NationStates Jolt Archive


Evidence for the "7,000 year-old" universe marble? Expansion it is!

Straughn
17-03-2006, 23:49
This is what can be considered as an *IMPORTANT* new development:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0317/p01s01-stss.html
March 17, 2006 edition

Evidence of universe's first instant

Findings announced Thursday affirm idea of hyperspeed expansion.

By Peter N. Spotts | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

For a fleeting moment, the very fabric of the universe became a kind of hyperspeed spandex - stretching outward at perhaps 100 times the speed of light.
That concept, which describes the first trillionth of a second of the universe's beginnings, has gained wide acceptance among cosmologists. Now, scientists say they have discovered the first comprehensive, subtle signals from that cosmic growth spurt.


The discovery, announced Thursday, does not quite provide "smoking gun" confirmation of the concept, known as inflation. But scientists say they have detected wisps from the muzzle. With a few more years of data-gathering, they say they may be able to find the missing pieces that would clinch the case for a process widely held to have given the universe its initial "bang."

The new results represent a significant shift in efforts to uncover the origins and future of the universe, notes Lyman Page, a Princeton University physicist and member of the team reporting the discovery.

Cosmologists have long struggled to answer basic questions about the universe - its properties and composition, Dr. Page says. Now, scientists are adding an ability to "look back at these billionths of a billionth of a billionth of a billionth of a minute, ask detailed questions about the physics, and be able to answer them."

The new evidence comes from NASA's Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP), a satellite designed to study the final whisper of the Big Bang - the primordial burst of energy widely held to have given birth to the universe. This whisper, actually low-level radiation, is known as the cosmic microwave background. The concept of inflation predicts that this whisper should leave behind signals from that event.

The WMAP team says it detected these signals from trends in relative brightness of bumps and dimples in the microwave background. These variations represent one of two kinds of polarized radiation - and the easiest type to spot - that inflation predicts. Ground-based and balloon-borne experiments have seen bits and pieces of this evidence. But WMAP has put a sky's worth together in one mosaic - an important milestone.

Launched in 2001, the WMAP satellite spent a year gathering data for a baby picture of the universe, which was built from subtle temperature differences in the microwave background. In 2003, the WMAP team decoded the information to yield the most precise estimates yet of the abundance of matter and energy, the universe's age, and its expansion speed. The variations also represent a cosmic blueprint for the large-scale distribution of galaxies astronomers see today.

These latest data come from an additional three years of observations, during which the scientists were working with a signal roughly 100 times weaker than the temperature information they gathered.

The new measurements are so precise that "we're now in position to be able to test specific models of inflation," some of which were first proposed "when I was in grad school. It's really cool to see it come to fruition," says Gary Hinshaw, a researcher at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md., and a member of the team reporting the results.

Inflation holds that the observable universe blossomed from a tiny spot in space so minute that only quantum physics can describe it. Then, in a trillionth of a second, it expanded at almost unimaginable speed. The concept, first proposed nearly 30 years ago, erased difficult mismatches between the "standard" Big Bang theory at the time and the universe astronomers observed as they traced much of its 13.7-billion-year evolution through their telescopes. It also solved conundrums particle physicists faced as they probed the world of the very small.

So far, the team has been able to make some rough estimates of the upper limit on certain conditions during inflation. Dr. Hinshaw says that the inflationary period would have had less energy than 10 quadrillion billion electron-volts - still an enormous number that defies the comprehension of almost anyone but a physicist. By comparison, mankind's most powerful particle accelerator generates energies of only 1 billion electron-volts.

Team members say they hope to keep the experiment - already an "extended" mission in NASA's portfolio - running for several more years. This will allow them to increase the accuracy of their results, and perhaps yield evidence for the second kind of polarized signal cosmologists seek in the microwave background - from gravity waves the expansion would have triggered. Their imprint on the microwave background would provide the smoking gun for cosmic inflation, researchers say.

Meanwhile, the European Space Agency is slated to launch its own version of WMAP, dubbed the Planck mission, next year to give the field a dash of competition. Planck promises a more sensitive set of measurements than WMAP can provide.
Fass
17-03-2006, 23:51
This doesn't support creationism at all, if that's what you were alluding to with your title. Did you not even read your own article? Or are you just trolling?
Straughn
17-03-2006, 23:57
This doesn't support creationism at all, if that's what you were alluding to with your title. Did you not even read your own article? Or are you just trolling?
I know what it says, Fass. Remember that whole <sarcasm> thing? It's been postulated a few times that <sarcasm> doesn't translate well in this medium, so i helped with the quotes. I even left that part as a question.
PsychoticDan
17-03-2006, 23:58
Ican't tell wether your title is sarcastic or wether you're saying it actually does support creationism. If it's sarcastic, *snickers* huh, yeah, take that bible thumpers. If it's not, I think you need to read it a little more closely.
Straughn
18-03-2006, 00:00
To help clarify just a smidge ...:


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/03/0317_060317_big_bang.html
Proof of Big Bang Seen by Space Probe, Scientists Say
Davide Castelvecchi
for National Geographic News

March 17, 2006
New NASA space-probe observations of the oldest light in the cosmos are the most direct evidence yet that the universe expanded extremely quickly immediately after the big bang, physicists say.

Charles Bennett of Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland, led the team overseeing NASA's Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP). He and colleagues announced the new results Thursday in a teleconference.
Previous experiments—including WMAP results released in 2003—had provided strong evidence for the rapid-expansion theory, called inflation, that was first proposed by physicist Alan Guth in 1980.

In the trillion-trillionth of a second after the big bang, the universe expanded from the size of a gumball to something approaching its current size, according to the inflation theory. The universe then settled into a more leisurely pace of expansion over the past 13.7 billion years or so. [/I]

Smoking Gun

WMAP now has the most convincing evidence yet for inflation: a reading of the light released just after the big bang. This cosmic afterglow, known as microwave background, is made of the same type of radiation that carries signals to a TV antenna.

The afterglow is as valuable to a cosmologist as the earliest fossils are to a paleontologist. It is the oldest radiation ever detected, still traveling almost 14 billion years after it was emitted.

The microwaves bathe the entire universe in a perpetual buzz, reaching Earth from all directions. The buzz is virtually uniform, but not quite.

Tiny variations at different points in space allow scientists to draw maps of the early universe, as the WMAP team has done with unprecedented detail.

These cosmic baby pictures show us a time when the universe was a smooth, fiery broth, when stars and galaxies had yet to form under the pull of gravity (photo: another view of the early universe).

Finer Points

The team said cosmologists will now be able to delve into the finer details of how inflation happened.
"I think we now have crossed a threshold," said team member David Spergel of Princeton University in New Jersey. "We can now start to say something quite interesting about the physics of inflation."

Andrei Linde, a cosmologist at California's Stanford University and one of the founders of inflation theory, agrees.
"Theorists sometimes believe we are so smart—[that] nobody can be compared to us," he said in a telephone interview from Moscow. "But these experimentalists [such as the WMAP team], they can sometimes do things that look like science fiction to us."

WMAP has also for the first time mapped the big bang afterglow's polarization. "That's our big step forward," Spergel said.

Polarization is when light—which normally radiates out randomly from its source—encounters something, such as a mirror or fog, that causes it to assume a particular orientation.

The patterns of polarization in the newborn universe—shown as white bars on this map—provide clues that dramatically improve scientists' ability to determine the dates of key events, the team said.

Riddles Remain

The probe's high-definition data also reaffirm some long-standing riddles.

Certain features in the microwave "sky" look to some experts like statistical anomalies, and WMAP's new data make them even more conspicuous.

Some of the anomalies seem to "very oddly line up with the geometry of the solar system," said Glenn Starkman of Case Western Reserve University in Ohio.

For example, some groups of anomalies seem to be pointing in one direction. But this idea runs counter to the accepted principle that the cosmos has no preferred orientation (whereas Earth, for example, is governed by its magnetic field, which gives rise to the directions of the compass).

Joao Magueijo of Imperial College London said, "We expect everything to be more or less the same in every direction."

Still others believe that the statistical anomalies are in the eye of the beholder.

"Are those features telling you something physical and important, or are those features just random? That, I think, remains an open question that will be a subject of debate," Spergel said.
PsychoticDan
18-03-2006, 00:01
I know what it says, Fass. Remember that whole <sarcasm> thing? It's been postulated a few times that <sarcasm> doesn't translate well in this medium, so i helped with the quotes. I even left that part as a question.
Oh, okay. Yeah your previous posts indicated that but as you said sarcasm is hard to read on a forum.
Straughn
18-03-2006, 00:03
Oh, okay. Yeah your previous posts indicated that but as you said sarcasm is hard to read on a forum.
Well, i'm sort of a work-in-progress ... so there's a lot more chiseling to do, it would appear. ;)
Desperate Measures
18-03-2006, 00:04
I know what it says, Fass. Remember that whole <sarcasm> thing? It's been postulated a few times that <sarcasm> doesn't translate well in this medium, so i helped with the quotes. I even left that part as a question.
Straughn! I didn't know you were a creationist...

This changes everything! We duel!
Fass
18-03-2006, 00:05
I know what it says, Fass. Remember that whole <sarcasm> thing? It's been postulated a few times that <sarcasm> doesn't translate well in this medium, so i helped with the quotes. I even left that part as a question.

Seeing as your OP was virtually devoid of personal comment, the title was left ambiguous. Hence my questioning it before ripping you a new one.
Straughn
18-03-2006, 00:05
Straughn! I didn't know you were a creationist...

This changes everything! We duel!
Just like in the locker room in junior high! :eek:
Straughn
18-03-2006, 00:06
Seeing as your OP was virtually devoid of personal comment, the title was left ambiguous. Hence my questioning it before ripping you a new one.
It's all good. I'm flexible.
So what do you actually think of the material?
Fass
18-03-2006, 00:09
It's all good. I'm flexible.
So what do you actually think of the material?

Yay science!
Straughn
18-03-2006, 00:22
Yay science!
Hmmm ... okay. I guess i failed in my OP to include props to both the scientific and spiritual realm.
Why didn't you mention that it has a lot of words, and including the second/follow-up post, there were even more words? ;)
Straughn
18-03-2006, 23:07
Perhaps i should've given a slightly different title. I think a lot of people might be under the assumption i'm talking about D & D or something along those lines. :(
Kyronea
18-03-2006, 23:11
SCIENCE!

Straughn, thank you for a thought-provoking and informative article.
Straughn
19-03-2006, 06:07
SCIENCE!
She *BLINDED* me .... ;)

Straughn, thank you for a thought-provoking and informative article.
Thank you. *bows* I try. This partcular issue, i imagine, should get a *lot* of people rearranging their attitudes towards science.
Neo Kervoskia
19-03-2006, 06:16
i imagine, should get a *lot* of people rearranging their attitudes towards science.
Not really.
Novoga
19-03-2006, 06:29
Thank you. *bows* I try. This partcular issue, i imagine, should get a *lot* of people rearranging their attitudes towards science.

Nah, they can just say all those crazy science folk just detected the left over of God's giant fart that created the Universe.
Taredas
19-03-2006, 06:36
Unfortunately, the religious literalists will claim that these new findings are "a test by God to see if we maintain unwavering faith in His inerrant Word"... or some BS like that.

Gah, living in east Texas among Christian literalists for ten years does have its side effects... such as the ability to predict their response to new evidence for evolution (either started by God or started by nature), in wording very similar to the words they will likely use. Somebody find a Temporary Sanity Zone, stat!
Willamena
19-03-2006, 06:38
What I don't get about Big Bang is, why do they assume that what was born from the cosmic "inflation" is the universe? Perhaps it is only one small corner of the universe. It seems as much folly as proclaiming science can eventually know everything there is to know.
Straughn
19-03-2006, 06:44
Nah, they can just say all those crazy science folk just detected the left over of God's giant fart that created the Universe.
Actually, that's a pretty good response. Sigworthy. :D
Straughn
19-03-2006, 06:53
What I don't get about Big Bang is, why do they assume that what was born from the cosmic "inflation" is the universe? Perhaps it is only one small corner of the universe. It seems as much folly as proclaiming science can eventually know everything there is to know.
I have my ifs about a few issues of science, notably the cosmological arguments of universal parameters, which, *agreed* requires what level of measurement?
The important thing to consider is whether or not the definable characteristics of known physics are part of a testable environment. This particular issue is coupled with the next phase, which will be the LHC experiment of 2007, where, at worst, a small black hole that will be created on the surface of the earth will propegate effects beyond containment. At best, it'll reinforce conditions of initial expansion, and it will obviously be in a testable and reproducible environment.
As long as there is time, there is learning to do, IMO.
Straughn
19-03-2006, 06:56
Not really.
I don't necessarily mean a *lot* of adjustment, i mean a *lot* of people, and not necessarily in good way.
There's already a few good and likely responses that y'all have provided here.