NationStates Jolt Archive

Think again. (http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/14098907.htm)
JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. - An attempt to resume state spending on birth control got shot down Wednesday by House members who argued it would have amounted to an endorsement of promiscuous lifestyles.

Missouri stopped providing money for family planning and certain women's health services when Republicans gained control of both chambers of the Legislature in 2003.

But a Democratic lawmaker, in a little-noticed committee amendment, had successfully inserted language into the proposed budget for the fiscal year starting July 1 that would have allowed part of the $9.2 million intended for "core public health functions" to go to contraception provided through public health clinics.

The House voted 96-59 to delete the funding for contraception and infertility treatments after Rep. Susan Phillips told lawmakers that anti-abortion groups such as Missouri Right to Life were opposed to the spending.

"If you hand out contraception to single women, we're saying promiscuity is OK as a state, and I am not in support of that," Phillips, R-Kansas City, said in an interview.
The anti-consensual sex brigade is really out in force ever since they got their guys on the Supreme Court. First it was South Dakota. Now it's Missouri. Mississippi--which already has some of the most restrictive abortion laws in the country--is working on following South Dakota's lead.

Take the poll.

Still think the abortion debate is about the fetuses?
Yes.

*Ducks*

Hooray flyover country.

Yes.

*Ducks*
Ah. You make me chuckle. Thanks.

I may be dense today, but what does the poll have to do with the article?

I may be dense today, but what does the poll have to do with the article?
Nothing directly, but it seems to me that since Roe is linked to the personal right to privacy (which I believe is inherent in the Constitution, but many on the religious right don't, and since they're in charge...), then the best way to ensure a woman's right to choose is to make a constitutional amendment guaranteeing a personal right to privacy. I was just looking to see what sort of support that would garner around here.

Remember, if you don't tell people about sex or give them protection, they won't have sex. The conservatives said so.

Nothing directly, but it seems to me that since Roe is linked to the personal right to privacy (which I believe is inherent in the Constitution, but many on the religious right don't, and since they're in charge...), then the best way to ensure a woman's right to choose is to make a constitutional amendment guaranteeing a personal right to privacy. I was just looking to see what sort of support that would garner around here.
can you please explain to me what you mean by personal right to privacy? How would things be different than they are now? what are the benifits specifically or such an amendment?

I am really sorry for all the questions, but I am kinda loopy today on allergy meds and don't want to assume facts not in evidence. ;)

oh, and about the article, it doesn't seem fair to me to refuse birth control to "singles only" it seems to be discrimination based on marital status which is against the law for just about everything else (like housing, and employment) you would think it would be against the law for medical care, but my arguement may be very flawed today.

Remember, if you don't tell people about sex or give them protection, they won't have sex. The conservatives said so.
And when they do, and then have lots of kids they can't afford as a result, then you can call them dirty savages who'll never be civilized. And if they die getting illegal abortions, then they deserved it and are burning in hell anyway.

Nothing directly, but it seems to me that since Roe is linked to the personal right to privacy (which I believe is inherent in the Constitution, but many on the religious right don't, and since they're in charge...), then the best way to ensure a woman's right to choose is to make a constitutional amendment guaranteeing a personal right to privacy. I was just looking to see what sort of support that would garner around here.
How could you make something like that legally enforceable though? While few would deny privacy is a right, in any society it is necessary to surrender at least a degree of privacy to the State in order to have Government (they know your personal income, for example, in order to calculate taxes). How could a blunt instrument such as a Constitutional Amendment strike the right balance on the matter?

I think the thread title and question in the poll should be closer to the same. The poll is unrelated to the title.

As to the article, it looks like they also removed the fertility treatment money as well, but that doesn't mean they are anti-family.

Remember, if you don't tell people about sex or give them protection, they won't have sex. The conservatives said so.
That's not exactly fair, funny, but not fair. The locales that have been offering school sex education with a strong abstinence focus since Clinton began them are the same locales that are showing a significant decrease in teen pregnancy rates, perhaps this is more than a coincidence.

How could you make something like that legally enforceable though? While few would deny privacy is a right, in any society it is necessary to surrender at least a degree of privacy to the State in order to have Government (they know your personal income, for example, in order to calculate taxes). How could a blunt instrument such as a Constitutional Amendment strike the right balance on the matter?

You could word it such that the right to privacy is much as it is now - except that people could no longer make the, "Well, it isn't really in the Constitution..." argument.

It would be sort of like having an equal rights amendment. The courts have held that the 14th Amendment, along with the 19th, leads to equal rights for women. However, many argue that it isn't actually in the Constitution. If there were an actual amendment to that effect, the argument would be over.


That's not exactly fair, funny, but not fair. The locales that have been offering school sex education with a strong abstinence focus since Clinton began them are the same locales that are showing a significant decrease in teen pregnancy rates, perhaps this is more than a coincidence.

There is a huge difference between "strong abstinence focus" and "abstinence-only education." Focusing on abstinence does not mean that you don't teach students about contraception or about sex itself. It just means that you focus on abstinence. On the other hand, in abstinence-only classrooms, teachers either act like contraception doesn't exist, or they lie about it.

I think the pro-lifers have launched their attack too early; possibly with unfortunate consequences for their cause.

It's still likely that the supreme court, even in its present form, would vote to uphold Roe if it was forced to rule upon it.

The smarter campaigners have long pursued a 'whittle-down' approach to abortion rights. It appears that a few zealots have decided to declare all-out war prematurely.

...
There is a huge difference between "strong abstinence focus" and "abstinence-only education." Focusing on abstinence does not mean that you don't teach students about contraception or about sex itself. It just means that you focus on abstinence. On the other hand, in abstinence-only classrooms, teachers either act like contraception doesn't exist, or they lie about it.

Which states do an absitnence only sex-education? Certainly not here in MN.

That's not exactly fair, funny, but not fair. The locales that have been offering school sex education with a strong abstinence focus since Clinton began them are the same locales that are showing a significant decrease in teen pregnancy rates, perhaps this is more than a coincidence.

That's interesting. I was under the impression that it was the other way around. What about abortion statistics in those areas?

Have I mentioned how glad I am that I don't live in America?

Have I mentioned how glad I am that I don't live in America?
seconded

Which states do an absitnence only sex-education? Certainly not here in MN.
Which obviously means no states do it.

Which states do an absitnence only sex-education? Certainly not here in MN.

I take you're not aware of the amendment to welfare reform in 1996 that gives federal funding to state progams of abstinence-only sex education. Don't you think that's odd funding something that you imply doesn't exist?

EDIT: I take it you're also not aware that MN is an abstinence-only state and that your department of health released a study in 2004 showing that it was ineffective. Has there been a significant change to the law in the past 15 months that I'm unaware of?

By the way, here is the site for the MN program which actually puts ABSTINENCE-ONLY in the name of the program. And here is the report on the effectiveness of the program on the site for the program. It's an independent study.

http://www.saynotyet.com/pdfs/eval-report/enabl-report98-02.pdf
They said there is no evidence that the program has had any effect at all and that their findings do not build confidence in the program as a whole.

Think again. (http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/14098907.htm)

The anti-consensual sex brigade is really out in force ever since they got their guys on the Supreme Court. First it was South Dakota. Now it's Missouri. Mississippi--which already has some of the most restrictive abortion laws in the country--is working on following South Dakota's lead.

Take the poll.

At last, the cards are on the table.

You are very right. This ultimately stems from our opposition to the increasing moral depravity of this country.

Pornography, Sexual Promiscuity, Homosexuality, Abortion, and Secularism will be the downfall of this nation.

We will not survive the next fifty years at the rate we're going.

At the same time, those on my side of the coin will most certainly destroy our beloved Constitution and deprive us our God-given rights if we pursue any more hotly or rashly than we already are. Both sides at the moment are trains heading full speed to disaster.

Our Freedom has proven to be our undoing.

When a nation abuses the freedom they have been so richly blessed with, they will always wind up losing it.

When a nation seeks to keep itself righteous via restricting freedom, we then also lose our freedom.

I pray every day for the salvation of this nation. That a way will be manifest that we may preserve this country and our freedom.

But we just may be past feeling. God will not be able to provide us with answers, given that we have spurned him the last 50 years. We don't want to listen.

Tis very sad. I love my country, and will fight to the death to preserve her. But I fear that we fight an already lost battle.

At last, the cards are on the table.

You are very right. This ultimately stems from our opposition to the increasing moral depravity of this country.

Pornography, Sexual Promiscuity, Homosexuality, Abortion, and Secularism will be the downfall of this nation.

We will not survive the next fifty years at the rate we're going.

At the same time, those on my side of the coin will most certainly destroy our beloved Constitution and deprive us our God-given rights if we pursue any more hotly or rashly than we already are. Both sides at the moment are trains heading full speed to disaster.

Our Freedom has proven to be our undoing.

When a nation abuses the freedom they have been so richly blessed with, they will always wind up losing it.

When a nation seeks to keep a nation righteous via restricting freedom, we then also lose our freedom.

I pray every day for the salvation of this nation. That a way will be manifest that we may preserve this country and our freedom.

But we just may be past feeling. God will not be able to provide us with answers, given that we have spurned him the last 50 years. We don't want to listen.

Tis very sad. I love my country, and will fight to the death to preserve her. But I fear that we fight an already lost battle.

Ha. I actually laughed at this. How about this? You worry about the plank in your eye. Take care of your family and teach your family as you see fit. Now if the rest of us are headed toward disaster, then it's not your problem. God will provide for you. Jesus said that these things needn't be worried about. Words of his that are so easily overlooked by those that claim that my activities are their concern.

Ha. I actually laughed at this. How about this? You worry about the plank in your eye. Take care of your family and teach your family as you see fit. Now if the rest of us are headed toward disaster, then it's not your problem. God will provide for you. Jesus said that these things needn't be worried about. Words of his that are so easily overlooked by those that claim that my activities are their concern.

Except I could never live with myself if I let the world go to hell in a hen-basket, knowing I could have done something, anything. No matter how small or insignificant.

People like me believe using the capacities we have been given. If there is anything we can do to stop bad things from happening, we will.

God will hold me responsible for every opportunity to do good that I do not take advantage of.

Out of care for my fellow men, and out of concern for my own salvation, I must fight- even the already lost battle.

Have I mentioned how glad I am that I don't live in America?
Not nearly as glad as I am. We have more trolls than we need as it is.

Have I mentioned how glad I am that I don't live in America?

Mutual. I'm very glad YOU don't live in America.

Except I could never live with myself if I let the world go to hell in a hen-basket, knowing I could have done something, anything. No matter how small or insignificant.

People like me believe using the capacities we have been given. If there is anything we can do to stop bad things from happening, we will.

God will hold me responsible for every opportunity to do good that I do not take advantage of.

Out of care for my fellow men, and out of concern for my own salvation, I must fight- even the already lost battle.

God will not hold you accountable for not attempting to legislate out sin. Jesus seemed to be quite a bit against such things. Shall I quote him to you. This is God's world. He lets you live in it. You want to do good and good that won't be small or insignificant. Buy a homeless man/woman/child a meal, or even better give him/her a job. Adopt a child. Be a mentor. Don't be a politician and legislate what you think is morality while violating the rights of everyone else. My faith, my religion, will prosper just fine without you forcing it on anyone. Be an example not a dictator.

Except I could never live with myself if I let the world go to hell in a hen-basket, knowing I could have done something, anything. No matter how small or insignificant.

People like me believe using the capacities we have been given. If there is anything we can do to stop bad things from happening, we will.

God will hold me responsible for every opportunity to do good that I do not take advantage of.

Out of care for my fellow men, and out of concern for my own salvation, I must fight- even the already lost battle.
But you can't do anything. You can only fail -- unless by "do something" you mean plunge the world into endless conflict. Because I say you are wrong and I will never submit to be ruled by your religious beliefs. As far as I am concerned your views are so opposed to mine that, if it comes down to practical applications in law and government, we can only be enemies, and I will never, ever stop resisting your attempts to dominate me as long as I am alive.

What are you going to do about that? Unless you are willing to launch another Inquisition, there's nothing you can do.

Of course, you could always do as Jocabia suggests, which by the way, would probably also be the suggestion of St. Francis, who advocated preaching by the example of one's own life. He's a saint, you know.

That's interesting. I was under the impression that it was the other way around. What about abortion statistics in those areas?

Well from the statistics gathered by the state of Minnesota annual report to the legislature in regards to abortion, we can see that 1) abortion is on an overall decline across the board, and 2) that it is disproportionately an urban phenomenon. Additionally, we can see that young women getting abortions is the most significantly reduced group (since at least the late-nineties) and this began at the time when the abstinence focused sexual education programs were endorsed and signed under the Clinton administration. Even in Hennepin county, the highest populated county in Minnesota, it represents 22% of the state population (as it includes the city of Minneapolis) the county has 39% of the Minnesota residents who get abortions living in it, even there we find a significant decrease in women under 18 getting abortions since the 1999 report (statistics from 1998) decreasing the abortion rate and live birth rate in that age group of inner city girls by an incredible 27%, in less than a decade.

Which obviously means no states do it.

I did not mean to imply anything by it, only that I didn't know which states do it.

God will not hold you accountable for not attempting to legislate out sin. Jesus seemed to be quite a bit against such things. Shall I quote him to you. This is God's world. He lets you live in it. You want to do good and good that won't be small or insignificant. Buy a homeless man/woman/child a meal, or even better give him/her a job. Adopt a child. Be a mentor. Don't be a politician and legislate what you think is morality while violating the rights of everyone else. My faith, my religion, will prosper just fine without you forcing it on anyone. Be an example not a dictator.

You're mostly right. And sometimes I am very dictatorial. I shouldn't be, and it's something I have to work on. I should be a better example.

But there's something you don't understand.

Being a good citizen and a good American are basic tenets of my faith.

My religion has intimate ties with this land, and it is a very big part of it.

America, for me and American members of my Faith, is more than just another land, another chapter in history. It is so much more than that.

In order to understand why, you must also understand my religion.

Otherwise, anything I say will sound confusing or contradictory. It won't make alot of sense.

It's probably a bit of both by now.

I can't understand why people can't keep out of a purely private matter (since when did my or anyone elses sexuality become a public matter? last time I checked it was only between me and my friend that I am ...

... a heterosexual with an american girlfriend).

But seriously, what do other people care if some woman they probably don't know goes over and gets an abortion?

You're mostly right. And sometimes I am very dictatorial. I shouldn't be, and it's something I have to work on. I should be a better example.

But there's something you don't understand.

Being a good citizen and a good American are basic tenets of my faith.

My religion has intimate ties with this land, and it is a very big part of it.

America, for me and American members of my Faith, is more than just another land, another chapter in history. It is so much more than that.

In order to understand why, you must also understand my religion.

Otherwise, anything I say will sound confusing or contradictory. It won't make alot of sense.
But do you understand that even Americans disagree on what it means to be a good citizen and a good American?

Do you also understand that your religion is not every American's religion so, even if it is nationalistic, not every American will be willing to follow it?

I think you are very clear and consistent about yourself. Unfortunately, I think you represent the greatest danger to my country, and you think the same of me. How can we reconcile this? As long as you insist that your way must prevail, then we can't, because I won't accept that.

So your only choice is to initiate conflict or else find a different way to do what you think your god wants you to.

It's probably a bit of both by now.

I can't understand why people can't keep out of a purely private matter (since when did my or anyone elses sexuality become a public matter? last time I checked it was only between me and my friend that I am ...

... a heterosexual with an american girlfriend).

But seriously, what do other people care if some woman they probably don't know goes over and gets an abortion?

Why do I care if some guy 6000 miles away blows up a building?

Why do I care if some child was molested in the next state?

Why do I care if my neighbor dies?

"...[Society] is universal, so are all her actions; all that she does belongs to all.
When she baptizes a child, that action concerns me; for that child is thereby connected to that body which is my head too, and ingrafted into that body whereof I am a member.
And when she buries a man, that action concerns me: all mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated; God employs several translators; some pieces are translated by age, some by sickness, some by war, some by justice; but God's hand is in every translation, and his hand shall bind up all our scattered leaves again for that library where every book shall lie open to one another.
As therefore the bell that rings to a sermon calls not upon the preacher only, but upon the congregation to come, so this bell calls us all; but how much more me, who am brought so near the door by this sickness.
There was a contention as far as a suit (in which both piety and dignity, religion and estimation, were mingled), which of the religious orders should ring to prayers first in the morning; and it was determined, that they should ring first that rose earliest.
If we understand aright the dignity of this bell that tolls for our evening prayer, we would be glad to make it ours by rising early, in that application, that it might be ours as well as his, whose indeed it is.
The bell doth toll for him that thinks it doth; and though it intermit again, yet from that minute that this occasion wrought upon him, he is united to God.
Who casts not up his eye to the sun when it rises? but who takes off his eye from a comet when that breaks out? Who bends not his ear to any bell which upon any occasion rings? but who can remove it from that bell which is passing a piece of himself out of this world?
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Neither can we call this a begging of misery, or a borrowing of misery, as though we were not miserable enough of ourselves, but must fetch in more from the next house, in taking upon us the misery of our neighbours.
Truly it were an excusable covetousness if we did, for affliction is a treasure, and scarce any man hath enough of it.
No man hath affliction enough that is not matured and ripened by it, and made fit for God by that affliction.
If a man carry treasure in bullion, or in a wedge of gold, and have none coined into current money, his treasure will not defray him as he travels.
Tribulation is treasure in the nature of it, but it is not current money in the use of it, except we get nearer and nearer our home, heaven, by it.
Another man may be sick too, and sick to death, and this affliction may lie in his bowels, as gold in a mine, and be of no use to him; but this bell, that tells me of his affliction, digs out and applies that gold to me: if by this consideration of another's danger I take mine own into contemplation, and so secure myself, by making my recourse to my God, who is our only security.

It's probably a bit of both by now.

I can't understand why people can't keep out of a purely private matter (since when did my or anyone elses sexuality become a public matter? last time I checked it was only between me and my friend that I am ...

... a heterosexual with an american girlfriend).

But seriously, what do other people care if some woman they probably don't know goes over and gets an abortion?
You don't understand -- they think female sexuality is somehow magical.

As long as cards are being shown, maybe it's time to just lay this out:

There is a school of religious thought, popular among fundamentalists, that holds that women are responsible, through Eve, for original sin. It says that all women carry this guilt just as if they were Eve herself and that we must submit to a lesser status in society -- we must not have personal freedom, must submit to male authority, must not be allowed to escape pregnancy or even pain in pregnancy -- all as the ongoing, never-ending punishment for that original lapse in judgment (which, btw, I think was a set-up). The only route to salvation for women is to be "vessels" that god uses to put more people into the world, so anything a woman does to control her own reproductive life is a rebellion against god that continues the stain of original sin on all of humanity.

Get it now? This notion is behind every anti-abortion argument that focuses on women being obliged to be pregnant because they chose to have sex; every argument that rape victims were asking for it by partying or going out alone; and the present argument that birth control promotes sluttishness.

These are the people we're dealing with.

Which states do an absitnence only sex-education? Certainly not here in MN.

It's more of a county-by-county thing than a state-by-state thing. I haven't seen any research at all done into "emphasizing abstinence", but those schools that have gone to abstinence-only eduction, downplaying or completely cutting out any talks on contraception and safe sex, have a tendency to see more teen STDs and pregnancies, as well as more teens engaging in non-vaginal sex acts that they think "don't count."

Well from the statistics gathered by the state of Minnesota annual report to the legislature in regards to abortion, we can see that 1) abortion is on an overall decline across the board, and 2) that it is disproportionately an urban phenomenon. Additionally, we can see that young women getting abortions is the most significantly reduced group (since at least the late-nineties) and this began at the time when the abstinence focused sexual education programs were endorsed and signed under the Clinton administration. Even in Hennepin county, the highest populated county in Minnesota, it represents 22% of the state population (as it includes the city of Minneapolis) the county has 39% of the Minnesota residents who get abortions living in it, even there we find a significant decrease in women under 18 getting abortions since the 1999 report (statistics from 1998) decreasing the abortion rate and live birth rate in that age group of inner city girls by an incredible 27%, in less than a decade.

I did not mean to imply anything by it, only that I didn't know which states do it.

And you claimed Minnesota doesn't. Minnesota does.

Replying to your points, when did the decline in teenage pregnancy begin, my friend? Quick hint: It was before Clinton even entered office and quite a bit before 1996. The peak was in 1990. Your claims are disingenuous. You credit a policy for the decline that began before the policy. It's a sad bit of molesting of information.

You were also molesting information when you suggested that you support abstinence-focused information rather than abstinence-only education. Clinton's policy requires states not to teach to mandate education on birth control or they lose federal funding. The study by the very people conducting your state's abstinence-only education found that there is no evidence leading to the belief that abstinence-only education works and that same study suggested including contraception education in order to be more effecting. The department of health in your state recommends contraception education but doesn't know how to do so without losing federal funding.

Hey, hold whatever belief you want, but this crap where you molest information is tiresome.

You're mostly right. And sometimes I am very dictatorial. I shouldn't be, and it's something I have to work on. I should be a better example.

But there's something you don't understand.

Being a good citizen and a good American are basic tenets of my faith.

My religion has intimate ties with this land, and it is a very big part of it.

America, for me and American members of my Faith, is more than just another land, another chapter in history. It is so much more than that.

In order to understand why, you must also understand my religion.

Otherwise, anything I say will sound confusing or contradictory. It won't make alot of sense.

I follow the dictates of Christ. If you don't, then you're right. I don't understand. Dictatorial and Christ do not mix.

Why do I care if some guy 6000 miles away blows up a building?

Why do I care if some child was molested in the next state?

Why do I care if my neighbor dies?

"...[Society] is universal, so are all her actions; all that she does belongs to all.
When she baptizes a child, that action concerns me; for that child is thereby connected to that body which is my head too, and ingrafted into that body whereof I am a member.
And when she buries a man, that action concerns me: all mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated; God employs several translators; some pieces are translated by age, some by sickness, some by war, some by justice; but God's hand is in every translation, and his hand shall bind up all our scattered leaves again for that library where every book shall lie open to one another.
As therefore the bell that rings to a sermon calls not upon the preacher only, but upon the congregation to come, so this bell calls us all; but how much more me, who am brought so near the door by this sickness.
There was a contention as far as a suit (in which both piety and dignity, religion and estimation, were mingled), which of the religious orders should ring to prayers first in the morning; and it was determined, that they should ring first that rose earliest.
If we understand aright the dignity of this bell that tolls for our evening prayer, we would be glad to make it ours by rising early, in that application, that it might be ours as well as his, whose indeed it is.
The bell doth toll for him that thinks it doth; and though it intermit again, yet from that minute that this occasion wrought upon him, he is united to God.
Who casts not up his eye to the sun when it rises? but who takes off his eye from a comet when that breaks out? Who bends not his ear to any bell which upon any occasion rings? but who can remove it from that bell which is passing a piece of himself out of this world?
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Neither can we call this a begging of misery, or a borrowing of misery, as though we were not miserable enough of ourselves, but must fetch in more from the next house, in taking upon us the misery of our neighbours.
Truly it were an excusable covetousness if we did, for affliction is a treasure, and scarce any man hath enough of it.
No man hath affliction enough that is not matured and ripened by it, and made fit for God by that affliction.
If a man carry treasure in bullion, or in a wedge of gold, and have none coined into current money, his treasure will not defray him as he travels.
Tribulation is treasure in the nature of it, but it is not current money in the use of it, except we get nearer and nearer our home, heaven, by it.
Another man may be sick too, and sick to death, and this affliction may lie in his bowels, as gold in a mine, and be of no use to him; but this bell, that tells me of his affliction, digs out and applies that gold to me: if by this consideration of another's danger I take mine own into contemplation, and so secure myself, by making my recourse to my God, who is our only security.

This is disingenuous. You mentioned two things that are illegal and objected to by people of your faith and nearly all people not of your faith. The third is also something people care about. Homosexuality, for example, is not killing people. It's a part of their life that is none of your business. What people do in their own lives is none of your business. Work on your own plank, friend.

It's more of a county-by-county thing than a state-by-state thing. I haven't seen any research at all done into "emphasizing abstinence", but those schools that have gone to abstinence-only eduction, downplaying or completely cutting out any talks on contraception and safe sex, have a tendency to see more teen STDs and pregnancies, as well as more teens engaging in non-vaginal sex acts that they think "don't count."

Actually, many states do have abstinence-only education including his. The states mandate such education because otherwise funding is denied. Some districts choose to ignore that mandate and teach about contraception anyway and the state looks the other way. However, many states are abstinence-only states because they are blackmailed to be so.

It kills me that the liberal hero Clinton was actively passing laws to force religious views down the throats of Americans. He made one of the most blatant violations to the US Constitution I've ever seen in order to allow states to discriminate against homosexuals and he passed abstinence-only legislation that keeps people's head in the sand about what is really going on in the world.

Pornography, Sexual Promiscuity, Homosexuality, Abortion, and Secularism will be the downfall of this nation.

We will not survive the next fifty years at the rate we're going.

Bring it on! I say any nation founded on theocracy, prudism, and submission to authority needs to go.

Why do I care if some guy 6000 miles away blows up a building?

Why do I care if some child was molested in the next state?

Why do I care if my neighbor dies?

Notice that these things all affect other people directly. The guy blowing up a building has harmed others. The child molester obviously has.

How does what I do or do not do with my fiance affect you?

Why do I care if some guy 6000 miles away blows up a building?
But how much do you care? Life prioritizes itself, you know, and the farther away the disaster and the more unknown the strangers, the less personally we care compared to how we feel about those immediately around us. For instance, you care very much about establishing rules that you approve for the whole nation to follow, but I don't think you care much about whether other people want you to or not. You care enough to tell us what to do, but not enough to ask us what we need. Thanks.

Why do I care if some child was molested in the next state?
Happens every day, unfortunately. What do you do about it, aside from pray? (And please do keep up the prayers, if you think it helps.)

Why do I care if my neighbor dies?
Perhaps we're not so different. I, for instance, "would be very upset to hear that my neighbor's children had been eaten by wolves." Did you spend much time telling your neighbor what do while he was alive?

"<snip for length>... and so secure myself, by making my recourse to my God, who is our only security.
Your god. Your security.

Pretty color, btw, but not as easy to read as plain old black.

It's things like this (aguing, debating, trying to make what I say make sense unsuccessfully) that make me want to quit and go home.

I've never been very good at speaking my thoughts. It makes perfect sense in here (taps head) but when I try to tell others, It's almost like there isn't even a way PHYSICALLY to say it. It's down near impossible.

I wish I was given that gift, but I don't always have it. I understand where your side comes from. I really do.

But it's hard to get you guys to see where I come from.

It's not that I'm disengenuine, or that I don't have any validity. It's just that I'm not good at expressing my views in a rational and understandable way.
Because of my flaws, I come off sounding irrational, dictatorial, mean, and insensitive. But it's not because I am.

(did any of that make sense?)

The amusing part is that they claim that teenage pregnancy is due to a decline in morals. Nudity and homosexuality and sexual freedom are all causing young people to run loose and free and get pregnant. Let's look at a country where nudity, homosexuality and sexual freedom are so prominent that they put it in there immigration video (which, by the way, I disagree with), the Netherlands. Certainly, the Netherlands must be crawling with teenaged moms since they are so 'depraved', yeah? They have the lowest teenage birth rate in the world. 8 times lower than that of US currently. Of course, they teach a comprehensive and age appropriate sex education course from the earliest entry into school. They make sure that people understand their bodies and the most effective ways to protect it under all circumstances. By the way, if someone wants to argue that abortions are how they keep the birth rate low among teens, you should look at the abortion rates and the pregnancy rates as well. They are both lower than that of the US (pregnancy 9 times lower and abortion rate 3 times lower). Considering the ridiculous claims of the religious right, it should be the other way around, no?

http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/PUBLICATIONS/factsheet/fsest.htm

It's more of a county-by-county thing than a state-by-state thing. I haven't seen any research at all done into "emphasizing abstinence", but those schools that have gone to abstinence-only eduction, downplaying or completely cutting out any talks on contraception and safe sex, have a tendency to see more teen STDs and pregnancies, as well as more teens engaging in non-vaginal sex acts that they think "don't count."

One has to be careful to compare self described 'abstinence only' education courses as the title itself does not mean that contreceptives are not taught.

We need to compare subject matter courses and be careful not to be misled into thinking a course is one thing because of it's title when in reality it is something else. "Abstinence Only" does not actually mean no contreceptive use education. Minnesota is an abstinence promoting state, we combine school and community training in our efforts.

In conclusion, little was known about effective prevention programs when MN ENABL was first designed. More is known now, and effective models have been replicated. As reported by Kirby (2001), “Effective programs shared two common attributes: (1) being clearly focused on sexual behavior and contraceptive use, and (2) delivering a clear message about abstaining from sex as the safest choice for teens and using protection against STDs and pregnancy if a teen is sexually active.” Based on reports from the Alan Guttmacher Institute (2002), we also know that about one-quarter of the drop in teen pregnancy rates in the last decade can be attributed to abstinence (students who have never had sex), and three-quarters to greater use of contraception (and more effective contraception) by sexually active teens.
link (http://www.saynotyet.com/pdfs/eval-report/enabl-report98-02.pdf) (WARNING .pdf file)

But how much do you care? Life prioritizes itself, you know, and the farther away the disaster and the more unknown the strangers, the less personally we care compared to how we feel about those immediately around us. For instance, you care very much about establishing rules that you approve for the whole nation to follow, but I don't think you care much about whether other people want you to or not. You care enough to tell us what to do, but not enough to ask us what we need. Thanks.


Happens every day, unfortunately. What do you do about it, aside from pray? (And please do keep up the prayers, if you think it helps.)


Perhaps we're not so different. I, for instance, "would be very upset to hear that my neighbor's children had been eaten by wolves." Did you spend much time telling your neighbor what do while he was alive?


Your god. Your security.

Pretty color, btw, but not as easy to read as plain old black.

Hence, the fallibility and finite understanding of humanity. I find myself pondering such things often.

I think deeply alot. I try to make sense, try to find the answer. But it always seems to elude me.
And the best I can ultimately do, is trust in the Lord, and live my life right, and trust that he will one day correct and resolve all conflict and ills.

To put it shortly, trust in Christ's Atonement.

One has to be careful to compare self described 'abstinence only' education courses as the title itself does not mean that contreceptives are not taught.

We need to compare subject matter courses and be careful not to be misled into thinking a course is one thing because of it's title when in reality it is something else. "Abstinence Only" does not actually mean no contreceptive use education. Minnesota is an abstinence promoting state, we combine school and community training in our efforts.


link (http://www.saynotyet.com/pdfs/eval-report/enabl-report98-02.pdf) (WARNING .pdf file)

Quick, can you find the information about contraception on that site? It is the site that sets the policies?

Seriously, did you read that PDF, I linked to it earlier by the way? What you quoted is a description of effective programs not the program that MN follows. Minnesota has no state policy that requires education on contraception. None.

http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/publications/stateevaluations/index.htm
Since 1991, rates of teenage pregnancy and birth have declined significantly in the United States. These are welcome trends. Yet, teens in the United States continue to suffer from the highest birth rate and one of the highest rates of sexually transmitted infections (STIs) in the industrialized world. Debate over the best way to help teens avoid, or reduce, their sexual risk-taking behavior has polarized many youth-serving professionals. On one side are those that support comprehensive sex education—education that promotes abstinence but includes information about contraception and condoms to build young people's knowledge, attitudes and skills for when they do become sexually active. On the other side are those that favor abstinence-only-until-marriage—programs that promote "abstinence from sexual activity outside marriage as the expected standard"[1] of behavior. Proponents of abstinence-only programs believe that providing information about the health benefits of condoms or contraception contradicts their message of abstinence-only and undermines its impact. As such, abstinence-only programs provide no information about contraception beyond failure rates.

http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/publications/stateevaluations/minnesota.htm
The goal of MN ENABL was to reduce adolescent pregnancy by decreasing the number of adolescents who engage in sexual activity and by promoting abstinence-until marriage. The program was based on the curriculum Postponing Sexual Involvement (without the contraceptive information included in the original program) and included: the curriculum promoting abstinence-only; community organizing activities, including community forums to promote abstinence and youth development, informal presentations, and networking; and statewide and local media campaigns.[16]

Significant Quotes from Authors of the Evaluation Study:

There is concern about the ability of the initiative to reach students and families of color. The profile of the core group members over
the years was predominately female (85%) and White (89%).[16] [p. 10]
It is noteworthy that Minnesota has among the lowest rates of Caucasian teen pregnancy in the nation, but the highest rates for African
American, American Indian and Hispanic populations.[16] [p. 10]
The weaknesses that surfaced in the evaluation results reported here were not due to treatment implementation failure, but to the
constraints of the treatment itself.[16] [p. 10]
Based on the findings it appears that a comprehensive approach provides the most promising prevention of teen pregnancies and
STDs.[16] [p. 10]

Note: The page numbers are from the PDF linked at the top of their page.

Hence, the fallibility and finite understanding of humanity. I find myself pondering such things often.

I think deeply alot. I try to make sense, try to find the answer. But it always seems to elude me.
And the best I can ultimately do, is trust in the Lord, and live my life right, and trust that he will one day correct and resolve all conflict and ills.

To put it shortly, trust in Christ's Atonement.
I'm glad to hear it. I don't worship your god, but my faith in humanity is buoyed by every instance of people actually taking time out to think for themselves about difficult things.

And since you do trust in your lord that he can correct and resolve all conflict and ills, does that mean you don't really intend to rush out right now and do it for him?

I'm glad to hear it. I don't worship your god, but my faith in humanity is buoyed by every instance of people actually taking time out to think for themselves about difficult things.

And since you do trust in your lord that he can correct and resolve all conflict and ills, does that mean you don't really intend to rush out right now and do it for him?
How can anyone rush to do anything they admit to not understanding?
I mean in theory... I know in practice, it's done all the time.

Except I could never live with myself if I let the world go to hell in a hen-basket, knowing I could have done something, anything. No matter how small or insignificant.

People like me believe using the capacities we have been given. If there is anything we can do to stop bad things from happening, we will.

God will hold me responsible for every opportunity to do good that I do not take advantage of.

Out of care for my fellow men, and out of concern for my own salvation, I must fight- even the already lost battle.

Your religious beliefs are different from mine. I say God is so large that us puny humans don't have a chance in Hell of understanding what all he is about or what his plans for everyone is. Shoot - most people that I've met can't seem to figure out what He wants for them!

Imposing your interpretation of God on other people and judging them violates some of my basic beliefs of Christianity. You either bring God down to your level when you state unequivically right, wrong, and what he wants for everyone; or you inflate your ego and place yourself in his seat. Evangelism is a dangerous thing; telling others your interpretation of God is fine, but don't make the mistake of thinking that's all there is to Him.

I...But seriously, what do other people care if some woman they probably don't know goes over and gets an abortion?

Because if you make your mind jump through hoops while reading the Bible in such a way that it treats fetuses as full fledged humans, or you consider a hunk of cells with no brain, no awareness, no emotion, no arms, etc as a full human, then it's murder and needs to be outlawed.

(Nb, I don't believe those arguments myself)

Quick, can you find the information about contraception on that site? It is the site that sets the policies?

Seriously, did you read that PDF, I linked to it earlier by the way? What you quoted is a description of effective programs not the program that MN follows. Minnesota has no state policy that requires education on contraception. None.

As such, abstinence-only programs provide no information about contraception beyond failure rates.

And the problem is, that they usually exaggerate the numbers to the point that those who do decide to have sex think that all contraception is virtually useless, and just don't use it.

Not to mention that they don't discuss non-vaginal sex at all (usually), so you end up with teens who think that oral and anal "don't count" and are "safer".

And the problem is, that they usually exaggerate the numbers to the point that those who do decide to have sex think that all contraception is virtually useless, and just don't use it.

Not to mention that they don't discuss non-vaginal sex at all (usually), so you end up with teens who think that oral and anal "don't count" and are "safer".

Yes, and they deliberately skew the facts.

Something like this.

"Many STI's are incurable, like AIDS and herpes."
"Contraception of any kind cannot always prevent STI's."
"1 in 4 sexually active people contracts a STI."

And they, oh, my dear God, I'm going to get an incurable STI even if I use a condom. Or that is what they are supposed to think. What they actually think is, meh, why should wear an uncomfortable condom when it doesn't make any difference anyway?

I'm glad to hear it. I don't worship your god, but my faith in humanity is buoyed by every instance of people actually taking time out to think for themselves about difficult things.

And since you do trust in your lord that he can correct and resolve all conflict and ills, does that mean you don't really intend to rush out right now and do it for him?

No. I do intend to fight the good fight.

Our Master told us to use our time and means wisely and for the advancement of good. If we can accomplish something, we are obligated to do so.

"He that must be commanded in all things; the same is a slothful servant."

No. I do intend to fight the good fight.

Our Master told us to use our time and means wisely and for the advancement of good. If we can accomplish something, we are obligated to do so.

"He that must be commanded in all things; the same is a slothful servant."

He also spoke about the fallacy of pride. What makes you think enforcing your particular views is what He wants? He left us a guidebook and a guide, let us find our own way.

He also spoke about the fallacy of pride. What makes you think enforcing your particular views is what He wants? He left us a guidebook and a guide, let us find our own way.

It is possible to "fight the good fight" without being prideful.

It is possible to "fight the good fight" without being prideful.

The good fight is to provide for others and to perform charity, not to enforce your version of morality on them. The direction your judgement on morality should face is very clear in the words of the Savior. That direction is inward. Fight the good fight. Be an example. A beacon of goodness. Raise decent, law-abiding, loving children who go out of their way to help make the lives of others brighter. Give food to the hungry. Give aid to the infirm. Bring happiness to the depressed. Show kindness when all others have shown contempt. Give shelter to the homeless. Be an example in all ways. That is the only 'good fight' you are qualified to perform.

The good fight is to provide for others and to perform charity, not to enforce your version of morality on them. The direction your judgement on morality should face is very clear in the words of the Savior. That direction is inward. Fight the good fight. Be an example. A beacon of goodness. Raise decent, law-abiding, loving children who go out of their way to help make the lives of others brighter. Give food to the hungry. Give aid to the infirm. Bring happiness to the depressed. Show kindness when all others have shown contempt. Give shelter to the homeless. Be an example in all ways. That is the only 'good fight' you are qualified to perform.

You know, it's so nice to have someone that can have a level headed discussion on religion.

It's even more nice to talk with someone who understands their faith.

And it's also nice to have someone who encourages me to live up to what I have been taught.

It has been a pleasure. I thank you. May God hold you in the hollow of His hand.

You know, it's so nice to have someone that can have a level headed discussion on religion.

It's even more nice to talk with someone who understands their faith.

And it's also nice to have someone who encourages me to live up to what I have been taught.

It has been a pleasure. I thank you. May God hold you in the hollow of His hand.

May He hold us all.