NationStates Jolt Archive

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
--Thomas Paine

Who agrees or disagrees?

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
--Thomas Paine

Who agrees or disagrees?

Disagree. They are great places where people come together to be united, to feel better about themselves and to feel a closer connection to God. Whats wrong with that?

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
--Thomas Paine

Who agrees or disagrees?

You know what's hilarious? I am actually quite fond of Paine. I use one of his quotes fairly often: "To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."

Yet, I intend to become a Catholic Priest at the earlies opportunity...

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
--Thomas Paine

Who agrees or disagrees?

I agree that they are human inventions. I don't agree that they are set up to terrify and enslave mankind. I'm sure some of them wouldn't mind monopolizing power and profit.

Really, I think of organized religion as a sort-of state without borders. They are institutions with rules and followers much as states are, and often have incredible influence over states. And much like states, these organizations are capable of all manner of behaviour, both good and bad.

Disagree. They are great places where people come together to be united, to feel better about themselves and to feel a closer connection to God. Whats wrong with that?
That's the building, Thomas Paine was talking about the institutions, you know, the ones that usually exclude people who don't agree with them and condemn them to hell.

Disagree. They are great places where people come together to be united, to feel better about themselves and to feel a closer connection to God. Whats wrong with that?

Never mistake an inn in which to spend a limited period a house in which to install oneself.:D

Incidentally, I was nearly classed a heretic today by Christian girl, who, having asked: "If you could be a fictional character, who would you be?", was mortally offended by my response of "God".

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
--Thomas Paine

Who agrees or disagrees?
I disagree, because when you use an absolute you are always wrong. ;)

I do not think it is good to make such sweeping generalisations about any topic be it church or government or anything else. Organized religion has no more good or bad intentions than those who lead it and those who follow it.

Its still a mob. Religion needs to stay in the private sector and stay out of public affairs. Let people think for themselves for a change. We should start taxing churches here in the US if they want to meddle in politics.
Because churches are tax-exempt, the average American pays around an extra $1000 a year to support them. They own 20-25% of all real estate in America(thats without property taxes!) In the US church donations total over a $20 billion dollars a year. Thats not including profits from buisnesses, stock holdings, bond holdings, retirement centers, or lease-back agreements. I seem to remember Jesus going to the temple and throwing a fit about the preists allowing the money-changers and other businessmen to engage in commerce on holy ground. Smells of hypocracy.
Churches should not exist for profit.

Turkish?

I disagree, by and large. The modern institution of the Church may be a largely human creation, but the original grounds it stood upon, plus the overall benefits that many people reap because of them, should still be taken into consideration.

Let people think for themselves for a change.
And by "think for themselves" you mean "whole-heartedly disbelieve in God because I personally think He's a farce"? Yeah, way to stick up for indiviualism there. Some of us do think for ourselves, and some of us do come to these conclusions of faith on our own. In that case, Oh Open-Minded One, who are you to judge us?

Turkish?
Yes, what with Paine's infamous hatred of the Turks.... :D

He's right, though. Religion is so obviously a human construct that one might as well deny that rocks are hard. I mean, really, are we to believe that it is mere coincidence that the God of Christian fundamentalists happens to share their vendetta with gays and communists while the original was just as concerned with keeping people off shellfish and setting the rules for acceptable forms of slavery? Isn't it obvious that the belligerence of the Norse gods is a reflection of Viking culture?

Simonist']I disagree, by and large. The modern institution of the Church may be a largely human creation, but the original grounds it stood upon, plus the overall benefits that many people reap because of them, should still be taken into consideration.


And by "think for themselves" you mean "whole-heartedly disbelieve in God because I personally think He's a farce"? Yeah, way to stick up for indiviualism there. Some of us do think for ourselves, and some of us do come to these conclusions of faith on our own. In that case, Oh Open-Minded One, who are you to judge us?


Yes, what with Paine's infamous hatred of the Turks.... :D

When did I ever mention god, my idea of god, or your idea of god?

Assuming things about my spirituality and putting words in my mouth because I believe in the separation of church and state is a big stretch.:)
Are you an individual? You implied that I was including you. If you are an individual then what exactly are you getting defensive about?


And I believe Paine was refering to the eastern orthodox church.

Religion is a human construct for self-justification. It merely reflects the ambient morality. No matter how unpleasant an act, religion can justify it.

Assuming things about my spirituality and putting words in my mouth because I believe in the separation of church and state is a big stretch.:)
Are you an individual? You implied that I was including you. If you are an individual then what exactly are you getting defensive about?
Who was putting words in whose mouth? You made a broad, sweeping generalisation in terms of folks not thinking for themselves, in apparent coordination of the Churches misleading people.....I don't believe I did any more damage than you yourself did.

YOU implied you were including me in that generalisation -- such are the natures of generalisations. I, as an individual, stood up and said "Don't put us in a box" in reference to YOUR statement of people thinking for themselves.

If you didn't mean any of what I allegedly "put in your mouth", what are you getting defensive about?

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
--Thomas Paine

Who agrees or disagrees?
I agree, both from my anti-religious bias, and from the idea that if a person wants to share spiritual issues about stuff they can't prove, they shouldn't expect to make a political powerhouse out of it, they should instead treat it the same way you would *any* book club, with tea & crumpets, by a soft, licking fire, as a fellowship. Or in the basement of some thick, dank, smelly castle with torture devices. *shrug*

If we didn't have churches, what would bored college kids burn?

Its still a mob. Religion needs to stay in the private sector and stay out of public affairs. Let people think for themselves for a change. We should start taxing churches here in the US if they want to meddle in politics.
Because churches are tax-exempt, the average American pays around an extra $1000 a year to support them. They own 20-25% of all real estate in America(thats without property taxes!) In the US church donations total over a $20 billion dollars a year. Thats not including profits from buisnesses, stock holdings, bond holdings, retirement centers, or lease-back agreements. I seem to remember Jesus going to the temple and throwing a fit about the preists allowing the money-changers and other businessmen to engage in commerce on holy ground. Smells of hypocracy.
Churches should not exist for profit.
Agreed. *bows*

*ahem*

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chicago/chi-0603100281mar10,1,6592610.story?coll=chi-newslocalchicago-hed

Dobson targeted on ties to Abramoff

Published March 10, 2006


COLORADO SPRINGS -- A group is targeting Focus on the Family founder James Dobson for work against a proposed Indian casino also opposed by a client of disgraced lobbyist Jack Abramoff.

The Campaign to Defend the Constitution, an online effort to combat "religious right" influence, launched a New York Times ad and TV spots in three markets Wednesday. Besides Dobson, the campaign targets Ralph Reed, former executive director of the Christian Coalition, and Rev. Lou Sheldon of the Traditional Values Coalition.

Abramoff fought the proposal from the Jena Band of Choctaw Indians on behalf of the Coushatta Tribe of Louisiana, which has a casino. In e-mails made public during a Senate investigation, Abramoff and Reed took credit for getting Dobson to produce radio ads. Abramoff pleaded guilty to fraud in January.

Tom Minnery, Focus' public policy vice president, said Dobson wrote letters regarding a casino proposed by the Jena Indians in 2002 but never produced radio ads.

Agreed in the strongest possible terms. Churches, Religion and God are the biggest piles of man created poo since the Bible.

If we didn't have churches, what would bored college kids burn?
Besides underwear, midnight oil, and reefer? ;)

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
--Thomas Paine

Who agrees or disagrees?

What many posters are not catching is the "national" adjective before institutions. He seems to be talking about state-run religions - not so much religion in general. Big difference.

Oh... and I agree.

Agreed in the strongest possible terms. Churches, Religion and God are the biggest piles of man created poo since the Bible.

And I absolutely resent having to capitalise those words!

Agreed in the strongest possible terms. Churches, Religion and God are the biggest piles of man created poo since the Bible.

...

I'm pretty sure all three of those were 'created' before the bible.

...

I'm pretty sure all three of those were 'created' before the bible.

Drat, someone said it before me!

DTD, if you're going to insult someone (especially billions of someones), do it without making yourself look silly :p

Furthermore, your friend the edit button is there so you don't have to do crazy things such as quote yourself for no reason.

If we didn't have churches, what would bored college kids burn?

And don't forget the Norwegian metal bands. :D

...Churches, Religion and God are the biggest piles of man created poo since the Bible.

Yes, but is it "sham" poo? or real poo?

Simonist']Who was putting words in whose mouth? You made a broad, sweeping generalisation in terms of folks not thinking for themselves, in apparent coordination of the Churches misleading people.....I don't believe I did any more damage than you yourself did.

YOU implied you were including me in that generalisation -- such are the natures of generalisations. I, as an individual, stood up and said "Don't put us in a box" in reference to YOUR statement of people thinking for themselves.

If you didn't mean any of what I allegedly "put in your mouth", what are you getting defensive about?

Put down some facts or go away

Put down some facts or go away
Way to contribute to a debate kid. :rolleyes:

Put down some facts or go away

Fact: Churches are voluntary organizations. If people want to give their money to it, why should you object? It's their choice. And don't call the Church a moneymaking organization just because people like giving money to churches.

And do you know why church land is tax deductible in the US? Because it was voted that it should be so, and if someone tries to overturn that, people will object. That's called democracy. But somehow, you interpret it as the church's moneymaking scheme.

Put down some facts or go away
We're not debating facts. You haven't required any facts, nor put them down yourself.

If you've got nothing better to contribute than continued proof of what a git you're turning out to be, then......ignored ye shall be.

Yes, but is it "sham" poo? or real poo?

Proper smelly poo with nuts and raisins in.

Big ol pile o poo. And I aint no kid suka!

Fact: Churches are voluntary organizations. If people want to give their money to it, why should you object? It's their choice. And don't call the Church a moneymaking organization just because people like giving money to churches.

And do you know why church land is tax deductible in the US? Because it was voted that it should be so, and if someone tries to overturn that, people will object. That's called democracy. But somehow, you interpret it as the church's moneymaking scheme.

Well then you can tell Jerry Fallwell, Pat Robertson, Ralph Reed and other ilk that you are so fond of that they can stay the fuck out of the courts that I pay for and stop trying to change my fucking laws!

Simonist']We're not debating facts. You haven't required any facts, nor put them down yourself.

If you've got nothing better to contribute than continued proof of what a git you're turning out to be, then......ignored ye shall be.

You don't read before you type do you?

[QUOTE=Fimbriae]Because churches are tax-exempt, the average American pays around an extra $1000 a year to support them. They own close to 20% of all real estate in America(thats without property taxes!) In the US church donations total over a $20 billion dollars a year. Thats not including profits from buisnesses, stock holdings, bond holdings, retirement centers, or lease-back agreements. I seem to remember Jesus going to the temple and throwing a fit about the preists allowing the money-changers and other businessmen to engage in commerce on holy ground. Smells of hypocracy.
Churches should not exist for profit.[QUOTE]

...

I'm pretty sure all three of those were 'created' before the bible.

Pedant! I was thinking of Churches, Gods and Religions spawned from the man created ramblings of the Bible. Sorry for the lack of specificity

Well then you can tell Jerry Fallwell, Pat Robertson, Ralph Reed and other ilk that you are so fond of that they can stay the fuck out of the courts that I pay for and stop trying to change my fucking laws!

Did I say I like Pat Robertson and his like? No. They're going about religion in entriely the wrong manner.

But... your laws? That's an interesting way to phrase it. Why did you call the law of the US "your laws"?

Pedant! I was thinking of Churches, Gods and Religions spawned from the man created ramblings of the Bible. Sorry for the lack of specificity

But your specification merely serves to make you look even more silly, my friend. There were religions, places of worship, and deities before the Bible.

Did I say I like Pat Robertson and his like? No. They're going about religion in entriely the wrong manner.

But... your laws? That's an interesting way to phrase it. Why did you call the law of the US "your laws"?



But your specification merely serves to make you look even more silly, my friend. There were religions, places of worship, and deities before the Bible.


Um, gee, I seem to recall paying taxes.:confused: And my laws affect me.

You don't read before you type do you?

[QUOTE=Fimbriae]Because churches are tax-exempt, the average American pays around an extra $1000 a year to support them. They own 20-25% of all real estate in America(thats without property taxes!) In the US church donations total over a $20 billion dollars a year. Thats not including profits from buisnesses, stock holdings, bond holdings, retirement centers, or lease-back agreements. I seem to remember Jesus going to the temple and throwing a fit about the preists allowing the money-changers and other businessmen to engage in commerce on holy ground. Smells of hypocracy.
Churches should not exist for profit.[QUOTE]

Learn to use quote tags, child. I don't even want to figure out how to fix this after what the hell you did to it.

And that wasn't even the topic of OUR little interchange. Don't try to alter the facts now, because everybody's gonna know how full of crap you are about this. Had I addressed THAT part of your post, I would've quoted it. As I wasn't, I didn't.

Now, got any facts referring to what we were actually discussing, or are you still going down a false path here that will ultimitely actually just annoy you and make me think you're kinda dumb?

(And why the hell isn't the ignore function working? This is very disconcerting...)

Religion is a human construct for self-justification. It merely reflects the ambient morality. No matter how unpleasant an act, religion can justify it.
You can justify anthing, with or without religion.

If we didn't have churches, what would bored college kids burn?
Bums?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1540733/posts

Simonist'][QUOTE=Fimbriae]You don't read before you type do you?

[QUOTE=Fimbriae]Because churches are tax-exempt, the average American pays around an extra $1000 a year to support them. They own 20-25% of all real estate in America(thats without property taxes!) In the US church donations total over a $20 billion dollars a year. Thats not including profits from buisnesses, stock holdings, bond holdings, retirement centers, or lease-back agreements. I seem to remember Jesus going to the temple and throwing a fit about the preists allowing the money-changers and other businessmen to engage in commerce on holy ground. Smells of hypocracy.
Churches should not exist for profit.

Learn to use quote tags, child. I don't even want to figure out how to fix this after what the hell you did to it.

And that wasn't even the topic of OUR little interchange. Don't try to alter the facts now, because everybody's gonna know how full of crap you are about this. Had I addressed THAT part of your post, I would've quoted it. As I wasn't, I didn't.

Now, got any facts referring to what we were actually discussing, or are you still going down a false path here that will ultimitely actually just annoy you and make me think you're kinda dumb?

(And why the hell isn't the ignore function working? This is very disconcerting...)

It seems your the one with quote malfarction. Maybe you should get some erdumication. And, by the way don't call me child.

Also, exactly what is your argument, because my position is clear.

[QUOTE=But your specification merely serves to make you look even more silly, my friend. There were religions, places of worship, and deities before the Bible.[/QUOTE]

My specification specified that I was talking specifically about specific Religions 'spawned from' the great and almighty Bible. Argumentative sod, take it back; go on...

[QUOTE='[NS]Simonist'][QUOTE=Fimbriae]You don't read before you type do you?



It seems your the one with quote malfarction. Maybe you should get some erdumication. And, by the way don't call me child.
Don't act like one. And refer to your post up there.....YOU originally fucked up the quotes tags. It's your crap-job that crapped up my quote. Even here you haven't fixed it, nor am I going to. Seems you can't get your shit together no matter how you choose to fail at picking on me.

Um, gee, I seem to recall paying taxes.

Your taxes are there so that you can also devote your life to throwing yourself against the legal system as well. Everyone has the same opportunities, so the taxes cover the same things for Pat Robertson that they do for you.

And my laws affect me.

"Your" laws also effect Pat Robertson, so doesn't he have the same rights to petition to change them that you do?

Simonist'][QUOTE=Fimbriae][QUOTE='[NS]Simonist']
Don't act like one. And refer to your post up there.....YOU originally fucked up the quotes tags. It's your crap-job that crapped up my quote. Even here you haven't fixed it, nor am I going to. Seems you can't get your shit together no matter how you choose to fail at picking on me.

You know there are thousands of users like you who do nothing for a debate, you do nothing but pick at lateral nonsense at the expense of intelligent conversation. Who cares about the fucking QUOTE billshit, get on with a position of your own and stop riding on mine.

My specification specified that I was talking specifically about specific Religions 'spawned from' the great and almighty Bible. Argumentative sod, take it back; go on...

"I was thinking of Churches, Gods and Religions spawned from the man created ramblings of the Bible. Sorry for the lack of specificity"

If you had put the word "the" between "thinking of" and "Churches", it would have aided your clarity. I thought you were making a sarcastic statement (although the genuine apology in the second sentence should have clued me in).

So, it is my turn for a genuine apology. Sorry for misunderstanding you.

"Argumentative sod, take it back; go on..."- I like that phrase. I'll have to use it sometime :D



You know there are thousands of users like you who do nothing for a debate, you do nothing but pick at lateral nonsense at the expense of intelligent conversation. Who cares about the fucking QUOTE billshit, get on with a position of your own and stop riding on mine.

Well said, although I'm sure you could have gotten your point across without resorting to profanity.

You know there are thousands of users like you who do nothing for a debate, you do nothing but pick at lateral nonsense at the expense of intelligent conversation. Who cares about the fucking QUOTE billshit, get on with a position of your own and stop riding on mine.
I haven't been riding on yours. I haven't even figured out the point of you being here, really. You get down on kids for bad grammar and spelling when yours isn't that great, you knock me for putting words in your mouth when I didn't, you assume we're debating one thing when I had no qualms with that particular issue you brought up, and now you're going to peg this entire thing on me even though anybody who matters knows better.

I'm gonna double-check that ignore thing before I get off for the night and hope that it's working, and maybe you could stand to get laid or high, anything to ease the tension. You seem like the kind of prat who might need it.

Your taxes are there so that you can also devote your life to throwing yourself against the legal system as well. Everyone has the same opportunities, so the taxes cover the same things for Pat Robertson that they do for you.



"Your" laws also effect Pat Robertson, so doesn't he have the same rights to petition to change them that you do?

And so by stating my position on a public forum I'm infringing Pat Robertsons rights in some way? :confused:

Unfortunately, I don't see an ignore option either.

Historically tax-exemption for churches has been allowed with the understanding that the church would relieve the state(our tax dollars) from social and welfare responsibilities by providing for the poor with whatever monies and property it accumulated. Any excess would be used for this purpose only, not to be accumulated. Right from the beginning of this agreement, there were certain(legally understood) prohibitions of activity and conduct to recieve these tax benefits. And this is the exact statement of purpose as defined by the Federal Government, "by devoting itself exclusively to the public good".
Instead of using excess monies to help the poor as they are supposed to do, most of these churches use it to greedilyinvest for more profit in ventures totally unrelated to church activity. A classic example is the Catholic Church which preaches against birth control. One of the Vatican's biggest investments for profit is in the pharmaceutical firm that manufactures birth control pills.

"I was thinking of Churches, Gods and Religions spawned from the man created ramblings of the Bible. Sorry for the lack of specificity"

If you had put the word "the" between "thinking of" and "Churches", it would have aided your clarity. I thought you were making a sarcastic statement (although the genuine apology in the second sentence should have clued me in).

So, it is my turn for a genuine apology. Sorry for misunderstanding you.

"Argumentative sod, take it back; go on..."- I like that phrase. I'll have to use it sometime :D

That isn't an apology, you called me 'silly'. The misunderstanding was not insulting; you're that busy trying to make 'silly' the disbievers in religion that the misunderstanding was inevitable. The clarity was perfect for any English understanding reader.

That isn't an apology, you called me 'silly'. The misunderstanding was not insulting; you're that busy trying to make 'silly' the disbievers in religion that the misunderstanding was inevitable. The clarity was perfect for any English understanding reader.

Then I also apologize for calling you silly (perhaps in your region, "silly" is a more offensive word than in mine. It is quite harmless, to my understanding, a socially acceptable replacement for any sort of serious insult). And I would appreciate it if you would apologize for implying that I am not proficient in English.

Religion is a human construct for self-justification. It merely reflects the ambient morality. No matter how unpleasant an act, religion can justify it.
God told me to do it, I swear. :rolleyes:

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
--Thomas Paine

Who agrees or disagrees?

I agree that many organized religions have become just what Paine described. They terrify people into belief with threats of hell and damnation, teach them to fear their own rational thought by telling them that the priests and ministers know better, enslave them to dogma, this gives them (the religions) power over their (the "believers") actions and finances.

I disagree that this was the intention. But then, "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

Let me explain something about myself. There was a time when I was a child when we were quite poor. My mom had decided to start attending churches in our area. We would go and after the service we would eat potluck, about the only charity we ever got. They did'nt care for the fact that my mother had been divorced and always mentioned that it was a sin. I grew up believing(and still do) in evolution, that the world was round, older than 6000 years, and that Adam and Eve were fairytales but the sunday school teachers said that satan had poisoned my mind. Actually my mother taught me all that stuff before I went to first grade so I wondered why these people were telling me that my mom worked for satan. Anyways, not one of the churches we went to(we went to baptist, methodist, lutheran, mormon or whereever we were invited to attend) ever bothered to lift a hand to help feed us or clothe us(I had a little brother and sister) they never offered my mother a job or helped her get a better one. But there was never any lack of invitations to go to church and my mom would always put money in the donation tray.:confused: It seems that if your not already a bum they don't have anything besides Jesus and the promise of hellfire.
But you know who was always there for us? The U.S. government. This was only like a 3 to 4 year period that we were poor, but during that time WIC kept us fed, as did food stamps and we also collected AFDC due to the fact that my dad neglected to pay child support my whole life. But he attended church every service that whole time just a good little christian. He was eventually forced by the government to pay off the AFDC. LOL. Anyways it just seems in my personal experience that the majority of churches don't hold up their end of the bargain. I will exempt at least some presbytarian churches because a good friend of mine and her siblings were raised and schooled by them as their parents had died but they seem to be the exception.

Then I also apologize for calling you silly (perhaps in your region, "silly" is a more offensive word than in mine. It is quite harmless, to my understanding, a socially acceptable replacement for any sort of serious insult). And I would appreciate it if you would apologize for implying that I am not proficient in English.

Thanks. I have never implied that your English isn't proficient nor have I implied that you write like a child. However, questioning anyones clarity of language also warrants an apology, if unjustified, but I'll let you off that one ;)

I'm slightly surprised that no one has mentioned tithing, though I suppose it's not as big of a deal in other places as it is here. The LDS church requires its members to give 10% of their paycheck to the church. That's not what I would call "voluntary".

I'm slightly surprised that no one has mentioned tithing, though I suppose it's not as big of a deal in other places as it is here. The LDS church requires its members to give 10% of their paycheck to the church. That's not what I would call "voluntary".

What idoes LDS stand for? And some of the churches did collect tithes from us.

What idoes LDS stand for? And some of the churches did collect tithes from us.
The Church of Latter-Day Saints, i.e. Mormons

It pretty much works like this: If you don't give 10% of your check, you're a heathen and you're going to Hell. Good luck to you.

I'm slightly surprised that no one has mentioned tithing, though I suppose it's not as big of a deal in other places as it is here. The LDS church requires its members to give 10% of their paycheck to the church. That's not what I would call "voluntary".

But membership is voluntary.

-edit- Oh, unless you live in Utah.

@Fimbriae: LDS stands for Latter Day Saints (Mormons)

But membership is voluntary.

-edit- Oh, unless you live in Utah.

@Fimbriae: LDS stands for Latter Day Saints (Mormons)

Touche. (I like the Utah comment too, but there are a few small holdouts :p )

But I find that ridiculous. Give us your money, or you go to Hell. If I was to put a gun to someone's head and say "Give me 20 bucks and you live" it would be called ransom.
Show me the difference. (Though, please don't point out that the church doens't murder you)

*edit* Churches hold one's faith at ransom, they ask for money in order to give redemption. It's almost like capitalism in its most basic sense: The grace of God is capital and the churches control the means of production.

But membership is voluntary.

Belief and faith are hardly free choices though.

If you believe the LDS are right then it isn't as simply as excommunicating yourself.

Belief and faith are hardly free choices though.

If you believe the LDS are right then it isn't as simply as excommunicating yourself.
Precisely.

The Church of Latter-Day Saints, i.e. Mormons

It pretty much works like this: If you don't give 10% of your check, you're a heathen and you're going to Hell. Good luck to you.

You see the church goes about in it's many guises sucking in the succeptible and then demands the cash. I don't want to insult anyone but I know 'weakened' individuals (life not so good, alcohol dependant, drugs, suicidal etc.) who have been suckered in by churches and religions, including christianity, and have totally changed - for the worse. The only thing I can liken it to is a form of drug/alcohol addiction; they are totally believing and totally unwilling to accept their former selves or other ways of thinking. Like a drug, I swear.

But membership is voluntary.

-edit- Oh, unless you live in Utah.

@Fimbriae: LDS stands for Latter Day Saints (Mormons)

Thanks, its funny because I went to a mormon church for four months or so, I even got baptised, did'nt feel anything. The elders that came to the house to preach were nice though.

You see the church goes about in it's many guises sucking in the succeptible and then demands the cash. I don't want to insult anyone but I know 'weakened' individuals (life not so good, alcohol dependant, drugs, suicidal etc.) who have been suckered in by churches and religions, including christianity, and have totally changed - for the worse. The only thing I can liken it to is a form of drug/alcohol addiction; they are totally believing and totally unwilling to accept their former selves or other ways of thinking. Like a drug, I swear.

I believe that many neurologists would agree with you.

Touche. (I like the Utah comment too, but there are a few small holdouts :p )

But I find that ridiculous. Give us your money, or you go to Hell. If I was to put a gun to someone's head and say "Give me 20 bucks and you live" it would be called ransom.
Show me the difference. (Though, please don't point out that the church doens't murder you)

*edit* Churches hold one's faith at ransom, they ask for money in order to give redemption. It's almost like capitalism in its most basic sense: The grace of God is capital and the churches control the means of production.


sorry, I wanted to quote it, because people would probably overlook my edit.

sorry, I wanted to quote it, because people would probably overlook my edit.

Yes, the church should be a sanctuary from commerce and capitalisim as Jesus supposedly implied in their own bible

Hey, what happened to the angry guy?

If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him. --Voltaire

God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. --Voltaire also

I was enjoying this thread a lot more when you guys were fighting irrationally over meaningless semantics.

Hey, what happened to the angry guy?
Gotta be more specific.

If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him. --Voltaire

God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. --Voltaire also
Woohoo! Someone just got on my favourites list!

I was enjoying this thread a lot more when you guys were fighting irrationally over meaningless semantics.
Wouldn't that be the political threads, normally?

Woohoo! Someone just got on my favourites list!

Voltaire's awesome, isn't he? Good to know even in the 17th century there were cynics. Further proof that the world cannot function without us.

Voltaire's awesome, isn't he? Good to know even in the 17th century there were cynics. Further proof that the world cannot function without us.

He was no cynic; the guy was a bloody god. We should have a Voltairic Religion and build grand churches in his honour. We could even make a few bob charging folk half their wages to join

Voltaire's awesome, isn't he? Good to know even in the 17th century there were cynics. Further proof that the world cannot function without us.
Oh yeah he was. Cynicism TRULY an art form with him. Still far and beyond one of the best/greats ... and very few people who DO IT FOR A LIVING could match him, then AND now.

I was enjoying this thread a lot more when you guys were fighting irrationally over meaningless semantics.

Sorry, but on the bright side theres always something to argue about:)

He was no cynic; the guy was a bloody god. We should have a Voltairic Religion and build grand churches in his honour. We could even make a few bob charging folk half their wages to join
Wouldn't he summarily spill from his grave just long enough to burn them to the ground?
I think that, after having died, he wouldn't have to defend your right to the death to build churches in his honour. :D

yeah, I'm hating myself for not reading the Age of Voltaire when it was given to me. I did not realise that I was a cynic at that point in time.

yeah, I'm hating myself for not reading the Age of Voltaire when it was given to me. I did'nt know I was a cynic then.

Actually, I'm reading that book right now. I am doing a presentation in Philosophy on him. The book is absolutely amazing. It gives such a detailed insight to the time period. You deserve to be beaten on the head for passing up an opportunity like that. :headbang:

He was no cynic; the guy was a bloody god. We should have a Voltairic Religion and build grand churches in his honour. We could even make a few bob charging folk half their wages to join

I bet he's turning in his grave at that thought.

But on the other hand, who said we can't exploit the fame of dead people? The Holy Church of Voltaire is officially open for business. Membership is $12.99 per month. Cough up, people. :p

I bet he's turning in his grave at that thought.

But on the other hand, who said we can't exploit the fame of dead people? The Holy Church of Voltaire is officially open for business. Membership is $12.99 per month. Cough up, people. :p
Bill me. The name's ... erm .... George Williams.

Whether Christian Churchs (I wont speak for other churchs) are a sham, depends very much on whether or not Christ was a sham.
If you believe, as I do, in Christ, then you'd probably believe that Christian churchs in general are no sham. I think it's clear from the bible that Jesus would want churchs to be in existence.

Then there's the question of whether you believe these churchs to be good. I think the answer is a resounding yes.
Yes, you always hear about bad things that the members of the church have done, such as the crusades, inquisition, and more recently, the child abuse scandals. These are very bad things, but I would argue that none are a result of the Christian religion. The reason I say this is Christ never advocated aggressively starting wars, executing mass amounts of people, or molesting children. Likewise, you'll never go to any major christian church and see the priest/pastor preaching about doing any of these evils. I belive that had the Catholic Church not ever existed, there'd be a war in place of the crusades, and the priests that molested those children would still have, only not wearing a priest's collar.

Don't believe me? Go to a Catholic Church and you'll see the priest preaching a message of love, and you'll see a welcoming community of people. If you're in an urban area, go down to the soup kitchens, charity houses, houses for abused people, and more often than not, you'll find that they're run by a religious institution. You hear about all the bad things religious people do in the news, but you never see what goes on every day.

And as far as religion being a way of controlling and exploiting people, I ask, who's to gain? Who's doing the exploiting? You can be pretty sure that your local clergy man isn't living the high life. The pope's only power is the power to preach. What does he have to gain by preaching the things he does? The Vatican has a lot of property, but they have little money. And when was the last time you've heard the pope, or local priest, preach something that in any way would help them? You certainly don't become a preacher to be rich or powerful. And to say religion is about controlling people, it makes it sound like people aren't free to choose to be, or not to be religious. In fact, they are.

Bill me. The name's ... erm .... George Williams.

Billed. Welcome to the church. The beer's on the left, the scripture's on the right, and the porn's in the back. Enjoy your time with us.

Billed. Welcome to the church. The beer's on the left, the scripture's on the right, and the porn's in the back. Enjoy your time with us.

Sounds like a church I know:

http://www.subgenius.com/

May you acheive Total Slack.

Billed. Welcome to the church. The beer's on the left, the scripture's on the right, and the porn's in the back. Enjoy your time with us.
What i don't understand is why they're not all within arms reach. :(
Nonetheless, you graciousness is appreciated. *bows*

Sounds like a church I know:

http://www.subgenius.com/

May you acheive Total Slack.
Fnord indeed.

"So, how were YOUR multiple partners today, dear?" :D

Ahhh yes, the the Fnord is all around us, encompassing us, enveloping us. The Foo is there too. Along with the Bar and there is also the Baz.

"All things are true." "Even false things?" "Even false things are true." "How can that be?" "Don't ask me, man, I didn't do it."

Omnia quia sunt, ficta sunt.

Religion is a uniquely human construct. It molds itself to political causes and defames those who would dare to dabble in rational thought.

Hovever, the issue of whether there is a god or not is irrelevent because god's true power is the belief of his followers. God or no god, religion has a profound effect on the world.

The quote from Voltaire is right on the money, religion fills a certain void in the human psyche, a perpetual need for reassureance, an unavoidable yearning for meaning, and the hope that somehow it will all be alright in the end.

This void is almost never left empty, even most atheists fill it up with something; be it science, money, or ambition.

Although religion on an international level may be a money making, power scheming sham, the positive role it plays in the lives of indiviguals is far too great to allow a simple defamation of religion as a whole.

Ahhh yes, the the Fnord is all around us, encompassing us, enveloping us. The Foo is there too. Along with the Bar and there is also the Baz.

"All things are true." "Even false things?" "Even false things are true." "How can that be?" "Don't ask me, man, I didn't do it."

Omnia quia sunt, ficta sunt.
*FLORT*
:D
Hahahaha!

What i don't understand is why they're not all within arms reach. :(
Nonetheless, you graciousness is appreciated. *bows*

come on! get off your lazy ass once in a while. exercise is good for you. we don't want a room full of morbidly obese men as followers

come on! get off your lazy ass once in a while. exercise is good for you. we don't want a room full of morbidly obese men as followers
Oh that's not the reason why at all. It had to do with equitable appreciation, and value. I mean, at home, i keep all those together. Sometimes the scripture is wedged between the pages of porn, and the porn itself has a beer stain or two. Seriously, through my ingurgitation, it's all good. It's how i do it that's the best part. *nods*

As for *obesity* ... not a problem, here's why ..

Bill: My God, what are you doing?
Joan: You weren't supposed to see this.

Bill:Well, now that I'm seeing it, what is it?

Joan:I'm shooting up your bug powder.
You might like to try it yourself ....
Or you might not.

Bill:I ran out in the middle of a job.
You gotta stop using the stuff, Joan.
They ration it out like snakebite serum.

Joan:Well, just do what everybody else does -
cut it with baby laxative.
The roaches will
sh*t themselves to death.
-------

the churchs of today have absolutely zero to do with anything God recognizes as a House of Worship--theyre all pagan institutions started by that shitbag Constantine

the churchs of today have absolutely zero to do with anything God recognizes as a House of Worship--theyre all pagan institutions started by that shitbag Constantine

Keanu Reeves started a church? Whoa!

heathenous

They own 20-25% of all real estate in America(thats without property taxes!)

So they own every 4th or 5th house? I think not. Head down to 7-11 and pick up some common sense. LEts put it another way; if they traded all the church land across america, they could own all of california? how about... NO?

So they own every 4th or 5th house? I think not. Head down to 7-11 and pick up some common sense. LEts put it another way; if they traded all the church land across america, they could own all of california? how about... NO?


Real estate does not equate house. Church property does not equate church. Churches are known as houses/buildings/whatever where you practice religious activities. Now add all the land owned by Jewish religious groups who are not taxed, and every parochial school in this country that isnt taxed. Real estate Is known as private land. I have my common sense. Go pick up some facts.

Just an example:

"A commission on taxation reported to Governor Pinchot of Pennsylvania a few years ago that in the city of Philadelphia, 14.77 percent of the total property was exempt from taxation, and of this 14.25: percent consisted of churches, parochial schools, and buildings for teachers of parochial schools."

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
--Thomas Paine

Who agrees or disagrees?As Jews don't have churches, that doesn't really affect me.
:p

"Exemptions from property taxes represent an even larger benefit to churches there may be as much as $100 billion dollars in untaxed church property in the United States. This creates a problem, according to some, because the tax exemption amounts to a gift of money to the churches at the expense of tax payers. For every dollar which the government cannot collect on church property, it must make up for by collecting it from citizens; thus all citizens are forced to indirectly support churches, even those they do not belong to and may even oppose."

"Even some religious leaders agree that the property tax exemptions are problematic. Eugene Carson Blake, a former head of the National Council of Churches, complained once that tax exemptions ended up putting a greater tax burden on the poor who could least afford it. He feared that one day, the people might turn against their wealthy churches and demand restitution."

As Jews don't have churches, that doesn't really affect me.
:p

Synagogues?

Synagogues?
They aren't called Churches.

Church here is defined as organized religion.
Not a building.

They aren't called Churches.

Another bloody pedant.

Another bloody pedant.
Are you, perhaps, of any relation to Iternerate Tree Dwellers?
Some rival faction of an arboreal community?

Are you, perhaps, of any relation to Iternerate Tree Dwellers?
Some rival faction of an arboreal community?

No we are all happy arboreans over here, no splinter groups or desire to splinter and no enemies within, it's all just sweet coffee, sweaty-sex and peace pipes baby.

Never heard of em

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
--Thomas Paine

Who agrees or disagrees?

shows you how far off the beam so called right wingers have fallen from what america was intended to be.

i believe no coerciveness to be moral, be it economic, idiological or religeous, but rather do believe there are all kinds of things no one knows anything about.

of course it is essential to prevent those unwilling or unable to prevent themselves, from beating each other over the head if i don't want to be beaten over the head myself. and if we want our familiar comfort zones we need the tangable infrastructure they depend upon and for that we need some small modicum of social organization. the trade off being between comfort zone and social organization being the price of it.

beliefs have one useful roll to play, if they will, and limit themselves to playing it, and that is to encourage people to want to avoid causing suffering and harm.

there is no fanatacism however, of any flavour, however well intended, that is not itself harmful.

essentialy i aggree with the tom paine quote. would that the constitution had been fraimed by the intentions that motivated the decleration of indipendence, and not by a transplanted aristocracy covering its own ass.

=^^=
.../\...

No we are all happy arboreans over here, no splinter groups or desire to splinter and no enemies within, it's all just sweet coffee, sweaty-sex and peace pipes baby.

Never heard of em
No splinters, you say? :D

Well, don't be surprised if you get their mail.

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
--Thomas Paine

Who agrees or disagrees?
Agree. I've yet to see an organized Church more interested in the spiritual enlightenment of its members than in controlling them and telling them what to think.

'Course, that doesn't mean such an altruistic, honestly spiritual church doesn't exist: just that I don't know about its existance.