NationStates Jolt Archive

I found this on the great blog Making Light (http://www.nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/) today. All I can say is, please read it all before rendering an opinion...

> ——- Original Message ——-
> From: rufff lady
> To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 9:43 PM
> Subject: What’s All The Fuss?
>
>
> Well said!
>
>

Opinions on that may differ.

>
>
> The lady that wrote this letter is Pam Foster of
> Pamela Foster and Associates in Atlanta. She’s
> been in business since 1980 doing interior
> design and home planning. She recently wrote
> a letter to a family member serving in Iraq.
> Read it!
>
>
>

Actually, no. It was written by Doug Patton, a wingnut. “Doug has served as a speechwriter and policy advisor to federal, state and local candidates and elected officials. He founded the Nebraska chapter of the Christian Coalition in 1995 and served as its first executive director for nearly 3 years. He was a candidate himself for the Nebraska Legislature in 2000.”

Wingnuts, and those who pass on wingnut letters to everyone in their addressbooks, don’t seem to care much about identifying their sources. Or telling the truth in general.

>
>
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> WHAT’S ALL THE FUSS?
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>
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> “Are we fighting a war on terror or aren’t we?
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>
>

We aren’t. We’re doing a bunch of nonsense that Bush was using to get himself re-elected. He’s hoping you won’t notice that it’s nonsense, and that you’ll continue to help him and his rich, draft-dodging friends get richer.

>
>
>
> Was it or was it not started by Islamic people
> who brought it to our shores on September 11,
> 2001?
>
>

Specifically, a small group of mostly-Saudis. So, you think it’s great to go to war against anyone in the world who happens to be Islamic because of that? There are lots of Islamic folks in Indonesia. Why not invade Indonesia?

There are some in Argentina too. Want to invade Argentina?

>
>
>
>
> Were people from all over the world, mostly
> Americans, not brutally murdered that day, in
> downtown Manhattan, across the Potomac
> from our nation’s capitol and in a field in
> Pennsylvania?
>
>
>
>

Sure.

Did you notice that the people most directly affected by the 9/11 attacks — New Yorkers — voted against Bush in the following election?

>
>
> Did nearly three thousand men, women and
> children die a horrible, burning or crushing
> death that day, or didn’t they?
>
>
>

Sure. No one’s questioning it. What is being questioned is whether what Bush pulled afterward helped or hindered in making sure it doesn’t happen again. It’s pretty plain that it hindered, that we’re less safe today than we were five years ago, and less free too, but don’t let me get in the way of your rant.

>
>
>
> And I’m supposed to care that a copy of the
> Koran was “desecrated” when an overworked
> American soldier kicked it or got it wet?
>
>
>

By “got it wet” you mean “pissed on it,” right? Yeah, you’re supposed to care.

>
>
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> Well, I don’t. I don’t care at all.
>
>
>

Know something, Doug? You’re wrong.

>
>
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> I’ll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns
> himself in and repents for incinerating all those
> innocent people on 9/11.
>
>

And kicking a Koran is supposed to help … how? Tell you what: if Bush would stop shoveling money to his pals at Halliburton and instead started to, you know, look for Osama bin Laden, then I might care. But if Bush doesn’t care enough to even try to find bin Laden, what’s your beef?

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>
>
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> I’ll care about the Koran when the fanatics in
> the Middle East start caring about the Holy
> Bible, the mere possession of which is a crime
> in Saudi Arabia.
>
>
>

Saudi Arabia, you’ll notice, is our friend. They’re all good friends of the Bush family too.

>
>
>
> I’ll care when Abu Musab al-Zarqawi tells the
> world he is sorry for hacking off Nick Berg’s
> head while Berg screamed through his
> gurgling,
>
>
>
> slashed throat.
>
>
>

Sure. When are you planning to tell the world you’re sorry for all the “collateral damage” (that means dead women and children and old men and other non-combatants — folks who never heard of Abu al-Zarqawi — who’ve been blown up or burned to death or shot) in Mr. Bush’s war?

>
>
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> I’ll care when the cowardly so-called
> “insurgents” in Iraq come out and fight like
> men instead of disrespecting their own religion
> by hiding in mosques.
>
>

You know who the insurgents are? They’re guys who are fighting for their homes. This is a war we started. Cowardly? They’re taking on the largest, richest army in the world, one that crossed two oceans to attack them. You know what Iraq didn’t do? They didn’t attack us. Are you wondering why some of them are shooting back? If a foreign country invaded us, you’d do the same. Unless you’re a coward, that is. Which I rather suspect you are, Doug. Isn’t it true that if we were invaded by a foreign power that you’d hide snivveling in your basement … when you weren’t busy informing your new masters of the resistance by your more patriotic neighbors?

Hey, Doug. Let me test your historical knowledge. Fill in the blanks:
During the American Revolution, American patriots hid arms and ammunition in ch__ches.
Sometimes the Sons of Liberty met in ch__ches.
The signal that told Paul Revere to ride was hung in Old North Ch__ch.

Let’s talk about cowardly insurgents, shall we? That’s what the British called the American colonists who fired from behind trees and rocks instead of standing up in nice straight lines on the other side of an open field to get shot at.

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>
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> I’ll care when the mindless zealots who blow
> themselves up in search of nirvana care about
> the innocent children within range of their
> suicide
>
>
>
> bombs.
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>

“Nirvana” is Buddhist, not Muslim. Even your bigotry is ignorant.

>
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> I’ll care when the American media stops
> pretending that their First Amendment liberties
> are somehow derived from international law
> instead of the United States Constitution’s Bill
> of Rights.
>
>
>

What in the world are you talking about? Of course the First Amendment rights come from the Constitution. This is just flat insane. If you’re trying to set up a strawman at least use straw.

But since you brought the question up, shall we start talking about how the Bush administration treats people as traitors for defending their constitutional rights? Shall we talk about how Bush treats the Bill of Rights like toilet paper?

>
>
>
> In the meantime, when I hear a story about a
> brave marine roughing up an Iraqi terrorist to
> obtain information, know this: I don’t care.
>
>
>

Yes, torture is what it’s all about. You like it when Marines (and others) fail to follow their own regulations and field manuals. You’re happy when the US violates international law — law that was created to protect those very same Marines. And you don’t care that “roughing up” a “terrorist” doesn’t produce useful information. A lot you don’t care about, tough guy.

>
>
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> When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked
> Iraqi prisoners who have been humiliated in
> what amounts to a college hazing incident, rest
> assured that I don’t care.
>
>
>

Rest assured that you will burn in Hell for that, Doug. Violating the Geneva Conventions, which have had the force of law for over a century, that’s not good. Rumsfeld should have been fired over that. Bush should have been impeached over that. There should have been courts-maritals up and down the chain of command over that. That they didn’t happen is a national shame. A scandal. There have been war crimes trials for less, Doug, and the guilty bastards have gone to jail for a long, long time.

Are you trying to tell me that you wouldn’t care if I and a few friends snatched your wife and your kids off the street and “hazed” them a little? Or a lot? Or until they died?

How long do you personally think you’d last before I got you to confess to being a member of al Qaeda?

>
>
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> When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the
> head when he is told not to move because he
> might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the
> bank that I don’t care.
>
>
>

It would be useful to tell them not to move in Arabic, wouldn’t it? And it would only be fair to wait for them to move before you shot them in the head.

>
>
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> When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a
> Koran and a prayer mat, and fed “special” food
> that is paid for by my tax dollars, is
>
>

And who might be an Afghan dirt-farmer who was turned in for the reward money by his neighbor over an old grudge about a sheep, or a taxi driver who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, or the brother-in-law of someone whose name sounds similar to someone on some “terrorist watch list,” whose claims not to be al Qaeda or Taliban are perfectly true.

Speaking of tax dollars, Doug, how many? How much are you willing to pay? What domestic programs are you willing to cancel? How much national debt are you willing to shoulder? Let’s save a few bucks and shut down the torture cells. They haven’t produced anything yet, aside from blackening America’s reputation and destroying our moral position.

>
> complaining that his holy book is being
> “mishandled,” you can absolutely believe in
> your heart of hearts that I don’t care.
>
>
>

Oh, I believe it, Doug. I believe you’re bigoted, I believe you’re a fool, I believe you’re a traitor. But rest assured I really do believe you don’t care.

>
>
>
> And oh, by the way, I’ve noticed that
> sometimes it’s spelled “Koran” and other times
> “Quran.” Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and — you
> guessed it, I could not have said this any
> better myself!
>
>

That’s because the word is transliterated from Arabic. Arabic, you may notice, doesn’t use the Latin alphabet. Illiterate, in addition to being bigoted. What a charming person you are, Doug.

Tell me — if you don’t care about that whole litany of things, why do you expect anyone in the world to care what happens to America and Americans?

>
>
>
>
> If you agree with this view point, pass this on
> to all your e-mail friends. Sooner or later, it’ll
> get to the people responsible for this
>
>

Agree with this point of view? You should be aware that smoking that stuff is illegal.

>
> ridiculous behavior! If you don’t agree, then by
> all means hit the delete button.
>
>
>

No, Doug. I won’t hit the “delete” button. This poison should be revealed for what it is. I’ll let the person who forwarded this to me know what I think of your hateful slime, too.

>
>
>
> Should you choose the latter, then please don’t
> complain when more atrocities committed by
> radical Muslims happen here in our great
> country,like are happening in France now.
>
>
>

And don’t you complain to me when those attrocities are commmitted and no one in the rest of the world cares.

What does what Bush is doing — what does torturing prisoners — what does starting a war against people who never attacked us — have to do with preventing atrocities by radical Muslims, or by anyone else? Doug, you’re not only a bigot, you’re not only ignorant, you’re also bone-deep stupid.

Those riots in France — strike me as being not much different from, and based on the same causes as, the “Ghetto Riots” in our own “Long Hot Summer” of 1967. Do you think, Doug, that the way to address those would have been to invade a random African country and drop a couple of hundred tons of bombs on it? Like I said, you’re stupid….

>
>
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> Can I get an AMEN!!!!
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>

No.

You’re not a real American, and you definitely aren’t a Christian. Christ told us to love our enemies and to do good to those who hate us. I swore to uphold the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic, and I wore my country’s uniform and put my body on the line to defend it for damn-near two decades. My brother was assigned to the Pentagon on 9/11. Where were you?

I know a domestic enemy when I see one, Doug. I’ll continue to defend the Constitution of the United States against you, and against your kind, as long as I Iive.

In parts, inflammatory, proud, logical, and self-flagellating.

In parts, inflammatory, proud, logical, and self-flagellating.

Like the original email isn't?

Like the original email isn't?
Yes it was a good refutation of an idiot. But I was annoyed by the implication that the insurgents of Iraq are fighting for freedom, as if Islamist Dictatorship is freedom. :rolleyes:

Nice. I'm copying this to add to my personal manifesto.

But I don't understand what these idiots think they're accomplishing with these email chain letters. The letter above is nothing but a ranting propaganda performance. It isn't even trying to persuade others. No one who disagrees with it is going to forward it on, so eventually, it will only be read by people who already think this way -- talking to themselves, as usual. The most feedback they'll get is response like this. Are they masochists? Do they like being told off?

Yes it was a good refutation of an idiot. But I was annoyed by the implication that the insurgents of Iraq are fighting for freedom, as if Islamist Dictatorship is freedom. :rolleyes:

I think you need to go back and read it more thoroughly. He said they were "fighting for their homes" the difference is huge.

Yes it was a good refutation of an idiot. But I was annoyed by the implication that the insurgents of Iraq are fighting for freedom, as if Islamist Dictatorship is freedom. :rolleyes:
Well, yes, that's true, but suppose there was no such thing as a movement for Islamist Dictatorship. I think there would still be an insurgency, just as the person responding to the chain letter says.

I think you need to go back and read it more thoroughly. He said they were "fighting for their homes" the difference is huge.
Iraq is already independent, again. The more the insurgents (most of whom are not from Iraq) fight, the longer the Americans will stay.

Iraq is already independent, again. The more the insurgents (most of whom are not from Iraq) fight, the longer the Americans will stay.

Why won't you jest re-read it!?!?

If a foreign country invaded us, you’d do the same...

they arent independant of the united states. we have already said we might be there for another decade, there is no reason for them to believe we are on our way out any time soon.

Iraq is already independent, again. The more the insurgents (most of whom are not from Iraq) fight, the longer the Americans will stay.
Well, I guess, technically the foreign fighters are not insurgents. As non-Iraqis, they are not under the control of the occupiers and are not fighting to break that control. They are just trying to exploit an insurgency situation to promote their own agenda. This is why all the experts were so hesitant to call it an insurgency and why they always give these elaborate explanations of who they think planted which IEDs. If there were no foreign fighters coming in, I think there would still be an insurgency, though a smaller one -- or a bigger one if the new government were seen as a puppet with the US pulling the strings (in which case it would be an insurgency against the new government, not us).

BTW, I'm sure the foreign fighters would claim that they are oppressed by occupation of Iraq on account of Muslim Brotherhood(tm), but that's propagandistic crap, too.

If a foreign country invaded us, you’d do the same...
Not comparable. I don't live in a dictatorship. I would fight against invaders because I like the system of government that is in place.

And what of the Iraqis who liked Hussein? You mean the comfortable Sunni minority (under 30% of the population) who received preferential treatment. I suppose they are fighting in their own self-interest. They're still wrong.

Another difference between my government and Hussein's is that mine does not engage in massive human rights abuses.

they arent independant of the united states. we have already said we might be there for another decade, there is no reason for them to believe we are on our way out any time soon.
They're occupied by US troops (by necessity), but independence was declared almost two years ago and the people have elected their own government.

Another difference between my government and Hussein's is that mine does not engage in massive human rights abuses.

Yeah, who really cares about the occational prison torture and years-long containment of 'prisoners of war' without trial, let alone any formal accusation?

They're occupied by US troops (by necessity), but independence was declared almost two years ago and the people have elected their own government.
and you think that SAYING they are independant is the same as BEING independant?

if they had their own independant country they would be able to tell the US to remove their troops. if they were truly independant THEY would be running the fight against insurgents and terrorists.

Not comparable. I don't live in a dictatorship. I would fight against invaders because I like the system of government that is in place.

And what of the Iraqis who liked Hussein? You mean the comfortable Sunni minority (under 30% of the population) who received preferential treatment. I suppose they are fighting in their own self-interest. They're still wrong.

Another difference between my government and Hussein's is that mine does not engage in massive human rights abuses.


They're occupied by US troops (by necessity), but independence was declared almost two years ago and the people have elected their own government.
But what if you did not believe that the invading country was coming to liberate you, no matter what they said? What if you believed they just wanted to oppress you, too, or steal all your resources, open your borders to bandits, terrorists, and other enemies, and break your population so that you couldn't rebuild your own economy, let alone army, any time soon? And what if you honestly believed that this so-called freely elected independent government was either a puppet of the occupiers, or a hostage to their military presence which they will keep in place just as long as it takes to finish plundering your nation? What if you believed that you and your country were nothing but a stepping stone in their plan for regional hegemony, and that they cared nothing for your freedom or democracy? How would you respond to them, then?

Yeah, who really cares about the occational prison torture and years-long containment of 'prisoners of war' without trial, let alone any formal accusation?
I'd love to hear about the time the Irish Government did that. (Check my location.)

and you think that SAYING they are independant is the same as BEING independant?
No, but I have no reason to believe that they are not independent.

if they had their own independant country they would be able to tell the US to remove their troops. if they were truly independant THEY would be running the fight against insurgents and terrorists.
They are able to tell the US to get out. They just choose not too because their army is not yet good enough to lead the fight.

But what if you did not believe that the invading country was coming to liberate you, no matter what they said?
I am already pretty liberated as it is. No invasion needed.

What if you believed they just wanted to oppress you, too, or steal all your resources,
This has not been done in Iraq.

open your borders to bandits, terrorists, and other enemies,
This has happened in Iraq, but anyone fighting against the US (or, more often, Iraqi civilians) is more on the side of the bandits, terrorists, etc. than anything else.

and break your population so that you couldn't rebuild your own economy, let alone army, any time soon?
This has not been done in Iraq.

And what if you honestly believed that this so-called freely elected independent government was either a puppet of the occupiers,
Since many of the parties and politicians in government (notably Jalal Talabani) got into power despite not being the candidates preferred by the US, I would have to be wilfully ignorant to believe this.

or a hostage to their military presence which they will keep in place just as long as it takes to finish plundering your nation?
Has not happened in Iraq. You know that Iraq's oil belongs to the Iraqi people, right? That's a constitutional law.

What if you believed that you and your country were nothing but a stepping stone in their plan for regional hegemony, and that they cared nothing for your freedom or democracy? How would you respond to them, then?
If they were imperialist I would fight them.

Iraq is already independent, again. The more the insurgents (most of whom are not from Iraq) fight, the longer the Americans will stay.


Actually, no - it's not. Under the terms of the handover process - until such time as the new Constitution is written and ratified by the people the existing government is still a puppet of the occupying force and subject to overrule at Washington's whim.


Oh, and please lay some factual foundation for your assertion that MOST of the insurgents are foreigners to Iraq. Because I think you've misunderstood your Republican talking points memos....

I am already pretty liberated as it is. No invasion needed.


This has not been done in Iraq.


This has happened in Iraq, but anyone fighting against the US (or, more often, Iraqi civilians) is more on the side of the bandits, terrorists, etc. than anything else.


This has not been done in Iraq.


Since many of the parties and politicians in government (notably Jalal Talabani) got into power despite not being the candidates preferred by the US, I would have to be wilfully ignorant to believe this.


Has not happened in Iraq. You know that Iraq's oil belongs to the Iraqi people, right? That's a constitutional law.


If they were imperialist I would fight them.
First of all, we're talking about Iraq, not Ireland. Either you lack imagination or you're trying to dodge the issue. That's a cop-out answer; not worthy of you.

Second, if you pay attention to the news, you should be aware that what I outlined is the view presented by much of the media in the Arab/Muslim world and claimed to be the view espoused by the so-called "Arab street", i.e. popular opinion. Whether or not the majority of Arabs/Muslims actually believe this, it is certainly being spread as propaganda by anti-American groups who successfully use it to recruit fighters. You'll notice I asked "what if you believed these things" not "what if these things were the truth." All things political hinge more on perception than fact -- if the Iraqis believe the US is out to oppress them, that the government they just elected is a puppet, etc, then the US denying it isn't going to change their minds. Likewise, if the rest of the Arab/Muslim world believes Iraq is just the first domino, then nothing we say will change that, as long as we say it while occupying Iraq and making threatening noises at Iran at the same time. In fact, the US's mishandling of this entire venture does nothing to disabuse Iraqis/Arabs/Muslims of such beliefs. It is entirely plausible to interpret US actions in the negative way I outlined.

Finally, your last statement is an agreement that my point is correct. If you believed they were trying to take you over, you'd fight. Just like an Iraqi insurgent.