NationStates Jolt Archive

Why are humans so bad at being logical? Thats all I have to say.

There are not enough cookies
Two is an even number
Therefore, humans are bad a logic

Seriously; this is a valid argument.

Three posibillities immediately come to mind:
1. we were poorly designed
2. logic is not a survival trait
3. we are not so bad naturally - we are raised/taught to be.

There are not enough cookies
Two is an even number
Therefore, humans are bad a logic

Seriously; this is a valid argument.


According to a first year logic paper..




to the thread starter: define logic.

Yeah, well I'm only 3 weeks into my logic course :( .

According to a first year logic paper..




to the thread starter: define logic.

I guess I mean, sensibleness. Also though I mean intellectual cleanliness, it seems people just throw away cause and effect, and even corolation, when they want to believe something.

I think that society has insulated terrible parenting from the scrutiny of the tribal village to the point where we’re really lucky just to get out of childhood with both of our opposable thumbs. Combine a lack of being forced to rely on common sense for survival, with an infusion of really bad media (TV), and it’s not a big wonder that people are slow to embrace any kind of logic. While it may well be that some people are very good at working in philosophical terms, it should be noted that there are many more who aren’t.

My Nation State has over 6 billion citizens.
Earth has over 6 billion citizens.
Therefore my Nation State is an Earth sized planet.

(The fallacy of equivocation meets the fallacy of Nation States population figures)

The Bruce

Why are humans so bad at being logical? Thats all I have to say.
A Vulcan--if, for the sake of argument, we assume they exist--would say it has to do with our emotions. We allow our emotions to cloud our judgement and rule our lives. As such, it is extremely difficult for us to use logic.

I would agree with this to a point, but the Vulcan solution of repressing all emotions is not the answer. Methinks tempering oneself to a point and learning how to use one's emotions along with logic would be far better.

So, yah. There's your answer. It's our emotions.

(Anyone who wants to yell at me for using a fictional race from a science-fiction television show as part of my argument: go away. Me no care what you tink.)

There are not enough cookies
Two is an even number
Therefore, humans are bad a logic

Seriously; this is a valid argument.
No, it's invalid. It's also unsound since by definition all invalid arguments are unsound...

Because we're so good at being emotional?

No, it's invalid. It's also unsound since by definition all invalid arguments are unsound...

Sorry my mistake. Here's an improved version:

If people are mammals, they are not logical
People are mammals,
Therefore People are not logical.

This one may even be sound, never though NS General would be a good place to practice 1st year logic.

Oh and to seriously respond to the OP, I agree with Kyronea; emotions and all that Jazz; altough its only reasonable up to a point. Nice Star Trek reference btw; how can I help but agree with you :D .

Sorry my mistake. Here's an improved version:

If people are mammals, they are not logical
People are mammals,
Therefore People are not logical.


Nah.. it's starts off on a false premise..
Here's the arguement..
People are illogical.
All people are people.
Therefore, all people are illogical.

Why are humans so bad at being logical?
Why don't you answer that Mister Logical?! Huh?! Huh?! Why not?!

Why don't you answer that Mister Logical?! Huh?! Huh?! Why not?!

I mostly made this thread as a rhetorical question in response to frustration with cetain individual posters. Perhaps I will try and answer it tomorrow, when I'm rested and my neurons are working properly. If this thread is still up.

Sorry my mistake. Here's an improved version:

If people are mammals, they are not logical
People are mammals,
Therefore People are not logical.

This one may even be sound, never though NS General would be a good place to practice 1st year logic.

Oh and to seriously respond to the OP, I agree with Kyronea; emotions and all that Jazz; altough its only reasonable up to a point. Nice Star Trek reference btw; how can I help but agree with you :D .

I liked the cookie one better... :)

I think, therefore I am...on a government watch list. :p

Why are humans so bad at being logical? Thats all I have to say.
To answer this, consider the question 'What would humans gain from being logical?'
Now obviously, they would miss out on a lot of pain, misery and suffering. However, the majority of people who are in pain, misery and suffering can't actually do anything about it, short of killing themselves. That's clearly against any living thing's natural desire to survive, so logically they continue to suffer. It's their choice.

Those who can do something about it will reason that whether or not they do anything about it, things will probably sort themselves out somehow anyway - natural optimism. Optimism removes the need for logical thought about a problem.

The answer to the question is probably something along the lines of 'because we don't need to be good at it'.

Maybe because the kind of logic you are talking about it not a part of what we naturaley learn, it is a taught subject and asking why it does not come naturaly to us is akin to asking why does acting not come naturaly to us, or why don't we all have the same level of knowldege on science. Some people choose to study it and so become better at it than people who have not studied it.

Now that sounds logical to me.

Sorry my mistake. Here's an improved version:

If people are mammals, they are not logical
People are mammals,
Therefore People are not logical.

This one may even be sound, never though NS General would be a good place to practice 1st year logic.


Whether or not it's sound, I dont even want to know....;)
But yes it is certainly valid....my lecturer wrote the book on introductory formal logic.:D

Whether or not it's sound, I dont even want to know....;)
But yes it is certainly valid....my lecturer wrote the book on introductory formal logic.:D

Really? o.0

Mine did too, Greg Restall: Logic, an introduction. Am I right?

^_^

I liked the cookie one better...

:p logic would be so much more interesting if all the forms included a cookie somewhere in them

Really? o.0

Mine did too, Greg Restall: Logic, an introduction. Am I right?

^_^
Right about mine or yours? I would never presume to tell you who your logic lecturer is....:D

Mine was (and I assume he still is) Rod Girle - he's a Monty Python fan, Scottish and looks like Sean Connery's lost brother...:D

The book is (by the way) called 'Introduction to logic' rather than 'logic, an introduction'. Such creativity these logicians have!:p :D :p

... he's a Monty Python fan, Scottish and looks like Sean Connery's lost brother...:D

Well mine looks like a fat balding Sean Connery, and he tells bad jokes (but then what lecturer doesn't), close enough :rolleyes: .

Well mine looks like a fat balding Sean Connery, and he tells bad jokes (but then what lecturer doesn't), close enough :rolleyes: .
I'm not sure I want to comment on my (x-)lecturer's waistline and baldness on the internet (at least not when I've specifically named him), nor shall I mention his hearing aid...

:D Frankly I'm above making personal comments about peoples' physical appearance. Further the sun shines from my rear end and my shit doesnt stink either!:D

:D Frankly I'm above making personal comments about peoples' physical appearance. Further the sun shines from my rear end and my shit doesnt stink either!:D

;)

Yeah the last thing I'd want to find after inputing my name into google is an in depth physical description. Although you could do worse than be likened to Sean Connery. He's so dreamy ...

OK. That was just wrong ... What I meant to say is that Sean Connery drove me around France in a bus.

Hmm, that came out wrong too. Cookies are looking pretty good about now

Why are humans so bad at being logical? Thats all I have to say.
Because we are not supposed to be, all the time.

We're not vulcans, and you're just going to have to accept that.

Humans are illogical because they have emotions. If they were to get rid of emotions, they would become more logical instantly, and the world would be a far better place.

But for some reason, people like the false sense of security and being wanted that emotions give them. Fools. :p

/goes back to plotting the downfall and destruction of the multiverse/

Using the word 'therefore' does not (at least to my social standard) make you respectible.

Logic is to vauge a term for me to utilize entierly. Illogical action could be described as said action which is outside of the social norm of function.
An example could be an individual rushing back into a fire to save a pet or object of sentimental value of which would be worthless to another. One could say that 'illogical' actions have emotional bearings leading one to defy common sense, a kind of irevocable chemical reaction perhaps? This mentioning of chemical brain functions provides me with a segway to another kind of the aforementioned reactants, Love. Love in essence is 'illogical' in most social bearings. It defies all 'logical' resoning, affects the physical constitution and can lead to the propogation of genes. Or is this 'logic' aganst resoning something else, something higher. The soul.

Why are humans so bad at being logical?

Compared to what or whom?

Compared to what or whom?

The current social convention of the whole, most likely.

the vast majority of everything that everyone believes is done without any logical basis.

no matter how logical you think you are

we make an opinion THEN search for reasons why we are right. some people use emotional arguments, some dominance, some try logic.

while logic can be useful, its seldom the basis for anything we do or think.

I think it's because being illogical is a more important survival trait than being logical. If we are logical we have to face the reality of our behavior, of cause and effect (thus not being able to plausibly deny responsibility for things we do). It's critical in our minds that we be able to lambast ourselves when we need to motivate ourselves even if it defies logic, and that we be able to prop ourselves up confidently even if it defies logic.

If we became completely logical we couldn't blame big business every time we drop a blow dryer in the bathtub or insert a coke rectally or any of the other million things we have to be warned not to do so companies don't get sued. If we became completely logical we'd have to admit that we wouldn't leave the majority of politicians alone with our children BUT also they aren't the devil incarnate. We'd have to stop dealing in hyperbole and manufactured drama. We'd have to stop defending the vast majority of national spokesmen and leaders. In short, the entire basis for our society would crumble.

Without a complete absense of logic, most of us wouldn't be able to excuse our behavior in high school and that was only four years long.

In nature having a quick highly emotional reaction can save your ass. Even if there's no real danger it's better to react and then realize that you were wrong than not to react and get eaten.

Logic has its uses, though, especially for predators following pray or gatherers trying out new plants and stuff, but it requires time and patience. It' lacks the immediate reward that emotion provides.

In nature having a quick highly emotional reaction can save your ass. Even if there's no real danger it's better to react and then realize that you were wrong than not to react and get eaten.

Logic has its uses, though, especially for predators following pray or gatherers trying out new plants and stuff, but it requires time and patience. It' lacks the immediate reward that emotion provides.

The Brain stem versus the frontal lobe.

Why are humans so bad at being logical? Thats all I have to say.
Logic is a skill just like many other things. Unfortunately, not many parents know enough about it yet to teach it to their children. What we really need is some very strict religion which insists that you have to be logical to get into heaven, but then that would itself be illogical so the entire thing is a conundrum! ;)

Did anyone else think of the Leonard Nimoy song 'Highly Illogical' when they saw this thread? :D Or was it just me? Probably just me...


Bloody brilliant song though :D

The current social convention of the whole, most likely.

Ah, so humans as a whole are so bad at being logical compared to humans as a whole.

Less than helpful.

Did anyone else think of the Leonard Nimoy song 'Highly Illogical' when they saw this thread? :D Or was it just me? Probably just me...

Bloody brilliant song though :D
Haven't heard the song, but I did think of Spock! :D

To be honest, I think that we arent logical because us girls are always trying to figure out guys, and guys are trying to figure out us girls therefore, we are too caught up in eachother to be logical...or smart.

Did anyone else think of the Leonard Nimoy song 'Highly Illogical' when they saw this thread? :D Or was it just me? Probably just me...


Bloody brilliant song though :D
hmmmmm

i never heard of leonard nimoy having any song and im so old that i watched the original series in its first run

so does this make you very old or super geeky?

and can logic guide us to the answer?

I am too busy being a wife, a mom, a teacher, a friend, a financial advisor, a lobbyist, and a web page promoter.........you want me to think too?!

Humans are illogical because they have emotions. If they were to get rid of emotions, they would become more logical instantly, and the world would be a far better place.

But for some reason, people like the false sense of security and being wanted that emotions give them. Fools. :p

/goes back to plotting the downfall and destruction of the multiverse/
Emotions are only part of the problem. And by learning to truly control them, you can keep them (with two exceptions; guilt and shame. if you are truly rational, the thought patterns triggering them are not present) without letting them affect your rationality.

Another large part of the problem is that of the irrational thought patterns people are constantly brainwashed into throughout all of their lives by other people, and their societies at large. Useless things like morality, honor (as known in it's current form, atleast), letting others decide your value (you have none, apart from what you assign to yourself. and that "value" is in the end meaningless), and lots of cultural stuff. (human societies depend on the presence of their particular brands of stupidity. while they last, they actively preserve, refine and spread them)

And then, most people are by nature more-or-less mindless sheep, willing to sacrifice just about anything to be popular with whatever groups they feel they "belong" to. There are exceptions, but they are relatively few. (many of them can be found along people who proportionally have "extreme systematizing" brains, such as people with Asperger's Syndrome)

Why are humans so bad at being logical? Thats all I have to say.

I don't know if someone has already pointed this out, but if you support people acting more logically, you might want to vote for the Technocrats in the NS General election. We are the party of logic.

I don't know if someone has already pointed this out, but if you support people acting more logically, you might want to vote for the Technocrats in the NS General election. We are the party of logic.

Considering your party couldn't be arsed to use the very low-end technology called a spellchecker, I'm going have to doubt the veracity of your other claims. I giggled when I read your manifesto so thanks for that.

From far beyond the galaxies I've journeyed to this place
To study the behavior patterns of the human race
And I find them highly illogical

Girl meets boy they fall in love
She says he's everything she's dreamed of
But when they get married before he's aware
She changes his habits the way he combs his hair
She changes him to someone he's never been
And then complains he's not like other men
Now really I find this most illogical

Take the case of your automobiles
Greatest invention since man discovered wheels
Hydromatic overdrive four-on-the-floor
Pushbutton windows pushbutton doors
Double barreled carborators rush you anyplace
But you never can find a parking space
Highly illogical

Take the case of modern man
He works all his life gives it all he can
Saves all his money works overtime
Pinches every penny banks every dime
All he can think about is money but you know
That he can't take it with him where he's going to go
Now I find that fascinatingly illogical

Now is the time to journey home to tell of what I've learned
My people I believe have every right to be concerned
For in spite of computers and advanced psychology
Behavior patterns are still a mystery
I predict the future of this earthly human race
Is that having made a mess of Earth They'll move to outer space
Well there goes the neighborhood
Totally, completely, absolutely, irrevocably, highly illogical

In our fast paced society of one-half night stands, girls with fifteen sex partners, men with sixteen, and elections between incompitent Republican and incompetent Democrat, logic is almost shunned.

The problem with logic is it isn't logical. All logic starts with an assumption. Everything is then built on that assumption. The problem is, where did that assumption come from? Well it is what I believe to be true. ie it is not logical. What assumption do you use? What you believe to be true. ie. it is not logical And do you believe the same assumption? Of course not. No two people start with the same assumption. So as we logically build from our own belief, the logic goes it all sorts of directions.

Why are humans so bad at being logical?

Impossible to quantify. There is no control or experimental group. The only way I can logically answer your question is thus:

As opposed to what? Lions?

The problem with logic is it isn't logical. All logic starts with an assumption. Everything is then built on that assumption. The problem is, where did that assumption come from? Well it is what I believe to be true. ie it is not logical. What assumption do you use? What you believe to be true. ie. it is not logical And do you believe the same assumption? Of course not. No two people start with the same assumption. So as we logically build from our own belief, the logic goes it all sorts of directions.

This is exactly the answer I would expect from you. It shows a profound misunderstanding of what logic is.

Flawed assumptions have nothing to do with whether logic is sound. People can make a flawed initial assumption and as long as they list that as an assumption, their logic can be weighed outside of whether on agrees with the conclusion. Truth and logic are not the same. They aren't even necessarily related.

Why are humans so bad at being logical? Thats all I have to say.

As compared to what?

I guess I mean, sensibleness. Also though I mean intellectual cleanliness, it seems people just throw away cause and effect, and even corolation, when they want to believe something.

Doesn't it depend upon the topic?

How far would a car mechanic get without logic? Or a doctor? Or so many other professions? Farmer? Sheep herder?

They all need to recognize and utilise cause and effect in their daily vocations. So perhaps we all get a little less logical when the subject is more abstract and has less connection with how we live every day...

Too much time on our hands I would say.:p

Logic isn't used because in many situation the use of logic is illogical. Let's say you are getting a snack and your 2 choices are Cheetoes and Ruffles, what is the logical choice? Both are similarly nutritious, both cost about the same, both will fill you up the same amount. I am not denying that if somebody tried they could find a logical solution but that would take longer than most people want to do making a decision. So instead, they do not follow logic and make an intuition/emotion based decision. These decisions take less time and are useful whenever a quick decision must be made or a pointless decision must be made.

Well, lets add in the fact that logic is a skill that is improved upon with practice and a skill that isn't necessarily useful in daily living if one uses their own biases to live from day to day. Most people don't feel a need to use logic because in many situations it is not the most efficient way to make some decisions and they use it on all decisions because it is easier due to underdeveloped logic skills and because it seems like the rational thing to do because of its ease. Now, this lack of use of logic eventually catches up to people but they don't learn because of the lack of logical skills and lack of desire to use them.

Emotion and religion. ;)

Why are humans so bad at being logical?

Because we weigh the same as a duck.

Doesn't it depend upon the topic?

How far would a car mechanic get without logic? Or a doctor? Or so many other professions? Farmer? Sheep herder?

They all need to recognize and utilise cause and effect in their daily vocations.

Cause and effect are not part of logic.

Even in propositional logic P -> Q is to be read not as a temporal effect, but an asynchronous one.

Logic isn't used because in many situation the use of logic is illogical. Let's say you are getting a snack and your 2 choices are Cheetoes and Ruffles, what is the logical choice? Both are similarly nutritious, both cost about the same, both will fill you up the same amount.


Is this an allusion to Buridan's Ass? The animal which is perfectly rational and so starves to death when placed equidistant between two identical meals - it is unable to decide in favour of one or the other and so slowly wastes away.

Considering your party couldn't be arsed to use the very low-end technology called a spellchecker, I'm going have to doubt the veracity of your other claims. I giggled when I read your manifesto so thanks for that.

Where are said spelling errors? If you mean in the ads, I'm vaguely aware, we've got some overenthusiastic promoters. If you mean on the manifesto...where?

Because we weigh the same as a duck.

WINNER! [/thread]

Logic is the begining of wisdom

Thats why. We are wise in our own ways. That wisdom has a logic which we may not be fully aware of but it is a logic. For example there is an emotional logic to our actions, we just dont fully understand it.

I guess I mean, sensibleness. Also though I mean intellectual cleanliness, it seems people just throw away cause and effect, and even corolation, when they want to believe something.

Obviously you realized this soon after registering at this forum, eh?

:D

Truth and logic are not the same. They aren't even necessarily related.
Agreed.

Even Aristotle saw the flaws in logic. He also said that in the end all human decisions are made on emotion.

Is this an allusion to Buridan's Ass? The animal which is perfectly rational and so starves to death when placed equidistant between two identical meals - it is unable to decide in favour of one or the other and so slowly wastes away.
Not really, I don't know about Buridan's ass. I just have read that people with brain damage to their emotions have extreme difficulty making the simplest of decisions. They will spend long periods of time contemplating many different factors just to figure out when they want their doctor's appointment to be scheduled and the like. However, I suppose Buridan's Ass would work in what I am thinking of.

WINNER! [/thread]

Thank you! Other than that caged-death match, I've never won anything before!

:D

Where are said spelling errors? If you mean in the ads, I'm vaguely aware, we've got some overenthusiastic promoters. If you mean on the manifesto...where?

Democracy is useful only as a means of gaguing what would make people happy, not a be-all-end-all absolute.

Interesting that your techno party even after being notified of the fact that there are errors still wouldn't employ such a simple tool. I find all claims made by your party to be questionable on that basis alone. You claim to have a meticulous understanding of what people need so much so that you would override what they want, but you don't use the simplest tools at your disposal to do a better job at campaigning. Voting for you would illogical. All evidence suggests your party writes checks they never intend to honor or simply can't.

Agreed.

Even Aristotle saw the flaws in logic. He also said that in the end all human decisions are made on emotion.

You don't have access to truth, so it doesn't matter. Only illogical people make the claim that truth is reasonably available to us.

You don't have access to truth, so it doesn't matter. Only illogical people make the claim that truth is reasonably available to us.
Agreed.

But we strive for a concensus of what we believe to be truth. In order to do that we start with assumptions that we agree upon, then build from those assumptions. Conflict comes when we don't know or understand the basic assumptions made by another person, group or culture. When we prejudiciously assume that others assume like thee, there will always be conflict. The basis of most of the conflicts in life and in the world.

Humans are always logical...

IF you understand how each individual values the various outcomes.
Even self destructive "illogical" behaviour will be logical if the individual places a higher value on short term gratification than long term results.
They logically choose what they value most.

The real question is, why do humans value such stupid things?

Interesting that your techno party even after being notified of the fact that there are errors still wouldn't employ such a simple tool. I find all claims made by your party to be questionable on that basis alone. You claim to have a meticulous understanding of what people need so much so that you would override what they want, but you don't use the simplest tools at your disposal to do a better job at campaigning. Voting for you would illogical. All evidence suggests your party writes checks they never intend to honor or simply can't.

Hmm...yeah, the manifesto was kind of rushed this time around, due to a severe lack of time on my part. I've noticed other symptoms of that already. Ah well, there's always next time.