NationStates Jolt Archive

Atlast an American mainstream paper says what I have been saying all the time.

Ayiram kaigal maraithalum aadhavan maraivathillai (Even a thousand hands, cannot block the sun - such is the truth which cannot be hidden).

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-malinowski16mar16,0,109617.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions
Who's really locked up in Guantanamo?
By Tom Malinowski
TOM MALINOWSKI is Washington advocacy director of Human Rights Watch.

March 16, 2006

BY NOW, just about every American ally in the world has said the United States should close its detention camp at Guantanamo Bay. God forbid, responds President Bush, for the camp holds terrorists caught on the battlefield fighting the U.S. and who would kill again the moment they are released.

Yet it's an open secret that the administration itself is trying to make Guantanamo go away by releasing some prisoners and shipping the rest to other countries. What the administration has resisted with real fury are not the calls to close the camp but those to open it — through the release of information and the scrutiny of courts.

The reason may be that the more that is learned about these prisoners, the more holes appear in the president's narrative of a tough and triumphant fight against Al Qaeda. Instead, when the full story is told, Guantanamo may come to stand as much for incompetence as it does for injustice.

Last week, under court order, the Pentagon released the transcripts of several hundred hearings held to decide whether Guantanamo prisoners were in fact "enemy combatants." Classified evidence was deleted, but what emerges is how insignificant most of these prisoners are. Fewer than half were caught on battlefields in Afghanistan or by U.S. troops. A majority were turned over by Pakistan (often for cash bounties). Few "combatants" are even accused of having fought. Many are held simply because they were living in a house associated with the Taliban or working for a charity linked to the group.

It seems that U.S. forces, inundated by thousands of captives after the Afghan war, didn't have enough experienced interrogators and interpreters to sort out the actual terrorists from Arabs unaffiliated with Al Qaeda. But they were under pressure to get results and unwilling to believe that their Pakistani allies could deceive them. Prisoners who claimed to know nothing were subjected to increasingly brutal treatment until some confessed or accused others.

According to Pentagon documents, Mohammed Al-Qahtani, the alleged 20th 9/11 hijacker, accused 30 fellow prisoners of being Osama bin Laden's bodyguards — after Qahtani was tormented by weeks of sleep deprivation, isolation and sexual humiliation. That the Pentagon finds confessions obtained this way credible is, well, incredible. How many false leads has it chased, and how much lifesaving intelligence has been lost?

What the administration doesn't want to face is that, as the small fish were taken to Cuba, Pakistan arranged escape routes from Afghanistan for more dangerous jihadists — presumably those with cash or connections to Pakistani intelligence services — including several hundred flown out of the city of Kunduz before it fell to U.S. forces. The Pakistani military maintains close links with Al Qaeda-linked militant groups created to wage war in Kashmir and Afghanistan, and the Taliban continues to hold sway over Pakistan's tribal areas on the Afghan border. Bush should devote the resources needed to stabilize Afghanistan and tell Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf to end, finally, the military-Islamist alliance that has made his country the new home base for Al Qaeda and the Taliban.

In the meantime, here's the score: the U.S. got Guantanamo, the Pakistanis got paid and Al Qaeda and the Taliban mostly got away. Michael Scheuer, the former head of the CIA's Bin Laden unit, recently told the National Journal that less than 10% of Guantanamo prisoners are high-value Al Qaeda operatives with any knowledge of terrorism. Of those turned over by Pakistan, he said: "We absolutely got the wrong people."

That doesn't mean the camp's prisoners are all innocent farmers. Even if they weren't fighting the U.S., many went to Afghanistan to help the Taliban build its "pure" Islamic state — precisely the kind of men Al Qaeda tries to recruit as cannon fodder. Some could become killers if released. But does that make them different from hundreds of thousands of other angry young men throughout the Muslim world who believe in the same cause? There is no shortage of potential suicide bombers. Guantanamo does nothing to solve that problem. It probably makes it worse.

Who's really locked up in Guantanamo?

Phillipe, the secret twin brother of Louis.

Wanna know whats locked up in Gitmo? Really bad people who should never see the light of day. Once we get all the info we need out of them, shoot them in the head and call it a day. Next question.

Bush Rummy and cheney should all be locked up in Gitmo in dark isolation danks for as long as all these people were

Quickest way to make a buck in afghanistan is to grab a random arab looking guy and sell him to the coalition as a 'terrorist'.

Wanna know whats locked up in Gitmo? Really bad people who should never see the light of day. Once we get all the info we need out of them, shoot them in the head and call it a day. Next question.

Okay, how about: Who are you planning on occupy- er, 'liberating' next?

Iran and then on to Syria, why?

Wanna know whats locked up in Gitmo? Really bad people who should never see the light of day. Once we get all the info we need out of them, shoot them in the head and call it a day. Next question.
But of course because we all know how reliable the Pakistani intelligence force is...it's not like a large number of them support the Teleban and/or resent their dictator's decision to cozy up to the Bush administration.....

Iran and then on to Syria, why?

Oh, no reason really, just wondering a) how thin you're willing to stretch your military, and b) how long your economy can support this.

See, no real reason. :)

Oh, no reason really, just wondering a) how thin you're willing to stretch your military, and b) how long your economy can support this.

See, no real reason. :)
1) Wont get stretched with a draft 2) Economies grow during wartime

1) Wont get stretched with a draft 2) Economies grow during wartime

1) That won't be popular.
2) Tell that to the current deficit.


But okay, let's say you reinstate the draft, you've got more men - maybe women too, whatever - then what?
Uniforms, weapons, vehicles, training - Increased costs.
Rising local opposition.
Rising international opposition.
Some rather concerned nations taking a long, close look at America, wondering 'who's next, one of us?'
Even more enemies.

Worst of all? Far, far more innocent dead.

Wanna know whats locked up in Gitmo? Really bad people who should never see the light of day. Once we get all the info we need out of them, shoot them in the head and call it a day. Next question.
Ahh, the over simplified solution?

List of Guantánamo Bay detainees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Guantanamo_Bay_detainees)

Your dislike for human rights is duly noted!!

Bush Rummy and cheney should all be locked up in Gitmo in dark isolation danks for as long as all these people were
Here ya go:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/PageMill_Images/Bush_et_al_in_jail.jpg

Ahh, the over simplified solution?

List of Guantánamo Bay detainees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Guantanamo_Bay_detainees)

Your dislike for human rights is duly noted!!
Of get out of it. Clearly these people are dangerous, why else would they be locked up in horrendous conditions and denied contact with the outside world for years on end without so much as a trial?

I mean how 'bout this lot (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4163911.stm)? Clearly a menace to the free world. One of them even wanted to improve water supplies and start a school in Afghanistan for goodness sake....

...he probably was going to teach evolution theory or something equally evil....

Unfortunately these dangerous critters were released back into the wild. So far the death toll from this mistake (releasing these evil dangerous creatures) has been nill and so far as I understand Azmat Begg's perverted plans to improve water and start a school have not yet born fruit, but we must be ever vigilent for who knows when he might fufill his evil ambitions...there is also the slim chance that this is the lull before the storm. Having had one narrow escape from truth, justice and the Bush way he might have upped the anti and even now could be working on plans to open up a hospital....:eek:

Ahh, the over simplified solution?

List of Guantánamo Bay detainees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Guantanamo_Bay_detainees)

Your dislike for human rights is duly noted!!
You cant trust wiki, sorry. And I've stated before I really dont care much for your "human rights."

Iran and then on to Syria, why?
iran would be such a bad idea... three times the population of iraq... relatively popular and reasonably democratically elected government, strong history of popular antiamerican sentiment on the street, no legitmate opposition to take power... it would make iraq look like a cake walk.

better try north korea, sure they might nuke and or gas a few tens of thousands of people, but the military would collapse quickly, the extreme rigidity of the state would work against prepositioning a resistance for after the american conventional victory... and best of all we could pawn the post war reconstruction off on the south koreans.

You cant trust wiki, sorry. And I've stated before I really dont care much for your "human rights."
If you don't like Wiki, then try the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/guantanamo_names.html

And you don't care about human rights? I guess YOU want to be President someday.....you seem to have one of the more preferential qualities.

You cant trust wiki, sorry. And I've stated before I really dont care much for your "human rights."Then should I classify you as "human"? I think not.

Btw, Wikipedia is almost accurate as Britannica

http://news.com.com/Study+Wikipedia+as+accurate+as+Britannica/2100-1038_3-5997332.html

You cant trust wiki, sorry. And I've stated before I really dont care much for your "human rights."
actually i saw an article that said when fact checked on science articles wikipedia was as or more accurate than conventional encyclopedia.

If you don't like Wiki, then try the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/guantanamo_names.html

And you don't care about human rights? I guess YOU want to be President someday.....you seem to have one of the more preferential qualities.
I will be President one day, and I will make a fine one. I'll make sure the country isnt run into the ground by these whiny hippie liberals.

edit: The WA Post is just a liberal think tank

And I've stated before I really dont care much for your "human rights."

Well, I only hope you have as much scorn for your own rights as you do for the rights of others.

You cant trust wiki, sorry. And I've stated before I really dont care much for your "human rights."
And I don't much care for your overweening sense of entitlement. Or for your rather bald imperialist bent.

I will be President one day, and I will make a fine one. I'll make sure the country isnt run into the ground by these whiny hippie liberals.

edit: The WA Post is just a liberal think tank
Are you just a puppet?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10541140&postcount=57

Are you just a puppet?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10541140&postcount=57


HAHAHA! That guy has his own ass-kissing puppet. Genius. I'll have to get one.

i always preferred to have my puppets go at each other... yes i have trolled, flamed and even flamebaited myself in my naughty past... i think i've even race baited and possibly gaybashed myself.

i always preferred to have my puppets go at each other... yes i have trolled, flamed and even flamebaited myself in my naughty past... i think i've even race baited and possibly gaybashed myself.

I once reported myself to moderation.

edit: The WA Post is just a liberal think tank

Liberal think tank?

You mean, it believes in freedoms and actually thinks?

The horror!

Are you just a puppet?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10541140&postcount=57
For the record, I have no affilition with this person. btw how the hell did you have find that thread, thats an old one.

And I don't much care for your overweening sense of entitlement. Or for your rather bald imperialist bent.
what sense of entitlement?

For the record, I have no affilition with this person. btw how the hell did you have find that thread, thats an old one.

Hmmm.....

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10523763#post10523763

I have Mexico now and I would like to keep it, however please transfer it to my other nation "Venezcuba". That would be great thanks.


BUSTED!

Phillipe, the secret twin brother of Louis.

Nay. Gitmo holds Filippo Carducci, kidnapped from Milan.

*waits to see if anybody gets it*

Nay. Gitmo holds Filippo Carducci, kidnapped from Milan.

*waits to see if anybody gets it*

I'm not scared, somebody will get it.

According to Pentagon documents, Mohammed Al-Qahtani, the alleged 20th 9/11 hijacker, accused 30 fellow prisoners of being Osama bin Laden's bodyguards — after Qahtani was tormented by weeks of sleep deprivation, isolation and sexual humiliation.

Yay! Torture works! We get them to talk - and say anything to make it stop! :rolleyes:

Oh, I forgot, the above mentioned tactics are not "torture" per se, so that must make them much more reliable ways of getting correct information.

I'm not scared, somebody will get it.

:p

They sure will.

Hmmm.....

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10523763#post10523763




BUSTED!


Oh, snap!!! :p

Hmmm.....

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10523763#post10523763

BUSTED!

Hehehehe... Brilliance! :D

For the record, I have no affilition with this person. btw how the hell did you have find that thread, thats an old one.

Hmmm.....

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10523763#post10523763

I have Mexico now and I would like to keep it, however please transfer it to my other nation "Venezcuba". That would be great thanks.

BUSTED!

If you didn't think The UN abassadorship's crap pathetic before this...

For the record, I have no affilition with this person. btw how the hell did you have find that thread, thats an old one.
Funny how often this happens; scratch a Bush apologist, uncover someone who wouldnt know the Republic of Reality if they owned as it a puppet....:rolleyes:

You know the type...

Everyone in Gitmo is definately a terrorist, the WMD were moved to Syria, the Bush admin did not inflate the case for war or mislead the people of the US or in any way shape or form influence the intelligence until it's designation as such became a misnomer, nor did the Bush admin use the tragedy of 9/11 to manipulate the US populice for their own gain

Nor is Bush utterly untrustworthy when it comes to making important political appointments - it certainly isnt his fault that while mouthing off about 'preparedness' he was sabotaging the most important emergency response organisation in the country by putting a failed horse club chairman in charge of it (the result becoming manifest when the New Orlean's levies broke)...it's not like he tried to give a position on the Supreme Court to someone based on his personal relationship with her.....

Honestly the reason that stink of corruption follows him and his cronies around is bad luck rather a case of smoke signalling an undeniable fire (damn looney leftist media and their crazy propaganda), and it's really a great idea to make one's decision about going to war based on a supposed conversation with God (why God gives such poor advice we can only guess, he/she/it moves in mysterious ways after all) - there's nothing wrong with that in a secular state.

Clearly a lot of people have it in for Bush, how else could we explain what looks like a litany of corruption, stupidity, arrogance, mismanagment, cronism and outright incompetence. The obvious cause of this apparent pattern of conduct is the looney leftist pinkie media and all those democrap haters....it doesnt take a genius to work out that where there is smoke, extreme heat and flames, there is clearly a leftist conspiracy intent on making it look like there is a firee

There's none so blind as those who see but pretend they dont because they dont want to admit they've backed a loser, for some reason they think this makes them look less silly than facing reality....:confused:

You cant trust wiki,

Never mind the fact that the page has no less then six sources for its list.

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt it seems

Atlast an American mainstream paper says what I have been saying all the time.

Ayiram kaigal maraithalum aadhavan maraivathillai (Even a thousand hands, cannot block the sun - such is the truth which cannot be hidden).

Elvis is locked up there. Lord Lucan as well. And Shergar.

Hmmm.....

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10523763#post10523763

BUSTED!
Good job Gartref.......I did the set and you did the spike!! :)

Elvis is locked up there. Lord Lucan as well. And Shergar.

Shergar for the win!

Shergar for the win!


Hey, don't forget ALF.

Good job Gartref.......I did the set and you did the spike!! :)

He went offline pretty quick - do you think we've seen the last of him?

He went offline pretty quick - do you think we've seen the last of him?

Under that name at least...

Hmmm.....

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10523763#post10523763




BUSTED!

Now thats some good detective work :)

Funny how often this happens; scratch a Bush apologist, uncover someone who wouldnt know the Republic of Reality if they owned as it a puppet....:rolleyes:

You know the type...

Everyone in Gitmo is definately a terrorist, the WMD were moved to Syria, the Bush admin did not inflate the case for war or mislead the people of the US or in any way shape or form influence the intelligence until it's designation as such became a misnomer, nor did the Bush admin use the tragedy of 9/11 to manipulate the US populice for their own gain

Nor is Bush utterly untrustworthy when it comes to making important political appointments - it certainly isnt his fault that while mouthing off about 'preparedness' he was sabotaging the most important emergency response organisation in the country by putting a failed horse club chairman in charge of it (the result becoming manifest when the New Orlean's levies broke)...it's not like he tried to give a position on the Supreme Court to someone based on his personal relationship with her.....

Honestly the reason that stink of corruption follows him and his cronies around is bad luck rather a case of smoke signalling an undeniable fire (damn looney leftist media and their crazy propaganda), and it's really a great idea to make one's decision about going to war based on a supposed conversation with God (why God gives such poor advice we can only guess, he/she/it moves in mysterious ways after all) - there's nothing wrong with that in a secular state.

Clearly a lot of people have it in for Bush, how else could we explain what looks like a litany of corruption, stupidity, arrogance, mismanagment, cronism and outright incompetence. The obvious cause of this apparent pattern of conduct is the looney leftist pinkie media and all those democrap haters....it doesnt take a genius to work out that where there is smoke, extreme heat and flames, there is clearly a leftist conspiracy intent on making it look like there is a firee

There's none so blind as those who see but pretend they dont because they dont want to admit they've backed a loser, for some reason they think this makes them look less silly than facing reality....:confused:

And we have an example of the greatest liberal tool-Truth by Association.
You take a few ought right lies, spread them among some half-truths and try to sell the entire package as gospel. BTW i'm just scanning posts so don't reply to me for an answer

And we have an example of the greatest liberal tool-Truth by Association.
You take a few ought right lies, spread them among some half-truths and try to sell the entire package as gospel. BTW i'm just scanning posts so don't reply to me for an answer

I like that. You condemn a post, but then say that you've only scanned the posts, so please don't expect me to reply!

Troll.

Shergar for the win!

Only if Lucan is in the saddle...

And we have an example of the greatest liberal tool-Truth by Association.
No we dont.

You take a few ought right lies,
No lies in my post, although there was apparently one by the person I was commenting on.

spread them among some half-truths and try to sell the entire package as gospel.
Well done, you have described the Bush Administrations public relations policy...
BTW i'm just scanning posts so don't reply to me for an answer
Given that there are no lies in my post and given that you probably have enough sense to realise I'd call you on this one, it's no surprise you'd want to opt out of any further reply. After all what possible response could you have to 'explictly point to a single lie in my post'...?

Evidently merely scanning does you no favours, it appears that your ability to comprehend when scanning is limited. Try perusing next time. I was presenting an opinion I have on a pattern that is apparent to me. It is erroneous to either describe or interpret such commentary as being gospel or an attempt at passing something off as gospel. It seems reasonable to conclude that your erroneous interpretation might well be a result of having scanned rather than perused...

Evidently merely scanning does you no favours, it appears that your ability to comprehend when scanning is limited. Try perusing next time. I was presenting an opinion I have on a pattern that is apparent to me. It is erroneous to either describe or interpret such commentary as being gospel or an attempt at passing something off as gospel. It seems reasonable to conclude that your erroneous interpretation might well be a result of having scanned rather than perused...

I think you were very rude to reply to Reborn that way. He explicitly told you not to reply because he was just scanning. But no.... you had to reply anyway and deprive him of the last word. I suppose you also ignore it when people yell "shotgun" or "Dibs". You have a lot to learn about playground ettiquette. Oh... and please don't respond, for I am just skimming.

I think you were very rude to reply to Reborn that way. He explicitly told you not to reply because he was just scanning. But no.... you had to reply anyway and deprive him of the last word. I suppose you also ignore it when people yell "shotgun" or "Dibs".
:confused: Huh?....:confused:
Ohhhh, that explains all those funny looks I keep getting! I always figured the 'shotgun' and 'dibs' business was merely the manifestation of an incredibly common form of tourettes syndrome...

You have a lot to learn about playground ettiquette. Oh... and please don't respond, for I am just skimming.
Entrapment, you knew I couldnt resist if you told me not to...:D

Atlast an American mainstream paper says what I have been saying all the time. [/url]

No an American mainstream paper did not. The article that appears in the American mainstream newspaper is the opinion of TOM MALINOWSKI who is the Washington advocacy director of Human Rights Watch.

This is not the opinion of the newspaper but of Malinowski who is not exactly an un-biased person.

well yeah...but i think this is the first time such an opinion is published in a mainstream paper..

This in itself is a quite a good thing from my perspective..:)

Who's really locked up in Guantanamo?


The second coming of Jesus H. Christ. He dared to say he did not agree with the republican version of Christianity.

The second coming of Jesus H. Christ. He dared to say he did not agree with the republican version of Christianity.

Yeah... well Jesus better decide if he's "with us" or "against us".

Hmmm.....

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10523763#post10523763




BUSTED!Good job!!!:D

So...when is anyone actually gonna talk about the article?

It's sorta an important issue.

What's left to say? Everyone except the current American government and their most rabid supporters want the place shut down, but still nothing happens and barely anyone gets released, even amongst those judged innocent.

Will we ever be seeing any of this American 'justice' we've heard so much about over the years?

Well, I for one would not be surprised if these "most dangerous people" (or however Rumsfeld described them) turned out to be quite harmless people, just in the wrong place at the wrong time, with no connections to any terrorist organisations. I have, unfortunently, long ago lost any faith in the current administration to handle this matter in a competent way.

The prison facility at Guantanamo should have been shut down long ago.

I once heard in a comedy show that there's a reason Columbus accidentally found America. It's the Middle East. Europeans didn't want to deal with these people in order to get into China.

I once heard in a comedy show that there's a reason Columbus accidentally found America. It's the Middle East. Europeans didn't want to deal with these people in order to get into China.
That's a pretty big part of the truth. Afterall, medieval Europe and medieval Arabia and extensions were not exactly the best of friends.