NationStates Jolt Archive

I've read quite a bunch of books about that war, lately - Orwell's Homage to Catalonia and Hemingway's For Whom the Bell Tolls beeing the most notable amongst them. In both novels the main character is foreigner, who fights in that war because of his personal faith and comprehension, the belief that he's doing the right thing. I thought about this with a friend of mine, and we came to conclusion that should an event like this occur nowadays, the number of people ready to go and fight for their ideals instead of personal goods (greed) or home country (nationalism) would be very, very few. So.

Hypotethical situation: you are 17-40 old person, living somewhere in Europe or America. The year is 1936, and fascistas start their rebellion against the leftist government of Spain. Considering your personal situation allows it, what would you do?

What I'd do hinges powerfully on blackjack and hookers. :)

I have very slow reflexes. I'm still reacting right now to the Norman Invasion.

I have very slow reflexes. I'm still reacting right now to the Norman Invasion.

The Normans invaded?

Considering your personal situation allows it, what would you do?
I'd help the Finns out against the commies.

I have very slow reflexes. I'm still reacting right now to the Norman Invasion.

How threatening can a bunch of guys named Norman be?!?

I'd help the Finns out against the commies.

Nice to hear! Though I thought that Ålanders were conscripted also? Anyways, that's a different war.

What would you do with this one?

How threatening can a bunch of guys named Norman be?!?

http://www.cheers-becker.de/c_norm_04.JPG

yaaarr!!

back on topic, sign me up for the durruti column

back on topic, sign me up for the durruti column

That's where I would be heading, too. Do you have a particular reason, or are you just a devoted anarchosyndicalist?

Back on topic... After careful consideration, I believe I would have fought on the Spanish side.

Back on topic... After careful consideration, I believe I would have fought on the Spanish side.
If you have nothing to say about the topic, then please do not post.

back on topic, sign me up for the durruti column

I always thought the quality level of their albums subsided massively after "time was gigantic when we were kids"

And the less said about Vini Reilly's work with Morrissey the better...

I would have supported the anarchists, of course.

That's where I would be heading, too. Do you have a particular reason, or are you just a devoted anarchosyndicalist?

mainly because of the devoted anarchist thing.

Nice to hear! Though I thought that Ålanders were conscripted also? Anyways, that's a different war.
I hail from the States. :p
The Finns say not too many Åländingar fought in the wars occuring around WWII and with the demilitarilizing there was no conscription, to my knowledge, on Åland. Before against the Russians and in the Finnish Civil War (or whatever they call it) Åländingar were rather active in the uprisings, but that was way before WWII (well, not really, but it seems like it).
What would you do with this one?
This is hard, because Spain and Finland are my two favorite countries other than the good old US of A, and I have relatives in Spain. Ugh. I'm not well read on this at all, but is the side that supported autonomy of Cataloñia and the Basque areas the liberals, as in the opponents of Franco?

Hmmm... I'm surprised. 1st because of the lack of interrest towards this thread and 2nd for the lack of support to the communists. Considering how many Reds we have here in NS, compared to the number of anarchists, this is really not what I had expected.

Btw, you who voted for F.A.I / C.N.T, are you aware of what would most likely be your destiny after the Barcelona uprising?

I'm not well read on this at all, but is the side that supported autonomy of Cataloñia and the Basque areas the liberals, as in the opponents of Franco?

yeah, they both sided with the republic (or the anarchists, as the case may be).

Btw, you who voted for F.A.I / C.N.T, are you aware of what would most likely be your destiny after the Barcelona uprising?

yes. but maybe i'd make it into exile and later get in on sending stuart christie off on his mission - perhaps with a slightly better plan and less francoist infiltration, even.

This is hard, because Spain and Finland are my two favorite countries other than the good old US of A, and I have relatives in Spain. Ugh. I'm not well read on this at all, but is the side that supported autonomy of Cataloñia and the Basque areas the liberals, as in the opponents of Franco?

Actually it went something like this: Fascists of Franco versus Leftist government that soon became communist due the heavy support and influence it, and especially the communist party, received from Soviet Union. In Catalonia, where the anarchosyndicalists were very strong, Federation Anarquista de Iberica and Confederacion Nacional de Trabajandores formed their own (very effective) militia forces and drove the Fascists out of there. PSUC was communist party that was very Stalinist and devotedly against POUM, which was said to be Trotskyist and was haunted by the Soviet-influenced police after the Barcelona uprising.

Damn confusing, I know. What I was actually trying to say was that there was really no such side as "liberals". Communists (Marxists, Trotskyist, Stalinist, Socialists, Revolutionary and Non-revolutionary ones, etc...), Anarchists and small separatist movement in Basque area that was somewhat supported by the Anarchists. They however lacked the resources to help them out. In Catalonia PSUC was mainly pro-independence, but sacrificed that ideal to keep their good relations with the Madrid government.

In Catalonia PSUC was mainly pro-independence, but sacrificed that ideal to keep their good relations with the Madrid government.

though catalonia got a good deal of autonomy during the republic

I would either align with the POUM or the CNT/FAI.

though catalonia got a good deal of autonomy during the republic

...untill the provocated battles in Barcelona, when the "Assault Guard" and National Guard of the government attacked CNT buildings and tried to arrest several POUM leaders, after which three days streetfight ensued. Even though PSUC supported the government, the autonomy was pretty much crushed.

That is however nothing compared to the fact that thousands of POUM militiamen that had fought for months against Francoists were jailed and shot without trials, and massive Soviet-machined propaganda campaign launched against them and the Anarchists. Not even in this war is it easy to define "good" and "bad".

In Catalonia PSUC was mainly pro-independence, but sacrificed that ideal to keep their good relations with the Madrid government.
To be honest, I wouldn't fight for Spainish independence. But I would lend my support to PSUC, as long as they kept up the autonomous ideals. Franco goofed up the decentralization that is part of Iberia's history. One can say that Castilians did as well, but its all übercomplicated, so I'll just leave it at that. It seeps as if all Franco had to do was mop up a wide variety of loosely associated lefties, so with the help of hindsight I doubt that my presence in Spain would lead to an Española nueva with all minority groups having more rights and authority over themselves than now, of course unified by some sort of government over the local authorities. Something. I'm not sure what, but something.

About the lack of interest so to say, just wait for the couple Spaniards we have around here. They usually jump on these threads.

Hoch O'Duffy!

Oh, wait, no...

I would either align with the POUM or the CNT/FAI.

Why?

Why?

Because the "Communists", at the urging of Stalinist Russia, betrayed the revolutionaries.

I have no opinion on the stupid sectarian differences between left-wing Marxists and Anarchists. In this case both the POUM and the Anarchists backed working-class rule, and that is what matters.

Hypotethical situation: you are 17-40 old person, living somewhere in Europe or America. The year is 1936, and fascistas start their rebellion against the leftist government of Spain. Considering your personal situation allows it, what would you do?
I would like to go and fight for the right side. (In this case the left side!)

The benefit of retrospect: Problem is, most of the leftist military organisations were backed by the USSR. So if they won Spain would just become another Soviet Socialist Republic, just another dictatorship. So it would make very little difference.

To be honest,1.I wouldn't fight for Spainish independence. But I would lend my support to PSUC, as long as they kept up the autonomous ideals. Franco goofed up the decentralization that is part of Iberia's history. One can say that Castilians did as well, but its all übercomplicated, so I'll just leave it at that. 2.It seeps as if all Franco had to do was mop up a wide variety of loosely associated lefties, so with the help of hindsight I doubt that my presence in Spain would lead to an Española nueva with all minority groups having more rights and authority over themselves than now, of course unified by some sort of government over the local authorities. Something. I'm not sure what, but something.

About the lack of interest so to say, just wait for the couple Spaniards we have around here. They usually jump on these threads.

1.Well, atleast one thing would be good to know - Spain was already independent, and no one was going to take away that independence. Spaniards (mainly) fought against other Spaniards. That's why it is called a civil war. :)

2.Unfortunately, that thought is not too far frmo reality. The inability of the leftists groups to leave their silly party arguements and consentrate against the common enemy was the most important reason for the defeat against Fascism. Second is the Soviet Union which, like always, managed to fuck everything up as bad as humanly possible with their "internal investigations" and terror.

I've read quite a bunch of books about that war, lately - Orwell's Homage to Catalonia and Hemingway's For Whom the Bell Tolls beeing the most notable amongst them. In both novels the main character is foreigner, who fights in that war because of his personal faith and comprehension, the belief that he's doing the right thing. I thought about this with a friend of mine, and we came to conclusion that should an event like this occur nowadays, the number of people ready to go and fight for their ideals instead of personal goods (greed) or home country (nationalism) would be very, very few. So.

Hypotethical situation: you are 17-40 old person, living somewhere in Europe or America. The year is 1936, and fascistas start their rebellion against the leftist government of Spain. Considering your personal situation allows it, what would you do?
Why aid anarchist rabble?

Three cookies to whoever can correctly guess the source of that.

I would like to go and fight for the right side. (In this case the left side!)

The benefit of retrospect: Problem is, most of the leftist military organisations were backed by the USSR. So if they won Spain would just become another Soviet Socialist Republic, just another dictatorship. So it would make very little difference.
Some, but not all. POUM and FAI/CNT were in fact heavily attacked by the Soviets in every possible situation, and later even under straight violence and persecution.
Had Durruti lived and Anarchists managed to capture more weapons in the very beginning of the conflict... *SIGH*

1.Well, atleast one thing would be good to know - Spain was already independent, and no one was going to take away that independence. Spaniards (mainly) fought against other Spaniards. That's why it is called a civil war.
Brain fart.
Funny about the USSR and its "internal investigations". :p

Why aid anarchist rabble?
Three cookies to whoever can correctly guess the source of that.

Some British politician, I guess... even Churchill perhaps?

Some British politician, I guess... even Churchill perhaps?
While possible, I was actually referring to a choice in Hearts of Iron II when the Spanish Civil War occurs. As France, the U.K, Germany, Italy, or the Soviet Union, you have a choice to interfere or not.

While possible, I was actually referring to a choice in Hearts of Iron II when the Spanish Civil War occurs. As France, the U.K, Germany, Italy, or the Soviet Union, you have a choice to interfere or not.
Heh, HoI2 was my source also...I guessed that since it occurs with Brits and French (only with them though. Italians and Germans have different texts, since their option is to support the other side.) it would be quoted from some politician. But apparently it isn't.

I would of joined the International Brigades and thought for democracy, liberty ect ect

I would of joined the International Brigades and thought for democracy, liberty ect ect

Thought for democracy! :D What a brave man!


(It was typo, I know, I know...)

Some, but not all. POUM and FAI/CNT were in fact heavily attacked by the Soviets in every possible situation, and later even under straight violence and persecution.
Had Durruti lived and Anarchists managed to capture more weapons in the very beginning of the conflict... *SIGH*
Yeah, I would join the anarchists. Anyone but the Soviets and Franco.

Entirely dependant. Had I the means I would proffer financial and logistical aid to Franco, or, in the absence of the means, join his cause and fight for the established order. The above would be compelled not so much by my affinity for the Franco administration as its being preferable to any of the above options.

I would side with the POUM ideally, although I am not a Marxist (assuming I wouldn't have been in that scenario). However, it is quite plausible that the PSOE would have made me support the Popular Front, and thus I would have lived the illusion regardless.

btw: your thread could've done with more options:
-Republicans supporting Franco
-Catholics supporting Franco
-Carlists supporting Franco
-Fascists/National-syndicalists supporting Franco

see the problem here is, if you tolerate this, then your children will be next

While possible, I was actually referring to a choice in Hearts of Iron II when the Spanish Civil War occurs. As France, the U.K, Germany, Italy, or the Soviet Union, you have a choice to interfere or not.


I thought so!

As for which side I would fight on, probably the POUM

I would side with the POUM ideally, although I am not a Marxist (assuming I wouldn't have been in that scenario). However, it is quite plausible that the PSOE would have made me support the Popular Front, and thus I would have lived the illusion regardless.

btw: your thread could've done with more options:
-Republicans supporting Franco
-Catholics supporting Franco
-Carlists supporting Franco
-Fascists/National-syndicalists supporting Franco

I didn't and still don't think that would make any difference. Unlike on the Republican side, in Francoist army it didn't really matter to which group did you belong. Atleast in my knowledge there were no real conflicts between different pro-Franco parties.

...If you tolerate this, then your children will be next

You win the thread.

http://perso.univ-lyon2.fr/~jcseguin/Guerra%20civil/Carteles/cnt.jpg

Atleast in my knowledge there were no real conflicts between different pro-Franco parties.

There were certainly conflicts between the different right-wing groups when came to the leadership question.

There were certainly conflicts between the different right-wing groups when came to the leadership question.

For a foreign volunteer that question seems however quite irrelevant. To his position it would not make too big difference if he was in a Carlist or National syndicalist unit. The army still stood as one. In republican sides the differences were much more important since an armed conflict, civil war in civil war, took place between different factions.

From what I know of the conflict, the anarchists seem to be the best group to join, although Hemingway portrays them comically in For Whom the Bell Tolls.

From what I know of the conflict, the anarchists seem to be the best group to join, although Hemingway portrays them comically in For Whom the Bell Tolls.
That's why you should read Orwell's Homage to Catalonia, to get another point of view. I personally think FAI and POUM to be the best options, but members of both faced untrust and hostility, later a horrible haunt by the Madrid government, and their percentage of losses are the darkest in that war.

That's why you should read Orwell's Homage to Catalonia, to get another point of view. I personally think FAI and POUM to be the best options, but members of both faced untrust and hostility, later a horrible haunt by the Madrid government, and their percentage of losses are the darkest in that war.I haven't read that book, but I've read excerpts, and I liked the way he described the anarchists. I do plan to read it, but I can't find it anywhere, and I don't wanna order it from amazon. Perhaps I'll double check if they have it at the anarchist book store.

How threatening can a bunch of guys named Norman be?!?

I dunno, Norman Hale from cheesy early 90s comedy duo "Hale and Pace" used to play an intimidating bouncer in one sketch.

Howards are the ones to look out for mind you. Not because they are threatening, but because they are everywhere. I know seven of the buggers.

I would have supported no one. I'd love to say "the Nationalists," because they fought communism, but then again, they were fascists, and fascism is communism lite.

I would have supported no one. I'd love to say "the Nationalists," because they fought communism, but then again, they were fascists, and fascism is communism lite.

Except that it isn't. It would propably the best choise for you not to do anything since you seemingly know nothing about the subject. :)

There were certainly conflicts between the different right-wing groups when came to the leadership question.

i've always been amazed that franco pulled it off.

"oh yes, restoring the bourbon family to the spanish throne. i'll get right on that, wait here..."

I haven't read that book, but I've read excerpts, and I liked the way he described the anarchists. I do plan to read it, but I can't find it anywhere, and I don't wanna order it from amazon. Perhaps I'll double check if they have it at the anarchist book store.

if you can't find it, let me know and i'll lend you my copy sometime

How threatening can a bunch of guys named Norman be?!?

You obviously haven't watched Mighty Max.

I haven't read that book, but I've read excerpts, and I liked the way he described the anarchists. I do plan to read it, but I can't find it anywhere, and I don't wanna order it from amazon. Perhaps I'll double check if they have it at the anarchist book store.

It's on the Internet in full.

http://www.george-orwell.org/Homage_to_Catalonia/index.html

I didn't and still don't think that would make any difference. Unlike on the Republican side, in Francoist army it didn't really matter to which group did you belong. Atleast in my knowledge there were no real conflicts between different pro-Franco parties.
Oh, not true.
Franco dissolved the CEDA and swallowed the Falange (which is why he is more of a Fascist impersonator than a Fascist). The national-syndicalists, which were technically the left-wing Falange, were silenced. There was this gut, Ledesma Ramos, who died during the war because he was trapped in Madrid, who is seen as the patron saint of the Falange. In fact, this guy had attempted to bridge the gap between Anarcho-syndicalists in the CNT and Fascism, by bringing into it the by-now forgotten ideology named Integralism. He was largely ignored by the CNT, but also split with the JONS, and went on record (a record carefully erased by Franco) saying that "the red shirt of Garibaldi suits better Ledesma and his friends than the black shirt of Mussolini" (for some reason, he referred to himself in the third person).
Orwell makes this blurry statement about seeing the Republican flag with a swastika in Nationalist lines (a big fashion no-no). I think he actually saw a section of these guys. Ledesma had created the symbol for the Falange that stuck with Francoists. Ever seen it? It is black and red (hmmm...).
The Catholic Church even threatened Franco that they were to place Ledesma on the Index.

Plus, this is not about conflict, but about different ideologies: the Francoist came from different places, with distinct ideologies - consider the weird Carlists as opposed to the national-syndicalists (facade and genuine). I mean, up until the 1930s, you'd've seen the Carlists fighting for the other side. The breaking point was, I guess, the Asturias revolution, when left-wingers pointed out that they were the ones to stand for the miners (the split over a war economy and a non-productive Spanish Revolution twisted things again, but it was too late: at that point, Carlists and the FAI shared the hatred of industrial society, but they had no chance of seeing eye-to-eye on other matters).

Also, during the 1970s, the left Falange became a small anarcho-syndicalist party.

Also, if this were about conflicts, then why have two options for POUM and the Anarchists? - no matter where they started from, they fought on the same side throughout. All, except for the Anarchists who stuck with the government even after the May Days. Check it out: Juan García Oliver, Ángel Pestaña, and Federica Montseny remained in the Popular Front.