whole new fuel distribution for companies that are already looking at another change in the next ten to fifteen years. And with this dominating win, environmentalism and conservation doesn't need the pokey stigma of previous diesels and current hybrids. (though that can be said of ethanol as well).

VW is one of the only companies here that actively sells a diesel line in the States. Even Audi doesn't sell their diesels here. Is this win, and the likely repeat this June at La Sarthe going to be enough? Can racing take the lead once more, this time with alternative fuels? Can America warm up to a diesel hot rod?

For the Europeans and people where diesels are commonly available, how's that treating you? How is it being received, it's general perception?

I'm actually kind of excited, but I don't know that this will make much of a blip on the US' radar.

I also feel like a bad racing fan that I forgot about this race until just now. I could have gone to my friends and watched it on Speed...

EDIT: I don't want to keep bumping my own thread without any responses, but I found an even more complete race report (http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/mar2006/bw20060321_234920.htm?chan=autos_autos+index+page_news) that adresses some of the issues and brings up some more. Audi it, it seems, is hoping that this will make an impression in the US-
...Audi officials, including chief U.S. executive, Johan de Nysschen, believe a strong showing on-track, will help build demand in the States, where potential buyers remain reluctant.
Also, I knew that diesels where popular in Europe, but didn't know this:
In Europe, diesels now outsell conventional gasoline-powered vehicles
It also gives some diesel racing history-
In 1931, a Cummins-powered Duesenberg was the first diesel to run the Indianapolis 500. It finished well behind the leader, but set a yet-unchallenged record, running the entire race without a single pit stop:eek:. Cummins, today known for its long-running diesel truck engines, returned to the Brickyard several more times. In 1952, it fielded a racer fitted with what was described at the time as a "turbo supercharger." The entry had to pull out due to mechanical problems on the 71st lap, but the publicity sent Cummins sales soaring.

In recent years, privateers have fielded several diesels, including one at the challenging German Nurburgring. Meanwhile, a diesel-powered Volkswagen Touareg SUV - nicknamed Stanley - won the DARPA Challenge, last October. It was the first successful race of unmanned, self-guided vehicles, held in Nevada's Mojave Desert.
This is something that I certainly didn't expect from a diesel:
For drivers and spectators alike, the Audi's blinding speed was just one of several surprises. The other was the car's uncanny silence. It is so quiet, said Pirro, "you can't use sound to help you drive." Instead of listening for the engine note, he found himself having to rely on warning lights to properly judge shift points.
Cannot think of a name
22-03-2006, 11:38
I was going to save this for an excuse to bump, but I kind want to keep poking around to look at the stories, so I'm just going to do this now.

Lost in the hoopla about the diesel victory (by me, not by Sports Illustrated (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/racing/wires/03/18/3010.ap.car.sebring.1st.ld.writethru.0197/)) was this:
Jon Field, Clint Field and Liz Halliday finished second overall and first in the LMP2 class Lola B05/40 AER entered by Intersport Racing. Halliday is the highest-finishing female. Lyn St. James held the previous mark with a fifth-place finish.
Racing has been an old boys club for a while, but in my days in youth racing, where it was pretty much mostly raw ability, the girls where better drivers. Maybe it was because if they wanted to do it they'd have to really want to do it, whatever. They where fast. Danica Patrick isn't alone.
Philosopy
22-03-2006, 11:54
The American love affair with the V8 does seem somewhat strange from a US perspective, but then you simply don't have the financial worries about fuel costs that we have in Europe. It's astonishing to see on the news when Americans start complaining about their rising fuel costs when they're paying about a quarter of what we do in the UK.

Because the price is so excessive in this country, we look to more fuel efficient alternatives. It has to be said, though, that I don't think diesel is the way to go. We thought it was in this country a few years ago too, and tax breaks and other incentives were offered to people to buy a diesel. These are coming to an end, however, because it's been discovered that while diesel gives off less CO2 than petrol, it releases more pollutants at ground level, which has other health implications. As a result, diesel is now more expensive than petrol (per gallon; because of its low consumption it still works out cheaper as you fill up less often).

Personally, I'm not opposed to using up our fuel resources now. I think trying to be sparing with them is only leaving us with the problem for longer; if we get rid off them then trust me, people would be interested in finding an alternative now.

I'll go and take my anorak off again now.
Cannot think of a name
22-03-2006, 12:01
The American love affair with the V8 does seem somewhat strange from a US perspective, but then you simply don't have the financial worries about fuel costs that we have in Europe. It's astonishing to see on the news when Americans start complaining about their rising fuel costs when they're paying about a quarter of what we do in the UK.

Because the price is so excessive in this country, we look to more fuel efficient alternatives. It has to be said, though, that I don't think diesel is the way to go. We thought it was in this country a few years ago too, and tax breaks and other incentives were offered to people to buy a diesel. These are coming to an end, however, because it's been discovered that while diesel gives off less CO2 than petrol, it releases more pollutants at ground level, which has other health implications. As a result, diesel is now more expensive than petrol (per gallon; because of its low consumption it still works out cheaper as you fill up less often).

Personally, I'm not opposed to using up our fuel resources now. I think trying to be sparing with them is only leaving us with the problem for longer; if we get rid off them then trust me, people would be interested in finding an alternative now.

I'll go and take my anorak off again now.
The bolded part intrigues me. It's one of those things you 'knew' but didn't. I mean, we pass diesels not only because thier slow, but also because they stink. It stands to reason that 'not good' is involved there. I wonder, and I can look this up myself I guess, if biodiesel has that same problem. I'm inclined to say it doesn't, but I'm not willing to guess.

I'm a little more of an advocate of switching off entirely before it's all gone and done the related damage that it's going to do-but crisis is an amazing motivator...

EDIT:Again, in the interest of not over bumping my own thread, Autoweek (http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060320/FREE/60320011/1001) gives all four catagories-though if you care you already know. I'm bummed at Porsche's showing, but know they'll bring it at the big event and glad that the Esperante got the GT2 win because I've always like Panoz. The GT2 catagory sounds like it was exciting, with exchanges between the Porsches, Panoz, Ferraris.

The GT1 race looks like it might be interesting if Aston Martin can solve its tire heat problems, I look forward to seeing a DB9/Corvette street fight.
Cannot think of a name
22-03-2006, 13:38
I'll bump with an adjusted question-as I mentioned, the IRL is switching to Ethonal (http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?id=2003457) this year. We all know the ethanol part of the State of the Union and the 'Go Yellow' campaign (despite there not being a place to actually get ethanol in Northern California at the start of that campaign, a big concentration of people looking for alternatives). The IRL announcement was even a little political:
"This sport is so popular, and so many people follow it,'' said Missouri GOP Sen. Jim Talent, one of several Midwesterners who lobbied for ethanol's use. "This makes a statement to the whole world that ethanol is a high-performance fuel, so people who claim you're going to lose something are not correct.''

Racing officials say they're promoting the importance of the environment and of homegrown fuel.

...

The IndyCar Series is announcing the switch Thursday in Washington with talent and other lawmakers on hand.
Now it makes sense that Midwest lawmakers would want this for their constituiants, but is it as viable? I can get BioDiesel down the street, and there is the aforementioned Bio Willie (http://www.wnbiodiesel.com/)-not to mention diesel engines can be converted to run on straight vegetable oil (http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html).

Are they competing alternatives, or partners-the idea that niether by themselves is sufficient but both would compliment each other?

Does having someone like Danica Patrick (http://www.pointedmagazine.com/indy%20500%20danica%20patrick%20looks%20on%20pre%20race.jpg) as a spokesperson give ethonal an edge? (maybe I just think that 'cause I'm a fan...)

So that's my bump in continued discussion (with myself) clothing. I'll come back to this later today to see if anyone cares...
Philosopy
22-03-2006, 13:55
I think there is an interesting moral question regarding the use of bio-fuels; should we be using farms for fuel rather than food when so much of the world is starving?
Neu Leonstein
22-03-2006, 13:56
VW is one of the only companies here that actively sells a diesel line in the States. Even Audi doesn't sell their diesels here.
Are you f*cking serious?!?!?!

For the Europeans and people where diesels are commonly available, how's that treating you? How is it being received, it's general perception?
Everyone's got one. Diesel car sales have been outclassing petrol car sales for ages. Ultimately, the view (as I understand it, not having been there for a while) is that diesel is the default, and petrol engines are something of an extra if you're one of those wannabe racers, because they rev higher.

My dad's been driving diesel for as long as I can remember, C-Class Estates. The first one we had still sounded a little bit like a truck. I never smelled anything though.
The last one we had before we left Germany was absolutely quiet, pulled from nothing upwards and was almost as frugal as my mom's Fiesta.

Now that Audi is clearing that up, I'd expect the current RS4 to be the last one with a petrol engine. Which of course also opens the door for diesel Lambos...
Cannot think of a name
22-03-2006, 13:58
I think there is an interesting moral question regarding the use of bio-fuels; should we be using farms for fuel rather than food when so much of the world is starving?
An excellent segue to my plug for industrial hemp, which would grow in fields that wouldn't produce as much food anyway. But I imagine, what with subsidies and the like, that it's not current capacity that's the cause of hunger but the way we get food out.

But ultimately, it's got to come from somewhere-I'd prefer it if it was an easily renewable place...
Cannot think of a name
22-03-2006, 14:04
Are you f*cking serious?!?!?!
Feel the power of stigma...


Everyone's got one. Diesel car sales have been outclassing petrol car sales for ages. Ultimately, the view (as I understand it, not having been there for a while) is that diesel is the default, and petrol engines are something of an extra if you're one of those wannabe racers, because they rev higher.

My dad's been driving diesel for as long as I can remember, C-Class Estates. The first one we had still sounded a little bit like a truck. I never smelled anything though.
The last one we had before we left Germany was absolutely quiet, pulled from nothing upwards and was almost as frugal as my mom's Fiesta.

Now that Audi is clearing that up, I'd expect the current RS4 to be the last one with a petrol engine. Which of course also opens the door for diesel Lambos...
I hadn't thought of that...that'd certainly be a revolution...

Converting my Vanagon (the work van so my Bus doesn't get beat up anymore) to diesel and then vegitable oil is 'on the list.'

I used to day dream of making a classic American hot rod but with a diesel engine to make a point, wondering if I could find a muscly engine from Europe. Apparently, it's not as hard as I thought...
Philosopy
22-03-2006, 14:08
I used to day dream of making a classic American hot rod but with a diesel engine to make a point, wondering if I could find a muscly engine from Europe. Apparently, it's not as hard as I thought...
You wouldn't struggle at all - there are dozens of 'sporty' diesels over here. The car makers wouldn't dare to not produce a diesel version for the hot versions of their mainstream cars. You even get diesels in cabriolets these days, which seems a bit odd when they're all about posing and rumbling past in a diesel probably isn't the coolest thing you can do...
Neu Leonstein
22-03-2006, 14:21
Apparently, it's not as hard as I thought...
Of course not.

BMW 535d, for example. More torque than the M5...

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=100&i=9847
Philosopy
22-03-2006, 14:23
Of course not.

BMW 535d, for example. More torque than the M5...

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=100&i=9847
Well yes, but torque is far from everything. Put them side by side in a track race and the M5 would win by a long way (I know that because they did it on a TV programme here :p).
Neu Leonstein
22-03-2006, 14:25
Well yes, but torque is far from everything. Put them side by side in a track race and the M5 would win by a long way (I know that because they did it on a TV programme here :p).
Well yes, but that would be partly because the M5 has a lot more trick gear in terms of gear box and so on, and partly because many tracks require a bit higher-revving engines.

But since when has track time mattered if you wanted to build a muscle car? ;)
Cannot think of a name
22-03-2006, 14:29
Of course not.

BMW 535d, for example. More torque than the M5...

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=100&i=9847
MMMMmmmmm...beefy...

Though it's probably a little more of a trick to get one of those 535d engines to shove into a '49 Merc, though...

A well, I'm building no hot rods conventional or otherwise on production assistant pay...
Cannot think of a name
22-03-2006, 14:31
Well yes, but that would be partly because the M5 has a lot more trick gear in terms of gear box and so on, and partly because many tracks require a bit higher-revving engines.

But since when has track time mattered if you wanted to build a muscle car? ;)
That's about right-it's all about lighting up the tires.

Besides, with the Audi win we might start seeing those tables tip.
Philosopy
22-03-2006, 14:33
Well yes, but that would be partly because the M5 has a lot more trick gear in terms of gear box and so on, and partly because many tracks require a bit higher-revving engines.

But since when has track time mattered if you wanted to build a muscle car? ;)
True. :p

I would still go for petrol, though; I tend to find diesels (even now) are noisy, plus their higher purchase costs generally mean you would have to drive for many, many miles to justify them financially.
Cameroi
22-03-2006, 14:40
the future isn't the road. not when all you're gonna have are batteries and solar cells to recharge them with. then you have to squeze every ounce of effeciency out of the available energy and that means putting it back on rails. little tiney rails. just big enough to ride on or in.

once everybody gets done starving, the end of oil will hopefully mean the end of everybody having to be in a big sloppyass hurry.

biomass is what you'll be burning to cook on and keep warm.

the combination of solar cells on your roof and a windmill in your back yard is what will power your refrigerator and computer.

you'll find the half mile walk to the trolly stop through forrest and gardens won't kill you with plenty of nice places to sit down and rest along the way that everyone will make sure are there and don't get messed up because they'll all have to just like the rest of us.

=^^=
.../\...
Philosopy
22-03-2006, 15:12
the future isn't the road. not when all you're gonna have are batteries and solar cells to recharge them with. then you have to squeze every ounce of effeciency out of the available energy and that means putting it back on rails. little tiney rails. just big enough to ride on or in.

once everybody gets done starving, the end of oil will hopefully mean the end of everybody having to be in a big sloppyass hurry.

biomass is what you'll be burning to cook on and keep warm.

the combination of solar cells on your roof and a windmill in your back yard is what will power your refrigerator and computer.

you'll find the half mile walk to the trolly stop through forrest and gardens won't kill you with plenty of nice places to sit down and rest along the way that everyone will make sure are there and don't get messed up because they'll all have to just like the rest of us.

=^^=
.../\...
Public transport will never overtake the car. Aside from the convenience factor (and I'm afraid that the public transport utopia you envision will never happen), there is the fact that only the car offers cheap, personal transport.

You are in your own space; you don't have the drunks screaming down the carriage, you don't have the guy with that really nasty sounding cough irritating you the whole way home, you don't have the loner trying to strike up a conversation about their hygiene issues, or the child who just won't shut up and behave, or the fact you have to stand up for the entire journey because there aren't enough seats, or the endless waiting in the cold and rain because the service has been delayed...

In a car you can put the radio on to what you want to hear, and relax in your own space. I wouldn't want to live in a communal house, and I've travelled far too much by public transport to want to use it except when I have to.
Ravenshrike
22-03-2006, 16:50
The reason diesels are unpopular in the US is because of all the shitty engines from GM and the like that came out in the 70's and 80's. Pretty much turned the american public off to deisel.
Cannot think of a name
22-03-2006, 18:12
The reason diesels are unpopular in the US is because of all the shitty engines from GM and the like that came out in the 70's and 80's. Pretty much turned the american public off to deisel.
While those engines where indeed piss-poor, at the same time Mercedes was putting out fine diesel engines (why GM tried putting out a Cadillac diesel). All those Mercedes diesels still being around (and slowly migrating here to be converted to SVO) does indicate that Americans would buy a diesel, just not a shitty one.

I disagree that one manufacturer putting out a shitty engine is what made them unpopular, I really think it has more to do with the stigma of pokeyness, smell and sound.
Cannot think of a name
22-03-2006, 18:15
the future isn't the road. not when all you're gonna have are batteries and solar cells to recharge them with. then you have to squeze every ounce of effeciency out of the available energy and that means putting it back on rails. little tiney rails. just big enough to ride on or in.

once everybody gets done starving, the end of oil will hopefully mean the end of everybody having to be in a big sloppyass hurry.

biomass is what you'll be burning to cook on and keep warm.

the combination of solar cells on your roof and a windmill in your back yard is what will power your refrigerator and computer.

you'll find the half mile walk to the trolly stop through forrest and gardens won't kill you with plenty of nice places to sit down and rest along the way that everyone will make sure are there and don't get messed up because they'll all have to just like the rest of us.

=^^=
.../\...
The problem, as I mentioned in the first post, is the 'here to there,' your Utopian vision will take time-way more time than even the planed hydrogen cars and it's starting to be clear that we have to do something sooner rather than later. So the distant future, which is what you're even optomstically describing, is one thing=the question is the time in between.
Ravenshrike
22-03-2006, 19:54
While those engines where indeed piss-poor, at the same time Mercedes was putting out fine diesel engines (why GM tried putting out a Cadillac diesel). All those Mercedes diesels still being around (and slowly migrating here to be converted to SVO) does indicate that Americans would buy a diesel, just not a shitty one.

I disagree that one manufacturer putting out a shitty engine is what made them unpopular, I really think it has more to do with the stigma of pokeyness, smell and sound.
Which was caused by the introduction of a bunch of shitty deisel engines, yes.
Nadkor
23-03-2006, 00:10
My dad drives a 525i. He's always had petrol cars, apart from one mistake of a Golf diesel, which was crap and sounded like a tractor.

One time when his BMW was in for servicing they gave him a 530d.

His next car is going to be a 530d.
Cannot think of a name
23-03-2006, 00:16
My dad drives a 525i. He's always had petrol cars, apart from one mistake of a Golf diesel, which was crap and sounded like a tractor.

One time when his BMW was in for servicing they gave him a 530d.

His next car is going to be a 530d.
What did he like about, what made him make that much of a change? Yours is the kind of opinion I'm really looking for because I assume that your father is as much of a car person as you are-so that conversion intrigues me. Was it performance only or the balance of performance and economy? Or are diesels really economic (see, they don't have that many here so I don't even know if they are sold at a premium, though entries here seem to indicate that they are.)?
Saige Dragon
23-03-2006, 00:30
I'm all for diesels and such, but I don't think the R10 will last too long in the 24 Hours of Le Mans. It'll go the same way as the 787. You know kick the crap out of the conventional cars, even those in other classes and then somebody out there will claim they have an unfair advantage and diesels will be booted out just like the Wankels. I have a huge article in my C&D about it...I think I'll go read that know.:)
Nadkor
23-03-2006, 00:32
What did he like about, what made him make that much of a change? Yours is the kind of opinion I'm really looking for because I assume that your father is as much of a car person as you are-so that conversion intrigues me. Was it performance only or the balance of performance and economy? Or are diesels really economic (see, they don't have that many here so I don't even know if they are sold at a premium, though entries here seem to indicate that they are.)?
It just...goes. Feels alot more rapid; you get alot more kick in the back with acceleration in any gear. And it's more economic as well as far as I know.

The website http://www.fueleconomy.gov/ lists the 525i (which actually has a 3 litre engine) as having, for the average driver, 23mpg. The 530d (not on that site) has about 40mpg.

Also, the diesel is less polluting. It gives off 179 CO2g per square km, where as the petrol gives off 210 (source: Autocar)

So with fuel prices as they are in the UK, and with the mileage he does (about 35,000 miles per year), it works alot cheaper in the long run to have the 530d.

The 530d costs about £4,500 more than the 525i, but over the course of the four years he would have it, he'll make that back no bother in fuel.

So it offers seemingly better performance (although I don't know the figures), and much better economy.
Cannot think of a name
23-03-2006, 00:48
I'm all for diesels and such, but I don't think the R10 will last too long in the 24 Hours of Le Mans. It'll go the same way as the 787. You know kick the crap out of the conventional cars, even those in other classes and then somebody out there will claim they have an unfair advantage and diesels will be booted out just like the Wankels. I have a huge article in my C&D about it...I think I'll go read that know.:)
I'll have to look at that Car & Driver article. There is certianly a history of banning the new engine 'unfair advantage' but in this instance-where racing I believe is very close to having to fight to justify its own existance, I think we might see more tolerance towards technologies that encourage alternatives and conservation.
Cannot think of a name
23-03-2006, 00:53
It just...goes. Feels alot more rapid; you get alot more kick in the back with acceleration in any gear. And it's more economic as well as far as I know.

The website http://www.fueleconomy.gov/ lists the 525i (which actually has a 3 litre engine) as having, for the average driver, 23mpg. The 530d (not on that site) has about 40mpg.

Also, the diesel is less polluting. It gives off 179 CO2g per square km, where as the petrol gives off 210 (source: Autocar)

So with fuel prices as they are in the UK, and with the mileage he does (about 35,000 miles per year), it works alot cheaper in the long run to have the 530d.

The 530d costs about £4,500 more than the 525i, but over the course of the four years he would have it, he'll make that back no bother in fuel.

So it offers seemingly better performance (although I don't know the figures), and much better economy.
Thats pretty interesting. He does a crazy amount of driving, I can see why he'd be picky about what he does it in.

I guess my next question is, is BMW an outlier. I knew they had a sporty engine from their win at Nurbering or Spa (can't remember) 24 hour sedan race, but are they far and away from everyone else (except, I guess at this point, Audi)? Or are the other diesels about or near par?
Nadkor
23-03-2006, 00:57
Nah, I'd say that's pretty representative of the diesels of most of the big manufacturers here; Honda (especially Honda, they got a guy who designs V8s, and hates diesels, to build a diesel he would like when they were making one for the current Accord), BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Volkswagen, Toyota, Ford, Vauxhall etc. They all make brilliant diesels...because they have to, because that's what the market demands.
Cannot think of a name
23-03-2006, 01:06
Nah, I'd say that's pretty representative of the diesels of most of the big manufacturers here; Honda (especially Honda, they got a guy who designs V8s, and hates diesels, to build a diesel he would like when they were making one for the current Accord), BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Volkswagen, Toyota, Ford, Vauxhall etc. They all make brilliant diesels...because they have to, because that's what the market demands.
My brain just popped at the notion of a Honda diesel...for you guys it probably isn't as world shattering, but for yanks that's...wow...

Ford has a long tradition of being cooler to you guys than it is at home, and that has always pissed me off. Here they make pretty much dogshit while you guys get Cosworth editions and all the cool stuff. That they're making good diesels for you all is just more of that. I think they should just put the head of the European division in charge of the whole deal, it'd improve the brand.

I wonder if Ford put a diesel in a NASCAR competition and won would it have that impact? Not possible now, since they have to be push-rods, but intriguing to imagine...
Nadkor
23-03-2006, 01:15
Do you guys get anything like the Focus RS (of the old style focus), or the ST?

The Focus RS was an incredible car. Front wheel drive, but it had some fancy front diff that made it just as fast as any four wheel drive across country, and much lighter because the drive only went two wheels. And a great engine.

http://www.lexusownersclub.com/gallery/albums/album08/Focus_RS_001.jpg

* Special features included: Garret GT2560 TurboCharger, Water to Air charge cooling, Sachs Racing dampers, Brembo Brakes, Rally-derived suspension, wide track, Thatcham Cat 1 alarm, leather Sparco seats, metal pedals, alloy gear knob, air conditioning, 6CD multichanger radio, start button, blue backlit dials, turbo boost gauge and shift light, only 4500 produced
Cannot think of a name
23-03-2006, 01:21
Do you guys get anything like the Focus RS (of the old style focus), or the ST?

The Focus RS was an incredible car. Front wheel drive, but it had some fancy front diff that made it just as fast as any four wheel drive across country, and much lighter because the drive only went two wheels. And a great engine.

http://www.lexusownersclub.com/gallery/albums/album08/Focus_RS_001.jpg
See, this is what I'm talking about...no, we don't get anything that cool. Then they might actually be able to compete with the imports here...Ford wouldn't want that....
Nadkor
23-03-2006, 01:25
You guys should really start pushing people like Ford to bring stuff like that over. We get some pretty cool cars from them, and most manufacturers make one or two cars that are genuinely class, it's just a pity they don't give you the same. When I've been in the US all I've seen have been Mustangs (the previous generation, so pretty crappy), and large floaty saloons that corner on their doorhandles.

Oh, and trucks and 4x4s. We get some 4x4s, but I don't believe I've seen more than about 5 trucks on the road in the UK in my entire life. Jeremy Clarkson said the Explorer was "the worst thing I've ever driven" (and he's driven a lot of cars), and basically spent a 10 minute section on Top Gear laughing at it. Why do people buy it? Is that really the best thing out?
Cannot think of a name
23-03-2006, 01:29
You guys should really start pushing people like Ford to bring stuff like that over. We get some pretty cool cars from them, and most manufacturers make one or two cars that are genuinely class, it's just a pity they don't give you the same. When I've been in the US all I've seen have been Mustangs (the previous generation, so pretty crappy), and large floaty saloons that corner on their doorhandles.

Oh, and trucks and 4x4s. We get some 4x4s, but I don't believe I've seen more than about 5 trucks on the road in the UK in my entire life. Jeremy Clarkson said the Explorer was "the worst thing I've ever driven" (and he's driven a lot of cars), and basically spent a 10 minute section on Top Gear laughing at it. Why do people buy it? Is that really the best thing out?
The argument is we don't buy small and we have all this wide open space for our big saloons and trucks and pony cars. I think it's bullshit-if they have good cars people will buy good cars. Our magazines have been begging them for their European models for years to no avail. I think somewhere deep in their corperate strategy it's required for them to suck in their homeland...
Teh_pantless_hero
23-03-2006, 01:30
Even if diesel cars were released in the sates en masse, the cost of fuel makes the inflated spring break/summer gas prices look cheap. Diesel around here is more costly than the highest grade gasoline.
Cannot think of a name
23-03-2006, 01:32
Even if diesel cars were released in the sates en masse, the cost of fuel makes the inflated spring break/summer gas prices look cheap. Diesel around here is more costly than the highest grade gasoline.
When you factor in the 40 miles to the gallon on cars as powerful as the BMW 330d, it starts to balance out.
Nadkor
23-03-2006, 01:34
Yea, Diesel's more than petrol here as well (and the cars are generally more expensive than the petrol versions), but the economy figures generally end up giving you a saving. And I think road tax is cheaper on a diesel.